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Speaker 1: What do you know about Rosemary Kennedy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I associate her with lobotomies.

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Speaker 3: That is unfortunately the most top of mine thoughts, which

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Speaker 3: is of itself very tragic. And I honestly I also

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Speaker 3: think of RFK Junior in sort of their family's relationship

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Speaker 3: or lack thereof, with modern medicine, and sort of I

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Speaker 3: see him as a legacy of you know, I was

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Speaker 3: raised in a Catholic family.

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Speaker 2: You know, we all know that there are families that

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Speaker 2: have mental illness or different mental and physical disabilities that

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Speaker 2: instead of dealing with it historically, we've you know, forced

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Speaker 2: these people into institutions or into treatment.

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Speaker 3: And again, I don't know as much.

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Speaker 2: About her as a person, but I guess i'd think

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Speaker 2: of her story as part of the many tragedies of

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Speaker 2: the Kennedy family.

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Speaker 4: I'm George Saveres, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United

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Speaker 4: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with

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Speaker 4: the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect

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Speaker 4: of the Kennedy story, and today we're talking about Rosemary Kennedy.

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Speaker 1: She was the first daughter born to Joe and Rose.

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Speaker 1: Her fate was one of the great shames of the

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Speaker 1: Kennedy family, although it's not as well known today as

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Speaker 1: we thought.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, her story was originally hidden by the family, and

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Speaker 4: it took years for even her siblings to know the

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Speaker 4: truth about what really happened to her.

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Speaker 1: In short, Rosemary experienced developmental difficulties as a child. She

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Speaker 1: had trouble keeping up in school. The exact nature of

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Speaker 1: her disabilities is contested and obviously tied up with the

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Speaker 1: biases of her time. But when she was twenty three

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Speaker 1: years old, her father arranged to have her lobotomized.

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Speaker 4: Now we're going to explain what a lobotomy entailed at

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Speaker 4: the time in some detail, and it is pretty gruesome,

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Speaker 4: so fair warning.

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Speaker 1: So in a lobotomy, the patient is sedated but awake.

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Speaker 1: Surgeons cut through their skull to the brain tissue and

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Speaker 1: using an instrument, and this is the most common description

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Speaker 1: of the instrument, an ice pick like tool is used

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Speaker 1: to cut connections between the prefrontal cortex and the rest

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Speaker 1: of the brain. While this is happening, the patient is

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Speaker 1: asked to recite something memorized or count backwards. In Rosemary's case,

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Speaker 1: they cut until she could no longer speak.

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Speaker 4: So after the lobotomy. Rosemary was left pretty much incapacitated,

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Speaker 4: and she was institutionalized almost immediately and lived in various

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Speaker 4: psychiatric facilities for decades.

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Speaker 1: Today, to discuss Rosemary and her life and the Kennedy family,

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Speaker 1: were joined by historian Kate Clifford Larson, author of Rosemary

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Speaker 1: the Hidden Kennedy Daughter. Kate, thanks for being here, Thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me. It's great to be here. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about Rosemary Kennedy today. We were wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: what was it about Rosemary or about her story that

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Speaker 1: got you interested.

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Speaker 5: Well, I grew up in New England and grew up

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Speaker 5: knowing about the Kennedys and everything they did and didn't

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Speaker 5: do and things like that. And when I became a

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Speaker 5: historian and started writing about women, American women, I was

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Speaker 5: always kind of hyper alert for women that we didn't

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Speaker 5: know much about. And in two thousand and five, Rosemary died.

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Speaker 5: Two thousand and six, Rosemary died, and there was a

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Speaker 5: beautiful little obituary in the Boston Globe. I live in Massachusetts,

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Speaker 5: and I read the obituary, and of course I had

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Speaker 5: known about Rosemary, but I didn't really know her. And

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Speaker 5: it was a beautiful picture, and I thought, Oh, such

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Speaker 5: a sad story. You know. I wondered what really happened

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Speaker 5: to her. I was working on another book at the time,

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Speaker 5: but I thought to myself, well, the JFK Library is

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Speaker 5: right here. When I'm done with this book project, I

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Speaker 5: will go to the library and see what I can find.

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Speaker 5: Maybe I'll write an article for the Boston Globe magazine

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Speaker 5: about her. Because I didn't imagine there would be much.

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Speaker 5: So in two thousand and eight, I was finally ready

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Speaker 5: to go and look, and lo and behold, when I arrived,

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Speaker 5: the library had started opening up Rose Kennedy's diaries and

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Speaker 5: journals and letters. Rose was the mother, the matriarch of

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Speaker 5: the family, and so I was shocked and surprised and

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Speaker 5: deeply moved. And I decided then that I would try

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Speaker 5: to write a book. I knew that there was enough

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Speaker 5: materials there to do it, and it took me six years.

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Speaker 5: There were bumps along the way, but over those six years,

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Speaker 5: more information, more archival material was opened up with the library,

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Speaker 5: which opened up more of the story for me. And

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Speaker 5: so finally the book came out in twenty fifteen, and

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Speaker 5: it was quite a journey, and I Rosemary was very

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Speaker 5: special and I have lots of feelings and opinions about

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Speaker 5: the family, and maybe we can get into that. But

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Speaker 5: she was a lovely, lovely young woman born at the

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Speaker 5: wrong time, and this is what happened to her because

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Speaker 5: of when she was.

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Speaker 4: Born when you started doing the research. Obviously there are

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Speaker 4: archival things that were helpful, and there's primary sources, but

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Speaker 4: what was the general public's view of who Rosemary Kennedy

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Speaker 4: was and what was the general public knowledge about her?

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's one of the things that is very

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Speaker 4: fascinating about this whole thing is despite people's obsession with

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Speaker 4: the Kennedy family, there is this or there was, I

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Speaker 4: think until you know your book, and until some things

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Speaker 4: that have come out since then, there was this real

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Speaker 4: kind of denial about this specific element of the Kennedy story. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, growing up in New England, knowing people that

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Speaker 4: were in that milieu, what was the general knowledge in

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Speaker 4: the public.

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Speaker 5: Like, So it was knowledge that had evolved over time

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Speaker 5: because the family kept its secret for twenty years and

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Speaker 5: then when Jack Kennedy became president, Eunice pushed him to

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Speaker 5: make it more public that Rosemary they didn't talk about

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Speaker 5: the lobotomy, but they made her story a little bit

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Speaker 5: more public and that she was living in an institution

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Speaker 5: in Wisconsin, and then that evolved. In the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 5: and nineteen eighties, more of the story was exposed. I

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Speaker 5: think Darris Kerns Goodwin actually really exposed a lot of

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Speaker 5: the story about Rosemary having the lobotomy. Part of the

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Speaker 5: issue was that rose and Joe kept it a secret

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Speaker 5: from the kids for twenty years or in almost twenty years,

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Speaker 5: so they didn't even know the details themselves until finally

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Speaker 5: they made the effort to find out what happened to her,

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Speaker 5: and that was an emotional, I would imagine, a mootional

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Speaker 5: journey for many of them. And because they were public

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Speaker 5: people and they were into politics and social work, they

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Speaker 5: needed to find a way forward to make a difference

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Speaker 5: in the world because of what happened to their sister.

