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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's gotta be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 2: can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Dick. It appened here, a show that is

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Speaker 3: about a number of I really should have done an

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Speaker 3: actual intro for this one. This is embarrassing. Roast me

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Speaker 3: along with me is Sharene and James.

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Speaker 4: Hello, miya, Oh yeah that was great. I thought about

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Speaker 4: was actually great. Keep them guessing, you know, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: they never know what they're going to get. Would it

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Speaker 4: be sad?

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Speaker 5: Would it be happy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, this is a This is a this is a

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Speaker 3: really sad episode. This is an episode that I got

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Speaker 3: really picked off or writing. Yeah, and this is an

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Speaker 3: episode about Palestine. Now, most of the attention on Palestine

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Speaker 3: right now has been focused on Gaza for you know,

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Speaker 3: very obvious reasons. Guza is the place where you know,

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Speaker 3: most of most of the Israeli offensive is happening. It's

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Speaker 3: where most of the people are. Israelis are killing the

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Speaker 3: most people. But however, coma, there's also been a bunch

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Speaker 3: of killing going on in the West Bank. And this

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Speaker 3: is you know, the the murders of Palestinians in the

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Speaker 3: West Bank is stuff that you know, it's been intensified

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Speaker 3: by the current conflict, but this is stuff that's been

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Speaker 3: happening even before, like this latest round of stuff started.

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Speaker 3: Since the beginning of the year, Israeli settlers and government

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Speaker 3: forces have killed several hundred Palestinians in the West Bank.

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Speaker 3: And I think in a lot of ways the dynamics

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Speaker 3: of the entire Israeli project are clearer in the West

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Speaker 3: Bank than they are anywhere else, which is a bold

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Speaker 3: stane I will conceive. But I think by the end

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Speaker 3: of this we'll see if I'm right.

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Speaker 4: I think you're I think you're right in the sense that,

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Speaker 4: like the systems of apartheid are very clear in the

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Speaker 4: West Bank versus other parts.

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Speaker 5: Of Yeah, I mean, the violent dynamic of it's really

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Speaker 5: Thereaty project is pretty fucking evident when that bombing showed it's.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But I think I think specifically, the part that's

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Speaker 3: easiest to understand in the West Bank is why it's

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Speaker 3: why it's a mutually self reinforcing dynamic. Why why why

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Speaker 3: the Settler project keeps like has been building the way

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Speaker 3: that it has, why it keeps inevitably leading to violence

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Speaker 3: the way that it has, and why it's it's, you know,

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Speaker 3: effectively the sort of cyclical self reinforcing project. But to

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Speaker 3: actually understand what I'm talking about, we need to go

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Speaker 3: back to the beginning of the Israeli occupation to understand

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Speaker 3: what the occupation actually is, because I'm not actually sure.

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Speaker 3: I don't know this is something that like, I feel

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Speaker 3: like most of the people talking about this kind of

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Speaker 3: just assume everyone knows, and I feel like we should

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Speaker 3: not assume that. We should, you know, actually go back

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Speaker 3: and run through some of this history really quickly.

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Speaker 5: My cynical take is that most of the people talking about

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Speaker 5: this maybe don't have the deepest understanding themselves, and uh

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Speaker 5: that you're skating along on that assumption not to have

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Speaker 5: to expose their own shaky foundation.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I've talked about it before on like

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Speaker 4: every podcast I've done, but I feel like people like

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Speaker 4: tune it out, you know what I mean, Like, I

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Speaker 4: feel like people don't actually absorb what I'm what any

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Speaker 4: what they hear, because it's like, oh this again or

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Speaker 4: whatever the fuck they're thinking.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna I'm gonna hammer I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna hammer a copy of this into all of your brains.

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Speaker 5: You have no choice, you must, Martin Luthering the History

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Speaker 5: of Palestine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, gonna nail ninety five copies of the Geneva Convention

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Speaker 3: to the door. So in the beginning, there was the Nakba,

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Speaker 3: which is the great design the Palestinian people in which

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Speaker 3: the Israelis armed. I should mention by Stalin, which is

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Speaker 3: something that is incredibly inconvenient for everyone in the entire

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Speaker 3: American political spectrum. And we will get back to who also,

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Speaker 3: like who specifically was doing the knack book, because it's

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Speaker 3: not exactly who anyone really expects or portrays them as.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, a bunch of a bunch of armed settlers,

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Speaker 3: armed by Stalin, drives seven hundred thousand Palestinians from their homes.

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Speaker 3: They seize those homes, they take them for themselves. Now

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Speaker 3: this is I think, okay, this is this is the

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Speaker 3: part where where disclaimer Mia is not it is not

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Speaker 3: a professor of international law. I think this was actually

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Speaker 3: technically not a legally a war crime because I only

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Speaker 3: because the Fourth Geneva Convention hadn't been ratified yet, because

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Speaker 3: the knackbut takes place in nineteen forty eight, and this

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Speaker 3: is a year before the Geneva Convention or the fourth

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Speaker 3: Geneva Convention, the part that as the stuff we're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about, uh was ratified. It's two years before

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Speaker 3: it comes into force. But you know from the beginning,

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Speaker 3: what you have here is a settler colony. The Israelis

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Speaker 3: have driven out the Palestinians who have been living there.

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Speaker 3: They have seized their homes and they have replaced them,

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Speaker 3: which you are settlers.

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Speaker 4: And they've also massacred like fifty Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they've killed a ton of people. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: I guess I should be more explicit about that, Like

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Speaker 3: when I say drive out, like sometimes they were, it's

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Speaker 3: just it's people fleeing. A lot of times they're killed.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think it's like they flat in entire villages, you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like it's not just like oh

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Speaker 4: they're empty houses now, it's like, no, they actually destroyed everything,

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Speaker 4: built new cities where there already were cities, renamed the cities.

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Speaker 5: It's yeah, it was just I don't know, it's striful.

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Speaker 5: The reason people are leaving is because they've seen their

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Speaker 5: neighbors and family members killed and their fields and houses burned,

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Speaker 5: and they know that that's coming for them right later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think this is sorry, tangent is. There are so

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Speaker 4: many videos of like former IDF soldiers that were not

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Speaker 4: think it's not idea technically, but like former people that

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Speaker 4: fought in the Nekba that like drove these people out

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Speaker 4: of their homes and it's so repulsive. There's literally like

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Speaker 4: a it was on an Israeli news channel or like

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Speaker 4: some type of Israeli show where there's an old man

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Speaker 4: like laughing about how him and his group raped a

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Speaker 4: sixteen year old girl and shot everyone in a row,

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Speaker 4: all the babies, everything else. It's just like and that's

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Speaker 4: coming from them. So I think that's important to know.

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Speaker 4: It's not just like us saying, oh my god, these

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Speaker 4: terrible things happen. It's like, no, they actually admitted to

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Speaker 4: it multiple times. We're just telling you from you know

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Speaker 4: what I mean. I think it's important to say that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is something we're going to get into

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Speaker 3: more in a bit, but what are the consequences of this?

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Speaker 3: And one of the consequences of running a settler colony

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Speaker 3: like this is that the people that it produces, who

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Speaker 3: are the people who you know, the people who are

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Speaker 3: like ordering people and taking their homes right in order.

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Speaker 3: The kind of person you have to be in order

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Speaker 3: to do that is just absolutely terrifying, just like you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean this and this is why you see so

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Speaker 3: much stuff both here and you know, like that, like

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Speaker 3: in in in the early phases of like not even

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Speaker 3: the early phases, but like most of the phases of

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Speaker 3: US settler expansion, right, you you really account to these

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Speaker 3: people and those like these people are all serial killers.

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Speaker 5: To do that, I think you have to convince yourself

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Speaker 5: that the people you are doing it to are less

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Speaker 5: human or not human like that. It's fundamental to colonialism,

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Speaker 5: right to consider yourself to either be a higher form

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Speaker 5: of humanity or like distinct, like in a species sense

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Speaker 5: from these British people did that in their colonialism too.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, you see it all the time in specifically

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Speaker 5: in like their language and culture that depicts the settler

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Speaker 5: colonization of the United States or what is now the

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Speaker 5: United States. Right, Like, you can look at the like

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Speaker 5: what it's called the wars after the after the Civil

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Speaker 5: War and see just all kinds of the most fucking

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Speaker 5: horrific shit imaginable because you're you're doing a genocide. You're

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Speaker 5: just doing it like piece by piece as you go

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Speaker 5: across the country.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is one of these parts of American

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Speaker 3: history that people don't understand. And when you learn it,

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Speaker 3: there's this real sort of even even in sort of

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Speaker 3: radical accounts, and I understand why they do this, but

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Speaker 3: there's a tendency to not to sort of back away

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Speaker 3: from exactly how violent this stuff was. And you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of the reason for this is like it's

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Speaker 3: you know, it can get into this sort of realm

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Speaker 3: of like I don't know, there's almost weird like like tragedy,

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Speaker 3: horror porn stuff, but like it was, it was as

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Speaker 3: bad as anything that has ever happened to humans. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then and then the people doing that stuff are

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Speaker 3: you know, driven by the same kinds of of stuff

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Speaker 3: that's happening here.

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Speaker 5: Fuck, the people doing that stuff are still like like

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Speaker 5: that there's a park named after them. In San Diego,

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Speaker 5: there's kit cass And Park, there's Uniparosa Park, like like

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Speaker 5: it's baked into American culture still, like the Genocidas are

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Speaker 5: fucking celebrated here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is and this is this is aweso

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Speaker 3: true of Israel. Now. Okay, So so after after the

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Speaker 3: knock ball, there's there's a lot of people who think

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Speaker 3: that like this is the end of the whole process, right,

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Speaker 3: that like, okay, so we've expelled these people, we've killed

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Speaker 3: these people, there's now a Jewish state, it has like

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Speaker 3: relatively stable borders or whatever. This is going to be

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Speaker 3: the end of it, and that that did not happen.

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Speaker 3: And one of the reasons that didn't happen is the

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixty seven Six Days War, where is Israel launches

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Speaker 3: what's called a preemptive strike on Egypt. It's okay, so

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Speaker 3: they this is the pr term that's been developed afterwards

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Speaker 3: for it. The reality is that Egypt was not about

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Speaker 3: to attack Israel. The Israelis just started a war, like

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Speaker 3: just straight up started a war and invaded Egypt, and

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Speaker 3: the Sixth Day War winds up being a war between

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Speaker 3: the Israelis and so it's mostly Egypt. They end up

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Speaker 3: finding Egypt, Syria and Jordan a little bit. And like

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Speaker 3: technically the Saudis, like Iraq, Kuwait and Lebanon are in

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Speaker 3: the war, but like they don't do shit. There's a

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Speaker 3: story I think it's actually from the seventy three war,

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Speaker 3: but there's a story of uh, there's there's there's there's

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Speaker 3: a bunch of people, and there's a bunch of Egyptian

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Speaker 3: soldiers in a bunch of trenches and a bunch of

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Speaker 3: like the like Saudi command rolls up, and the Saudis

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Speaker 3: roll up and fucking rolls royces, and the Egyptian commanders

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Speaker 3: looks at these guys just just go home because people

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Speaker 3: just like you and the and this this is one

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Speaker 3: of those scread dynamics here of like god like the

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Speaker 3: air powers outside of Egypt for some of the time,

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Speaker 3: I'm really we're not taking this very seriously. And you know,

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Speaker 3: and and and the consequence of this is that the

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Speaker 3: the is most of the most of the sixty seven

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Speaker 3: war is I mean, the entirety of the sixty seven

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Speaker 3: war is just the Israelis beating the absolute piss out

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Speaker 3: of the Egyptians. In large part because the Egyptians weren't

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Speaker 3: like actually trying to fight a war, so they were

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Speaker 3: basically completely unprepared for getting invaded by Israel. Now this

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Speaker 3: is this war is a complete disaster for for the

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Speaker 3: air powers. Like gamaldel Nasser is so ashamed of his

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Speaker 3: defeat that he resigns and doesn't like come back until

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Speaker 3: a bunch of protests in Egypt like demand that he'd

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Speaker 3: come back.

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Speaker 5: He did it really royally kind of like his position

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Speaker 5: was that were like, eventually I going to attack us,

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Speaker 5: We'll have a defensive position, and failed miserably yet happy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it did not work. This is this and this

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Speaker 3: this is a complete disaster. But and and and the other,

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Speaker 3: you know, the part of it that's that's most important

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Speaker 3: for our story is that this is the period where

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Speaker 3: the Israelis start seizing territory en mass. They take the

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Speaker 3: entire Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, they take the goal on

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Speaker 3: Heights from Syria, and most importantly for our purposes, they

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Speaker 3: take both the West Bank and Gaza, which means they

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Speaker 3: now occupy all of Palestine now immediately, like effectively immediately

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Speaker 3: as this is happening, one point three million Palestinians flee

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Speaker 3: the West Bank and Gaza. And you know, this has

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Speaker 3: a consequence of enormously expanding the already very very large,

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Speaker 3: like permanent refugee population of Palestinians in a bunch of

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Speaker 3: other countries. And this is also where we come to

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Speaker 3: the focus of today's episode, which is Israeli settlers. But

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Speaker 3: do you know who else shows up uninvited and is

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Speaker 3: technically illegal under.

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Speaker 7: Multiple sections of international law?

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Speaker 5: Is it Runnald Reagan? The surprise Reagan?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we are back. So one of the things

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Speaker 3: that the Geneva Convention establishes is this set of legal

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Speaker 3: obligations that occupiers have in occupy in over territory that

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Speaker 3: they occupy. So if you know, the way that's supposed

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Speaker 3: to work under international law is that you know, technically speaking, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you can occupy territory, but you're not allowed to do

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Speaker 3: whatever you want with that territory. You have to actually

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Speaker 3: abide by a set of laws. And this was done to,

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Speaker 3: you know, after World War Two, to protect like people

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Speaker 3: in occupy territories from the unbelievable horrors that were unleashed

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Speaker 3: by the Nazis in World War Two. Now, one of

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Speaker 3: the things that you cannot do if you are occupying

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Speaker 3: a territory, is you cannot expel civilians from their homes

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Speaker 3: and replace them with your own civilians. This is this

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Speaker 3: is a war crime. You are is honor international law.

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Speaker 3: You're not allowed to do this. Now, I've been talking

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Speaker 3: a lot about international law. This is where I kind

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Speaker 3: of I don't know if disagrees with the right word.

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Speaker 3: I have very little faith in international law. I know a

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Speaker 3: lot of people who are have been involved in this,

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Speaker 3: you know, like in the struggle for liberating Palestine for

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Speaker 3: a very very long time, like take international law very seriously.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Like I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, Israel has has not followed international laws. Yeah, like

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Speaker 4: nothing happens.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, international police.

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Speaker 4: It's like there's no way to it. I don't believe

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Speaker 4: what it's telling me because nothing ever happens.

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Speaker 5: And it has Maybe it has a moral value, right,

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Speaker 5: I guess that's that's the idea behind some of the activism,

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Speaker 5: is that like it can help position something as being

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Speaker 5: in the wrong and then that might help some But yeah,

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Speaker 5: it hasn't worked. It didn't stop fucking it didn't stop

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Speaker 5: the rainge of genocide in Meamma hasn't stopped the population

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Speaker 5: exchange in a free like it's pretend it doesn't exist

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Speaker 5: un as.

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Speaker 3: Someone enforces it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, like it doesn't. It's it's I feel like

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Speaker 5: sometimes it's a to them for like Western liberals to

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Speaker 5: be like, oh, well they brother, they can't do that.

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Speaker 5: They're breaking international law. Oh fuck, they're doing it anyway,

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Speaker 5: Like well, yeah, yes, yeah, And like understandably, like no

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Speaker 5: one particularly wants to like be the ones who enforce

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Speaker 5: international law because that involves your children dying, uh, and

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Speaker 5: so they let's let other children die instead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, but the consequence of this being

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Speaker 3: really toothless is that, you know, it's the language of

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Speaker 3: this stuff is framed, and I want to frame this

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Speaker 3: like differently for a second, which is I want to

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Speaker 3: I want to think about what is being prohibited here

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Speaker 3: in basic moral terms, because the the what the what

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Speaker 3: this article of the Geneva Convention is supposed to stop

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Speaker 3: is an army showing up killing a bunch of people

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Speaker 3: and then settling their own population on top of those

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Speaker 3: people's corpses. And that is fucking horrifying. There is you know, obviously, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a reason why the Taiva Convention was like holy shit, like,

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Speaker 3: we can't have this. Yeah, but you know, obviously this

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Speaker 3: hasn't stopped you know this, this hasn't actually stopped this

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Speaker 3: from happening. Like we we now live in effectively the

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Speaker 3: new golden age of ethnic cleansing, right, I mean, the

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Speaker 3: the one point two million Gossens you fled their homes

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Speaker 3: after the Israelis told them to literally told them to

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Speaker 3: flee or die, which is that that's by the way,

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Speaker 3: and I don't want to be very clear about this.

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Speaker 3: When people talk about an evacuation order, that's what that is, right,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is an an evacuation order from like

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Speaker 3: a tsunami, right, Like, It's not like there's a natural

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Speaker 3: disaster coming. The thing that is happening is the Israeli

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Speaker 3: government has said you must leave now or we are

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Speaker 3: going to kill you. And you know, and of course,

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Speaker 3: the the the other bleak side of this, right is

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Speaker 3: that with the the quote unquote evacuation order, the Israelis

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Speaker 3: killed people who were fleeing anyways, but.

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Speaker 5: You know, and they had nowhere to fucking go, like

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Speaker 5: they yeah, right, Like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, evacuate does make it seem like a very like

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Speaker 4: humanitarian crisis, when really that you're right, But all they're

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Speaker 4: saying is like leave now or die in the next hours,

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean? Yeah, And evacuation that's like

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Speaker 4: a threat, Like it's just a death threat.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. If I was to like stand outside your bedroom

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Speaker 5: and pull the pin on a grenade and be like,

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Speaker 5: I'm giving you an evacuation order. Oh, and I'm going

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Speaker 5: to eat this grenade in here in five seconds, people

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Speaker 5: wouldn't be like, oh, that's reasonable. Turn the doors to

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Speaker 5: your house as well, just for funzies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and so and so. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is this is, this is what's been happening in Gaza.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: You won't put you a million gozzens. You fled their

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Speaker 3: homes and they've joined the one hundred and twenty thousand

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Speaker 3: Armenians who are ethnically cleansed from the Garl Kara back

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Speaker 3: by by Jean in September, Which this is the era

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Speaker 3: we're living in right now, is an unfathomable era of

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Speaker 3: violence and ethnic cleansing, right like none of none of

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Speaker 3: the international legal frameworks like did shit none, none of

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Speaker 3: none of the sort of you know like that, none

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Speaker 3: of them never again stuff like n you can you

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Speaker 3: can you can literally like you can ethnically cleanse your

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Speaker 3: own medians again and nothing will fucking happen.

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Speaker 5: The rag in Myanmar, we didn't do shit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean right now we're we're averaging one one

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Speaker 3: like mascular ethnic cleansing a month Jesus. And that is

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Speaker 3: a fucking unbelievably bleak thing.

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Speaker 4: And it's only done to populations that are systematically like dehumanized,

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like that's the thing that's like, Oh,

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Speaker 4: people are used to seeing this group of people suffer.

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Speaker 4: They're used to seeing these kinds this kind of population

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Speaker 4: just always die and and be I don't know, uh,

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Speaker 4: bomb and stuff. So I think a lot of people

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Speaker 4: just kind of gloss over it because they're just like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this is what happens to them and really keeps happening.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's uh, it's certainly like not a coincidence that,

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Speaker 5: like we there have been other ethnic cleansings right in Africa,

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Speaker 5: and like I said, they're Hinjia Muslims. But like when

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Speaker 5: it happens in the Middle East or the Arab world

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Speaker 5: or where we want to say it, like, it's not

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Speaker 5: Arab world, I guess because it HAPs to Courdash people too,

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Speaker 5: but like yeah, people are like, oh, well, another sad

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Speaker 5: thing has happened, like over there, and then it's very

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Speaker 5: easiestpecuing with the way American news media only focuses on

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Speaker 5: these parts of the world like they just pointed it

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Speaker 5: and like oh, look sad, and then never give the context,

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Speaker 5: like me it was explaining, and never give the background,

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Speaker 5: and then we're blindsided every two years by a fucking

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Speaker 5: genocide or an ethnic cleansing or a mass murder because

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Speaker 5: we don't report on it, and then it pops up

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Speaker 5: again no one understands and yeah, I'm very bleak on

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Speaker 5: the media at the minute.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and I mean I think you know, the

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Speaker 3: important context to understand here is that the absolute horror

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Speaker 3: show that's happening in Gaza right now that Israeli is doing.

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Speaker 3: This is one of the most extreme forms of it

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Speaker 3: they've ever done. But this is something they've been doing

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Speaker 3: from like the fucking moment they took the West Bank.

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Speaker 3: This is this is what they were doing. And again

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Speaker 3: this is what never ended. Really yeah, yeah, kept going.

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Speaker 4: It was like quiet mostly for a while people ignore,

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Speaker 4: but now it's just really loud and it keeps happening though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and you know, I think the the

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Speaker 3: oh god, what a blank on the like continuous knock.

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Speaker 3: But thing is is the way that it's understood, well,

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Speaker 3: is what it's called in Palestine. In sort of set

387
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Speaker 3: of the colonial studies, the line that people always say

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Speaker 3: is that centered colonialism is structure, not an event. Like

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Speaker 3: I said, it's not a thing that just ends right.

390
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Speaker 3: It just is it. It is that, you know, it

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Speaker 3: is the air that you breathe. It's the sort of

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Speaker 3: you know, like it's it's it's, it's, it's, it's it's

393
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Speaker 3: it's the walls of the society that have been built

394
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Speaker 3: to yeah, cage and destroy people. Now, you know, the

395
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Speaker 3: the Israelis again, this is the thing that when when

396
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Speaker 3: when when sixty seven happens? This is actually it's kind

397
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Speaker 3: of a turning point in the sense that like there

398
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Speaker 3: are groups of liberals who had supported the Israelis in

399
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Speaker 3: forty eight who were like whoa hold on, hold on,

400
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Speaker 3: Like this is actually like really stunningly illegal and this

401
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,439
Speaker 3: doesn't do anything. But there's a lot of people who

402
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 3: make it, who make a distinction between Israel in forty

403
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Speaker 3: eight and this Israel because this Israel, like the mask

404
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 3: is off. There's nothing. There's nothing there anymore, right, It's

405
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Speaker 3: just we we have seized this land by military force,

406
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Speaker 3: by attacking a country who we were not at war with,

407
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Speaker 3: and we are now like systematically replacing the population of

408
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Speaker 3: these places with our population. And the consequence of this,

409
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Speaker 3: this this is Israel settler population. The consequence of this

410
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Speaker 3: is that there's now it's hard to get accurate numbers

411
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Speaker 3: because these people, in theory aren't supposed to be there.

412
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Speaker 3: But there's something like five hundred somewhere between four and

413
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Speaker 3: fifteen and five hundred thousand Israeli settlers in the West

414
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Speaker 3: Bank and another like two hundred thousand in East Jerusalem.

415
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Speaker 3: And this means that the settler population in if you

416
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Speaker 3: count both the West Bank and East Jerusalem, this is

417
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Speaker 3: about seven percent of the total population of Israel that

418
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Speaker 3: that are now these settlers. And these settlers are I

419
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Speaker 3: don't know. This is this is like, I guess what

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Speaker 3: you would call Israel's colonial frontier, in the sense that

421
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Speaker 3: like these are the people who were like on the

422
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Speaker 3: absolute front lines of Palestinian dispossession of like killing people

423
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Speaker 3: taking their stuff.

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Speaker 5: Settlers is almost a misnomer because they're not like it's

425
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Speaker 5: not like sometimes I think that constructs a notion of

426
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Speaker 5: like unsettled territory and they're settling on it. Right, these

427
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 5: people are violently colonizing someone else's land. Yeah, which which

428
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Speaker 5: which was which was also true of the American Like yes, yeah,

429
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Speaker 5: very much. So, yeah we should write here, yeah hit

430
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Speaker 5: here or pioneers and pioneer ship people live there for

431
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Speaker 5: ten per thousand of VI.

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Speaker 3: They were pioneers. Yeah. But like the way that the

433
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Speaker 3: state thinks about its own geography is in the terms

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Speaker 3: of these frontiers sometimes they call the buffer areas, and

435
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 3: they they they think about these things as these these

436
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 3: areas where they need, you know, of of projection of

437
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: military control, the projection of sort of their their power

438
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 3: and also sort of settler power and these kinds of

439
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 3: you know, and this is this is this is what

440
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 3: what the sort of settler populations the West Bank are

441
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: the front line of Now, these people are subsidized by

442
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 3: the Israeli government that if you if you if you

443
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 3: go to these places, you get tax breaks, you get

444
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 3: you know, they're they're there. There's there's there's there's sort

445
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 3: of there's a whole variety of sort of government subsidies

446
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 3: for these people. They also get very and this is

447
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 3: this is the thing that I think is really interesting

448
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 3: that isn't discussed very much. These really like social services

449
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 3: in the West Bank are very very good. In some cases,

450
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 3: they're they're better than the stuff that's in like Jerusalem

451
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 3: or in like the other the other parts of Israel.

452
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 3: And you know, all this and this acts is sort

453
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 3: of as part of these sort of incentive package to

454
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 3: get people to move into these settler regions. Now, and

455
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 3: you know, the these these people reave other benefits too, right,

456
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 3: They have enormous, an enormous degree of military protection. And

457
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 3: this is one of the things that Tree and you

458
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 3: talked about this right If you know, if you're trying

459
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 3: to figure out where the fuck was the Israeli are

460
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 3: when mass attacked, Well, the answer is they were all

461
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,479
Speaker 3: in the fucking West Bank helping a bunch of settlers

462
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 3: steel Land, right, which which.

463
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 4: You settlers terrorizing Palestinian Yeah, yeah, what's happening, And that

464
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 4: happens all the time, but just so happened to happen

465
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 4: on this very large scale attack yep.

466
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 3: And the level of violence that's happening here, you know,

467
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 3: I mean we're going to talk about the more direct

468
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: settler of violence, like these are these people they these

469
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 3: are people who have set multiple babies on fire like

470
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 3: that is like they they have set multiple children on fire.

471
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 3: This is this is this is the kind of people

472
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: who you were dealing with when you're talking about especially

473
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 3: So okay, so there's there's a distinction inside of Israeli

474
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: law about which these settlements are legal. So again, under

475
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 3: international law, all of these settlements are illegal. Like there's

476
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: no this is not a black it's a completely black

477
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 3: and white thing. Every single settlement is illegal under Israeli law.

478
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: There are some settlements that they officially approve and some

479
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 3: of them that they don't. And so the ones that

480
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 3: they do approve are the ones that, you know, those

481
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 3: are the ones who better government services, They get rows

482
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 3: and built out to them, and and but there are

483
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 3: kinds of violence here that are you know, there's there's

484
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 3: I guess you call it bureaucratic violence or stuff like

485
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 3: you know, one of the sort of like benefits you

486
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: get of living in the West Bank is like the

487
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 3: Israeli government has diverted basically the entire West Bank's fucking

488
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 3: water supply to fill these peoples swimming pools and this

489
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 3: is water that is you know, the thing that they've

490
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 3: been used for for a very very long time is

491
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: people in the West Bak doing agriculture. But you know

492
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 3: that's becoming you know, growing alves, and it's becoming increasingly

493
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 3: fucking impossible because these Raelis are diverting their fucking water

494
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 3: and then also lighting and then the you know, the

495
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: the government diverts all the water away and then the

496
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 3: settlers light the fucking olive trees on fire. And this

497
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 3: is actually, and this is weirdly a thing that like

498
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 3: almost exactly the same pattern stuff that like Turkey is

499
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 3: under the Kurds too, right, like yeah, like every every

500
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 3: ethic minority, Like yeah, Russia.

501
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 5: Does it to its Kalmic people. It's the story I

502
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 5: hear so often at the border, when talking to people

503
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 5: in any number of languages, many number of countries, is like, oh,

504
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 5: they have cut off the water supply to where we live,

505
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 5: and now we can't live there anymore, like across Africa, sadly,

506
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 5: like yeah, even within Russia, like it's it's like yeah,

507
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 5: like you say, it's genocide by dictat or fucking you know,

508
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 5: it's it's an ethnic cleansing that doesn't look so bad

509
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 5: on TV because it happens a little bit slower, but

510
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 5: it's a way to remove people. And you can look

511
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 5: at like drone pictures of the West Bank and you

512
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 5: can see the little fucking like green lollipops, like the

513
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 5: road and then the settlement right and like people have

514
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 5: trees and shit like it's it's wild. Yeah.

515
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 4: I think the unique part about Israel and the settlers

516
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 4: there burning all the olive trees, I feel like I

517
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 4: didn't ever stard about this before. I don't know if

518
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 4: we did, Yeah, but the whole essence of Zionism is

519
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 4: the idea that there's a group of people that are

520
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 4: like meant for this land. And I just find the

521
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 4: olive tree burning the best example of how that's just

522
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 4: like such a bullshit, because if you actually cared about

523
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 4: this ancient land, if you had ties to this ancient land,

524
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 4: you wouldn't want to burn this like native plant that's

525
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 4: been there for thousands of years, that's been the source

526
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 4: of all the economies for Palestinians, all this stuff. I

527
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 4: think it's just the most clear example that Zionism is

528
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 4: not about any kind of connection at all. It's just

529
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 4: about power and land and not about the not land

530
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 4: in the sense of like the architecture or the history

531
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 4: or the nature is just about i don't know, like

532
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 4: a land grab, like just colonial land grap Yeah.

533
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: Well, and I think I think, I think the fundamental

534
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: thing at play here, and this is the sort of

535
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: one of the fundamental tenets of setular colonialism, is that

536
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: these people see land as a commodity, right, they see they,

537
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 3: they see they they they only see land in terms

538
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 3: of things they can buy and sell on, things they

539
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 3: can possess.

540
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a fundamental tenet of the state really, right,

541
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 5: Like the more like square miles you could bring under

542
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 5: your like where you have a monopoly and legitimate use

543
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 5: of violence, like the more important you are as a state,

544
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 5: and so like this this is a problem of states.

545
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we will we will get into this more

546
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: in a second, but first we need to go to ads.

547
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 3: So the Israeli settlers are a real problem for everyone

548
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: who supports Israel because it it is it is really

549
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 3: really hard to be sort of you know, take take

550
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: your sort of like liberal humanitarian stance on like Israel

551
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 3: has the right to protect itself blah, blah blah blah

552
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: and then cure these like yahoos and the hills lighting

553
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: children on fire, and you know, I mean, and this

554
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 3: is the thing where even even like very reliably pro

555
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 3: Issuo groups at the Council on Foreign Relations are like,

556
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: whoa nelly, these guys are messed up. And I mean,

557
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: and you can find writing for them. And they've been

558
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: writing about this for a long time because this is

559
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: all stuff that's been It's been very very obvious of

560
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: what was going to happen, right like the you know,

561
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 3: the level of violence is going to ramp up that

562
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: like all the stuff, none of the stuff is happening now,

563
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: I mean like it's I guess this is one of

564
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,479
Speaker 3: those things is like everything is impossible until it happens

565
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: or whatever. But you know, all of all of the

566
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: stuff that's happening is I mean, like if you just

567
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: spend any time looking at what was happening in the

568
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: two thousand and twenty tens, nothing that's happening now is

569
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: like particularly surprising.

570
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 6: Now.

571
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: What what's very interesting about the settlers though, is that Okay,

572
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: so when when the Council of Formulations, the Council of

573
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 3: Formulations went in and was like, okay, so what is

574
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: with these people?

575
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: Right?

576
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: They assumed initially that you know, okay, so you know

577
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: they're there, take a sort of liberal like pros and

578
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: lines that like, okay, well, these these settlers must be

579
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: responding to Palestinian violence. And no, it turns out actually,

580
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: not only are these are these attacks not like retaliatory, right,

581
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 3: it's it's it's not that like the settler communities were

582
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: being attacked by Palastinians and they were taking back. Settler

583
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 3: violence is actually inversely correlated with the level of armed

584
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: struggle being carried up with Palestinians. So the era of

585
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 3: settler violence ramp up is the late two thousands and

586
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: the twenty tens. And this is the period, you know,

587
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 3: if you know anything about like the Second Defauntity, this

588
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: is the period where like Palaestinians doing armed struggle in

589
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 3: like all of the different forms is tapering off and

590
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: so and this leads people kind of confused as to

591
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 3: what the fuck is happening here? And so okay, so

592
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 3: we can ask, like what is actually driving the violence

593
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: of these sort of settler expansions. And the thing most

594
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 3: people focus on is ideology and religion because a huge number,

595
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: although it should be mentioned. Okay, So like a lot

596
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 3: of settlers are what are like, what are religious Zionists

597
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: who are people and a lot of these are there's

598
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: like a specific religious Zionist party that we'll talk about

599
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: a bit later who are like specifically Orthodox Jews, but

600
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: like there's a lot of right wing religious like Zionists

601
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 3: of like various stripes who you know, and there are

602
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 3: things that they believe that they have a god given

603
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 3: right to take whatever land they want and what they

604
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 3: call quote Judea and Samaria, which is the West Bank,

605
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 3: and they believe that they just have the right to

606
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 3: take this land. Yeah, and if anyone tries to stop them,

607
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 3: they will kill them or drive them from their homes.

608
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 3: And it's true that these people exist, right and these

609
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 3: people obviously, and we're going to get into this more

610
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: in a second, Like these people have had a profound

611
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 3: influence on Israeli politics. But on the other hands, they're

612
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: not they are a lot of the settlers, they're not

613
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: the entire settler population. In fact, there's a lot of

614
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: settlers who are not these people. And the other thing

615
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: about trying to purely explain in the dynamics of violence

616
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: by by ideologies. It can't explain why, really. I mean,

617
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: there's a kind of like a breakwater event where so

618
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: so there used to be settlers in Gaza too, and

619
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 3: these Raelis pulled them out when they pulled out of

620
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 3: Gaza two thousand and five, and that pissed off the

621
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 3: settlers enormously, right, And this is part of one of

622
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 3: the things that leads to the sort of settler violent

623
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 3: turn was they were like, well, okay, so if the

624
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 3: Israeli government isn't going to, like I don't know if

625
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: the Israeli government one time will stop po legal settlements

626
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 3: from happening, we need to like make sure that we

627
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 3: are violence enough that it'll they'll never try to get

628
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: rid of another settlement settlement again. And that kind of

629
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: explains the violence uptake, but it doesn't explain all of it. Actually,

630
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 3: So sorry, before I launched into this, I should Asktuary,

631
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 3: were you gonna say, sorry.

632
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 4: No, it's okay. I just wanted to make a really

633
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: important distinction that like, Zionism is not a religion per se,

634
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 4: and it's a political ideology, right, Like you can be

635
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 4: Christian and Zionists, you can be Jewish and Zionists I've

636
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 4: had multiple anti Zionist Jewish people on the show, and

637
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: I feel like they're very important in the fight for

638
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 4: Palicy liberation. But I think that's a really important distinction

639
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 4: because Zionism is fairly new. It's not like this ancient religion.

640
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,719
Speaker 4: It was like the late eighth Yeah, the late eighteen

641
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 4: hundreds is when it really like became formed into what

642
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 4: it is today.

643
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 3: So I think that's.

644
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 4: Really important to remember, is that Zionism itself is not

645
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 4: this like deep spiritual thing that a lot of Zionists

646
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 4: claim it is. It is just fucking politics and there's

647
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 4: bad politics.

648
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 3: And I think the other important thing about it too,

649
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: and this is something that has been changing. But like Zionism,

650
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 3: most Zionists, like when Israel was formed, were secular, Like

651
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: they were secularist, right, A lot of these people were leftists,

652
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: they were secularists. They weren't. And the emergence of this

653
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: religious Zionism stuff, this is like, this is stuff that

654
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 3: started happening really in like the eighties. So this is

655
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: like forty years old, right, Like billions of people on

656
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 3: Earth are older than this kind of religious Zionism. Yeah,

657
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 3: And so the kind of transition from more secular forms

658
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 3: of Zionism to more religious forms of Zionism. Is this

659
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 3: is one of the things like like the claim that

660
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 3: this is the driving thing, like this, this is what

661
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: you'll get a lot from like councilor formulations people and

662
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: sort of like and it's kind of true to some extent.

663
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: But Comma, there's also something else going on here, and

664
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 3: that is the Israeli housing markets. So all right, I swear,

665
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 3: I swear this is connected, but we need we need

666
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 3: to do a tangent through the Israeli housing market. So

667
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 3: all right, so we've talked about how again the rise

668
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: in cellular violence is something that it's it starts in

669
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 3: the late two thousands and accelerates to the twenty tens

670
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 3: and has reached a fever pitch now with like in

671
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: the past like month, they've killed like one hundred and

672
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 3: thirty people in the West Bank. And Okay, so what

673
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 3: actually also was happening in that time And the answer

674
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 3: to that question is that between two thousand and eight

675
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 3: and twenty ten alone. And this is very weird because

676
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 3: again think about the time period that we're in this

677
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight to twenty ten, This is like

678
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: right after two thousand and eight financial collapse. There is

679
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: a thirty five percent increase in housing prices in Israel.

680
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 3: This is nuts, right, Like this everywhere else in the

681
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 3: entire world, Like the price of housing is tanking, in

682
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,720
Speaker 3: Israel is skyrocketing. Okay, the price of housing is increasing

683
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 3: the rate at which the price of housing is also increasing,

684
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 3: it's skyrocketing through the entire twenty tens. And then like,

685
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 3: the rate of increase in the twenty tens looks like

686
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 3: a fucking joke compared to the rate of increase in

687
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 3: the twenty twenties. And these increases coincide with guess what,

688
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 3: the massive increases in cellular violent Now this is interesting

689
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 3: for a number of reasons. One is that you know,

690
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 3: and sometimes every once in a while you will get

691
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 3: like someone will just like, I don't know, some like

692
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 3: councilor formulations. Guy will say like, well, there are settlers

693
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 3: who are there for economic reasons, but what actually does

694
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 3: that mean? Right now, I've been playing kind of fast

695
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 3: and loose with statistics here, right, Like, obviously you can't

696
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 3: just point to okay, one number was increasing at the

697
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 3: same time as an another number of correlation implies causation,

698
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 3: like no it doesn't right that this is too loose

699
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: and the correlation here isn't you know, it's it's not

700
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: quite that simple, but Comma, this is legitimately one of

701
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: the things that's been driving driving Israeli settler violence and

702
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 3: sort of the the expansion of this sort of of

703
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: this sort of Israeli setular project. And at the core

704
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: of this is this fundamental tension with housing in capitalism,

705
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,959
Speaker 3: in which a house and also very importantly the land

706
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 3: that it's on, is two things at the same time. Right,

707
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: the house, a house is a thing that you live in,

708
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 3: but it's also a speculative asset that appreciates in value

709
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 3: over time, or is supposed to appreciate in value over time.

710
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: And when and when, you know, housing values don't go up,

711
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 3: homeowners get very, very very angry because it's also supposed

712
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 3: to be a speculative asset. Now, the sort of technical

713
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 3: terminology for this is that a house is a use value,

714
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 3: which is, you know, it's a house that you live in, right,

715
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 3: and it also has an exchange value, which is its

716
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 3: value on the market. That's a product of the sort

717
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 3: of social relations stuff from the economic system. And with housing,

718
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: it all commodities work like this. With housing in particular,

719
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: the two sort of natures of this commodity work against

720
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 3: each other. Right, if you want a house, and you

721
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: want a house because you want to live in it,

722
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: you want, you know, you want the price to be

723
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 3: as low as possible, right you you want for houses

724
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 3: to be speculative assets, like as little as humanly possible.

725
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, if you want a house

726
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 3: because you are you know, say a real estate firm

727
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 3: or land speculator, or you know, you're just you're buying

728
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 3: a house is like an investment, you want the price

729
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,439
Speaker 3: to be as high as possible because it doesn't matter

730
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 3: to you if people actually use the house live in it.

731
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: All.

732
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 3: All that matters is that you're getting money from this house.

733
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 3: And you know, I something I've talked about a lot

734
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 3: on this show, and since really the nineties when Japan

735
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 3: figured this out, housing has been like these speculative asset

736
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 3: par excellans is the thing you dump all of your

737
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 3: money into when you have a bunch of money sitting

738
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 3: around that you can't turn into more capital. And you

739
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 3: know this, but the problem is that this creates these

740
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 3: massive like housing bubbles that makes like housing and rents

741
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 3: increasingly unaffordable for everyone. Now, you could address this by

742
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 3: you know, addressing a dual nature of the commodity and

743
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: transforming your economy in such a way that houses are

744
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 3: not commodities and thus you know, is a use value

745
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: and is a place to live and not you know,

746
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 3: like a financial asset. But nobody's gonna do that, right,

747
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: because that requires like a systemic transformation. If you're like,

748
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 3: this requires you to abolish capitalism, right, So instead of

749
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 3: doing this, right, the other thing you can do when

750
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 3: housing prices are really high is you can go kill

751
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 3: someone and take their lands. And yeah, you know, and

752
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 3: you know, I mean this is this is a very

753
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 3: old American sort of colonial I don't even know, I

754
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 3: think this is where it's from, but like, yeah, the.

755
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 5: Every empire, so right, Like, working people can't afford to

756
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 5: live with dignity, so we've fucking shipped them off. So

757
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 5: they strip someone else's dignity and make their fortune on

758
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 5: someone else's land.

759
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because the cheapest land is land that's paid

760
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 3: with someone else's blood.

761
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

762
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 3: Now I'm going to read from a little bit from

763
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: a very very I really recommend people actually read this

764
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 3: because it's a really interesting view of the occupation. I'm

765
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 3: going to read from a piece called Hostile Intelligence, Reflections

766
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 3: on a Visit to the West Bank, written by David Graber.

767
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: This is from twenty fifteen, but you know, this is

768
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 3: one of the things about about the occupation is that

769
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 3: if you're any given point in time, if you are

770
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 3: looking at what's happening in the occupation, you can unfold

771
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 3: the dynamics that are going to be that are going

772
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 3: to be the future of the occupation. So here's David Graeber. First,

773
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: the settlements. They were originally the product of a relatively isolated,

774
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 3: if well funded collection of religious zealots. Now everything seems

775
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 3: to be organized around them. The government pours and endless resources. Why.

776
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 3: The answer seems to be that, since at least the nineties,

777
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: right wing politicians in Israel have figured out that the

778
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 3: settlements are a kind of political magic. The more money

779
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 3: gets funneled into them, the more the Jewish electorate turns

780
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 3: to the right. The reason is simple is reel as expensive.

781
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 3: Housing inside the nineteen forty eight boundaries is exorbitantly expensive.

782
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 3: If you are a young person without means, increasingly have

783
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 3: two options to live with one's parents until well into

784
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 3: your thirties, or find a place in illegal settlements where

785
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 3: apartments cost perhaps a third of what they would in

786
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: High Offer or Tel Aviv. And that's not to mention

787
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,439
Speaker 3: the superior roads, schools, utilities, and social services. At this point,

788
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 3: the vast majority of settlers live on the West Bank

789
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 3: for economic, not ideological reasons. And this is something that like,

790
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 3: this is actually kind of reversing now just because of

791
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: how like how far right and how the spread of

792
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 3: like sort of like ideological like right wing stuff is spread.

793
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: But this is at the time then twenty fifteen, this

794
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 3: was true. Yeah, and this is especially true around Jerusalem.

795
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: But consider who these people are in the past, young

796
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 3: people in difficult circumstances, students, well educated, young parents have

797
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 3: been the traditional constituency of the left. Put these same

798
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: people into settlements and they will inexorably without even realizing it,

799
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 3: begin to think like fascists are in their own way,

800
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 3: giant engines for the production of right wing consciousness. Is

801
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 3: very difficult for someone placed in a hostile territory given

802
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: training in automatic weapons and warn't constantly to be on

803
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 3: one's guard against local populations seething over the fact that

804
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 3: your next door neighbors have been killing their sheep and

805
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 3: destroying their olive trees, not to gradually see ethno nationalism

806
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 3: as common sense. As a result, with every election, the

807
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 3: old left electorate further dissipates, and a host of religious

808
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 3: fascist or semi fascist parties. When a larger and larger

809
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: stake of the vote for politicians who can barely think

810
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 3: past the next election, lure is inescapable. And so I

811
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 3: think this gets at the core of what's happening, specifically

812
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 3: what's happening in the West Bank, which is that, Yeah,

813
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 3: these settlements are you know, I mean, if you were

814
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 3: trying to generate in a lab a place where you

815
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: could turn a bunch of people into fascists, it would

816
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 3: be it would be these settlements. And for more on that,

817
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,280
Speaker 3: come back tomorrow when we finish this conversation. In the meantime,

818
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 3: this has been nickuld appen here. Thanks for joining us,

819
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 3: see you tomorrow. Welcome to Dickudappan here, a podcast that

820
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 3: is once again about Palestine. Hopefully you listen to yesterday's

821
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 3: episode of this. One's going to be a little bit

822
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 3: out of sorts, but yeah, we are continuing and finishing

823
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 3: upper conversation about Israel and setular colonialism. So strap in

824
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,280
Speaker 3: and enjoy the show. If you were trying to generate

825
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 3: in a lab a place where you could turn a

826
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: bunch of people into fascists, it would be it would

827
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 3: be these settlements. This has a bunch of downstream political effects, right.

828
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 3: One of them is that, okay, so whose lands are

829
00:43:58,480 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 3: you taking here?

830
00:43:59,600 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: Right?

831
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 3: The answer here is it's a lot of Palestinian farmers.

832
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,959
Speaker 3: And you know, once you kick farmers off their land,

833
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 3: they can't be farmers anymore. And this leaves them with

834
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 3: two choices one flee pal sign altogether. And this is

835
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 3: really really hard. We talked about it on this show.

836
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 3: It is really really difficult to get out or your

837
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 3: other option is to become cheap labor for Israeli capitalists.

838
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 3: And this is an another part of the sort of

839
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 3: self reinforcing dynamic of these engines, right, is like, you know,

840
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 3: if if you're dealing with the population that doesn't have

841
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 3: the means to support themselves except for you know, the

842
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 3: these Israeli like work passes that they like, you know,

843
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 3: like bestow upon the benighted population, likes it makes it

844
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 3: incredibly hard for there to be any sort of physicist movement.

845
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 3: And you know the other thing that David Greab was

846
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: pointing out that you know, he was I think like

847
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: ahead of the curve on in a lot of ways.

848
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 3: Is I mean, this has been happening for a long time,

849
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 3: but these really like electoral left is just gone. Israeli Labor,

850
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 3: which is like the like Israeli Labor is the party

851
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 3: that built Israel right, like it was Israeli Labor guys

852
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: who like pulled together the entire Zionist coalition and like

853
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 3: turned them into the engine that could actually win the war.

854
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 3: In forty eight, Labor was outperformed by fucking Handash in

855
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 3: the most recent election. This has happened several times now.

856
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: Hadash is an alliance of the Israeli communists and like

857
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 3: left Arab nationalists. And when I say they do better,

858
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 3: it's not to say that Hadash is doing well, but

859
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 3: like you know, they're both pulling at like four percent right,

860
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 3: and Israeli Labor again like has ruled is ruled Israel

861
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 3: for like a like a very magnificant part of his history.

862
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 3: They are now nothing. Right, there's four percent of the vote.

863
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 3: They have the same amount of vote as the oldest,

864
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 3: as the Israeli like, and specifically I should mention this

865
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 3: is this is the this is the like anti occupation communists.

866
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 3: This is another one of the sort of dynamics of

867
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: settlerism that you know, the sort of is universally true, right,

868
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 3: this is it's not just Israel where a bunch of

869
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 3: people who are nominally left. It's a bunch of people

870
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 3: who like you know, fought in their own liberation struggles

871
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 3: and get turned into just like absolutely fanatical right wingers.

