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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. In

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Speaker 1: this season, we are going chapter by chapter of a

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Speaker 1: great new book that pulls together all of the social

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Speaker 1: science that we have so far peer reviewed social science

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Speaker 1: on climate obstruction globally. It's called Climate Obstruction a Global Assessment.

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Speaker 1: It's been pulled together by the Climate Social Science Network

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Speaker 1: at Brown, which includes hundreds of social scientists working all

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Speaker 1: over the world on trying to understand this issue. Today

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Speaker 1: we are digging into a subject that is near and

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Speaker 1: dear to my heart, the role of pr and media

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Speaker 1: in climate obstruction. And to do that, I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: two people who have been guests on this show before,

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Speaker 1: Melissa Aronchek at Rutgers University and Max Boykoff from the

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Speaker 1: University of Colorado at Boulder. We had a great conversation

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Speaker 1: about the role that media plays both in helping to

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Speaker 1: shape the public's understanding of climate and therefore the role

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Speaker 1: it can play in obstruction, especially if it is targeted

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Speaker 1: by bad faith actors, which it often is. It is

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Speaker 1: a super interesting conversation. I hope you enjoy it as

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Speaker 1: much as I did. That's coming up right after this

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Speaker 1: quick break.

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Speaker 2: My name is Max Boycott. I'm a professor here in

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Speaker 2: environmental studies and a fellow in the Cooperative Institute for

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Speaker 2: Research and Environmental Sciences at the University of Colorado Bowlder

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Speaker 2: in the US.

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Speaker 3: I'm Melissa Aaronjik. I'm a professor in the School of

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Speaker 3: Communication and Information at Rutgers University in New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: So I've probably talked to both of you about this

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Speaker 1: separately before, but it does seem to me that the

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Speaker 1: media fin avoids responsibility for climate obstruction or for playing

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Speaker 1: any kind of a role in it. I think you

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Speaker 1: show really clearly hear how it's kind of been used

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Speaker 1: as a tool. So I want to kind of start

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Speaker 1: by having you explain how, particularly the weaponization of this

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Speaker 1: journalistic norm balanced reporting has contributed to the disparity between

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Speaker 1: scientific consensus and the public's understanding of climate change.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm happy to start us off, and if you'll

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Speaker 2: allow me to back out just a little bit to

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Speaker 2: answer that question. And I think if we look back

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Speaker 2: through time we can track in our group, the Media

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Speaker 2: Climate Change Observatory has done this where we've tracked media

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Speaker 2: coverage of climate change over time, and it really came

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Speaker 2: into public consciousness and into the news starting the late

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighties, and when that was happening, it was a

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Speaker 2: new story to tell, and there a lot of different

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Speaker 2: journalists and actors trying to make sense of what was

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Speaker 2: going on and how to tell these stories. And as

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Speaker 2: time went on, though, there was you know, in the

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Speaker 2: late nineteen eighties was the establishment of the IPCC, the

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Speaker 2: and a governmental pedaloid climate change. There was increasing understanding

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Speaker 2: within the scientific community that humans contribute to climate change.

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Speaker 2: And so from that period of time, journalism, as we've

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Speaker 2: tracked it through various studies, had tried to make sense

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Speaker 2: of that. And as they did that, and as they

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Speaker 2: started to drawn expert voices and others to give them

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Speaker 2: a sense of where science was on human contributions to

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Speaker 2: climate change, journalists leaned back into their journalistic norms, including

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Speaker 2: the journalistic normal balanced reporting, which one perspective to get

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Speaker 2: another and help reader or the viewer the listener makes

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Speaker 2: sense of what's going on. And so some early research

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Speaker 2: that I had done with my brother, Jules Boykoff, who's

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Speaker 2: at Pacific University and Political Science, we had just taken

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Speaker 2: a look at how had US media been covering it

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Speaker 2: from that time in the late nineteen eighties through at

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Speaker 2: that point in two thousand and two when we finished

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Speaker 2: up the study, and while there had been that conversion

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Speaker 2: agreement in the scientific community and that had been communicated

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Speaker 2: clearly through Dinner Governmental Panel and climate change assessments, that

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Speaker 2: we had found that the journalistic community had continued to

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Speaker 2: tell this quote unquote balance story and in so doing

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Speaker 2: had perpetrated an informational bias and actually skewed the conversations

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Speaker 2: in the public arena. And you know, part of the

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Speaker 2: reason that we make those claims, and then others have

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Speaker 2: also been looking at this Ober time, is that you know,

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Speaker 2: quite frankly, people don't pick up peer review literature of

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Speaker 2: the IPCC assessment reports. They rely on news coverage to

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Speaker 2: help make sense of what's going on around them, and

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Speaker 2: so news become this important bridge and this powerful driver

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Speaker 2: of public conversation station. There has been a learning going on,

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Speaker 2: a maturation or just sort of an integration of new

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Speaker 2: understanding within the journalistic community. So we had put out

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Speaker 2: that study, it actually gained traction. It ended up in

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Speaker 2: al Gore's and Inconvenient Truth just briefly mentioned, so it

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Speaker 2: got a lot more attention and journalists some were very

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Speaker 2: eager to think carefully and recalibrate how they're telling these

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Speaker 2: stories through their own reporting. Others, you know, weren't quite

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Speaker 2: as receptive to that messaging and critique. But nonetheless, you know,

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Speaker 2: we did some follow up work years later and found

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Speaker 2: that that coverage had improved it, you know, when we

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Speaker 2: looked it's with another collection of researchers here, led by

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Speaker 2: Lucy mckelister. When we looked at it again in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty one, we found that there had been tremendous improvements

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Speaker 2: in US press along with UK, Australian, Canadian and New

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Speaker 2: Zealand newspapers. But there it still isn't one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, the way in which we went

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Speaker 2: about it to look at the unit of analysis being

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Speaker 2: each newspaper article. We can still see there's this room

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Speaker 2: for improvement. But if somebody's picking up the paper and

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Speaker 2: reading a very influential piece that isn't accurate, that is

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Speaker 2: still falling, whether unwittingly or wittingly, to this sort of

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Speaker 2: quote unquote balanced reporting that they themselves then start to

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Speaker 2: get a skewed views. Still to this very day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if I've ever told either or

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Speaker 1: maybe both of you this story. But I had I

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Speaker 1: had this experience directly with I was a stringer at

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post for a while, and like, because where

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Speaker 1: I lived, that meant covering a lot of wildfires. And

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Speaker 1: I went, I covered a fire once and the cal

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Speaker 1: fire chief told me, give me this like very simple

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Speaker 1: explanation for why fires were burning for so much longer

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Speaker 1: now than they had. And this was, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: wasn't that long ago. This was probably like twenty fifteen ish,

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Speaker 1: and and he said, you know, are you from California.

