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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two

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Speaker 3: in our series about the winners of the twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: five ig Nobel Prizes. This is something we cover almost

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Speaker 3: every year here on the show, though of course we're

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Speaker 3: not affiliated with the prizes in anyway. It's just something

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Speaker 3: we like to talk about. The Ignobels are given out

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Speaker 3: usually in September of each year by a scientific humor

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Speaker 3: journal called the Annals of Improbable Research, edited for many

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Speaker 3: years by Mark Abrahams, and the state admission of the

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Speaker 3: Ignobel Prizes is to honor achievements that first make people

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Speaker 3: laugh and then make them think. If you haven't listened

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Speaker 3: to part one yet, you can go back and check

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Speaker 3: that one out first. But for a brief recap. In

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Speaker 3: the last episode, we talked about the twenty two twenty

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Speaker 3: five prize in nutrition, which went to a team who

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Speaker 3: studied lizards eating pizza. The prize for psychology for a

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Speaker 3: paper that looked at whether people become more narcissistic when

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Speaker 3: you tell them that they're really smart. And the twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty five Prize for Aviation, which went to a study

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Speaker 3: on whether fruit bats become worse at flying when they

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Speaker 3: get drunk. Is that about right, Rob, Yes, and they do.

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Speaker 3: And we're back today to talk about more.

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Speaker 2: All right. Just a reminder again, we're not covering all

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Speaker 2: the winners. We're just doing two helpings, really, each of

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Speaker 2: us going in and grabbing some stuff, discussing the studies

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Speaker 2: we want to talk about, papers we want to talk about,

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Speaker 2: but by all means, go to the website improbable dot

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Speaker 2: com and you can learn more about this year's winners,

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Speaker 2: last year's winners. They have one of these great like

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Speaker 2: single page readouts where you can just scan through everything

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Speaker 2: that they've covered over the years. A rarity in today's

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Speaker 2: web space.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a great thing to send to your office printer

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Speaker 3: and just get again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So the first award that I wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: about today is the twenty twenty five Biology Prize, which

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Speaker 3: was presented to and there's a long list of names here.

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Speaker 3: As always, apologies for any mispronunciations, but the team was

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Speaker 3: Tomoki Kojima, Kazato Oishi, Yasushi Matsubara, Yuki Uchiyama, Yoshihiko Fukushima,

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Speaker 3: Naoto Aoki, say Sato, Tatsuaki Masuda, Junichi Yueida, hiro Yuki Hiruka,

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Speaker 3: and Katsutoshi Kino, and then to quote the prize language

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Speaker 3: for their experiments to learn whether cows painted with zebra

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Speaker 3: like striping can avoid being bitten by flies? Yes, that

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Speaker 3: said painted. So the question is can you keep parasitic

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Speaker 3: insects off your cows by just painting some zebra stripes

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Speaker 3: on them? The paper in question was published in twenty

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Speaker 3: nineteen in the journal plus one, and it was called

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Speaker 3: Cows painted with zebra like striping can avoid biting fly attacks.

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Speaker 3: It kind of gives away the result there. But the

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Speaker 3: funny thing about this study is that this is actually

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Speaker 3: not the first time, not this paper in particular, but

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Speaker 3: research on this general subject has come up on the show.

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Speaker 3: We talked about this in a listener Mail episode last year,

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Speaker 3: which was was from August twenty twenty four. Rob, Was

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Speaker 3: this an episode that I did solo or were you

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Speaker 3: on this episode with me?

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Speaker 2: I don't recall. This is one of those areas that

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Speaker 2: I feel like I have podcasted on before, but I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure how recently, you know, getting into the coloration

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Speaker 2: of zebras and so forth, and you know the evolved

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Speaker 2: reason for the stripes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so maybe this was a solo listener mail episode

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Speaker 3: that I did. Anyway, the context in which this came

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Speaker 3: up was a message from our listener Jeremy, who at

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Speaker 3: the time had written into the show address that's contact

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Speaker 3: at stuff to Blow your mind dot com, asking for

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Speaker 3: our thoughts on an attached photo which was of a

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Speaker 3: horse grazing in a fenced pasture draped in a cloth

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Speaker 3: with black and white zebra print. Which is funny already

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Speaker 3: because I think, not knowing the reason for this, a

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Speaker 3: lot of people's first assumption might be that this is

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Speaker 3: just a horse somebody has dressed up in a zebra

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Speaker 3: costume for esthetic reasons, maybe Halloween unclear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean somebody's pasture poodle. So maybe they just

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Speaker 2: have a jazzy outfit.