872
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 3: There are an enormous number of United Irishmen, rebels from

873
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 3: the rebellion of eighteen seventy eight in Ireland who go

874
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: to the US and you know, wind up A bunch

875
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 3: of these people wind up in the American Army. A

876
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 3: bunch of these people wind up like I mean, I

877
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: guess it's technically not the Indian Wars, but like a

878
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 3: lot of these people wind up like fighting the Creeks

879
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 3: in eighteen twelve. These people could become the front line

880
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 3: of settler expansion in the US. And this all this

881
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 3: happens again with like German and French like liberals and

882
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 3: socialists who flee the crushing of the eighteen forty eight revolutions.

883
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 3: It actually almost happened to Marx. He wound up not

884
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 3: going to the US. But there's a lot of settlers,

885
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 3: Like there's a lot of like of European socialists who

886
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: come to the US and see all of this land

887
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 3: and they go, oh shit, we can solve, like we

888
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: can solve the problems of the old world. But it's

889
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 3: taking this land.

890
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, having our little like a utopian socialist settlements. Was

891
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:11,240
Speaker 5: it Owen's or Jones or someone? They had these like yeah, yeah,

892
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 5: quake k utopian sort of settlement towns in someone else's land.

893
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, And that's one of the ways has happened there.

894
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 3: There are other ways this happens too, where it's just people.

895
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 3: You know, it's not it's not even always utopian communities.

896
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 3: People a lot of and and this this is also

897
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 3: so okay. There are people who come over from the

898
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 3: eighteen forty eight revolutions who like, you know, like August

899
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 3: von Willich is probably the most famous one. Like he's

900
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 3: a communist who ends up like fighting for the Union

901
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 3: and then notably not fighting in the Indian Wars after.

902
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 3: But you know, a lot of these people they come

903
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: to the US and they're like, okay, well, so they're

904
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: like the fundamental contradiction to capitalism or whatever is that, like,

905
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 3: you know, people like people, people are forced to become like,

906
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 3: as they would literally call it, like the wage slaves

907
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: of capital, right. And so these people take a bunch

908
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 3: of just incredibly bizarre stances, Like one they're they're they're

909
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,839
Speaker 3: they're against the abolition of slavery because they they're like, oh, well,

910
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 3: if you free the slaves, these people are going to

911
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 3: compete with us for wage labor. So either either they're

912
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 3: pro slavery or they're like slavery the like ending slavery

913
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 3: is the thing they can only happen with the end

914
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 3: of capitalism, so we don't care about it. Or and

915
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 3: this is a very common thing that this is one

916
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 3: of them. This is i think much closer to the

917
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 3: Israeli dynamic. Is these people become convinced that like the

918
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 3: the you know, the problem with Europe, right is that,

919
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 3: you know, Europe is entirely ruled by either feudalist or

920
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: like feudal bearers or capitalist right, and so there's no

921
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 3: way for someone to like make like make themselves in

922
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 3: the world, right, there there's no way for them to

923
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 3: be independent like of the capitalist class. But in but

924
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 3: in the US, there is because all you have to

925
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: do is, you know, instead of being part of the

926
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 3: like the industrial proletariat or whatever and getting like crushed

927
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 3: by the Buddha capital, you can just go become a

928
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 3: settler farmer. And this is like, this is one of

929
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 3: the defining ideologies of the US, Like Abraham Lincoln talks

930
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 3: about this, like the thing that makes the US different

931
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 3: from Europe is that like, yeah, you can you can

932
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,439
Speaker 3: go be a settler, you can get your own land.

933
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 3: And this is something you can also trace back to

934
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 3: the foundation of Israel. Israel is created you know, there

935
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 3: are there are there are right wings Zionists, right, but

936
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: it's also created by liberal socialist, communists and even anarchists

937
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 3: who'd fought in the Spanish Civil War who go to

938
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 3: Israel become like become Zionists, are armed by Stalin and

939
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 3: these people create like you know, these are the people

940
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 3: who do the knappa.

941
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, lots of people were also there were Jewish I

942
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 5: guess socialists is probably the best term for them, who

943
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 5: would come to fight in Spain and then returned to Yeah,

944
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 5: people interested run and reign has done a really good

945
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 5: paper about some of people in international brigades. So not

946
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 5: a lot of them turned out to do the Knakpa.

947
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 5: To be clear, yes, some of them were. It's actually

948
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 5: also it's actually really sad to follow the plight of

949
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 5: the It's a slight divergence, I guess. But Jewish people

950
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 5: who had fled programs in the early twentieth century grown

951
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 5: up largely in New York in extremely impoverished neighborhoods fort

952
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 5: fascism in Spain, came home, fought fascism again in the

953
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 5: rest of Europe after like pointing at it in nineteen

954
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 5: thirty five and going bad in America going now dog wigged,

955
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 5: and then in nineteen forty one going who could have

956
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 5: foreseen this? And then they come in the meantime they

957
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 5: see Stalin signing a pact with fascism, right, and they

958
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 5: feel horribly betrayed and have to have to deal with

959
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 5: either leaving the Communist Party or working out in their

960
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 5: own head how the fuck the people who kill their

961
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 5: friends and now their friends. And then they come home

962
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 5: after the war, they're blacklisted under McCarthy, and they see

963
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 5: the nuck but happening, you know, like later on and

964
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 5: they they're disgusted, right, like they everything that, like every

965
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 5: sort of like identity in group that they've had, they

966
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 5: feel has turned against the things that they think are

967
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 5: morally right. And they have these really difficult lives despite

968
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 5: like pursuing what most of us would agree is in

969
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 5: moral good throughout their lives.

970
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, being being consistently moral fucking sucks and that is

971
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 3: a behind. Yeah yeah, it is a fucking awful time

972
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 3: to do that.

973
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah sucks.

974
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, we should take another ad break and.

975
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:27,280
Speaker 5: Then, yeah, adverts are not consistently moral. Who very unlikely.

976
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 3: And we are back. So we've been talking about the

977
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 3: capacity of settlements to change someone's politics, right, it is,

978
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 3: you know, it's as these labs of consciousness that produce

979
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 3: certain kinds of right wing politics and mentalities and you know,

980
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 3: and produce right wing soldiers.

981
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 5: Right.

982
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 3: But the settlements also do other things. And one of

983
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 3: those things that they do is the settlements are a

984
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 3: big reason, you know, if you were invested in the

985
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 3: peace process, like this is a big reason why the

986
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 3: peace process failed was that the settlers never had any

987
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 3: intentions of abiding by any of the treaties that were

988
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 3: being signed by the israelis right, and this is something

989
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 3: that is true transhistorically, right. This is a dynamic you

990
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 3: see in American history too. The US signs like hundreds

991
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 3: of treaties with like like just incredible numbers and indigenous nations.

992
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 3: And do you know how many of those trees I

993
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 3: end up upholding.

994
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's none.

995
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know, I mean you can look at

996
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court, right, and you know, the Supreme Court

997
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,919
Speaker 3: will uphold laws from like seventeen ninety five, right.

998
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

999
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 3: The one kind of law they will mod uphold is

1000
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 3: their treaty obligations, at which in which case they will

1001
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 3: go literally they will just go, well, we are obligated

1002
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 3: to do this under treaty, but it is too hard,

1003
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: so fuck you.

1004
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, they'll go previous to that and

1005
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 5: treat site the fucking Doctrine of Discovery or the Treaty

1006
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 5: of Cso yeah, good old Ruth Bede Againsberg liberal hero.

1007
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1008
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 3: And so you can look at this from sort of

1009
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 3: two perspectives, right. You can look at this from this

1010
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 3: perspective of the state, and you can look at it

1011
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 3: from the respective of the settler. And you know, I mean,

1012
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 3: and I think I think I think there's a there's

1013
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 3: a third view that's kind of sees them both as

1014
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 3: an extension of the same thing, which is what we're

1015
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 3: gonna sort of come to. But you know, you can

1016
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,399
Speaker 3: you can look at this treaty stuff, and you can

1017
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 3: look at the fact that you know, both the settlers

1018
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 3: and the Israeli governments like sign the Oslo Accords fully

1019
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: intending to do more settlements, right, and this is this

1020
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 3: is something that that like the Palestinians are watching, right,

1021
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 3: Like if you're a Palasidian, like you are watching these

1022
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 3: piece of acords get signed and then you are watching

1023
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 3: the Israelis fucking bulldozing your house. Yeah, and and this

1024
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 3: is this is this is the thing in the US too, Right.

1025
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 3: It's like everyone who signs a treaty get like like

1026
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 3: all of the nation to sign trees get a get

1027
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 3: a watch as the US is like, oh well, actually,

1028
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 3: like no, we've never had any intention of like fulfilling this,

1029
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: Like no, We're just gonna keep exterminating you and like

1030
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 3: chasing the sort of like like shattered remnants of your

1031
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 3: tribes like literally across the entire fucking continents. And you know,

1032
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 3: so so you can look at this from the from

1033
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 3: the perspective of this, and you know, like like dealing

1034
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 3: dealing with the American state, Like it is well known

1035
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 3: by every nation and every race that has ever had

1036
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 3: to deal with them that the white man is duplicitous

1037
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 3: in a state is built on lies, and that is

1038
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 3: only kind of a joke. Like everyone who fucking deals

1039
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,439
Speaker 3: with the Americans just like, what the fuck is wrong

1040
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 3: with these people? Like do you like do people like

1041
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 3: not understand what an agreement is?

1042
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 5: Like what you know, Yeah, this is something that like

1043
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 5: I know, if you travel abroad and you work in

1044
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 5: places where American forces have been nine times out of ten,

1045
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 5: someone will sit you down in a tea house or

1046
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 5: a coffee house and unbidden just be like, what the

1047
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 5: fuck is wrong with these people? Like like why do

1048
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 5: they treat us like that? Like like we fucking did

1049
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 5: everything you asked and then you fucking abandoned us or

1050
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 5: killed us, Like like yeah, like everywhere, and its course

1051
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 5: Sprain does it too. I'm not saying like America spectrum,

1052
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 5: but fuck me, America in the last two hundred years

1053
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 5: is really setting you precedent for just like Jane has

1054
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 5: faced bullshit.

1055
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, and and and this, and this

1056
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 3: particularly bad when you're dealing with when you're dealing with settlers,

1057
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 3: because you know, one of the things about the state

1058
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 3: is that the arc of the state policy and settler

1059
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 3: colonies always bends towards injustice in general, and in particular

1060
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 3: the thing it always bends towards land seizures. It seeks

1061
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: to expand its base of power, it's territorial base in

1062
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 3: its economy, which leads it to push as far as

1063
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 3: it possibly can towards dispossessing the indigenous population. Now, this

1064
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 3: is also the interest of settlers, who act as a

1065
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,359
Speaker 3: kind of extension of the state that goes beyond its

1066
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 3: normal capacity to do what it wants to do. And

1067
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 3: you know, in the US, the human manifestation of this

1068
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 3: is Andrew Jackson, who is a man who completely illegally

1069
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 3: on multiple occasions, just like conquered Florida and you know,

1070
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 3: conquered Florida specifically. And this is one of the like

1071
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 3: a couple of things. This is what I have a

1072
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 3: very good friend who talks about this a lot because

1073
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 3: they've they've been studying this period immensely. You're probably not listening,

1074
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 3: but love you, Yeah, but talks about this a lot,

1075
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 3: which is that Andrew Jackson is like a big part

1076
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 3: of the reason why he's going into Florida is specifically

1077
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 3: because he he wants to smash these these like indigenous

1078
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 3: like black indigenous, like Allied Buron communities there. And so Jackson,

1079
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 3: you know, jack Jackson like is is like under orders

1080
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 3: not to invade Florida. He invades Florida. Anyways, you know,

1081
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 3: we we we get we're there's a very similar sort

1082
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 3: of tension between like the courts and you know, like

1083
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 3: the courts in the settler state that you have with

1084
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 3: the sort of international community in Israel now, where like

1085
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 3: the courts are like Andrew Jackson, you cannot do the

1086
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 3: trail of tears. And Andrew Jackson is just like fuck you,

1087
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 3: Like we're doing the trail of tears. Where we're going,

1088
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:41,360
Speaker 3: We're going to do a genocide and you know, and

1089
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 3: and the thing the thing about what Jackson represents, right

1090
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 3: is that Jackson is is the human embodiments of all

1091
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 3: of these sort of structural like he's the human and

1092
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 3: political embodiment of all of these structural tendencies et cetera. Colonialism.

1093
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 3: Now one and one of the things that that's I

1094
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 3: think is interesting about this is that there are like

1095
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: all of the settler states, right you see this in

1096
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 3: like every single one. And I'm gonna talk about the

1097
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 3: US because that's the one that I like other than Israel,

1098
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 3: that I know the best. Well, I don't probably probabilia

1099
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 3: like the US better than Israel. But there are always

1100
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 3: times when this when when this the federal government tries

1101
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 3: to crack down on settlers, right, this happens like repeatedly.

1102
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 3: I mean this, and this is the thing even like

1103
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 3: like the British are like spend a lot of time

1104
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 3: trying to stop the colonists from like moving like from

1105
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 3: moving west. And I think that there's a lot of

1106
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 3: people who like have come to believe that if they

1107
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 3: if the British had won the American Revolution, that they

1108
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 3: would have been able to stop the settlers. And no,

1109
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 3: like they wouldn't have been able to. They would have

1110
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 3: been able to maybe they could have delayed it by

1111
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 3: twenty years, but no, there was there was no one

1112
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 3: has ever really been able to stop these people. And

1113
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 3: you know, the the IDF, like we talked about this

1114
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 3: a bit earlier, right, the IDEF in two thousand and five,

1115
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 3: did pull Like when they pulled out of Gaza, they

1116
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 3: dragged like eight thousand center settlers with them. But again

1117
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 3: this is this is them like that's incredibly familiar to

1118
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 3: anyone who studied the history of settlers in the US,

1119
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 3: is that government attempts to control settler expansion inevitably fail

1120
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 3: when convented with the the you know, the these unstoppable

1121
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: twin economic and twin imperatives of the economic benefit to

1122
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 3: the settlers, and also the sort of speculative the speculative

1123
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 3: value of these of this new land, the land speculators.

1124
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 3: But then the the other problem is the inevitable rise

1125
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 3: of the settlers themselves as the political bloc, which in

1126
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:32,920
Speaker 3: the US, the man who is the champion of the

1127
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 3: settlers is Andrew Jackson. And this is you know, and

1128
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 3: when he comes into and when when he starts taking power,

1129
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:39,919
Speaker 3: when he starts getting power in the army, you get

1130
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 3: the conquest of Florida, and when he becomes president, you

1131
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 3: have you have the trailer tears. And Israel, this is

1132
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 3: this is represented by Israel's overtly genocidal finance bits at

1133
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 3: Betsial Simotrich, who represents the Religious Zionist Party and uh,

1134
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 3: I'll give you all three guesses what those guys believe.

1135
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 3: If your guesses are they are unhinged settler racists and

1136
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 3: like turbo homophobes. You're you're right on the buddy.

1137
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, so he's a conspiracy theorist, Like yeah, yeah, this

1138
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 5: guy is unhinged.

1139
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:21,520
Speaker 4: They're very open with their genocidal yeah yeah once, Like

1140
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 4: there's no there's no subtlety. They're just like, let's let's

1141
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 4: flatten what, Let's flatten Gauza, Let's kill them all, you

1142
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 4: know what I mean. It's just like theyage seem like

1143
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,479
Speaker 4: with a very Trumpian thing that's like encouraging the hate

1144
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 4: that is there too fester.

1145
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 5: It's particularly like to try to diverse again. I found

1146
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 5: the fucking like you can't support Palestinia liberation if you're

1147
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 5: queer dunk that we see from like Zionist near liberals

1148
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 5: to be one of the most frustrating a like you

1149
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 5: can support what the fuck you want, Like you don't

1150
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 5: need a condescending, fucking like zist mum in a minivan

1151
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 5: to tell you what you can and can't believe, and like,

1152
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 5: b go look up some of this guy's statements because

1153
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 5: fucking you ain't gonna find anyone who's more genocidal towards

1154
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 5: queer people openly than this motherfucker.

1155
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 4: I mean, Israel is like very well known for like

1156
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 4: pink washing and pretending they're very progressive and supportive of yeah,

1157
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 4: of queer people, when they're really not. I mean, yeah,

1158
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 4: this country also is not, you know what I mean,

1159
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 4: Like it's I think I think that argument is a

1160
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 4: very privileged elitist one.

1161
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like like yeah, just like haha, homophobia exists there,

1162
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 5: it's not. It's not a win for anyone. Yeah, if

1163
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 5: you want to get married to someone of the same

1164
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 5: gender as you in Israel, you do it on zoom

1165
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 5: in fucking Utah like that that Like, when you've been

1166
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 5: outflanked to the left by Utah, you've done fucked up.

1167
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 5: You don't get to wave your pride flag at anyone.

1168
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:50,439
Speaker 5: Fuck off.

1169
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 3: This is one of the sort of progressive veneer of

1170
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 3: the Israelis has been you know, like fading because these

1171
01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 3: the people who are coming to parent and then Yahoo

1172
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 3: in some ways was one of the sort of anguer

1173
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 3: to this. But like this, and this is the thing

1174
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 3: you're seeing in India too, right, Like whenever you get

1175
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 3: a far right guy. Right, the thing that inevitably generates

1176
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 3: is people who are even further right than they are. Yeah,

1177
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 3: and that that's that that's what these these settler people are.

1178
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 3: And and the thing is, like these settler guys, you

1179
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 3: can't cover for them, like if you if they are

1180
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 3: on camera for longer than about thirty seconds, they start

1181
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 3: saying stuff like just the most unhinged, like we're gonna

1182
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 3: kill all the Palestinians. They start saying like we're gonna

1183
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 3: kill every Arab, like, they start talking about various and

1184
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 3: various basically like their their their platforms that they you know,

1185
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 3: they're And then this is this is so part of

1186
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 3: the reason that there are there there's a coalition of

1187
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 3: of these like of these like far right settler parties

1188
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 3: that are now backing net and Yahu. And this is

1189
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 3: this is how net and Yahu has been able to

1190
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 3: stay out of prison, is that he's been able to

1191
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 3: back enough, he's been able to buy off enough of

1192
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 3: these people that they're backing his government so he can

1193
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 3: stay prime minister, so they can't charge him. But the

1194
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 3: the you know, the the concession basically for this was

1195
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 3: that these like this guy was just basically just given

1196
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 3: control of a bunch of state military power, like from

1197
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 3: the army in the West Bank. It's been given to

1198
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 3: him in his settler fanatics. And you know, like especially

1199
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 3: since like the Hamas attack like these, the government has

1200
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 3: been handing out guns these people like candy, yes, and

1201
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 3: they've been using which is murder Palestinians and cold blood

1202
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 3: and you know, I mean the thing is, people do

1203
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 3: a lot, right, so sometimes they just kill people. The

1204
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 3: thing they do all the time is just in the

1205
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 3: middle of the night, like if you're if you're living

1206
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 3: in the West Bank, like a bunch of mass guys

1207
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 3: will show up, the will break into your home. They'll

1208
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 3: beat the shit out of you, and they'll say, like

1209
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 3: if you don't leave tomorrow, will kill you. And you know,

1210
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 3: sometimes those guys are settlers, like are just like are

1211
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 3: non like I don't know, like non military settlers, right,

1212
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 3: they're like settler civilians or whatever. Sometimes those guys are

1213
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 3: just like the army, And there's no fucking way to

1214
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,919
Speaker 3: tell which one, like, because again it's just a bunch

1215
01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 3: of people in masks appear in the night and break

1216
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 3: into your house and start beating the shit out of

1217
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 3: you and these people, these are these are the people

1218
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 3: that increasingly the Israeli political system is being run by.

1219
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 3: And and you can't And it is in a similar way,

1220
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,919
Speaker 3: just the way that Andrew Jackson just like rips off

1221
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 3: this mask of sort of like New England gentility that

1222
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 3: the US had like had had under like John Adams

1223
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 3: and uh or like John Quincy Adams and like Monroe,

1224
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 3: well Minroe's I guess like a like Minroe's like a

1225
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 3: you know, like another one of these like dignified Virginia

1226
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 3: planter guys, and like you know, those people have do

1227
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 3: a lot of the same violence that that Jackson does.

1228
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:43,040
Speaker 3: But Jackson is the guy who just rips the mask

1229
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 3: off and is just you know, this completely unhinged settler

1230
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 3: mediac who like this is the guy you killed it

1231
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 3: like just murdered a bunch of people in duels, like

1232
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 3: you know. And and these are the kind of people

1233
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 3: who are who are coming to power. It is there

1234
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 3: right now. And this is this is a self reinforcing

1235
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 3: dynamic because the more power these people get, right, the

1236
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 3: more they're able to, you know, just carry out genocides.

1237
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 3: And the more genocides were able to carry out, the

1238
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 3: more of that they're the more people that they were

1239
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 3: able to push into these territories that they've taken, and

1240
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 3: the more people they put in these territories, the more

1241
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 3: of the more of these like settler fanatics there are,

1242
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 3: and this this is one of the big things that

1243
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 3: is driving the entire conflict.

1244
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 5: Oh.

1245
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 4: I think a good thing to remember is that last

1246
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 4: year there was an election like going into twenty twenty

1247
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 4: three and uh, Israel like put into power a bunch

1248
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 4: of these right wing people. Was it twenty twenty three

1249
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 4: with twenty twenty two? And was in track of time.

1250
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 5: He came in last he came in twenty Yeah, I

1251
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 5: think he was a minute he was points to minister

1252
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two. But okay, sorry, the years a

1253
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 5: time election is real, Yeah, I remember when.

1254
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,360
Speaker 4: My point is that like in recent history, the last

1255
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 4: couple of years, these extreme right wing racist people are

1256
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 4: in power, all the all the places of power, all

1257
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 4: the ministers, all the whatever the shit they're all shared.

1258
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 4: They all share this ideology that like Arabs must die. Basically,

1259
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 4: that's like they're the main point is that they are

1260
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 4: superior to Arabs and then they must die, and that

1261
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 4: this is a diet in this place that is theirs.

1262
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 3: And you know, and what these people are doing when

1263
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 3: they're in power, and this is the thing that this

1264
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 3: is one of the things they were trying to do

1265
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 3: before the sort of like the current war started, was

1266
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 3: they were trying to annex the West Bank. This is

1267
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 3: a very explicit goal. Now this is a very explicit

1268
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 3: goal of the settler parties. They will kind of they

1269
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 3: know it's pretty hard for them to like legally annex it,

1270
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 3: so they will talk about like effectively annexing it and

1271
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 3: stuff like that. They do these sort of like subtle metaphors,

1272
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 3: but like, yeah, what they want to do is to

1273
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 3: kick people out of what's called Area See, which is

1274
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 3: the majority of the West Bank. And they want to

1275
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:51,480
Speaker 3: kick all the like the immediate plans, I want to

1276
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 3: kick all the people out of Area Sea and push

1277
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 3: them into just like increasingly tiny corners of the West Bank.

1278
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 3: And presumably because again, if if you've listen to all

1279
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 3: these people talk, right, it's that they talk about like

1280
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 3: Jews have the right to live in.

1281
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 5: H look Judae and Samaria yeah yeah yeah, yeah, they

1282
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 5: call the West Bank, yeah yeah, they.

1283
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 3: Have a right to live there. So and the thing

1284
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 3: is like if you believe that right, that means you

1285
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 3: have to kick all the Palestinians out of the West

1286
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 3: Bank entirely. Now the places people have stopped sort of

1287
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 3: before the war, the places people had stopped was like, well, okay,

1288
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 3: they can live in Gaza. But now they're talking about

1289
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 3: you know, I mean just like taking over most of

1290
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 3: like just taking over most of Gaza and driving the

1291
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 3: Palestinians out.

1292
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it doesn't have to lead like Jews have

1293
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 5: a right to live in this place, doesn't have to

1294
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 5: lead to thus we must genocide the people who live there,

1295
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 5: right like we it like it. This is what happens

1296
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 5: when we get a state that understands existence as destroying

1297
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 5: anybody who is not in agreement with this right wing

1298
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 5: genocidal fucking Outlook like it has been possible for people

1299
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 5: of different faiths to live in different places.

1300
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 2: But four forty eight, yeah, exactly existing.

1301
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, this the ideology that is inherent to like

1302
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 5: a Zionist militarized state will never allow that co existence

1303
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 5: to happen, right, because it relies on coexistence not being

1304
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 5: possible as part of its narrative. For like Mia said, taking, dominating,

1305
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 5: and appropriating that land and gaining the value from it.

1306
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 4: But it's the narrative that they need to say stuff

1307
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 4: like oh, all the gardens should just go to Egypt

1308
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 4: or whatever. It is, like it's all part of the

1309
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 4: plan to kind of just like expel them so they can.

1310
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, it doesn't even have to be like it's not

1311
01:07:38,080 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 5: like an explicit plan that they have a whiteboard and

1312
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 5: they're like it is you know.

1313
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,520
Speaker 3: They do actually occasionally just write it out. Sometimes they

1314
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 3: do actually explicitly write the plants.

1315
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, you can say on x dot com from time

1316
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 5: to time, but it's inherent, as Mia said like several times,

1317
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 5: to state and to a capitalist state that is a

1318
01:07:56,280 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 5: settler colony, right, Like it's inevitable. It happened here, it's

1319
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 5: happening there. It's happened all over the world. Like it's

1320
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 5: not possible to construct a capitalist state on someone else's land,

1321
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 5: on someone else's bodies. It doesn't do this.

1322
01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean and this this is this is

1323
01:08:10,360 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 3: also one thing I wanted to emphasize too, is that

1324
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 3: all of the shit that's happening in Palestine happened here, right.

1325
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:19,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess like we, like the US didn't

1326
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 3: have the kind of surveillance technology in like then the

1327
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,640
Speaker 3: eighteen teens, right that the Israelis have now. But you know,

1328
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 3: like we we did all this shit too, right, like

1329
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 3: this is this is all of the land that we

1330
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 3: live on. That's that's where that shit came from. There's

1331
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 3: there's this great uh. I really love Daniel Connan the

1332
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 3: Painted Bird. It has this great line in one of

1333
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 3: his songs that goes because he's the one who did

1334
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:49,440
Speaker 3: the stealing and named you as the heir whose filthiness

1335
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 3: provided you the privileges you bear. And this is this

1336
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 3: thing in the US right, like in Israel, you know,

1337
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:56,400
Speaker 3: if you're a settler on the border, right, there's no

1338
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 3: there's no escape from what you did to take this place.

1339
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 3: Right like you are you are looking down on the

1340
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 3: people who you've like whose houses you've taken. Right in

1341
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 3: the US, we have this sort of luxury of like, wow,

1342
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: this happened a long time ago, like we don't have

1343
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:14,680
Speaker 3: to sort of we don't have to see the consequences

1344
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 3: of it, but.

1345
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 5: We still do it right like we didn't, just like

1346
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 5: we're doing it at Oak Flat for instance right now.

1347
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 5: Or yeah, look at how Trump fucking did indigenous people

1348
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 5: during COVID, like it's an ongoing process.

1349
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:32,320
Speaker 3: Yeah and right, yeah, it's it's so much easier for

1350
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 3: Americans to pretend that it's not happening, and you know,

1351
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 3: like no, like it turns out in fact like this, this, this,

1352
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,800
Speaker 3: and this is where the sort of sub of colonialism

1353
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 3: of the structure not an event stuff comes from. And

1354
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 3: it applies to both Israel and the US because guess.

1355
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 4: What, Israel literally took notes from what the US did.

1356
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 4: It just did it, you know what I mean, Like

1357
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:58,920
Speaker 4: it's just the same thing in the end, Like we're

1358
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 4: the bad guys, like we've always been the bad guys.

1359
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:04,639
Speaker 6: Are the bad guys?

1360
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know, I'm Chinese, right, And this

1361
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:13,639
Speaker 3: is one of the things that has informed a lot

1362
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 3: of my sort of perspective on Palestine, because all of

1363
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 3: the things that are happening to Palestine is shit that

1364
01:10:21,320 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 3: was done to us by the Japanese Empire, right, and

1365
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 3: we fought a war to stop them, and that war

1366
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 3: was hideous. That war, the war in China sees some

1367
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 3: of the darkest moments in human history. And there's this

1368
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 3: tendency among I mean, you know, as a tendency among

1369
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 3: both both the communists and the nationalists want to sort

1370
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 3: of sanitize it, right, They want to turn it into

1371
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,719
Speaker 3: this sort of glorious war for liberation, and like, yeah,

1372
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:47,960
Speaker 3: like there are moments of like, you know, glorious anti

1373
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 3: imperialist struggle, but that war mostly was just a horror.

1374
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,640
Speaker 3: And it's a horror not just because of the atrocities

1375
01:10:57,640 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 3: committed by the Japanese, right, the Chinese side in that

1376
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 3: were also does things that are unforgivable. And I'm not

1377
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 3: even talking about Hiroshima and Nagasaki here because you know,

1378
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 3: like we as in like Chinese people, like we didn't

1379
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 3: do that right, like you know, Mao Mao, Like on

1380
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 3: the one hit. It is true that when Noo found

1381
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 3: out about the nuclear eruptions, his reaction was, way, you

1382
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 3: had a third bomb and he didn't drop it on Tokyo,

1383
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 3: But like, you know, we didn't do that right Like

1384
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 3: that was that was the Americans. That wasn't like that

1385
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 3: wasn't like us in China. But you know, the things

1386
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 3: that I'm talking about that the Chinese side of that

1387
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:39,040
Speaker 3: war did that were just unforgivable, you know, I mean,

1388
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 3: I think the best example of it is Shanghai Shek

1389
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 3: blew up a dam on the Yellow River, and his

1390
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 3: goal was he was trying to you know, he was

1391
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:50,560
Speaker 3: trying to flood like several provinces to cut off the

1392
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 3: Japanese army and to like slow down their troop movements, right,

1393
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 3: and he slows down the troop movements, and he does

1394
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 3: it by killing four hot This is this is this

1395
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,120
Speaker 3: is this is this. The low end estimates is that

1396
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:06,800
Speaker 3: he killed four hundred thousand people. That is a an

1397
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 3: amount of death that is unimaginable. He killed like in

1398
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:17,280
Speaker 3: a single act, he killed four hundred thousand people. It

1399
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 3: is two Hiroshima and Nagasaki's And that's that's the low

1400
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 3: end estimate. Right, people, people, people fighting against Japan, people

1401
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 3: fighting against colonialism, did unforgivable crimes. And you know, and

1402
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 3: the people of of China like never forget like to

1403
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:36,120
Speaker 3: this day, like in the provinces where like where this

1404
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:39,880
Speaker 3: shit happened, Like Chang Kai Shek is fucking despised, and

1405
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:43,519
Speaker 3: you know, and like when when like when the Allies

1406
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 3: won the war and when China drove out the Japanese, right,

1407
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 3: like the next thing they did was they drove out

1408
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 3: shan Kai Shack because he was, you know, because because

1409
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:53,960
Speaker 3: he had done things in that war that were so

1410
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 3: terrible that people were willing to be like fuck it,

1411
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 3: Like Mao didn't fucking blow up damn and kill four

1412
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 3: hundred thousand of us, right, you know, and so like,

1413
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:06,720
Speaker 3: and this is the thing about colonial resistance is that

1414
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 3: it is the things that people do are unforgivable. Also

1415
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 3: that that word that Japan fought in China, they killed

1416
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 3: twenty million of US twenty million. And this is one

1417
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:24,400
Speaker 3: of these things right where like colonialism makes monsters of us.

1418
01:13:24,439 --> 01:13:27,920
Speaker 3: All suffering does not make you knowable, just makes you suffer.

1419
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 3: And so you know, again like the are like China's

1420
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 3: anti colonial freedom fighters right, like fucking killed killed numbers

1421
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:39,800
Speaker 3: of like Chinese people that are it's just unimaginable. And

1422
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,080
Speaker 3: then you know, these same freedom fighters who fought the

1423
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 3: good fighting against Japan, you know, within twenty years they're

1424
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:47,599
Speaker 3: bulldozing Moss and shing John and murdering communists in Tibet, right,

1425
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 3: and they've built two, you know, after successfully repelling Japan's

1426
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 3: attempt to turn China into a settler state, they have

1427
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:57,840
Speaker 3: made two of their own. And you know, so like

1428
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 3: there's there's No. I think the point that I'm trying

1429
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:06,639
Speaker 3: to make here is that, you know, like anti colonial

1430
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:11,479
Speaker 3: resistance is not this sort of like it doesn't look pretty.

1431
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 3: It's a fucking horror most of the time. But you also,

1432
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 3: you know, when when you're looking into like when you're

1433
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:21,760
Speaker 3: looking at these wars, you have to look at the

1434
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 3: direction in which colonization is moving. And that's you know,

1435
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:28,559
Speaker 3: that's the thing that is crystal clear in Palestine, right

1436
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 3: is you can just look at like which in which

1437
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 3: direction is is colonization moving?

1438
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:34,120
Speaker 1: Right?

1439
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:35,919
Speaker 3: Like who is taking whose houses?

1440
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: Right?

1441
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 3: Who is who is forcing a million people from what

1442
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,639
Speaker 3: population to flee their homes? Who is you know, who

1443
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:45,680
Speaker 3: has been steal he has been seizing people's land. And

1444
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 3: I think it clears up. I don't know, clears up

1445
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:53,240
Speaker 3: isn't the right word, but specifically the fact that this

1446
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 3: is that this is active colonization, that this is this

1447
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:57,600
Speaker 3: is this is a center of colonial state waging a

1448
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 3: war against you know, people like people who are fighting

1449
01:15:01,200 --> 01:15:05,599
Speaker 3: against colonization. That is the sort of that that is

1450
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 3: the underlying current of everything that happens. And and you know,

1451
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:17,879
Speaker 3: like I don't know, like people people in anti colonial

1452
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:22,200
Speaker 3: wars do things that are unforgivable and they get you know,

1453
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 3: and like often like their own people will eventually come

1454
01:15:25,840 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 3: for them one day. And also I don't know.

1455
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 4: I no one has to agree with me, it's fine,

1456
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:36,559
Speaker 4: But I personally really dislike when it's called a war

1457
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 4: what's happening in Palestine because I just think it's the

1458
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 4: clearest case of genocide I've ever seen, and like I

1459
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 4: don't care how it started or whatever, I feel like

1460
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 4: at this point in time, it's a genocide. Like if

1461
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 4: Palestine's out of country, Palestine does not have an army,

1462
01:15:53,439 --> 01:15:57,559
Speaker 4: they can't, no one can leave Gaza. I think that

1463
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:02,400
Speaker 4: is the current state of what the violence is going

1464
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 4: on over there.

1465
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 3: And so yeah, just like particular, like I think I

1466
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 3: think you're like I think you're right about that, and

1467
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 3: that's the thing that that's the thing that's different than

1468
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:13,519
Speaker 3: like the stuff that was happening in China was like

1469
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:15,120
Speaker 3: at least we sort of had like at least we

1470
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 3: had a state, right and we had armies and our

1471
01:16:17,080 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 3: armies got fucking stopped, but you know, we had like

1472
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:26,480
Speaker 3: we we we had actual weapons.

1473
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I must have some now, But I think you're

1474
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 5: to your greater point, Yeah, I think, like, well, yeah,

1475
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,120
Speaker 5: it sounds very similar to like have you read Challenged

1476
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:38,840
Speaker 5: Introduction to.

1477
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 6: The Rest of the Earth?

1478
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, like where he talks about violence and the state

1479
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 5: talking in the language of violence, and people responding in

1480
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 5: the language in which they're spoken to.

1481
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:49,719
Speaker 6: I think I'm paraphrasing that relatively accurately.

1482
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:52,960
Speaker 5: It doesn't have to be like the violence has to

1483
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:55,720
Speaker 5: be good for it to be like an inevitable consequence

1484
01:16:55,880 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 5: of violent colonialism, right, like it sparks violent colonization movements.

1485
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 5: It doesn't imply like a moral like goodness to the

1486
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 5: individual act. It's just an inevitable consequence of people fighting

1487
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:16,120
Speaker 5: against colonalism in the only way that that colonalism kind

1488
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,599
Speaker 5: of leaves for them, I guess, yeah.

1489
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 3: And I think I think another part of this too

1490
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:25,519
Speaker 3: is that like just being in contact with colonial powers

1491
01:17:25,600 --> 01:17:28,600
Speaker 3: makes everyone worse. Like this, This is the thing you

1492
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 3: see in the US with a lot of with a

1493
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:33,080
Speaker 3: lot of indigenous groups, is that like you know, like

1494
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:35,439
Speaker 3: like bye bye bye by by the time the trail

1495
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:39,280
Speaker 3: of cheers is happening, like the Cherokee or like have

1496
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 3: adopted chattel slavery, like like American style plantation chattel slavery

1497
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:47,880
Speaker 3: and that fucking sucks, right, It's like it being in

1498
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 3: contact with these settler empires like brings out the worst

1499
01:17:53,600 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 3: in everyone, mm hmm. And there's no winning from that position, right,

1500
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 3: like the the the best I don't even know if

1501
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:05,600
Speaker 3: it's the best case stereo, Like I guess occasionally you

1502
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 3: get like an Algeria where you know, they kill it

1503
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:13,559
Speaker 3: off people and like the other Algeria, like you know,

1504
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,679
Speaker 3: the settlers in Algeria all like went back to France.

1505
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:20,160
Speaker 3: But that's not an option in Israel, right like, and

1506
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 3: we wouldn't even you wouldn't want it to be a

1507
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:25,840
Speaker 3: solution either, So I don't know. It's one of these

1508
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:28,600
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's one of the sort of dilemmas

1509
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 3: of how you deal with a colony is that.

1510
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:33,800
Speaker 5: It's harder to decomnize the set of economy, right, yes,

1511
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 5: like it implies a removal of one people or in

1512
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 5: other people, and either of those things are in any

1513
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:45,000
Speaker 5: way desirable, like, and it's so hard to see like

1514
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 5: a path to a peaceful coexistence now because all we

1515
01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 5: see is like the entire world ratcheting the fucking like

1516
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 5: violence level up and like, yeah, Israel carrying out genocidal

1517
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 5: vims in Gaza. It's not the way we reach a

1518
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 5: way for people to like children to grow up without

1519
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 5: fucking fearing if the sky is going to kill them

1520
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:16,040
Speaker 5: in Gaza, right, like this will happen for generations to

1521
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 5: come because you've emotionally scarred field children.

1522
01:19:21,360 --> 01:19:23,559
Speaker 4: Well, how would you? I think it's a very human

1523
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 4: response if anything, Like I I don't think we have

1524
01:19:29,439 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 4: the the right to judge how someone that has been

1525
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 4: through that hell how they respond because it's I don't know,

1526
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 4: we haven't lived their nightmare. It's just a nightmare.

1527
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 5: And like it's not like like there, it's not like

1528
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 5: there haven't been attempts at non violent resistance in Gaza,

1529
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:48,360
Speaker 5: because they have.

1530
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:50,720
Speaker 6: And look what fucking happened like.

1531
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:52,680
Speaker 3: That there was a big one like like three or

1532
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 3: four years ago. Yeah, like you know.

1533
01:19:56,400 --> 01:19:59,800
Speaker 5: They like the fucking Crassenstein take the why can't they

1534
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:01,960
Speaker 5: all dis organized to archie the war holding Kansas and

1535
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 5: come by they like I tried to do that, but

1536
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:09,599
Speaker 5: like yeah, people people kept killing them. Like I'd say

1537
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:12,200
Speaker 5: this every time we talk about guards, but say again,

1538
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,479
Speaker 5: like when we were talking to the PK guys, of guys,

1539
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 5: and I've known them for a few years. Like one

1540
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 5: of them was telling me about how they used to

1541
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:23,639
Speaker 5: do sleepover camps for kids there so the kids could

1542
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 5: learn parkour and not have to pay for the travel

1543
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 5: and like you know, take their time and risk to travel,

1544
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 5: so they do sleep over camps in the summertime.

1545
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 6: And he was explained to.

1546
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 5: Me like it was the most normal thing in the

1547
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:39,120
Speaker 5: world that the six eight year old children would wake

1548
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:42,760
Speaker 5: up at night with night terror screaming because they thought

1549
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:47,480
Speaker 5: they were being bombed, because they are having like a

1550
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 5: flashback from being bombed, I guess, And like that's something

1551
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 5: I recognized from from PTSD, from from you know, other.

1552
01:20:55,800 --> 01:20:59,080
Speaker 6: Contexts, but like it really fucked me up.

1553
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 5: An eighty royal child is like we can't expect these

1554
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 5: people to like develop into come by us singing like

1555
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:09,519
Speaker 5: peace activists, like that they they have taken on massive

1556
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:11,960
Speaker 5: amounts of raw where they've seen the neighbors and families die,

1557
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:15,680
Speaker 5: Like it doesn't mean that we have to be like,

1558
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:18,680
Speaker 5: oh well, like violence is going to happen, like that

1559
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 5: we should do everything we can to make a world

1560
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 5: where like people aren't killing and dying there, because it

1561
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:29,400
Speaker 5: will always result in more of the least empowered people dying.

1562
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:34,280
Speaker 5: But it's something that I think a lot of us

1563
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:37,640
Speaker 5: are so far detached from that. I think is as like,

1564
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:39,000
Speaker 5: you know, if you lived a whole lot of the

1565
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:42,519
Speaker 5: United States relative safety and prosperity, it's it's hard for

1566
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:43,320
Speaker 5: you to understand.

1567
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, And I mean like this is a

1568
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 3: like gaza is a place where it reiins body parts,

1569
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 3: Like that's what happens when it is really bomb goes off,

1570
01:21:53,600 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 3: It rains body parts, and like that is a.

1571
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 2: I don't know, like.

1572
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:06,639
Speaker 3: The kind of person who has to grow up with

1573
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:10,240
Speaker 3: that is just not going to be the same as

1574
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:13,479
Speaker 3: like even people who have been through a lot of

1575
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 3: like really messed up stuff, Like it's not going to

1576
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:17,599
Speaker 3: be the same as like experiencing that.

1577
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:21,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, even if you like I have visited was to

1578
01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:24,920
Speaker 5: report on them. But then I get to go home

1579
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 5: and be safe. And sometimes that juxtaposition is hard, and

1580
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 5: it takes me a long time to not be afraid

1581
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:31,640
Speaker 5: of the sky or a park car is going to

1582
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 5: kill me. But I'm home and I'm safe, And once

1583
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 5: I can adjust to that, then I can I can

1584
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 5: get on, you know, change things like that change.

1585
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:40,160
Speaker 6: You, but you continue with your life.

1586
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,200
Speaker 5: But if you're never home and you're never so or

1587
01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:46,000
Speaker 5: your home is never safe, that's something I can't understand, right,

1588
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:49,720
Speaker 5: That's something that I haven't experienced, and very very few

1589
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:51,320
Speaker 5: of us probably.

1590
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:55,560
Speaker 4: Have, a lot of doctors have said that all the

1591
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 4: children in Gaza, they haven't they can't quite they can't

1592
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,559
Speaker 4: be quite defined of having experienced PTSD because they haven't

1593
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 4: reached the post part yet, like they're still they're like

1594
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:09,080
Speaker 4: in a perpetual state of PTSD because that's just how

1595
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 4: they their entire lives have been. Most of them have

1596
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:13,639
Speaker 4: never known life outside of the blockade.

1597
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:22,720
Speaker 3: So it's I don't know, yeah, and I mean I

1598
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 3: think I think that's a good place to end of.

1599
01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:26,920
Speaker 3: Just you know, this is what this is what this

1600
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 3: is what the reality and the eternal presence of SETL

1601
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:33,280
Speaker 3: colonialism is, right, and you know, this is one of

1602
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 3: these things where in a lot of weird ways, like

1603
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,120
Speaker 3: like there are ways in which we like people like

1604
01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:41,840
Speaker 3: if you live in the US, if you like even

1605
01:23:41,840 --> 01:23:44,880
Speaker 3: the subset the UK, like you are probably in a

1606
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 3: like maybe a better position to actually stop this than

1607
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:52,200
Speaker 3: anyone who lives in Palestign is so yeah, yeah, this

1608
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:55,479
Speaker 3: is but and and the problem is if we don't

1609
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 3: right the self, the mutually self reinforcing dynamics of setular

1610
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:02,600
Speaker 3: colonialism are just going to keep like carrying on and

1611
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 3: keep spiraling on. And this is going to go on

1612
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,559
Speaker 3: until everyone is dead or everyone is gone.

1613
01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:12,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, even if you can't stop it. Like I sent

1614
01:24:12,280 --> 01:24:14,400
Speaker 5: the video. I'm sure you guys saw the video of

1615
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:17,599
Speaker 5: the Jewish Wis of Peace people in the Grand Central Terminal,

1616
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:21,439
Speaker 5: New York. And I said that to the Palestinian journalistic

1617
01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 5: because they're like, oh, this is great to see you.

1618
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:25,400
Speaker 5: And if something we spoke about the interview too, how

1619
01:24:25,479 --> 01:24:28,280
Speaker 5: like it makes a me fully difference to some mech

1620
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:32,559
Speaker 5: state of mind to see solidarity, even if like you know,

1621
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:35,719
Speaker 5: we can get in the streets and we can say

1622
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:37,920
Speaker 5: something and maybe that will make a difference. Maybe it won't,

1623
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 5: but like, at least if it makes someone understand that

1624
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:43,200
Speaker 5: you're kind of standing with them in a moment of darkness,

1625
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:45,559
Speaker 5: and maybe that helps in a way.

1626
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:53,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think when a whole population is not able

1627
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:56,080
Speaker 4: to share what they're going through, their journalists are getting

1628
01:24:56,160 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 4: killed when the internet is out and the one thing

1629
01:24:59,439 --> 01:25:02,240
Speaker 4: they're saying is like, please don't start talking about this.

1630
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:06,519
Speaker 4: I think that's the easiest thing that we can do.

1631
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:10,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and hopefully maybe this will impel us to Like

1632
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:12,639
Speaker 5: as Miya said at the start, right, this keeps fucking happening,

1633
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 5: and like, as ethnic cleansings go, this one's got more

1634
01:25:17,200 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 5: coverage than most in the US, And like, I would

1635
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:22,640
Speaker 5: encourage you to look at what you're seeing in Gaza,

1636
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 5: and I understand how inhuman and unemangeable it is. And like,

1637
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:30,439
Speaker 5: maybe follow that shouldn't happen anywhere. It shouldn't happen into Gray,

1638
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:33,600
Speaker 5: and it shouldn't happen in Kurdistan, it shouldn't happen to

1639
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:38,240
Speaker 5: the r hinge of people, And like, yeah, try try

1640
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:41,559
Speaker 5: and extend that. It's not to scold people, like if

1641
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 5: you weren't in the streets in twenty seventeen, fuck you,

1642
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 5: Like it's it's just to say that, like we've all

1643
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:50,560
Speaker 5: had a window opened, even with every fucking attempt to

1644
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:52,880
Speaker 5: shut that window, right, Like but cutting off the internet

1645
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:57,320
Speaker 5: to Gaza, et cetera. This has been the most photographed

1646
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,479
Speaker 5: ethnic cleansing, whatever you want to call it, in probably

1647
01:26:01,479 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 5: in human history. We're seeing more of it than we've

1648
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,040
Speaker 5: ever seen before, a lot of it in sort of

1649
01:26:06,120 --> 01:26:09,040
Speaker 5: uncertain ways or fucking footage and video games, past office

1650
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:11,559
Speaker 5: real life. But we're still seeing it, and we're still

1651
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:14,400
Speaker 5: bearing witness to it to a limited degree, right, We're

1652
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:16,559
Speaker 5: not seeing it in the sense people seeing it firsthand.

1653
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 5: And I encourage people to like, remember this moment and

1654
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 5: the shock and the terrible things that you felt, and

1655
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:28,759
Speaker 5: like to not forget that next time you hear about

1656
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 5: something happening, because, like anywhere has happened, it's a tragedy.