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Speaker 1: I said yes, And he said, well, you probably remember

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Speaker 1: when you were growing up that you would like go

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Speaker 1: to bout at night and the fire would be twenty

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Speaker 1: percent contained, and you'd wake up in the morning and

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Speaker 1: it would be like sixty percent contained or at least fifty.

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Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, that was that was the norm,

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Speaker 1: you know. And he said, yeah, that's how it used

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Speaker 1: to work because it would get cool and humidity would

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Speaker 1: increase at night. And now that doesn't happen anymore. So

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Speaker 1: these fires are burning like the same intensity twenty four

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Speaker 1: to seven and that's why they're getting so big, and

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Speaker 1: that's climate change. And I was like, wow, what a great,

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Speaker 1: like simple way to understand that. And I put it

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Speaker 1: on this story and my editor, who at the time

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Speaker 1: was the national editor of the Washington Post, suggested taking

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Speaker 1: out the part where he said that's climate change because

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Speaker 1: and his comment was, this is a wildfire story, not

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Speaker 1: a politics story. I said, like, I had been a

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Speaker 1: climate reporter for a long time, so I knew enough

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Speaker 1: to kind of push back on that and say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's an industry talking point. There's nothing political

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Speaker 1: about what he's saying, you do, and he like, O,

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Speaker 1: listen to me and let me keep it in. But

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Speaker 1: the average person that's just like getting sent off to

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Speaker 1: you know, cover a flutter of fire, is not necessarily

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Speaker 1: going to feel confident, you know, saying oh, you're wrong,

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Speaker 1: it's not political. But like, you know, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that that guy was being hounded by exon every day.

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Speaker 1: It was just so ingrained in him that like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I think of it every time I think

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Speaker 1: about this, because it's it was such a simple way

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Speaker 1: that that stuff like creeps in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, Obviously the media is not coming up with

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Speaker 1: this stuff on their own. What entities are working to

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Speaker 1: serve up misleading climate narratives to the media or ensure

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Speaker 1: that people who are like spokespeople for the industry or

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Speaker 1: who carry water for them and their ideas are given

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Speaker 1: a voice in the media.

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Speaker 3: Well, are you asking Amy about public relations firms outages

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Speaker 3: looking for fossil fuel?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like the like broad ecosystem of like people that

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Speaker 1: are approaching the media with these narratives or talking points.

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Speaker 1: I would think of PR firms maybe like internal PR folks, companies,

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Speaker 1: prink tanks, I think are doing a fair bit, you know,

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Speaker 1: that whole ecosystem.

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Speaker 3: What does it look like. Well, one thing we need

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Speaker 3: to think about is the network of influence. That's really

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Speaker 3: something that has taken us a while to really get

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Speaker 3: our thinking around. And I think, you know, we're still

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Speaker 3: finding connections that we didn't really know existed, which is

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Speaker 3: kind of amazing. At least since the nineteen seventies, we

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Speaker 3: have started to see connections among not just media platforms

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Speaker 3: and people who set the agenda in the media, but

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Speaker 3: think tanks, research centers, private donors, lobbyists, and lawyers PR firms.

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Speaker 3: We're starting to get better and better evidence of this network,

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Speaker 3: and both journalists and researchers are uncovered just how far

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Speaker 3: back these relationships of denial go. But I do think

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Speaker 3: it's also important to remember that we're you know, all

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Speaker 3: of those groups I just mentioned operate in society and

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Speaker 3: that society in general, and really, you know, if we

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Speaker 3: just again zoom out from fossil fuels per se and

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Speaker 3: just look at our entire consumer society, the way our

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Speaker 3: lifestyles are set up right now, the status quo is

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Speaker 3: one in which fossil fuels play a very big role,

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Speaker 3: and it's very hard for people to imagine alternatives, especially

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Speaker 3: when we don't see a lot of presentation of those

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Speaker 3: alternatives in public communication. So it's a very vast and

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Speaker 3: really has been for a long time, very intractable problem

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Speaker 3: that we've been trying to work through.

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Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, I mean we can draw links directly from

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Speaker 2: through the structures from who owns a lot of the

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Speaker 2: corporate media. But then also, as you mentioned, Mellissa, that

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Speaker 2: just the pr the way that these firms are so influential,

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Speaker 2: the way they play roles in the network developing strategy,

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Speaker 2: we really get immersed if you're watching commercial television just

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Speaker 2: with all kinds of marketing and imagery and assertions that

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Speaker 2: can at times be seen as greenwashing. But then on

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Speaker 2: top of that, you know, at the very core, we're

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Speaker 2: primed to fall into this because we've got a lot

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Speaker 2: of other things that we want to focus in on.

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Speaker 2: We don't have to worry about it. And so when

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Speaker 2: this sort of apparatus, when it flows through courses, through

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Speaker 2: the veins of our lives, we take it. We're ready

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Speaker 2: for it. Would just say all right, let's focus in

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Speaker 2: on other things. And so this apparatus gives us that

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Speaker 2: opportunity to not have to face it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned four key contrarian viewpoints that are amplified

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Speaker 1: by the media, and I wonder if I could have

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Speaker 1: you name those and talk about how you or the

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Speaker 1: research that you were looking at honed in on those

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Speaker 1: four Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One really influential source for thinking about these four viewpoints

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Speaker 3: these kind of arguments for climate delay comes from the

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Speaker 3: scholar William Lamb and collaborators. It's in the academic Journal

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Speaker 3: of Global Sustainability, and it's really become a go to

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Speaker 3: source for a lot of us. They have this fantastic

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Speaker 3: chart which summarizes the argument, so it's very useful. So

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Speaker 3: the first argument for climate delay is to suggest that

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Speaker 3: someone else should take actions first, so in other words,

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Speaker 3: redirecting responsibility for the problem away from themselves, which in

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Speaker 3: this case would often be a fossil fuel company onto

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Speaker 3: somebody else. So the classic one is suggesting that consumers themselves,

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Speaker 3: individuals themselves should take actions to address climate change, you know,

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Speaker 3: recycle for instance. The second argument has to do with

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Speaker 3: saying that we can't mitigate climate change. It's simply not possible.