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Speaker 5: So for me, that was the part of the story

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Speaker 5: that I was not aware of. The family's journey above

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Speaker 5: and beyond telling stories about Rosemary as a little girl,

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Speaker 5: et cetera, but the journey of the family to come

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Speaker 5: to the point where they knew they had to tell

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Speaker 5: the truth and make a difference for Rosemary.

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Speaker 1: And for people like her and other families, that's something

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Speaker 1: that I'm very confused about how that worked. You know

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Speaker 1: that they spent twenty years, really I guess not communicating

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Speaker 1: with her. I assume the siblings, and I think my

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Speaker 1: understanding of it is that their family dynamics were that

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Speaker 1: if Joe said this is so, then that's it, and

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Speaker 1: nobody was question him or pushing him. But twenty years

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Speaker 1: is such a long time, and they're growing up, they

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Speaker 1: are adults. It's just I don't know if you know,

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Speaker 1: if there was communication or the siblings thought they were

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Speaker 1: communicating with her, so.

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Speaker 5: They were not communicating with her. I know that the

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Speaker 5: three oldest Joe, Junior, Jack, and Kick, were aware of

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Speaker 5: something had happened to Rosemary. I'm not sure. Well. I

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Speaker 5: think Kick must have figured out that it was a

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Speaker 5: lobotomy because her mother had asked her to look into

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Speaker 5: these two doctors in Washington, d c. Who ended up

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Speaker 5: performing the surgery, and Kick was against anything that those

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Speaker 5: doctors were doing. So once Rosemary had surgery and then

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Speaker 5: she disappears from the family, I'm sure that Kick figured out, oh,

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Speaker 5: this is what happened. She must have told her older brothers.

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Speaker 5: There are a couple of letters in the Kennedy Library

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Speaker 5: where Joe is communicating with the three of them and

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Speaker 5: reporting that Rosemary's doing very well. At that point she

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Speaker 5: was at a different facility outside of New York City

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Speaker 5: and that she was swimming every day and doing fine,

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Speaker 5: which was a complete lie, which made me realize that

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Speaker 5: they did not actually physically see her. And then there's

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Speaker 5: World War Two, the boys go off to Ward, Joe

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Speaker 5: is killed, Kick has a break with the family anyway,

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Speaker 5: because she stays in England and marries an Englishman. He dies,

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Speaker 5: and she stays there in England, a strange from her family,

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Speaker 5: and then she dies in the late nineteen forties. So

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Speaker 5: there's a lot of trauma in the family at the time,

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Speaker 5: and so I think that Rosemary sort of took a

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Speaker 5: back seat to anything that the kids were thinking about

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Speaker 5: and doing. I believe it was Eunice who probably really

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Speaker 5: pushed because she was the closest to Rosemary growing up.

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Speaker 5: She sort of was the younger sister who kind of

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Speaker 5: helped Rosemary do everything and helped guide her. So I

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Speaker 5: think Eunice figured it out and did see her. We

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Speaker 5: don't have the record from the institution in Wisconsin where

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Speaker 5: she was kept. But I think that Eunice knew, and

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Speaker 5: eventually she became confident enough to tell her siblings. I

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Speaker 5: know that Jack visited her when he was thinking of

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Speaker 5: running for the president in nineteen fifty eight, and he

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Speaker 5: visited her, and from what I saw in the archives,

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Speaker 5: he was shocked and profoundly affected by what he saw.

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Speaker 5: So he was easy for Eunice to kind of work

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Speaker 5: with once he got elected to pass legislation to make

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Speaker 5: a difference for mothers and children and mental health issues, etc.

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Speaker 5: So the kids were activated because of what happened to

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Speaker 5: their sister.

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Speaker 4: Just to back up for a second and take it

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Speaker 4: like from the very beginning, I'm wondering if you can

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Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about Rosemary's childhood and sort

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Speaker 4: of when the family became aware that she might have

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Speaker 4: special needs, that she might have intellectual disabilities, and how

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Speaker 4: Rose and Joe, her mother and father, reacted to that

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Speaker 4: and how that affected their relationship with her.

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Speaker 5: So it's really an interesting timeline, and it also reflects

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Speaker 5: the time period in which Rose and Joe started their

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Speaker 5: family and were having children.

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Speaker 4: So she was.

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Speaker 5: Born in nineteen eighteen in September, and according to Rose

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Speaker 5: an interview with Rose, her birth was very difficult, not

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Speaker 5: the birth itself. It was at home and there was

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Speaker 5: a doctor, Frederick Good, who was supposed to arrive to

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Speaker 5: deliver Rosemary, but he was delayed at nearby hospitals because

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Speaker 5: the Spanish flu was sweeping through Boston at the time,

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Speaker 5: and he was delayed taking care of other patients. And

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Speaker 5: a nurse that had been hired by the family was

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Speaker 5: there to comfort Rose and keep her comfortable until the

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Speaker 5: doctor could arrive, and she had been trained as a

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Speaker 5: nurse to not deliver the baby, that her role was

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Speaker 5: to wait till the doctor arrived, and so she did

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Speaker 5: everything she could prevent the birth of the baby, including

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Speaker 5: holding the baby back in the birth canal for two

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Speaker 5: hours so that the doctor could arrive and deliver little Rosemary,

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Speaker 5: which of course we know today is incredibly dangerous, and

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Speaker 5: it appears that Rosemary likely suffered with some sort of

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Speaker 5: brain damage or lack of oxygen that have impaired her

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Speaker 5: intellectual life in the future. And Rose reported that at

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Speaker 5: first they were so happy to have a little girl.

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Speaker 5: They had the two older boys, Jack and his brother Joe,

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Speaker 5: and she had sisters. So Rose was so excited to

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Speaker 5: have her own little girl, and they didn't suspect that

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Speaker 5: anything was wrong until a little over a year later

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Speaker 5: they had Kick, and then a year after that they

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Speaker 5: had Eunice. And those two girls developed very quickly. And

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Speaker 5: I laugh and I write this in the book that Eunice,

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Speaker 5: who was always filled with the energy and just out

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Speaker 5: there all the time, you know, Kick developed a long

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Speaker 5: you know, she started walking at a year old and

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Speaker 5: talking and blah blah blah. And Eunice she's up walking

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Speaker 5: around at ten months. She's talking and telling everybody what

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Speaker 5: to do, is like a year old. Whereas Rosemary she

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Speaker 5: didn't start walking till, you know, a year and a

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Speaker 5: half old. She didn't really talk till she was older

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Speaker 5: than that. And then they noticed that she had difficulty

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Speaker 5: riding a tricycle or sledding on a hill. She had

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Speaker 5: difficulty determining right and left, whereas the younger siblings were

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Speaker 5: all on schedule. So they began to suspect that something

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Speaker 5: was not quite right. Interestingly, Rose said in one of

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Speaker 5: her interviews that when Rosemary was a baby and she

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Speaker 5: wasn't developed as quickly as the two older boys, she

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Speaker 5: thought it was because girls didn't develop as quickly as boys.