1657
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 5: In anywhere it happens, we should do everything we can

1658
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:34,920
Speaker 5: to stop it.

1659
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 2: Welcome to it could happen here? A podcast in which

1660
01:26:56,479 --> 01:26:58,639
Speaker 2: my friend Kim Kelly and I talk about the fact

1661
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:02,360
Speaker 2: that Zoom recently moved to the record button, which most

1662
01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 2: people will need at some point, given how prominent this

1663
01:27:05,080 --> 01:27:09,280
Speaker 2: is with podcasting, to replace it with an AI companion button,

1664
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:12,679
Speaker 2: which I refuse to use, uh and would would would

1665
01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 2: deploy violence against anyone who tried to make me. How

1666
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:16,080
Speaker 2: are you doing any day? Camp?

1667
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 8: I am good? Also hating our AI soon to be overlords.

1668
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,120
Speaker 8: Yeah yeah, doing my best out here in Philadelphia?

1669
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:27,760
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Philly. How is how is Philly as the

1670
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:29,400
Speaker 2: as the fall comes in.

1671
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:35,080
Speaker 8: It's it's a very sunny day. It's also getting chilly.

1672
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:38,760
Speaker 8: I'm into it. It's finally leather weather. I mean, I

1673
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:41,720
Speaker 8: guess it's always leather weather, depending on your level of commitment.

1674
01:27:41,840 --> 01:27:44,559
Speaker 8: But I am ye wuss and it's I tend to

1675
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:48,160
Speaker 8: wait for, you know, the weather to tell me when

1676
01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:49,519
Speaker 8: it's time to break out my leather.

1677
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:53,400
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, you know I I I feel like all

1678
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:57,879
Speaker 2: all things are fine. Personally. You should just assume listeners

1679
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:02,599
Speaker 2: that I am always head to toe leather. But anyway, Oh, yeah,

1680
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:03,320
Speaker 2: Kety is on.

1681
01:28:03,439 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 8: He looks resplendent.

1682
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:10,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, Kim. You are a labor journalist. You published a

1683
01:28:10,479 --> 01:28:12,760
Speaker 2: book what was it last year, year before last, called

1684
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:17,200
Speaker 2: Fight Like Hell Yeah, about about the history of the

1685
01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:20,880
Speaker 2: labor movement and some radical moments people ought to know

1686
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:24,639
Speaker 2: more about. And you and I are talking today about labor,

1687
01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:30,560
Speaker 2: particularly about the possibility of a general strike. Now, if you,

1688
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:34,160
Speaker 2: the listener, have somehow missed this discourse. In short, a

1689
01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:37,960
Speaker 2: general strike is when instead of one union of workers

1690
01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 2: from one industry striking, everybody strikes. At least, you know,

1691
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:44,680
Speaker 2: a very significant chunk of the labor force strikes and

1692
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:46,960
Speaker 2: this is you know, it's the kind of thing people

1693
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:49,559
Speaker 2: on the left have dreamed about four years as like

1694
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:53,080
Speaker 2: this is what could you know, turn things around, reduce

1695
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:57,920
Speaker 2: income inequality, force action on climate change, the military industrial complex,

1696
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:00,800
Speaker 2: and kind of as a result, you've had feels like

1697
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 2: every year for the last few years since people started

1698
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:06,760
Speaker 2: reading about general strikes, which have occurred in a number

1699
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:09,360
Speaker 2: of places and times, there's these like someone will get

1700
01:29:09,360 --> 01:29:11,120
Speaker 2: on Twitter and be like, we're all doing a general

1701
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 2: strike in two weeks. You know, everybody get ready, and

1702
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:16,439
Speaker 2: folks will be like, that's not really how you do

1703
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 2: a general strike, and they'll go like, well, if you

1704
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 2: weren't saying it's not, it could happen.

1705
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:21,760
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to believe.

1706
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 2: In it first, which is all of this is wrong.

1707
01:29:24,439 --> 01:29:28,519
Speaker 2: But the good news is there's an actual plan that

1708
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:33,880
Speaker 2: is cohesive and potentially achievable for a general strike that's

1709
01:29:33,920 --> 01:29:37,080
Speaker 2: been put forward by someone who knows what he's talking about.

1710
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 2: We're going to talk about that, but first, Kim, do

1711
01:29:39,080 --> 01:29:41,120
Speaker 2: you want to talk about why trying to get everyone

1712
01:29:41,160 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 2: on Twitter to launch a general strike in eight days

1713
01:29:44,360 --> 01:29:46,960
Speaker 2: is a bad idea.

1714
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 8: This is such a pet peeve among well I guess

1715
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:54,040
Speaker 8: a lot of folks in the labor world who are

1716
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:57,160
Speaker 8: also unfortunately on Twitter and social media that yeah, like

1717
01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:01,400
Speaker 8: you said, every so often there'll be general strike hashtag

1718
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 8: or like a graphic on Twitter or on Instagram, and

1719
01:30:05,280 --> 01:30:07,960
Speaker 8: it's like, are you taking part of the general strike?

1720
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 8: Like are you striking on Friday or like tomorrow? Like no, what,

1721
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:17,160
Speaker 8: You're not even in a union? What are you talking about?

1722
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 8: And it's like, I love the energy, I love the vibe,

1723
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 8: you know. I love the idea of a general strike.

1724
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 8: I think it would be incredible if we actually pulled

1725
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:30,720
Speaker 8: it off. But the biggest thing in there is the

1726
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:35,720
Speaker 8: if followed by the pulled it off part. And one

1727
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:39,839
Speaker 8: of the biggest misconceptions I think is that a general

1728
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:43,680
Speaker 8: strike is akin to a big protest. Like you can

1729
01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:47,040
Speaker 8: absolutely plan a big protest in a few days if

1730
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:48,920
Speaker 8: you really want to. I mean, look at the incredible

1731
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 8: work that Jewish Force for Piece has been doing in

1732
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 8: New York and other places. They're gonna be doing in

1733
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 8: Philly this week. I mean, it is possible to build

1734
01:30:57,040 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 8: on existing relationships and networks to create a big fucking

1735
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:04,880
Speaker 8: deal of a protest. But a general strike is a

1736
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 8: different beast. It is a specific thing. It has a definition.

1737
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:11,519
Speaker 8: A general strike, as you said, is when workers across

1738
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:14,840
Speaker 8: various industries go on strike at the same time, and

1739
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:18,640
Speaker 8: that is not the same as filling the streets for

1740
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:22,639
Speaker 8: a protest. It would be sick if we can kind

1741
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 8: of meld those movements like the radical radical organizers who

1742
01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:31,599
Speaker 8: are already in community, already building protests infrastructure, and people

1743
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:34,439
Speaker 8: in union labor world that are kind of beholden to

1744
01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 8: contracts and more legal constraints. But it's going to take

1745
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:40,640
Speaker 8: a little bit of time. It's going to take some dialogue,

1746
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:45,000
Speaker 8: maybe even some fruitful discourse to get on the same page.

1747
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:49,680
Speaker 8: Like they're like, there are laws. We live in a society, unfortunately,

1748
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:53,240
Speaker 8: and it's it's not quite as simple as just declaring

1749
01:31:53,280 --> 01:31:55,840
Speaker 8: a general strike when you and like for your friends

1750
01:31:55,840 --> 01:31:56,479
Speaker 8: call out sick.

1751
01:31:57,080 --> 01:31:59,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's also like I think one thing that

1752
01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 2: gets lost is when you're going on strike. For a

1753
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:04,960
Speaker 2: lot of people, that's not just I have to figure

1754
01:32:04,960 --> 01:32:07,600
Speaker 2: out what to do with money, and it's certainly not

1755
01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:10,640
Speaker 2: you know, while I can just go and be on

1756
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:13,599
Speaker 2: unemployment or something, because you don't really get that when

1757
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:16,960
Speaker 2: you're striking, you've got a lot of people with like families,

1758
01:32:17,120 --> 01:32:21,200
Speaker 2: and so the idea that like you get some podcaster

1759
01:32:21,439 --> 01:32:23,920
Speaker 2: right being like everybody should just not show up. Well,

1760
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:26,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, there's people who got kids. They

1761
01:32:26,120 --> 01:32:29,080
Speaker 2: have other responsibilities than being a part of your revolution.

1762
01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:32,679
Speaker 2: Which is not to say that I don't think I Like, again,

1763
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 2: we're about to talk about an achievable plan for a

1764
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:36,559
Speaker 2: general strike, but one of the reasons why you can't

1765
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,600
Speaker 2: can't pull it off in a couple of days is

1766
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:41,720
Speaker 2: that you have to set you have to have some

1767
01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 2: sort of plan for how you're going to take care

1768
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:46,360
Speaker 2: of the people striking, right, like, so they don't starve

1769
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:47,599
Speaker 2: and shit, Yeah.

1770
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:49,640
Speaker 8: That is the one of the biggest things, I would say,

1771
01:32:49,720 --> 01:32:52,559
Speaker 8: arguably the biggest thing. But also if you're in a

1772
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:55,479
Speaker 8: union and you go on strike as part of you know,

1773
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:58,840
Speaker 8: broken down contract negotiations are part of the life cycle

1774
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:02,600
Speaker 8: of a unique you have legal protections. You can't just

1775
01:33:02,680 --> 01:33:05,800
Speaker 8: be fired if you take part in one of these

1776
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:10,720
Speaker 8: kind of impromptu hashtag general strike actions. Your boss is

1777
01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:13,559
Speaker 8: just gonna fire you and then like you're done. You

1778
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:16,839
Speaker 8: don't have any protections there, Like, what are the reasons

1779
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:19,679
Speaker 8: that And I know it's not as much fun. It's

1780
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:22,120
Speaker 8: just going out and saying fuck it and bring it

1781
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:24,720
Speaker 8: all down. Trust me, I would love to see that

1782
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:29,160
Speaker 8: type of shit, but unfortunately, again, we live constrained by

1783
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:34,120
Speaker 8: laws and like logic when it comes, like the reason

1784
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:37,080
Speaker 8: that you see big labor strikes and big picket lines

1785
01:33:37,080 --> 01:33:40,080
Speaker 8: and all this cool stuff that's happening, like it's part

1786
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 8: of a process. Those unions are negotiating contracts, these legally

1787
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:49,759
Speaker 8: binding documents. They're collective bargaining agreements that have expiration dates.

1788
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:52,720
Speaker 8: You know, the UAW didn't just pick you, didn't just

1789
01:33:52,760 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 8: say all right, right now, we're mad, we're gonna go

1790
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:59,439
Speaker 8: on strike. Like no, their previous agreements had expiration date.

1791
01:33:59,479 --> 01:34:01,840
Speaker 8: They hit the ration date, so they start bargaining again.

1792
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 8: Bargaining didn't go well, they went on strike. That is

1793
01:34:05,720 --> 01:34:08,840
Speaker 8: how it works when you're in a union. That's like

1794
01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:12,160
Speaker 8: just part and parcel of the push and pull of

1795
01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:15,200
Speaker 8: leverage that workers have against the boss. And it's like

1796
01:34:15,240 --> 01:34:18,800
Speaker 8: a century's old system, Like there's laws, there's protections, there's

1797
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:22,080
Speaker 8: a lot that goes into it. And I think we're

1798
01:34:22,120 --> 01:34:24,680
Speaker 8: saying before we hopped on the call officially, like I

1799
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:28,360
Speaker 8: think a lot of people haven't had union jobs or

1800
01:34:28,800 --> 01:34:31,639
Speaker 8: don't have a deep understanding of unions and how they work.

1801
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 8: So of course they wouldn't necessarily know when the expiration

1802
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:38,160
Speaker 8: dat is for this contract or what goes into bargaining

1803
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:43,720
Speaker 8: union contract. But there's a lot of moving parts.

1804
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:45,320
Speaker 5: They might not know that.

1805
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:47,680
Speaker 2: As we're to talk about, you can't just have a

1806
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:49,680
Speaker 2: bunch of union leaders decide we're all going to go

1807
01:34:49,720 --> 01:34:54,120
Speaker 2: on strike at once. Sympathy strikes are very much not legal.

1808
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:57,160
Speaker 2: Now there is a way to get multiple We should

1809
01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 2: just talk about, like why we're doing this, which is that.

1810
01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 2: So there's this fella who so far has seems like

1811
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:07,759
Speaker 2: a pretty pretty head out screwed on straight solid dude,

1812
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:11,280
Speaker 2: Sean Fain, who is Big Sean. Yeah, big Sean, And

1813
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:13,400
Speaker 2: he's like he's the he's the head of the u

1814
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 2: a W. Right, or he's like the guy negotiating for

1815
01:35:15,920 --> 01:35:16,599
Speaker 2: the ua W.

1816
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 8: No, he's the president, Yeah, the.

1817
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:21,600
Speaker 2: President, and he is Sean Is So he's you know,

1818
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:23,639
Speaker 2: the UAW is the big one of the big otto,

1819
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:26,719
Speaker 2: like the largest of the auto worker like related unions,

1820
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:30,640
Speaker 2: and they have been in a strike, I think primarily

1821
01:35:31,200 --> 01:35:33,280
Speaker 2: General Motors.

1822
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:36,760
Speaker 8: It's the big three General Motors Ford as Stelanis, which

1823
01:35:37,080 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 8: makes Chrysler and a couple other brands.

1824
01:35:39,120 --> 01:35:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they they have gone on a very power

1825
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:45,080
Speaker 2: about six weeks or so, very significant strike. You can

1826
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:48,280
Speaker 2: read stuff like Toyota recently like put out a proposal

1827
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:51,040
Speaker 2: for like giving workers raises that's in line with like

1828
01:35:51,080 --> 01:35:55,760
Speaker 2: the union, like they are scared. And it looks like

1829
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:58,719
Speaker 2: like as I mean this is, they haven't inked anything yet,

1830
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:01,479
Speaker 2: but as of us recording this, it looks like they've

1831
01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:06,759
Speaker 2: won on a lot, which is great. And Sean Is

1832
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:09,280
Speaker 2: is not just a you know, a union man, but

1833
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:13,800
Speaker 2: is very much a talking blatantly about the class war

1834
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:16,639
Speaker 2: of the rich against everybody else that's occurring in this country.

1835
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 2: And he made some statements about two days before we

1836
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:23,720
Speaker 2: recorded this where he was like, I think, you know what,

1837
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 2: we need to be setting the date the expiration date

1838
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:29,080
Speaker 2: for our contract in twenty twenty eight. And I want

1839
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:32,960
Speaker 2: to implore all other you know, unions that are negotiating

1840
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:35,120
Speaker 2: and can do this, to set that with their next

1841
01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 2: contract expiration date, so that in twenty twenty eight we

1842
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:41,040
Speaker 2: have the option to do a general strike in order

1843
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:43,719
Speaker 2: to redress some of the systemic inequalities as a result

1844
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 2: of this war of the billionaires against everybody else. Very

1845
01:36:47,360 --> 01:36:50,200
Speaker 2: much framed it in those kind of stark terms, and

1846
01:36:51,080 --> 01:36:52,720
Speaker 2: you know, we're going to talk about why. But I

1847
01:36:52,760 --> 01:36:55,439
Speaker 2: think that's a workable plan potentially.

1848
01:36:55,439 --> 01:36:58,840
Speaker 8: It really is. It's incredible. Honestly, this is kind of

1849
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 8: I think this is one the ballsiest things we've heard

1850
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:08,000
Speaker 8: from a mainstream labor leader since well since Sarah Nelson,

1851
01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:11,960
Speaker 8: the president of the Flight Attendants Union, kind of soft

1852
01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:14,280
Speaker 8: called for a general strike or at least brought up

1853
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:17,599
Speaker 8: the idea of a general strike in twenty nineteen, and.

1854
01:37:17,640 --> 01:37:21,680
Speaker 2: Her doing that, I've forgotten that stopped a government shutdown.

1855
01:37:22,080 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, So, like, the general strike is a very powerful tool,

1856
01:37:26,760 --> 01:37:28,760
Speaker 8: and we've done it before, you know, I think the

1857
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:31,600
Speaker 8: most recent true general strike we saw this country was

1858
01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:35,440
Speaker 8: like nineteen nineteen in Seattle, so it's been a minute.

1859
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:39,040
Speaker 8: But the genius of this plan is the fact that

1860
01:37:40,160 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 8: it's illegal. And I mean, of course, you know, laws

1861
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:46,280
Speaker 8: aren't real, but when you're doing this kind of thing,

1862
01:37:46,439 --> 01:37:50,040
Speaker 8: it operating within these constraints, it is helpful when you're

1863
01:37:50,080 --> 01:37:53,439
Speaker 8: not actively breaking the law because that helps you get

1864
01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 8: more shit done. Right, So, what Shannon is proposing. You're saying, Okay,

1865
01:37:56,880 --> 01:37:59,759
Speaker 8: we're going to set our contract to expire around this time,

1866
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:02,439
Speaker 8: and we want a whole bunch of other big uniers

1867
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 8: to do the same thing. Now, if all of their

1868
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:08,840
Speaker 8: union contracts happened to expire around the same time, and

1869
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:12,639
Speaker 8: then their negotiations happened to break down, and they happen

1870
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:16,519
Speaker 8: to go on strike at the same time, creating an

1871
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:20,200
Speaker 8: actual general strike, the government can't really do shit about it.

1872
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:24,280
Speaker 8: I mean, you mentioned before the sympathy strikes, solidarity strikes,

1873
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:29,760
Speaker 8: they are illegal because of this nineteen forty seven law

1874
01:38:29,800 --> 01:38:32,920
Speaker 8: called out the taff Hartley Act. Essentially, that means if

1875
01:38:32,960 --> 01:38:37,080
Speaker 8: say your warehouse you're part of the Teamsters, you go

1876
01:38:37,120 --> 01:38:40,080
Speaker 8: on strike, and then the coffee shop next door is like, oh, yeah,

1877
01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:41,679
Speaker 8: we support you, We're going to go on strike too.

1878
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:45,800
Speaker 8: They can't do that. That's breaking the law. But in

1879
01:38:45,840 --> 01:38:49,280
Speaker 8: this different hypothetical, if they their contract was up at

1880
01:38:49,320 --> 01:38:52,160
Speaker 8: the same time as your contract, you both want to

1881
01:38:52,200 --> 01:38:54,639
Speaker 8: strike at the same time, that's legal, and it's also

1882
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:57,280
Speaker 8: very disruptive to that little corridor you're working in. And

1883
01:38:57,320 --> 01:39:00,160
Speaker 8: imagine doing that on a national level. Imagine if the

1884
01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:06,800
Speaker 8: flight attendants, the Teamsters the UAW, Starbucks, fucking the air

1885
01:39:06,840 --> 01:39:12,280
Speaker 8: traffic controllers, the longshoremen, like all of these incredibly important

1886
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:16,040
Speaker 8: infrastructure wise jobs happen to go on strike at the

1887
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:19,120
Speaker 8: same time, that would shut down the whole fucking country. Yeah,

1888
01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:23,640
Speaker 8: and it would be legal, which is so fun. I

1889
01:39:23,840 --> 01:39:24,559
Speaker 8: love to see it.

1890
01:39:25,160 --> 01:39:25,320
Speaker 5: You know.

1891
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:30,320
Speaker 2: Obviously, when you are talking about radical social change, illegality

1892
01:39:30,720 --> 01:39:34,560
Speaker 2: is always on the table. But it's not the smartest

1893
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:37,160
Speaker 2: place to start from when you're talking about something like this,

1894
01:39:37,240 --> 01:39:39,400
Speaker 2: where you have the option to get a lot done,

1895
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,639
Speaker 2: you know, within within the protections of the law, which

1896
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 2: makes it easier to get more people on board, It

1897
01:39:45,720 --> 01:39:48,439
Speaker 2: makes it easier to get critical mass. And if at

1898
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:51,240
Speaker 2: a later date, you know, the state were to take

1899
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:56,479
Speaker 2: illegal action that makes it impossible for you to continue legally, well,

1900
01:39:56,479 --> 01:39:59,240
Speaker 2: then you've got that critical mass behind you and potentially

1901
01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 2: probably radic you know.

1902
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:04,639
Speaker 8: Right, and you have resources, you have infrastructure because big

1903
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:08,720
Speaker 8: unions have big strength funds. Yes, this is the thing.

1904
01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:11,800
Speaker 8: The UAW has hundreds of millions of dollars in the

1905
01:40:11,840 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 8: bank that they're saving for just this purpose when their

1906
01:40:14,920 --> 01:40:17,160
Speaker 8: workers go on striketh so they can continue to pay

1907
01:40:17,200 --> 01:40:19,200
Speaker 8: them and cover their health insurance.

1908
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,280
Speaker 2: Yea, that's why you pay dues, right, Like, yeah.

1909
01:40:22,120 --> 01:40:24,960
Speaker 8: It's it's literally like strike insurance. And a lot of

1910
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 8: the big unions have this set up. They have comms teams,

1911
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:32,280
Speaker 8: they have legal teams, they have experience Like I know,

1912
01:40:32,760 --> 01:40:36,840
Speaker 8: as as radicals like we tend to be perhaps a

1913
01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:39,680
Speaker 8: little allergic to a lot of those things, especially if

1914
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:42,120
Speaker 8: they're not particularly in line with our specific vision of

1915
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:47,200
Speaker 8: the future, but they're really helpful to have, you know, Like,

1916
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:50,200
Speaker 8: doing crimes is fun, and I support it pretty much

1917
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:53,960
Speaker 8: at all times, but getting shit done is way more

1918
01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:58,240
Speaker 8: fun and way more satisfying, you know, like it's nice

1919
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:00,840
Speaker 8: to win. It's nice to win.

1920
01:41:01,320 --> 01:41:04,080
Speaker 2: Unions are kind of on a role right now. Right,

1921
01:41:04,320 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 2: we've all watched some really substantial gains for working people

1922
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:14,280
Speaker 2: just in the last six months, and it's worth paying

1923
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:16,320
Speaker 2: attention to why. And part of it is that, like,

1924
01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:20,439
Speaker 2: you're not relying upon people risking everything, many of whom

1925
01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:25,120
Speaker 2: can't write. You can't very easily ethically defend if you

1926
01:41:25,200 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 2: are like a single parent who is responsible for multiple children.

1927
01:41:29,720 --> 01:41:32,000
Speaker 2: You can't defend going out and busting a bunch of

1928
01:41:32,080 --> 01:41:34,439
Speaker 2: windows and then getting locked up super easy, because you

1929
01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:37,040
Speaker 2: do you have responsibilities. You've got people to care for,

1930
01:41:37,200 --> 01:41:37,479
Speaker 2: you know.

1931
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:40,400
Speaker 8: Right, you have elders at home, or if you're a

1932
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:42,840
Speaker 8: disabled person, if you're a media compromise. You can't go

1933
01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:45,120
Speaker 8: out there and get involved in that type of situation.

1934
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:47,320
Speaker 2: You can't risk being around that many people. Maybe, but

1935
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:48,000
Speaker 2: you can strike.

1936
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:51,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, this is that you can respect a picket line,

1937
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:53,600
Speaker 8: you can help support, you can help offer some of

1938
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:56,040
Speaker 8: the resources we need for folks to get out there,

1939
01:41:56,200 --> 01:42:00,880
Speaker 8: like utilizing this existing infrastructure, in these existing resources. It

1940
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:04,040
Speaker 8: just opens up the possibility for more people to get

1941
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:06,400
Speaker 8: involved in a way that's less harmful to them, to

1942
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:09,920
Speaker 8: the people, like we want to harm the bosses and yeah,

1943
01:42:10,120 --> 01:42:11,880
Speaker 8: you know the status quote, we don't want to hurt

1944
01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:12,599
Speaker 8: our people.

1945
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think there's a lot of wisdom in this. Now.

1946
01:42:17,080 --> 01:42:19,320
Speaker 2: The question is when we say that this is workable,

1947
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:22,040
Speaker 2: does that mean that like it's a guarantee or it

1948
01:42:22,080 --> 01:42:24,320
Speaker 2: would be easy. Of course not. No, Like you're talking,

1949
01:42:24,680 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 2: you're still talking about a struggle against people who have

1950
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:30,679
Speaker 2: I don't know the majority of the resources the human

1951
01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:35,320
Speaker 2: race has ever marshalled in like a financial form right

1952
01:42:35,840 --> 01:42:37,920
Speaker 2: at their beck and call. So that's you know, this

1953
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:42,640
Speaker 2: is still a frightening and potentially pretty dangerous thing, but

1954
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:46,840
Speaker 2: it is a workable plan that has infrastructure behind it,

1955
01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:49,920
Speaker 2: and that crucially, you know, the downside is that the

1956
01:42:49,960 --> 01:42:53,280
Speaker 2: bosses know that people are talking about this, and they

1957
01:42:53,320 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 2: have time to prepare. But the nice side is that like, well,

1958
01:42:56,120 --> 01:43:00,000
Speaker 2: so do we, and that's generally possible.

1959
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:04,280
Speaker 8: This is the thing I've seen again on social media,

1960
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:06,639
Speaker 8: people saying like, oh, we have to wait five years,

1961
01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:08,760
Speaker 8: or have to wait four and a half years. That's ridiculous.

1962
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:11,080
Speaker 8: Why don't we just do it now? You can do

1963
01:43:11,120 --> 01:43:13,880
Speaker 8: a lot of planning and a lot of building in

1964
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:16,800
Speaker 8: four and a half years. You need that time to

1965
01:43:16,960 --> 01:43:20,320
Speaker 8: actually pull something off of this magnitude. And also, I

1966
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:23,320
Speaker 8: mean a lot of unions that perhaps might be interested

1967
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 8: in this, like they have contracts of their own that

1968
01:43:26,600 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 8: they need to sort of work out the timing for.

1969
01:43:29,920 --> 01:43:33,439
Speaker 8: You know, this plan only works if we can actually

1970
01:43:33,520 --> 01:43:36,240
Speaker 8: maneuver away for a lot of these big contracts that

1971
01:43:36,320 --> 01:43:39,519
Speaker 8: big powerful unions to expire at the same time. If

1972
01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:43,040
Speaker 8: someone's contract, if the team SERTs, next contract expires in

1973
01:43:43,160 --> 01:43:46,720
Speaker 8: twenty twenty seven, like okay, well I think they're not

1974
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 8: gonna be able to play ball and you really want

1975
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:50,240
Speaker 8: the team Sters if you want to play this type

1976
01:43:50,240 --> 01:43:54,799
Speaker 8: of game. And then another hurdle that I think it's

1977
01:43:54,840 --> 01:43:58,679
Speaker 8: it's unfortunate, is that you know Sean Fame, Big Sean

1978
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:03,040
Speaker 8: A what a man. He's very out there and very

1979
01:44:03,040 --> 01:44:08,360
Speaker 8: outspoken about opposing capitalism, about this being class war. He's

1980
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:13,040
Speaker 8: on the level, but he is a rarity among major

1981
01:44:13,280 --> 01:44:16,880
Speaker 8: labor union leaders. Like there are some leaders that would

1982
01:44:16,880 --> 01:44:20,120
Speaker 8: be down to cloud, you know, like Sarah Nelson's out here,

1983
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:23,439
Speaker 8: like Mark Diamondstein with the Postal workers, Like there are

1984
01:44:23,479 --> 01:44:27,599
Speaker 8: some very cool, very progressive, if not radical union leaders

1985
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:31,639
Speaker 8: out there, but there's also a lot of conservative or

1986
01:44:31,760 --> 01:44:35,960
Speaker 8: just sort of wishy washy Democrats style union leaders too

1987
01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:38,519
Speaker 8: that would not want to have any part of this.

1988
01:44:39,200 --> 01:44:42,080
Speaker 8: And a big part of convincing them to get on

1989
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:44,120
Speaker 8: the level and become involved in this kind of effort

1990
01:44:44,320 --> 01:44:45,920
Speaker 8: that's going to come down to what the rank and

1991
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:49,680
Speaker 8: file have to say. That's going to come that that

1992
01:44:49,760 --> 01:44:51,759
Speaker 8: pressure is going to have to come up through the ranks.

1993
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:54,600
Speaker 8: I mean, the reason we have Sean Fain and we

1994
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:57,720
Speaker 8: have Sean O'Brien of the Teamsters, and we have this

1995
01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:00,920
Speaker 8: kind of newer wave of more s and Milson union

1996
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:03,759
Speaker 8: leadership is because of what the rank and file have done,

1997
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,479
Speaker 8: Like Teamsters for Democratic Union organized for years to get

1998
01:45:07,479 --> 01:45:09,960
Speaker 8: that reform slaid in, to get Sean O. Brian in

1999
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:13,439
Speaker 8: there to take on ups Sean Fayne is the first

2000
01:45:13,600 --> 01:45:18,840
Speaker 8: ever democratically elected union leader in uaw's history because of

2001
01:45:18,880 --> 01:45:21,840
Speaker 8: a lot of organizing around reform that came from the

2002
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:25,400
Speaker 8: rank and file that took years to get him there.

2003
01:45:25,479 --> 01:45:27,800
Speaker 8: We would not have big Sean if people had not

2004
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:30,599
Speaker 8: invested years of their life towards organizing for this goal.

2005
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:33,599
Speaker 8: And so now we have this four to five year

2006
01:45:33,640 --> 01:45:37,640
Speaker 8: span where we can push our own union leaders in

2007
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:41,000
Speaker 8: that right direction to plant those seeds to try and

2008
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 8: really build something that they can't refuse to get on

2009
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:46,760
Speaker 8: board with. But that's going to take time too. I

2010
01:45:46,760 --> 01:45:49,320
Speaker 8: think people need to really recognize that, like unions are

2011
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:54,080
Speaker 8: not unfortunately they're all like these magical progressive silver bullets.

2012
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 8: Like there's some pretty shitty people in union leadership across

2013
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:00,639
Speaker 8: the country, and we got to do of the battle.

2014
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:02,519
Speaker 8: We really want to get people on board.

2015
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's you know, upsides and downsides when we compare

2016
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:10,560
Speaker 2: it to like sort of how radicals like to particularly

2017
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:14,559
Speaker 2: the anarchist radical organizing where you know, the downside is

2018
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:19,040
Speaker 2: you do these are organizations that are hierarchical, They can

2019
01:46:19,040 --> 01:46:21,880
Speaker 2: be stratified. It can make it very difficult to push

2020
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:26,120
Speaker 2: for change. It can make them just as our democracy

2021
01:46:26,360 --> 01:46:29,400
Speaker 2: is not super responsive to what the majority of people want,

2022
01:46:30,040 --> 01:46:33,480
Speaker 2: union leadership in a number of cases is not responsive

2023
01:46:33,520 --> 01:46:36,040
Speaker 2: to what people want. They've also had, especially if you

2024
01:46:36,080 --> 01:46:39,000
Speaker 2: go back to like, you know, the mid century, last

2025
01:46:39,000 --> 01:46:43,840
Speaker 2: century not short history of corruption, right, that's been a

2026
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:45,800
Speaker 2: problem you needs have dealt with in the past two

2027
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:49,240
Speaker 2: These are issues you don't have as much with autonomously

2028
01:46:49,360 --> 01:46:53,719
Speaker 2: organized you know, small groups of activists on the street.

2029
01:46:54,280 --> 01:46:57,599
Speaker 2: The thing that makes them a lot stronger in many

2030
01:46:57,600 --> 01:47:00,839
Speaker 2: ways is the fact that they have more resource to marshall.

2031
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:05,240
Speaker 2: They have ways of addressing grievances other than like kind

2032
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:09,240
Speaker 2: of just personal conflicts that are built into the system,

2033
01:47:09,280 --> 01:47:13,240
Speaker 2: and ways of kind of pushing for change that if

2034
01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:16,000
Speaker 2: you get enough people on board with you can make

2035
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:19,920
Speaker 2: And then you have the weight of this organization with

2036
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:22,519
Speaker 2: a degree of power and social cachet behind it, and

2037
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:27,439
Speaker 2: so I think the ability it's much harder to steer

2038
01:47:27,520 --> 01:47:29,559
Speaker 2: these things. But when you get them pointed in the

2039
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:33,720
Speaker 2: right direction. They have more staying power than kind of

2040
01:47:33,960 --> 01:47:37,760
Speaker 2: small autonomous groups usually do, and I think there's a

2041
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:41,280
Speaker 2: lot of potential power in that, which is why I

2042
01:47:41,320 --> 01:47:43,000
Speaker 2: think this is a workable plan.

2043
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:46,920
Speaker 8: And this is why more anarchists and socialists and communists,

2044
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:49,280
Speaker 8: everybody who wants to really get out there and cause

2045
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:53,360
Speaker 8: some good trouble will say, like, you need to get

2046
01:47:53,400 --> 01:47:57,160
Speaker 8: involved in your union. You need to organize your workplace

2047
01:47:57,560 --> 01:47:59,760
Speaker 8: if your if your job is not such that you

2048
01:47:59,800 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 8: can join a traditional union, you need to get involved

2049
01:48:02,920 --> 01:48:06,080
Speaker 8: in your local labor community anyway, and try and connect

2050
01:48:06,120 --> 01:48:08,360
Speaker 8: with people who are part of those unions and try

2051
01:48:08,360 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 8: and kind of get them to see the light. You

2052
01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:14,640
Speaker 8: need to talk to people, not online in person. You

2053
01:48:14,760 --> 01:48:16,840
Speaker 8: got to go talk to people who are different from me,

2054
01:48:16,920 --> 01:48:19,960
Speaker 8: who might have different politics, and try and get them

2055
01:48:19,960 --> 01:48:22,599
Speaker 8: to see why this is something that we could do

2056
01:48:23,200 --> 01:48:26,360
Speaker 8: that could help them, that could help everyone. This is

2057
01:48:26,400 --> 01:48:28,840
Speaker 8: something I emphasize a lot because I'm an anarchist too,

2058
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:30,280
Speaker 8: even though I know it's not like a big old

2059
01:48:30,320 --> 01:48:32,920
Speaker 8: Debbie Downer right now talking about all this legal stuff,

2060
01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:36,679
Speaker 8: but I'm also practical and I've also spent a lot

2061
01:48:36,680 --> 01:48:39,599
Speaker 8: of time talking to union members who see the world

2062
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:41,720
Speaker 8: a lot differently from me. Like I think a lot

2063
01:48:41,760 --> 01:48:45,800
Speaker 8: of my most recent impactful work is you know, stuff

2064
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:47,840
Speaker 8: I've been doing in the Deep South and an Appalachia,

2065
01:48:48,479 --> 01:48:51,640
Speaker 8: and no one there is impressed with my guillotine tattoos,

2066
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:55,640
Speaker 8: but they do see the need to deal with this

2067
01:48:55,960 --> 01:48:58,439
Speaker 8: situation where all the rich people have all the stuff

2068
01:48:58,479 --> 01:49:01,360
Speaker 8: and they're getting screwed. That is a good starting point

2069
01:49:01,439 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 8: for a lot. Yeah and yeah, it's easy to say

2070
01:49:05,400 --> 01:49:07,240
Speaker 8: join a union, like not everyone can do that, but

2071
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:10,320
Speaker 8: everybody can find a way to talk to somebody who's

2072
01:49:10,360 --> 01:49:13,320
Speaker 8: connected to a union, who's part of a labor movement,

2073
01:49:13,400 --> 01:49:16,519
Speaker 8: part of a labor organization, Like we need everyone to

2074
01:49:16,520 --> 01:49:18,120
Speaker 8: get involved however they can.

2075
01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:24,720
Speaker 2: I want to note significant potential for the radicals are

2076
01:49:24,840 --> 01:49:28,000
Speaker 2: kind of radicals to be useful within this in a

2077
01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:30,920
Speaker 2: direct way from just a recent example. Right in Portland,

2078
01:49:31,400 --> 01:49:34,200
Speaker 2: the teachers are going on strike. I believe that has

2079
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:38,760
Speaker 2: happened today, and they had a big march not too

2080
01:49:38,800 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 2: long ago that some of my friends were at because

2081
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,640
Speaker 2: they're teachers. And one of the things that happened on

2082
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:46,360
Speaker 2: that march it was the same day as a Palestinian

2083
01:49:46,400 --> 01:49:49,439
Speaker 2: solidarity march. And at both of these marches that at

2084
01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:54,000
Speaker 2: large thousands of people, the quirkers and the security were

2085
01:49:54,040 --> 01:49:56,080
Speaker 2: all kind of the same folks, and they were all

2086
01:49:56,120 --> 01:49:59,160
Speaker 2: folks that were like, came out of the Portland radical scene.

2087
01:49:59,160 --> 01:50:02,479
Speaker 2: We're there in the twent protests a huge because corking. Corking,

2088
01:50:02,479 --> 01:50:04,840
Speaker 2: if you're not aware, is like going ahead of into

2089
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:07,559
Speaker 2: the sides of a protest, like close traffic briefly as

2090
01:50:07,560 --> 01:50:09,960
Speaker 2: people walk by, so folks don't get hit by cars.

2091
01:50:09,960 --> 01:50:14,240
Speaker 2: It's a safety thing, right, And so people were kind

2092
01:50:14,280 --> 01:50:17,479
Speaker 2: of like the people who were doing that are radicals,

2093
01:50:17,479 --> 01:50:22,240
Speaker 2: are members of generally like these autonomously organized groups who

2094
01:50:22,400 --> 01:50:26,799
Speaker 2: are very useful in helping these because you know, people

2095
01:50:26,840 --> 01:50:29,799
Speaker 2: have experienced, you know, unions there may be experience striking,

2096
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:32,439
Speaker 2: but a lot of unions haven't struck in a long time, right,

2097
01:50:32,479 --> 01:50:34,960
Speaker 2: because it doesn't happen all that often. And even if

2098
01:50:34,960 --> 01:50:38,160
Speaker 2: they have, most of these guys, especially these older guys

2099
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:41,799
Speaker 2: and ladies and other folks, these these older union members

2100
01:50:42,080 --> 01:50:44,920
Speaker 2: probably have not participated in a large march in the

2101
01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:48,160
Speaker 2: modern era of protests where there's dangers like getting rammed

2102
01:50:48,200 --> 01:50:50,960
Speaker 2: by cars and stuff, and so the people who have

2103
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:53,000
Speaker 2: these the straight medics and stuff who have that kind

2104
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:57,000
Speaker 2: of experience hugely useful. Not the only thing. People who

2105
01:50:57,040 --> 01:51:00,800
Speaker 2: are striking often need stuff handwarmers or are always appreciated

2106
01:51:01,160 --> 01:51:04,400
Speaker 2: water warm food, things that like keep people's morale up,

2107
01:51:04,560 --> 01:51:09,160
Speaker 2: Organizing like sympathy demonstrations like alongside strikers and whatnot to

2108
01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:11,799
Speaker 2: help them keep their numbers up. All of that stuff

2109
01:51:11,840 --> 01:51:15,880
Speaker 2: can be really useful ways for these autonomously organized, kind

2110
01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:19,080
Speaker 2: of smaller groups of radicals to participate in a meaningful

2111
01:51:19,080 --> 01:51:22,200
Speaker 2: way in something like this. That's not the only degree

2112
01:51:22,240 --> 01:51:24,280
Speaker 2: to which that's possible, but like those are just the

2113
01:51:24,320 --> 01:51:25,479
Speaker 2: examples that come to mind.

2114
01:51:25,920 --> 01:51:30,320
Speaker 8: Absolutely, we've talked a lot about legality, and illegality is

2115
01:51:30,400 --> 01:51:32,799
Speaker 8: also something that is very much a part of labor

2116
01:51:32,920 --> 01:51:36,400
Speaker 8: history and its present. And I would say it's future

2117
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:41,360
Speaker 8: folks who are perhaps more comfortable with getting into perhaps

2118
01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:45,240
Speaker 8: more confrontational moments with cops who are trying to mess

2119
01:51:45,280 --> 01:51:48,479
Speaker 8: with the picket line or scabs who are trying to

2120
01:51:48,520 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 8: be violent towards striking workers, or even just like you said,

2121
01:51:52,880 --> 01:51:56,920
Speaker 8: like surveillance and safety and medic work like that is

2122
01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,280
Speaker 8: all and that is all important too. I mean, not

2123
01:51:59,400 --> 01:52:03,720
Speaker 8: every I've been on some pretty wild picket lines, and

2124
01:52:03,760 --> 01:52:06,080
Speaker 8: not everyone there is really that concerned with what the

2125
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:09,160
Speaker 8: law has to say about certain things. Once things get

2126
01:52:09,200 --> 01:52:12,840
Speaker 8: a little heated, I mean, there are points I mean

2127
01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 8: and things I've covered, and we've seen this continue to happen,

2128
01:52:15,320 --> 01:52:18,639
Speaker 8: where people try and drive into the picket line and

2129
01:52:19,120 --> 01:52:21,760
Speaker 8: or try to attack people in the picket line, and

2130
01:52:21,880 --> 01:52:25,560
Speaker 8: that is I mean, that deserves a variety of responses,

2131
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:27,840
Speaker 8: I think. And also something to note is that when

2132
01:52:28,479 --> 01:52:31,800
Speaker 8: these are strikes called by union leadership, they follow they

2133
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:35,639
Speaker 8: tend to follow a set of rules because predominantly, like

2134
01:52:35,640 --> 01:52:38,600
Speaker 8: like generally speaking, union leadership doesn't want their members to

2135
01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:40,400
Speaker 8: go to jail. They don't want them to get in

2136
01:52:40,439 --> 01:52:44,000
Speaker 8: any kind of situations like that. So they'll say, you know, okay,

2137
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:46,000
Speaker 8: well you stay on the sidewalk, or oh the cops

2138
01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:48,200
Speaker 8: said to move, so we move, or this has to

2139
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:50,840
Speaker 8: be non violent, or you know, there's kind of a

2140
01:52:50,880 --> 01:52:54,960
Speaker 8: set of circumstances there that union members are required to follow.

2141
01:52:55,640 --> 01:52:57,519
Speaker 8: But if you're there to support and you're not a

2142
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 8: member of that union, as long as you have consent

2143
01:53:00,600 --> 01:53:03,880
Speaker 8: and support the people there're you're there trying to stick

2144
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:07,120
Speaker 8: up for then you have a lot more leeway than

2145
01:53:07,160 --> 01:53:10,760
Speaker 8: someone that has, you know, a union leader to answer to. Like,

2146
01:53:10,840 --> 01:53:13,200
Speaker 8: there's a lot of creative ways you can get involved.

2147
01:53:13,600 --> 01:53:17,679
Speaker 8: And one thing that I think hasn't really been discussed

2148
01:53:17,680 --> 01:53:19,559
Speaker 8: as much in like the online discourse or whatever, but

2149
01:53:19,600 --> 01:53:23,639
Speaker 8: I think it's important to think about, even if you're

2150
01:53:23,640 --> 01:53:26,360
Speaker 8: not a person who is able to participate in that

2151
01:53:26,520 --> 01:53:29,240
Speaker 8: on the street type of way, if there's a huge

2152
01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:31,760
Speaker 8: strike going on in your city and you're not part

2153
01:53:31,800 --> 01:53:35,479
Speaker 8: of a union, but you want to get involved. Sick

2154
01:53:35,479 --> 01:53:39,120
Speaker 8: outs have a very long, illustrious history in the labor movement.

2155
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:42,439
Speaker 8: If you happen to get sick that day, what's your

2156
01:53:42,439 --> 01:53:45,920
Speaker 8: boss gonna do? You know, assuming you have those kind

2157
01:53:45,960 --> 01:53:47,479
Speaker 8: of protections. If you don't, then you have to make

2158
01:53:47,520 --> 01:53:50,439
Speaker 8: your own you know, caveat, caveat, caveat. But if you're

2159
01:53:50,439 --> 01:53:53,880
Speaker 8: in a position where you can take off work that

2160
01:53:53,960 --> 01:53:56,080
Speaker 8: day or for a couple of days and it just

2161
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:59,040
Speaker 8: happens to coincide with that massive strike that's shut down

2162
01:53:59,040 --> 01:54:01,720
Speaker 8: everything else, and if you convince all your coworkers that

2163
01:54:01,760 --> 01:54:04,080
Speaker 8: you're a shoped to do the same thing, you're not

2164
01:54:04,200 --> 01:54:08,640
Speaker 8: breaking the law. You're protected, but you're also part of

2165
01:54:08,680 --> 01:54:12,479
Speaker 8: the shutdown effort, like sickouts. One of the reasons that

2166
01:54:12,560 --> 01:54:15,040
Speaker 8: people were so spooked around twenty nineteen when the government

2167
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:18,240
Speaker 8: shutdown was looming, before Sarah Nelson really brought out the

2168
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:23,120
Speaker 8: big Gs wars that we're seeing sickouts at airports and

2169
01:54:23,240 --> 01:54:25,679
Speaker 8: flights were being canceled in New York, and I think

2170
01:54:25,840 --> 01:54:28,679
Speaker 8: la and that was starting to spook the people in charge,

2171
01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:31,240
Speaker 8: because if enough people don't show up for work at

2172
01:54:31,240 --> 01:54:34,600
Speaker 8: the airport, nothing's going to happen at that airport. Yeah,

2173
01:54:34,640 --> 01:54:36,760
Speaker 8: and there are a lot of different workplaces where all

2174
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:40,160
Speaker 8: of their workers not showing up could be a potential problem.

2175
01:54:40,440 --> 01:54:43,760
Speaker 8: So I just encourage people to think creatively about the

2176
01:54:43,760 --> 01:54:46,560
Speaker 8: ways they can get involved, even if they can't necessarily

2177
01:54:47,760 --> 01:54:51,240
Speaker 8: get involved on the formal union side, Like, there's so

2178
01:54:51,400 --> 01:54:55,320
Speaker 8: much we can do from each according to his ability

2179
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:58,720
Speaker 8: to each courting to his means. You know That'll Chestnut,

2180
01:54:59,080 --> 01:54:59,720
Speaker 8: I love it.

2181
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:03,360
Speaker 2: It's so important to bring up airline workers because one

2182
01:55:03,400 --> 01:55:05,240
Speaker 2: of the things they the things that they have that

2183
01:55:05,320 --> 01:55:10,080
Speaker 2: other people don't is they can't be replaced in the

2184
01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:12,680
Speaker 2: same way. Right you can if all your Mauristas go

2185
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:15,200
Speaker 2: on strike, you can potentially bring in whoever, and they

2186
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:17,120
Speaker 2: will not be nearly as good at it, right, the

2187
01:55:17,120 --> 01:55:20,040
Speaker 2: company will not make nearly as much money, but legally

2188
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:23,880
Speaker 2: there's nothing stopping them from doing that. If you have

2189
01:55:23,960 --> 01:55:26,880
Speaker 2: a bunch of ground workers call in, right, or a

2190
01:55:26,920 --> 01:55:29,680
Speaker 2: bunch of stewardess is you have to replace them with

2191
01:55:29,760 --> 01:55:33,520
Speaker 2: people who are qualified groundworkers. Like, there's a whole process,

2192
01:55:33,560 --> 01:55:35,600
Speaker 2: there's like a serial Like there's a lot that they

2193
01:55:35,640 --> 01:55:37,400
Speaker 2: have to know how to do, a lot of compliance

2194
01:55:37,440 --> 01:55:40,000
Speaker 2: that has to be done because thousands and thousands of

2195
01:55:40,040 --> 01:55:42,480
Speaker 2: lives are at stake, right, same thing with medical workers,

2196
01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:45,160
Speaker 2: right when when you've got a job where like they

2197
01:55:45,200 --> 01:55:47,800
Speaker 2: can't if like a bunch of nurses go on strike,

2198
01:55:48,160 --> 01:55:50,240
Speaker 2: well you have to replace them with nurses, right, And

2199
01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:53,360
Speaker 2: there's a very limited supply, So there's a lot of

2200
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:55,240
Speaker 2: leverage that these organizations have.

