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Speaker 1: Back in early Lei Shan was just another overworked magazine
Speaker 1: editor in Beijing. He was working for a Chinese financial magazine,
Speaker 1: his latest job of many type the magazine process, as
Speaker 1: you know, the production process is very long, from interview
Speaker 1: to writing and printing. It takes a long time. As
Speaker 1: you can imagine, there's always delays involved. I always felt
Speaker 1: like I wasn't in control of that. I'd have to
Speaker 1: stay up late into the night to finish the magazine.
Speaker 1: Just a few months later, Lee's life would change. He
Speaker 1: decided to start producing a business newsletter on a brand
Speaker 1: new app that was sweeping the country. In just a
Speaker 1: few months, that app, The Adult, went from being brand
Speaker 1: new to attracting millions of users. That name translates to
Speaker 1: mean I get in English. People go there to get
Speaker 1: daily advice and learn everything from music to economics. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a bit like Corsera and other online education services
Speaker 1: in the US. But the big difference is that under now,
Speaker 1: everybody is paying for what they read and listen to,
Speaker 1: bringing in money not just for the apps founders, but
Speaker 1: contributors to the magazine. Editor Lee Shang and his team
Speaker 1: are already generating the equivalent of millions of US dollars.
Speaker 1: Close to one hundred thousand fee paying subscribers. Each of
Speaker 1: them are paying an annual fee of one remnant B
Speaker 1: that's close to that's right for ten minutes of content
Speaker 1: per Lee's one hundred thousand customers pay around thirty dollars each.
Speaker 1: That's almost three million dollars in annual revenue. And it's
Speaker 1: made Lei Sian richer than he could have imagined back
Speaker 1: when he was still struggling with long hours and a
Speaker 1: salary job at the magazine. And he's not the only one.
Speaker 1: In China. Dao was just one of a vast economy
Speaker 1: of mobile apps where people like Lee Shung can make
Speaker 1: real money. Hi, I'm Brad Stone and I'm Selina Wang.
Speaker 1: And this week on Decrypted, we'll take a look at
Speaker 1: how China has been able to monetize their smartphone apps
Speaker 1: like no other country. China has dethroned the US as
Speaker 1: the largest spender on Apple's app store. People, they're spent
Speaker 1: more than two billion dollars in the fourth quarter alone.
Speaker 1: Now that's just a fraction of the total money China's
Speaker 1: consumers spend on apps, since most people there have Android devices.
Speaker 1: Much of this has to do with how China has
Speaker 1: figured out how to make money from news, entertainment and
Speaker 1: social media in a way that the U S still hasn't,
Speaker 1: by making people actually pay for it instead of relying
Speaker 1: on advertisers. China still has a reputation as a copycat
Speaker 1: of the West, but really it's Silicon Valley that's now
Speaker 1: scrambling to learn from the successives we've seen here across
Speaker 1: the Pacific. Selena, the Diao app now has seven million
Speaker 1: users and the service is only about a year old.
Speaker 1: Tell us what it looks like. It's a pretty clean
Speaker 1: looking app. You can easily subscribe to channels with content
Speaker 1: on topics like investing tips, or how to listen to
Speaker 1: classical music, or even books and magazines. And this is
Speaker 1: gonna make me really jealous, but people actually pay to
Speaker 1: subscribe to these channels. Yes, you heard that correctly. None
Speaker 1: of it is free. Each channel costs the equivalent of
Speaker 1: about thirty U S dollars per year. It can curate
Speaker 1: content for you as well. There's even a portal to
Speaker 1: an e commerce section that sells products like books and
Speaker 1: high end jewelry, and part of the subscription fee goes
Speaker 1: directly to people likely who create the content. Some of
Speaker 1: the columnists have even become millionaires, reasoning that they opened
Speaker 1: up column by an economics professor from Picking universident. Guess what,
Speaker 1: in just that month there are hundreds of thousands of
Speaker 1: subscriptions with a two hundred of buck ish so, which
Speaker 1: means this problems are generated therein a million. Okay, I
Speaker 1: am in just a month, he become the richest economists. Okay,
Speaker 1: economics reaches you know. That's Bob Shuhao Ping, who is
Speaker 1: one of the early investors into a doll and also
Speaker 1: happens to be the most successful angel investor in China.