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Speaker 5: Did you know that was kind of typical for the

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Speaker 5: time period at any rate. Rosemary eventually goes to kindergarten

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Speaker 5: in Brookline, Massachusetts, and the teachers recognize immediately that she's

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Speaker 5: delayed compared to her five year old friends and other

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Speaker 5: students in the classroom, and she's held back a couple

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Speaker 5: of times in kindergarten. Kick in Eunice go to kindergarten

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Speaker 5: with her, and then go to first grade. Eventually they

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Speaker 5: completely bypass her because Rosemary just cannot get the lessons.

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Speaker 5: She can't read, and she has difficulty with her letters, etc.

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Speaker 5: And then that's when Rose and Joe figure out something

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Speaker 5: is not quite right in their view of Rosemary, and

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Speaker 5: they didn't know what to do because back in the

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Speaker 5: nineteen twenties, they didn't have special needs classes. They didn't

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Speaker 5: have teachers in the classroom to help kids who were

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Speaker 5: struggling with their lessons that were more developmentally delayed. They

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Speaker 5: didn't have any of that. So by the time she was,

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Speaker 5: you know, ten years old, they had to send her

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Speaker 5: away to different institutions that claimed that they would help

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Speaker 5: her develop intellectually et cetera. And the quality of those institutions,

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Speaker 5: of course, we questioned today because their methodologies were flawed

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Speaker 5: and not necessarily healthy and helpful.

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Speaker 4: And obviously there wasn't the medical knowledge and the language

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Speaker 4: we have today to describe what was happening. But was

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Speaker 4: there some consensus with their flawed knowledge of what was

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Speaker 4: going on where they could Did the family say, Rosemary

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Speaker 4: has this affliction? Rosemary is you know, has this disease

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Speaker 4: or something? Or was it just like a vague discomfort with.

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Speaker 5: So they were told that she was and I'm using

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Speaker 5: the words from that time period, that she was a moron,

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Speaker 5: that she was mentally retarded, and that she should be

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Speaker 5: put in an institution and left there and separated from society.

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Speaker 5: To Joe and Rose's credit, they would not accept that

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Speaker 5: and they would not say those words. So they kind

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Speaker 5: of pretended that there was really nothing wrong with her,

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Speaker 5: and they kept sending her to different schools, mostly Catholic

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Speaker 5: run schools, because they were deeply, deeply Catholic and very

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Speaker 5: tied into the Catholic structure, the archbishop, the bishop, the nuns,

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Speaker 5: and the different orders of nuns. So they always found

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Speaker 5: a school in sympathetic people within the church and in

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Speaker 5: those institutions who would help Rosemary and take care of her.

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Speaker 5: But it was a struggle, but they were bound and

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Speaker 5: determined to keep her to be part of the family.

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Speaker 5: And that's part of that ethic in the family, which

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Speaker 5: I still see today with the younger generations, is that

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Speaker 5: family is first. Family is everything, and you are your siblings'

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Speaker 5: best friends, and the older kids take care of the

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Speaker 5: younger kids, and that is it. Nobody interferes with that

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Speaker 5: bond and that commitment and that family ethic. And so

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Speaker 5: her siblings were there to protect her all the time.

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Speaker 5: They played tennis with her, they swam with her, they

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Speaker 5: sailed with her. They told her she was a great sailor,

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Speaker 5: even though she couldn't sail very well, but they congratulated

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Speaker 5: her anyway. And she always felt valued and loved in

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Speaker 5: that family setting, which I give them so much credit

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Speaker 5: for and they still do that today through their work

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Speaker 5: with nonprofits, etc. But that's how they were raised and

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Speaker 5: that's what Rosemary felt at home. Also, rose had a

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Speaker 5: strategy with Rosemary. It seemed like she really focused on

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Speaker 5: helping her develop the skills that she thought were the

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Speaker 5: skills that were going to enable her to be able

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Speaker 5: to join her siblings. Yeah, she would spend an amazing

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Speaker 5: amount of time with her school lessons, you know, working

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Speaker 5: with her after school. So later on, when she grew

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Speaker 5: much older, they would hire tutors, but when she was

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Speaker 5: a young child, it was Rose that would sit with

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Speaker 5: her and do the wrote reading and letters and the

301
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Speaker 5: math problems and things like that. She just knew that

302
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Speaker 5: Rosemary would respond to her better than some tutor. So

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Speaker 5: I just I admire that about Rose, that she did that,

304
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Speaker 5: and they really really tried to help her, and they

305
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Speaker 5: just thought it was a maturity thing. They wanted to

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Speaker 5: deny that it was an intellectual disability. They really wanted

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Speaker 5: it to be a maturity thing because she was immature

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Speaker 5: as well. But of course Rose also because of their

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Speaker 5: financial resources, she had beautiful clothing, so she always looked beautiful,

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Speaker 5: and she had makeup, and she would always make sure

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Speaker 5: that Rosemary looked beautiful and acted beautiful. So that's what

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Speaker 5: within Rose's world, that's what she saw she could do

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Speaker 5: for her daughter.

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Speaker 4: There's this sort of not paradox, but there are two

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Speaker 4: sides to Rose, from what I understand and from the book.

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Speaker 4: On the one hand, as you're saying she spent so

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Speaker 4: much time and energy and what we would now call,

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Speaker 4: you know, emotional labor to really spend time with Rosemary

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Speaker 4: and figure out how she can best self actualize in

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Speaker 4: the world. And then on the other hand, she did

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Speaker 4: have this reputation of being such a cold political operative

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Speaker 4: and wanting the family to have a good reputation. And

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Speaker 4: even compared to Joe, I think you're right that the

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Speaker 4: kids almost had more of an intimacy with their father

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Speaker 4: and would always you know, address their letters to Daddy,

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Speaker 4: whereas with Rose it would be much more formal. So

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Speaker 4: what is that tension about? I mean, what is like

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Speaker 4: where does Rose's kind of like empathy and maternal instincts,

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Speaker 4: you know, and and her sort of identity as this

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Speaker 4: like madetriarch of this great American dynasty begin.

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Speaker 5: So that's a great question, and it's really complicated. I

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Speaker 5: think part of it goes back to Rose's own relationship

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Speaker 5: with her father, who was Honey Fitzgerald. He was the

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Speaker 5: mayor of Boss Famous, famous, kind of a wild character,

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Speaker 5: and she was his right hand man in many ways.