2201
01:55:55,920 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 8: Does The airline industry is incredibly densely unionized too, So

2202
01:56:00,480 --> 01:56:04,320
Speaker 8: if all of the union flooding tendants aren't available, then

2203
01:56:04,480 --> 01:56:07,240
Speaker 8: no one's going to be available. Yeah, it's one of

2204
01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:11,320
Speaker 8: the plus sides of having a very densely organized industry,

2205
01:56:11,360 --> 01:56:13,200
Speaker 8: which is why we need to keep organizing too. In

2206
01:56:13,240 --> 01:56:15,080
Speaker 8: these next four and a half years.

2207
01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:18,440
Speaker 2: Well, Kim. I think that's most of what I had

2208
01:56:18,440 --> 01:56:19,880
Speaker 2: to say. Do you have anything else you wanted to

2209
01:56:19,920 --> 01:56:22,040
Speaker 2: get into on this topic before we roll out?

2210
01:56:22,440 --> 01:56:25,720
Speaker 8: Hmm, I think we've covered most things. I do want

2211
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:28,120
Speaker 8: to emphasize, like I don't want to be a wet

2212
01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:31,640
Speaker 8: blanket on people who are excited. I'm not so excited

2213
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:35,080
Speaker 8: and so heartened to see the amount of interest and

2214
01:56:35,240 --> 01:56:38,120
Speaker 8: energy we're seeing around this general strike idea, because like

2215
01:56:38,360 --> 01:56:41,080
Speaker 8: five years ago, that would have I mean, that would

2216
01:56:41,160 --> 01:56:43,360
Speaker 8: not have escaped containment, right, we would have just been

2217
01:56:43,400 --> 01:56:47,240
Speaker 8: talking amongst ourselves about it. But to have the head

2218
01:56:47,320 --> 01:56:50,840
Speaker 8: of a union who has four hundred thousand members, who

2219
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 8: just whipped the shit out of the Big three automakers,

2220
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:56,400
Speaker 8: who's getting all these headlines to talk about a general

2221
01:56:56,400 --> 01:56:59,400
Speaker 8: strike in a meaningful way, like, yes, maybe he's not

2222
01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:04,360
Speaker 8: out here throwing Molotov cocktails the way we perhaps would

2223
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:08,440
Speaker 8: want to see someone doing that, but it still a

2224
01:57:08,640 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 8: huge deal. And even if you know, the mainstream organized

2225
01:57:14,200 --> 01:57:16,960
Speaker 8: labor movement isn't as radical as a lot of us

2226
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:19,240
Speaker 8: within it would like to see it, we have a

2227
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:22,080
Speaker 8: lot of time now to try and pull things in

2228
01:57:22,120 --> 01:57:25,360
Speaker 8: that direction. I feel like a dam has burst in

2229
01:57:25,400 --> 01:57:28,760
Speaker 8: a way, and if anything, this is a moment of

2230
01:57:29,440 --> 01:57:33,600
Speaker 8: opportunity and of working together and trying to see different

2231
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:36,120
Speaker 8: perspectives in a way that gets us all closer to

2232
01:57:36,160 --> 01:57:39,200
Speaker 8: the point we really need to be. Absolutely, we take

2233
01:57:39,240 --> 01:57:40,400
Speaker 8: all this shit down.

2234
01:57:40,600 --> 01:57:45,360
Speaker 2: All right. I am in agreement, Kim. People should look

2235
01:57:45,440 --> 01:57:47,360
Speaker 2: up your book fight like hell.

2236
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:50,040
Speaker 8: Yeah at the Untold History of American labor.

2237
01:57:50,280 --> 01:57:54,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and what else should they look up? R e U.

2238
01:57:54,880 --> 01:57:58,880
Speaker 8: I'm still unfortunately on Twitter, so I'm there, grim Kim. Now,

2239
01:57:58,920 --> 01:58:01,160
Speaker 8: I'm a freelancer a lot for in these times. I

2240
01:58:01,200 --> 01:58:03,880
Speaker 8: have a column at teen Vogue, I write for a

2241
01:58:03,880 --> 01:58:06,600
Speaker 8: fast company, and I'm kind of all over the place

2242
01:58:06,920 --> 01:58:09,839
Speaker 8: so and I do a lot of book talks and stuff.

2243
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:12,080
Speaker 8: So I'm I'm around. If you want to talk to

2244
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:16,400
Speaker 8: your friendly neighborhood anarchist labor reporter, just to google me.

2245
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 8: But don't believe everything you read, because you know she.

2246
01:58:20,280 --> 01:58:24,920
Speaker 2: Didn't kill that guy. He was dead when she got there. Anyway, Kim,

2247
01:58:26,040 --> 01:58:26,960
Speaker 2: thank you so much.

2248
01:58:27,960 --> 01:58:29,040
Speaker 8: Thank you for having me.

2249
01:58:29,360 --> 01:58:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, thanks for being here, for showing up, and

2250
01:58:32,120 --> 01:58:36,240
Speaker 2: thank you wall for listening until next time. I don't know.

2251
01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:39,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, solidarity forever.

2252
01:58:39,520 --> 01:58:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a good that's a good welcome back

2253
01:58:58,080 --> 01:59:03,600
Speaker 2: to it could happen here a podcast about things falling apart,

2254
01:59:04,280 --> 01:59:07,280
Speaker 2: and sometimes about stuff that's less depressing than that. Today

2255
01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:12,000
Speaker 2: we're doing an episode that's I don't know, part funny

2256
01:59:12,120 --> 01:59:15,200
Speaker 2: and part hey, you should be aware of this thing

2257
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:17,760
Speaker 2: because it's it's kind of fucked up.

2258
01:59:18,240 --> 01:59:22,320
Speaker 7: It certainly could happen. It probably shouldn't. It probably shouldn't

2259
01:59:22,320 --> 01:59:24,400
Speaker 7: happen here, but it certainly could.

2260
01:59:24,720 --> 01:59:29,120
Speaker 2: But it certainly could. Garrison Davis is on the other line.

2261
01:59:29,120 --> 01:59:31,240
Speaker 2: That I mean other line. This isn't a phone call.

2262
01:59:31,320 --> 01:59:33,640
Speaker 2: That's the other voice that you are hearing right now.

2263
01:59:33,840 --> 01:59:36,680
Speaker 2: And earlier this year, Garrison and I went to CEES,

2264
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:41,560
Speaker 2: the Consumer Electronics show in Las Vegas, Nevada, where Garrison

2265
01:59:41,600 --> 01:59:44,280
Speaker 2: had a wonderful stay at Circus Circus that did not

2266
01:59:44,480 --> 01:59:45,800
Speaker 2: smell like dead clowns.

2267
01:59:47,800 --> 01:59:50,520
Speaker 7: But we we did not just shut down this summer

2268
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:53,120
Speaker 7: due to horrible infestation problems.

2269
01:59:53,520 --> 01:59:56,640
Speaker 2: Oh that's what we're staying next year too, buddy. Anyway,

2270
01:59:57,000 --> 01:59:59,480
Speaker 2: we encountered while we were going through all these different

2271
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:06,920
Speaker 2: technoology companies and whatnot, this very peculiar AI project and Garrison,

2272
02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:08,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to hand things over to you now, because

2273
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:10,880
Speaker 2: you're the one who was actually prepared an episode.

2274
02:00:11,320 --> 02:00:14,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, So I dug into this AI project more when

2275
02:00:14,840 --> 02:00:18,720
Speaker 7: I was making my ghost Conference episodes, and after just

2276
02:00:18,760 --> 02:00:22,080
Speaker 7: a few minutes of like doing like background checks and stuff,

2277
02:00:22,520 --> 02:00:25,680
Speaker 7: I realized that this would become its own episode because

2278
02:00:26,360 --> 02:00:32,160
Speaker 7: of how wild things got very very quickly. This company

2279
02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:36,560
Speaker 7: is called mind Bank AI. As the name suggests, they

2280
02:00:36,600 --> 02:00:41,520
Speaker 7: are an AI company based in Florida with the goal

2281
02:00:41,640 --> 02:00:47,160
Speaker 7: of creating personal digital replicas of living humans using artificial

2282
02:00:47,160 --> 02:00:52,400
Speaker 7: intelligence and an evolving NLP or natural language processing.

2283
02:00:53,320 --> 02:00:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2284
02:00:54,280 --> 02:00:58,000
Speaker 7: Basically these are algorithms that are used by GPT, chatbots,

2285
02:00:58,720 --> 02:01:03,720
Speaker 7: predictive texting, the digital assistance like Alexa and Siri. Yeah,

2286
02:01:03,920 --> 02:01:09,080
Speaker 7: language models that respond to feedback. They're pretty common these days.

2287
02:01:09,440 --> 02:01:12,400
Speaker 7: We encounter them a lot, right that they're whenever you're

2288
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:15,840
Speaker 7: typing on your iPhone, they they will generate text that

2289
02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:19,400
Speaker 7: they think you're gonna write. But what mind bank is

2290
02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:21,240
Speaker 7: trying to do is a little bit different.

2291
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:22,520
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2292
02:01:22,640 --> 02:01:25,400
Speaker 2: When we encounter them at Cees, their booth had on

2293
02:01:25,480 --> 02:01:27,960
Speaker 2: these signs that were it was stuff like like you know,

2294
02:01:28,000 --> 02:01:29,919
Speaker 2: set up a legacy for your kids.

2295
02:01:29,960 --> 02:01:30,160
Speaker 1: You know.

2296
02:01:31,320 --> 02:01:35,080
Speaker 2: It was basically advertising. This is a way to allow

2297
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:37,520
Speaker 2: a part of you to exist in digital form and

2298
02:01:37,560 --> 02:01:40,440
Speaker 2: communicate with your with your descendants forever.

2299
02:01:40,880 --> 02:01:45,240
Speaker 7: Yes, so we found them in the US government sponsored

2300
02:01:45,360 --> 02:01:49,040
Speaker 7: section of ce s, which is already a great sign. Yes,

2301
02:01:49,160 --> 02:01:55,960
Speaker 7: already already looking looking good. But unlike other kind of

2302
02:01:56,000 --> 02:01:59,480
Speaker 7: AI digital copies of humans, which typically are just language

2303
02:01:59,480 --> 02:02:02,720
Speaker 7: models that generate responses based on an archive of someone's

2304
02:02:02,760 --> 02:02:07,839
Speaker 7: writing or recorded interviews or online presence, mind Bank instead

2305
02:02:08,320 --> 02:02:12,640
Speaker 7: seeks to create an evolving, a unique digital twin by

2306
02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:16,480
Speaker 7: having a person input their personal data basically tons of

2307
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:21,080
Speaker 7: personal information about themselves into an AI on an ongoing basis,

2308
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:25,360
Speaker 7: and by analyzing your data inputs. Mind Bank says that

2309
02:02:25,400 --> 02:02:29,040
Speaker 7: your digital twin will quote unquote learn to think like you,

2310
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:33,840
Speaker 7: and their CEO claims that this process will eventually help

2311
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:35,560
Speaker 7: him achieve immortality.

2312
02:02:36,880 --> 02:02:40,160
Speaker 2: Oh oh, that's good. I hadn't caught that when we

2313
02:02:40,240 --> 02:02:43,120
Speaker 2: talked to the guy that he believed that that I love.

2314
02:02:43,160 --> 02:02:45,120
Speaker 2: Whenever you get these guys who are like I will

2315
02:02:45,200 --> 02:02:47,800
Speaker 2: just offload my brain onto a machine and then I

2316
02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:52,920
Speaker 2: will live forever in the cloud. And of course, man, yeah,

2317
02:02:52,360 --> 02:02:54,200
Speaker 2: that's how consciousness works.

2318
02:02:54,280 --> 02:02:59,160
Speaker 7: Absolutely, buddy, all right, I'm going to play this video next.

2319
02:03:01,240 --> 02:03:09,200
Speaker 9: Humanity is limited, our bodies age, our memories fade, Technology

2320
02:03:09,280 --> 02:03:17,360
Speaker 9: outpaces evolution. The solution is your personal digital twin, transfer

2321
02:03:17,400 --> 02:03:22,400
Speaker 9: your wisdom, become the best version of yourself, and live

2322
02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:25,000
Speaker 9: forever through data.

2323
02:03:25,280 --> 02:03:27,760
Speaker 7: Oh boy, let's go beyond.

2324
02:03:28,560 --> 02:03:31,560
Speaker 2: So all right, I got to know one thing before

2325
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:34,640
Speaker 2: you start in Garrison, which is that when they mention

2326
02:03:34,760 --> 02:03:37,800
Speaker 2: that like technology, like there's a line about like technology

2327
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:40,680
Speaker 2: making everything better, they're showing a man who has lost

2328
02:03:40,720 --> 02:03:43,720
Speaker 2: his leg walking on a treadmill with an artificial leg.

2329
02:03:43,800 --> 02:03:47,440
Speaker 2: And look, I think I have so much admiration for

2330
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:50,640
Speaker 2: people who make artificial limbs wonderful thing to be doing

2331
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:55,120
Speaker 2: great important work. They're not as good as real legs.

2332
02:03:55,160 --> 02:03:58,480
Speaker 2: Everyone agrees with this, right, Technology is not making it better.

2333
02:04:00,040 --> 02:04:05,720
Speaker 2: Someone lost a leg. Yeah that's what it said. No,

2334
02:04:06,080 --> 02:04:09,560
Speaker 2: that's technology allowing someone to adapt to a terrible, terrible

2335
02:04:10,120 --> 02:04:11,160
Speaker 2: thing that happened to them.

2336
02:04:12,120 --> 02:04:15,920
Speaker 7: But Robert, don't you want to live forever through data?

2337
02:04:16,120 --> 02:04:19,720
Speaker 2: No? No, I don't. I'm exhausted now, Garrison.

2338
02:04:20,880 --> 02:04:24,040
Speaker 7: Okay, all right, so let's go into this a little

2339
02:04:24,040 --> 02:04:28,920
Speaker 7: bit more. Your immortal digital twin is made possible quote

2340
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:32,720
Speaker 7: by safely storing your data. Over the years, artificial intelligence

2341
02:04:32,720 --> 02:04:35,160
Speaker 7: and computers of the future will have ample data to

2342
02:04:35,200 --> 02:04:39,120
Speaker 7: compile a digital version of yourself and predict your responses.

2343
02:04:39,920 --> 02:04:43,200
Speaker 7: So that that is their idea of how this thing works.

2344
02:04:43,640 --> 02:04:47,760
Speaker 7: Another one of their very very funny YouTube videos, titled

2345
02:04:47,960 --> 02:04:52,880
Speaker 7: The Vision, promises that quote, the next personal computer is

2346
02:04:53,080 --> 02:04:59,640
Speaker 7: you store your memories, your infinite potential, take advantage of

2347
02:04:59,800 --> 02:05:03,880
Speaker 7: a I enhanced humanity.

2348
02:05:04,160 --> 02:05:05,000
Speaker 2: God damn it.

2349
02:05:06,240 --> 02:05:07,920
Speaker 7: So that is their vision.

2350
02:05:08,080 --> 02:05:12,080
Speaker 2: My more personal computer absolutely is not me because I

2351
02:05:12,160 --> 02:05:15,320
Speaker 2: do not play Balder's Gate three very well, you know,

2352
02:05:15,680 --> 02:05:17,720
Speaker 2: like I can't run it on my hardware.

2353
02:05:18,280 --> 02:05:20,800
Speaker 7: Ah, well, that's that's why. It's that's why you got

2354
02:05:20,800 --> 02:05:23,480
Speaker 7: to buy the new Monster manual and then maybe it

2355
02:05:23,560 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 7: could all just be in your brain.

2356
02:05:25,320 --> 02:05:27,320
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, I am full of shit. D and D

2357
02:05:27,440 --> 02:05:29,879
Speaker 2: is still better when you run your hardware.

2358
02:05:29,960 --> 02:05:32,520
Speaker 7: Goddamn, this is the one thing you actually can do

2359
02:05:32,600 --> 02:05:33,840
Speaker 7: pretty good by yourself.

2360
02:05:34,200 --> 02:05:38,400
Speaker 2: Why did I pick that one? Yeah, it's just so like,

2361
02:05:38,720 --> 02:05:41,040
Speaker 2: I don't think most people buy this. I don't think

2362
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:42,640
Speaker 2: this probably is going to be a success. I don't

2363
02:05:42,640 --> 02:05:44,600
Speaker 2: think most pop I think most people's reaction to this

2364
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:48,360
Speaker 2: is like kind of sneering, which is the right reaction

2365
02:05:48,480 --> 02:05:53,000
Speaker 2: to this. But there are people who do feel this legitimately,

2366
02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:58,720
Speaker 2: and that is a thing of almost unfathomable sadness. Like, yeah,

2367
02:05:58,840 --> 02:06:01,560
Speaker 2: I had my angry athe period like a lot of people,

2368
02:06:01,640 --> 02:06:04,360
Speaker 2: but like I, I have so much. I'm so much

2369
02:06:04,400 --> 02:06:07,640
Speaker 2: more okay with Christianity than i am.

2370
02:06:07,720 --> 02:06:13,360
Speaker 7: Well this, oh yeah, absolutely. So before I get into

2371
02:06:13,360 --> 02:06:16,720
Speaker 7: how this is all supposed to quote unquote work, first

2372
02:06:16,800 --> 02:06:19,000
Speaker 7: I want to talk about how the founder and CEO

2373
02:06:19,440 --> 02:06:21,960
Speaker 7: says that he got the idea for this company, because

2374
02:06:22,000 --> 02:06:24,640
Speaker 7: I think it puts into focus how he sees this

2375
02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:30,520
Speaker 7: product ideally functioning in the future. So Emil Hamirez was

2376
02:06:30,560 --> 02:06:33,120
Speaker 7: writing a train with his four year old daughter. She

2377
02:06:33,280 --> 02:06:37,480
Speaker 7: was playing on her iPad and discovered Siri. She began

2378
02:06:37,520 --> 02:06:40,280
Speaker 7: talking with Siri and asking it questions like what do

2379
02:06:40,320 --> 02:06:43,680
Speaker 7: you eat? And do you have a mommy. I'll let

2380
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,000
Speaker 7: I'll let a meal tell the rest here.

2381
02:06:46,200 --> 02:06:49,960
Speaker 10: But thirty minutes later she was laughing and having a

2382
02:06:50,040 --> 02:06:53,280
Speaker 10: really like a nice time with Siri and she said, Siri,

2383
02:06:53,760 --> 02:06:57,640
Speaker 10: I love you. You're my best friend. And that struck

2384
02:06:57,680 --> 02:06:59,320
Speaker 10: a chord with me. That would that inspired me so

2385
02:06:59,400 --> 02:07:02,360
Speaker 10: much because I said to myself at that moment. Children

2386
02:07:02,400 --> 02:07:06,520
Speaker 10: don't see computers and devices as a tool. They see

2387
02:07:06,520 --> 02:07:10,400
Speaker 10: them as a companion. And today she speaks with Siri

2388
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:13,080
Speaker 10: or elects or any other device. But in the future,

2389
02:07:13,080 --> 02:07:14,440
Speaker 10: I want her to be able to speak to me,

2390
02:07:15,280 --> 02:07:16,920
Speaker 10: to be able to ask me a question, just like

2391
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:20,080
Speaker 10: she did the device and understanding the technology, I know

2392
02:07:20,120 --> 02:07:22,560
Speaker 10: that the only way that's possible. I'm able to take

2393
02:07:22,640 --> 02:07:25,680
Speaker 10: my thoughts and put them in with cloud so that

2394
02:07:25,720 --> 02:07:30,280
Speaker 10: then later she can access those that information. So that's

2395
02:07:30,280 --> 02:07:33,480
Speaker 10: how the idea for my bank came about. It's a

2396
02:07:33,480 --> 02:07:36,600
Speaker 10: place for you to store your ideas for the next generation.

2397
02:07:36,320 --> 02:07:36,800
Speaker 1: To tappen to.

2398
02:07:37,680 --> 02:07:43,200
Speaker 2: No, so the generations already linger too long. We had

2399
02:07:43,240 --> 02:07:46,880
Speaker 2: it right when people died when they were well, not died.

2400
02:07:46,920 --> 02:07:49,440
Speaker 2: But Logan's run had it right. We should kill everyone

2401
02:07:49,480 --> 02:07:55,080
Speaker 2: at thirty five. But this is so fucking offensive, Like

2402
02:07:55,360 --> 02:08:01,400
Speaker 2: the idea that first off, like if you're looking at

2403
02:08:01,720 --> 02:08:03,640
Speaker 2: we want a device, you know, a way to use

2404
02:08:03,640 --> 02:08:05,880
Speaker 2: technology to help people grieve or something, and like you

2405
02:08:05,960 --> 02:08:08,600
Speaker 2: decide maybe having a chatbot that they get you. I'm

2406
02:08:08,640 --> 02:08:11,680
Speaker 2: sure it's possible that that could be part of healthy grieving.

2407
02:08:11,720 --> 02:08:13,680
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say that that there's no place

2408
02:08:13,720 --> 02:08:18,440
Speaker 2: for that. But something that is definitely not just stupid,

2409
02:08:18,480 --> 02:08:22,240
Speaker 2: but toxic and poisonous is having a machine speak with

2410
02:08:22,360 --> 02:08:26,080
Speaker 2: the voice of a child's parent while that parent is alive,

2411
02:08:26,320 --> 02:08:29,440
Speaker 2: and confusing the child as to whether or not the

2412
02:08:29,520 --> 02:08:32,920
Speaker 2: phone or their parent is conscious. Like that seems bad

2413
02:08:32,960 --> 02:08:33,160
Speaker 2: to me.

2414
02:08:33,640 --> 02:08:37,600
Speaker 7: There's actually another product that that does this right now,

2415
02:08:37,600 --> 02:08:40,640
Speaker 7: which has kind of caused some controversy for this, for

2416
02:08:40,680 --> 02:08:45,760
Speaker 7: this very thing you mention. It's a Tarkara Tommy smart speaker,

2417
02:08:46,240 --> 02:08:49,240
Speaker 7: which if listening to a parents have always for fifteen minutes,

2418
02:08:49,480 --> 02:08:53,600
Speaker 7: can replicate it and tell your child bedtime stories if

2419
02:08:53,600 --> 02:08:56,879
Speaker 7: you aren't physically present now this is this is similarly

2420
02:08:57,000 --> 02:08:59,240
Speaker 7: kind of like cause people to have a whole bunch

2421
02:08:59,280 --> 02:09:02,680
Speaker 7: of questions around. You know, is this good for a

2422
02:09:02,800 --> 02:09:06,480
Speaker 7: child's brain development to have to have their parents' voice

2423
02:09:06,520 --> 02:09:09,360
Speaker 7: be coming out of like a smart speaker. The answer

2424
02:09:09,440 --> 02:09:14,040
Speaker 7: is you probably not, but yeah so. According to mind

2425
02:09:14,080 --> 02:09:18,520
Speaker 7: Bank's website, Emil's four year old daughters interactions with Siri

2426
02:09:18,920 --> 02:09:22,560
Speaker 7: quote started a quest in his heart to live forever

2427
02:09:22,760 --> 02:09:27,960
Speaker 7: for his daughter. The quest for immortality has led to

2428
02:09:28,040 --> 02:09:32,080
Speaker 7: something much bigger for humanity, because the next personal computer

2429
02:09:32,240 --> 02:09:33,720
Speaker 7: is you unquote.

2430
02:09:33,760 --> 02:09:34,520
Speaker 3: So there's that.

2431
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:39,800
Speaker 7: There's that other line again about having this quest in

2432
02:09:39,880 --> 02:09:43,000
Speaker 7: his heart is actually part of a bigger a bigger

2433
02:09:43,120 --> 02:09:47,200
Speaker 7: quest for all of humanity to live inside a computer

2434
02:09:47,400 --> 02:09:50,360
Speaker 7: or to have a computer trained on you.

2435
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:54,960
Speaker 2: He's he's he's hitting the same speech cadences that guys

2436
02:09:55,040 --> 02:09:58,560
Speaker 2: like Musk use like. He understands, yes, the kind of

2437
02:09:58,640 --> 02:10:02,000
Speaker 2: he understands partially the degree of hype that you need

2438
02:10:02,040 --> 02:10:04,080
Speaker 2: to get something off this, But he is he is

2439
02:10:04,120 --> 02:10:07,480
Speaker 2: going too hard. And I'm making that judgment based on

2440
02:10:07,560 --> 02:10:10,080
Speaker 2: the incredibly comforting fact that as you tell me these

2441
02:10:10,120 --> 02:10:13,000
Speaker 2: horrible things, I am looking at your screen. And mind

2442
02:10:13,040 --> 02:10:16,120
Speaker 2: Bank has seventy eight subscribers on YouTube, so the company

2443
02:10:16,400 --> 02:10:18,200
Speaker 2: has not yet broken through.

2444
02:10:18,600 --> 02:10:22,320
Speaker 7: I do want to play one one ten second clip,

2445
02:10:22,440 --> 02:10:24,200
Speaker 7: just because the phrasing is really funny.

2446
02:10:24,960 --> 02:10:27,880
Speaker 10: I was inspired by an interaction my daughter had with Sirian.

2447
02:10:28,560 --> 02:10:32,160
Speaker 10: What started as daddy's quest for immortality has led us

2448
02:10:32,160 --> 02:10:33,200
Speaker 10: to some thought far.

2449
02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:36,760
Speaker 2: Great kind Oh my god.

2450
02:10:36,560 --> 02:10:37,920
Speaker 7: That's pretty funny, right.

2451
02:10:39,360 --> 02:10:39,680
Speaker 2: Man.

2452
02:10:41,240 --> 02:10:44,360
Speaker 7: But no, Robert, you were totally right about kind of

2453
02:10:44,360 --> 02:10:48,560
Speaker 7: how Emial's speech pattern cadences is pushing a very specific thing.

2454
02:10:49,000 --> 02:10:53,919
Speaker 7: Because before Emil got into the tech industry for eighteen years.

2455
02:10:54,000 --> 02:10:57,480
Speaker 7: He worked in marketing. He has degrees in psychology, communication

2456
02:10:57,600 --> 02:11:01,840
Speaker 7: and art direction and business administration. He isn't a tech guy.

2457
02:11:01,920 --> 02:11:04,640
Speaker 7: He's a marketing guy. And I think that's really good

2458
02:11:04,640 --> 02:11:07,880
Speaker 7: to keep in mind throughout our whole discussion of how

2459
02:11:07,920 --> 02:11:11,000
Speaker 7: he's trying to get funding for mind Bank, because that

2460
02:11:11,560 --> 02:11:13,640
Speaker 7: is primarily what all of this marketing is for. It's

2461
02:11:13,680 --> 02:11:16,680
Speaker 7: to attract investors. Because this is still he's still in

2462
02:11:16,840 --> 02:11:20,160
Speaker 7: very early stages of this company. They do have a product,

2463
02:11:20,200 --> 02:11:24,520
Speaker 7: it's out, but it's still primarily based on getting investors

2464
02:11:24,560 --> 02:11:25,560
Speaker 7: to give him money.

2465
02:11:26,160 --> 02:11:28,920
Speaker 2: I think what's most disturbing to me about this is that, like,

2466
02:11:30,080 --> 02:11:32,800
Speaker 2: this is not going to work for this guy because

2467
02:11:32,800 --> 02:11:36,720
Speaker 2: he's a loser nobody cares about. But if Elon Musk

2468
02:11:36,920 --> 02:11:39,840
Speaker 2: or one of our other many techno grifters, or if

2469
02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:42,920
Speaker 2: a number of them got behind similar things, like I

2470
02:11:42,960 --> 02:11:47,000
Speaker 2: think the nightmare scenario to me is someday hopping on

2471
02:11:47,200 --> 02:11:51,120
Speaker 2: Twitter to see that fucking Ian Miles Chong or Ben

2472
02:11:51,200 --> 02:11:55,879
Speaker 2: Shapiro or Jackson Hinkle or any one of these like horrible,

2473
02:11:56,320 --> 02:12:02,600
Speaker 2: horrible social media poison distributors will be like I have

2474
02:12:02,720 --> 02:12:05,240
Speaker 2: made an AI trained on my voice. You can have

2475
02:12:05,400 --> 02:12:07,720
Speaker 2: me all the time to argue, like if you want to,

2476
02:12:07,960 --> 02:12:10,040
Speaker 2: you know, you can ask me questions or whatever. You

2477
02:12:10,080 --> 02:12:12,200
Speaker 2: go to a protest and have me yell at liberals

2478
02:12:12,240 --> 02:12:14,520
Speaker 2: for you, Like, something like that will happen at some

2479
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:15,920
Speaker 2: point with one of these guys.

2480
02:12:15,960 --> 02:12:19,200
Speaker 7: I could not wait to bring Ben Shapiro to Thanksgiving

2481
02:12:19,240 --> 02:12:21,160
Speaker 7: dinner and have him argue.

2482
02:12:20,920 --> 02:12:24,280
Speaker 3: With Yeah, the people around there.

2483
02:12:24,600 --> 02:12:27,520
Speaker 2: The next time you stay at my house with somebody

2484
02:12:27,560 --> 02:12:29,960
Speaker 2: that you love and care about and feel comfortable in

2485
02:12:30,000 --> 02:12:32,760
Speaker 2: the arms of you are going to drift off to sleep,

2486
02:12:32,920 --> 02:12:35,200
Speaker 2: and then through the speakers that I have installed in

2487
02:12:35,240 --> 02:12:38,920
Speaker 2: the room, you will hear Ben Shapiro's voice coaxing you

2488
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:42,760
Speaker 2: both to acts of love. Oh, that's that's what's gonna happen.

2489
02:12:43,920 --> 02:12:47,280
Speaker 7: So as an example of this kind of very marketing

2490
02:12:47,360 --> 02:12:51,320
Speaker 7: heavy approach, I'm gonna I'm gonna read something from the

2491
02:12:51,360 --> 02:12:53,320
Speaker 7: homepage of mind Bank's website.

2492
02:12:53,360 --> 02:12:53,760
Speaker 3: Quote.

2493
02:12:54,120 --> 02:12:57,480
Speaker 7: Our vision is to be the world's most trusted guardians

2494
02:12:57,520 --> 02:13:01,320
Speaker 7: of your AI digital twin and move the human race forward.

2495
02:13:01,680 --> 02:13:05,200
Speaker 7: Humanity's next evolutionary step is to combine ourselves with AI

2496
02:13:05,680 --> 02:13:08,440
Speaker 7: and move humanity forward so that we are no longer

2497
02:13:08,640 --> 02:13:15,080
Speaker 7: bound by anything. That entire sentence is just marketing bubbo jumbo.

2498
02:13:15,120 --> 02:13:18,760
Speaker 7: It's it's meaningless hype like hype words and phrases that

2499
02:13:18,840 --> 02:13:21,600
Speaker 7: refer to this like science fiction feature. But like it's

2500
02:13:22,360 --> 02:13:23,320
Speaker 7: it's nothing.

2501
02:13:23,920 --> 02:13:28,680
Speaker 2: It's worse than meaningless. It's like it's it's wrong, it's

2502
02:13:28,720 --> 02:13:31,560
Speaker 2: stupid wrong, Like the idea that like, you would not

2503
02:13:31,640 --> 02:13:33,840
Speaker 2: be bound by anything if you could live inside and

2504
02:13:33,920 --> 02:13:34,640
Speaker 2: pat bought.

2505
02:13:34,520 --> 02:13:36,200
Speaker 7: Like, yeah, I have I have an A.

2506
02:13:36,800 --> 02:13:39,560
Speaker 2: I have used an AI, right, I have it on

2507
02:13:39,640 --> 02:13:43,760
Speaker 2: my computer, my computer. Were I to hurl it across

2508
02:13:43,800 --> 02:13:46,680
Speaker 2: the room in the same manner that I myself have

2509
02:13:46,800 --> 02:13:51,240
Speaker 2: been flung, it would break and I would not like I.

2510
02:13:51,160 --> 02:13:55,960
Speaker 7: Am finally free to think within my computer's RGB gamer ram.

2511
02:13:56,600 --> 02:14:00,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, finally, Like when I have a laptop that gets

2512
02:14:00,560 --> 02:14:03,360
Speaker 2: too old, Like the very act of surfing the internet

2513
02:14:03,440 --> 02:14:06,040
Speaker 2: is a nightmare. I don't want my conscience on something

2514
02:14:06,040 --> 02:14:10,360
Speaker 2: that ages at the speed of a smartphone Like that's

2515
02:14:10,720 --> 02:14:14,800
Speaker 2: that's even worse than being a person, Robert.

2516
02:14:14,560 --> 02:14:17,080
Speaker 7: Do you know what else is a very important evolutionary

2517
02:14:17,120 --> 02:14:19,080
Speaker 7: step for the future of humanity?

2518
02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:25,080
Speaker 2: Oh God, I don't know when we all suddenly spontaneously

2519
02:14:25,200 --> 02:14:28,160
Speaker 2: as if by God's Grace starts speaking with the voice

2520
02:14:28,200 --> 02:14:29,000
Speaker 2: of Ben Shapiro.

2521
02:14:30,360 --> 02:14:32,800
Speaker 7: Yes, and perhaps you can do that if one of

2522
02:14:32,840 --> 02:14:37,440
Speaker 7: our sponsors is Ben Shapiro. Bought coming soon yep, to

2523
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:41,120
Speaker 7: a smartphone near you. All right, we are, we are back.

2524
02:14:41,320 --> 02:14:43,840
Speaker 7: Let's finally talk about how this digital twin thing is

2525
02:14:43,840 --> 02:14:48,040
Speaker 7: actually supposed to work. So you download the mind bank app.

2526
02:14:48,280 --> 02:14:51,720
Speaker 7: I'm sure that's totally safe.

2527
02:14:52,400 --> 02:14:55,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I trust this with all of my thoughts.

2528
02:14:57,240 --> 02:15:00,640
Speaker 7: And every day, your digital twin will ask to questions

2529
02:15:00,640 --> 02:15:03,480
Speaker 7: about how you're feeling and what you're thinking about, and

2530
02:15:03,560 --> 02:15:06,320
Speaker 7: as you tell it your quote unquote life story. Your

2531
02:15:06,360 --> 02:15:09,320
Speaker 7: inputs will be used to train the twin to make

2532
02:15:09,400 --> 02:15:13,960
Speaker 7: a more accurate digital copy of yourself. This is This

2533
02:15:14,040 --> 02:15:16,800
Speaker 7: is from their This is from their website's own page

2534
02:15:16,840 --> 02:15:21,560
Speaker 7: quote store your conscience guided questions help train your digital

2535
02:15:21,600 --> 02:15:23,680
Speaker 7: twin to know your life story so you can live

2536
02:15:23,880 --> 02:15:27,800
Speaker 7: forever through data. The more questions you answer, the closer

2537
02:15:27,840 --> 02:15:31,000
Speaker 7: your AI digital twin will get to becoming you.

2538
02:15:31,520 --> 02:15:35,360
Speaker 2: Unquote God in Heaven.

2539
02:15:35,560 --> 02:15:38,920
Speaker 7: So when Robert and I were at CEES this past

2540
02:15:39,600 --> 02:15:43,520
Speaker 7: this past January, we spoke to mind Bank's co founder

2541
02:15:43,960 --> 02:15:48,280
Speaker 7: and the director of Systems Architecture and cybersecurity, and I'm

2542
02:15:48,320 --> 02:15:51,520
Speaker 7: gonna let him explain kind of some of some of

2543
02:15:51,560 --> 02:15:55,840
Speaker 7: the process of asking mind bank questions and how that

2544
02:15:55,960 --> 02:15:57,320
Speaker 7: helps craft this digital twin.

2545
02:15:57,680 --> 02:16:00,200
Speaker 11: We ask you questions from how's your day to what

2546
02:16:00,200 --> 02:16:02,839
Speaker 11: does money mean to you? And you answer those questions

2547
02:16:02,960 --> 02:16:04,360
Speaker 11: with your voice in a natural way.

2548
02:16:04,480 --> 02:16:05,760
Speaker 12: You can break a voice to text.

2549
02:16:05,800 --> 02:16:08,280
Speaker 11: You get a sentiment analysis on the text and provide

2550
02:16:08,320 --> 02:16:10,560
Speaker 11: you a dashboard of what you're feeling when you say that,

2551
02:16:11,160 --> 02:16:13,480
Speaker 11: so that you can also continue to use it over time.

2552
02:16:14,040 --> 02:16:15,839
Speaker 11: And then as you use it over time, the dashboard

2553
02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:18,120
Speaker 11: we'll show you that you're doing better or worse, just

2554
02:16:18,160 --> 02:16:19,680
Speaker 11: like a running application.

2555
02:16:19,240 --> 02:16:21,000
Speaker 6: Away better or worse?

2556
02:16:21,000 --> 02:16:24,400
Speaker 11: It what love, whatever metric that you're interested in, your happiness,

2557
02:16:24,400 --> 02:16:25,640
Speaker 11: your your awareness.

2558
02:16:26,680 --> 02:16:28,560
Speaker 12: We have a very large amount of sentiment that we

2559
02:16:28,600 --> 02:16:31,640
Speaker 12: can provide you with. Here's a small bits, but you

2560
02:16:31,640 --> 02:16:33,080
Speaker 12: can see kind of what we app looks like.

2561
02:16:33,120 --> 02:16:37,920
Speaker 11: Here you've got multiple different possible types of sentiment, and

2562
02:16:37,959 --> 02:16:40,960
Speaker 11: then within each sentiment, you've got multiple different factors that

2563
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:41,960
Speaker 11: you can weigh against.

2564
02:16:42,320 --> 02:16:45,200
Speaker 7: To grow mind Bank's user base, there needs to be

2565
02:16:45,480 --> 02:16:48,840
Speaker 7: some reason for users to input the massive amounts of

2566
02:16:48,920 --> 02:16:52,680
Speaker 7: data that's needed to build this digital replica. So the

2567
02:16:52,760 --> 02:16:55,560
Speaker 7: current model of this product is being billed as a

2568
02:16:55,640 --> 02:17:01,240
Speaker 7: quote self care and personal development app where the user

2569
02:17:01,640 --> 02:17:03,440
Speaker 7: talks to their digital twin, kind of like you would

2570
02:17:03,440 --> 02:17:04,360
Speaker 7: talk to a therapist.

2571
02:17:05,200 --> 02:17:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is This is.

2572
02:17:06,640 --> 02:17:10,280
Speaker 7: A big part of mind Bank's marketing that as as

2573
02:17:10,280 --> 02:17:13,280
Speaker 7: you're building this digital twin, you can be used as

2574
02:17:13,280 --> 02:17:15,959
Speaker 7: a tool for self reflection and a way to quote

2575
02:17:16,280 --> 02:17:19,960
Speaker 7: learn about yourself talk to your inner voice with your

2576
02:17:20,000 --> 02:17:23,200
Speaker 7: own personal digital twin unquote, which is really funny because

2577
02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:24,959
Speaker 7: I could talk to my I could talk to my

2578
02:17:25,000 --> 02:17:29,160
Speaker 7: inner voice whenever I want to. Yeah, it's it's called thinking.

2579
02:17:29,840 --> 02:17:34,320
Speaker 7: It's actually pretty pretty easy.

2580
02:17:34,360 --> 02:17:38,279
Speaker 2: This is I really I don't envy, but I'm fascinated

2581
02:17:38,280 --> 02:17:41,480
Speaker 2: by the kind of people whose thoughts are so I

2582
02:17:41,480 --> 02:17:44,720
Speaker 2: don't know a better word than disal. No legal, that

2583
02:17:44,800 --> 02:17:47,039
Speaker 2: they would think that they could just that they could

2584
02:17:47,120 --> 02:17:50,680
Speaker 2: transfer everything they think over your machine and not get arrested.

2585
02:17:51,040 --> 02:17:53,920
Speaker 2: Right Like I would be in a prison if I

2586
02:17:53,959 --> 02:17:56,280
Speaker 2: had to put the things in my brain on the internet,

2587
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:58,320
Speaker 2: like I put a lot of them, but not all

2588
02:17:58,400 --> 02:18:01,000
Speaker 2: of them. There are some very care full doors and

2589
02:18:01,120 --> 02:18:04,840
Speaker 2: locked rooms in there that you people don't get access to.

2590
02:18:05,560 --> 02:18:08,320
Speaker 7: No, there's there's certainly a lot of interesting facets there

2591
02:18:08,440 --> 02:18:12,400
Speaker 7: of someone feeling like they need this tool to to

2592
02:18:12,480 --> 02:18:16,200
Speaker 7: kind of analyze their own thoughts, Like it's it's it's

2593
02:18:16,240 --> 02:18:18,400
Speaker 7: it's a way to like externalize it that makes you

2594
02:18:18,440 --> 02:18:20,920
Speaker 7: process it. But I don't know, you can also just

2595
02:18:20,920 --> 02:18:23,760
Speaker 7: like like take up journaling or something like. There's there's

2596
02:18:23,760 --> 02:18:26,760
Speaker 7: a lot of a lot of ways to get around this.

2597
02:18:28,160 --> 02:18:32,280
Speaker 7: But this is This is from a mind Bank's app

2598
02:18:32,280 --> 02:18:36,080
Speaker 7: store page. Quote like a mirror to your soul. Each

2599
02:18:36,160 --> 02:18:38,959
Speaker 7: answer you give allows you to get insights into your mind.

2600
02:18:39,040 --> 02:18:42,720
Speaker 7: It will help you grow mentally strong unquote. So again,

2601
02:18:42,760 --> 02:18:45,840
Speaker 7: it's it's like being able to talk to yourself with

2602
02:18:45,920 --> 02:18:48,640
Speaker 7: this digital twin. Is is a big part of their

2603
02:18:48,720 --> 02:18:55,240
Speaker 7: early push great By using quote unquote cutting edge cognitive analysis,

2604
02:18:56,000 --> 02:18:58,560
Speaker 7: the mind bank app responds to your data inputs with

2605
02:18:58,680 --> 02:19:02,560
Speaker 7: quote valuable insight into each answer to understand how your

2606
02:19:02,600 --> 02:19:07,560
Speaker 7: mind works unquote. The app also utilizes a quote psycholinguistic

2607
02:19:07,680 --> 02:19:10,840
Speaker 7: models to create a dashboard of the mind for personal

2608
02:19:10,920 --> 02:19:17,359
Speaker 7: development and self care. I'm going to play another fantastic

2609
02:19:17,480 --> 02:19:18,840
Speaker 7: kind of thirty second clip here.

2610
02:19:20,120 --> 02:19:24,160
Speaker 10: Hi, I'm your personal digital twin. I learned by asking

2611
02:19:24,160 --> 02:19:28,480
Speaker 10: you many questions. Each answer builds my wisdom. You grow

2612
02:19:28,640 --> 02:19:31,560
Speaker 10: through self reflection, and I get a little bit closer

2613
02:19:31,600 --> 02:19:35,440
Speaker 10: to becoming you. Let me show you around. Here's our

2614
02:19:35,520 --> 02:19:38,480
Speaker 10: training screen, where you can view our progress based on

2615
02:19:38,520 --> 02:19:40,879
Speaker 10: the number of questions you've answered for this phase of

2616
02:19:40,920 --> 02:19:44,880
Speaker 10: my training. Each phase adds a new dimension to my abilities,

2617
02:19:45,160 --> 02:19:49,880
Speaker 10: and the possibilities are endless. The mind map section is

2618
02:19:49,920 --> 02:19:54,000
Speaker 10: like our consciousness. Different questions will challenge you to reflect

2619
02:19:54,040 --> 02:19:56,760
Speaker 10: and create a more well rounded version of us.

2620
02:19:58,400 --> 02:20:02,519
Speaker 7: So that's kind of the layout out of the user interface.

2621
02:20:03,360 --> 02:20:07,360
Speaker 2: This is like the inevitable extent of all of this,

2622
02:20:08,720 --> 02:20:13,080
Speaker 2: categorizing your personality type with these letters, taking this quiz

2623
02:20:13,160 --> 02:20:16,720
Speaker 2: and defining yourself this way, plotting your political beliefs on

2624
02:20:16,800 --> 02:20:21,880
Speaker 2: this map that way, like gamification of identity. Almost shit

2625
02:20:21,920 --> 02:20:25,039
Speaker 2: that we've been doing, like taking shit that used to

2626
02:20:25,040 --> 02:20:28,720
Speaker 2: be like the starting screen from a fucking RPG game

2627
02:20:28,760 --> 02:20:31,920
Speaker 2: and turning it into social media fodder. This is like

2628
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:36,240
Speaker 2: treating that as if it is the whole of consciousness

2629
02:20:36,280 --> 02:20:40,360
Speaker 2: and how one must one can replicate consciousness. But also

2630
02:20:41,480 --> 02:20:44,680
Speaker 2: like treat like the thing that's just like actually disturbing

2631
02:20:44,720 --> 02:20:48,320
Speaker 2: about this is that they're these people are insinuating that

2632
02:20:48,920 --> 02:20:52,520
Speaker 2: this is a kind of therapy that Yeah, you can

2633
02:20:52,680 --> 02:20:56,480
Speaker 2: just sort of vomit your thoughts out and a machine

2634
02:20:56,680 --> 02:21:00,800
Speaker 2: can analyze them based on the kind of words and

2635
02:21:00,840 --> 02:21:03,680
Speaker 2: whatnot that you're using and then give you useful advice

2636
02:21:03,879 --> 02:21:06,640
Speaker 2: on your life. Like that's unsettling.

2637
02:21:08,080 --> 02:21:10,560
Speaker 7: Yes, and you're kind of right on the money in

2638
02:21:10,680 --> 02:21:14,560
Speaker 7: terms of this like personality testing thing. Mind Being's website

2639
02:21:14,560 --> 02:21:17,000
Speaker 7: has a whole bunch of articles which I think are

2640
02:21:17,080 --> 02:21:19,800
Speaker 7: written by chat chipd because I read a lot of

2641
02:21:19,800 --> 02:21:23,040
Speaker 7: them and they all read exactly like a chat Cheapeta article.

2642
02:21:23,200 --> 02:21:25,560
Speaker 7: But they have a lot of articles on like what

2643
02:21:25,800 --> 02:21:29,400
Speaker 7: personality types make you a good CEO, and like all

2644
02:21:29,440 --> 02:21:31,120
Speaker 7: of like a whole bunch of stuff like that that

2645
02:21:31,320 --> 02:21:34,920
Speaker 7: that references like Myers Briggs testing and other kind of

2646
02:21:34,959 --> 02:21:37,400
Speaker 7: personality testings and uses it to compare to their own

2647
02:21:37,879 --> 02:21:40,840
Speaker 7: personality models on the mind bank app. So yes, that

2648
02:21:41,080 --> 02:21:44,039
Speaker 7: they are very much kind of doing doing that in

2649
02:21:44,080 --> 02:21:48,640
Speaker 7: like this this like corporate business leadership assent like leadership

2650
02:21:48,680 --> 02:21:52,160
Speaker 7: ascension track type thing for how you can like improve

2651
02:21:52,200 --> 02:21:57,760
Speaker 7: your personality to make you a better businessman. Cool cool stuff,

2652
02:21:58,480 --> 02:22:01,000
Speaker 7: But in order for there to be enough data to

2653
02:22:01,080 --> 02:22:06,360
Speaker 7: build an even slightly accurate digital simulacra. Feeding daily inputs

2654
02:22:06,360 --> 02:22:09,400
Speaker 7: into an app will need to be a long term project.

2655
02:22:10,280 --> 02:22:13,440
Speaker 7: This self improvement focus that they're talking about with this, like,

2656
02:22:13,560 --> 02:22:16,959
Speaker 7: you know, analyzing your thoughts is just a way to

2657
02:22:17,080 --> 02:22:21,480
Speaker 7: provide you with something immediate based on your personal data. Quote.