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Speaker 3: On, right, So Jeremy asked if the purpose was actually

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Speaker 3: to repel biting flies, since there is some evidence that

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Speaker 3: zebra stripes may work to keep flies off the skin.

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Speaker 3: I looked into this a little bit, and I concluded

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Speaker 3: at the time that the horse in the picture was

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Speaker 3: wearing what's called a fly sheet. I had no previous

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Speaker 3: knowledge of this at all, but I assume most horse

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Speaker 3: owners and farmers and ranchers will be quite familiar with

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Speaker 3: this kind of product. So fly sheets are lightweight bankets,

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Speaker 3: usually made out of some kind of mesh fabric that

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Speaker 3: you drape over a horse to keep flies and other

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Speaker 3: insects from biting the horse. And if you google these products,

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Speaker 3: you'll find that other uses are advertised as well, like

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Speaker 3: protecting animals from UV radiation. From what I'm reading, these

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Speaker 3: things work pretty well at their main job. But that

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you can just protect all your horses

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Speaker 3: permanently by dressing them in fly sheets and then just

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Speaker 3: leaving them on all the time. Apparently, some horses do

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Speaker 3: not like the sheets. They find them irritating and they

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Speaker 3: try to shake them or rub them off, which could

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Speaker 3: lead to injury. Also, there is some injury risk just

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Speaker 3: from the horse knocking it part way off and then

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Speaker 3: getting it tangled on something. And also you can't leave

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Speaker 3: it on forever for the same reason that you shouldn't

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Speaker 3: leave the same piece of human clothing on forever. Eventually

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Speaker 3: it gets dirty and damp and hot, and it irritates

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Speaker 3: the skin, possibly leading to overheating or to skin infections.

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Speaker 3: So fly sheets can protect your horse from fly bites

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Speaker 3: to some extent, but you've got to balance the pros

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Speaker 3: and cons, and even for horses that tolerate them, well,

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Speaker 3: it's not just a putg it on once and forget

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Speaker 3: about it solution. But the thing I wondered about in

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Speaker 3: this image was if the fly sheet is itself a

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Speaker 3: physical barrier against fly bytes, what would be the additional benefit,

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Speaker 3: if anything, of having an insect repelling pattern printed on

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Speaker 3: the fly sheet? If that is indeed what zebra stripes

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Speaker 3: even do. We'll explore that question more in a minute.

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Speaker 3: But wouldn't the sheet itself provide the protection whether it

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Speaker 3: was printed with zebra stripes or leopard print or you

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Speaker 3: know whatever individual frames from the Boxer's omen just like

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Speaker 3: the whole movie on the side of the horse. Maybe

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Speaker 3: maybe there is an additional benefit, but I'm skeptical.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that would have venture to guess. Maybe it

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Speaker 2: would be a situation where the stripes would keep flies

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Speaker 2: potentially away from the uncovered portions of the horse as well,

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Speaker 2: Like the flies in question would be like, oh, there's

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Speaker 2: a zebra colored horse over there. I'm going to ignore

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Speaker 2: this horse entirely, even the parts that aren't zebra e

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Speaker 2: And I'm just going to go check out this other

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Speaker 2: certified non zebra.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that is a totally reasonable thing to wonder,

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Speaker 3: except I think in at least one of the studies

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Speaker 3: we're about to look at, it mentions that when supplemental

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Speaker 3: zebra stripes are given to some animals, they still got

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Speaker 3: bitten on the parts that weren't covered.

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Speaker 2: So okay, well, there you go.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know. Maybe it reduces the bites on

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Speaker 3: the uncovered parts even though it doesn't totally eliminate them.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but anyway, so questions. I don't know

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Speaker 3: whether that would be beneficial or not. Now. In that

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Speaker 3: listener mail episode, I talked about a different study on

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Speaker 3: zebra stripes and biting insects, also from twenty nineteen, also

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Speaker 3: in the Journal plus one, so same journal and year

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Speaker 3: as the Ignobel Prize winning study here. That paper was

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Speaker 3: called Benefits of Zebra stripes Behavior of Tabinid flies around

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Speaker 3: zebras and horses. That was by Caro at All short

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Speaker 3: summary of that one. Over the years, researchers have proposed

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Speaker 3: a lot of different evolutionary reasons that zebras might have stripes.