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Speaker 3: You have to just kind of give in to the

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Speaker 3: fact that it's never going to happen. And you've seen

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Speaker 3: a lot of arguments like that, especially by climate deni

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Speaker 3: as saying, you know, change is just impossible. We can't

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Speaker 3: change our current way of life, we can't do that,

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Speaker 3: or saying it's basically a catastrophe and you know, doom

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Speaker 3: and bloom apocalypse, there's nothing to be done. There's a

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Speaker 3: third argument, which is actually a little more insidious, where

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Speaker 3: fossil fuel companies will push non transformative solutions. That's how

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Speaker 3: Lamb and his collaborators put it. And you know, this

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Speaker 3: one's insidious because it seems like solutions are just around

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Speaker 3: the corner, but in fact these solutions are very problematic

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Speaker 3: and often really backwards. One would be to say future

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Speaker 3: technologies are going to solve the problem, so you know,

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Speaker 3: we don't have to worry now because in the future

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Speaker 3: we'll have AI solving climate change. These kind of very vague,

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Speaker 3: very always future focused ideas for how the problem will

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Speaker 3: be solved. Another one is to say you can't restrict

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Speaker 3: or regulate companies because then they won't be able to

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Speaker 3: come up with solutions for climate change, so you have

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Speaker 3: to kind of give them time to figure it out.

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Speaker 3: Yet again, this future facing solutionism. Again, these are problematic

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Speaker 3: because they seem like, back to what Max was saying

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Speaker 3: a moment ago, they seem to make us feel better,

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Speaker 3: and they make us feel like we don't have to

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Speaker 3: do anything that you know, companies have. It's kind of

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Speaker 3: the opposite from the redirect responsibility frame anyway. And then

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Speaker 3: the last one is about emphasizing all of the problems

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Speaker 3: with the solutions that are being proposed that are viable. So,

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Speaker 3: for instance, you've got a solution in mind which involves

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Speaker 3: social justice, but you know that means that vulnerable members

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Speaker 3: of our society might have to bear the brunt of

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Speaker 3: the solutions, So we can't do that. We need solutions

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Speaker 3: that work for everyone. Otherwise we shouldn't have solutions at all.

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Speaker 3: So these discourse types to be fancy shows this tendency

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Speaker 3: among actors of disinformation to actually move away from overt denial,

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Speaker 3: like moving away from saying climate change isn't happening, it's

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Speaker 3: not real, and having more subtle tactics to just undo

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Speaker 3: or delegitimate climate solutions just by saying that they're not

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Speaker 3: going to work for a variety of reasons.

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Speaker 2: It could be a good opportunity to just to point

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Speaker 2: out that Melissa and I were leading on this chapter

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Speaker 2: where we were essentially pulling together a lot of the

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Speaker 2: current research to help us understand how this discourse is

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Speaker 2: being steered through news, social media, advertising, public relations, and

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Speaker 2: we led on this chapter, but Trav Cone, Maanelas, and

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Speaker 2: Hannah Morris and Chris Russell also contributed to this. So

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Speaker 2: it was a great opportunity for us to pull together

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Speaker 2: this kind of research from William Lamb and colleagues and

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Speaker 2: others to help provide a bit more of a cogent picture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love that study. The graphic so simple,

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Speaker 1: but like it's so helpful. Okay, so you mentioned social

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Speaker 1: media there Obviously, the media itself has gone through quite

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Speaker 1: a few pretty big transitions over the last couple decades.

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Speaker 1: How have those transitions contributed to the ability of corporations

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Speaker 1: and PR firms and these other entities that you've mentioned

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Speaker 1: to really kind of hijack the new even more, or

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Speaker 1: push even legacy media to kind of amplify these sorts

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Speaker 1: of talking points.

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Speaker 3: Well, it will be no surprise to anyone if I

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Speaker 3: say that in the Western hemisphere, at least in the

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Speaker 3: global North, our media are in crisis, especially news media,

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Speaker 3: and even more in trouble our legacy news media such

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Speaker 3: as radio and newspapers, which are dealing with economic and

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Speaker 3: political crises as well as extreme political polarization, which has

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Speaker 3: shattered the sense among a lot of the public that

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Speaker 3: our news outlets provide fact based and reliable information. That's

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Speaker 3: kind of the current picture. But it has been quite

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Speaker 3: a while now that oil and gas producers and their

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Speaker 3: collaborators have actively worked with both legacy news and social

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Speaker 3: media platforms, as well as PR firms and advertising agencies

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Speaker 3: to promote disinformation that obstricts climate policy. Max talked about

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Speaker 3: the news balance, but we've also seen how oil and

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Speaker 3: gas companies do source building with journalists to promote their

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Speaker 3: industry point of view and news coverage. But then, of

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Speaker 3: course we also have social media where there's less of

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Speaker 3: an intermediary or date keeping function, so oil and gas

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Speaker 3: companies can pretty much post whatever they want. Not to

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Speaker 3: mention blogs, instant messaging, and because our mainstream media is

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Speaker 3: under corporate control, and because their business model needs advertising

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Speaker 3: revenue to stay afloat, it has also become harder and

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Speaker 3: harder for news to remain separate from promotional content. Yes,

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Speaker 3: I don't you know, there's even more we could say.

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Speaker 3: We talk about this in the chapter for the book.

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Speaker 3: We have these newer kinds of threats with emerging digital

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Speaker 3: technologies and social media. Because now disinformation campaigns can operate

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Speaker 3: at a massive scale and scope, they can target certain

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Speaker 3: groups much more precisely. You have technology companies and their

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Speaker 3: platforms that let powerful actors shape information in ways that

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Speaker 3: lack accountability. And on top of everything else, we have

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Speaker 3: the explosion of artificial intelligence, which is changing at day

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Speaker 3: and is incredibly difficult to detect and predict. Not to

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Speaker 3: mention the environmental costs of AI use, the energy consumption

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Speaker 3: generated by AI, the waste generated by AI systems, especially

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Speaker 3: data centers, which contribute to greenhouse gas emissions and environmental pollution.

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Speaker 3: So we've got like a I was going to say

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Speaker 3: a triple threat, but I think this is like an

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Speaker 3: octuple threat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there are definitely several dynamics that and they're pointing

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Speaker 2: in discouraging directions. It means you've pointed out, Melissa, that

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Speaker 2: there's been increasing consolidation. Some of the media mergers and

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Speaker 2: acquisitions and everything that are going on just kind of

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Speaker 2: feel beyond us as everyday people. Skydance is merging with Paramount,

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Speaker 2: and what does that mean for Colbert and what does

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Speaker 2: that mean for the news? I get it's getting just

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Speaker 2: bigger and bigger all the time. And as we look around,

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Speaker 2: we can see that our local independent news are strained.