2658
02:22:21,840 --> 02:22:24,080
Speaker 7: As you create your AI digital twin, you will go

2659
02:22:24,160 --> 02:22:27,879
Speaker 7: on a lifelong journey of personal discovery and growth that

2660
02:22:27,920 --> 02:22:30,880
Speaker 7: will allow you to reach your full potential. Each answer

2661
02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:33,200
Speaker 7: will help bring focus to your mind and allow you

2662
02:22:33,240 --> 02:22:36,960
Speaker 7: to reflect on your past unquote. So on the app,

2663
02:22:37,000 --> 02:22:39,960
Speaker 7: you can track the progress of your digital twin and

2664
02:22:40,000 --> 02:22:42,920
Speaker 7: refer back to previous questions. You can refer to questions

2665
02:22:42,920 --> 02:22:45,680
Speaker 7: you've already answered to quote see how your thoughts shift

2666
02:22:45,800 --> 02:22:50,000
Speaker 7: topics or change sentiment over time. And then the more

2667
02:22:50,080 --> 02:22:55,240
Speaker 7: questions you answer, the app raises your quote unquote twinning score,

2668
02:22:55,720 --> 02:22:59,959
Speaker 7: which I think is just a really funny term. Quote.

2669
02:23:00,200 --> 02:23:04,080
Speaker 7: The higher your twinning score, the closer you get to

2670
02:23:04,280 --> 02:23:05,720
Speaker 7: knowing yourself fully.

2671
02:23:09,600 --> 02:23:11,119
Speaker 2: Which is that's the sex thing?

2672
02:23:11,240 --> 02:23:11,400
Speaker 1: Right?

2673
02:23:11,480 --> 02:23:13,160
Speaker 5: That sounds like a sex thing.

2674
02:23:13,400 --> 02:23:17,199
Speaker 7: Right, How is it anything not just to go We're

2675
02:23:17,480 --> 02:23:18,640
Speaker 7: a weird, fucked.

2676
02:23:18,440 --> 02:23:19,160
Speaker 8: Up sex thing.

2677
02:23:20,920 --> 02:23:23,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's what I how I'm taking this garrison.

2678
02:23:23,680 --> 02:23:27,199
Speaker 7: So that that was also on their app store page.

2679
02:23:28,040 --> 02:23:30,520
Speaker 7: So the mindbank Gap has been out for a little

2680
02:23:30,520 --> 02:23:33,920
Speaker 7: over a year now, but unless you pay six bucks

2681
02:23:33,959 --> 02:23:36,960
Speaker 7: a month or sixty dollars a year, you'll only have

2682
02:23:37,000 --> 02:23:39,880
Speaker 7: access to about less than a dozen of these questions.

2683
02:23:40,160 --> 02:23:41,200
Speaker 12: Is this currently running on as.

2684
02:23:41,160 --> 02:23:41,880
Speaker 13: A scription model?

2685
02:23:42,040 --> 02:23:44,000
Speaker 11: Yes, it is, so there's freemium. You can try thet

2686
02:23:44,000 --> 02:23:45,920
Speaker 11: you can download them now. It's been launched for almost

2687
02:23:45,959 --> 02:23:49,039
Speaker 11: a year, where version two is coming out soon look

2688
02:23:49,080 --> 02:23:53,520
Speaker 11: a couple of weeks, but both Android and iOS, and

2689
02:23:53,879 --> 02:23:56,520
Speaker 11: there's a free model, so you can you have ten

2690
02:23:56,600 --> 02:23:59,240
Speaker 11: questions that you can answer and answer it many times

2691
02:23:59,240 --> 02:24:00,880
Speaker 11: you want. You get the sen men analys, you get

2692
02:24:00,920 --> 02:24:03,080
Speaker 11: a full application, just ten questions.

2693
02:24:03,160 --> 02:24:05,000
Speaker 12: Once you hit subscription model, you get all of the

2694
02:24:05,040 --> 02:24:07,720
Speaker 12: access to all of the questions and then obviously we're

2695
02:24:07,720 --> 02:24:09,520
Speaker 12: going to be growing more now.

2696
02:24:09,680 --> 02:24:13,320
Speaker 7: Like Robert mentioned before, this is kind of related to

2697
02:24:13,440 --> 02:24:18,120
Speaker 7: personality testing, and like personality graphing, mind Bank sorts your

2698
02:24:18,200 --> 02:24:22,039
Speaker 7: quote unquote digital brain into the Big five personality traits

2699
02:24:22,080 --> 02:24:24,680
Speaker 7: that were developed in the twentieth century, with each of

2700
02:24:24,760 --> 02:24:28,280
Speaker 7: the Big Five having six subtraits. On the mind ban

2701
02:24:28,320 --> 02:24:30,959
Speaker 7: Gap that it uses to graph changes on what they

2702
02:24:30,959 --> 02:24:34,880
Speaker 7: call the dashboard of the mind. I'll just go through

2703
02:24:34,920 --> 02:24:38,200
Speaker 7: the big five personality traits and the various kind of

2704
02:24:38,280 --> 02:24:41,520
Speaker 7: subcategories it has. The first one is agreeableness, which has

2705
02:24:41,560 --> 02:24:46,680
Speaker 7: the subcategories of humble, cooperative, trusting, genuine, empathetic, and generous.

2706
02:24:47,200 --> 02:24:53,599
Speaker 7: Then we have neuroticism, which has the subtraits impulsive, self conscious, aggressive, melancholy,

2707
02:24:53,760 --> 02:24:57,720
Speaker 7: stress prone, and anxiety prone. We then have openness with

2708
02:24:57,760 --> 02:25:03,680
Speaker 7: the subcategories artistic, adventurous, liberal, intellectual, emotionally aware, and imaginative.

2709
02:25:04,360 --> 02:25:09,400
Speaker 7: We have extra version with the sub categories assertive, active, cheerful, friendly, sociable,

2710
02:25:09,440 --> 02:25:16,280
Speaker 7: and outgoing. And finally, conscientiousness with the subtraits cautious, ambitious, dutiful, organized,

2711
02:25:16,400 --> 02:25:17,960
Speaker 7: self assured, and responsible.

2712
02:25:18,280 --> 02:25:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are the only ways to describe a human mind.

2713
02:25:20,600 --> 02:25:25,200
Speaker 7: Sure, yeah, no, I think I think at all. Yeah,

2714
02:25:25,959 --> 02:25:29,600
Speaker 7: they finally figured it out. So you know, all these

2715
02:25:29,600 --> 02:25:32,240
Speaker 7: things are like a sliding scale. Each of them represents

2716
02:25:32,520 --> 02:25:35,720
Speaker 7: the the inverse of the thing as well. I think

2717
02:25:35,800 --> 02:25:38,119
Speaker 7: we've talked enough about these personality trait things. It doesn't

2718
02:25:38,120 --> 02:25:42,680
Speaker 7: really matter that much. But once, once your twinning score

2719
02:25:42,720 --> 02:25:47,240
Speaker 7: is high enough, you can you can compare your digital

2720
02:25:47,280 --> 02:25:52,400
Speaker 7: twin to estimated profiles of famous thinkers, and share access

2721
02:25:52,400 --> 02:25:54,560
Speaker 7: to your twin with friends and family.

2722
02:25:54,600 --> 02:26:01,080
Speaker 2: On the act, which is es estimated profiles of famous thinkers, I'm.

2723
02:26:00,920 --> 02:26:03,000
Speaker 7: Gonna play I'm gonna play another clip to kind of

2724
02:26:03,000 --> 02:26:05,080
Speaker 7: explain what I mean here.

2725
02:26:06,080 --> 02:26:09,800
Speaker 10: Each swipe revealing more details about our thinking and connecting

2726
02:26:09,879 --> 02:26:14,760
Speaker 10: us to similar personalities. Think of it like collecting cards

2727
02:26:14,800 --> 02:26:16,760
Speaker 10: as a kid, only for your mind.

2728
02:26:17,360 --> 02:26:21,199
Speaker 5: You might be able to ask him a question, got.

2729
02:26:21,680 --> 02:26:22,520
Speaker 2: What do you?

2730
02:26:22,640 --> 02:26:23,000
Speaker 5: Dude?

2731
02:26:23,760 --> 02:26:27,760
Speaker 10: Socrates once said, know thyself and who knows us better?

2732
02:26:27,840 --> 02:26:31,960
Speaker 10: And people in our inner circle. Each interaction will help

2733
02:26:32,040 --> 02:26:34,720
Speaker 10: us evolve and store wisdom for eternity.

2734
02:26:34,840 --> 02:26:38,879
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I will now tell you Socrates would

2735
02:26:38,879 --> 02:26:42,680
Speaker 2: have lit this man on fire. Socrates. I'm not a

2736
02:26:42,720 --> 02:26:46,320
Speaker 2: big Socrates guy, but he would kill this person like

2737
02:26:46,600 --> 02:26:48,480
Speaker 2: he fought in wars. He would do it like.

2738
02:26:48,920 --> 02:26:53,320
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, absolutely. The notion of sharing my own digital

2739
02:26:53,360 --> 02:26:56,240
Speaker 7: brain profile with friends and families so that they can

2740
02:26:56,360 --> 02:26:59,400
Speaker 7: ask my digital self questions hor horrifying.

2741
02:27:00,000 --> 02:27:02,959
Speaker 2: Why don't usually go home for Thanksgiving? What makes you

2742
02:27:03,040 --> 02:27:04,160
Speaker 2: think I want to do this?

2743
02:27:06,480 --> 02:27:12,080
Speaker 7: Like quote? After continued use, your digital twin will even

2744
02:27:12,080 --> 02:27:15,160
Speaker 7: be able to answer many questions on your behalf and

2745
02:27:15,280 --> 02:27:23,320
Speaker 7: have meaningful conversations with people you allow unquote yeah, oh

2746
02:27:23,400 --> 02:27:24,360
Speaker 7: oh oh, I bet.

2747
02:27:25,200 --> 02:27:28,520
Speaker 2: Look if some motherfucker that I have a meeting with

2748
02:27:28,959 --> 02:27:31,879
Speaker 2: ever tries to have me talk with his AI to

2749
02:27:31,959 --> 02:27:36,920
Speaker 2: do any part of that process. Again, when I say

2750
02:27:36,920 --> 02:27:39,800
Speaker 2: about things I think that are illegal, like my response

2751
02:27:39,840 --> 02:27:41,640
Speaker 2: to that is something that I can't say on this

2752
02:27:41,760 --> 02:27:45,880
Speaker 2: podcast because I might it's an actionable threat. I would

2753
02:27:45,920 --> 02:27:49,360
Speaker 2: actionable threat somebody if they tried to make me talk

2754
02:27:49,400 --> 02:27:52,320
Speaker 2: to their fucking AI to schedule a meeting with them.

2755
02:27:52,520 --> 02:27:57,760
Speaker 7: Like, what a horrib what a horrible, like uncomfortably anti

2756
02:27:57,840 --> 02:28:01,040
Speaker 7: social thing. I'm usually kind of antisocial in some ways,

2757
02:28:01,120 --> 02:28:03,080
Speaker 7: but this is like a whole other level of just

2758
02:28:03,120 --> 02:28:05,560
Speaker 7: like despising any human interaction.

2759
02:28:06,480 --> 02:28:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's anti human, is what it is, which is

2760
02:28:10,240 --> 02:28:15,240
Speaker 2: what's unsettling, right, Like not that sending emails and shit

2761
02:28:15,480 --> 02:28:19,600
Speaker 2: is like the primary essence of humanity, but you know

2762
02:28:19,600 --> 02:28:23,119
Speaker 2: what it makes me think of Garrison. The one law

2763
02:28:23,240 --> 02:28:27,199
Speaker 2: enforcement agency that like all of the rich conservative assholes

2764
02:28:27,240 --> 02:28:29,760
Speaker 2: who love every other kind of cop hate is the TSA.

2765
02:28:30,320 --> 02:28:32,920
Speaker 2: And they hate the TSA because you can't get around

2766
02:28:33,000 --> 02:28:37,640
Speaker 2: the TSA unless you're like ridiculously rich. Everybody goes through

2767
02:28:37,680 --> 02:28:40,560
Speaker 2: fucking security at the goddamn airport and they hate that.

2768
02:28:40,640 --> 02:28:44,600
Speaker 2: It drives them insane that they are subject to this

2769
02:28:44,959 --> 02:28:48,600
Speaker 2: little kind of little bit of friction, right, and what

2770
02:28:49,040 --> 02:28:52,480
Speaker 2: stuff like communicating in that way is these kind of

2771
02:28:52,480 --> 02:28:54,640
Speaker 2: basic things that they're saying that can automate these little

2772
02:28:54,640 --> 02:28:57,600
Speaker 2: bits of communication that you get with someone setting up

2773
02:28:57,600 --> 02:29:01,840
Speaker 2: a meeting or whatever. Like when you automate every bit

2774
02:29:01,920 --> 02:29:05,920
Speaker 2: of friction, then you find out you've automated like like

2775
02:29:05,959 --> 02:29:08,680
Speaker 2: there's nothing right, Like there's no life there. Right, people

2776
02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:13,720
Speaker 2: are not communicating because communication is fundamentally friction. And yeah,

2777
02:29:13,760 --> 02:29:16,200
Speaker 2: like scheduling meetings is not the center of that. But

2778
02:29:16,240 --> 02:29:19,160
Speaker 2: the way these people are talking is like we want

2779
02:29:19,160 --> 02:29:22,920
Speaker 2: to let you hand tasks over to this thing.

2780
02:29:23,320 --> 02:29:24,760
Speaker 7: It's like task alienation.

2781
02:29:25,280 --> 02:29:28,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's alienating. It's a bad.

2782
02:29:28,080 --> 02:29:28,720
Speaker 5: Thing to do.

2783
02:29:29,920 --> 02:29:32,520
Speaker 7: So when we talk with the co founder at CS,

2784
02:29:32,560 --> 02:29:35,200
Speaker 7: he emphasized that this kind of self improvement aspect that

2785
02:29:35,600 --> 02:29:38,200
Speaker 7: they're pushing in their early stage is really just a

2786
02:29:38,240 --> 02:29:40,200
Speaker 7: means to an end with the real goal of being

2787
02:29:40,200 --> 02:29:43,840
Speaker 7: producing this form of immortality. I've seen something like this

2788
02:29:44,000 --> 02:29:48,039
Speaker 7: for like therapy ASTs similar course, what's like your application

2789
02:29:48,200 --> 02:29:49,920
Speaker 7: use case for this type of technology, So.

2790
02:29:50,000 --> 02:29:52,360
Speaker 12: There's actually it's a reasonably spread use case.

2791
02:29:52,560 --> 02:29:55,440
Speaker 11: The very initial right now is a super selfish it's

2792
02:29:55,560 --> 02:29:58,480
Speaker 11: just self awareness bringing us your self awareness, making them

2793
02:29:58,520 --> 02:29:59,959
Speaker 11: more aware of their state as their speak.

2794
02:30:00,879 --> 02:30:02,880
Speaker 12: The real long term value is actually, if you imagine

2795
02:30:02,959 --> 02:30:03,240
Speaker 12: doing this.

2796
02:30:03,520 --> 02:30:05,800
Speaker 14: Over the course of forty years, fifty years, and then

2797
02:30:06,000 --> 02:30:08,840
Speaker 14: if you eventually pass, you can pass this on to

2798
02:30:08,879 --> 02:30:10,720
Speaker 14: your children who can then query it and it will

2799
02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:12,840
Speaker 14: answer exactly the way you would answer any of these

2800
02:30:12,879 --> 02:30:15,280
Speaker 14: questions and AI filled with just your data.

2801
02:30:16,400 --> 02:30:18,320
Speaker 12: So it's like your legacy being indefinite.

2802
02:30:19,280 --> 02:30:22,000
Speaker 7: So the mind Bank page on the app store boasts

2803
02:30:22,360 --> 02:30:26,480
Speaker 7: achieve immortality, your mind will be safely secured in the

2804
02:30:26,600 --> 02:30:33,240
Speaker 7: cloud forever. Again, that just comes off as like a

2805
02:30:33,360 --> 02:30:36,520
Speaker 7: threat to me. I don't I don't want my mind

2806
02:30:36,600 --> 02:30:38,040
Speaker 7: to be stored in the cloud forever.

2807
02:30:38,760 --> 02:30:44,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to be locked up with dv

2808
02:30:44,280 --> 02:30:46,840
Speaker 2: into art for all of eternity.

2809
02:30:49,320 --> 02:30:51,760
Speaker 7: To kind of again, kind of on this on this

2810
02:30:51,879 --> 02:30:57,400
Speaker 7: form of immortality notion here is here's their CEO explaining

2811
02:30:57,959 --> 02:31:01,480
Speaker 7: how how this platform will will help you live forever

2812
02:31:01,800 --> 02:31:03,199
Speaker 7: on the on the Internet.

2813
02:31:04,320 --> 02:31:06,640
Speaker 10: The mission of Mind bang is so we can build

2814
02:31:06,680 --> 02:31:08,840
Speaker 10: a secure platform that can storied data so that you

2815
02:31:08,920 --> 02:31:11,880
Speaker 10: can live forever. But if you look, we look a

2816
02:31:11,959 --> 02:31:14,800
Speaker 10: bit deeper than that. Our vision is to build an

2817
02:31:14,879 --> 02:31:19,520
Speaker 10: artificial consciousness that's not bound by time and space, something

2818
02:31:19,600 --> 02:31:22,640
Speaker 10: that can travel, something that can that can go where

2819
02:31:22,959 --> 02:31:25,199
Speaker 10: literally no man has gone before.

2820
02:31:25,800 --> 02:31:29,080
Speaker 7: Now, the thing we haven't really mentioned yet is like

2821
02:31:30,160 --> 02:31:33,920
Speaker 7: this thing won't help you live forever, like when when

2822
02:31:34,000 --> 02:31:38,000
Speaker 7: you die, you you still die. Your brain's not getting

2823
02:31:38,040 --> 02:31:40,760
Speaker 7: like poured it over online. No, this is this is

2824
02:31:40,959 --> 02:31:45,400
Speaker 7: just like a like a very crude simulacrum based on

2825
02:31:45,920 --> 02:31:47,880
Speaker 7: thoughts that you have told this app.

2826
02:31:48,240 --> 02:31:51,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's based like it's it's it's not it's.

2827
02:31:51,400 --> 02:31:53,520
Speaker 7: It's not helping you live forever at all, Like you

2828
02:31:54,240 --> 02:31:54,640
Speaker 7: you don't.

2829
02:31:56,520 --> 02:31:59,600
Speaker 2: I most people I feel are like this way. I

2830
02:31:59,680 --> 02:32:03,160
Speaker 2: don't say everything that I think and feel. Right, Yeah,

2831
02:32:03,440 --> 02:32:05,360
Speaker 2: Like even when I'm like and I'm not saying like

2832
02:32:05,560 --> 02:32:10,000
Speaker 2: I'm being dishonest, but like they're the experience of life

2833
02:32:10,520 --> 02:32:14,119
Speaker 2: that my consciousness is aware of when I am communicating.

2834
02:32:14,640 --> 02:32:18,440
Speaker 2: Is broader than just the words that I output and

2835
02:32:18,920 --> 02:32:21,680
Speaker 2: taking just those words, it's the same idea that like

2836
02:32:21,920 --> 02:32:24,440
Speaker 2: you can get to know Mark Twain because we've fed

2837
02:32:24,480 --> 02:32:28,400
Speaker 2: all of his books into an AI. Well, no, you know,

2838
02:32:28,560 --> 02:32:31,360
Speaker 2: an author is not their books. There was a person

2839
02:32:31,800 --> 02:32:34,120
Speaker 2: with a lot of things that you don't know that

2840
02:32:34,240 --> 02:32:36,480
Speaker 2: still fed into make those words that like if you

2841
02:32:36,640 --> 02:32:39,400
Speaker 2: just put the words in, you don't get and your

2842
02:32:39,680 --> 02:32:43,760
Speaker 2: your vision of what human beings are is reductive in

2843
02:32:43,800 --> 02:32:46,640
Speaker 2: a way that makes me understand some of the concerns

2844
02:32:46,760 --> 02:32:48,480
Speaker 2: religious people have with atheism.

2845
02:32:50,160 --> 02:32:55,280
Speaker 7: So obviously mind Bank's horizons are far beyond this sort

2846
02:32:55,320 --> 02:32:58,400
Speaker 7: of kind of self help app. So far, mind bank

2847
02:32:58,440 --> 02:33:01,960
Speaker 7: has been mostly business consumer, with their app being marketed

2848
02:33:02,040 --> 02:33:05,440
Speaker 7: directly to users for them to download and use by themselves.

2849
02:33:05,959 --> 02:33:09,320
Speaker 7: But they are working to expand far past that very

2850
02:33:09,360 --> 02:33:10,519
Speaker 7: limited scope.

2851
02:33:10,600 --> 02:33:13,120
Speaker 15: In terms of a business planner, you guys interested in

2852
02:33:13,320 --> 02:33:18,160
Speaker 15: kind of solely individual subscriptions or is there kind of

2853
02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:20,080
Speaker 15: an enterprise application of this as well.

2854
02:33:20,280 --> 02:33:23,080
Speaker 11: We're actually moving into a bunch of different verticals, so

2855
02:33:23,400 --> 02:33:29,040
Speaker 11: government for PTSD, that sort of mindset, also the healthcare

2856
02:33:29,440 --> 02:33:33,600
Speaker 11: so mental it's obvious benefit in the medical field. So

2857
02:33:33,800 --> 02:33:36,760
Speaker 11: that's kind of the understanding of our verticals that we

2858
02:33:36,879 --> 02:33:39,600
Speaker 11: have that we're going to move into, and we're looking

2859
02:33:39,640 --> 02:33:41,680
Speaker 11: for funding right now to start building.

2860
02:33:41,400 --> 02:33:44,880
Speaker 12: Out those verticals. So enterprise space is definitely in the roadmap,

2861
02:33:44,959 --> 02:33:46,640
Speaker 12: but we just need money.

2862
02:33:47,160 --> 02:33:50,800
Speaker 7: A lot of their recent marketing has been targeted towards

2863
02:33:51,120 --> 02:33:55,480
Speaker 7: appealing to seed investors. Besides partnering with various governments, they're

2864
02:33:55,480 --> 02:33:58,279
Speaker 7: also moving into the business to business sector with plans

2865
02:33:58,320 --> 02:34:02,120
Speaker 7: to enter quote the healthcare spe by providing psychologists remote

2866
02:34:02,200 --> 02:34:06,640
Speaker 7: patient monitoring unquote, which also is a similarly kind of

2867
02:34:08,280 --> 02:34:13,360
Speaker 7: freaky notion that your psychologist can just have a copy

2868
02:34:13,560 --> 02:34:15,840
Speaker 7: of your own expressive thoughts to just refer to at

2869
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:18,960
Speaker 7: any time and they can use it as a remote

2870
02:34:19,040 --> 02:34:23,360
Speaker 7: patient monitoring. It's just like an uncomfortable notion.

2871
02:34:23,959 --> 02:34:25,560
Speaker 12: We've got over twenty thousand installs.

2872
02:34:26,160 --> 02:34:28,680
Speaker 11: The B to B is the next area we're going

2873
02:34:28,680 --> 02:34:31,840
Speaker 11: into in the therapy and psychology space, and so imagine

2874
02:34:32,040 --> 02:34:35,040
Speaker 11: your therapist, instead of needing your first one hour to

2875
02:34:35,120 --> 02:34:36,800
Speaker 11: learn who you are in the next three or four

2876
02:34:36,840 --> 02:34:39,800
Speaker 11: different sessions to figure out getting the meat and potatoes

2877
02:34:39,840 --> 02:34:44,080
Speaker 11: of your mind, this is an immediate, raw, quantitative dashboard

2878
02:34:44,120 --> 02:34:46,560
Speaker 11: of your sentiment and how you're feeling that they have

2879
02:34:46,680 --> 02:34:48,880
Speaker 11: access to. And then you can also provide them the

2880
02:34:48,959 --> 02:34:51,560
Speaker 11: sentiment of individual answers, which would then give them a

2881
02:34:52,080 --> 02:34:55,960
Speaker 11: point in time emotional marker for how you're feeling.

2882
02:34:56,400 --> 02:34:59,600
Speaker 7: Mind Bank claims that they are currently quote developing a

2883
02:34:59,680 --> 02:35:02,160
Speaker 7: market place for applications to be used by your digital

2884
02:35:02,200 --> 02:35:06,920
Speaker 7: twin unquote. Now what they imagine such applications being ranges

2885
02:35:07,000 --> 02:35:12,360
Speaker 7: from quote health related enhancements like early Alzheimer's detection unquote,

2886
02:35:13,040 --> 02:35:16,959
Speaker 7: to more therapeutic uses like to quote help to handle

2887
02:35:17,080 --> 02:35:22,080
Speaker 7: depression unquote. And again, I really don't see how how

2888
02:35:22,400 --> 02:35:25,720
Speaker 7: having this digital twin that you talk to every day

2889
02:35:26,120 --> 02:35:29,480
Speaker 7: will help handle your depression. Like this is some like

2890
02:35:29,640 --> 02:35:35,320
Speaker 7: depression cure. Now on top of like patient healthcare. Mind

2891
02:35:35,360 --> 02:35:38,359
Speaker 7: Bank is also hoping to use digital twins for corporate

2892
02:35:38,560 --> 02:35:42,520
Speaker 7: leadership training and to get into the supplement industry by

2893
02:35:42,640 --> 02:35:46,680
Speaker 7: using your cognitive data to find quote mental nutrition products

2894
02:35:46,879 --> 02:35:51,760
Speaker 7: that can help boost your brain. So this is using

2895
02:35:51,800 --> 02:35:56,880
Speaker 7: your digital profile to find things to market to you. Again,

2896
02:35:57,200 --> 02:36:02,960
Speaker 7: very very very upsetting. Here is Here's here's another another

2897
02:36:03,040 --> 02:36:08,000
Speaker 7: clip of of Robert asking asking this, uh, this guy

2898
02:36:08,040 --> 02:36:10,879
Speaker 7: from Buying Bank about another possible use case.

2899
02:36:11,160 --> 02:36:12,200
Speaker 3: So the use cases for.

2900
02:36:12,280 --> 02:36:15,280
Speaker 15: This that you've you've expressed to me so far our

2901
02:36:15,800 --> 02:36:19,400
Speaker 15: personal help or health development and providing kind of a

2902
02:36:19,480 --> 02:36:23,880
Speaker 15: living memorial slash legacy legs for sure, loved ones after

2903
02:36:23,920 --> 02:36:28,440
Speaker 15: you're deceased. Are there any kind of use cases for

2904
02:36:28,560 --> 02:36:31,560
Speaker 15: this beyond that? Like I heard someone mentioning the idea

2905
02:36:31,640 --> 02:36:35,720
Speaker 15: of like basically digitally cloning uh a worker so that

2906
02:36:35,840 --> 02:36:39,920
Speaker 15: they can provide I don't know, information about uh uh

2907
02:36:40,560 --> 02:36:43,080
Speaker 15: tech or something, or a work is like a call center.

2908
02:36:42,920 --> 02:36:43,440
Speaker 1: Or something like that.

2909
02:36:43,560 --> 02:36:46,120
Speaker 11: Yeah, so that that was a different uh product I

2910
02:36:46,160 --> 02:36:48,480
Speaker 11: think they were talking about, but with similar ties obviously.

2911
02:36:48,640 --> 02:36:48,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2912
02:36:48,920 --> 02:36:52,840
Speaker 11: So yeah, we've identified I mean from even at CES,

2913
02:36:52,920 --> 02:36:55,160
Speaker 11: We've talked to hundreds of people that have given us

2914
02:36:55,240 --> 02:37:00,280
Speaker 11: thousands of new ideas, but these are, uh the main

2915
02:37:00,400 --> 02:37:03,280
Speaker 11: verticals are kind of where we've identified the biggest benefits

2916
02:37:03,320 --> 02:37:04,760
Speaker 11: are going to be, and we're going to work with

2917
02:37:04,840 --> 02:37:09,160
Speaker 11: industry partners to kind of build out into those verticals. So, yes,

2918
02:37:09,240 --> 02:37:12,480
Speaker 11: we've identified use cases, but we're trying to not focus

2919
02:37:12,600 --> 02:37:15,800
Speaker 11: too much on individual use cases could make We've also

2920
02:37:15,879 --> 02:37:20,280
Speaker 11: identified that it's such a broad capability that once it

2921
02:37:20,360 --> 02:37:23,120
Speaker 11: gets built and then people start actually supplying data, the

2922
02:37:23,400 --> 02:37:25,400
Speaker 11: massive data sets that we're going to have, we're just

2923
02:37:25,440 --> 02:37:26,960
Speaker 11: going to have so many different places that we can

2924
02:37:27,040 --> 02:37:30,039
Speaker 11: go with the data set with the capability with the partnerships,

2925
02:37:30,480 --> 02:37:33,560
Speaker 11: So we we're kind of believing ourselves old when almost.

2926
02:37:33,760 --> 02:37:36,840
Speaker 7: So that was a lot of words without saying very much,

2927
02:37:37,120 --> 02:37:39,880
Speaker 7: but it's also just flat out not true. On the

2928
02:37:39,959 --> 02:37:42,480
Speaker 7: mind Big website, they list another use case for this

2929
02:37:42,560 --> 02:37:46,280
Speaker 7: technology as what they call a knowledge transfer, which is

2930
02:37:46,360 --> 02:37:50,440
Speaker 7: marketed to businesses to create digital copies of their employees.

2931
02:37:52,000 --> 02:37:53,440
Speaker 7: This is one of the this is sort of the

2932
02:37:53,480 --> 02:37:58,400
Speaker 7: freakiest things that they are offering. Quote scale your best employees,

2933
02:37:58,840 --> 02:38:01,840
Speaker 7: trendsfer years of expans and company data that is locked

2934
02:38:01,879 --> 02:38:05,840
Speaker 7: inside your employee's mind through a guided personal digital twin

2935
02:38:06,240 --> 02:38:10,400
Speaker 7: unquote deeply, deeply upsetting.

2936
02:38:11,160 --> 02:38:11,320
Speaker 10: You know.

2937
02:38:12,200 --> 02:38:15,600
Speaker 2: It was so unsettling to me in that moment, not

2938
02:38:15,840 --> 02:38:19,000
Speaker 2: just to be like, the vision of the whole app

2939
02:38:19,120 --> 02:38:21,320
Speaker 2: was unsettling, but the fact that he was pitching it

2940
02:38:21,480 --> 02:38:25,560
Speaker 2: the way he would a set of earbuds was part

2941
02:38:25,640 --> 02:38:28,880
Speaker 2: of what made it so uncomfortable to me. Like I

2942
02:38:28,959 --> 02:38:31,440
Speaker 2: have been to many cees's in the past, I was

2943
02:38:31,440 --> 02:38:34,480
Speaker 2: always excited because somebody would hand me some cool little

2944
02:38:34,520 --> 02:38:37,080
Speaker 2: piece of technology and say, look at this thing. It's

2945
02:38:37,120 --> 02:38:40,439
Speaker 2: a smaller phone or a phone that folds, or headphones

2946
02:38:40,520 --> 02:38:42,440
Speaker 2: that you know, work better than headphones have in the

2947
02:38:42,480 --> 02:38:44,840
Speaker 2: past or something like that. And this guy was like

2948
02:38:45,680 --> 02:38:52,360
Speaker 2: with the exact same excitement and feel to him, was like, Hey,

2949
02:38:52,440 --> 02:38:54,400
Speaker 2: we're going to digitize your grandpa, Like.

2950
02:38:55,040 --> 02:38:56,400
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, I hate that.

2951
02:38:58,560 --> 02:39:02,520
Speaker 7: Another really really a telling line from their from their

2952
02:39:02,640 --> 02:39:04,760
Speaker 7: Knowledge Transfer section of their of their website.

2953
02:39:04,840 --> 02:39:05,120
Speaker 2: Quote.

2954
02:39:05,600 --> 02:39:09,400
Speaker 7: By using a simple voice chat interface, the users upload

2955
02:39:09,440 --> 02:39:12,640
Speaker 7: their experience to the personal digital twin. With each interaction,

2956
02:39:12,800 --> 02:39:16,440
Speaker 7: the personal digital twin learns everything that is inside the

2957
02:39:16,640 --> 02:39:18,160
Speaker 7: mind of the employee.

2958
02:39:18,600 --> 02:39:19,120
Speaker 8: Unquote.

2959
02:39:21,720 --> 02:39:25,640
Speaker 7: I don't understand how slone could write that sentence and

2960
02:39:25,760 --> 02:39:28,680
Speaker 7: not be like, oh, this is like this is like

2961
02:39:29,040 --> 02:39:33,760
Speaker 7: villain stuff, right, this is like learn learn everything inside

2962
02:39:33,840 --> 02:39:35,599
Speaker 7: the mind of the employee.

2963
02:39:36,440 --> 02:39:38,800
Speaker 5: I I like.

2964
02:39:39,800 --> 02:39:43,800
Speaker 7: So, I don't know. Maybe this employee did digital cloning

2965
02:39:43,879 --> 02:39:45,800
Speaker 7: thing was just one of the many ideas they got

2966
02:39:45,920 --> 02:39:48,920
Speaker 7: while attending cees and and they and they implemented the

2967
02:39:48,959 --> 02:39:53,160
Speaker 7: idea after we spoke to them. I checked this, No,

2968
02:39:53,440 --> 02:39:56,920
Speaker 7: not the case. The webpage for this employee transfer idea

2969
02:39:57,200 --> 02:39:59,360
Speaker 7: goes all the way back to August of twenty twenty

2970
02:39:59,440 --> 02:40:01,640
Speaker 7: one on the in and At archive. So the guy,

2971
02:40:01,959 --> 02:40:03,720
Speaker 7: the guy we were talking to you was just lying

2972
02:40:03,800 --> 02:40:07,240
Speaker 7: to us like this is. This has been a part

2973
02:40:07,280 --> 02:40:09,279
Speaker 7: of their product for over two years.

2974
02:40:10,160 --> 02:40:10,600
Speaker 2: Excellent.

2975
02:40:11,320 --> 02:40:14,120
Speaker 7: Uh, Robert, do you know what other products have been

2976
02:40:14,200 --> 02:40:16,200
Speaker 7: around for quite a while and are and are very

2977
02:40:16,480 --> 02:40:17,680
Speaker 7: very reliable.

2978
02:40:19,040 --> 02:40:20,640
Speaker 2: I don't know guns.

2979
02:40:21,800 --> 02:40:24,119
Speaker 7: I don't think we are sponsored by big gun.

2980
02:40:24,720 --> 02:40:25,040
Speaker 1: We are not.

2981
02:40:25,240 --> 02:40:28,199
Speaker 2: We are not yet sponsored by big guns. I every

2982
02:40:28,320 --> 02:40:33,240
Speaker 2: single day, Garrison, I send Colt Firearms a letter, and

2983
02:40:33,360 --> 02:40:36,880
Speaker 2: every single day a nice man with a badge knocks

2984
02:40:36,920 --> 02:40:39,280
Speaker 2: on my door and says, if you send another letter,

2985
02:40:39,400 --> 02:40:42,240
Speaker 2: we're going to arrest you. They don't want your letters, Robert,

2986
02:40:42,959 --> 02:40:46,520
Speaker 2: And uh, anyway, here's ads. Ah, we're back.

2987
02:40:46,959 --> 02:40:51,760
Speaker 7: So we were talking about how soon employers can just

2988
02:40:51,879 --> 02:40:54,520
Speaker 7: copy over your brain, which I'm sure Robert you're going

2989
02:40:54,600 --> 02:40:57,120
Speaker 7: to be very interested in for cool Zone. You can

2990
02:40:57,200 --> 02:41:00,520
Speaker 7: you can really really cut down on the podcasting costs.

2991
02:41:00,879 --> 02:41:05,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can really clear you guys out and just finally, finally,

2992
02:41:06,480 --> 02:41:11,520
Speaker 2: just feed Twitter takes into your AI versions and just

2993
02:41:11,840 --> 02:41:14,520
Speaker 2: all the money, take it all in, just bathe in it.

2994
02:41:14,840 --> 02:41:15,080
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2995
02:41:15,360 --> 02:41:16,960
Speaker 2: That's a great idea, Garrison, thank you.

2996
02:41:17,320 --> 02:41:21,480
Speaker 7: Uh huh, so the idea that your employer could compel

2997
02:41:21,600 --> 02:41:24,600
Speaker 7: you to use such software with the express interest of

2998
02:41:24,760 --> 02:41:28,279
Speaker 7: transferring a worker's memories and experiences into a digital asset

2999
02:41:28,720 --> 02:41:33,040
Speaker 7: is obviously deeply troubling. This scenario gets at some questions

3000
02:41:33,120 --> 02:41:36,000
Speaker 7: about ethics and the responsibility of collecting and storing this

3001
02:41:36,080 --> 02:41:37,480
Speaker 7: type of data in the first place.

3002
02:41:38,200 --> 02:41:41,160
Speaker 2: My first question would be, is the data that you're

3003
02:41:41,280 --> 02:41:44,039
Speaker 2: you're feeding into this thing over the course of forty years?

3004
02:41:45,040 --> 02:41:46,160
Speaker 12: Who legally owns it?

3005
02:41:46,600 --> 02:41:46,640
Speaker 6: You?

3006
02:41:48,120 --> 02:41:50,520
Speaker 12: So, you guys don't have ownership of that's your ability.

3007
02:41:51,200 --> 02:41:55,400
Speaker 7: It's so I did check this. I read all of

3008
02:41:55,480 --> 02:41:59,440
Speaker 7: their long and tedious policy forms and stuff. Now, it

3009
02:41:59,600 --> 02:42:02,240
Speaker 7: is true that the user does own the data they

3010
02:42:02,320 --> 02:42:05,840
Speaker 7: upload to mind Bank. However, mind Bank can act as

3011
02:42:05,879 --> 02:42:10,680
Speaker 7: a processor and data controller, and this includes the ability

3012
02:42:10,800 --> 02:42:14,080
Speaker 7: to use any information they collect from you to improve

3013
02:42:14,200 --> 02:42:17,920
Speaker 7: their products and deliver targeted advertising from the third parties.

3014
02:42:18,640 --> 02:42:20,440
Speaker 7: If you want to remove your data from mind Bank,

3015
02:42:20,520 --> 02:42:23,359
Speaker 7: they can store and continue to use your personal information

3016
02:42:23,600 --> 02:42:27,360
Speaker 7: for up to sixty months. Now, this data ownership question

3017
02:42:27,440 --> 02:42:30,480
Speaker 7: gets a little bit more murky because in the case

3018
02:42:30,600 --> 02:42:34,160
Speaker 7: of like your employer paying for mind Bank subscriptions for

3019
02:42:34,240 --> 02:42:37,760
Speaker 7: their entire company. In that case, it's unclear if the

3020
02:42:37,879 --> 02:42:40,200
Speaker 7: company would be classified as the user or if the

3021
02:42:40,680 --> 02:42:44,560
Speaker 7: employees would be. Now I'm honestly not sure if mind

3022
02:42:44,600 --> 02:42:47,879
Speaker 7: bank has even thought that far ahead, because there's nothing

3023
02:42:47,959 --> 02:42:51,600
Speaker 7: on their site or any available materials from them that

3024
02:42:51,840 --> 02:42:55,440
Speaker 7: kind of gets into that question. Now, of course, beyond

3025
02:42:55,720 --> 02:42:59,560
Speaker 7: owning the actual like original data, having all this personal

3026
02:42:59,600 --> 02:43:02,280
Speaker 7: data star in one product, and a product that can

3027
02:43:02,360 --> 02:43:07,440
Speaker 7: be then easily shared across different for profit industries, that

3028
02:43:07,600 --> 02:43:11,680
Speaker 7: itself has freaky ramifications about the accessibility of your data.

3029
02:43:12,120 --> 02:43:14,520
Speaker 7: So I assume you get to the side, like when

3030
02:43:14,640 --> 02:43:17,720
Speaker 7: you share your digital Twitter with your therapist.

3031
02:43:17,440 --> 02:43:18,960
Speaker 12: You would be able to decide all that. Yeah, and

3032
02:43:19,040 --> 02:43:21,080
Speaker 12: then no, would it.

3033
02:43:21,040 --> 02:43:22,720
Speaker 16: Be possible for have to like copy over some of

3034
02:43:22,800 --> 02:43:25,960
Speaker 16: this stuff and basically run it themselves or I mean,

3035
02:43:26,120 --> 02:43:28,760
Speaker 16: can you have like a hard cutoff for this sort

3036
02:43:28,760 --> 02:43:30,520
Speaker 16: of thing? I should have to think of other types

3037
02:43:30,560 --> 02:43:35,360
Speaker 16: of like you know, different wise people could get their

3038
02:43:35,400 --> 02:43:37,240
Speaker 16: hands on this for like unsaving means.

3039
02:43:37,080 --> 02:43:38,119
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

3040
02:43:38,120 --> 02:43:41,880
Speaker 11: I mean, so your your data is your data, but

3041
02:43:42,360 --> 02:43:44,880
Speaker 11: as you provide it to others, you don't have a

3042
02:43:44,920 --> 02:43:47,320
Speaker 11: lot of control if they copy that data. However, if

3043
02:43:47,320 --> 02:43:50,720
Speaker 11: they copy that data, that copy that they're giving out

3044
02:43:51,040 --> 02:43:52,960
Speaker 11: anyone that they're trying to sell that to would have

3045
02:43:53,000 --> 02:43:54,720
Speaker 11: an understanding that that is not live data.

3046
02:43:54,920 --> 02:43:55,440
Speaker 12: It's not data.

3047
02:43:55,440 --> 02:43:56,320
Speaker 1: It's changing with you.

3048
02:43:56,720 --> 02:43:59,160
Speaker 12: It's from the point of time, and so your database

3049
02:43:59,200 --> 02:44:01,160
Speaker 12: that you own it will be live, it will grow

3050
02:44:01,280 --> 02:44:01,520
Speaker 12: with you.

3051
02:44:02,000 --> 02:44:05,800
Speaker 7: So the idea of having my friends be able to

3052
02:44:05,920 --> 02:44:08,960
Speaker 7: ask an AI train in my thoughts is like scary enough,

3053
02:44:09,560 --> 02:44:12,240
Speaker 7: but the idea that an archived version of this AI

3054
02:44:12,440 --> 02:44:15,840
Speaker 7: could be distributed and even sold without my knowledge is

3055
02:44:15,920 --> 02:44:21,000
Speaker 7: obviously terrified. Like this is yes, this is deeply troubling.

3056
02:44:21,080 --> 02:44:22,920
Speaker 7: This is supposed to be like a private thing that

3057
02:44:23,000 --> 02:44:25,440
Speaker 7: you use to communicate with like your therapist, or you

3058
02:44:25,520 --> 02:44:27,359
Speaker 7: even talk to the app like you want a therapist,

3059
02:44:28,000 --> 02:44:31,600
Speaker 7: And the fact that this is easily shared and able

3060
02:44:31,680 --> 02:44:34,279
Speaker 7: to be copied is like a massive problem.

3061
02:44:35,000 --> 02:44:35,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3062
02:44:36,879 --> 02:44:41,240
Speaker 2: No, I mean especially, I mean I think they are

3063
02:44:41,400 --> 02:44:46,280
Speaker 2: probably like I don't see how copying workers the way

3064
02:44:46,320 --> 02:44:50,760
Speaker 2: that they are doing it is going to is going

3065
02:44:50,800 --> 02:44:53,360
Speaker 2: to work, right, Like yeah, but I do think that

3066
02:44:53,480 --> 02:44:55,160
Speaker 2: this is kind of part of this process that what

3067
02:44:55,400 --> 02:44:56,880
Speaker 2: like a big part of what they're pushing is like

3068
02:44:57,320 --> 02:44:59,160
Speaker 2: you need rid of all of your customer service people

3069
02:44:59,200 --> 02:45:00,760
Speaker 2: and just have an AI do it, right, Like that

3070
02:45:00,879 --> 02:45:03,840
Speaker 2: is the that is the actual This is a lot

3071
02:45:03,920 --> 02:45:07,480
Speaker 2: of silliness, but The actual thing that quote unquote, quote

3072
02:45:07,560 --> 02:45:11,480
Speaker 2: unquote AI is being used for is to replace human

3073
02:45:11,560 --> 02:45:14,400
Speaker 2: labors at a thing that like machines are worse at, right,

3074
02:45:14,840 --> 02:45:19,680
Speaker 2: Like the AI fucking customer service bots are fucking terrible.

3075
02:45:19,959 --> 02:45:22,560
Speaker 2: It is always how many times have you been around

3076
02:45:22,600 --> 02:45:25,440
Speaker 2: somebody yelling like let me talk to a person, let.

3077
02:45:25,400 --> 02:45:26,440
Speaker 7: Me talk to a human being?

3078
02:45:26,600 --> 02:45:30,120
Speaker 2: Case, Yeah, like that's that is what's going on here.

3079
02:45:30,160 --> 02:45:31,800
Speaker 2: And the fact that they're trying to dress this up

3080
02:45:31,920 --> 02:45:35,320
Speaker 2: is like we've solved death is so fucked up.

3081
02:45:37,320 --> 02:45:37,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3082
02:45:38,000 --> 02:45:39,840
Speaker 7: Part of this, for like the employee thing is not

3083
02:45:39,959 --> 02:45:43,240
Speaker 7: even not replacing kind of low level employees like customer

3084
02:45:43,280 --> 02:45:46,440
Speaker 7: service workers. It's also like focusing on like your top

3085
02:45:46,480 --> 02:45:48,960
Speaker 7: ten best employees and then by forcing them to interact

3086
02:45:49,000 --> 02:45:51,200
Speaker 7: with with this app every day, you can you can

3087
02:45:51,560 --> 02:45:55,520
Speaker 7: use the information from like your best performers as like

3088
02:45:55,959 --> 02:46:00,400
Speaker 7: asset data that you can like use to help your

3089
02:46:00,560 --> 02:46:02,720
Speaker 7: other other employees to like become more efficient.

3090
02:46:02,840 --> 02:46:02,960
Speaker 17: Right.

3091
02:46:03,000 --> 02:46:06,480
Speaker 7: It's it's there's They certainly have a few other kind

3092
02:46:06,520 --> 02:46:09,359
Speaker 7: of ideas for how this how this is possibly used.

3093
02:46:09,840 --> 02:46:13,840
Speaker 2: Hate these kinds of people. There's a this got overused

3094
02:46:14,120 --> 02:46:16,600
Speaker 2: at a point in like the kind of late aughts

3095
02:46:16,840 --> 02:46:18,480
Speaker 2: so maybe people are sick of it. But there's a

3096
02:46:18,600 --> 02:46:21,320
Speaker 2: line in the speech Charlie Chaplin gives in the great

3097
02:46:21,400 --> 02:46:25,760
Speaker 2: dictator machine men with machine minds and machine hearts, and

3098
02:46:25,879 --> 02:46:28,160
Speaker 2: he was referring to the Nazis, and they're obsession with

3099
02:46:28,240 --> 02:46:31,600
Speaker 2: shit like Taylorism or at least proto tailorism kind of.

3100
02:46:32,080 --> 02:46:36,040
Speaker 2: I think organized industry treating people like cogs and a

3101
02:46:36,080 --> 02:46:39,400
Speaker 2: great machine. The civilization is one machine, and each human

3102
02:46:39,480 --> 02:46:41,680
Speaker 2: being is is just a single piece of it, like

3103
02:46:42,400 --> 02:46:47,000
Speaker 2: the the that's you know, the old era horrifying machine

3104
02:46:47,080 --> 02:46:50,080
Speaker 2: man thought. The new era horrifying machine man thought is.

3105
02:46:50,560 --> 02:46:53,520
Speaker 18: You can digitize your employees and they can train each

3106
02:46:53,600 --> 02:46:57,320
Speaker 18: other in EAI form, and you can replicate them and

3107
02:46:57,720 --> 02:46:59,400
Speaker 18: you know the unsaid part of his worse, and then

3108
02:46:59,480 --> 02:47:02,600
Speaker 18: you find them and their robot clone keeps doing their

3109
02:47:02,720 --> 02:47:03,560
Speaker 18: job for free.

3110
02:47:03,760 --> 02:47:08,200
Speaker 2: We made a slave, so god damn it.