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Speaker 5: She always was out in public with him. Her father

337
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,159
Speaker 5: was everything, her mother was shy, retired, stayed at home,

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Speaker 5: didn't like the public. So Rose was that person. So

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Speaker 5: she knew that image was everything. And while she loved

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Speaker 5: her children, she just wanted them to grow up to

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Speaker 5: be independent and to focus on their father because it

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Speaker 5: was a man's world and he was the one that

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Speaker 5: was going to give them access to this world. And

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Speaker 5: when Rosemary became a teenager, that's when things really got

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Speaker 5: dicey for Rose. Her stern kind of rigidness didn't work

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Speaker 5: with Rosemary. She didn't obey her mother anymore. She just,

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Speaker 5: you know, between hormones for a teenage girl and her

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Speaker 5: disabilities and all this other stuff that was going on,

349
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Speaker 5: she just did not listen to her mother. She listened

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Speaker 5: to her father sort of because he seemed to be

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Speaker 5: more patient with her. But of course he was very

352
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Speaker 5: controlling too, but she didn't see it the same way

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Speaker 5: she saw her mother as controlling. So Rose bears the

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Speaker 5: brunt of that kind of stern mother image. But that's

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Speaker 5: how she saw that she could raise those nine children

356
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Speaker 5: and keep them in line and have the family reputation

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Speaker 5: maintained and blossomed.

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Speaker 1: It seems like there was a lot of conflict around

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Speaker 1: Rosemary developing at that time, like becoming a young woman

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Speaker 1: and the concern about her weight. I mean, rose had

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Speaker 1: the Saturday morning weigh ins with the kids, and I

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Speaker 1: can also see Rosemary feeling very frustrated by that, although

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Speaker 1: like from her letters, it seems like she does still

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Speaker 1: really want to please her parents and be the appropriate

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Speaker 1: weight that they have decided is write for her. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, maybe this is just a very personal take

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Speaker 1: on it. But when I read about that, I think

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Speaker 1: about how gospel it is to control your body's size

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Speaker 1: and development and growth at that time, and how frustrating

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Speaker 1: that would be and how hurtful it would be. And

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Speaker 1: do we know how what Rosemary felt about that.

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Speaker 5: So from her letters, you can see that it is

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Speaker 5: a concern for her that she is gaining weight off

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Speaker 5: and on. She's losing weight, gaining weight, you know, like

375
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Speaker 5: teenagers do. But the control by the mother demanding that

376
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Speaker 5: everybody get weight in that's horrifying today. That's like child

377
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Speaker 5: abuse today. She just was fixated on how everyone should

378
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Speaker 5: look and the athletic and Rosemary struggled with all of that.

379
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Speaker 5: So she did feel the pressure, definitely felt the pressure.

380
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Speaker 5: But in a way when she was at the boarding schools.

381
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Speaker 5: She kind of was liberated a little bit from that

382
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Speaker 5: because it wasn't constant pressure like the other kids were feeling.

383
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Speaker 5: And so you know, Rosemary was not intellectually emotional able

384
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Speaker 5: to manage that. And if the dress didn't fit, then

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00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,679
Speaker 5: get her size larger. I think that's just what she

386
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 5: was thinking. And you can see from the different photographs

387
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Speaker 5: at the Kennedy Library over the years, Rosemary's physique changes.

388
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Speaker 5: Sometimes she's heavier, sometimes she's thinner. All within a year

389
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Speaker 5: or two years or three years, you can see that

390
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 5: that transformation. So it's tough when you think about how

391
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 5: she struggled with that along with everything else she had

392
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Speaker 5: to struggle with too. It's really it's sad. It's very sad.

393
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Speaker 5: Perhaps that's the only thing that rose thought she could

394
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Speaker 5: control in her children's lives, other than their faith, making

395
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Speaker 5: sure that they went to church and that they upheld

396
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 5: the family reputation. It was Joe that kind of guided

397
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Speaker 5: them into their future. So yeah, it's tragic, it's really tragic.

398
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Speaker 4: And how did this compare to how her sisters were treated.

399
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Speaker 4: Was she at some point especially singled out in terms

400
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Speaker 4: of issues about her weight and about her body or

401
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 4: did the Unice and Kick also experience this kind of

402
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,959
Speaker 4: a very strict, intense oversight.

403
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 5: So they did experience the same strict oversight, although their

404
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 5: bodies were not the same as Rosemary's, and they were

405
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 5: very athletic. And Rosemary, even if she wanted to be

406
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 5: an athlete, she could not because she was not coordinated.

407
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 5: She couldn't figure out how to be athletic. So they

408
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 5: were able to manage their weight and whatever. And Unice

409
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 5: actually struggled with intestinal issues, so she was always very

410
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 5: very thin anyway. And Kick was just a very athletic,

411
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 5: outgoing young woman who had confidence. She had these two

412
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 5: older brothers that admired her and took her everywhere, so

413
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Speaker 5: she was good. The other children, I'm not so clear on.

414
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Speaker 5: I didn't spend as much time on their childhoods as

415
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 5: I did on Rosemary. But of course I know as

416
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 5: adults they got letters from their mother criticizing their look

417
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 5: of that they were at some wedding or some event

418
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Speaker 5: and some public thing and she would criticize their dress

419
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 5: or whatever. It was like, really, mom, but that's who

420
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Speaker 5: rose was. That's who she was.

421
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Speaker 1: I want to set up a little bit of the

422
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: social context at this time, so they're sending Rosemary away,

423
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: but they're not really acknowledging exactly what her disabilities are.

424
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Speaker 1: And the thing that we've come across a lot at

425
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Speaker 1: this period of time. One there is of course, like

426
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,719
Speaker 1: they're concerned about political future and the public facing element

427
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: of the family. But also this is I mean, correct

428
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Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, but the height of eugenics. So

429
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Speaker 1: could you just explain a little bit what the thought

430
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Speaker 1: process was around eugenics and like how that would have

431
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: impacted Joe and Rose's, you know, presentation of Rosemary.

432
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Speaker 5: So, genics was big in the nineteen teens, in the

433
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 5: twenties and going into the nineteen thirties, and that was

434
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 5: a system that believed in people who were intellectually disabled

435
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 5: should be shut away. Some people took it as far

436
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 5: as experimented on and Rose and Joe were in that environment,

437
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 5: so they knew what the culture was saying and they

438
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 5: did not want to go along with that. They're admirable

439
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 5: in that they resisted those calls. Not the people were

440
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,959
Speaker 5: calling them out specifically, but they knew that the world

441
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 5: was looking at people with intellectual disabilities and saying they

442
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 5: should be put away. They are useless to society. They

443
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 5: shouldn't get married, they shouldn't have children, etc. So they

444
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 5: tried to disguise it as well as possible and as

445
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 5: much as possible, And I know it hurt them because

446
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 5: they wanted her to be as successful and exciting and

447
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 5: jubilant as her siblings. It just wasn't possible. So it

448
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 5: was easy to send her away to these schools, and

449
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 5: because they were very wealthy, they could pay a lot

450
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 5: of money for very expensive schools. They failed when they

451
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 5: sent her to schools that were not They didn't know

452
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 5: how to accommodate young people with intellectual disabilities, so they

453
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 5: kept shifting around. So in the meantime, however, when they

454
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 5: were out in public, they had trained Rosemary, which is

455
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 5: remarkable they were able to do this to not talk

456
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 5: in public. So people thought she was just shy and demure,

457
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 5: and the older she got, the taller, more beautiful. They

458
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 5: just found her mysterious because she didn't talk in public.