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Speaker 2: Just some of the recent decisions from the Trump administration

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Speaker 2: have put even further strain on these news sources. And

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Speaker 2: so we've across this country, across the world, we've got

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Speaker 2: many news deserts. So people are increasingly reliant on these

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Speaker 2: corporate media sources to make sense of what's going on

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Speaker 2: in the world, and that's through legacy media. As Melissa's

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Speaker 2: pointed out, once you get into social media, gets even

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Speaker 2: more confusing with algorithms and the blending. Even some of

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Speaker 2: your work amy has found its way into our chapter

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Speaker 2: where you've pointed out this confusion that can take place

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Speaker 2: between straight news reporting and some advertising that's going on

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Speaker 2: from these carb based industry players. And so while there

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Speaker 2: are definitely a lot of dynamics at play, it's discouraging

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Speaker 2: and challenging.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if you've looked at or if there's

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Speaker 1: any research yet, or if it's maybe too early on

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Speaker 1: this around the way that influencers are sort of replacing reporters,

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Speaker 1: Like I see this all the time, even I have

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Speaker 1: an intern right now who was.

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Speaker 3: Like, do you know this guy blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: I get all my news from him, and I looked

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Speaker 1: him up and he's like one of these people who

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Speaker 1: sort of reads headline in videos, which is all well

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Speaker 1: and good, except that, like, if those people end up

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Speaker 1: getting all the funding and all the audience, then there

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Speaker 1: won't be any reporters writing the stuff for them to

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Speaker 1: read anymore. I just see this huge shift in like

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Speaker 1: the credibility that people are ascribing to influencers for what

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Speaker 1: appears to be no rhyme or reason, and it's not

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Speaker 1: like these people are like, hey, listen to me, I'm

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Speaker 1: very credible for these reasons. It's just like some random

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Speaker 1: guy anyway.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: If you guys have looked at that, but it's freaking

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Speaker 1: me out.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: That problem first became really clear to me when I

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Speaker 3: was teaching an undergraduate class on media and politics a

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Speaker 3: few years ago and we had this assignment that I

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Speaker 3: gave them where I said the student had to identify

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Speaker 3: the source of the media they were looking at, and

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Speaker 3: their answers were things like Facebook or well, probably not,

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Speaker 3: because nobody under the age of twenty five books of Facebook,

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Speaker 3: but you know, social media were listed as the source

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Speaker 3: for these students, and I said, no, no, I don't

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Speaker 3: mean where you saw it. I mean the original source.

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Speaker 3: And they really didn't know what I was talking about.

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Speaker 3: And that's when it hit me that the way our

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Speaker 3: media platforms are organized, the way we access information online

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Speaker 3: is really not the way we people of my generation

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Speaker 3: used to access or understand. So the source is not

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Speaker 3: nearly as relevant to younger people as the content itself

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Speaker 3: and the way it's presented. So that you know, if

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Speaker 3: we're talking about a space where influencers come to have

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Speaker 3: a lot more credibility. That really does have to do

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Speaker 3: with what's getting put in front of people, and that

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Speaker 3: in itself has to do with how algorithms work, and

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Speaker 3: how prior usage patterns work, and how the location of

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Speaker 3: the individual works. We know about all of these data

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Speaker 3: points that inform what kind of information is put in

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Speaker 3: front of people, and so an influencer who might froughten

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Speaker 3: your attention at some other time for some other completely

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Speaker 3: different topic suddenly seems like somebody much more reliable and

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Speaker 3: trust worth than a source you don't know. And that

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Speaker 3: proximity in time and space to you is really problematic

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Speaker 3: when it comes to information about complex, scientific and highly

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Speaker 3: polarized issues like climate chain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm finding that too with students I work

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Speaker 2: with my kids. As they're getting older, you know, they'll say, oh,

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Speaker 2: same new sources, new sources, YouTube, new sources, TikTok, right,

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Speaker 2: And so my experiences have been similar. And that's a

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Speaker 2: demographic shift that we ought to be talking more about.

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Speaker 2: But on top of that, I'd say, relevant to you know,

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about here as well, is that there's

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Speaker 2: been documentation that now oil companies have been hiring these

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Speaker 2: TikTok influencers court young people. Yeah, they are the pathways forward,

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Speaker 2: and so the savvy pr firms, advertising firms, carbon based

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Speaker 2: industry actors themselves are getting into this. So you're what

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Speaker 2: we're sensing together is definitely something that's deliberate and that

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Speaker 2: it is going on.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you had some really really interesting references to new

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Speaker 1: research around this kind of persistent intersection between a certain

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Speaker 1: type of conservative identity and climate contrarianism. I know, the

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Speaker 1: first paper I ever read on that that I still

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Speaker 1: love because I think it's the funniest title ever is

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Speaker 1: the Cool Dude's Paper from it Wrighte and Dunlaver.

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Speaker 3: But you have some really new stuff that's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: I would love to have you guys just unpack that

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Speaker 1: and why this is such a persistent connection between this

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Speaker 1: particular identity and climate contriianism.

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Speaker 2: We do get into some of the contours of what's

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Speaker 2: been developing more recently new research that work. There's a

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Speaker 2: whole group of work by Riley Dunlop and Aaron mccrite

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Speaker 2: that's been really and really pathbreaking in the early days

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Speaker 2: of getting a handle on who are these climate conturions,

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Speaker 2: what are their motives? How are they effectively obstructing climate action,

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Speaker 2: climate pulsy action, greater engagement. And when you refer to

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Speaker 2: that emyre, the cool Dude's piece just refers to maybe

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Speaker 2: colloquially older white guys who are very influential in these spaces.

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Speaker 2: And some of them, you know, are microblogging on Twitter

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Speaker 2: x even Blue Sky and others massed on for a

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Speaker 2: little bit there. They're you know, sometimes maybe just sitting

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Speaker 2: in their basements and they're comfortable suburban homes. And these

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Speaker 2: folks demographically may not be at the forefront of climate

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Speaker 2: impacts like many others. And so there's been research that's

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Speaker 2: followed on theirs. I've done some myself where I've gone

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Speaker 2: to the Heartland Institute meetings about a decade apart and

436
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: sought to make sense of who they are, what are

437
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: their motivations. So that finds its way into our chapter.

438
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 2: Another kind of layer of this is that we've we've

439
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: documented in this chapter a lot of good research that's

440
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: been done that's been tracking how it is much more

441
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: evident and influential within certain countries with ties to fossil

442
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: fuel industry. And reliance on fossil fuels. Matthew Hornsey and

443
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: colleagues have done some really good work that compares and

444
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 2: contrasts these discourses across countries. So there's places like the

445
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: United States where the belly of the beast in a

446
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: certain way, the UK, Australia, certain elements of Brazil around

447
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 2: food consumption and fossil fuels, they have much more vocal

448
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: and I guess legible audible climate contrarian groups collections which

449
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: can be you know, cacaphanous at times, but the overall

450
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: goals of distracting, delaying, denying the facts and the evidence

451
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 2: around this, there are through lines there.