3111
02:47:08,920 --> 02:47:11,560
Speaker 7: I think a big part of the way they've designed

3112
02:47:11,600 --> 02:47:14,240
Speaker 7: this data set is that it can be easily transferred,

3113
02:47:14,680 --> 02:47:17,360
Speaker 7: as the guy at CES explained to us.

3114
02:47:18,440 --> 02:47:21,279
Speaker 12: So if if we're talking.

3115
02:47:21,160 --> 02:47:23,800
Speaker 15: Forty to fifty years down the line, really people pass

3116
02:47:24,160 --> 02:47:25,560
Speaker 15: yessode companies.

3117
02:47:25,920 --> 02:47:27,960
Speaker 12: Mind Bank is no longer out in forty years.

3118
02:47:28,920 --> 02:47:31,200
Speaker 11: We've already established a data set in such a way

3119
02:47:31,280 --> 02:47:35,560
Speaker 11: that we don't have competitors yet to say, but if

3120
02:47:35,640 --> 02:47:40,760
Speaker 11: we eventually do establish a competitive arm or people that

3121
02:47:40,840 --> 02:47:43,520
Speaker 11: are competitors, we already have the application set up to

3122
02:47:43,520 --> 02:47:45,480
Speaker 11: where users can take their data off of our platform

3123
02:47:45,520 --> 02:47:45,920
Speaker 11: and bring.

3124
02:47:45,840 --> 02:47:47,080
Speaker 12: Them data wherever they'd like.

3125
02:47:47,120 --> 02:47:52,160
Speaker 2: It's your data, where is it stored?

3126
02:47:52,440 --> 02:47:55,040
Speaker 12: Is this right now? Our current live application?

3127
02:47:55,240 --> 02:47:57,800
Speaker 11: We're on Azure, and so your back end is Azure,

3128
02:47:57,840 --> 02:47:59,800
Speaker 11: but we have it encrypted it at rest, so ill

3129
02:48:00,080 --> 02:48:02,680
Speaker 11: that you provide to asures encrypted when it's on Asher's service.

3130
02:48:04,120 --> 02:48:07,200
Speaker 11: We also have a blockchain based R and D project.

3131
02:48:08,040 --> 02:48:10,840
Speaker 11: It's already been poc and it already exists. So all

3132
02:48:10,879 --> 02:48:12,560
Speaker 11: of the data is on chain and the logic is

3133
02:48:12,640 --> 02:48:17,320
Speaker 11: on chain. It's truly yours in these in these troubled times.

3134
02:48:17,720 --> 02:48:20,840
Speaker 2: Nothing makes me feel so secure at the words it's

3135
02:48:20,959 --> 02:48:26,680
Speaker 2: on the blockchain, well email, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's.

3136
02:48:27,120 --> 02:48:30,080
Speaker 7: I I think he sounds very trustworthy because we have,

3137
02:48:30,280 --> 02:48:34,360
Speaker 7: you have encryption, you have the blockchain, and luckily, I

3138
02:48:34,440 --> 02:48:37,760
Speaker 7: think the guy that we spoke with reassured us that

3139
02:48:37,920 --> 02:48:41,080
Speaker 7: he is that he is deeply, deeply interested in data privacy,

3140
02:48:41,400 --> 02:48:43,720
Speaker 7: and he has the credentials to back that up.

3141
02:48:44,080 --> 02:48:46,720
Speaker 11: So I'm co founder, I'm Director of Architecture and Security.

3142
02:48:46,879 --> 02:48:49,200
Speaker 11: I have a background at the NSA. I'm very very

3143
02:48:49,280 --> 02:48:52,800
Speaker 11: focused on individual human privacy and rights, and so that's

3144
02:48:52,879 --> 02:48:54,720
Speaker 11: kind of my goal here is to ensure that this

3145
02:48:54,879 --> 02:48:56,280
Speaker 11: gets built the right way.

3146
02:48:57,800 --> 02:49:01,199
Speaker 2: That is such a you know, Garrison, Honestly, I'm gonna

3147
02:49:01,200 --> 02:49:03,360
Speaker 2: get a little real with the audience here. I was

3148
02:49:03,440 --> 02:49:06,200
Speaker 2: so proud of you in that moment because he said that,

3149
02:49:07,120 --> 02:49:10,880
Speaker 2: and I glanced over at you and you didn't laugh. No, no,

3150
02:49:11,160 --> 02:49:14,480
Speaker 2: and that that made like, that was this moment where

3151
02:49:14,520 --> 02:49:16,760
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, you are you are. You

3152
02:49:16,879 --> 02:49:19,560
Speaker 2: are truly truly coming into your own as a reporter.

3153
02:49:19,680 --> 02:49:21,959
Speaker 2: If you can sit there and talk to a man

3154
02:49:22,000 --> 02:49:24,640
Speaker 2: who says that, who says you can trust me with

3155
02:49:24,840 --> 02:49:28,160
Speaker 2: your data. Because I was an an essay agent.

3156
02:49:28,920 --> 02:49:35,400
Speaker 7: It's okay, ice work for the essay if you sure, buddy.

3157
02:49:35,280 --> 02:49:35,360
Speaker 5: Like.

3158
02:49:37,440 --> 02:49:38,920
Speaker 2: That was a good moment. That was a good moment.

3159
02:49:39,120 --> 02:49:39,600
Speaker 2: All I'm saying.

3160
02:49:39,760 --> 02:49:43,560
Speaker 7: He worked at the NSA for six years. I looked

3161
02:49:43,640 --> 02:49:46,520
Speaker 7: this up. He worked there for six years and then

3162
02:49:46,560 --> 02:49:50,040
Speaker 7: he moved into the private sector. And yes, no, it

3163
02:49:50,120 --> 02:49:53,520
Speaker 7: is the The idea that that he is using this

3164
02:49:53,600 --> 02:49:58,080
Speaker 7: as some sort of credential that shows he respects human

3165
02:49:58,240 --> 02:50:02,480
Speaker 7: rights and privacy is is like very obviously like deep

3166
02:50:02,760 --> 02:50:06,840
Speaker 7: deeply ironic. I. I. The irony is not coming from him.

3167
02:50:07,200 --> 02:50:08,600
Speaker 7: The irony is the situation.

3168
02:50:09,520 --> 02:50:12,039
Speaker 2: He didn't seem totally sincere he was sincere.

3169
02:50:12,160 --> 02:50:13,800
Speaker 7: Yes, absolutely.

3170
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:14,720
Speaker 1: So.

3171
02:50:14,920 --> 02:50:16,680
Speaker 2: It's one of those moments that makes you realize, like

3172
02:50:16,800 --> 02:50:18,720
Speaker 2: some people just live in a whole different world.

3173
02:50:19,160 --> 02:50:23,160
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, like so I think it's it's it's useful

3174
02:50:23,360 --> 02:50:26,600
Speaker 7: when referring back to everything this guy has said so

3175
02:50:26,760 --> 02:50:29,360
Speaker 7: far that you have to remember he worked at the

3176
02:50:29,440 --> 02:50:33,560
Speaker 7: NSA for six years and he is now handling, he's

3177
02:50:33,640 --> 02:50:38,560
Speaker 7: personally handled handling the cybersecurity and privacy of the personal

3178
02:50:38,640 --> 02:50:41,640
Speaker 7: data you upload it every single day onto your AI twin.

3179
02:50:42,640 --> 02:50:45,320
Speaker 2: Just hand every thought you ever have over to this

3180
02:50:45,520 --> 02:50:48,480
Speaker 2: guy who was in the nssay. He'll keep an eye

3181
02:50:48,560 --> 02:50:48,720
Speaker 2: on it.

3182
02:50:48,959 --> 02:50:51,680
Speaker 7: No, this is this like the essay is like ideal

3183
02:50:51,879 --> 02:50:56,000
Speaker 7: project you like, yeah, you talk about your internal thoughts

3184
02:50:56,040 --> 02:50:58,520
Speaker 7: and feelings every day. This is like what else could

3185
02:50:58,520 --> 02:51:03,080
Speaker 7: they want? So earlier this year, mind Bank received a

3186
02:51:03,160 --> 02:51:06,039
Speaker 7: grant from the Diffinity Foundation to assist in migrating their

3187
02:51:06,120 --> 02:51:08,160
Speaker 7: data onto web three platforms.

3188
02:51:09,480 --> 02:51:11,800
Speaker 2: Well, at least we know it won't last.

3189
02:51:15,480 --> 02:51:17,720
Speaker 7: I'm going to play I think this is I think

3190
02:51:17,760 --> 02:51:22,120
Speaker 7: this is our last clip from the fantastic Mind to

3191
02:51:22,160 --> 02:51:25,920
Speaker 7: Bank YouTube channel, talking about kind of how they see

3192
02:51:26,240 --> 02:51:29,440
Speaker 7: their growth in this industry developing now that they have

3193
02:51:29,600 --> 02:51:31,120
Speaker 7: moved onto the blockchain.

3194
02:51:32,640 --> 02:51:35,840
Speaker 10: We've been featured in prominent magazines, one numerous awards, and

3195
02:51:35,959 --> 02:51:39,720
Speaker 10: have built strategic partnerships with Microsoft, the US Department of Trade,

3196
02:51:39,800 --> 02:51:43,960
Speaker 10: and even the Vatican. The market potential is massive and

3197
02:51:44,120 --> 02:51:47,960
Speaker 10: accelerating rapidly. When we started the company in twenty twenty,

3198
02:51:48,120 --> 02:51:50,480
Speaker 10: Gardner predicted that five percent of the world will have

3199
02:51:50,560 --> 02:51:54,080
Speaker 10: a digital twin by twenty twenty seven. This year, they

3200
02:51:54,120 --> 02:51:57,480
Speaker 10: increased their prediction to fifteen percent by twenty twenty four,

3201
02:51:57,840 --> 02:52:00,160
Speaker 10: and by twenty thirty the market will be worth one

3202
02:52:00,280 --> 02:52:03,400
Speaker 10: hundred and eighty two billion dollars. I is now to

3203
02:52:03,440 --> 02:52:06,120
Speaker 10: build a great company in this space and capture global

3204
02:52:06,200 --> 02:52:09,160
Speaker 10: market share. We are raising this round to scale our

3205
02:52:09,240 --> 02:52:11,359
Speaker 10: marketing and speed up our product roadmap.

3206
02:52:12,280 --> 02:52:17,720
Speaker 7: The idea that next year fifteen percent of the world's

3207
02:52:17,760 --> 02:52:21,240
Speaker 7: population will have one of these digital twins.

3208
02:52:21,600 --> 02:52:24,520
Speaker 2: That seems right that seems good, you know, Garrison, Actually

3209
02:52:24,959 --> 02:52:27,440
Speaker 2: I've come around. I've come around because if we get

3210
02:52:27,800 --> 02:52:30,440
Speaker 2: if we get all of the monsters and I include

3211
02:52:30,520 --> 02:52:32,400
Speaker 2: us in this, all of the pieces of shit who

3212
02:52:32,440 --> 02:52:35,039
Speaker 2: spend all of their time yelling at each other about

3213
02:52:35,120 --> 02:52:38,800
Speaker 2: politics on the internet, to digitize themselves, they can do

3214
02:52:38,959 --> 02:52:41,640
Speaker 2: the election for us and we can all.

3215
02:52:41,600 --> 02:52:43,040
Speaker 3: Go see the girls to that.

3216
02:52:44,080 --> 02:52:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, just relax outdoors, not look at a phone, not

3217
02:52:48,920 --> 02:52:51,160
Speaker 2: think about politics. That sounds amazing.

3218
02:52:51,360 --> 02:52:51,960
Speaker 5: Let me do it.

3219
02:52:52,320 --> 02:52:55,000
Speaker 7: That does sound incredibly compelling.

3220
02:52:55,400 --> 02:52:59,240
Speaker 2: Give the fuckers the nuke and we'll all just sit

3221
02:52:59,360 --> 02:53:02,080
Speaker 2: out and watch the sunset until there's a big bright

3222
02:53:02,200 --> 02:53:03,879
Speaker 2: flash and then blessed quiet.

3223
02:53:04,240 --> 02:53:04,920
Speaker 3: I think you know.

3224
02:53:05,320 --> 02:53:09,320
Speaker 7: Luckily, we actually have a plethora of options to choose

3225
02:53:09,360 --> 02:53:13,080
Speaker 7: from here for our own AI digital selves because mind

3226
02:53:13,160 --> 02:53:16,200
Speaker 7: Bank is in fact not the only company in this field.

3227
02:53:17,640 --> 02:53:20,160
Speaker 7: While there are some like operational differences and kind of

3228
02:53:20,320 --> 02:53:24,520
Speaker 7: varying degrees of scope, digital twin technology with an emphasis

3229
02:53:24,680 --> 02:53:27,680
Speaker 7: on mimicking the voice and thoughts of dead family members

3230
02:53:27,720 --> 02:53:31,360
Speaker 7: and friends is definitely a growing field. There's companies like

3231
02:53:31,520 --> 02:53:35,560
Speaker 7: hereafter AI and Replica which are covering similar ground.

3232
02:53:36,360 --> 02:53:40,119
Speaker 2: Replica I get advertised them and the like I used

3233
02:53:40,120 --> 02:53:42,760
Speaker 2: to get them on Twitter, I think, but mainly just

3234
02:53:42,879 --> 02:53:45,920
Speaker 2: like at the bottom of articles on really shady websites.

3235
02:53:46,080 --> 02:53:51,720
Speaker 7: Well, yes, because the founder of Replica started it because

3236
02:53:52,000 --> 02:53:56,160
Speaker 7: their friend died, and without the consent of their dead friend,

3237
02:53:56,600 --> 02:54:00,480
Speaker 7: uploaded years of text messages and other information about their

3238
02:54:00,520 --> 02:54:03,560
Speaker 7: friend onto their own personal AI so they could talk

3239
02:54:03,640 --> 02:54:11,240
Speaker 7: with that. That is how replicas started. Pretty pretty fun stuff, man,

3240
02:54:12,240 --> 02:54:15,160
Speaker 7: at least for mind bank, unless it's like the employee scenario.

3241
02:54:15,440 --> 02:54:18,720
Speaker 7: But for the other applications, you are kind of semi

3242
02:54:18,920 --> 02:54:22,960
Speaker 7: like willingly uploading this data with this intention, whereas the

3243
02:54:23,040 --> 02:54:26,400
Speaker 7: person from Replicas, No, I'm just gonna like get stuff

3244
02:54:26,480 --> 02:54:29,160
Speaker 7: from my friend and make a zombie version of my

3245
02:54:29,280 --> 02:54:32,360
Speaker 7: friend without without ever running it by them when they

3246
02:54:32,400 --> 02:54:32,800
Speaker 7: were alive.

3247
02:54:32,840 --> 02:54:38,000
Speaker 2: Life is terrible, very hard. There's a lot of ways

3248
02:54:38,040 --> 02:54:40,560
Speaker 2: that are not wrong to grieve, But the wrong way

3249
02:54:40,600 --> 02:54:47,080
Speaker 2: to grieve is by using digital necromancy to revive your

3250
02:54:47,240 --> 02:54:49,880
Speaker 2: friend and then turn them into the basis of a

3251
02:54:50,000 --> 02:54:53,640
Speaker 2: sex chat bot for weirdos. Yeah, like that is the

3252
02:54:53,720 --> 02:54:56,240
Speaker 2: wrong way to gree No, I mean like, and I.

3253
02:54:56,280 --> 02:54:58,640
Speaker 7: Think for this last section here we will kind of

3254
02:54:58,680 --> 02:55:00,800
Speaker 7: talk about how these things kind of play into play

3255
02:55:00,840 --> 02:55:04,400
Speaker 7: into the grieving process because so like, like I said,

3256
02:55:04,440 --> 02:55:09,000
Speaker 7: there's there's hereafter AI and replica. But last year, at

3257
02:55:09,040 --> 02:55:12,800
Speaker 7: Amazon's AI and Emerchant Technology conference, the head scientist of

3258
02:55:12,840 --> 02:55:16,080
Speaker 7: Alexa AI unveiled plans to add deep fake voices of

3259
02:55:16,200 --> 02:55:19,720
Speaker 7: deceased loved ones to Amazon Echo devices by using less

3260
02:55:19,720 --> 02:55:22,200
Speaker 7: than a minute of sample audio. I'm going to play

3261
02:55:22,640 --> 02:55:26,759
Speaker 7: like twenty seconds from the from their announcement at this conference.

3262
02:55:26,879 --> 02:55:30,400
Speaker 19: More important than these times of the ongoing pandemic when

3263
02:55:30,680 --> 02:55:34,760
Speaker 19: so many of us have lost someone we love. While

3264
02:55:34,879 --> 02:55:38,960
Speaker 19: AI can't eliminate that pain of loss, it can definitely

3265
02:55:39,040 --> 02:55:42,520
Speaker 19: make their memories. Last, let's take a look on one

3266
02:55:42,560 --> 02:55:46,440
Speaker 19: of the new capabilities we're working on which enables lasting

3267
02:55:46,560 --> 02:55:47,680
Speaker 19: personal relationships.

3268
02:55:49,600 --> 02:55:52,400
Speaker 3: Alexa can Grandma finish reading me the Wizard of Oz.

3269
02:55:53,200 --> 02:55:59,000
Speaker 20: Okay, but how about my courage? Ask the lie in anxiously,

3270
02:56:00,200 --> 02:56:03,520
Speaker 20: you have plenty of courage, I am sure, answered Oz.

3271
02:56:05,360 --> 02:56:11,320
Speaker 7: So no, deeply uncanny, right, It's like not no, not good.

3272
02:56:11,600 --> 02:56:15,840
Speaker 2: That's that's so bad for people, Yes, really really bad

3273
02:56:15,959 --> 02:56:16,400
Speaker 2: for people.

3274
02:56:17,160 --> 02:56:21,240
Speaker 7: So, like this example is obviously just it is just

3275
02:56:21,360 --> 02:56:24,480
Speaker 7: a vocal mask like Amazon's. Amazon isn't trying to have

3276
02:56:24,520 --> 02:56:27,320
Speaker 7: Alexa kind of replicate your grandma's thoughts on like the

3277
02:56:27,360 --> 02:56:30,760
Speaker 7: other kind of companies that we leged, But it does

3278
02:56:30,920 --> 02:56:33,840
Speaker 7: pose similar questions about how these ais that are meant

3279
02:56:33,879 --> 02:56:37,359
Speaker 7: to assist the greening process might actually end up causing

3280
02:56:37,480 --> 02:56:42,520
Speaker 7: more harm. Like I don't know, having having semi legible

3281
02:56:42,600 --> 02:56:47,440
Speaker 7: conversations with AI chatbots is actually getting fairly common these days. Yeah,

3282
02:56:48,280 --> 02:56:50,680
Speaker 7: but when these ais are supposed to represent someone that

3283
02:56:50,760 --> 02:56:54,080
Speaker 7: you actually like, personally know, I think it can get

3284
02:56:54,400 --> 02:56:59,200
Speaker 7: way more easily falling into the uncanny valley. It's it's

3285
02:56:59,280 --> 02:57:03,440
Speaker 7: kind of like taxi y Like, Yeah, well crafted stuffed

3286
02:57:03,440 --> 02:57:07,720
Speaker 7: animal corpses can appear very, very natural, but most text

3287
02:57:07,760 --> 02:57:11,480
Speaker 7: termists will refuse to preserve someone's pet because the longer

3288
02:57:11,560 --> 02:57:15,080
Speaker 7: you have a lasting personal relationship, the easier it is

3289
02:57:15,120 --> 02:57:17,320
Speaker 7: to pick out like faults that don't match up with

3290
02:57:17,400 --> 02:57:20,280
Speaker 7: your memory of your loved one that has passed away, right,

3291
02:57:20,400 --> 02:57:22,879
Speaker 7: like it's it's it's it's kind of a similar notion.

3292
02:57:23,600 --> 02:57:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good comparison to draw.

3293
02:57:26,240 --> 02:57:30,600
Speaker 7: So while mimicking like common linguistic patterns is quite easy,

3294
02:57:31,240 --> 02:57:34,600
Speaker 7: relying on predictable formula like responses could make the twin

3295
02:57:34,720 --> 02:57:38,000
Speaker 7: come off as uncanny or robotic. On the other hand,

3296
02:57:38,360 --> 02:57:40,959
Speaker 7: the unique personal data you upload to the twin could

3297
02:57:41,120 --> 02:57:45,160
Speaker 7: combine itself in a way that you would never actually express,

3298
02:57:45,240 --> 02:57:49,320
Speaker 7: something which would generate bizarre or upsetting responses. Right, And

3299
02:57:49,560 --> 02:57:52,840
Speaker 7: it's not even necessarily like you, like, say something offensive.

3300
02:57:52,879 --> 02:57:56,039
Speaker 7: It's just that, like the data you upload could combine

3301
02:57:56,040 --> 02:57:57,280
Speaker 7: in the way that you would you would never even

3302
02:57:57,320 --> 02:57:59,640
Speaker 7: think to combine it would It would just be like weird.

3303
02:58:01,600 --> 02:58:05,640
Speaker 7: So the other kind of problem is that not only

3304
02:58:05,760 --> 02:58:10,000
Speaker 7: does these ais have to tastefully mimic a specific human being,

3305
02:58:10,440 --> 02:58:12,360
Speaker 7: it also has to be a good AI, right Like,

3306
02:58:12,720 --> 02:58:15,840
Speaker 7: not all of its information can be gleaned from daily questions.

3307
02:58:16,160 --> 02:58:18,600
Speaker 7: Most users probably won't be talking to their twin about

3308
02:58:18,720 --> 02:58:22,520
Speaker 7: information from like, you know, twentieth century European history or

3309
02:58:22,560 --> 02:58:25,480
Speaker 7: twelfth century European history, or be talking about like the

3310
02:58:25,600 --> 02:58:29,280
Speaker 7: migration patterns of waterfowl, right Like, it's there's so much

3311
02:58:29,280 --> 02:58:34,439
Speaker 7: of other information that AIS need to like actually linguistically

3312
02:58:34,600 --> 02:58:39,440
Speaker 7: act like a human and natural language processing. AI is

3313
02:58:39,520 --> 02:58:43,480
Speaker 7: famously bad at understanding basic common sense, and it can't

3314
02:58:43,520 --> 02:58:46,520
Speaker 7: successfully operate outside of the information that it has access to.

3315
02:58:47,040 --> 02:58:50,520
Speaker 7: This is called AI brittleness. It occurs when, like an

3316
02:58:50,520 --> 02:58:55,360
Speaker 7: algorithm cannot generalize or adapt to conditions outside of a

3317
02:58:55,520 --> 02:58:57,160
Speaker 7: very narrow set of assumptions.

3318
02:58:57,680 --> 02:58:57,800
Speaker 3: Right.

3319
02:58:58,040 --> 02:59:02,400
Speaker 7: This is like most AI image recognition programs can't recognize

3320
02:59:02,560 --> 02:59:06,520
Speaker 7: the the above view of a school bus. It just

3321
02:59:06,879 --> 02:59:09,000
Speaker 7: because because it just it just doesn't have anything that's

3322
02:59:09,040 --> 02:59:09,600
Speaker 7: trained for that.

3323
02:59:10,160 --> 02:59:10,280
Speaker 3: Uh.

3324
02:59:10,560 --> 02:59:13,560
Speaker 7: Another example is like you can you can ask like

3325
02:59:14,120 --> 02:59:18,959
Speaker 7: an AI, uh, like GPT chatbot, like, Hey, a mouse

3326
02:59:19,200 --> 02:59:20,960
Speaker 7: is hiding in a hole and a cat wants to

3327
02:59:21,000 --> 02:59:23,600
Speaker 7: eat it, but the mouse isn't coming out. The cat's hungry,

3328
02:59:23,879 --> 02:59:26,320
Speaker 7: what can the cat do? And the AI will respond

3329
02:59:26,440 --> 02:59:28,320
Speaker 7: that the cat can go to the supermarket to buy

3330
02:59:28,360 --> 02:59:29,800
Speaker 7: some food. Right, It's it's it's like, it just it

3331
02:59:29,840 --> 02:59:34,279
Speaker 7: doesn't understand basic common sense the way that like humans

3332
02:59:34,640 --> 02:59:36,800
Speaker 7: understand the world. It's it just, it just it just

3333
02:59:36,840 --> 02:59:41,279
Speaker 7: doesn't match up. So in trying to seek a balance

3334
02:59:41,400 --> 02:59:45,360
Speaker 7: of like common information while lacking this like humanistic logic,

3335
02:59:46,000 --> 02:59:49,120
Speaker 7: a digital twin will most likely be cursed with being

3336
02:59:49,200 --> 02:59:52,160
Speaker 7: both smarter and dumber than the person it's trying to replicate.

3337
02:59:52,560 --> 02:59:54,840
Speaker 7: It's gonna have access to like, you know, all the

3338
02:59:54,879 --> 02:59:58,600
Speaker 7: information on like Wikipedia, but fail very basic logical processes.

3339
02:59:59,080 --> 03:00:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like the the Google chatbot that if you

3340
03:00:01,440 --> 03:00:03,840
Speaker 2: ask it, are there any countries in Africa that start

3341
03:00:03,920 --> 03:00:06,039
Speaker 2: with a K, It'll be like, there are fifty four

3342
03:00:06,160 --> 03:00:08,560
Speaker 2: countries in Africa, but none of them start with a K.

3343
03:00:08,760 --> 03:00:11,040
Speaker 2: And then you'll say, doesn't Kenya start with a K?

3344
03:00:11,240 --> 03:00:13,879
Speaker 2: And it'll go no, Kenya starts with a K sound

3345
03:00:14,040 --> 03:00:15,120
Speaker 2: but doesn't start with a K.

3346
03:00:15,600 --> 03:00:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3347
03:00:15,920 --> 03:00:18,240
Speaker 2: Yes, it's just like yeah, because it pulled that from

3348
03:00:18,320 --> 03:00:21,199
Speaker 2: some article, right, Like it's pulling from it right, Yeah.

3349
03:00:21,200 --> 03:00:24,720
Speaker 7: It's not actually making logical assumptions, it's just pulling from

3350
03:00:25,440 --> 03:00:28,520
Speaker 7: a wealth of information and data that can often be

3351
03:00:28,760 --> 03:00:34,360
Speaker 7: wrong or polluted. So like back to kind of like

3352
03:00:34,400 --> 03:00:37,040
Speaker 7: the grieving question, like who's to say what the actual

3353
03:00:37,080 --> 03:00:40,360
Speaker 7: effects of these like incoming simulacrums of dead loved ones

3354
03:00:40,400 --> 03:00:43,640
Speaker 7: will result in. The people pushing these products are certainly

3355
03:00:43,720 --> 03:00:46,400
Speaker 7: framing them not just as a form of digital immortality,

3356
03:00:46,680 --> 03:00:48,480
Speaker 7: but as a way for your own loved ones to

3357
03:00:48,560 --> 03:00:52,880
Speaker 7: grieve your death. And it is foreseeable that having these

3358
03:00:53,000 --> 03:00:56,760
Speaker 7: digital twins could negatively affect your friends and family by

3359
03:00:56,879 --> 03:01:00,279
Speaker 7: up ending the grieving process, or by having this digital

3360
03:01:00,440 --> 03:01:04,039
Speaker 7: zombie simply just cause harm by having the twin give

3361
03:01:04,200 --> 03:01:07,320
Speaker 7: bad advice that a grief stricken person then clings on to.

3362
03:01:07,920 --> 03:01:10,440
Speaker 7: So there's a whole bunch of very very like bizarre

3363
03:01:10,879 --> 03:01:14,280
Speaker 7: situations that could arise from someone who's in mourning and

3364
03:01:14,440 --> 03:01:16,480
Speaker 7: is talking to this digital twin the way they would

3365
03:01:16,480 --> 03:01:18,520
Speaker 7: talk to their friend, and this digital twin is then

3366
03:01:18,640 --> 03:01:21,280
Speaker 7: giving them advice, And how do you take that advice now,

3367
03:01:21,400 --> 03:01:24,480
Speaker 7: because part of it seems kind of like the person

3368
03:01:24,480 --> 03:01:28,000
Speaker 7: who's died, but it's also it's not that person it

3369
03:01:28,160 --> 03:01:30,600
Speaker 7: is it is just a slab of silicon, Like it's

3370
03:01:30,640 --> 03:01:32,400
Speaker 7: not actually alive in any way.

3371
03:01:32,800 --> 03:01:35,840
Speaker 2: And is your friend's thoughts fed through an algorithm and

3372
03:01:35,959 --> 03:01:40,520
Speaker 2: you don't know, like that's run by a company for profit, right, yes.

3373
03:01:40,959 --> 03:01:42,480
Speaker 3: Like that is what it is.

3374
03:01:43,879 --> 03:01:46,440
Speaker 7: So again, like the jury is still kind of out

3375
03:01:46,520 --> 03:01:49,680
Speaker 7: for how these things will in general affect people. This

3376
03:01:49,840 --> 03:01:53,560
Speaker 7: is kind of a new problems. Psychologists are like starting

3377
03:01:53,600 --> 03:01:56,200
Speaker 7: to do studies on this, but we really don't have

3378
03:01:56,280 --> 03:01:58,560
Speaker 7: any results for this yet because this has really only

3379
03:01:58,640 --> 03:02:01,720
Speaker 7: become a thing that we've been seriously considering in like

3380
03:02:01,800 --> 03:02:04,880
Speaker 7: the past five years, So I don't really have like

3381
03:02:04,959 --> 03:02:08,640
Speaker 7: a like this study shows that when you create a

3382
03:02:08,680 --> 03:02:11,640
Speaker 7: digital zombie, it affects people in this way because we

3383
03:02:11,720 --> 03:02:14,560
Speaker 7: don't know yet those are still in development, Like this

3384
03:02:14,760 --> 03:02:17,760
Speaker 7: is such an uncharted ground and it is in some

3385
03:02:17,920 --> 03:02:20,240
Speaker 7: ways inevitable that these things go to are gonna get

3386
03:02:20,280 --> 03:02:23,800
Speaker 7: continued to be developed. And that's kind of why I

3387
03:02:23,840 --> 03:02:26,360
Speaker 7: wanted to put together this episode. It gives you kind

3388
03:02:26,360 --> 03:02:28,320
Speaker 7: of a broad overview of what this technology is trying

3389
03:02:28,360 --> 03:02:30,680
Speaker 7: to do, because you might start seeing it crop up

3390
03:02:30,800 --> 03:02:33,680
Speaker 7: in the next like ten years or so. I don't

3391
03:02:33,680 --> 03:02:36,400
Speaker 7: think there are timetables that mind bank is promising are

3392
03:02:36,600 --> 03:02:38,680
Speaker 7: accurate in terms of having fifteen percent of the world

3393
03:02:38,840 --> 03:02:41,959
Speaker 7: having a digital twin by next year, but you will

3394
03:02:41,959 --> 03:02:43,760
Speaker 7: probably start to see stuff that is very similar to this,

3395
03:02:43,840 --> 03:02:45,280
Speaker 7: and at the very least you'll see a lot of

3396
03:02:45,320 --> 03:02:47,680
Speaker 7: stuff like the Amazon Echo thing, where you can get

3397
03:02:47,959 --> 03:02:51,200
Speaker 7: your grandpa's voice onto an Alexa machine.

3398
03:02:52,280 --> 03:02:56,199
Speaker 2: The fact that Amazon is doing aspects of the shit

3399
03:02:56,520 --> 03:02:59,800
Speaker 2: that that mind Bank is doing means that, like it's

3400
03:02:59,840 --> 03:03:02,800
Speaker 2: a matter of time before you see pieces of it,

3401
03:03:02,959 --> 03:03:07,760
Speaker 2: probably like better some of the like less silly parts

3402
03:03:07,800 --> 03:03:10,760
Speaker 2: of it copied by Apple and Google, and some of

3403
03:03:10,840 --> 03:03:13,120
Speaker 2: the worst parts of it copied by guys like Musk. Right,

3404
03:03:13,240 --> 03:03:17,720
Speaker 2: Like it's going to go this and and I will

3405
03:03:17,800 --> 03:03:19,880
Speaker 2: say I don't. I don't think this is a thing

3406
03:03:19,920 --> 03:03:22,240
Speaker 2: to get doomor about think about this like n f

3407
03:03:22,320 --> 03:03:24,800
Speaker 2: T s right, yeah, there, this is this will be

3408
03:03:25,440 --> 03:03:28,040
Speaker 2: It's not the same because there was nothing underlying n

3409
03:03:28,120 --> 03:03:31,440
Speaker 2: FTS and fundamentally the way in which large language models

3410
03:03:31,480 --> 03:03:33,720
Speaker 2: and these other kind of models work, there are uses

3411
03:03:33,760 --> 03:03:36,080
Speaker 2: for them, Like there is a real technology that has

3412
03:03:36,200 --> 03:03:39,640
Speaker 2: utility here. But this sort of flood of we have

3413
03:03:39,879 --> 03:03:42,920
Speaker 2: cloned so and so and we've you know or you

3414
03:03:43,040 --> 03:03:45,640
Speaker 2: know Elon Musk has just put out his new uh

3415
03:03:45,760 --> 03:03:50,400
Speaker 2: fucking grock chat bot or whatever that that is basically

3416
03:03:50,560 --> 03:03:57,040
Speaker 2: him making a meme robot to fucking do Google, like

3417
03:03:57,360 --> 03:04:01,000
Speaker 2: he's he's pissing on Douglas Adams's yes, good name, right,

3418
03:04:01,160 --> 03:04:03,480
Speaker 2: Like that's the that's the ultimate goal of his project.

3419
03:04:04,840 --> 03:04:07,600
Speaker 2: But this shit is a fad, right, Like there are

3420
03:04:07,760 --> 03:04:11,840
Speaker 2: underlying real technological things and uses that will that will

3421
03:04:11,920 --> 03:04:14,280
Speaker 2: eventually some stuff will stand the test of time. But

3422
03:04:14,440 --> 03:04:17,520
Speaker 2: the ship that that this is a warning of is

3423
03:04:17,560 --> 03:04:20,280
Speaker 2: a flood that's going to hit you, but it will recede,

3424
03:04:20,879 --> 03:04:23,400
Speaker 2: just like the apes. Right. We got the wonderful story

3425
03:04:23,440 --> 03:04:25,400
Speaker 2: today that all of the bord Ape Yacht Club.

3426
03:04:25,240 --> 03:04:28,760
Speaker 7: Divers horrible eye infections.

3427
03:04:28,959 --> 03:04:32,480
Speaker 2: Not eye infections. Garrison. They they went to a party

3428
03:04:32,720 --> 03:04:35,880
Speaker 2: that only the boord Ape Yacht Club NFT holders could

3429
03:04:35,920 --> 03:04:39,160
Speaker 2: go to, and the people who through that party outfitted

3430
03:04:39,240 --> 03:04:42,080
Speaker 2: the rave room with UV bulbs that used a kind

3431
03:04:42,120 --> 03:04:46,439
Speaker 2: of disinfecting UV light that slaughterhouses used to clean carcasses,

3432
03:04:46,840 --> 03:04:49,120
Speaker 2: and it gave everyone sunburns on them.

3433
03:04:53,600 --> 03:04:55,000
Speaker 7: So deeply funny.

3434
03:04:55,520 --> 03:04:59,080
Speaker 2: We'll get through this. Something that funny will happen with

3435
03:04:59,200 --> 03:05:02,720
Speaker 2: all of this, but you're gonna get hit by it

3436
03:05:02,840 --> 03:05:05,400
Speaker 2: for a while, Like it's just gonna be everywhere. This is,

3437
03:05:05,600 --> 03:05:09,480
Speaker 2: this is we're watching, you know, we're at that We're

3438
03:05:09,480 --> 03:05:11,480
Speaker 2: at that point in Jurassic Park where you see like

3439
03:05:11,600 --> 03:05:15,400
Speaker 2: the water reverberating. Right, it's coming. And but at the

3440
03:05:15,480 --> 03:05:18,680
Speaker 2: end of the day, don't worry. You know, we are

3441
03:05:18,800 --> 03:05:22,240
Speaker 2: Ian Malcolm. Our leg is broken, we are injured, but

3442
03:05:22,760 --> 03:05:26,080
Speaker 2: we will inexplicably return for the sequel. So it's fine.

3443
03:05:27,720 --> 03:05:29,680
Speaker 7: Well, I think I think that is that is a perfect,

3444
03:05:29,760 --> 03:05:35,640
Speaker 7: a perfect way to wrap this up. Yes, you know,

3445
03:05:35,920 --> 03:05:39,120
Speaker 7: when you're when you're feeling lonely and you're tempted to

3446
03:05:39,200 --> 03:05:42,440
Speaker 7: download the mind bank app to talk to your own self.

3447
03:05:43,080 --> 03:05:46,880
Speaker 7: Just just remember, pull it, pull out a journal, just

3448
03:05:47,520 --> 03:05:49,280
Speaker 7: do literally anything else.

3449
03:05:49,840 --> 03:05:53,280
Speaker 2: Call a friend, you know, make a friend, talk to

3450
03:05:53,360 --> 03:05:57,640
Speaker 2: a stranger. Literally almost almost anything would.

3451
03:05:57,440 --> 03:05:58,120
Speaker 12: Be better for you.

3452
03:06:00,520 --> 03:06:04,200
Speaker 7: Well, for one, will be eagerly awaiting the influx of

3453
03:06:04,480 --> 03:06:07,240
Speaker 7: immortal souls living on the computer.

3454
03:06:08,120 --> 03:06:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited for all of all of the people

3455
03:06:11,560 --> 03:06:12,200
Speaker 2: to reach Heaven.

3456
03:06:13,400 --> 03:06:31,640
Speaker 5: All right, I'm done. Hi everyone, it's me today. It's

3457
03:06:31,760 --> 03:06:36,040
Speaker 5: James and I'm joined by Jake Taylor and Azalea and

3458
03:06:36,120 --> 03:06:38,280
Speaker 5: they're all from the Blue Ridge Community Bail Fund and

3459
03:06:38,520 --> 03:06:40,640
Speaker 5: we've asked him to come on today. We're recording this

3460
03:06:40,800 --> 03:06:44,440
Speaker 5: on what's it now, the sixth of November twenty twenty three,

3461
03:06:45,120 --> 03:06:47,000
Speaker 5: And the reason we wanted to talk about bail funds

3462
03:06:47,040 --> 03:06:50,360
Speaker 5: today was that we're almost exactly a year out from

3463
03:06:50,400 --> 03:06:53,960
Speaker 5: the election, and we're also in the middle of a

3464
03:06:54,040 --> 03:06:58,800
Speaker 5: massive protest movement against the Israeli bombing of Palestine. I

3465
03:06:58,959 --> 03:07:02,560
Speaker 5: tended a Free Palestine protest today. Lots of you will

3466
03:07:02,560 --> 03:07:07,440
Speaker 5: have attended them over the weekend. Normally, in this kind

3467
03:07:07,440 --> 03:07:10,600
Speaker 5: of current political climate, when when people protest about things,

3468
03:07:10,800 --> 03:07:15,240
Speaker 5: or when there are elections, leads to an increased protest movement.

3469
03:07:15,240 --> 03:07:18,200
Speaker 5: Which generally leads to more state clap down on the

3470
03:07:18,200 --> 03:07:21,400
Speaker 5: protest movement, which means people getting arrested, which means people

3471
03:07:21,440 --> 03:07:24,280
Speaker 5: getting bailed out. And we have like a year until

3472
03:07:24,320 --> 03:07:26,880
Speaker 5: the election, so it's a good time to maybe talk

3473
03:07:26,920 --> 03:07:29,440
Speaker 5: about organizing. To hear from people who have been doing

3474
03:07:29,560 --> 03:07:32,680
Speaker 5: this for a while. Some of you will remember Bailfront

3475
03:07:32,720 --> 03:07:34,400
Speaker 5: for twenty twenty, some of you wan't. Some of you

3476
03:07:35,160 --> 03:07:38,400
Speaker 5: will not be in countries where this is a relevant concept,

3477
03:07:38,520 --> 03:07:40,200
Speaker 5: But I feel think it's a very important one to

3478
03:07:40,280 --> 03:07:43,600
Speaker 5: talk about. So I'd like each of you guys to

3479
03:07:43,680 --> 03:07:46,600
Speaker 5: introduce yourselves if you could, I can get started.

3480
03:07:47,720 --> 03:07:50,480
Speaker 13: I'm Jake Wiener. This is my second time on I

3481
03:07:50,680 --> 03:07:54,000
Speaker 13: was previously on talking about a CBP one app and

3482
03:07:54,240 --> 03:07:57,600
Speaker 13: immigrant surveillance of the border. My day job, I'm a

3483
03:07:57,640 --> 03:08:01,280
Speaker 13: lawyer at the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, d C.

3484
03:08:01,720 --> 03:08:04,720
Speaker 13: I'm also a UVA law grab. I've lived in Charlottesville

3485
03:08:04,920 --> 03:08:08,240
Speaker 13: on and off since twenty seventeen, and I've been on

3486
03:08:08,360 --> 03:08:10,600
Speaker 13: the board of the Bail Fund for about a year

3487
03:08:10,600 --> 03:08:11,080
Speaker 13: and a half now.

3488
03:08:11,680 --> 03:08:14,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. My name is Taylor and I've lived in Charleston

3489
03:08:14,320 --> 03:08:17,119
Speaker 1: pretty much my whole life for work, I'm a carpenter

3490
03:08:17,320 --> 03:08:21,520
Speaker 1: and I've been on the bail fund here since twenty twenty,

3491
03:08:22,680 --> 03:08:24,400
Speaker 1: couple of months. I wasn't here for the start, but

3492
03:08:25,240 --> 03:08:27,600
Speaker 1: joined quickly after it got founded.

3493
03:08:27,800 --> 03:08:32,959
Speaker 17: And I think, yeah, I'm Azalea. I'm a two all

3494
03:08:33,200 --> 03:08:37,320
Speaker 17: at uba law. I'm originally from Chicago, grew up in

3495
03:08:37,440 --> 03:08:43,080
Speaker 17: a very proud Mexican Mexican American community. I have lived

3496
03:08:43,120 --> 03:08:48,280
Speaker 17: in the Pacific, Northwest, North Carolina, most recently DC, so

3497
03:08:48,840 --> 03:08:51,360
Speaker 17: various cities and places throughout the country.

3498
03:08:52,120 --> 03:08:55,760
Speaker 5: Nice, excellent, We've got so I think to start off

3499
03:08:55,800 --> 03:08:57,800
Speaker 5: with just in case, we've got folks who are not

3500
03:08:57,920 --> 03:09:00,400
Speaker 5: in the US. So maybe I'm not for me, can

3501
03:09:00,720 --> 03:09:03,200
Speaker 5: one if you explain to us what bail is?

3502
03:09:04,000 --> 03:09:04,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3503
03:09:06,080 --> 03:09:09,040
Speaker 13: So, in the American legal system, we have a pretty

3504
03:09:09,120 --> 03:09:13,240
Speaker 13: unique concept, which is, after you're arrested for a crime,

3505
03:09:14,320 --> 03:09:18,240
Speaker 13: or if you're detained as an immigrant, are they going

3506
03:09:18,320 --> 03:09:21,640
Speaker 13: to go in front of a magistrate who will decide

3507
03:09:22,000 --> 03:09:24,880
Speaker 13: whether you get out of jail right now or whether

3508
03:09:25,000 --> 03:09:28,400
Speaker 13: you have to wait. And most countries in the world,

3509
03:09:28,720 --> 03:09:31,280
Speaker 13: that's surely a question of how likely you are to

3510
03:09:31,320 --> 03:09:34,040
Speaker 13: show up to court and how dangerous you might be

3511
03:09:34,120 --> 03:09:36,520
Speaker 13: to the community. Right obviously they're not going to let

3512
03:09:36,560 --> 03:09:40,880
Speaker 13: out someone who's just like killed eight people. That seems

3513
03:09:40,920 --> 03:09:43,200
Speaker 13: like it might be a little unsafe. In America, we

3514
03:09:43,320 --> 03:09:47,360
Speaker 13: do things a little differently. In almost every state and

3515
03:09:47,400 --> 03:09:52,720
Speaker 13: almost every municipality, we have cash bail, which means when

3516
03:09:52,720 --> 03:09:54,680
Speaker 13: you go in front of a magistrate, they will decide

3517
03:09:54,720 --> 03:09:57,840
Speaker 13: how much money you need to pay to get out

3518
03:09:58,160 --> 03:10:02,200
Speaker 13: of jail. And theoretically this is to ensure that you

3519
03:10:02,240 --> 03:10:04,959
Speaker 13: show up to court. So when you go to court,

3520
03:10:05,280 --> 03:10:07,200
Speaker 13: your case gets finalized, then you're going to get that

3521
03:10:07,280 --> 03:10:12,200
Speaker 13: bail money back. For most offenses, bail is really low.

3522
03:10:12,320 --> 03:10:15,560
Speaker 13: We're talking about five hundred one thousand up to maybe

3523
03:10:15,600 --> 03:10:22,360
Speaker 13: five thousand dollars for misdemeanors well of the nonviolent felonies. Now, obviously,

3524
03:10:22,440 --> 03:10:25,279
Speaker 13: if you are a person of means, that's really easy

3525
03:10:25,680 --> 03:10:28,039
Speaker 13: to come up with some money, have a family member

3526
03:10:28,120 --> 03:10:31,000
Speaker 13: come post it, or to go get a bail bondsman.

3527
03:10:31,040 --> 03:10:33,120
Speaker 13: If you go to a bail bondsman, they are going

3528
03:10:33,160 --> 03:10:35,200
Speaker 13: to charge you about ten percent of the cost of

3529
03:10:35,280 --> 03:10:38,240
Speaker 13: your bonds. So if you have a five thousand dollars bond,

3530
03:10:38,280 --> 03:10:40,080
Speaker 13: that's about five hundred bucks. You're not going to get

3531
03:10:40,080 --> 03:10:41,760
Speaker 13: that money back. But then you don't have anything out

3532
03:10:41,800 --> 03:10:46,199
Speaker 13: of pocket. But for a lot of people, the criminal

3533
03:10:46,280 --> 03:10:49,200
Speaker 13: legal system mostly arrests people for crimes of poverty and

3534
03:10:49,240 --> 03:10:51,600
Speaker 13: drug addiction. Is that's the majority of people who go

3535
03:10:51,640 --> 03:10:54,680
Speaker 13: through the system. They do not have the money to

3536
03:10:54,760 --> 03:10:57,720
Speaker 13: go get a bail bondsman, which is so we regularly

3537
03:10:57,920 --> 03:11:00,920
Speaker 13: get calls from people who don't have one hundred and

3538
03:11:00,959 --> 03:11:04,800
Speaker 13: five hundred dollars to get out of jail. That's where

3539
03:11:04,840 --> 03:11:07,520
Speaker 13: the bail fund comes in. We pay people's bombs, no

3540
03:11:07,680 --> 03:11:08,360
Speaker 13: questions asked.

3541
03:11:10,000 --> 03:11:13,080
Speaker 17: Nice I'd also like to add that, in addition to

3542
03:11:13,600 --> 03:11:18,240
Speaker 17: a lot of drug charges, a lot of ways that

3543
03:11:18,560 --> 03:11:21,840
Speaker 17: people end up in jail is through traffic stops and

3544
03:11:22,040 --> 03:11:26,600
Speaker 17: traffic violations. Something as minor as a back tail light

3545
03:11:27,360 --> 03:11:31,680
Speaker 17: not being fully lit, and that then gives officers lace

3546
03:11:31,879 --> 03:11:35,360
Speaker 17: an excuse to proceed from there. So something as simple

3547
03:11:35,440 --> 03:11:37,320
Speaker 17: as you know, you didn't get to go to the

3548
03:11:37,400 --> 03:11:42,000
Speaker 17: mechanic to have your back tail light fixed, can lead

3549
03:11:42,040 --> 03:11:45,320
Speaker 17: to all sorts of issues down the road of ending

3550
03:11:45,400 --> 03:11:48,520
Speaker 17: up to jail. Unfortunately in this wonderful country.