459
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 5: She would smile and the whole thing, but she and

460
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 5: maybe she might say hello, nice to meet you, but

461
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 5: that was it. So of course they're just like, who

462
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 5: is this mysterious, beautiful Kennedy girl? And Rose and Joe

463
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 5: were just nervous all the time that someone might discover

464
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 5: the truth about her. And so when they went to

465
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 5: England and they're in the public eye every single day,

466
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 5: they managed her fairly well, but it was hard. Someone

467
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 5: had to be with her constantly, and they wanted the

468
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 5: other siblings to enjoy themselves and learn and be with

469
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 5: diplomats and kings and queens, and it was hard with Rosemary.

470
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 5: So when they put her in the Assumption Convent school

471
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 5: and the sisters there were remarkable and wonderful, and they

472
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 5: gave her confidence and they made her feel needed and helpful,

473
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 5: and they told her, you know, they had her working

474
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 5: with little three year old children and she told they

475
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 5: told her that she was a junior teacher. She was,

476
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 5: so she felt valued and Worthwhile that was a magical

477
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 5: time in Rosemary's life, it's too bad that it couldn't

478
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 5: last for the rest of her life.

479
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: And that was a totally different structure of schooling than

480
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: anything that she'd experienced before. That was a Montossori school.

481
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, so in Montessori, each child learns along their own

482
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 5: path and they're given the tools and they're encouraged in

483
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 5: this wonderful environment to learn at their own pace, with encouragement,

484
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 5: of course, and this is what happened. These nuns were

485
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 5: using the Montessori method. They had been trained by Maria

486
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 5: Montessori in Italy, and so they were like among the

487
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 5: first few to start doing this and it worked beautifully

488
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 5: with Rosemary. And so I remember one of the nuns

489
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 5: gave an interview and she talked about lessons for Rosemary

490
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 5: were every day, all day long, and she didn't realize

491
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 5: they were lessons. They would set the table and Rosemary

492
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 5: would count the silverware and the dishes and the glasses,

493
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 5: and then she would do the dishes and dry them

494
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 5: and count them again and then count them as she

495
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 5: put them away. And it was just joy rather than

496
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 5: a chore. It was something fun. And she could by

497
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 5: that time, by the late nineteen thirties, she could read

498
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 5: a little bit, probably on a second grade third grade level,

499
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 5: so she could read little books to three year olds

500
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 5: and that made her feel successful. So you know, it

501
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 5: was it was perfect for Rosemary. It was just a

502
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 5: great path for her, and I know, a great relief

503
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 5: to Rose and Joe.

504
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 4: Just so we can have the timeline. This is in

505
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 4: her teens, This is like high school years.

506
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 5: This is so they went to England in nineteen thirty

507
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 5: eight because Joe had been appointed ambassador to Great Britain

508
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 5: by Franklin Delmer Roosevelt, our president at the time, and

509
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 5: so they moved to the ambassador's residence in England, and

510
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 5: this is when that took place. So she was twenty

511
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 5: years old at the time. Yeah, so it was perfect.

512
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 4: And then did the breaking point, so to speak, happen

513
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 4: when she then moved back home and she did not

514
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 4: have the structure that she had with the sisters exactly.

515
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 5: The family in nineteen forty had moved back except for Joe,

516
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 5: to the United States nineteen thirty nine, heading into nineteen forty,

517
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 5: but World War two started and it was dangerous in England,

518
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 5: so Joe decided Rosemary had to go back home. And

519
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 5: rose was really upset because she was not used to

520
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 5: taking care of Rosemary and didn't know what to do.

521
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 5: So it sort of began the downfall for Rosemary. She

522
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 5: just was drifting from one place to the next. And

523
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 5: the Assumption schools in the United States were not as

524
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 5: advanced as the Assumption schools in Europe. They weren't teaching

525
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 5: Montessori at the time, so it was a very difficult

526
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 5: time transition for everybody. And that began the downfall for

527
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 5: Rosemary because they could not control her anymore.

528
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: And there was a summer camp that she went to

529
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 4: to be a camp counselor, if I'm remembering correctly, because

530
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 4: you know, she had the training or experience working with

531
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 4: young kids, and they thought maybe that could be a

532
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 4: place where she could feel productive and feel useful.

533
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: Right.

534
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 5: The Sullivan's sisters had a camp in western Massachusetts, and

535
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 5: their family had known the Kennedys. So when rose reached

536
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 5: out to them, the two young Sullivan's sisters said, oh,

537
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 5: of course, missus Kennedy, we'd be happy to give a

538
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 5: junior counselor job to Rosemary. She did not tell them

539
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 5: about Rosemary, and when they arrived it was within a

540
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 5: matter of days they realized, oh, this is going to

541
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 5: be a problem. And within two weeks they said, you

542
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 5: have to come get Rosemary. You know, she's wandering off

543
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 5: in the middle of the night, she doesn't know what

544
00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 5: she's doing. It's we can't do this. And rose was furious.

545
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 5: So this is confusing to me, why she would do

546
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 5: that to these two young women. She went off to

547
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 5: Maine to Elizabeth Arden Spa and the family. Joe's right

548
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 5: hand man Eddie Moore had to go out to Western

549
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 5: Massachusett's pick up Rosemary and take her to Philadelphia where

550
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 5: Assumption sisters were willing to take her on, but they

551
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 5: had no idea what they were taking on. And then

552
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 5: she was moved again to New Jersey and then moved

553
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 5: to Washington, d C. It was just Rose had washed

554
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 5: her hands. Sadly, it was really tragic that she did that.

555
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: Not only just Rose and Job, but at the time,

556
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: there's this there's so much concerned about sexuality and a

557
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: woman or a young woman and using the label of

558
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: the time of being labeled a moron or being feeble minded.

559
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: Like I don't know if was based in real events

560
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: specific to Rosemary, but there was just this kind of

561
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: overwhelming concern about her having sex.

562
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 5: So part of that is the Catholicism. You know, Rose

563
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 5: worried about that with her other daughters too, particularly Kick,

564
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 5: who fell in love with the Englishman and Rose freaked

565
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 5: out and said, Okay, he's a Protestant, you can't marry him,

566
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 5: and cut off all of relationship with Kick, who you know,

567
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 5: was like I love this guy. I'm going to get

568
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 5: married him and have sex with him. I don't know

569
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 5: if they did before they got married, but anyway, that

570
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 5: was a concern of Roses. But I think Rosemary, according

571
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 5: to a couple of letters, she was very flirtatious and

572
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 5: very outgoing when she had the opportunity to be outgoing,

573
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 5: and she wanted to date boys. And there was a

574
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 5: note that she wrote complaining about how when her brothers

575
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 5: took her to dances, that they were boys that she

576
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 5: wanted to dance with, but her brothers kept her dance

577
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 5: car full, so she wasn't allowed to dance with them.