452
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. I didn't realize there was actual research on

453
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: this that amongst the developed countries or more developed countries,

454
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: that the UK and the US really stand out as

455
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: being places where media really continues to give a platform

456
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: to climate skepticism. So again, i'd love to have you

457
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: kind of talk about the research on that and share

458
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 1: your thoughts on why that might be.

459
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 3: I do think a big part of that just you know, again,

460
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: I think we have to understand the background or the

461
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: structural or systemic issue here. So I do think a

462
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 3: big part of that has to do with the ownership

463
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 3: structure of so many news outlets in the UK and

464
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 3: the US and who's so the question of who owns

465
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: the media becomes really salient here. But another issue that

466
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 3: affects the way we think about how the UK and

467
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: the US stand out as giving a platform for skepticism

468
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: is simply that there's a lot more research out there

469
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 3: about the UK and the US than about other parts

470
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: of the world. So it's not just that American and

471
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 3: British media platforms enables skepticism, which they do, but that

472
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 3: we know much more about it there than we do

473
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: about what's going on in other places. And I really

474
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 3: want to underline that as a very big challenge when

475
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: you're writing, as we did for as a contribution to

476
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,239
Speaker 3: this book, a Global Assessment of Climate Obstruction. It just

477
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: I think one takeaway that we had from working on

478
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: this chapter was that we really need better and more

479
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 3: sustained research all over the world to recognize how some

480
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 3: of the climate skeptic frames and platforms and styles are

481
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,479
Speaker 3: being exported to other parts of the world, or how

482
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: we are getting imported from other parts of the world.

483
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: Various kinds of climate skepticism but we just don't know

484
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 3: as much as we need to in some parts of

485
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 3: the world.

486
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've been working more and more with reporters in Uganda, Tanzania, Mozambique,

487
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: and especially in Uganda and Tanzania. I was really surprised

488
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: at how much it had been like really drilled into

489
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: them the like very old school false equivalence thing, you

490
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: know of, like if you quote a scientist about climate change,

491
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: then you have to talk to I don't know, like

492
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: the government person in charge of petroleum contractors too. Made.

493
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 3: I was just going to mention something that one of

494
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: our co authors, Mayana Laws and has been really focusing

495
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 3: on that relates to this question, which is about how

496
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: emerging analyzes of climate coverage in places like Brazil might

497
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: make few references to climate skepticism. But that could be

498
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: because they're not focusing on fossil fuel emissions, but they

499
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 3: are focusing on things like carbon pollution from agriculture or

500
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 3: other land use practices. So I think that's just something

501
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: else to keep in mind when we're talking about climate skepticism.

502
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 3: It might sometimes certain stories might fall outside of the

503
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: purview of research on climate skepticism, but it is climate skepticism.

504
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 3: It just might look different in the news piece.

505
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Melissa, you make great points, and just from referencing Mayena,

506
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: that's she's an example of you know, she has been

507
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: really influential in helping tell these stories out of Brazil.

508
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: And we need many more researchers like Maena and others

509
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: to come together so that we can tell these stories

510
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: more comprehensively. So this book itself, you know, our chapter

511
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: contribution to it, a larger project is trying to take

512
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: a step forward and more systematically understanding how these dynamics

513
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: play out in various times and spaces and that. But

514
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: it is stunning, you know, given the amount of funding

515
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: and capacity that there is within these pr agencies, within advertising,

516
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: within news reporting that shapes the stories that we get

517
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: on a daily basis, that we don't have a larger,

518
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: more coordinated effort to understand all these dynamics from a

519
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: social sciences perspective, from humanities and how that relates to

520
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: the natural physical sciences.

521
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: The most recent IPCC report was the first to include

522
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: social sciences and the first to really note this stuff

523
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: as a huge blocker to policy action. And Max, I

524
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: know I've talked to you about this before, so I

525
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: won't have you repeat like an hour's worth of stuff.

526
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, I just am curious, like, why do you

527
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: think it took so long for the IPCC to start

528
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: looking at this as part of the problem.

529
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is a good question. As we've

530
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,959
Speaker 2: grown to understand more about climate change, it's not a

531
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: single issue. We're increasingly recognizing that it's a set of

532
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: intersecting challenges that flow through every aspect of our lives,

533
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: meeting our livelihood needs and everything else, and in so doing,

534
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 2: we need to understand it from not just physical biological perspectives,

535
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: but human behavior perspectives. And there have been social scientists

536
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: that have come on board and been a part of

537
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: some of the previous IPCC reports, but this really was

538
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: a big step forward with some of us that were

539
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: invited along. So I was a contributing author to that

540
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: most recent IPCC report. And so when you ask that question,

541
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the kind of simple answer is

542
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: because there were folks like me and me included to

543
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: bring the very thoroughly researched work that we're talking about

544
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: in this chapter and this larger book into the pages

545
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: of the IPCC. But I think a bigger part of

546
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: that is just that more folks from different disciplines, seeing

547
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: this as an integrative, interdisciplinary set of challenges, are being

548
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: invited in to help provide those insights through the thoroughly

549
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: researched work that's going on out there, and so it

550
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: is a step forward. You know, they're selecting authors for

551
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: the next one. We could possibly debate for a full

552
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: hour about the wisdom of another big assessment report years

553
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: and off, while we need to do a lot interim.

554
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: But having said that, they're selecting authors for the next one,

555
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: I hope that continues to flow into these pages. And

556
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: the work that we talk about in the chapter that

557
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: we capture that's in the larger reports themselves actually didn't

558
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: make it into the summary for policy makers, and that too,

559
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: we could talk about for quite a while. But there's

560
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: still a lot of work to do to make this

561
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: much more legible and to make this a larger conversation

562
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: through the IPCC.

563
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Melissa, I feel like this is going to be

564
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: your best question, which is about the pr firms.

565
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 3: I love this.

566
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: Description of them as sort of the glue joining carbon

567
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: based industries, media organizations, and economic sectors using collisions campaigns

568
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: and other coordinated processes to question the efficacy of science,

569
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: news and institutions engaging climate related issues. Again, this is

570
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: one I know you could spend many hours talking about.

571
00:34:58,719 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: Can I have you give a little bit of an

572
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: overview of the role that PR firms play here. If

573
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 1: you want to talk about advertising firms too, that's fine.

574
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: Maybe the difference between them, because I feel like they

575
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: get conflated a lot. Maybe there's not that much difference

576
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: between them anymore. I don't know, anyway, over to you.