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Speaker 3: Maybe the stripes somehow regulate body temperature, for example, maybe

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Speaker 3: they helped the zebra avoid overheating in the sun somehow,

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Speaker 3: maybe they are a type of visual camouflage confusing predators.

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Speaker 3: But a very promising idea is that somehow the stripes

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Speaker 3: protect zebras against ectoparasitic insects like biting flies quote quoting

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Speaker 3: the authors. Here, we examined the behavior of tabanids, horseflies

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Speaker 3: in the vicinity of captive planes, zebras, and uniformly colored

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Speaker 3: domestic horses living on a horse farm in Britain. Observations

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Speaker 3: showed that fewer tabanids landed on zebras than on horses

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Speaker 3: per unit time, although rates of tabanids circling around or

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Speaker 3: briefly touching zebra and horse pillage did not differ. So

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Speaker 3: interesting finding. The horses and zebra has had equal numbers

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Speaker 3: of flies swarming around them, but the flies successfully landed

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Speaker 3: on the zebras less often, which presumably means they were

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Speaker 3: able to bite the zebras less often. And in a

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Speaker 3: secondary experiment, the authors found that if you placed a

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Speaker 3: zebra patterned coat on a horse compared to coats of

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Speaker 3: solid white or solid black, it reduced the number of

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Speaker 3: tabinid flies that landed on the horse. The horseflies still

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Speaker 3: landed on and bit like exposed unpatterned parts of the

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Speaker 3: horse's bodies, like the head. So the question is if

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Speaker 3: zebra stripes prevent flies or help help reduce the amount

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Speaker 3: that flies land on you, how do they do that?

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Speaker 3: The author's right quote. In separate detailed video analyzes, tabanids

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Speaker 3: approached zebras faster and failed to decelerate before contacting zebras,

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Speaker 3: and proportionately more tabinids simply touched rather than landed on

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Speaker 3: zebra pelage in comparison to horses. So, according to this

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Speaker 3: other research, when you have zebra stripes, biting flies have

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Speaker 3: a harder time slowing down their flight and landing correctly

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Speaker 3: on your skin, and they're more likely to kind of

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Speaker 3: fly into you at higher speed and bounce off without landing.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of interesting. It's like putting some kind of

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Speaker 3: dazzle your on your airport runway. You know, it makes

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Speaker 3: it hard to land the plane.

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Speaker 2: Now you're messing with the fly maneuverability and landing ability. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And also note that when I looked into this last year,

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Speaker 3: I read some coverage, including an article in the BBC

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Speaker 3: that quoted other scientists in the field who were not

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Speaker 3: fully convinced that they that fly repellent properties were the

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Speaker 3: main evolutionary reason for zebra stripes. A few reasons for

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Speaker 3: doubt they're a major one being are biting flies really

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Speaker 3: a primary fitness concern for wild zebras. Some researchers were

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Speaker 3: skeptical that they were, so this is not a full

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Speaker 3: settled issue. But that brings us to the Ignobel prize

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Speaker 3: winning paper on this topic. Again, that's the Kojima at

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Speaker 3: All paper from twenty nineteen. To summarize this one, the

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Speaker 3: authors cite the previous research showing that zebra stripes seem

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Speaker 3: to reduce attacks by biting flies, and however much this

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Speaker 3: is or is not really a major fitness concern for

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Speaker 3: zebras in the wild, the authors argued that it is

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Speaker 3: of major significance to people who raise domestic animals like cattle.

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Speaker 3: They write, quote, biting flies are serious pests of livestock

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Speaker 3: that cause economic losses in animal production. Now you might think, like,

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Speaker 3: how do fly bytes cause those losses. Well, they actually explain.

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Speaker 3: They say, cattle find these biting flies really annoying, and

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Speaker 3: they change their behavior to try to protect themselves from

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Speaker 3: fly bites. So cattle that are bothered by biting flies

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Speaker 3: spend less time feeding and grazing, they spend less time

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Speaker 3: bedding down, and they also engage in direct defensive behaviors.