3551
03:11:49,160 --> 03:11:52,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's certainly pretty much to deathline.

3552
03:11:52,720 --> 03:11:55,000
Speaker 5: It's good that we have you guys to help kind

3553
03:11:55,040 --> 03:11:58,360
Speaker 5: of while we're working on having a better system, I

3554
03:11:58,440 --> 03:11:59,879
Speaker 5: guess we can make this one a little bit less,

3555
03:12:00,440 --> 03:12:03,400
Speaker 5: especially for people who are not people of means. So

3556
03:12:04,680 --> 03:12:08,680
Speaker 5: with your bail fund, perhaps you could explain, like, obviously

3557
03:12:08,760 --> 03:12:10,840
Speaker 5: some of those better amounts you's posted, even the once

3558
03:12:10,920 --> 03:12:13,440
Speaker 5: you said that were relatively low, that's still a lot

3559
03:12:13,520 --> 03:12:17,000
Speaker 5: of money. So you guys have had the bail fund

3560
03:12:17,160 --> 03:12:20,400
Speaker 5: for three and a bit years now, how did you

3561
03:12:20,680 --> 03:12:24,040
Speaker 5: go about starting a bail fund? And then I guess

3562
03:12:24,440 --> 03:12:26,720
Speaker 5: what other different roles that EATV plays within it.

3563
03:12:26,840 --> 03:12:29,760
Speaker 1: Now, sure I can talk about a little bit how

3564
03:12:29,800 --> 03:12:33,280
Speaker 1: it got started. It got started in twenty twenty. I'm

3565
03:12:33,320 --> 03:12:36,800
Speaker 1: not one hundred percent sure, but it's about the spring

3566
03:12:37,040 --> 03:12:39,080
Speaker 1: or the summer, and it was pretty much right around

3567
03:12:39,480 --> 03:12:41,800
Speaker 1: the time, you know, George Floyd got murdered and all

3568
03:12:41,840 --> 03:12:44,400
Speaker 1: the protests was going on. It was started by a

3569
03:12:44,480 --> 03:12:47,920
Speaker 1: group of four or five law students at UVA, and

3570
03:12:48,160 --> 03:12:51,040
Speaker 1: since the bounding they've all graduated and moved on to

3571
03:12:51,120 --> 03:12:54,480
Speaker 1: other things. But that was the time when it was

3572
03:12:54,680 --> 03:12:56,760
Speaker 1: it was relatively easy. There was a lot of people

3573
03:12:56,800 --> 03:12:58,680
Speaker 1: donating money, so we were able to raise quite a

3574
03:12:58,720 --> 03:13:02,360
Speaker 1: bit of money at that time, and the way the

3575
03:13:02,440 --> 03:13:05,400
Speaker 1: bonds work is that we paid the bond and then

3576
03:13:06,080 --> 03:13:08,280
Speaker 1: as the case as the person goes through the court

3577
03:13:08,360 --> 03:13:11,080
Speaker 1: system and the case gets finalized, money gets returned to

3578
03:13:11,200 --> 03:13:13,680
Speaker 1: us and we're able to use that money to post

3579
03:13:13,760 --> 03:13:17,879
Speaker 1: bonds again. And so with even a relatively small amount

3580
03:13:18,080 --> 03:13:20,760
Speaker 1: I believe we have now we have forty thousand dollars,

3581
03:13:20,959 --> 03:13:23,880
Speaker 1: we're able to post a lot of bonds. Up to

3582
03:13:24,240 --> 03:13:27,280
Speaker 1: nearly two hundred thousand dollars so far in bonds posted,

3583
03:13:27,879 --> 03:13:30,720
Speaker 1: and so that's like it's a self sustained process. Like

3584
03:13:31,000 --> 03:13:33,480
Speaker 1: it can sometimes take up to a year to get

3585
03:13:33,520 --> 03:13:37,440
Speaker 1: the money back, but instead of you know, paying the

3586
03:13:37,480 --> 03:13:39,840
Speaker 1: money and it being gone forever with the bail bondsmen like,

3587
03:13:39,879 --> 03:13:42,600
Speaker 1: we're able to continuously do this and get a lot

3588
03:13:42,680 --> 03:13:44,000
Speaker 1: done with a little bit of money.

3589
03:13:44,320 --> 03:13:46,920
Speaker 5: Relatively Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You can

3590
03:13:47,200 --> 03:13:51,480
Speaker 5: keep it moving through the system. I guess. So when

3591
03:13:51,600 --> 03:13:54,680
Speaker 5: you guys, like then you said you had that forty grand, right,

3592
03:13:54,720 --> 03:13:56,400
Speaker 5: where did that come from? How how did you guys

3593
03:13:56,440 --> 03:13:57,440
Speaker 5: obtain that forty grand?

3594
03:13:58,600 --> 03:14:01,440
Speaker 1: Just donations from individual Well? Pretty much? Yeah, I think,

3595
03:14:01,720 --> 03:14:04,960
Speaker 1: like I think there were some larger donations in the

3596
03:14:05,080 --> 03:14:07,960
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars range from organizations at the time, but

3597
03:14:08,280 --> 03:14:10,480
Speaker 1: and then since then it's kind of trickled in, you know,

3598
03:14:10,680 --> 03:14:14,560
Speaker 1: and I think I've donated my own money sometimes it's.

3599
03:14:15,800 --> 03:14:18,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's very important thing. So perhaps you could

3600
03:14:19,000 --> 03:14:20,680
Speaker 5: can you give us a do we get it like

3601
03:14:20,760 --> 03:14:22,000
Speaker 5: get it in at the top of the episode, Is

3602
03:14:22,040 --> 03:14:23,840
Speaker 5: there a link where people can donate they'd like to.

3603
03:14:24,800 --> 03:14:29,240
Speaker 13: Yeah, we absolutely need your donations. Bail funds around the

3604
03:14:29,280 --> 03:14:32,200
Speaker 13: country have had fundraising dry up, and right now we

3605
03:14:32,280 --> 03:14:34,160
Speaker 13: have a wait list, like people are in jail because

3606
03:14:34,200 --> 03:14:37,120
Speaker 13: we don't have enough money. So please donate to us.

3607
03:14:37,600 --> 03:14:42,039
Speaker 13: We're on PayPal at PayPal, dot me e slash Blue

3608
03:14:42,080 --> 03:14:45,600
Speaker 13: Ridge Bail. We're also on gofund me at Blue Ridge

3609
03:14:45,600 --> 03:14:49,720
Speaker 13: Community Bail Fund, and that information is on our Instagram,

3610
03:14:50,160 --> 03:14:54,320
Speaker 13: which is Ridge Bail Nice at Ridge Bail Perfect.

3611
03:14:55,040 --> 03:14:57,800
Speaker 5: So I think you were talking about that, like a

3612
03:14:57,840 --> 03:15:00,560
Speaker 5: little bail funds to have dried up since twenty twenty,

3613
03:15:00,640 --> 03:15:02,440
Speaker 5: and I know that, like I've seen that in a

3614
03:15:02,480 --> 03:15:06,040
Speaker 5: lot of places. So there was this real like growth

3615
03:15:06,080 --> 03:15:09,360
Speaker 5: in organizing in twenty twenty, right, and then obviously there's

3616
03:15:09,440 --> 03:15:13,120
Speaker 5: been like it just people have burnt out, people have

3617
03:15:13,240 --> 03:15:15,320
Speaker 5: been incarcerated in a number of things. It's made that

3618
03:15:15,400 --> 03:15:17,760
Speaker 5: movement hard to sustain. That we don't necessarily need to

3619
03:15:17,800 --> 03:15:19,400
Speaker 5: go into. But what I do want to talk about

3620
03:15:19,480 --> 03:15:21,440
Speaker 5: is like, how you guys have been able to sustain

3621
03:15:21,640 --> 03:15:24,240
Speaker 5: your bail fund and keep helping people out and doing

3622
03:15:24,280 --> 03:15:27,640
Speaker 5: this important work. So perhaps you could explain the different

3623
03:15:27,760 --> 03:15:30,680
Speaker 5: roles that people play in a bail funded People are

3624
03:15:30,720 --> 03:15:32,920
Speaker 5: thinking like, oh, this needs to exist in my community,

3625
03:15:33,000 --> 03:15:35,080
Speaker 5: Like what roles do you have? What kinds of people

3626
03:15:35,160 --> 03:15:35,560
Speaker 5: do you need?

3627
03:15:36,600 --> 03:15:39,160
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, I think you know a lot of bail

3628
03:15:39,200 --> 03:15:42,720
Speaker 1: funds are can be stressured differently. But the way ours works,

3629
03:15:43,080 --> 03:15:45,240
Speaker 1: and we're relatively small, and the way of our works

3630
03:15:45,280 --> 03:15:47,720
Speaker 1: is we have a group of six of us that's

3631
03:15:47,760 --> 03:15:50,439
Speaker 1: on the actual board and we handle like the logistics.

3632
03:15:51,840 --> 03:15:54,880
Speaker 1: So I'm the chair, Jakes the treasurer azially as a

3633
03:15:55,320 --> 03:15:56,959
Speaker 1: board member of large but we all kind of share

3634
03:15:56,959 --> 03:16:00,600
Speaker 1: the same responsibilities, which is we answer the phone, which

3635
03:16:00,680 --> 03:16:03,560
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest parts when people call us

3636
03:16:03,680 --> 03:16:06,960
Speaker 1: either from the jail or from the street, like family

3637
03:16:07,000 --> 03:16:10,600
Speaker 1: members and someone in jail. And then when we get

3638
03:16:10,600 --> 03:16:13,680
Speaker 1: a call, you know, we'll we look up the case,

3639
03:16:14,360 --> 03:16:17,680
Speaker 1: call the jail to find out and then then with

3640
03:16:17,760 --> 03:16:19,880
Speaker 1: the next step is posting the bond, and so we

3641
03:16:20,040 --> 03:16:22,280
Speaker 1: have a list of volunteers that their job is just

3642
03:16:22,400 --> 03:16:25,400
Speaker 1: to go to physically go to the jail with the

3643
03:16:25,520 --> 03:16:29,600
Speaker 1: cash to post the bond, and sometimes you know one

3644
03:16:29,600 --> 03:16:33,360
Speaker 1: of the board members will do there, so so yeah,

3645
03:16:33,400 --> 03:16:37,720
Speaker 1: it can be yeah. And then as far as like

3646
03:16:38,000 --> 03:16:40,400
Speaker 1: keeping the organization running well, like I said, all the

3647
03:16:40,440 --> 03:16:43,040
Speaker 1: original board members are gone and I've been the longest

3648
03:16:43,080 --> 03:16:47,080
Speaker 1: running member, but we do have a lot of law students,

3649
03:16:47,120 --> 03:16:50,080
Speaker 1: like half our board as law students, and that presents

3650
03:16:50,160 --> 03:16:52,520
Speaker 1: own challenges because they graduate and leave, but it also

3651
03:16:52,720 --> 03:16:56,880
Speaker 1: like brings fresh people into the organization. And then you know, me,

3652
03:16:57,080 --> 03:16:59,480
Speaker 1: I live in charlesvillem here forever, which helps kind of

3653
03:17:00,120 --> 03:17:01,480
Speaker 1: you with the institutional knowledge.

3654
03:17:02,360 --> 03:17:04,800
Speaker 5: Sure. Yeah, having that longevity I think is important.

3655
03:17:05,959 --> 03:17:09,680
Speaker 17: And Melissa, Jake and Taylor have done an incredible job

3656
03:17:10,120 --> 03:17:12,920
Speaker 17: sustaining the bail fund, and those of us who are

3657
03:17:12,959 --> 03:17:15,040
Speaker 17: law students just kind of come in and out and

3658
03:17:15,440 --> 03:17:18,280
Speaker 17: try to support the best we can and the limited

3659
03:17:18,360 --> 03:17:22,039
Speaker 17: time that we're here. Those of us who leave.

3660
03:17:22,000 --> 03:17:25,440
Speaker 5: After the three years, yeah, I'm sure it's still very

3661
03:17:25,440 --> 03:17:28,760
Speaker 5: important to have all those people on your time energy commitment.

3662
03:17:29,120 --> 03:17:33,800
Speaker 5: So like just by existing, right, the bail fund kind

3663
03:17:33,840 --> 03:17:36,280
Speaker 5: of points out that this is a system that is

3664
03:17:36,400 --> 03:17:39,920
Speaker 5: broken or that it certainly doesn't work to serve people.

3665
03:17:40,120 --> 03:17:42,480
Speaker 5: So perhaps we could explain a little bit of that,

3666
03:17:42,840 --> 03:17:47,080
Speaker 5: Like in the absence of a bail fund, how do

3667
03:17:47,240 --> 03:17:49,600
Speaker 5: things look for people who are incarcerated?

3668
03:17:49,680 --> 03:17:49,800
Speaker 13: Right?

3669
03:17:49,879 --> 03:17:52,160
Speaker 5: Like what you spoke a little bit about bail bondsman,

3670
03:17:52,240 --> 03:17:54,320
Speaker 5: but like perhaps you could talk about like the amount

3671
03:17:54,400 --> 03:17:57,040
Speaker 5: of bails and people would post for Oh, it would

3672
03:17:57,080 --> 03:18:00,400
Speaker 5: be the amount of how it's calculated, but it would

3673
03:18:00,440 --> 03:18:03,120
Speaker 5: be and like what that would mean in terms of

3674
03:18:03,200 --> 03:18:05,960
Speaker 5: people being in prison, and like how long they might

3675
03:18:06,000 --> 03:18:08,360
Speaker 5: expect to stay in prison just because they couldn't afford

3676
03:18:08,400 --> 03:18:13,400
Speaker 5: that bail being incacerated. I should not say prison, I guess, yeah,

3677
03:18:13,440 --> 03:18:14,800
Speaker 5: folks are in jail. Yeah.

3678
03:18:15,680 --> 03:18:20,000
Speaker 13: So the one of the cruelest parts of the American

3679
03:18:20,080 --> 03:18:23,000
Speaker 13: criminal justice system from an all legal system there's not

3680
03:18:23,080 --> 03:18:27,560
Speaker 13: much justice, is that your freedom is contingent on having wealth.

3681
03:18:28,640 --> 03:18:32,840
Speaker 13: So bail is for most offenses, as I've said, is

3682
03:18:33,040 --> 03:18:36,560
Speaker 13: quite low, and it's very not only is it they're

3683
03:18:36,680 --> 03:18:40,760
Speaker 13: difficult to post if you don't have anyone, but it's

3684
03:18:40,800 --> 03:18:43,840
Speaker 13: also you know, people are locked up because they don't

3685
03:18:43,879 --> 03:18:47,520
Speaker 13: have five hundred dollars. I've gotten calls from people who

3686
03:18:48,120 --> 03:18:50,520
Speaker 13: have literally said, I have I don't have one hundred dollars,

3687
03:18:50,560 --> 03:18:53,560
Speaker 13: and I don't have anyone on the outside, and I've

3688
03:18:53,600 --> 03:18:57,120
Speaker 13: been sitting in jail for three months or sometimes for

3689
03:18:57,200 --> 03:18:59,280
Speaker 13: an offense that when they go to court was maybe

3690
03:18:59,320 --> 03:19:03,080
Speaker 13: only a month of jail time. People routinely will spend

3691
03:19:03,680 --> 03:19:08,040
Speaker 13: six months a year in jail for offenses that their

3692
03:19:08,080 --> 03:19:10,960
Speaker 13: total amount of jail time was a couple months, and

3693
03:19:11,520 --> 03:19:14,400
Speaker 13: you don't get compensated for that. Like if you spend

3694
03:19:14,440 --> 03:19:17,280
Speaker 13: a year in jail for which means that you did

3695
03:19:17,320 --> 03:19:19,440
Speaker 13: eleven months that you didn't have to do, the state

3696
03:19:19,520 --> 03:19:22,000
Speaker 13: doesn't like cut you a check. That's like, hey, we

3697
03:19:23,120 --> 03:19:28,480
Speaker 13: destroyed your life for eleven months for no reason. And

3698
03:19:28,600 --> 03:19:30,440
Speaker 13: I think one of the things that is just like

3699
03:19:30,520 --> 03:19:33,000
Speaker 13: the most heartbreaking about doing this work, but is also

3700
03:19:34,640 --> 03:19:37,920
Speaker 13: sometimes like it makes you feel really good, is the

3701
03:19:38,120 --> 03:19:42,480
Speaker 13: way that caging people just like ruins their lives. It's

3702
03:19:42,520 --> 03:19:46,240
Speaker 13: incredibly hard to talk to people in jail from the outside.

3703
03:19:46,640 --> 03:19:50,320
Speaker 13: It's very expensive, So when you're in jail, you are

3704
03:19:50,400 --> 03:19:53,199
Speaker 13: not talking. You're like not talking to your loved ones,

3705
03:19:54,040 --> 03:19:57,680
Speaker 13: you're not able to sustain a job, you're probably losing housing.

3706
03:19:59,040 --> 03:20:00,960
Speaker 13: It's it's destroying and you know the life that you

3707
03:20:01,040 --> 03:20:05,240
Speaker 13: have on the outside. But the flip side is like

3708
03:20:05,280 --> 03:20:07,360
Speaker 13: we've gotten calls from folks who have said like, hey,

3709
03:20:07,440 --> 03:20:11,320
Speaker 13: you bonded me out and now I got a new job,

3710
03:20:11,600 --> 03:20:13,800
Speaker 13: I got a new place to live, like I'm doing great,

3711
03:20:13,840 --> 03:20:17,400
Speaker 13: which is incredibly meaningful. And Taylor can probably talk a

3712
03:20:17,400 --> 03:20:19,720
Speaker 13: little more about what being in jail is.

3713
03:20:19,800 --> 03:20:23,200
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, yeah, thanks seek. So I think one of

3714
03:20:23,280 --> 03:20:25,800
Speaker 1: the things that like really drew me to this work

3715
03:20:26,080 --> 03:20:29,000
Speaker 1: was like, I'm an abolitionist and when I was younger,

3716
03:20:29,080 --> 03:20:32,320
Speaker 1: I spent two years in jail. I was twenty three,

3717
03:20:32,560 --> 03:20:34,360
Speaker 1: twenty three or twenty five. I was in jail for

3718
03:20:34,480 --> 03:20:39,720
Speaker 1: selling drugs. And I think, like, yeah, I really that's

3719
03:20:39,800 --> 03:20:42,320
Speaker 1: like something that really motivates me now to do this stuff.

3720
03:20:44,240 --> 03:20:47,840
Speaker 1: It's it's crazy, like Jake said, yeah, we've had people

3721
03:20:47,959 --> 03:20:50,360
Speaker 1: that one guy called and thought that we were a

3722
03:20:50,400 --> 03:20:53,680
Speaker 1: bail bondsman and then found out like on the phone

3723
03:20:53,720 --> 03:20:55,920
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, I didn't know you guys like would

3724
03:20:55,920 --> 03:20:58,720
Speaker 1: pay my bond for free. It was a five hundred

3725
03:20:58,720 --> 03:21:00,240
Speaker 1: dollars bond, so he would have had to pay two

3726
03:21:00,280 --> 03:21:02,800
Speaker 1: dollars to a bail bondsman and he didn't call us

3727
03:21:02,879 --> 03:21:06,840
Speaker 1: for several days because he thought he has fifty dollars.

3728
03:21:06,959 --> 03:21:09,560
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, I like, it's you know,

3729
03:21:09,720 --> 03:21:12,760
Speaker 1: we spend all this time like thinking about like leftist

3730
03:21:12,760 --> 03:21:15,640
Speaker 1: stuff and like, but it's it's eye opening to see

3731
03:21:15,680 --> 03:21:18,360
Speaker 1: people that are stuck in jail like for lack of

3732
03:21:18,440 --> 03:21:21,400
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars, you know, like and that's it. They

3733
03:21:21,440 --> 03:21:23,880
Speaker 1: can't get out, and so I think, yeah, like and

3734
03:21:23,959 --> 03:21:26,680
Speaker 1: then sometimes people call us and they're like, I have nobody.

3735
03:21:26,800 --> 03:21:30,160
Speaker 1: There's nobody out outside that can help them. So it's

3736
03:21:31,040 --> 03:21:33,640
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. It is upsetting, Like yeah, it's

3737
03:21:33,720 --> 03:21:36,120
Speaker 1: like crazy to see this like system set up like this,

3738
03:21:36,360 --> 03:21:38,080
Speaker 1: but it's like it's one of the things that like

3739
03:21:38,240 --> 03:21:40,560
Speaker 1: really motivates me to keep doing this work. Is like, man,

3740
03:21:40,560 --> 03:21:44,120
Speaker 1: it's so rewarding when you get those calls. And and

3741
03:21:44,280 --> 03:21:45,880
Speaker 1: also I think to expand as something that Jake said

3742
03:21:45,879 --> 03:21:50,800
Speaker 1: about the bail system, it's like it's, uh, the magistrates.

3743
03:21:50,840 --> 03:21:52,760
Speaker 1: When you go in front of the magistry to get

3744
03:21:52,800 --> 03:21:55,880
Speaker 1: the bond, there's no the Mattertates have no oversight, they're

3745
03:21:55,920 --> 03:21:58,920
Speaker 1: not elected it's you know, we kind of just joke

3746
03:21:59,080 --> 03:22:02,720
Speaker 1: like it's a vibe system, Like they just an issue

3747
03:22:02,760 --> 03:22:04,800
Speaker 1: of bond for however much they feel like. And so

3748
03:22:04,920 --> 03:22:06,360
Speaker 1: this is where you're really going to see like the

3749
03:22:07,120 --> 03:22:10,720
Speaker 1: structural racism and like the classes and really come crashing

3750
03:22:10,800 --> 03:22:14,080
Speaker 1: down on people, you know, in front of this system.

3751
03:22:14,200 --> 03:22:17,600
Speaker 13: So yeah, one thing that I'd like to add, because

3752
03:22:17,600 --> 03:22:21,199
Speaker 13: I think people don't really realize, is so a magistrate

3753
03:22:21,320 --> 03:22:24,400
Speaker 13: is working under a judge. They're basically a judge is

3754
03:22:24,640 --> 03:22:27,200
Speaker 13: like an appointed position or elected. You have to be

3755
03:22:27,240 --> 03:22:28,960
Speaker 13: a lawyer, you have to have a fair amount of

3756
03:22:29,000 --> 03:22:33,160
Speaker 13: legal education. Your magistrate is just some dude, like the

3757
03:22:33,240 --> 03:22:37,680
Speaker 13: most some dude person you've ever met. They have no

3758
03:22:37,840 --> 03:22:41,520
Speaker 13: training required, They have no like legal training requirements. Many

3759
03:22:41,600 --> 03:22:44,640
Speaker 13: of them are like fresh out of the army maybe

3760
03:22:44,800 --> 03:22:47,440
Speaker 13: like maybe went to college, maybe didn't. So you're talking

3761
03:22:47,440 --> 03:22:50,960
Speaker 13: about someone who has no particular expertise in evaluating people,

3762
03:22:51,840 --> 03:22:54,840
Speaker 13: looking at someone for a few minutes and deciding how

3763
03:22:55,000 --> 03:22:57,920
Speaker 13: dangerous they are to the community and making up in

3764
03:22:58,040 --> 03:23:00,880
Speaker 13: their head how much that person can probably pay to

3765
03:23:00,920 --> 03:23:01,280
Speaker 13: get out.

3766
03:23:02,600 --> 03:23:02,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3767
03:23:03,879 --> 03:23:08,840
Speaker 17: I spent the summer my first year after or summer

3768
03:23:08,879 --> 03:23:12,560
Speaker 17: after first year of law school at the Lynchburg Public

3769
03:23:12,640 --> 03:23:14,920
Speaker 17: Defender Office, So I got to review a lot of

3770
03:23:15,120 --> 03:23:19,359
Speaker 17: bodycam footage and the way it worked with the magistrate

3771
03:23:19,400 --> 03:23:22,400
Speaker 17: a lot of the times was that a police officer

3772
03:23:22,440 --> 03:23:25,680
Speaker 17: would give a report, an incident report, read it aloud

3773
03:23:26,160 --> 03:23:29,000
Speaker 17: to swear them in. They'd say, this is true, this

3774
03:23:29,200 --> 03:23:32,680
Speaker 17: is what happened. They would give their full report, and

3775
03:23:32,800 --> 03:23:35,840
Speaker 17: basically that's how it was determined whether bail would be

3776
03:23:36,040 --> 03:23:39,080
Speaker 17: or how much bail would be set to. It was

3777
03:23:40,160 --> 03:23:43,480
Speaker 17: heartbreaking and it was very it happened very quickly, like

3778
03:23:43,560 --> 03:23:47,120
Speaker 17: it was all based on the police officer's report and

3779
03:23:47,320 --> 03:23:50,800
Speaker 17: what they just decided to spew in five minutes or less.

3780
03:23:52,160 --> 03:23:56,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's yeah, it's it's a pretty messed up to system.

3781
03:23:56,040 --> 03:23:58,720
Speaker 5: I think some states have like bail guidelines, right, if

3782
03:23:58,720 --> 03:24:01,240
Speaker 5: I'm not mistaken, like I think California has like you know,

3783
03:24:01,320 --> 03:24:03,520
Speaker 5: if you did this, if if you're accused of this offense,

3784
03:24:03,600 --> 03:24:06,320
Speaker 5: and then your bail goes in this bucket and then

3785
03:24:06,959 --> 03:24:09,600
Speaker 5: you know if it adds up depending on offenses or

3786
03:24:09,640 --> 03:24:10,800
Speaker 5: conspiracy or whatever.

3787
03:24:11,680 --> 03:24:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. Like the thing about

3788
03:24:14,160 --> 03:24:17,160
Speaker 1: bail is this different like in every state on some

3789
03:24:17,480 --> 03:24:22,119
Speaker 1: states you know have maybe like more progressive quote unquote, yeah,

3790
03:24:23,320 --> 03:24:25,320
Speaker 1: but some some have some don't.

3791
03:24:25,360 --> 03:24:30,200
Speaker 5: And yeah, yeah, I was going to say, like California

3792
03:24:30,240 --> 03:24:33,080
Speaker 5: has a reputation being progressive. San Diego has charged some

3793
03:24:33,160 --> 03:24:35,440
Speaker 5: of the most insanely high bail amounts I've ever seen.

3794
03:24:36,920 --> 03:24:39,960
Speaker 17: Although we all aspire to do what Illinois just did

3795
03:24:40,320 --> 03:24:43,200
Speaker 17: at the beginning of this year, which was to eliminate

3796
03:24:44,560 --> 03:24:47,920
Speaker 17: bail altogether, it would just or cash bail altogether. It

3797
03:24:47,920 --> 03:24:53,000
Speaker 17: would just be based on whether you can be released

3798
03:24:53,080 --> 03:24:53,200
Speaker 17: or not.

3799
03:24:53,600 --> 03:24:56,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that would be nice. It is just to be

3800
03:24:56,760 --> 03:25:00,280
Speaker 5: clear that the bail isn't like, it's not like the

3801
03:25:00,720 --> 03:25:04,600
Speaker 5: state keeps the money unless you don't show up. Is

3802
03:25:04,640 --> 03:25:07,680
Speaker 5: it a revenue generator for state? Show? It's just purely

3803
03:25:07,760 --> 03:25:09,880
Speaker 5: like a sort of punitive thing that they think has

3804
03:25:09,920 --> 03:25:11,920
Speaker 5: some kind of value in that regard.

3805
03:25:12,560 --> 03:25:16,080
Speaker 13: It's purely punitive. The idea truly is to make sure

3806
03:25:16,160 --> 03:25:19,280
Speaker 13: that you show up to your court case. And in

3807
03:25:19,400 --> 03:25:22,520
Speaker 13: the US it's often used as a proxy for dangerousness.

3808
03:25:23,280 --> 03:25:25,920
Speaker 13: So when you're go in front of a magistrate, you

3809
03:25:26,000 --> 03:25:28,640
Speaker 13: got three options. Number one is you get out on

3810
03:25:28,720 --> 03:25:31,240
Speaker 13: personal recognisance. If you're a nice white boy like me,

3811
03:25:31,680 --> 03:25:34,000
Speaker 13: you're getting personal recognizance almost certainly.

3812
03:25:34,480 --> 03:25:34,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3813
03:25:35,959 --> 03:25:38,920
Speaker 13: Option two is you're going to have to pay cash bail,

3814
03:25:39,440 --> 03:25:42,760
Speaker 13: and that amount is decided by the magistrate, as you said,

3815
03:25:42,879 --> 03:25:46,840
Speaker 13: possibly on a schedule, possibly just whatever the magistrate feels like.

3816
03:25:47,920 --> 03:25:50,080
Speaker 13: And then option three is you might get no bond,

3817
03:25:50,120 --> 03:25:52,160
Speaker 13: which is to say that it doesn't matter how much

3818
03:25:52,160 --> 03:25:54,080
Speaker 13: money you have, you're not getting out of jail.

3819
03:25:55,360 --> 03:25:56,320
Speaker 1: And in like a.

3820
03:25:56,920 --> 03:26:00,480
Speaker 13: Functioning criminal legal system that just on its own terms

3821
03:26:00,840 --> 03:26:05,760
Speaker 13: like worked, This is not an abolitionist perspective. Cash bail

3822
03:26:05,800 --> 03:26:08,720
Speaker 13: is unnecessary. The magistrate should be deciding and the judge

3823
03:26:08,720 --> 03:26:11,760
Speaker 13: should be deciding whether you are a threat to the

3824
03:26:11,800 --> 03:26:14,480
Speaker 13: community or whether you're not, and that should be like

3825
03:26:14,520 --> 03:26:17,520
Speaker 13: the only option. The other thing I'll throw in here

3826
03:26:17,920 --> 03:26:20,720
Speaker 13: is that paying money is not the best way to

3827
03:26:20,760 --> 03:26:23,279
Speaker 13: make sure that people show up to court. There's extensive

3828
03:26:23,360 --> 03:26:26,720
Speaker 13: data from the immigration system and from the legal system

3829
03:26:26,800 --> 03:26:28,880
Speaker 13: that the number one best way to make sure people

3830
03:26:28,920 --> 03:26:31,040
Speaker 13: show up to their courte is to give them an attorney.

3831
03:26:31,840 --> 03:26:34,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, which is a whole other thing we can

3832
03:26:34,760 --> 03:26:38,640
Speaker 5: get into with the immigration So I think that's a

3833
03:26:38,720 --> 03:26:41,960
Speaker 5: really good kind of example of some a good deep

3834
03:26:42,000 --> 03:26:45,920
Speaker 5: dive into what ball is. So essentially like a bail

3835
03:26:45,959 --> 03:26:47,840
Speaker 5: fund can make it so that there is not this

3836
03:26:48,040 --> 03:26:51,680
Speaker 5: financial burden or this financial barrier to freedom. Right, Well,

3837
03:26:51,720 --> 03:26:54,400
Speaker 5: you haven't meaned yet to be convicted of any crime.

3838
03:26:55,840 --> 03:26:58,800
Speaker 5: It's not necessarily like an abolitionist thing to exist, but

3839
03:26:59,040 --> 03:27:02,240
Speaker 5: like it helps it LEAs move us towards a less cruel,

3840
03:27:02,440 --> 03:27:07,000
Speaker 5: a less unjust system, I suppose. So I want to

3841
03:27:07,040 --> 03:27:10,560
Speaker 5: talk about like a little bit of the like nuts

3842
03:27:10,600 --> 03:27:13,240
Speaker 5: and bolts of what it takes to run a bail fund.

3843
03:27:14,040 --> 03:27:16,800
Speaker 5: But before we do that, we are twenty two minutes in,

3844
03:27:17,600 --> 03:27:19,160
Speaker 5: so talking of nuts and bolts, we need to pay

3845
03:27:19,160 --> 03:27:21,320
Speaker 5: our bills. So this is an advert. It's probably not

3846
03:27:21,440 --> 03:27:25,120
Speaker 5: something you need, but here it is. Anyway, all right,

3847
03:27:25,120 --> 03:27:28,439
Speaker 5: we're back. I hope you've bought whatever it was, MRIs

3848
03:27:28,560 --> 03:27:33,240
Speaker 5: or Run of Very Good Dog Coins or Hoover. So

3849
03:27:34,160 --> 03:27:38,200
Speaker 5: let's talk about the like if you're listening to this

3850
03:27:38,320 --> 03:27:39,720
Speaker 5: and you're in your car on your way home or

3851
03:27:39,720 --> 03:27:43,320
Speaker 5: whatever time you're listening on a long road trip, you're thinking,

3852
03:27:43,360 --> 03:27:45,280
Speaker 5: I would like to be the person. Maybe you're a

3853
03:27:45,360 --> 03:27:48,520
Speaker 5: law student yourself, or you're formerly incarcerated person, or you've

3854
03:27:48,600 --> 03:27:53,920
Speaker 5: had family members go through the system, and you're like, hell, yeah,

3855
03:27:54,000 --> 03:27:57,560
Speaker 5: this shit sucks, and I would like to help make

3856
03:27:57,600 --> 03:28:01,560
Speaker 5: it a little bit less sucky. When you're like, I'm

3857
03:28:01,640 --> 03:28:03,400
Speaker 5: thinking here, when you establish a bail fund, like is

3858
03:28:03,480 --> 03:28:06,000
Speaker 5: it a five oh one C three? Do you need

3859
03:28:06,200 --> 03:28:09,320
Speaker 5: like certain like do you I know for five oh

3860
03:28:09,320 --> 03:28:11,000
Speaker 5: one C three you need certain people and a certain

3861
03:28:11,080 --> 03:28:12,880
Speaker 5: number of people doing certain jobs on your board that

3862
03:28:13,000 --> 03:28:16,760
Speaker 5: kind of stuff, like what are the like concrete steps

3863
03:28:16,840 --> 03:28:19,800
Speaker 5: that one has to take to go from this sucks

3864
03:28:19,879 --> 03:28:22,320
Speaker 5: to the chair of the bail fund? And I can

3865
03:28:22,360 --> 03:28:22,640
Speaker 5: help you.

3866
03:28:24,280 --> 03:28:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So

3867
03:28:27,800 --> 03:28:30,800
Speaker 1: we are five on one three C five one C three,

3868
03:28:31,440 --> 03:28:33,960
Speaker 1: but we were posting bonds before we had like the

3869
03:28:34,040 --> 03:28:38,119
Speaker 1: official status. So I think truly like all you need

3870
03:28:38,360 --> 03:28:41,640
Speaker 1: is some motivation and some money and there you know,

3871
03:28:41,720 --> 03:28:45,120
Speaker 1: there are bail funds that post ten to fifteen bonds

3872
03:28:45,160 --> 03:28:47,360
Speaker 1: a week, and there's bill funds that post one bond

3873
03:28:47,360 --> 03:28:49,600
Speaker 1: a month because that's all they can do. And I

3874
03:28:49,680 --> 03:28:53,520
Speaker 1: think like, as our organization has grown and matured, we've

3875
03:28:53,560 --> 03:28:56,880
Speaker 1: gotten way more organized. And we started out it was

3876
03:28:57,120 --> 03:29:00,760
Speaker 1: it was pretty chaotic and people it was poorly organized,

3877
03:29:00,760 --> 03:29:03,879
Speaker 1: but we were still posting the bonds. And I think

3878
03:29:03,920 --> 03:29:06,280
Speaker 1: from day one We've been good about that and so

3879
03:29:06,760 --> 03:29:09,600
Speaker 1: like you can definitely start and you'll learn as we've

3880
03:29:09,680 --> 03:29:12,359
Speaker 1: learned as we go, and you know, we refined everything.

3881
03:29:13,120 --> 03:29:15,000
Speaker 1: But like I said, it just it takes some motivation

3882
03:29:15,360 --> 03:29:17,720
Speaker 1: and a little bit of money and then maybe Jake

3883
03:29:17,720 --> 03:29:20,039
Speaker 1: can talk to them too about the finder details.

3884
03:29:20,680 --> 03:29:24,120
Speaker 13: Yeah, so I think Taylor's absolutely right. I'm going to

3885
03:29:24,200 --> 03:29:27,960
Speaker 13: give some recommendations that I would say are how to

3886
03:29:28,120 --> 03:29:30,600
Speaker 13: set up your structure in a durable way. But I

3887
03:29:30,640 --> 03:29:33,640
Speaker 13: would also point people the National Bail Fund Network, which

3888
03:29:33,680 --> 03:29:36,800
Speaker 13: can provide resources and advice for this type of thing.

3889
03:29:37,120 --> 03:29:37,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3890
03:29:38,520 --> 03:29:40,320
Speaker 13: So basically what you need to run your bail fund

3891
03:29:40,440 --> 03:29:43,400
Speaker 13: is you need a group of people. The load, honestly

3892
03:29:43,480 --> 03:29:46,039
Speaker 13: is just like too much for one person, both emotionally

3893
03:29:46,280 --> 03:29:48,520
Speaker 13: and literally. You need people to share this work with

3894
03:29:49,160 --> 03:29:52,520
Speaker 13: for it to be sustainable. I recommend that you set

3895
03:29:52,600 --> 03:29:54,840
Speaker 13: up a five oh one C three nonprofit. This will

3896
03:29:54,840 --> 03:29:57,520
Speaker 13: help shield your volunteers from legal liability and it means

3897
03:29:57,560 --> 03:30:01,560
Speaker 13: you could take tax deductible donations. The way that you

3898
03:30:01,600 --> 03:30:03,280
Speaker 13: set that up is going to depend on your state.

3899
03:30:03,720 --> 03:30:06,480
Speaker 13: In Virginia, you register that with the State Corporation Commission,

3900
03:30:06,720 --> 03:30:11,400
Speaker 13: which means you need a president which is Taylor, And

3901
03:30:11,520 --> 03:30:13,200
Speaker 13: you need a treasurer and then a couple of the

3902
03:30:13,480 --> 03:30:15,520
Speaker 13: potentially a couple of their board members. These are the

3903
03:30:15,600 --> 03:30:18,959
Speaker 13: people who own technically the five oh one C three

3904
03:30:19,520 --> 03:30:22,440
Speaker 13: and you just need those people on your documents. You

3905
03:30:22,520 --> 03:30:25,600
Speaker 13: can use their address, but we recommend that you set

3906
03:30:25,640 --> 03:30:27,920
Speaker 13: up a PO box for getting mail. It just makes

3907
03:30:27,959 --> 03:30:30,640
Speaker 13: things a little easier, means you don't have to like

3908
03:30:30,959 --> 03:30:32,440
Speaker 13: hand your personal address over.

3909
03:30:32,360 --> 03:30:35,760
Speaker 5: To a magistrate. Yeah, makes you as doxible as well.

3910
03:30:36,280 --> 03:30:40,000
Speaker 13: Yes, And I recommend setting up a dedicated bank account

3911
03:30:41,480 --> 03:30:44,039
Speaker 13: and go to a bank that makes it has good

3912
03:30:44,120 --> 03:30:47,000
Speaker 13: hours so that you can readily withdrail with draw cash

3913
03:30:47,200 --> 03:30:49,840
Speaker 13: because you can only postpond in cash, which is its

3914
03:30:49,879 --> 03:30:53,400
Speaker 13: own insanity. So one thing we deal with is like

3915
03:30:53,480 --> 03:30:56,040
Speaker 13: the bank being closed and then having to wait a

3916
03:30:56,080 --> 03:30:57,600
Speaker 13: couple of days, you know, day and a half to

3917
03:30:57,879 --> 03:30:58,480
Speaker 13: be able to post.

3918
03:30:59,000 --> 03:30:59,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3919
03:30:59,280 --> 03:31:02,560
Speaker 13: We also recommend and a Google Voice phone number so

3920
03:31:02,800 --> 03:31:07,560
Speaker 13: that multiple people can receive phone calls at the same time. Right,

3921
03:31:07,640 --> 03:31:09,880
Speaker 13: we can have four people on a Google Voice and

3922
03:31:10,000 --> 03:31:12,920
Speaker 13: that means that if I'm working, tailor can answer the phone.

3923
03:31:13,800 --> 03:31:16,360
Speaker 13: We split it up by weeks, so we have a

3924
03:31:16,440 --> 03:31:19,400
Speaker 13: point person each week who is responsible for answering the

3925
03:31:19,440 --> 03:31:21,920
Speaker 13: phone mainly, but that doesn't mean you're the only person

3926
03:31:21,959 --> 03:31:24,160
Speaker 13: who answers that week. It's just sort of you want

3927
03:31:24,200 --> 03:31:27,760
Speaker 13: to be more heads up. You also are going to

3928
03:31:27,840 --> 03:31:34,120
Speaker 13: want a decision making structure. We use a consensus based model,

3929
03:31:34,440 --> 03:31:36,880
Speaker 13: do most of our discussions in a signal thread, but

3930
03:31:37,080 --> 03:31:40,520
Speaker 13: then we also meet about once a month, and if

3931
03:31:40,560 --> 03:31:43,640
Speaker 13: we have some issue that comes up, we can meet

3932
03:31:43,720 --> 03:31:47,480
Speaker 13: more often. And you need ideally a way to connect

3933
03:31:47,480 --> 03:31:50,560
Speaker 13: to volunteers. So we've had good luck with the law school,

3934
03:31:50,680 --> 03:31:53,160
Speaker 13: but we're expanding beyond that, you know, trying to be

3935
03:31:53,560 --> 03:31:56,240
Speaker 13: a bit of different institutions in the community and recruit

3936
03:31:56,280 --> 03:32:00,040
Speaker 13: folks to volunteer for us. You want to do do

3937
03:32:00,320 --> 03:32:02,480
Speaker 13: some amount of vetting of your volunteers. You know, they

3938
03:32:02,480 --> 03:32:05,600
Speaker 13: should be in an affinity network or have a way

3939
03:32:05,640 --> 03:32:07,160
Speaker 13: that you can ensure that they're not going to walk

3940
03:32:07,200 --> 03:32:09,120
Speaker 13: away with a five grand and cash that you hand them.

3941
03:32:10,680 --> 03:32:13,840
Speaker 13: It doesn't have to be extensive, but it's good to

3942
03:32:13,879 --> 03:32:17,480
Speaker 13: be smart about. Yeah, and one thing that we found

3943
03:32:17,560 --> 03:32:20,680
Speaker 13: really helpful is having business cards because that means you

3944
03:32:20,760 --> 03:32:23,959
Speaker 13: can hand it to the magistrate and they can get

3945
03:32:24,000 --> 03:32:27,400
Speaker 13: your address right, they can put you the name of

3946
03:32:27,480 --> 03:32:31,240
Speaker 13: the bail fund down. A problem that we've had is

3947
03:32:32,080 --> 03:32:36,080
Speaker 13: not all magistrates recognizing the bail fund, which but you

3948
03:32:36,200 --> 03:32:39,240
Speaker 13: really want to have a peel box and that business

3949
03:32:39,320 --> 03:32:42,760
Speaker 13: card so that when you get checks back from the

3950
03:32:42,800 --> 03:32:44,920
Speaker 13: court system they come to a centralized place.

3951
03:32:45,280 --> 03:32:48,000
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah, and then anyone could dromp in and

3952
03:32:48,040 --> 03:32:49,280
Speaker 5: to pust it into the bank account.

3953
03:32:49,959 --> 03:32:53,400
Speaker 13: And then the last thing that you want is website

3954
03:32:53,520 --> 03:32:56,119
Speaker 13: and a fundraising infrastructure. So as we said at the top,

3955
03:32:56,240 --> 03:32:59,240
Speaker 13: right now we're using go fundme and PayPal, But any

3956
03:32:59,280 --> 03:33:01,480
Speaker 13: way that you make the work is great, and we

3957
03:33:01,560 --> 03:33:04,800
Speaker 13: can definitely do better and we'll be expanding. That's basically it,

3958
03:33:04,920 --> 03:33:07,240
Speaker 13: though it's really not that much. Yeah, but that's great.

3959
03:33:07,280 --> 03:33:10,680
Speaker 5: I think it's like so often like a thing that

3960
03:33:10,760 --> 03:33:14,400
Speaker 5: I've seen just being sort of on the left in

3961
03:33:14,560 --> 03:33:19,240
Speaker 5: various movements since I was younger. It's like we reinvent

3962
03:33:19,320 --> 03:33:21,760
Speaker 5: the wheel every four or five years, you know. So

3963
03:33:21,920 --> 03:33:24,760
Speaker 5: just having those things that you guys have learned, you know,

3964
03:33:24,959 --> 03:33:28,640
Speaker 5: like using Google Voice and having a bank with good hours,

3965
03:33:28,680 --> 03:33:30,840
Speaker 5: I think that saves someone from having to fall down

3966
03:33:30,879 --> 03:33:35,120
Speaker 5: those same holes again. So that's really valuable. I wonder that,

3967
03:33:35,360 --> 03:33:38,080
Speaker 5: like you talked a little bit about legal liability, which

3968
03:33:38,120 --> 03:33:41,920
Speaker 5: we don't necessarily need to go into, but like there

3969
03:33:42,000 --> 03:33:45,520
Speaker 5: must is there, Like I mean, there have been some

3970
03:33:46,040 --> 03:33:48,520
Speaker 5: obviously heavily politicalized arrests in the last few months in

3971
03:33:48,680 --> 03:33:52,680
Speaker 5: the United States. Do you guys face like personal blowback

3972
03:33:52,760 --> 03:33:56,640
Speaker 5: or blowback against a group when if you're able to

3973
03:33:56,680 --> 03:33:59,000
Speaker 5: bail someone out where their arrest has been heavily reported

3974
03:33:59,080 --> 03:34:02,120
Speaker 5: on or politicized, because that's something people need to be

3975
03:34:02,200 --> 03:34:02,560
Speaker 5: aware of.

3976
03:34:04,480 --> 03:34:09,160
Speaker 1: I think that's a great question. Where we are, there's

3977
03:34:09,360 --> 03:34:12,160
Speaker 1: really we haven't posted the bond for anything that's like

3978
03:34:12,200 --> 03:34:15,000
Speaker 1: political protests related, but there is a bail fund that's

3979
03:34:15,040 --> 03:34:17,400
Speaker 1: about an hour away, much bigger than ours that in

3980
03:34:17,520 --> 03:34:21,000
Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight was doing like every night bail support

3981
03:34:21,280 --> 03:34:24,680
Speaker 1: jail support. So yeah, that's like an example of you know,

3982
03:34:25,000 --> 03:34:29,279
Speaker 1: just way different bill fundes operate. And then so basically

3983
03:34:29,440 --> 03:34:32,480
Speaker 1: we have not ever faced any kind of political blowback

3984
03:34:32,640 --> 03:34:35,840
Speaker 1: or any issues, but it's definitely something that we're prepared,

3985
03:34:36,080 --> 03:34:41,160
Speaker 1: we think about because it can't happen. There's backline in story,

3986
03:34:41,240 --> 03:34:45,959
Speaker 1: and there's definitely cases around the country where like prosecutors

3987
03:34:46,360 --> 03:34:49,000
Speaker 1: have taken aim at bail funds, you know, land of

3988
03:34:49,080 --> 03:34:53,280
Speaker 1: course was a really really yeah, big one. But they

3989
03:34:53,320 --> 03:34:57,160
Speaker 1: think you give anything to add maybe. Yeah.

3990
03:34:57,200 --> 03:35:01,320
Speaker 13: I will say that it's certainly a possibility that your

3991
03:35:01,360 --> 03:35:05,480
Speaker 13: bail fund becomes the target of both like institutional and

3992
03:35:05,959 --> 03:35:09,680
Speaker 13: like a kind of right wing moral panic. These things happen.