Speaker 1: I spoke to him at a conference. Bob's venture capital firm,
Speaker 1: called Zen Fund, has made bets on hundreds of startups,
Speaker 1: some of which are now worth more than a billion
Speaker 1: dollars or publicly traded companies. So presumably Bob has a
Speaker 1: good idea for startups with potential. Yes, And I asked
Speaker 1: Bob why he decided to back Lord's He's the man
Speaker 1: who founded the dud app. We used to to look
Speaker 1: at the founder's profile for education side, for experience side,
Speaker 1: but the most important point to see is there as
Speaker 1: do they have whatever it takes to do? What do
Speaker 1: they want to do? So here's a bit on Lord
Speaker 1: zung you story. He was a TV producer before he
Speaker 1: started Logic Knowledge Group in twelve and that's the parent
Speaker 1: company of the Dodo app. Logic has a very big following,
Speaker 1: partly because Lord Zung is the celebrity in his own right.
Speaker 1: The company's public wheach Had account has nine million subscribers
Speaker 1: in Lord Zungi has an online talk show that gets
Speaker 1: two point four million views per episode. Okay, so with
Speaker 1: all this firepower did that was? Growth is skyrocketing. But
Speaker 1: Dido is facing a ton of competitions as well, from
Speaker 1: companies like do Ban who in Shi Malaya right, and
Speaker 1: not to mention ten Cent, the Chinese internet giant, right,
Speaker 1: and they all allow official channels to charge users for content.
Speaker 1: But Bob, the legendary angel investor, says Dondo isn't simply
Speaker 1: a promising company that's growing fast. He thinks this company
Speaker 1: is going to be truly transformative. This is I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, largest this company actually created uh this revolution.
Speaker 1: So now there is a heat in China, golden rush
Speaker 1: in knowledge paying services. Iob has seen a lot in
Speaker 1: the sixty years. He lived through China's cultural revolution and
Speaker 1: delivered pizzas before going on to found China's leading private
Speaker 1: education company. So it's high praise for him to say,
Speaker 1: Dadao has started a gold rush in China. Actually, this
Speaker 1: company actually created a revolution in China. We call it
Speaker 1: a tru translated, the literary is a knowledge payment. You
Speaker 1: pay a fee to knowledge. Le Shang, the magazine editor
Speaker 1: we heard from earlier, couldn't have known how all of
Speaker 1: this would play out when Lords and the founder of
Speaker 1: a first approached him about brainstorming different ways that journalists
Speaker 1: could get paid for their work. Before the adult Le
Speaker 1: Shang had worked out a string of different magazines, including
Speaker 1: the Chinese language version of Bloomberg Business Weeks Now school, Yes,
Speaker 1: this is my full time job. Now. When I started,
Speaker 1: I didn't expect as much attention. I didn't tell my
Speaker 1: friends or Luo gen you. When I started, I treated
Speaker 1: as an experiments through the process. I discussed with Luo
Speaker 1: gen You about different ways of providing content without advertise months.
Speaker 1: He mentioned the idea of an app that asks user
Speaker 1: to pay a fee to subscribe for content. The story
Speaker 1: seems incredible, but it isn't as rare as you might think.
Speaker 1: Lee told me he knows other journalists who have left
Speaker 1: traditional news organizations to work for themselves and making content
Speaker 1: for apps like Dell Adult or the messaging platform we Chat.
Speaker 1: Just as you know, many of the journalists in China
Speaker 1: and many of the content producers moved their careers to
Speaker 1: new media. On we Chat, it has a free subscription chat.
Speaker 1: What Lee means they're by free subscription channel is that
Speaker 1: anyone can set one up. And this trend of paying
Speaker 1: for online content goes way beyond just education. Video live
Speaker 1: streaming is another huge area. This is where people watch
Speaker 1: anything from people singing, telling jokes, are just going about
Speaker 1: their daily lives. Think of those random videos you can
Speaker 1: find on YouTube but happening live and Credit Suite estimates
Speaker 1: video a live streaming alone could generate about five billion
Speaker 1: dollars this year in China. The fact live streaming has
Speaker 1: become so popular means thousands, maybe millions of people are
Speaker 1: able to earn a living this way. Here's Bob, it's
Speaker 1: a national past of time. There's this guy for the
Speaker 1: year for some man. He spent that literally okay a
Speaker 1: million dollar on live screaming service, paying too many many minute.