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Speaker 3: These defensive behaviors can involve a lot of violent body movements,

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Speaker 3: maybe flicking the tail, stomping around, shaking their heads, and

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Speaker 3: twitching the muscles on the skin. Cattle will also crowd

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Speaker 3: their bodies together to decrease their surface area and protect

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Speaker 3: themselves from flies. And the authors argue that all of

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Speaker 3: these behaviors cause economic losses since the cattle expend energy

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Speaker 3: doing this stuff, they eat and they rest less, and

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Speaker 3: crowding or bunching together in particular, seems bad. Quote. Bunching

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Speaker 3: increases heat, stress and risk of injury as animals jostle

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Speaker 3: for a better position to avoid biting flies, and this

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Speaker 3: can reduce weight gains in feed lot beef cattle and

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Speaker 3: milk yield in dairy cows. So this doesn't necessarily prove it,

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Speaker 3: but I think it's a reasonable inference that if if

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Speaker 3: biting flies cause these measurable economic losses for domestic cattle owners,

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Speaker 3: they might well translate to similar evolutionary losses for animals

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Speaker 3: in nature. We don't know for sure, but it seems

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Speaker 3: quite possible.

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Speaker 2: It sounds reasonable anyway.

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Speaker 3: So, building on the previous findings that biting flies either

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Speaker 3: avoid or have trouble landing on zebra stripes versus on

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Speaker 3: like a solid black or white surface, the authors ask

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Speaker 3: what happens if you just paint a solid colored cow

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Speaker 3: with zebra stripes? Will that keep the biting flies away?

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Speaker 3: And if you wonder if there's a picture, Yes, there

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Speaker 3: is a picture, Rob, I've got it for you to

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Speaker 3: look at. Here. So this is a black cow that

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Speaker 3: has been painted with white zebra stripes on the sides,

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Speaker 3: like the flanks, not the head, but everywhere except the head,

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Speaker 3: the flanks and the legs going all the way to

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Speaker 3: the rear end.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this picture alone answers the question why is this funny?

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Speaker 2: This is just in and of itself, laughter inducing to

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Speaker 2: see this cow that has been painted up like a

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Speaker 2: zebra like. Somehow, it's more hilarious, obviously than a horse

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Speaker 2: being painted like a zebra. Maybe because like, you're not

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Speaker 2: fooling anybody, Like I can't help but think this cow

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Speaker 2: wants to be mistaken for a zebra and we're just

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Speaker 2: not buying it.

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Speaker 3: I'm not insulting anybody here, but it is funny that

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Speaker 3: this picture has has labels for body and leg. Actually,

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Speaker 3: maybe there's a good reason for this, Like maybe if

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Speaker 3: they're if they're documenting where on the body the biting

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Speaker 3: flies that were seen landing landed, you know, you want

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Speaker 3: to note exactly where the boundaries are as you're considering. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so that makes more sense. But the label of body

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Speaker 3: is really got me going. Which part is the head?

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Speaker 3: So the authors they described their small experiment as follows quote.

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Speaker 3: Six Japanese black cows were assigned to treatments using a

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Speaker 3: three by three Latin square design. The treatments were black

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Speaker 3: and white painted stripes, black painted stripes and no stripes,

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Speaker 3: meaning an all black body surface. Recorded fly repelling behaviors

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Speaker 3: were head throw, ear beat, leg stamp, skin twitch, and

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Speaker 3: tail flick. Photo images of the right side of each

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Speaker 3: cow were taken using a commercial digital camera after every observation,

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Speaker 3: and biting flies on the body and each leg were

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Speaker 3: counted from the photo images. Okay, so maybe that's why

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Speaker 3: it's important to know exactly where the boundaries are here.

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Speaker 3: We showed that the numbers of biting flies on Japanese

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Speaker 3: black cows painted with black and white stripes were significantly

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Speaker 3: lower than those on non painted cows and cows painted

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Speaker 3: only with black stripes. The frequencies of fly repelling behaviors

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Speaker 3: in cows painted with black and white stripes were also

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Speaker 3: lower than those in the non painted and black striped cows.

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Speaker 3: So again, in other words, compared to cows without stripes

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Speaker 3: and black cows painted with blacks, black cows painted with

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Speaker 3: black and white stripes had fewer biting flies land on

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Speaker 3: them and also showed fewer fly repelling behaviors, all the

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Speaker 3: different kinds of you know, the shoe fly dance. The

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Speaker 3: authors say that based on these results, it may be

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Speaker 3: the case that painting zebra stripes on solid colored livestock

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Speaker 3: can reduce the burden from biting flies without resorting to

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Speaker 3: other interventions like applying pesticides to livestock, which can also

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Speaker 3: be effective, but that comes with downside such as contributing

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Speaker 3: to long term pesticide resistance in the environment.