577
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 3: So, the most important thing I learned when I started

578
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 3: researching the role of AD agencies and PR firms and

579
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: climate disinformation is that these firms are not just mouthpieces

580
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: for their fossil fuel clients. They are coming up with

581
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 3: the strategies, They are creating messages, They are developing the

582
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 3: relationships with news media and other organizations who are friendly

583
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 3: to their cause. For a long time, climate researchers only

584
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 3: focused on the fossil fuel companies themselves, and that was

585
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 3: relevant and necessary. So we now have a lot more

586
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 3: information about what Exxon does, or what Shell does, or

587
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 3: what VP does. But lately journalists and researchers have started

588
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: paying a lot more attention to the consultants and strategists

589
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: who come up with the positioning for these fossil fueld

590
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 3: companies and who play key roles in managing these companies

591
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 3: media image and their marketing and strategic plan. I do

592
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 3: want to mention that there is a very important pioneer

593
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 3: of this kind of research who's name as John Stauber

594
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 3: of the Center for Media and Democracy in Wisconsin. He

595
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 3: founded that center back in nineteen ninety three, and in

596
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,879
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five he wrote this book which I think

597
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: has the best name that any book like this could have,

598
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 3: which is called Toxic Sludge Is Good for You, which

599
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: was an expose of the PR firms involved in environmental disinformation.

600
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 3: And I mentioned that because that really was a very

601
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: important guide that came out at a time when most

602
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 3: of us were looking the other way. It really has

603
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 3: helped later researchers and journalists think about this. So a

604
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: second major finding that we have about the role of

605
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 3: PR firms and AD agencies in climate disinformation is that

606
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:13,240
Speaker 3: these firms are embedded in a very wide ecosystem of influence.

607
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: We mentioned this well earlier in our conversation, but just

608
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 3: important to remember PR firms and ad agencies are doing

609
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: work for not only fossil fuel companies, but also their

610
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:29,959
Speaker 3: trade associations, industry councils and science advisory councils, for think

611
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 3: tanks and research institutes, ENGOs, foundations, Chambers of commerce, organizational boards.

612
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: I mean, the list goes on, and the important thing

613
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 3: that really came to me is that these firms play

614
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 3: several roles in keeping this network together. This is the

615
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 3: glue part. One of the things that these PR firms

616
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: and other consultants do is intelligence gathering across different industries

617
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 3: as well as inside the environmental community. So you'll have

618
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 3: PR firms hiring people who used to work at government

619
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 3: agencies working on environmental issues or from other organizations that

620
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: influence public policy on environment or climate and energy issues.

621
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: Another thing these PR firms will do is conduct industry

622
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 3: friendly research that help clients promote their viewpoints in the media.

623
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 3: So there's a massive production of scientific material, legal material,

624
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 3: and technical material to circulate in the media. So, like

625
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 3: you said, Amy, I could really go on for several

626
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: more hours about this, but I just really want to

627
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 3: communicate that these firms are not just about spin. There's

628
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 3: so much more going on and they deserve all of

629
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: the attention that we've been trying to give to them

630
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 3: over the last few years.

631
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, this has written up a lot of great research

632
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: on this and a book fit is worth checking out

633
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: for all your listeners. Yes, just to maybe animate this

634
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: with a very recent example. You know, Edelman, big influential

635
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: ad agency that's helped promote fossil fuels with various companies

636
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: as clients, has just been hired by cop thirty in

637
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: Brazil to with the strategy. So these things are happening

638
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: and circulating all the time.

639
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, I was just reading about that. Okay,

640
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about social media and digital

641
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: but can I have you hone in on the digital

642
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: platforms in particular and sort of structurally, what is going

643
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 1: on with them with respect to spreading disinformation around and

644
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: what are people trying to do.

645
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 3: So, I mean, yes, digital platforms are very troubling sources

646
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: of climate disinformation. In fact, some have argued that digital

647
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: platforms are actually completely complicit in spreading climate denial because

648
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 3: they do such a terrible job of monitoring the content

649
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: on their sites in the name of you know, they

650
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 3: want to avoid so called censorship, or they say they're

651
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: just technology companies and not media companies, so they're not

652
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 3: responsible for the content on their sites. They also take

653
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: ads from fossil fuel companies. We have one report we

654
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 3: talk about in the chapter that estimates that Google alone

655
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 3: received twenty three point seven million dollars between twenty twenty

656
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 3: and twenty twenty two from the five largest oil companies

657
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 3: in the world to promote their advertising. We can also

658
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 3: really level our sites at meta slash Facebook, which has

659
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 3: overridden its own independent fact checkers for climate science. It

660
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 3: has also allowed fossil fuel companies to purchase misleading ads.

661
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 3: And another real problem that is posed by companies like

662
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 3: Facebook is that they have a data sharing tool called

663
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 3: crowd Tangle, which is traditionally relied upon by journalists and

664
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 3: academics to analyze engagement with content on the platform, and

665
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 3: they keep tweaking the data sharing tools so that it's

666
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 3: less transparent and less useful for journalists and academics. So

667
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 3: it's very hard to get a long term view of

668
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: how engagement is changing over time, and it's very difficult

669
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 3: to understand all the demographics and other data points that

670
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 3: researchers need. So it's so it's yeah, it's really it

671
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: really feels like the wild West. There's a group called

672
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: Climate Action Against Disinformation CAD, which has done a lot

673
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 3: of really interesting research in this area, and they've talked

674
00:41:54,360 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: about how really the four big platforms of TikTok, Meta, YouTube,

675
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 3: and X have become complicit in the spread of climate denial.

676
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: And they put X out of those four last among

677
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 3: platforms because of their absolute total absence of policies on

678
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 3: climate disinformation, failing to effectively enforce whatever policies they do have,

679
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 3: and total lack of public transparency.

680
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: It's a pretty comprehensive answer. It's nice to hear listening

681
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: to what you've laid out, Melissa. I mean, even if

682
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 2: we were to say there's no deliberate malintent with all

683
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 2: these big companies, even just as you had pointed out

684
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: the absence of policies on just information the way in

685
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: which you know, at the start of the year, Zuckerberg

686
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 2: it said that they're getting rid of its fact checking

687
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: policy and just starting some community board community notes. I

688
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: should say that just the misinformation that proliferates because of

689
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 2: the influence of these and the lack of intentional fact checking,

690
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: amongst them is really troubling.

691
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 1: I wonder if you both or either of you has

692
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: a response to this very concerning trend of people recasting

693
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: fact checking as censorship and like how that plays into

694
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: this stuff.

695
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: I may not answer that head on, but I think

696
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: part of how we've then gotten into these places is

697
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 2: that people like those within the academic research community haven't

698
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: advocated adequately for facts and evidence and truths as they

699
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: come about. And so that is a form of advocacy.