Speaker 1: We quired a whole hostessess and he appeared that until
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, it's my way of appreciating them, supporting them.
Speaker 1: But you know, that's a very unusual story. But a
Speaker 1: many people would have spending lots of money, spend a fortune.
Speaker 1: The hostess is Bob's talking about, are just regular people
Speaker 1: finding they can make a live been talking to or
Speaker 1: performing for live viewers. People can watch for free, but
Speaker 1: hostesses make money because people show their adoration by sending
Speaker 1: them virtual gifts. It's just so different from how the
Speaker 1: big internet services operate in the US. It's really hard
Speaker 1: to imagine Twitter, for example, asking users to pay before
Speaker 1: they could follow someone. It's even harder to imagine that
Speaker 1: Twitter users would accept that. In China. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we don't really talk about advertising supported model UM. You know,
Speaker 1: whether it's on PC or a mobile UM. There are
Speaker 1: very few start ups that actually UM growing very big.
Speaker 1: You know, on the back of just advertising and obviously
Speaker 1: by dool with such. You know, it's a very classical model.
Speaker 1: But beyond the search based advertising model, you'll find that
Speaker 1: most of the large internet companies in China actually grugle
Speaker 1: or monetized by charging the consumer directly. That's Jenny Lee,
Speaker 1: a venture capitalist at g g V. I think that
Speaker 1: the the whole idea of having to you know, look
Speaker 1: that d before you can access the video. Um, it's
Speaker 1: just not a very direct way of enjoying the features.
Speaker 1: Chinese entrepreneurs, I have to say, they're very practical if
Speaker 1: they can get, you know, the consumer to pay them directly,
Speaker 1: I think that's what they're gonna do. You know, in
Speaker 1: the US, both the companies that make these apps and
Speaker 1: the content creators would absolutely love it if consumers paid
Speaker 1: them directly. Right, But as yet, there aren't many examples
Speaker 1: of big successful companies that have been able to escape
Speaker 1: their dependence on advertising. Well, they can know why the
Speaker 1: Chinese apps have been so much more successful at this
Speaker 1: than their ad dependent U S counterparts. Right after ironically
Speaker 1: this word from our sponsor, you know where you want
Speaker 1: to be? Red Hat has the broad portfolio of open
Speaker 1: source technologies to get you there. Meet your evolving business
Speaker 1: challenges head on with secure solutions for the enterprise including
Speaker 1: Linux platforms and containers, hybrid cloud infrastructure, application integration and development,
Speaker 1: operations management, and beyond. Visit red hat dot com slash
Speaker 1: open tech to learn more. Red hat the open technology
Speaker 1: to help you realize your vision. Before the break, we
Speaker 1: learned the Chinese consumers somehow seem to be so much
Speaker 1: more willing to pay for what they read or watch
Speaker 1: on their phones. Now, Bob has one theory as to
Speaker 1: why that might be the case. Chinese people, relatively compared
Speaker 1: to the US, they are lack awful uh more ways
Speaker 1: of the entertainment. Okay, many things in the available here
Speaker 1: in the US maybe not available in China. Bob is
Speaker 1: talking about the Chinese government strict regulation of media. That
Speaker 1: means the type of information and entertainment that Chinese consumers
Speaker 1: can read or watch as much more limited than in
Speaker 1: the West. And you also have cultural and demographic forces
Speaker 1: at work here in China. Tens of millions of young
Speaker 1: people have migrated to the large industrial cities. They live
Speaker 1: far away from their families, so video livestream in particular
Speaker 1: has become a form of digital companionship. In the US,
Speaker 1: we think of Facebook Live and Periscope as live streaming
Speaker 1: tools to broadcast or watch events, right. But in China,
Speaker 1: many of these streams are people doing very ordinary things
Speaker 1: like putting on makeup, giving advice, or eating food, and
Speaker 1: it's enormously popular. Some estimates say that more than three
Speaker 1: twelve million Chinese users consume live stream video in one
Speaker 1: way or another. Okay, so that helps us understand why
Speaker 1: people are consuming so much of this content, but does
Speaker 1: it explain why they are paying for it? I think
Speaker 1: China is su pine the whole um free to play model.