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Speaker 2: So if true. It's one of those things where you

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Speaker 2: might say, well, it doesn't cost that much to paint

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Speaker 2: the cows, let's go ahead and do it regularly. Do

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Speaker 2: it and if it's working a little bit, great.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, seems like it. Now. One thing to note here

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Speaker 3: is again this was a small experiment. There were just

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Speaker 3: six cows here, so we should not draw like hugely

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Speaker 3: firm conclusions based on it, and more of a pilot

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Speaker 3: to open the way to more highly powered research.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as is often the case.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's move on to the next one. This is

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Speaker 2: we want to highlight the chemistry prize. This one went

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Speaker 2: to a twenty sixteen US Israeli paper titled Polytetraflora ethylene

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Speaker 2: ingestion as a way to increase food volume and hint

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Speaker 2: society without increasing calorie content, published in Obesity Technology, written

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Speaker 2: by Neftalovich, Neftalovich and Greenway.

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Speaker 3: Wait a minute, PTFE ingestion as a way to increase

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Speaker 3: food volume.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, Yes, And this is one of those selections where

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Speaker 2: you can see why it is funny right at the

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Speaker 2: front end of things, because PTFE is also known by

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Speaker 2: the brand name Tefline. This is what John Gotti's teflon

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Speaker 2: don nickname was about because one of its uses is

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Speaker 2: in nonstick pans, right, so nothing sticks to it. Nothing

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Speaker 2: stuck to John Gotti at least for a while that situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's not just used in cookwaar.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, PTFE is a nonstick coating has like industrial and

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Speaker 3: medical uses as well, and you find it in all

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Speaker 3: kinds of stuff.

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Speaker 2: That's right. It's a synthetic fluoropolymer discovered in nineteen thirty eight, discovered,

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Speaker 2: invented however you want to look at it. It's commonly

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Speaker 2: used in nonstick coating for cookwaar, but it's also used

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Speaker 2: in wiring insulation, chemical resistance, lining coatings, and medical devices.

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Speaker 2: As an electronic insulator. It's used in stain repellent fabrics

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Speaker 2: and also in aerospace parts. So the funny part here is,

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Speaker 2: obviously the authors are suggesting a brand new use for PTFE,

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Speaker 2: and that is what if we ate it as a

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Speaker 2: food additive.

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Speaker 3: So it's just like you add a little bit of

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Speaker 3: salt and pepper tear meal and you also sprinkle in

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Speaker 3: some teflon.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I think it would be more than sprinkling. What

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Speaker 2: they're bulozing. Would be bulking it up like it would

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Speaker 2: be like a smoothie powder that gets added to your food.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, this paper boldly begins with the following quote,

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Speaker 2: civilization has zero calorie drinks, but we have not yet

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Speaker 2: made the leap into the realm of zero calorie foods.

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Speaker 2: The first step toward achieving this goal is the ability

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Speaker 2: to increase the volume of food without adding calories, the

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Speaker 2: final frontier, if you will, of eating zero calorie polymers.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to be a know it all, but

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Speaker 3: there there are not quite zero calorie bulking items, but

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Speaker 3: there are well known ways of bulking up food without

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Speaker 3: massively increasing the amount of calorie. A big one is fiber.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, but I guess part of it here

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Speaker 2: is that there are and is that this would be

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Speaker 2: mainly used to treat a obesity as the main factory here.

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Speaker 2: But yes, it also raises a number of questions what

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Speaker 2: we'll get to including you know, first of all, can

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Speaker 2: we do this? But also should we do this? And

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Speaker 2: indeed are there perhaps other things like fiber that maybe

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Speaker 2: we should be putting in the end of the diet instead.