578
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 5: And so partly that was a concern that these young

579
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 5: men might figure out she was intellectually disabled, and that

580
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 5: they might tell other people. But also, you know, she

581
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 5: was a beautiful young girl and men were coming up

582
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 5: to her, and rose was worried about those men. Would

583
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 5: they push her into a compromising situation and she'd have

584
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 5: sex with them, and that would be Yike's you know. Oh,

585
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 5: And when she was in Washington, d c. In the

586
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 5: fall of nineteen forty into nineteen forty one, she was

587
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 5: at a convent school, another convent school, and she would

588
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 5: escape at night and go into the city, and the

589
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 5: nuns would be out at two o'clock in the morning

590
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 5: trying to find her, and they'd find her and her

591
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 5: clothes would be wrinkled and have leaves stuck to them,

592
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 5: and her hair would have leaves in it and grass,

593
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 5: and so they were very worried something was going on.

594
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 5: And I'm sure it was. You know, there were young

595
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 5: servicemen in Washington, d c. Waiting to ship off, and

596
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 5: they the nuns noted that she'd been drinking, so you know,

597
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 5: she was having an independent moment in her life, having

598
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 5: some fun, and rose and Joe were worried.

599
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 4: So of course this is all leading to this, you know,

600
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 4: really great shame in the Kennedy family, which is that

601
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 4: Joe ultimately had Rosemary lobotomized. And I'm wondering if you

602
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 4: can talk a little bit about the various different people

603
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 4: involved in this decision. You know, there was so much

604
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 4: secrecy involved. So at what point did Joe decide to

605
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 4: go rogue? Who knew?

606
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 5: What?

607
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 4: Was he aware of all the risks to what extent

608
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 4: was it sort of earnestly something he did for Rosemary's benefit,

609
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 4: as he claimed, versus you know, for the family, his reputation, etc.

610
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 4: Like what was the decision making process like.

611
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 5: So for Joe, And I'm coming down hard on Joe

612
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 5: on this. I think he wanted the problem on and

613
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 5: I know that Rose wanted the problem taken care of

614
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 5: but not gone in that sense. And she did investigate

615
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 5: some psychiatric hospitals that she was not pleased with their setting,

616
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 5: so she didn't want to put Rosemary in those settings.

617
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 5: But then Joe was friends with the priest that ran

618
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 5: this convent school, and he was associated with these two doctors,

619
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 5: Walter Freeman and James Watts, a neuro psychologist and a neurosurgeon,

620
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 5: and they were experimenting with lobotomies, and I think that

621
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 5: was the connection that Joe needed to move ahead and

622
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 5: have Rosemary lobotomized. I think Rose was against the idea,

623
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 5: and as I mentioned earlier, she reached out to Kick,

624
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 5: who was a journalist at the time in Washington, DC,

625
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 5: and she asked Kick to investigate these two doctors and

626
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 5: what they were doing. And Kick came back with the

627
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 5: report that it's not good, the outcomes are not good.

628
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 5: You can't do this to rose Mary. And so I'm

629
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 5: sure that Rose conveyed that to Joe, and later on

630
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 5: Rose alluded to the fact that she did not know

631
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 5: that Joe was going to go ahead and do this.

632
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 5: I don't know if I believe her or not. Possibly

633
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 5: he just went ahead and did it, and then Rose

634
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 5: just accepted it and that was it. But the two

635
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 5: men operated on her, and the surgery was a complete failure,

636
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 5: and she came out of it completely and totally disabled.

637
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 4: Famously, the siblings did not know about this for a

638
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 4: very long time. I mean, just purely logistically, how is

639
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 4: it possible that the people closest to her did not

640
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 4: know the truth?

641
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 5: Well, Kick knew, and obviously the two older brothers knew

642
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 5: to tell the younger siblings. Probably they understood why involved them,

643
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 5: and it was easy to tell them that she had

644
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 5: been sent to a psychiatric kind of place where she

645
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 5: would be happy and taken care of and we wouldn't

646
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 5: have to worry about her anymore. I'm sure the siblings

647
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 5: could understand that, like it was just another facility, another school,

648
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 5: and that's good. But the older ones they knew, but

649
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 5: they didn't challenge their parents because they never challenged their parents. Really,

650
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 5: and that first letter I remember, I was shocked, and

651
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 5: I write about this in my book. It was done

652
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 5: sometime in November of nineteen forty one. And I remember

653
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 5: the first letter that Rose wrote to all the kids.

654
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,439
Speaker 5: She had this habit of writing one letter to all

655
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 5: of them, and the letter was copied and sent around

656
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 5: to all of them. It was the same letter, and

657
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 5: it was the first letter where Rosemary's name was not

658
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 5: added to the list of all the other children's names,

659
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 5: and that shocked me. And her name was not on

660
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 5: any of the letters after that. So that's creepy and

661
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 5: sad and confusing and regretful.

662
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 1: Clearly, do we know how soon after the lobotomi Rose

663
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: would have seen Rosemary.

664
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 5: I actually don't think she saw Rosemary again. I don't

665
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 5: think she did. Did Joe, Yes, Joe did, but not

666
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 5: many times. I think he saw her in the hospital

667
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 5: in Washington, d C. Once she was sent to the

668
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 5: facility outside of New York City. I don't think he went.

669
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 5: It was too risky for him to be spotted. That's

670
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 5: when Eddie Moore and his wife Mary, they were the assistants.

671
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 5: They were like aunt and uncle to all the kids.

672
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 5: They went and visited Rosemary all the time.

673
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 4: And did any other family members visit.

674
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 5: Not until the nineteen fifties, not until the nineteen fifties.

675
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 5: So it is very, very sad. And as I said,

676
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 5: Jack went to see Rosemary. She was transferred to Wisconsin

677
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 5: in a nineteen forty nine to a Catholic institution in Jefferson, Wisconsin,

678
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 5: and she was taken care of there beautifully. And that's

679
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 5: where Jack saw her for the first time and was shocked,

680
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 5: and it stunned him. So it did change him. And

681
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,479
Speaker 5: once the other siblings learned of it, it changed them too,

682
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 5: and they once they had the power to make a difference,

683
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 5: they started to make a difference.

684
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 4: I think what you're describing as you know, they were

685
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,720
Speaker 4: too young and too you know, obedient to their parents

686
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 4: when this all went down, and then you sort of

687
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 4: grow up. You are concerned with your own life, and

688
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 4: obviously all of them had incredibly successful careers, and then

689
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 4: at some point you're looking this thing in the face

690
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 4: and you are you can't believe that this is part

691
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 4: of your family's legacy. So what was it that changed

692
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 4: when they wanted to kind of, you know, do right

693
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 4: by their sister.

694
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 5: So I think Unice is the source of this transformation.

695
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 5: With the siblings she started in social work. She was

696
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 5: that empathetic person. She had been the closest to Rosemary.