Speaker 1: In the West, it was always playing um, you know,
Speaker 1: it was always paying for a time um. And it's
Speaker 1: it's critical because the whole ecosystem shift one where the
Speaker 1: product has to be better designed to cater to the consumer,
Speaker 1: because if they're not well done, if the features are
Speaker 1: not appropriate, the consumers are gonna pay directly. Um. And
Speaker 1: that's key. That was the venture capitalist Jenny And this
Speaker 1: free to play model that she mentioned is a term
Speaker 1: that emerged from the world of video games. It refers
Speaker 1: to the games that won't charge you for playing, but
Speaker 1: you do get the option of paying for all kinds
Speaker 1: of things that make the game more enjoyable for you.
Speaker 1: So they hook you in with the zero dollar price tag,
Speaker 1: and then before you know it, even the paying for
Speaker 1: this and that upgrade. And these games are everywhere in China,
Speaker 1: and Jenny thinks those games made this act of paying
Speaker 1: for content seem normal. So now for most people it's
Speaker 1: just a habit. The rapid rise of knowledge sharing apps
Speaker 1: like the Adult might satisfy another source of anxiety in
Speaker 1: Chinese society. There's a hunger of ledge, there's a hunger
Speaker 1: of quality contents trying. This is Bob, the early investor
Speaker 1: in Doda, who we met earlier in the show. So
Speaker 1: Chinese people in general, okay, they are eager to study.
Speaker 1: They're eager to enrich themselves not only in money, okay,
Speaker 1: but also in thoughts, in ideas. I think that there
Speaker 1: is a true, you know, hunger and my Chinese people
Speaker 1: to have quality knowledge, quality ideas, satisfying the intellectual curiosity
Speaker 1: of China's new middle class. Yeah, and in particular, the
Speaker 1: venture investor Jenny V said, you know, if you think
Speaker 1: about the millenniums today, China is over three million millenniums
Speaker 1: h below thirty five, they're no longer that young, right.
Speaker 1: This is a this is a population that have graduated.
Speaker 1: You know, they are in the workforce, some of them, uh,
Speaker 1: they're married. The cause of leaving in China means that
Speaker 1: most of them don't have their own home. Part of
Speaker 1: that translate into uh, the should continue to invest back
Speaker 1: into their own learning and education. We'd be remiss if
Speaker 1: we didn't mention how much the shift to mobile computing
Speaker 1: has played a role in the way people use the
Speaker 1: Internet in China. For millions of people in China, a
Speaker 1: smartphone was their first Internet connected device. They may not
Speaker 1: have money for a computer or laptop, but companies like
Speaker 1: show me we're selling phones at very affordable prices. So
Speaker 1: you know, when when the mobile phone becomes your only
Speaker 1: access to the Internet, you actually do everything there, right,
Speaker 1: because it's it's your point of sale to a certain extend,
Speaker 1: your point of access to information, uh, to commerce, and
Speaker 1: you know, to consumption. Now I want to focus on
Speaker 1: commerce for a moment. China never had an established credit
Speaker 1: card system like in the US, so with your arrival
Speaker 1: of smartphones, China leap frog to mobile payments. That explains
Speaker 1: the rise of we chat and Alley Pay, which connect
Speaker 1: your phone to your bank account. Now, some Western listeners
Speaker 1: are probably thinking, sure they have Venmo or Apple Pay
Speaker 1: or Google Wallet. But just to put things in perspective,
Speaker 1: China's mobile payment market is nearly fifty times bigger than
Speaker 1: in the US. Ali Pay started out as the online
Speaker 1: payments processor for Ali Baba's e commerce sites, and we
Speaker 1: Chat pay is the payment service linked to ten cents
Speaker 1: ubiquitous social messaging app. These two services operate in a
Speaker 1: market that's already worth five point five trillion dollars geez.