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Speaker 2: Reading this study reminded me of a gag on thirty

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Speaker 2: Rock where Jenna is on a diet and she says

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Speaker 2: it's the Japanese paper diet, where she says I can

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Speaker 2: only eat paper, but I can eat all the paper

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Speaker 2: I want. Perfect Yeah, I mean to be clear, the

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Speaker 2: idea of eating paper as a diet. Yeah, eating paper

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Speaker 2: I think would technically net you zero calories because your

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Speaker 2: digestive system can't break down the cellulose, the main component

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Speaker 2: of paper or most paper anyway. But this is not

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Speaker 2: recommended as it's not good for your digestion, and that's

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Speaker 2: before you even consider potential chemical additives, and also the

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Speaker 2: ink that may be on the paper. Though there are

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Speaker 2: edible wrappings and even mediums for printing, I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: you could really make a diet out of those either.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, just the idea of eating paper for your diet.

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Speaker 2: It works for a joke, I don't think it would

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Speaker 2: work in real life. So back to consuming non flavored

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Speaker 2: ptfes as part of your diet. To be fair, the

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Speaker 2: proposal is a little more complicated than Hey, it has

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Speaker 2: zero calories, so why don't we eat it? First of all,

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Speaker 2: the general proposal is that it would be some sort

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Speaker 2: of additive again, perhaps like a smoothie powder to bulk

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Speaker 2: up actual food. You'd eat this food, but then a

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Speaker 2: percentage of the food volume would be indigestible. It cannot

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Speaker 2: be metabolized, so it just passes through, taking up space,

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Speaker 2: giving you the feeling of being full without itself metabolizing.

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Speaker 2: The rest of your meal would though. According to the paper,

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Speaker 2: they present this as a quote non metabolized food volume

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Speaker 2: bulking agent, and they charge that indeed PTFE is ideal

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Speaker 2: for this because it's quote widely considered to be the

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Speaker 2: most inert material known and is extremely stable. They also

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Speaker 2: add that it succeeds in being quote inert safe, resistant

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Speaker 2: to stomach acid, lax taste, available in powder form, smooth,

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Speaker 2: resistant to heat, and also cost effective.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's supposed to be resistant to heat

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Speaker 3: up to a point, right, There is a point in

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Speaker 3: which it becomes not resistant to heat, right right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, anyone who's ever looked into ptf E coated cookware,

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Speaker 2: there is a threshold beyond which you're not supposed to

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Speaker 2: heat it because then there can be health concerns with

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Speaker 2: you know, how things break down and what's released and

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Speaker 2: so forth. I guess they're arguing that within the human body,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't reach that threshold, which well, thank you say,

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you reach like five hundred degrees fahrenheit

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Speaker 2: within the body, something terrible has gone wrong. And just

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Speaker 2: speaking to the idea of PTF he's heating up in

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Speaker 2: the body, not to any other potential health ramifications here,

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Speaker 2: which again I think this obviously raises a ton of

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Speaker 2: questions that are not necessarily addressed in this paper or

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Speaker 2: would need to be addressed in follow up papers if

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Speaker 2: there was like really a huge drive to get ptfees

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Speaker 2: deliberately into food. But you know, that doesn't stop them

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Speaker 2: from presenting some evidence. They point to some studies that

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Speaker 2: claim that, and they claim that quote animal feeding trials

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Speaker 2: showed that rats fed a diet of twenty five percent

400
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Speaker 2: PTFE for ninety days had no signs of toxicity and

401
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Speaker 2: that the rats lost weight. And then they go on

402
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Speaker 2: to suggest a possible human consumption ratio of three parts

403
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Speaker 2: food to one part PTFE by volume, and again their

404
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Speaker 2: idea is this would be for therapeutic use in weight loss.

405
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Speaker 2: But I just want to really stress here that this

406
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Speaker 2: is absolutely not something that anyone out there should now

407
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Speaker 2: go out and line up for themselves. Don't try and

408
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 2: cook this up for yourself either. Don't develop your own

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Speaker 2: diet based on hearing about this study. This particular idea

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be picking up a lot of steam.

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Speaker 3: It's not getting a lot of takers in the nutrition community.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Again, I think part of it comes down

413
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Speaker 2: to is this really necessary? Are there perhaps better options?

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Speaker 2: And you know, and I think there's a strong case

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Speaker 2: to be made. Also, Again, this paper is nearly a

416
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Speaker 2: decade old at this point, and I think the proposal

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Speaker 2: feels more dare we say horrific Given concern in recent

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Speaker 2: years over so called forever chemicals and microplastics finding their

419
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Speaker 2: way into our bodies so obesity and weight loss, there are

420
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Speaker 2: certainly vowed concerns. But should we necessarily be looking for

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Speaker 2: all new reasons to produce these chemicals and to intentionally

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Speaker 2: ingest them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, as far as the safety of PTFI goes,

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Speaker 3: my memory of it is that generally PTFE itself seems

425
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Speaker 3: to be mostly safe within the temperature ranges, or is

426
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: thought to be based on what we know, But there

427
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: are legitimate questions about health effects arising from its manufacture

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Speaker 3: and from associated chemicals that could be brought along with.