697
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 5: It mattered to her that she not be forgotten, and

698
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 5: she basically was forgotten. So through her efforts, I think

699
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 5: she clearly convinced her brother Jack to go visit Rosemary,

700
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 5: and that kept things rolling. So once he was elected president,

701
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 5: Eunice's passion in her work to convince people to take

702
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 5: care of people with disabilities could blossom. And she had

703
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 5: a nation behind her, you know, a federal government with

704
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 5: funding so that she could start not only the Special Olympics,

705
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 5: which was an organization that began before she got involved,

706
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 5: but she pushed Jack to create a new part of

707
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 5: the National Institute of Health that was dedicated to women

708
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 5: and children and women's health in particular and pregnancy because

709
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 5: everything at the National Institute of Health up until that

710
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 5: point was all about men. Experiments on men, testing drugs

711
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 5: on men, procedures, everything was about men. Women were and

712
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 5: children were second rate, third rate. And she made that

713
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 5: change because Jack was willing to pass the legislation to

714
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 5: make that difference. And she continued to be an advocate

715
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 5: for change and moving things forward for the rest of

716
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 5: her life. And her children have done the same thing.

717
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 5: And other Kennedy family members have done that. They have

718
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 5: been devoted to that. And when I was doing the

719
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 5: book and I interviewed the Shriver kids, I remember hearing

720
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 5: Anthony Shriver's voice. He was so passionate about Rosemary. He

721
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 5: said that they lived in Chicago, you know, when he

722
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 5: was a young man. I'm not sure how old he

723
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 5: is now, but maybe in the seventies, and he would

724
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 5: go to Jefferson, Wisconsin and stay with Rosemary, you know,

725
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 5: sleep on her floor, just to get to know her.

726
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 5: You know, Eunice raised her kids to be empathetic too.

727
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 5: And then he told me that, so he established Best Buddies,

728
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 5: which is a program where college children kids are paired

729
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 5: with intellectually disabled college age kids, so the Best Buddies.

730
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 5: And so he moved to Miami, and he built an

731
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 5: addition on his house so that Rosemary could come and

732
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 5: stay with him and get to know his children and

733
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 5: his family, and two nuns would accompany her and stay

734
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 5: and vacation with them.

735
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 4: You know.

736
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 5: It was just like, she's part of our family. I

737
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 5: don't want her to be hidden this whole time. And

738
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 5: after Joe died in nineteen sixteen nine, Rose started having

739
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 5: Rosemary come to Hyannas for two weeks and then the

740
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 5: same amount of time in Palm Beach, so the public

741
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 5: god a view of Rosemary for the first time. You know,

742
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 5: those paparazzi would be hiding behind bushes and they would

743
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 5: see Rosemary with the nuns, or she would be going

744
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 5: swimming because she could swim. She was a great swimmer.

745
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 5: And then you know, she started being out in the

746
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 5: open and people could see her. So those kids, they

747
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 5: made that difference, They made that happen.

748
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: Sorry, I got a little confused there. Who was bringing

749
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 1: her to Hyannas.

750
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 5: Rose eventually, after Joe died, she decided, at the children's

751
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 5: encouragement to bring Rosemary to Hyannas to spend time with

752
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 5: the family. Because Rose did not have a relationship with her.

753
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 5: She did go and see Rosemary in nineteen sixty two, Okay,

754
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 5: when Eunice said to her, I'm writing an article for

755
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 5: the Saturday Evening Post about Rosemary, and you know, basically

756
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 5: you can't stop me. And I think it would be

757
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 5: a good idea, basically if you went and visited Rosemary.

758
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 5: So the nuns who were taking care of her. They

759
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 5: mentioned when rose arrived for the first time, and this

760
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 5: is a little over twenty years, she hadn't seen her daughter.

761
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 5: The nuns reported that when Rosemary saw her mother, she

762
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 5: screamed and hit her. She hadn't seen her mother in

763
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 5: twenty years. She was angry. She knew who her mother was,

764
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 5: she knew who her father was, she knew who her

765
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 5: siblings were. They hadn't come to visit her, or not

766
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 5: all of them anyway. So yeah, that changed rose It

767
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 5: changed her.

768
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: That is something that we didn't really hit on, which

769
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: is the description of Rosemary's physical tantrums or that she

770
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: could be physical with her siblings or with caretakers. And

771
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: I guess I never really understood how serious that was,

772
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: or if it was, how serious that issue was, if

773
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on the level of difficulty with her,

774
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: like physical lashing out right.

775
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 5: It was Eunice that mentioned this In a couple of

776
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 5: her interviews that are at the John F. Kennedy Library

777
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 5: here in Boston. She relays stories of Rosemary getting angry

778
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 5: and striking out at people and hitting them and screaming

779
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 5: and yelling and kicking, and she remembers sometimes they would

780
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 5: call a doctor to come and the doctor would give

781
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 5: Rosemary little red pills, which I looked up what are

782
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 5: little red pills in the nineteen twenties and thirties, and

783
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 5: they're barbituates, So they would calm her down. The grandfather,

784
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 5: Honey Fitzgerald, she would attack him sometimes and just beat

785
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 5: on him. So they were very nervous about Rosemary striking

786
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 5: out at people. And there were other times where her

787
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 5: behavior did unsettle the family, like during the nineteen thirties

788
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 5: if they were at Hyanna's together. This is before you know,

789
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 5: in the summertime, there wasn't school for Rosemary to go to,

790
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 5: so she'd be at home and visitors would comment on

791
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 5: how you know, she just seemed odd and off, and

792
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 5: she would say and do weird things, and you know,

793
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 5: there would be tension in the house around her. So

794
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 5: there were issues. There were problems, clearly no one knew

795
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 5: how to deal with except the barbituates seemed to help

796
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 5: at some point with her raging anger.

797
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: Were there examples of her odd behavior that people discussed her.

798
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 5: There was one person that talked about how she would

799
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 5: come down stares at any time of the day, like

800
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 5: in a nightgown, which back in the thirties no women

801
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 5: did that ever, you know, be lunchtime or whenever, and

802
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 5: she just would not seem to care or notice what

803
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 5: was going on. There was another report of when they

804
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 5: would have events at the house, or they would have

805
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 5: a lot of guests at the house, they would send

806
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 5: Rosemary off with somebody else, like a caretaker of some sort,

807
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 5: and sometimes they would send her with relatives who could

808
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 5: be her companion, and it would be too much for Rosemary,

809
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 5: and sometimes she would come back from these excursions while

810
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 5: everyone else's partying at the house. She would come back

811
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 5: and be frustrated and angry and exhausted and freak out

812
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 5: on everybody and start screaming and hitting people. So it

813
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 5: was hard for her to control her emotions, her anger, frustration,

814
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 5: her sense of you know, I'm not a doctor, so

815
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 5: I don't know. But she clearly was not happy, and

816
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 5: they just thought sending her away for the day would help,

817
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 5: and it didn't because she would explode once she got home.

818
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 5: She stayed good until she got home and then she

819
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 5: let it go.