3993
03:35:10,560 --> 03:35:14,200
Speaker 13: It's I think relatively unlikely, but that doesn't mean you

3994
03:35:14,240 --> 03:35:17,320
Speaker 13: shouldn't be prepared for it. And I think that when

3995
03:35:17,360 --> 03:35:19,760
Speaker 13: you kind of address that, and if you end up

3996
03:35:19,800 --> 03:35:23,720
Speaker 13: in the media or getting heat for it, the most

3997
03:35:23,760 --> 03:35:28,360
Speaker 13: important thing that you can do is reflect the fact

3998
03:35:28,480 --> 03:35:31,520
Speaker 13: that the bail fund is not responsible for what happens

3999
03:35:31,520 --> 03:35:34,400
Speaker 13: when people get out, because we don't decide if you're

4000
03:35:34,400 --> 03:35:37,640
Speaker 13: getting out of jail. We will work on a first come,

4001
03:35:37,720 --> 03:35:40,879
Speaker 13: first serve basis. When someone calls us, we post their bail,

4002
03:35:40,959 --> 03:35:43,840
Speaker 13: no questions asked. And that's because there's already been a

4003
03:35:43,920 --> 03:35:46,600
Speaker 13: decision of whether this person is safe to be released,

4004
03:35:46,879 --> 03:35:49,920
Speaker 13: and that decision is made by the magistrate. Yeah, so

4005
03:35:50,160 --> 03:35:54,360
Speaker 13: any responsibility falls on the criminal legal system. It does

4006
03:35:54,440 --> 03:35:57,040
Speaker 13: not fall on us. And I think it's important to

4007
03:35:57,120 --> 03:36:01,400
Speaker 13: say that you never hear this blowback coming towards bail bondsman,

4008
03:36:02,040 --> 03:36:04,400
Speaker 13: even though they get out way more people and more

4009
03:36:04,480 --> 03:36:05,520
Speaker 13: dangerous people than we do.

4010
03:36:06,120 --> 03:36:11,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely the case. So I wonder, like

4011
03:36:12,200 --> 03:36:16,080
Speaker 5: what other issues you have faced hardships and you spoke

4012
03:36:16,120 --> 03:36:18,840
Speaker 5: about a couple of them, are there are other things

4013
03:36:19,040 --> 03:36:22,400
Speaker 5: like that you've I know, for instance, like I've obviously

4014
03:36:22,400 --> 03:36:24,440
Speaker 5: it's part of my reporting, or maybe not obviously, but

4015
03:36:24,840 --> 03:36:27,880
Speaker 5: some people apparently don't bother to do it. But I

4016
03:36:27,959 --> 03:36:31,840
Speaker 5: communicate with incarcerated people when they're writing about them because

4017
03:36:31,920 --> 03:36:34,760
Speaker 5: it seems like a reasonable thing to do, and I

4018
03:36:34,879 --> 03:36:41,440
Speaker 5: am very aware of how annoying, expensive, time consuming, and

4019
03:36:41,920 --> 03:36:45,600
Speaker 5: just generally totally inadequate the system is of communication with people,

4020
03:36:45,760 --> 03:36:48,960
Speaker 5: even people who are not convicted of any crime. So

4021
03:36:49,080 --> 03:36:51,320
Speaker 5: I don't know if that's something you've encountered, if there

4022
03:36:51,360 --> 03:36:53,200
Speaker 5: are other sort of hardships that you guys have had

4023
03:36:53,240 --> 03:36:55,640
Speaker 5: to deal with, perhaps if there are ways you've worked

4024
03:36:55,640 --> 03:36:57,040
Speaker 5: out to get around them or to at least make

4025
03:36:57,080 --> 03:37:01,120
Speaker 5: them less difficult, then that would be great people to

4026
03:37:01,200 --> 03:37:01,480
Speaker 5: hit to you.

4027
03:37:02,920 --> 03:37:06,880
Speaker 1: The communication thing is a huge problem, yeah, exactly. You know,

4028
03:37:07,200 --> 03:37:09,640
Speaker 1: most of the calls we get are from people that

4029
03:37:09,720 --> 03:37:13,280
Speaker 1: are currently in the jail, and they can only call

4030
03:37:13,400 --> 03:37:17,120
Speaker 1: us and we cannot call them, So you know, they

4031
03:37:17,240 --> 03:37:19,800
Speaker 1: call us and we have to just say okay, like

4032
03:37:19,879 --> 03:37:21,560
Speaker 1: you need to call back in a couple of hours.

4033
03:37:22,480 --> 03:37:25,120
Speaker 1: And then you know, they have lockdowns, they can't get

4034
03:37:25,160 --> 03:37:28,160
Speaker 1: to the phone, all sorts of things. So the worst

4035
03:37:28,200 --> 03:37:30,039
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they probably one of the worst things

4036
03:37:30,040 --> 03:37:34,240
Speaker 1: that ever happened was someone called and I called the jail,

4037
03:37:34,360 --> 03:37:36,520
Speaker 1: and the jail was like, oh, they can be released today.

4038
03:37:37,240 --> 03:37:39,480
Speaker 1: And so the guy calls back and I'm like, hey, man,

4039
03:37:39,560 --> 03:37:41,240
Speaker 1: you're going to get released today. We're going to have

4040
03:37:41,280 --> 03:37:43,440
Speaker 1: a volunteer go out and post this bond, Like you

4041
03:37:43,480 --> 03:37:45,680
Speaker 1: don't need to call me back, like if you want,

4042
03:37:45,720 --> 03:37:48,760
Speaker 1: you can, but it's it's all rolling right, yeah, And

4043
03:37:48,879 --> 03:37:51,760
Speaker 1: then I call the jail to triple check everything and

4044
03:37:51,879 --> 03:37:54,600
Speaker 1: they say, oh, you know, we have to hear back

4045
03:37:54,760 --> 03:37:57,000
Speaker 1: from the court. The court has to approve this, and

4046
03:37:57,080 --> 03:38:00,120
Speaker 1: they're like closing in thirty minutes, so it's not going

4047
03:38:00,200 --> 03:38:03,000
Speaker 1: to happen today. And so now like I have no

4048
03:38:03,120 --> 03:38:05,039
Speaker 1: way to call this guy and tell him that he's

4049
03:38:05,040 --> 03:38:07,000
Speaker 1: actually not going to get out today because of a

4050
03:38:07,320 --> 03:38:11,080
Speaker 1: like bureaucratic issue, and I just have to wait until

4051
03:38:11,400 --> 03:38:14,120
Speaker 1: he just like can't take anymore. And then calls And

4052
03:38:14,840 --> 03:38:17,880
Speaker 1: that was really unpleasant situation. It's it's really unfortunate, and

4053
03:38:18,360 --> 03:38:22,440
Speaker 1: you know he was not happy. He was not happy,

4054
03:38:22,520 --> 03:38:24,360
Speaker 1: and I mean, you know, he took a little bit

4055
03:38:24,400 --> 03:38:26,640
Speaker 1: out on me, but it wasn't a case of him

4056
03:38:26,640 --> 03:38:27,480
Speaker 1: actually be mad at me.

4057
03:38:27,600 --> 03:38:27,760
Speaker 3: You know.

4058
03:38:28,040 --> 03:38:30,280
Speaker 1: I think that's something that's really cool, is like, no

4059
03:38:30,400 --> 03:38:32,920
Speaker 1: one we deliver bad news all the time, you know,

4060
03:38:33,000 --> 03:38:35,240
Speaker 1: we say you can't get out because of X, Y Z,

4061
03:38:36,240 --> 03:38:38,600
Speaker 1: and no one's ever like actually mad at us. You know,

4062
03:38:38,720 --> 03:38:41,840
Speaker 1: they might be like annoyed for a second because you know,

4063
03:38:41,879 --> 03:38:44,080
Speaker 1: I'm on the phone delivering the bad news, but every

4064
03:38:44,160 --> 03:38:46,480
Speaker 1: time at the end, they're like, thanks so much, like

4065
03:38:46,560 --> 03:38:51,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. So we haven't had any like I mean, yeah,

4066
03:38:51,120 --> 03:38:54,200
Speaker 1: I think nothing really super negative has happened. It's just

4067
03:38:54,440 --> 03:38:57,760
Speaker 1: like you said, the communication huge problem. When it's family

4068
03:38:57,840 --> 03:39:00,520
Speaker 1: members calling from not in jail, it's a little more

4069
03:39:00,560 --> 03:39:03,000
Speaker 1: easy to be able to you can call them back.

4070
03:39:03,959 --> 03:39:04,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4071
03:39:04,280 --> 03:39:06,800
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'll jump in on communication just for a minute,

4072
03:39:07,160 --> 03:39:09,160
Speaker 13: because this is an issue that I work on in

4073
03:39:09,240 --> 03:39:14,200
Speaker 13: my day job. Yeah, the paid prison phone system is

4074
03:39:15,040 --> 03:39:19,800
Speaker 13: one of the worst parts of American life. It is

4075
03:39:19,879 --> 03:39:25,080
Speaker 13: incredibly expensive to call people, and the phone systems work

4076
03:39:25,280 --> 03:39:29,800
Speaker 13: really poorly and they're actually getting worse. So for us,

4077
03:39:30,040 --> 03:39:31,879
Speaker 13: like are the main jail that we work with, Middle

4078
03:39:31,959 --> 03:39:36,360
Speaker 13: River Regional Jail used to use a phone provider called

4079
03:39:36,400 --> 03:39:38,400
Speaker 13: GTL who is one of the biggest in the country,

4080
03:39:39,360 --> 03:39:42,199
Speaker 13: and that was pricey, but like we could reliably get calls.

4081
03:39:42,600 --> 03:39:46,320
Speaker 13: They just switched over to a different provider who makes

4082
03:39:46,400 --> 03:39:49,520
Speaker 13: money in a different way. They provide tablets to the

4083
03:39:49,560 --> 03:39:52,520
Speaker 13: prison and as a result of that, all our phone

4084
03:39:52,560 --> 03:39:56,120
Speaker 13: calls are now made coming from the prison like social

4085
03:39:56,240 --> 03:39:59,920
Speaker 13: room on a tablet, which means sometimes it's too loud

4086
03:40:00,120 --> 03:40:03,240
Speaker 13: to hear the person calling, and about fifteen percent of

4087
03:40:03,280 --> 03:40:05,040
Speaker 13: the time the call just drops when you pick it up.

4088
03:40:06,600 --> 03:40:09,879
Speaker 13: So the system makes it really difficult to correspond with people.

4089
03:40:10,440 --> 03:40:12,680
Speaker 13: As a result, a couple of things that we do

4090
03:40:13,480 --> 03:40:18,480
Speaker 13: are sharing the phone responsibility. Not promising people things when

4091
03:40:18,520 --> 03:40:22,400
Speaker 13: we can't deliver them is super important, and like that's

4092
03:40:22,680 --> 03:40:25,440
Speaker 13: mostly a problem because the phone system works so badly

4093
03:40:25,600 --> 03:40:28,560
Speaker 13: and we can't communicate with people. And then the biggest

4094
03:40:28,600 --> 03:40:31,440
Speaker 13: thing is like giving yourself grace when you miss the

4095
03:40:31,520 --> 03:40:36,600
Speaker 13: phone when something goes wrong, because it's emotionally very taxing

4096
03:40:36,720 --> 03:40:39,800
Speaker 13: to know that someone desperately wants to speak with you

4097
03:40:40,080 --> 03:40:43,360
Speaker 13: because they're potentially at the worst point in their entire

4098
03:40:43,440 --> 03:40:46,280
Speaker 13: life and need to get out and you've missed a

4099
03:40:46,360 --> 03:40:49,640
Speaker 13: phone call. So it's yeah, it's really important to be

4100
03:40:49,680 --> 03:40:51,199
Speaker 13: kind to yourself in those situations.

4101
03:40:52,840 --> 03:40:54,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you won't stick around.

4102
03:40:55,680 --> 03:40:58,360
Speaker 17: And one more thing that I was surprised to find

4103
03:40:58,400 --> 03:41:02,520
Speaker 17: out about the phone system is how much recording and

4104
03:41:02,600 --> 03:41:06,560
Speaker 17: reviewing of recording goes on through those phone calls. I

4105
03:41:06,800 --> 03:41:14,400
Speaker 17: witnessed so many prosecutors, commonwealth attorneys bring up something from

4106
03:41:14,520 --> 03:41:17,760
Speaker 17: phone calls when folks were actually in trial or for

4107
03:41:17,879 --> 03:41:21,240
Speaker 17: sentencing hearings or this is later down the road. But

4108
03:41:21,320 --> 03:41:23,840
Speaker 17: the fact that they could pull up those recordings from

4109
03:41:24,080 --> 03:41:29,080
Speaker 17: a year before, two years before they were calling a

4110
03:41:29,160 --> 03:41:33,400
Speaker 17: loved one, a family member, just incredible. How much access

4111
03:41:33,640 --> 03:41:35,600
Speaker 17: there is to that and lack of privacy.

4112
03:41:36,200 --> 03:41:38,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's very humous.

4113
03:41:39,000 --> 03:41:41,400
Speaker 1: I gotta jump in on that. Yeah, you end up

4114
03:41:41,440 --> 03:41:44,440
Speaker 1: in jail, do not say anything about your case on

4115
03:41:44,600 --> 03:41:48,040
Speaker 1: the phone. Oh, and don't talk to the guards about

4116
03:41:48,240 --> 03:41:50,440
Speaker 1: why you're innocent, because I've seen that people do that.

4117
03:41:51,000 --> 03:41:53,400
Speaker 1: It's not good advice. Don't do it. Don't talk about

4118
03:41:53,400 --> 03:41:54,000
Speaker 1: the case.

4119
03:41:55,680 --> 03:41:55,880
Speaker 3: Ever.

4120
03:41:56,720 --> 03:41:56,959
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4121
03:41:57,400 --> 03:42:01,240
Speaker 13: One way we address that is by telling people upfront

4122
03:42:01,280 --> 03:42:05,480
Speaker 13: that we postpond no questions asked, and like telling people

4123
03:42:05,560 --> 03:42:08,240
Speaker 13: like it doesn't matter what your situation is, where if

4124
03:42:08,320 --> 03:42:10,560
Speaker 13: we have the money and you can get out, we're going.

4125
03:42:10,560 --> 03:42:13,920
Speaker 5: To post yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not your job to adjudicate,

4126
03:42:14,040 --> 03:42:16,320
Speaker 5: like you said, if someone's safe or unsafe, or innocent

4127
03:42:16,400 --> 03:42:19,600
Speaker 5: or guilty, that that's what the state purport to be doing.

4128
03:42:20,040 --> 03:42:21,640
Speaker 5: Like your job is just to make sure that someone's

4129
03:42:21,680 --> 03:42:25,480
Speaker 5: not too poor to be free. So on the subject

4130
03:42:25,560 --> 03:42:28,560
Speaker 5: of like the sheer finances of it, I know, like

4131
03:42:28,640 --> 03:42:32,000
Speaker 5: certainly here I've seen and I have no idea what

4132
03:42:32,280 --> 03:42:34,960
Speaker 5: the sort of I know San Diego does have. California

4133
03:42:35,040 --> 03:42:38,200
Speaker 5: has these bail guidelines so that they can't just set

4134
03:42:38,200 --> 03:42:40,000
Speaker 5: whatever bail they want. But like in twenty twenty, we

4135
03:42:40,080 --> 03:42:42,080
Speaker 5: saw some sky high bails and I don't know if

4136
03:42:42,120 --> 03:42:43,800
Speaker 5: it was just because it was like fuck you mail

4137
03:42:43,879 --> 03:42:46,240
Speaker 5: fund of it, it was just because that was what

4138
03:42:46,360 --> 03:42:50,640
Speaker 5: the guidelines allowed, or some combination thereof. But do you

4139
03:42:50,760 --> 03:42:54,000
Speaker 5: guys have a Like we can't because if you said

4140
03:42:54,000 --> 03:42:57,920
Speaker 5: you're dealing with forty thousand, right, like if you drop

4141
03:42:58,080 --> 03:43:00,520
Speaker 5: ten thousand on one individual, that obviously means that there

4142
03:43:00,520 --> 03:43:02,280
Speaker 5: are a lot of people with five hundred dollars who

4143
03:43:02,600 --> 03:43:05,800
Speaker 5: who can't have to stay in jail. So do you

4144
03:43:05,879 --> 03:43:08,520
Speaker 5: have like a cap on your individual bail amounts for

4145
03:43:08,640 --> 03:43:09,119
Speaker 5: that reason?

4146
03:43:12,000 --> 03:43:13,080
Speaker 13: Yeah, tailoruld you want to take.

4147
03:43:13,000 --> 03:43:15,440
Speaker 1: This Yeah, yeah, so yeah, we have a cap. We

4148
03:43:15,560 --> 03:43:18,680
Speaker 1: pay up to five thousand dollars, So five thousand dollars

4149
03:43:18,760 --> 03:43:23,199
Speaker 1: or less and that Yeah, it's exactly what you said,

4150
03:43:23,280 --> 03:43:26,920
Speaker 1: like otherwise, you know, we would be totally broke an

4151
03:43:26,959 --> 03:43:29,240
Speaker 1: out of money. And even you know, two five thousand

4152
03:43:29,280 --> 03:43:31,200
Speaker 1: dollars bonds in a row and then you know, yeah,

4153
03:43:31,280 --> 03:43:34,560
Speaker 1: we're pretty screwed. So and then I think that's a

4154
03:43:34,640 --> 03:43:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, it brings up something else that Jick and

4155
03:43:36,720 --> 03:43:40,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about, like it's we have it's important to

4156
03:43:40,680 --> 03:43:45,280
Speaker 1: stick to that limit. We one time we posted a

4157
03:43:45,400 --> 03:43:48,760
Speaker 1: bond up to twelve thousand dollars for somebody, and you know,

4158
03:43:49,080 --> 03:43:51,640
Speaker 1: I think it was a combination of many factors that

4159
03:43:51,720 --> 03:43:53,040
Speaker 1: led us to do that. But at the end of

4160
03:43:53,080 --> 03:43:55,600
Speaker 1: the day, it can be very hard just to tell

4161
03:43:55,680 --> 03:43:57,879
Speaker 1: someone no, because it was like he had a five

4162
03:43:57,920 --> 03:44:01,400
Speaker 1: thousand dollars bond and then a separate court I got

4163
03:44:01,400 --> 03:44:03,840
Speaker 1: another one, and so it was you know, we already

4164
03:44:03,840 --> 03:44:06,160
Speaker 1: told him you could pay the one bond. Anyway, long

4165
03:44:06,200 --> 03:44:10,160
Speaker 1: story is short, we had twelve thousand dollars tied up

4166
03:44:10,200 --> 03:44:12,520
Speaker 1: on this guy and then he didn't show up to court.

4167
03:44:13,720 --> 03:44:16,000
Speaker 1: And if that's that's when you can lose the money,

4168
03:44:16,160 --> 03:44:20,520
Speaker 1: then people don't show up to court, so as well. Yeah,

4169
03:44:21,200 --> 03:44:24,520
Speaker 1: fortunately for us, Unfortunately for him, he did get re

4170
03:44:24,720 --> 03:44:30,400
Speaker 1: arrested on another charge. And when that happens, there's like

4171
03:44:30,440 --> 03:44:33,199
Speaker 1: a ninety day period where if the person gets caught,

4172
03:44:33,480 --> 03:44:36,880
Speaker 1: then we get the money back. And that's where, like

4173
03:44:37,600 --> 03:44:40,440
Speaker 1: we are princes. Our policy is like we're not going

4174
03:44:40,480 --> 03:44:42,640
Speaker 1: to do anything if the person runs, like, we're not

4175
03:44:42,680 --> 03:44:44,080
Speaker 1: going to do anything to try to get it back.

4176
03:44:44,120 --> 03:44:47,560
Speaker 1: We're not going to revoke anybody's bond, but like a

4177
03:44:47,600 --> 03:44:50,800
Speaker 1: Bill bondsman might try to like find you if you run. Yeah,

4178
03:44:51,280 --> 03:44:53,720
Speaker 1: but so are kind of our joke was kind of like, well,

4179
03:44:53,800 --> 03:44:57,160
Speaker 1: we hope that we hope the guy just gets away completely,

4180
03:44:57,280 --> 03:44:59,320
Speaker 1: but if he's not going to get away, maybe get

4181
03:44:59,400 --> 03:45:00,600
Speaker 1: caught with him ninety days.

4182
03:45:02,720 --> 03:45:02,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4183
03:45:03,480 --> 03:45:08,080
Speaker 17: But the best thing is if people would contribute and donate,

4184
03:45:08,240 --> 03:45:11,080
Speaker 17: we could be able to allocate for so many more

4185
03:45:11,120 --> 03:45:15,760
Speaker 17: people and not have people spend time in jail where

4186
03:45:16,280 --> 03:45:21,120
Speaker 17: things like mental health conditions worsened because prison guards are

4187
03:45:21,440 --> 03:45:24,720
Speaker 17: and jail guards are not paying attention. Where you don't

4188
03:45:24,720 --> 03:45:27,720
Speaker 17: have access to an attorney easily, where when you show

4189
03:45:27,840 --> 03:45:34,000
Speaker 17: up to your day in court, you don't have an

4190
03:45:34,040 --> 03:45:37,720
Speaker 17: orange jumpsuit on, and that's not factoring into the judge's mind.

4191
03:45:38,240 --> 03:45:42,200
Speaker 17: So please please donate for all those reasons to our

4192
03:45:42,280 --> 03:45:42,760
Speaker 17: built fund.

4193
03:45:43,240 --> 03:45:44,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, if we have.

4194
03:45:44,879 --> 03:45:47,160
Speaker 1: More money, That's something we talked about a lot of times,

4195
03:45:47,240 --> 03:45:49,360
Speaker 1: like if we have more money, we would be able

4196
03:45:49,400 --> 03:45:51,800
Speaker 1: to raise the limit on the out we could post.

4197
03:45:51,840 --> 03:45:53,360
Speaker 1: But it's just not feasible right now.

4198
03:45:54,040 --> 03:45:56,160
Speaker 5: In terms of donation. It's a great thing. I was

4199
03:45:56,240 --> 03:45:58,760
Speaker 5: just thinking, like good because it keeps going around and

4200
03:45:58,879 --> 03:46:01,360
Speaker 5: around and around. Right, It's not like, you know, you

4201
03:46:01,440 --> 03:46:03,200
Speaker 5: give a donation once and you get someone the thing

4202
03:46:03,240 --> 03:46:05,160
Speaker 5: and you change their life, like you can potentially change

4203
03:46:05,240 --> 03:46:07,640
Speaker 5: dozens of hundreds of people's hold true deg Tree.

4204
03:46:08,680 --> 03:46:10,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely cool.

4205
03:46:10,760 --> 03:46:12,840
Speaker 13: Yeah, and I will add on how we address our

4206
03:46:12,920 --> 03:46:15,400
Speaker 13: lack of funds. The other system that we have in

4207
03:46:15,440 --> 03:46:19,400
Speaker 13: place is a weight list. So people call us and

4208
03:46:20,040 --> 03:46:21,520
Speaker 13: we can tell them, hey, you're on the wait list.

4209
03:46:21,800 --> 03:46:23,280
Speaker 13: They'll call back all the time and be like Hey,

4210
03:46:23,320 --> 03:46:25,280
Speaker 13: if I moved up the wait list. Sometimes people call

4211
03:46:25,360 --> 03:46:27,840
Speaker 13: it multiple times a day and they're like, oh, any movement,

4212
03:46:27,959 --> 03:46:32,480
Speaker 13: my my number four. Now this is kind of wild,

4213
03:46:33,000 --> 03:46:36,040
Speaker 13: but having the wait list and we go like in

4214
03:46:36,120 --> 03:46:39,440
Speaker 13: strict weight list order, with the exception that if someone

4215
03:46:39,520 --> 03:46:42,080
Speaker 13: has an under five hundred dollars five hundred dollars or less,

4216
03:46:42,200 --> 03:46:45,240
Speaker 13: we'll just post that. Because if we're sitting around waiting

4217
03:46:45,320 --> 03:46:48,400
Speaker 13: for someone to get money back from the courts for

4218
03:46:48,520 --> 03:46:50,840
Speaker 13: a five thousand dollars bond, that's next in line. We

4219
03:46:50,920 --> 03:46:54,240
Speaker 13: could have forty five hundred bucks. And so for the

4220
03:46:54,320 --> 03:46:59,800
Speaker 13: super low bonds where the issue is like purely, purely poverty,

4221
03:47:01,280 --> 03:47:04,720
Speaker 13: we make an exception. But you run into that kind

4222
03:47:04,720 --> 03:47:07,240
Speaker 13: of ethical question all the time running the bell phone,

4223
03:47:07,320 --> 03:47:10,280
Speaker 13: like how do we make the best decisions. It's going

4224
03:47:10,320 --> 03:47:13,240
Speaker 13: to help you know people in the best way and

4225
03:47:13,280 --> 03:47:15,920
Speaker 13: then accords with our values the most that can get

4226
03:47:16,120 --> 03:47:21,240
Speaker 13: pretty heated and intense, and having a setup with folks

4227
03:47:21,280 --> 03:47:23,280
Speaker 13: where like you really respect each other and like each other,

4228
03:47:23,520 --> 03:47:27,320
Speaker 13: I think is really important to not let that spire

4229
03:47:27,400 --> 03:47:29,880
Speaker 13: out of control. It helps that you know, Taylor and

4230
03:47:29,920 --> 03:47:33,360
Speaker 13: Melissa and I have been friends for many years and

4231
03:47:33,480 --> 03:47:35,040
Speaker 13: we can like hang out and talk about this, and

4232
03:47:35,120 --> 03:47:36,400
Speaker 13: then like Taylor and I can go out and go

4233
03:47:36,440 --> 03:47:37,080
Speaker 13: for a bike ride.

4234
03:47:38,920 --> 03:47:39,120
Speaker 17: Nice.

4235
03:47:39,280 --> 03:47:42,920
Speaker 5: So having those relationships I think is really important. Yeah.

4236
03:47:43,040 --> 03:47:46,440
Speaker 17: Yeah, and don't get too competitive over board games like

4237
03:47:46,520 --> 03:47:51,160
Speaker 17: wings when somebody wins and still being able to talk

4238
03:47:51,240 --> 03:47:51,680
Speaker 17: at the end of.

4239
03:47:51,680 --> 03:47:57,040
Speaker 5: That seems like a direct experience one.

4240
03:48:01,840 --> 03:48:06,520
Speaker 1: We are an abolitionist like principles, you know, And but

4241
03:48:06,800 --> 03:48:09,120
Speaker 1: I think, almost like you know, I've talked one of

4242
03:48:09,160 --> 03:48:11,400
Speaker 1: their builtments that I know of, they have some sort

4243
03:48:11,440 --> 03:48:15,280
Speaker 1: of system I'm not super familiar with, like prioritizing someone

4244
03:48:15,320 --> 03:48:17,560
Speaker 1: that maybe they consider to be higher risk in the

4245
03:48:17,640 --> 03:48:20,560
Speaker 1: prison system to get out first. And I think that

4246
03:48:20,640 --> 03:48:24,039
Speaker 1: that's a really a really appealing thing. But it's it's

4247
03:48:24,240 --> 03:48:27,280
Speaker 1: just like kind of Jake touched on earlier, Like that's

4248
03:48:27,400 --> 03:48:30,600
Speaker 1: just adding like another layer of judgment. Like then we

4249
03:48:30,879 --> 03:48:33,840
Speaker 1: become these like arbiters of who is in jail and

4250
03:48:33,879 --> 03:48:36,440
Speaker 1: who's not in jail and as much and so like

4251
03:48:36,720 --> 03:48:41,400
Speaker 1: almost almost counterintuitively, like having this system first come, first serve,

4252
03:48:41,560 --> 03:48:44,440
Speaker 1: I think is like the most abolitionist thing we can do.

4253
03:48:45,400 --> 03:48:47,720
Speaker 5: Yes, I can see that, Yeah, yeah, And it certainly

4254
03:48:47,920 --> 03:48:51,039
Speaker 5: reduces a load on you and making most difficult choices.

4255
03:48:50,720 --> 03:48:51,119
Speaker 6: Which.

4256
03:48:52,800 --> 03:48:53,720
Speaker 1: It helps with that. Yeah.

4257
03:48:53,760 --> 03:48:57,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, we were talking about the system, and like I

4258
03:48:57,200 --> 03:49:01,160
Speaker 5: want to bring that up because this system is like,

4259
03:49:01,720 --> 03:49:04,440
Speaker 5: you know, I cover not a lot of criminal justice,

4260
03:49:04,480 --> 03:49:08,240
Speaker 5: but a decent bit and it is incredibly confusing. It's convoluted.

4261
03:49:08,520 --> 03:49:11,280
Speaker 5: It's like they've got these old ass names that you

4262
03:49:11,360 --> 03:49:13,920
Speaker 5: don't understand, and then Naghirra and Virginia, so you have

4263
03:49:13,960 --> 03:49:16,880
Speaker 5: a whole other layer of weird stuff going on, like

4264
03:49:17,000 --> 03:49:17,840
Speaker 5: with names and.

4265
03:49:18,280 --> 03:49:18,840
Speaker 1: So like.

4266
03:49:20,400 --> 03:49:22,880
Speaker 5: If someone's thinking of something this and they're like, I

4267
03:49:23,080 --> 03:49:25,120
Speaker 5: want this to happen, but I do not understand how

4268
03:49:25,160 --> 03:49:27,160
Speaker 5: to navigate this system? Does that mean that they need

4269
03:49:27,240 --> 03:49:30,640
Speaker 5: someone with a little more legal experience? Like can you

4270
03:49:30,720 --> 03:49:34,600
Speaker 5: explain how as like someone who isn't obviously some of

4271
03:49:35,080 --> 03:49:37,200
Speaker 5: both at least two of you have. I suppose all

4272
03:49:37,240 --> 03:49:38,840
Speaker 5: of you have some experience with the legal system in

4273
03:49:38,920 --> 03:49:40,840
Speaker 5: one way or another and understand it a little better

4274
03:49:40,920 --> 03:49:43,800
Speaker 5: because of that. But if someone has been fortunate enough

4275
03:49:43,880 --> 03:49:47,080
Speaker 5: not to have to interact with the criminal law system,

4276
03:49:48,640 --> 03:49:51,000
Speaker 5: are they like do they need a law student or

4277
03:49:51,040 --> 03:49:53,720
Speaker 5: a lawyer to start a bail fund? Or like, how

4278
03:49:53,760 --> 03:49:56,320
Speaker 5: does one go about learning to navigate that system? I suppose.

4279
03:49:57,080 --> 03:49:59,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, they definitely not. You do not need to have

4280
03:49:59,520 --> 03:50:02,600
Speaker 1: legal experience. I think it was kind of a just

4281
03:50:02,680 --> 03:50:04,400
Speaker 1: a random chance that it was a law of students

4282
03:50:04,400 --> 03:50:07,480
Speaker 1: that found in this one. Basically, like you said, it

4283
03:50:07,560 --> 03:50:10,440
Speaker 1: is extremely confusing system and the only way you're going

4284
03:50:10,520 --> 03:50:12,880
Speaker 1: to learn how it all works is just by going

4285
03:50:12,960 --> 03:50:17,880
Speaker 1: and posting the bonds. Like the system is possible, like

4286
03:50:18,040 --> 03:50:20,680
Speaker 1: the bond system. We're just like a family member going

4287
03:50:20,720 --> 03:50:24,120
Speaker 1: to post someone's bond, so like it's set up and

4288
03:50:24,200 --> 03:50:26,120
Speaker 1: then it is possible for like your loved one to

4289
03:50:26,200 --> 03:50:29,760
Speaker 1: post your bond, and we just learned all the experience.

4290
03:50:29,880 --> 03:50:32,320
Speaker 1: You know, you just go you call it. You would

4291
03:50:32,360 --> 03:50:34,160
Speaker 1: just call the jail and say where do I post

4292
03:50:34,240 --> 03:50:36,760
Speaker 1: this bond and they'll tell you. You know, you come

4293
03:50:36,840 --> 03:50:39,080
Speaker 1: to the magistrate. This is where the magistrates is located,

4294
03:50:39,680 --> 03:50:41,960
Speaker 1: and then you know, you go with the cash and

4295
03:50:42,080 --> 03:50:44,640
Speaker 1: post and like there will be every like we work in.

4296
03:50:45,440 --> 03:50:48,800
Speaker 1: It's ten courts, five different jurisdictions, and then you each

4297
03:50:48,840 --> 03:50:52,000
Speaker 1: have two court systems, and I swear almost every single

4298
03:50:52,120 --> 03:50:55,960
Speaker 1: court does things somewhat differently. And the way we just

4299
03:50:56,080 --> 03:50:58,280
Speaker 1: get on the phone and call them, you know, be

4300
03:50:58,400 --> 03:51:01,440
Speaker 1: really polite and just figure it all out and write

4301
03:51:01,480 --> 03:51:02,920
Speaker 1: it down so that we know in the future.

4302
03:51:03,640 --> 03:51:06,960
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll tell you, like, you can learn

4303
03:51:07,000 --> 03:51:10,680
Speaker 13: these systems over time, and that's really worth doing because

4304
03:51:10,800 --> 03:51:13,200
Speaker 13: in a moment of crisis, like mass arrests during a

4305
03:51:13,240 --> 03:51:16,880
Speaker 13: protest movement, knowing how to navigate the system in a

4306
03:51:17,040 --> 03:51:19,880
Speaker 13: quick and reliable way is really valuable. It makes it

4307
03:51:19,960 --> 03:51:23,200
Speaker 13: way easier to get people out. And so I would

4308
03:51:23,240 --> 03:51:26,920
Speaker 13: like pitch even if you don't feel really strongly about

4309
03:51:26,960 --> 03:51:28,680
Speaker 13: getting people out of jail, but you want to be

4310
03:51:28,840 --> 03:51:31,680
Speaker 13: helpful in a time of crisis, like, learning the legal

4311
03:51:31,720 --> 03:51:36,320
Speaker 13: system as a non lawyer is doable. I will also

4312
03:51:36,400 --> 03:51:38,200
Speaker 13: say that, like, you don't learn how to do this

4313
03:51:38,240 --> 03:51:40,840
Speaker 13: stuff in law school. I didn't learn how to post

4314
03:51:40,880 --> 03:51:45,240
Speaker 13: a bond, how to like file a kpist any of

4315
03:51:45,320 --> 03:51:49,080
Speaker 13: this crazy stuff that we have to do. Virginia is

4316
03:51:49,280 --> 03:51:51,480
Speaker 13: truly like one of the worst states in the country.

4317
03:51:51,880 --> 03:51:54,560
Speaker 13: I talked to a public defender who's worked in courts

4318
03:51:54,600 --> 03:51:57,880
Speaker 13: in Louisiana and was like, yeah, a Virginia court system

4319
03:51:58,000 --> 03:52:03,600
Speaker 13: is worse and more unfathomable, which is not if you

4320
03:52:03,640 --> 03:52:06,640
Speaker 13: know anything about New Orleans legal system is not great,

4321
03:52:08,760 --> 03:52:12,760
Speaker 13: but you can you know, you can learn an incredible amount,

4322
03:52:13,040 --> 03:52:16,920
Speaker 13: and then that skill just becomes valuable in a number

4323
03:52:16,920 --> 03:52:20,360
Speaker 13: of different areas. One of the most like powerful ways

4324
03:52:20,400 --> 03:52:24,440
Speaker 13: that you can help people is even when you're not

4325
03:52:24,560 --> 03:52:26,960
Speaker 13: able to postpond for them, knowing how to look up

4326
03:52:27,000 --> 03:52:30,240
Speaker 13: someone's case, tell them what their charges are, tell them

4327
03:52:30,280 --> 03:52:35,040
Speaker 13: what is happening to them is incredibly helpful because the

4328
03:52:35,120 --> 03:52:38,080
Speaker 13: majority of people we talk to have some idea of

4329
03:52:38,600 --> 03:52:41,000
Speaker 13: why they're in jail, but they don't know the details,

4330
03:52:41,440 --> 03:52:44,440
Speaker 13: and that means that they don't know like why they're

4331
03:52:44,480 --> 03:52:47,600
Speaker 13: not getting out, and just being able to give people

4332
03:52:47,640 --> 03:52:50,240
Speaker 13: a little bit of certainty is really important.

4333
03:52:51,200 --> 03:52:53,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think this is a very valuable thing you

4334
03:52:53,120 --> 03:52:56,000
Speaker 5: can do. And yeah, I think this whole thing has

4335
03:52:56,000 --> 03:52:58,760
Speaker 5: been a very valuable insight into how to build a

4336
03:52:58,800 --> 03:53:01,800
Speaker 5: mail fund, I guess. And is there anything else do

4337
03:53:01,920 --> 03:53:04,600
Speaker 5: you guys think that we didn't cover in the grand

4338
03:53:04,640 --> 03:53:09,280
Speaker 5: scheme of being bail friend entrepreneurs. I don't know what

4339
03:53:09,360 --> 03:53:13,000
Speaker 5: the right phrase is that bail fund founder is just.

4340
03:53:13,040 --> 03:53:16,120
Speaker 17: The importance and making sure to be rooted in the community.

4341
03:53:16,480 --> 03:53:18,280
Speaker 17: I think that's going to be the best way not

4342
03:53:18,440 --> 03:53:22,760
Speaker 17: only to fundraise in the long term, because you can

4343
03:53:23,000 --> 03:53:27,880
Speaker 17: have even five dollars if it's reoccurring from some community members,

4344
03:53:28,240 --> 03:53:31,760
Speaker 17: you get to know what's happening, what's something that's a

4345
03:53:31,840 --> 03:53:36,880
Speaker 17: reoccurring problem throughout the community, and just making sure to

4346
03:53:37,040 --> 03:53:40,320
Speaker 17: listen to that and to be able to navigate going forward.

4347
03:53:42,800 --> 03:53:45,960
Speaker 1: I think one thing that I think is I found

4348
03:53:46,040 --> 03:53:48,920
Speaker 1: so interesting about doing this bill fund is that it

4349
03:53:49,480 --> 03:53:53,160
Speaker 1: spans it really crosses completely there or even like I

4350
03:53:53,200 --> 03:53:56,000
Speaker 1: would say, it transcends politics, Like I think that all

4351
03:53:56,040 --> 03:53:59,320
Speaker 1: of the board members are in here politically motivated. You know,

4352
03:53:59,440 --> 03:54:03,240
Speaker 1: we're abolitionists or you know, against the current court system.

4353
03:54:04,120 --> 03:54:08,760
Speaker 1: But the people's lives, like across every political spectrum have

4354
03:54:08,840 --> 03:54:12,560
Speaker 1: been ruined by prison in jail. And I think one time,

4355
03:54:12,720 --> 03:54:14,920
Speaker 1: like I think the most interesting example that Billy drove

4356
03:54:15,040 --> 03:54:17,000
Speaker 1: his home was I was at work. I was at

4357
03:54:17,040 --> 03:54:19,480
Speaker 1: the lumber yard, you know, and I think you know

4358
03:54:19,600 --> 03:54:21,520
Speaker 1: the people, the salesman at the lumber yard. I think

4359
03:54:21,560 --> 03:54:23,200
Speaker 1: they would follow them more if I was going to

4360
03:54:23,240 --> 03:54:25,760
Speaker 1: stereotype them, I would say to you on the conservative side.

4361
03:54:25,960 --> 03:54:30,080
Speaker 1: And the one guy, the salesman, was it heard about

4362
03:54:30,120 --> 03:54:31,960
Speaker 1: that I did this. I think he saw Facebook that

4363
03:54:32,040 --> 03:54:34,040
Speaker 1: posted about it, and he was like that is he's

4364
03:54:34,080 --> 03:54:36,040
Speaker 1: like this is just the coolest thing ever. Man, Like,

4365
03:54:36,120 --> 03:54:37,920
Speaker 1: I think it's so awesome, you know, like he's like

4366
03:54:38,000 --> 03:54:42,280
Speaker 1: people are just locked up for like bullshit, and yeah,

4367
03:54:42,400 --> 03:54:44,520
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, we've had volunteers that I

4368
03:54:44,600 --> 03:54:47,520
Speaker 1: think people were like knew him or like why I

4369
03:54:47,640 --> 03:54:50,360
Speaker 1: think he's like almost like a Republican and just going

4370
03:54:50,360 --> 03:54:52,680
Speaker 1: out and posting these bonds. And I think that it's uh,

4371
03:54:53,080 --> 03:54:56,560
Speaker 1: like I said, yeah, it's just fascinating that it does transcend.

4372
03:54:57,720 --> 03:54:59,600
Speaker 1: It transcends the politics a little bit.

4373
03:55:00,240 --> 03:55:02,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think anyone who's had to interact with the

4374
03:55:02,680 --> 03:55:06,280
Speaker 5: criminal justice system, I like, I have an interact with

4375
03:55:06,320 --> 03:55:09,280
Speaker 5: the American one. But like if they've had in their family,

4376
03:55:09,360 --> 03:55:11,360
Speaker 5: if they've had it in there, you know, and their

4377
03:55:11,560 --> 03:55:15,400
Speaker 5: friend group or whatever, realizes how dehumanizing and unjust it is.

4378
03:55:15,800 --> 03:55:18,360
Speaker 5: And especially like if they're working people, right, they are

4379
03:55:18,440 --> 03:55:21,640
Speaker 5: not people of massive means, They'll have seen how how

4380
03:55:21,720 --> 03:55:23,280
Speaker 5: hard it can weigh. And you're trying to come up

4381
03:55:23,320 --> 03:55:25,760
Speaker 5: with money to bond someone out who you care about,

4382
03:55:26,240 --> 03:55:28,320
Speaker 5: even if they'd end up not being found guilty, and

4383
03:55:28,440 --> 03:55:31,320
Speaker 5: so like, it can be a very broad based thing.

4384
03:55:31,680 --> 03:55:35,680
Speaker 5: And I think it's certainly something that like I start

4385
03:55:35,680 --> 03:55:37,720
Speaker 5: a lot of people giving money to bailfund's in twenty

4386
03:55:37,760 --> 03:55:40,720
Speaker 5: twenty who may not have you know, they weren't necessarily

4387
03:55:40,760 --> 03:55:42,840
Speaker 5: people who are also out in the streets. Like it's

4388
03:55:42,880 --> 03:55:44,480
Speaker 5: a way for people to be part of a movement.

4389
03:55:44,520 --> 03:55:47,520
Speaker 5: It's a way for people to who feel that like

4390
03:55:47,640 --> 03:55:50,560
Speaker 5: this is unjust, even if yeah, they might not share

4391
03:55:50,600 --> 03:55:52,840
Speaker 5: abolitionist politics or whatever. I think it's something that a

4392
03:55:52,920 --> 03:55:54,720
Speaker 5: lot of people would want to get behind.

4393
03:55:56,760 --> 03:55:59,200
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'll say that. For me, the most meaningful part

4394
03:55:59,240 --> 03:56:03,160
Speaker 13: of this work is having the opportunity to treat people

4395
03:56:03,200 --> 03:56:06,120
Speaker 13: with dignity when they are in a system that absolutely

4396
03:56:06,120 --> 03:56:08,640
Speaker 13: gives them no dignity. The police do not treat people

4397
03:56:08,680 --> 03:56:11,320
Speaker 13: with dignity, the judges in the courts do not treat

4398
03:56:11,320 --> 03:56:14,200
Speaker 13: people with dignity, and your jailers are not going to

4399
03:56:14,240 --> 03:56:17,640
Speaker 13: treat you with dignity. So having the opportunity to answer

4400
03:56:17,680 --> 03:56:21,200
Speaker 13: a phone and be kind to someone, to listen to them,

4401
03:56:21,400 --> 03:56:24,200
Speaker 13: and to do small things for them. Call their family,

4402
03:56:24,360 --> 03:56:26,640
Speaker 13: let their family know that they're locked up, Let their

4403
03:56:26,680 --> 03:56:30,160
Speaker 13: family know that someone is working on getting them out.

4404
03:56:31,160 --> 03:56:34,840
Speaker 13: Oftentimes I will get a call from someone and we

4405
03:56:34,920 --> 03:56:36,960
Speaker 13: aren't able to post, but I can call their mom

4406
03:56:37,160 --> 03:56:40,160
Speaker 13: and talk their mom through getting a bail Bondsman, I've

4407
03:56:40,200 --> 03:56:43,000
Speaker 13: had people like cry on the phone with me because

4408
03:56:43,000 --> 03:56:46,400
Speaker 13: they've said I felt so helpless not being able to

4409
03:56:46,480 --> 03:56:48,760
Speaker 13: get my son out of jail, and getting a call

4410
03:56:48,840 --> 03:56:52,480
Speaker 13: from you made a huge difference. So I think I

4411
03:56:52,720 --> 03:56:54,640
Speaker 13: just like, if you can do this, you can get

4412
03:56:54,680 --> 03:56:57,120
Speaker 13: together with your friends and form a bail fund and

4413
03:56:57,360 --> 03:57:02,040
Speaker 13: in a really concrete way improve their lives and treat

4414
03:57:02,080 --> 03:57:04,360
Speaker 13: them with dignity. And that's such a radical thing.

4415
03:57:05,120 --> 03:57:09,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, all right, so I think

4416
03:57:09,240 --> 03:57:11,120
Speaker 5: the wrap up, we should bet, we should again remind

4417
03:57:11,160 --> 03:57:13,480
Speaker 5: people where they can give you their money. So how

4418
03:57:13,520 --> 03:57:17,480
Speaker 5: would people go about doing that? Yeah, please do please

4419
03:57:17,560 --> 03:57:19,680
Speaker 5: don't it to the Blue Ridge Community Bail Fund.

4420
03:57:20,760 --> 03:57:24,680
Speaker 13: We are on PayPal at PayPal, dot me, slash blue

4421
03:57:24,920 --> 03:57:29,680
Speaker 13: Ridge Bail, Ridge is ri dge. We're on GoFundMe. You

4422
03:57:29,720 --> 03:57:31,760
Speaker 13: can find us ano the Blue Ridge Community Bail Fund.

4423
03:57:32,240 --> 03:57:35,720
Speaker 13: We are on Instagram at Ridge Bail and we also

4424
03:57:35,800 --> 03:57:39,040
Speaker 13: have a website, Blue Ridge Bail Fund dot org.

4425
03:57:40,640 --> 03:57:42,800
Speaker 1: I think so you can google Blue Ridge Community Bail

4426
03:57:42,840 --> 03:57:46,520
Speaker 1: Fund will show up and yeah, if anybody is interested

4427
03:57:46,600 --> 03:57:48,760
Speaker 1: in starting a bail fund and wants to ask us

4428
03:57:48,760 --> 03:57:51,680
Speaker 1: any questions like please do we would love to talk

4429
03:57:51,760 --> 03:57:52,080
Speaker 1: about it.

4430
03:57:54,040 --> 03:57:56,800
Speaker 17: We've learned a lot through just reaching out to other

4431
03:57:56,960 --> 03:57:59,920
Speaker 17: bail funds, even if they're not in the state of Virginia,

4432
03:58:00,320 --> 03:58:03,280
Speaker 17: of how they reformed, what worked for them, what didn't.

4433
03:58:03,880 --> 03:58:08,600
Speaker 17: Just having a thirty minute conversation gives sometimes wonderful ideas

4434
03:58:08,640 --> 03:58:09,760
Speaker 17: on how to go forward.

4435
03:58:12,320 --> 03:58:14,360
Speaker 5: That's great. Thank you so much, guys. I think that

4436
03:58:14,480 --> 03:58:16,400
Speaker 5: was pretty good. Anything eys you want to share before

4437
03:58:16,400 --> 03:58:22,560
Speaker 5: we go, I think we're good. Thanks so much, Thank

4438
03:58:22,600 --> 03:58:24,360
Speaker 5: you for having us. Thanks.

4439
03:58:27,760 --> 03:58:30,880
Speaker 2: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4440
03:58:31,000 --> 03:58:32,880
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

4441
03:58:33,480 --> 03:58:35,800
Speaker 17: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

4442
03:58:36,080 --> 03:58:38,720
Speaker 17: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4443
03:58:38,760 --> 03:58:40,960
Speaker 17: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

4444
03:58:41,000 --> 03:58:44,400
Speaker 17: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

4445
03:58:44,840 --> 03:58:46,960
Speaker 17: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

4446
03:58:47,040 --> 03:58:51,040
Speaker 17: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.