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Speaker 2: It, right, right, So that's my understanding as well. So

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Speaker 2: I guess I come back coming back to this paper specifically,

431
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Speaker 2: like if everything in the paper is just one hundred

432
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Speaker 2: percent correct and it is perfectly safe to consume some

433
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Speaker 2: sort of hypothetical Again, this doesn't I think, really exist yet,

434
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Speaker 2: some hypothetical human grade ptf E food additive, would it

435
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: still be the thing we want to do and need

436
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: to do? But then again, I mean that's kind of

437
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 2: the beautiful thing about science, right, is sometimes you do

438
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 2: explore these big sort of what ifs, what is this

439
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 2: a potential solution? And you know, maybe one paper leans

440
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 2: a little more positive and if it's necessary for follow up,

441
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 2: there will be some more negative considerations as well.

442
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I certainly don't want to

443
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 3: be like snarky and dismissive. I mean, I try to

444
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 3: be open minded about things. But I will just let

445
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 3: me come back on the other side and advocate fiber.

446
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: I mean, fiber is great. It's like that's a common

447
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 3: thing found in many foods. You can get a you know,

448
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: like high fiber foods are a great way to bulk

449
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 3: up and feel more full from your meals. And without

450
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 3: adding a lot of unnecessary, unnecessary calories.

451
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I think this solution that is presented here

452
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 2: feels a little bit too dystopian and apocalyptic. And the

453
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: best food for humans to eat remains food, or that's

454
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 2: what I prefer anyway, with the possible exception of certain

455
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: candies feel very far removed from food, and I still

456
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: eat those, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking that

457
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 2: I'm getting anything out of them on a health level.

458
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: Just wait until you hear about the proposal to bulk

459
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 3: all of our meals with Twizzlers.

460
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's exactly the candy I was thinking of

461
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: when when I'm eating it, I feel like it's plastic,

462
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: But it's a plastic I'm really into eating now, maybe

463
00:26:59,080 --> 00:26:59,959
Speaker 2: like once or twice a year.

464
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 4: Did you get your daily essential Twizzlers?

465
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: So yeah, in summary, I would say that one made

466
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: me laugh, made me think, and then made me frown

467
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: a little bit. But how about you, Joe, what's your

468
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: your next selection?

469
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 3: Okay, my next one's also about food, not ptfe for food.

470
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 3: So I'm going to talk about the twenty twenty five

471
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 3: Physics Prize presented to and once again long list of names.

472
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 3: I apologize for any mispronunciations. Jacquomo Bartolucci, Daniel Maria Busiello,

473
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: Matteo chi Arci, Alberto Cordicelli, Ivan di Terlisi, Fabrizio Olmeida

474
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: da Vida Ravignez, and Vincenzo Maria Schimenti. Four quote discoveries

475
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 3: about the physics of pasta sauce, especially the phase transition

476
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 3: that can lead to clumping, which can be a cause

477
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: of unpleasantness. The vapor in question was called phase behavior

478
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: of Cachiae pep bee sauce, published in the journal Physics

479
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 3: of Fluids in twenty twenty five. So a very recent one.

480
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: This is a great chaser after we're just talking about

481
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: potentially eating taflon and they were just like, you know,

482
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: when you have lumps and pasta sauce unpleasant?

483
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 3: It's true, Well, it is true. I don't like those lumps.

484
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 2: I don't mean, I mean, what's the substance of the lump?

485
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: Are we talking like a chunk of tomato? No?

486
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no no no. This is a broken

487
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: cheese sauce. Who likes a broken cheese sauce? H yeah, okay,

488
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 3: all right, yes, you've read Okay, so why is this funny.

489
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: I think it's funny because it's a paper in a

490
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: physics journal that's focused on how to make cheese sauce

491
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 3: like and on your base level. Also, it's just like cheese.