Speaker 1: Just to put this in perspective, for those of us
Speaker 1: in the US who are used to using messaging apps
Speaker 1: only for messaging all, this might sound strange, but Chinese
Speaker 1: consumers use we chat for everything from paying for groceries
Speaker 1: to taxis to booking manicures. The mobile payment in China proper,
Speaker 1: it is that most convenient in the whole. That's Bob again,
Speaker 1: the Angel Investor. You can people even one buck, We
Speaker 1: got that paying the feet. So people are extremely covetable
Speaker 1: using mobile phone to make a payment. So, in other words,
Speaker 1: China already had the systems and habits in place to
Speaker 1: make it really easy for people to spend money on
Speaker 1: these various apps. After all, you wouldn't pay for something
Speaker 1: if it wasn't easy to do. The latest twist on
Speaker 1: all of this is that in China, online shopping has
Speaker 1: started to converge with what we normally think of as
Speaker 1: social media. So, Selena, what's the difference here? Why haven't Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest,
Speaker 1: etcetera been able to get users buying things on their apps.
Speaker 1: I spoke to Richardly recently. He's the CEO of JD
Speaker 1: dot Com, the second largest online retailer in China. He
Speaker 1: thinks that even huge companies like Facebook need to get
Speaker 1: even bigger to turn users into customers. Only in China,
Speaker 1: tess and full owned of the social media that they have,
Speaker 1: they are almost chefs. So I mean Facebook on Amazon
Speaker 1: is what he's saying is. Richard thinks that the China
Speaker 1: model would only work in the U s if Facebook
Speaker 1: or Google acquired a part of Amazon, so that our
Speaker 1: incentives would be aligned to boost each other. And that,
Speaker 1: of course, is incredibly unlikely. It's somewhat more probable that
Speaker 1: Amazon might acquire or build its own social media tool.
Speaker 1: But borring that, what's it going to take for American
Speaker 1: Internet users to feel like spending money on the mobile
Speaker 1: amps they have on their phones. It's exciting, Uh innovation
Speaker 1: only in China. So many of people are not trying
Speaker 1: to copy it, uh, you know to America. Many Chinese companies, okay,
Speaker 1: they want to do that scene of things, you know
Speaker 1: to America. Basically, Bob thinks it will be Chinese companies,
Speaker 1: not US companies bringing about this change. In fact, we're
Speaker 1: already starting to see that happen. You know. The one
Speaker 1: time we use is called KFC. It's a call by
Speaker 1: which is the Chinese copy from China. Charles Fan is
Speaker 1: a ct of Cheetah Mobile. It's a publicly traded Beijing
Speaker 1: based company that makes utility apps for smartphones. He noticed
Speaker 1: a few years ago that there was huge opportunity to
Speaker 1: make money by copying Chinese app innovations and bringing them
Speaker 1: to America. I think we'll be moible KFC content where
Speaker 1: something like mobile payment, like live broadcasting kind of the
Speaker 1: first see site success in China and then and then
Speaker 1: go to other countries including US. First of all, they're
Speaker 1: going to need an acronym other than KFC. But it
Speaker 1: is interesting because for a long time there was an
Speaker 1: arrogance in the West around China copying our ideas, not
Speaker 1: the other way around. And today the fast growing part
Speaker 1: of Cheetah Mobile's business is its live streaming service live
Speaker 1: dot Me, which targets the US market. The app only
Speaker 1: launched a year ago and it already has more than
Speaker 1: twenty million users and more than two hundred thousand hours
Speaker 1: of content stream daily. So it seems like there is
Speaker 1: a possibility that US consumers are catching on the trends
Speaker 1: like watching live stream video and paying for at least
Speaker 1: some form of virtual content. We have proven them wrong, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, just by by practice. Uh. The in turned out.
Speaker 1: You know that the scale our population might not be
Speaker 1: quite at a level of China. But the the answer
Speaker 1: to both questions seems to be yes, Yes, there are
Speaker 1: enough people who are interested in broadcasting and while watching broadcasts, uh.
Speaker 1: And there are people who are willing to pay for
Speaker 1: virtual gifts. That said, there are also US based companies
Speaker 1: that are starting to pick up on some elements of
Speaker 1: Chinese apps today. I think that there's so much learning
Speaker 1: between US and China market that a lot of the
Speaker 1: US internet places uh and companies are realizing that they
Speaker 1: need to add that social element. They need to add
Speaker 1: the gamification element and the whole virtual currencies elements. Now.