700
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 2: It's advocacy of a sort. It's not advocating for particular

701
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: policy actions or advocating for certain outcomes. But in the

702
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: absence of that, we've allowed ourselves to devolve into this

703
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: place where fact checking can be seen as, like you say,

704
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 2: some kind of censorship, some kind of intervention, that that

705
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 2: is unwanted and that curtails free speech. I mean, it's

706
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,959
Speaker 2: where things can turn on their head. But I think

707
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 2: I find myself somewhat culpable and those within our communities

708
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: for not advocating more strenuously for facts and evidence and

709
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,839
Speaker 2: for not helping others better understand these these uh, you know,

710
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 2: the landscape of how this matters, how facts matter.

711
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 3: Maybe I mean we should talk about rapid attribution because

712
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 3: that's wine.

713
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: It does kind of like blend into that. Yeah, what

714
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: is what is rapid attribution? Let me have you define it?

715
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: And then like how could it help with this?

716
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I heard about this idea through Jill Hopka's work.

717
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,439
Speaker 3: Others have spoken about it, but she has a great

718
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 3: piece on this topic. The basic idea behind rapid attribution

719
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 3: is to respond to misleading media content as quickly as possible.

720
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: So this has to do with, of course, this incredible

721
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,479
Speaker 3: speed of the news cycle these days, and the fact

722
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 3: that our attention is constantly pulled in a million different

723
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 3: directions online. And if you contrast that with the academic

724
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: research and publication cycle, I mean, there's just no contest.

725
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 3: It's our research and publication cycle is incredibly slow. We

726
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 3: work in cycles of years, not cycles of minutes. So

727
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 3: what some researchers are calling for is a monitoring and

728
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 3: rapid response service to provide facts, to provide accurate information

729
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 3: to the public while they're thinking about the issue, not

730
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 3: a year or two later. And so some have suggested

731
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 3: that maybe academic researchers can take a page from nonprofit

732
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 3: projects or even projects like Max's observatory groups like Max's Observatory,

733
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: by working either more closely with those groups or working

734
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 3: with other research centers to track and analyze digital media

735
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: and social media disinformation as it happens and provide a

736
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 3: researcher's lens on the response.

737
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 2: It reminds me of that old saying why I can

738
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: travel around the world while the truth is putting on

739
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 2: its shoes. That these are efforts to try and close

740
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: that feedback loop. They're improving, but even today and say

741
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: print news journalism, if something is wrong, they print a

742
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: correction the next day, it's still not adequate. There are

743
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: many more efforts that are going on.

744
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, you have this very interesting section to me

745
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 1: about how how these narratives shape not just people's understanding

746
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: of the issues and how urgent they are, but also

747
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: ambition on climate and I wonder if you could walk

748
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: through that. I also wanted to ask you about a

749
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: tendency for a lot of reporters who are on the

750
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: climate beat to focus on just events based reporting. I

751
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: feel like that kind of into this too.

752
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to refreak question like the way all good

753
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 3: you know, political interviews are so media trained it's great yes,

754
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 3: you asked, So all I answer a piece of what

755
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 3: you asked. So you asked about how do some of

756
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: the narratives that we see in the media shape people's

757
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 3: ambition to do something about climate change. And so here

758
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 3: there's a variety of climate obstruction that I know really

759
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,439
Speaker 3: well because I've spent a lot of years studying how

760
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 3: big brands and other business groups sidesteck their role in

761
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 3: contributing to climate change, and because they generate narratives that

762
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: are very influential, very seductive, but that really are problematic.

763
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 3: And they do this by promoting that they're at the

764
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 3: table with us, that they're collaborators, their consensus makers, or

765
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 3: that they're willing to compromise. And in fact, I would

766
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 3: say that some of the most effective undermining of environmental

767
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: science has come from business leaders who say that their

768
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 3: company is working alongside scientists or alongside public policy makers

769
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 3: to solve climate problems. So here we have to come

770
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: back to PR specialists, because their entire resondet is to

771
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 3: promote consensus among public audiences, that's the public in public relations,

772
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 3: is to relate to the public. They influence people by

773
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 3: aligning their clients' messages with public values and beliefs. That's

774
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 3: a classic branding strategy. And it's also about creating legitimacy

775
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 3: for their client organizations like fossil fuel companies, and about

776
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 3: creating trust in their message. So, for example, PR consultants

777
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 3: will create public private partnerships or sponsorships for their clients

778
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 3: that make them look good. Shell for instance, the oil

779
00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 3: company sponsors youth programs, they sponsor healthcare initiatives, sponsor housing projects,

780
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 3: and that's not It's hard to point to that and

781
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 3: say that's bad. You shouldn't sponsor those projects. But at

782
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 3: the same time, if you think about how that acts

783
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: back on the company to make them look good, when

784
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 3: in fact, alongside those sponsorships they are also expanding the

785
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 3: infrastructure for oil production, it becomes really challenging to uphold

786
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: their good image. I could go on, but maybe I

787
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: could leave it at that for now.

788
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. Did you want to add anything in there, mix.

789
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: Well, I think it relates back to some of the

790
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: things we were talking about before. Melissa was talking about

791
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: discourses of climate delay and kind of honing in on

792
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: the four that William Lamb and colleagues had pointed out

793
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 2: that we got in the chapter. And another way in

794
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: which we can see this kind of narrative is through

795
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: the way in which some of the redirection of responsibility

796
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: comes through the individualization of responsibility. And so some of

797
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 2: the narratives that take place through the media and through

798
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: everyday lives can come into the notion of carbon footprints,

799
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 2: which themselves we're seen as creation by the foss fuel

800
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 2: industry to redirect attention to the individual rather than larger

801
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 2: corporate actors who are contributing significantly to these issues. And

802
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 2: so that individualization can have several different kind of pushes

803
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 2: and pulls. It can distract from their responsibilities, but then

804
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 2: they can also, you know, very importantly, it can have

805
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: us feel like, oh my gosh, we get overwhelmed with

806
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 2: the enormity of the challenges that we have before us,

807
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 2: and so it can push us into these spaces of

808
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: paralysis if we if we subscribe to this kind of atomized,

809
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: individualized way of acting, and we also, on top of

810
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: that can tend to you know, start to name and

811
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 2: shame and blame one another instead of looking at some

812
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: of the clear fact around us. And so you know,

813
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 2: there's there's been a lot of work over time among

814
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: them was some important work by Richard he that points

815
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: out that two thirds of industrial greenhouse gas emissions, fossil

816
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 2: fuel use, methane leaks, and manufacturing have come from ninety

817
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: companies around the world since the john of the Industrial Revolution.