820
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 4: So she as you said, she died in two thousand

821
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 4: and five. She lived a very long life. She was

822
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 4: I think eighty six when she passed. So what were

823
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 4: those years like between you know, her family getting back

824
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 4: in touch basically, and her seeing her mother again and

825
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 4: you know, through the final years of her life.

826
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,479
Speaker 5: So the caretakers that I spoke with told me that

827
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 5: she was very happy there in Wisconsin. She had her

828
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 5: own little house and the two caregivers would live with her.

829
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 5: But also she was part of the community, the disabled

830
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 5: community at the facility Saint Coletta's in Jefferson, Wisconsin, and

831
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 5: she had friends. So she would play cards with her

832
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 5: friends every day or sit with them every day. She

833
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 5: felt like she had a community and family. Her parents

834
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 5: paid for an Olympic sized pool to be built at

835
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 5: the facility, so she swam every day. That's how she

836
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 5: became a strong, good swimmer despite her disabilities. She walked

837
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 5: with a significant limp and her left side was damaged

838
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 5: from the lobotomy, and they worked with her. They hired

839
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 5: physical therapists to work with her who helped her move

840
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 5: better and get around, and they made her feel loved

841
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 5: and cared for. They became the substitute family for her,

842
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 5: and she was very well taken care of, very well.

843
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 5: Hence she lived to be eighty six years old.

844
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I my understanding of her abilities

845
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: after the lobotomy were that she couldn't speak and she

846
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: was paralyzed, But it sounds like she over time was

847
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: able to bring back some of those skills.

848
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 5: Right, So when she was lobotomized, she actually could not

849
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 5: walk or talk, She couldn't do any of that. And

850
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 5: the first facility she was sent to outside of New

851
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 5: York City, they didn't give her any physical therapy or

852
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 5: occupational therapy or anything. So she still couldn't do any

853
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 5: of that until she got to Wisconsin, and slowly they

854
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 5: started adding physical therapy work with her. In the nineteen eighties,

855
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 5: the profession had changed and the institution brought in some

856
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 5: very well qualified, sophisticated physical therapists that worked with Rosemary

857
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 5: and got her. She could speak a few words, but

858
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 5: she couldn't carry on a conversation with anybody. So she

859
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 5: could speak a little bit better over the years, and

860
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 5: certainly her mobility improved dramatically under the care of these

861
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 5: physical therapists.

862
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: So by the end, you know, she's playing cards with friends,

863
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: is she able to how well is she able to communicate?

864
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 5: So I'm not sure how well they all communicated with

865
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 5: each other, but enough so that she felt happy and heard.

866
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 5: I don't know what the card games were. I'm not

867
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 5: sure if that even mattered. Whatever it was made her happy.

868
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:20,319
Speaker 5: She loved routine. According to her caregivers, she got up

869
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 5: at like I'm going to just say seven o'clock. I

870
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 5: can't remember the exact time, but she would get up

871
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 5: and her slippers would be right there next to her bed.

872
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 5: So she'd get up, swing around, put her feet right

873
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 5: into her slippers, stand up, put her robe on. It

874
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 5: was a routine that she kept to every single day

875
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 5: because that's what she needed. Eventually, because of her aging,

876
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 5: she needed to be in a wheelchair. So she did

877
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 5: move to that, probably in the nineteen nineties at some point.

878
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 5: And I know that Eunice. After the book came out,

879
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,479
Speaker 5: there were people that reached out to me to tell

880
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 5: me more things about her that I did not know.

881
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 5: And Eunice started bringing her to Boston for healthcare to

882
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 5: make sure she was getting the best healthcare she thought

883
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 5: in the country. And so she had doctors here in Boston,

884
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 5: and you know, she just had different things done here

885
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 5: in different parts of the country that Eunice felt were

886
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 5: better treatment than she was getting in Jefferson, Wisconsin.

887
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 4: So as we wrap up, I wanted to ask, you know,

888
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 4: you have obviously spent years and thousands of hours of

889
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 4: research studying Rosemary and the Kennedy's more broadly, was there

890
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 4: anything you found, whether it was a letter or a

891
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 4: first person account, or something that was surprising that really

892
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 4: like shed light on a part of the story that

893
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 4: you weren't expecting.

894
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 5: It's hard to say that there was one letter or

895
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 5: one story that really shed light on things. It was

896
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 5: a series of letters and people, interviews with people that

897
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 5: actually made me sympathetic to Rose and Joe at some

898
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 5: point and then other times to get really angry with them.

899
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 5: And then letters from caregivers that described trying to take

900
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 5: care of Rosemary and how complicated it was at a

901
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 5: time and period where there were no resources, there were

902
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 5: no guidelines for these teachers or these nuns and how

903
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 5: to take care of her. And then her letters to

904
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 5: her father, you know, when she was so unhappy because

905
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 5: she couldn't come home because the deal was she had

906
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 5: to do good in school, and so she would get

907
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 5: c's and d's and f's, and she's like, Daddy, I

908
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 5: love you so much. Please, Daddy, I want to come home.

909
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 5: I promise I'll get better grades. I promise, I promise,

910
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 5: I promise. She would lie in her letters and saying

911
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 5: she's getting a's in her classes she was getting there's

912
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 5: a letter right the next day from the teacher saying

913
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 5: she's flunking this class, you know, and how at the

914
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 5: camp that she was sent to in Massachusetts as an adult,

915
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 5: and she's crying, how sad she is that she has

916
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 5: to leave. Daddy, Please, I don't want to leave. And oh,

917
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 5: but I'll go if you want me to. Who I

918
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 5: want to please you so much, Daddy. I don't want

919
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 5: to disappoint you. I mean, my heart was breaking for

920
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 5: her because she was confused, she didn't quite understand and

921
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 5: it just was not working for her.

922
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking of that. I love you, Daddy.

923
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 1: I never want to disappoint you. And the fact that

924
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: she did have the cognitive ability to lie is that

925
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,240
Speaker 1: is a I mean to me, that is a sign

926
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 1: of development and understanding. And I don't know, it's a

927
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: very heartbreaking subject.

928
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:33,720
Speaker 5: It is very heartbreaking.

929
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting looking at that time period, but

930
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: it is also just heartbreaking because.

931
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, but the way that I look at it now

932
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 5: is that it is a very sad story. But in

933
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 5: my view, Rosemary has changed the world for all of us.

934
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 5: It's because of her that her siblings went on to

935
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 5: pass legislation to create institutions and organizations and insist on

936
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,360
Speaker 5: better treatment and better technology and better everything for people

937
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 5: with intellectual and physical disabilities. So Rosemary is really the

938
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 5: person that deserves the credit for this. So if she

939
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 5: could know that today, that would be great. We should

940
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 5: all recognize that she's the one that is a.

941
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 4: Great note to end on, thank you so much. This

942
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 4: was incredibly enlightening, and thank you so much for taking

943
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 4: the time.

944
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 5: Thank you for doing this. I appreciate it.

945
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode.

946
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 4: Next week, for a slightly lighter topic, we are talking

947
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 4: about Jackie O's dating life.

948
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all

949
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: Things Kennedy every week.