Speaker 1: A good example of this is Twitch, which is a
Speaker 1: site actually owned by Amazon where you can watch people
Speaker 1: play video games. It's planning to make it easier for
Speaker 1: the gamers that stream themselves, these content creators to make
Speaker 1: money on the site with a feature called Cheering that
Speaker 1: lets fans buy animated emoticons and send them to their
Speaker 1: favorite video game stars. That sounds kind of similar to
Speaker 1: the virtual gifting that we've seen with the live streaming
Speaker 1: apps in China. Yeah, and Twitch has already had success
Speaker 1: allowing its biggest stars to collect not just ad revenue,
Speaker 1: but also a subscription fee from their viewers, which is
Speaker 1: of course shared between Twitch and the stars. What are
Speaker 1: some other examples, Well, Apple's eye Message has added stickers
Speaker 1: that you can pay for, Facebook allows you to pay
Speaker 1: for things inside its messaging platform, and Snapchat has talked
Speaker 1: about adding premium filters that charge of view. These are
Speaker 1: all interesting, but none of them have achieved the scale
Speaker 1: or success of what's happening in China. I'm mean, Brad,
Speaker 1: do you have a bank account connected to Facebook or Snapchat?
Speaker 1: I certainly don't that would be a negative. Although I
Speaker 1: am more willing these days to use something like PayPal
Speaker 1: to pay for pieces of content online. And that's true.
Speaker 1: I mean I have considered now and then maybe switching
Speaker 1: from Venmo and paying my friend through Facebook. I could.
Speaker 1: I could see it happening potentially in the future. It's
Speaker 1: also probably worth noting here, Selena, that over the last
Speaker 1: couple of months, some major newspapers like The New York
Speaker 1: Times the Wall Street Journal have seen tremendous growth in
Speaker 1: their digital subscriptions. So it does seem like Western are
Speaker 1: becoming a little more comfortable with the idea of paying
Speaker 1: for digital content. Definitely, a lot of these innovations in
Speaker 1: China are coming as a whole news industry is kind
Speaker 1: of being upended as we're all searching for ways to
Speaker 1: make money beyond ads. So I think that a lot
Speaker 1: of the success is over there, give us some hope
Speaker 1: over here. It does seem like the thing that we
Speaker 1: haven't gotten to here in the in the West was
Speaker 1: an idea that was very popular early on in the Internet,
Speaker 1: and that's people paying for micro content for individual articles
Speaker 1: or in vidual as we say earlier in the in
Speaker 1: the show programs like live streams. That's the thing that
Speaker 1: perhaps people aren't quite comfortable with yet. But tell us, Alina,
Speaker 1: what's the magazine and editor Lee Shang up to today. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean he's already pulling in millions of dollars in
Speaker 1: revenue from just one daily column, so he's really thinking
Speaker 1: about what's next. Well, we foresee a big change of
Speaker 1: my team and my company in terms of the content
Speaker 1: and the business model. Well, our current users are only
Speaker 1: coming from this one product. In the future, we're looking
Speaker 1: to launch more products and more programs. Uh, the current
Speaker 1: one is just focused on business and opinion. We're exploring
Speaker 1: other products in the future. And that's it for this
Speaker 1: week's to crypt It. Thanks for listening. Please get in touch.
Speaker 1: You can record a voice message and send it to
Speaker 1: us at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net or I'm on
Speaker 1: Twitter at Selena Underscore, Why Underscore Wang, and I'm at
Speaker 1: brad Stone. Please subscribe to our show wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. While you're there, please leave us a rating
Speaker 1: and a review. It really helps more listeners find our show.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Pia gadkari Aki, Edo, Liz Smith,
Speaker 1: and Magnus Hendrickson. Thanks to Nico Grant, who helped with
Speaker 1: some research for today's show, and to Lilian Chen who
Speaker 1: helped with Mandarin translation. Robin and Jello edited my print
Speaker 1: story about the ap economy in China, which you can
Speaker 1: read at Bloomberg dot com slash Tech. Alec McCabe's head
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Podcasts, We'll see you next week. Decrypted is
Speaker 1: brought to you by red Hat, whose broad port folio
Speaker 1: of open source technologies for the enterprise helps you get
Speaker 1: from where you are to where you want to be.
Speaker 1: Red Hat the open technology to help you realize your vision.
Speaker 1: Learn more at red hat dot com, slash open Tech,