818
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 2: And so this naming and shaming and individualization is both

819
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,959
Speaker 2: a redirection of responsibility and that it's also really is

820
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 2: a very effective technique of delay and distraction.

821
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to end with this accountability piece and

822
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: where we're at with accountability measures on this. So we

823
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: talked about rapid attribution, but you mentioned this push for

824
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: a universal definition of climate disinformation in the chapter, and

825
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 1: then you know the potential for accountability for specific platforms.

826
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear from each of you where you

827
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: see the most progress I'm dealing.

828
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 3: I'll just start by saying that the call for universal

829
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,760
Speaker 3: definition of climate disinformation as well as for more accountability

830
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 3: my media platforms, came out, I believe in November twenty

831
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 3: twenty four around the COP twenty nine climate negotiations in Baku, Azerbaijan.

832
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 3: And this was a large group, a coalition of political groups, nonprofits,

833
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 3: and so that was trying to encourage political leaders around

834
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 3: the world to acknowledge that there is a major threat

835
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 3: posed by climate disinformation as an obstacle to climate action,

836
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 3: and to adopt a definition that will allow regulation and

837
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 3: other forms of rules to get put in place, to

838
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 3: be able to say, you know, to point at something

839
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 3: and say that is climate disinformation based on this definition

840
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 3: that all of us have agreed upon. I think that

841
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 3: that would be very powerful. And then that third pillar

842
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 3: is to hold platforms accountable. As you said, Amy, so

843
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 3: just push social media companies ad tech publishers to prevent

844
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 3: the spread of climate disinformation by agin acknowledging it and

845
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 3: saying we're not going to allow this kind of garbage

846
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 3: to be to be on our sites. I would say,

847
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 3: if I had to, you know, leave with some Oh,

848
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 3: but this is really not I don't intend this to

849
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 3: be about t toooting my own hord. This is just

850
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 3: something I know more about than other areas. We'll talk

851
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 3: about it. It's in relation to this idea of adopting

852
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 3: a universal definition, but it's on the topic of greenwashing,

853
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 3: which is a subset of climate disinformation. This is something

854
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 3: that some colleagues and I have been working pretty steadily

855
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 3: on through the Climate Social Science Network we have a

856
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: Greenwashing working group and we've just put out our second

857
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 3: article that attempts to develop a very clear and coherent

858
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 3: framework to identify greenwashing and to lay out a set

859
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 3: of criteria that anyone can use. It's not just an

860
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 3: academic thing. It's really about saying, here are the features.

861
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: Now.

862
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 3: You know, if you can identify these features in whatever

863
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 3: you're looking at that you think is greenwashing, and these

864
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 3: features are there, you can call it greenwashing. You can

865
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 3: go aheat them and say that's greenwashing. And we're really

866
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 3: trying to promote greater accountability by all kinds of organizations,

867
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 3: not not just companies, but other groups that advertently or

868
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 3: inadvertently produce greenwashing material and just yeah, getting a definition

869
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 3: that then will allow all these groups accountable. And we've

870
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 3: had some real success with that framework. We've had a

871
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 3: couple of groups, I know in Canadian cities, some lawmakers

872
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 3: have used that framework to ask for public buses and

873
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 3: other transit systems to take down their advertising that is

874
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 3: greenwashing as a result of our study. So that's just

875
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 3: one very small contribution to try t to just keep

876
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 3: these different platforms and different outlets accountable.

877
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: That's great I'm glad glad to hear those developments because

878
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: they can feedback into news reporting, into pro engagement advertising,

879
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 2: and on and on. I guess I would say that,

880
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: you know, while we have talked about how you know,

881
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 2: there are strains on our media literacy nowadays, generally my

882
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: experience has been that once you open up these conversations,

883
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 2: especially with young college aged people that I'm working with

884
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 2: a lot teaching, that there is a real appetite and

885
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 2: there's an ability to learn very quickly, and especially young

886
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 2: people who have been born into the world where we've

887
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 2: already had this on the public agenda. For those of

888
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: us that are a little bit older, you know, we

889
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 2: grew up in a world where this wasn't being discussed.

890
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 2: But many young people now that are in college have

891
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 2: been exposed to this, been talking about it, and they're

892
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 2: well positioned to start to move forward with solutions. And

893
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 2: I know at times we all may feel like this

894
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 2: is really daunting. There are so many large forces and

895
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 2: pressures that are working against this kind of progress. I

896
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: guess I am in a quoting kind of mood. I

897
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 2: think about Wes Jackson something he said about if you're

898
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 2: not working on something that you plan on finishing in

899
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 2: your lifetime, you're not thinking big enough. And so when

900
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 2: we start to work with folks across demographics, across generations,

901
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 2: and there is this appetite to learn, there is this

902
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 2: appetite for positive change. I see it through the creative

903
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 2: ways that students I'm working with are communicating about climate

904
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 2: change with their peers and families and neighbors and roommates.

905
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 2: That I find that as a source of encouragement. So

906
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 2: while we have been focused in here on diagnosing some

907
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 2: of the real daunting challenges, there are places where we

908
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:49,439
Speaker 2: can look to for encouragement and hope.

909
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 3: Awesome, No, I really, Max was saying about students that

910
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 3: I do see. The only moments lately when I do

911
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 3: feel optimistic are actually working with my students and being

912
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 3: out with my teen son. Yeah, you know, which is

913
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 3: kind of ironic because in other ways he drives me

914
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 3: absolutely Banata's butt.

915
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: Yes he is.

916
00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 3: He is.

917
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 4: You know, he's growing up to be a very savvy

918
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 4: and media literate person. Despite what we say earlier, he

919
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 4: is very aware of the climate crisis and that need

920
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 4: to do something about it. I feel hopeful when I

921
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 4: hear the kinds of things that he's thinking about and

922
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 4: wanting to do when it comes to climate change, because

923
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 4: he's on it, and I think his friends and roommates

924
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 4: and others are too.

925
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: Okay, well, it's kind of nice to end on a

926
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: little bit of hope and grit. I do feel like

927
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: people forget that these things take a long time. That's

928
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: it for this time. Make sure you're subscribed so you

929
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: don't miss an episode. You can find more on this season,

930
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: including transcripts and lots of related articles and background information,

931
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 1: on our website at Drilled Media. You can also sign

932
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: up for our newsletter there. Our producers for this season

933
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: are Martin Saltz, Oustwick and Peter Duff. Our theme song

934
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 1: is Bird in the Hand by Foreknown. Our cover art

935
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: is by Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment attorney is James

936
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: Wheaton with the First Amendment Project. The show was created, written,

937
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: and reported by me Amy Westervelt. Thanks for listening and

938
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: see you next time.