492
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: Cheese is a funny word and a funny substance. Absolutely,

493
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: as any toddler can tell you, you make a toddler

494
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 3: laugh by inserting cheese as like the wrong noun in

495
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 3: a sentence, any other noun. Instead substitute cheese, they will

496
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: lose their minds. It's amazing.

497
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, absolutely, cheese in and of itself funny word,

498
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: funny subject.

499
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: I think secondarily in the selection here there might be

500
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 3: a little bit of light cultural humor in the idea

501
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: that Italians can be so serious about pasta cooking technique

502
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: that they will explore it on the level of fluid

503
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: physics and the phase transition of matter. So the recipe

504
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 3: in question here is a great Italian classic. It's kachioe pepe,

505
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 3: which is pasta with cheese and pepper. Rob if you

506
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: ever made this one, you make caachio pepe at home.

507
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know that I have. I mean, this

508
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 2: is certainly the type of dish that I might do

509
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: as part of like a box meal. But maybe if

510
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 2: I've done it, it's been like so westernized that I'm

511
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: not recognizing it as such.

512
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a delightful dish. I have made a

513
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: version of it many, many times, more times than I

514
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 3: can count. Though, if you're talking to one of the

515
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: real witchfinder witchfinder generals, or would it be Witchfinders General,

516
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: is it like attorney's General. Yeah, I guess one of

517
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 3: the real witchfinders general. Of like traditional pasta technique, I

518
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 3: think my renditions of it are all blasphemous in one

519
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 3: way or another, because sometimes I add another source of fat,

520
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: like butter or olive oil, like so you make it

521
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 3: with black pepper in it, and I like toasting some

522
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 3: of the black pepper and olive oil. I think that's nice.

523
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: Sometimes I have used a mixture of cheeses in it,

524
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 3: or I have used parmesano reggiano instead of pecorino romano.

525
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: I think all of these things are not technically cachaae

526
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 3: pepe certainly not the traditional version, but some variation on

527
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: the theme.

528
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: Okay, this is not macaroni and cheese.

529
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 3: I mean it's the same idea, but no, it's a

530
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: different thing. So here I'll describe what it is. Traditional

531
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 3: cachao pepe like, you know, the kind they say that

532
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: a grandmother in Rome would make. Has no butter, no

533
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: olive oil, no other cheeses. It has exactly three ingredients.

534
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: It is pasta, peccorino, romano, cheese, and ground black pepper,

535
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 3: and I guess also water and salt. But for some

536
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: reason people don't usually count those as ingredients. Why not,

537
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: I don't know, but they're absolutely necessary. You need those

538
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 3: as well. Anyway. You might think, based on the fact

539
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: that there are only three ingredients, that this would be

540
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 3: a very easy dish to make, but as the authors

541
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: of this paper point out, classic catchaway peppe is notoriously

542
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: difficult to get just right, especially for beginners who haven't

543
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: made it a million times and gotten this intuitive feel

544
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: for it. The really difficult part to do perfectly is

545
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 3: achieving the right sauce consistency, which I would also argue

546
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: is the most difficult part of you know, from like

547
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 3: what you brought up American recipes like macaroni and cheese.

548
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: You know, the hardest part to get right is just

549
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 3: the right smoothness of the sauce in the finished product.

550
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: If you don't mix the cheese powder up enough.

551
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: So well, I mean, if you use the powder, you're

552
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: using the magic of chemistry there in a way that

553
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: really gives you a leg up. I'll get into that

554
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: in just a minute. So the classic technique is, you know,

555
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 3: you grind your pepper and you grate your peccorino romano cheese.

556
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: You do those ahead of time. Pecorino romano by the way,

557
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 3: if you don't know it, it's kind of a it's

558
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: a dry cheese. It's a salty, sharp, slightly gamy tasting

559
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: hard cheese made from sheep's milk. You boil pasta in

560
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: slightly salted water, and while the pasta boils, some starch

561
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 3: will leach out from the pasta and that gets gelatinized

562
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 3: in the cooking water. This is true anytime you make pasta,

563
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 3: and you reserve at least some of this starchy pasta

564
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: water to help build your cheese sauce. Of course, outside

565
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: of Cachawa peppe, starchy pasta water is an important ingredient

566
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: in building many pasta sauces and just generally in finishing

567
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: pasta dishes. So you to finish the dish, you melt

568
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: your grated pecorian omano cheese in some of the starchy

569
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 3: cooking water while mixing it up with the pasta. And

570
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: this is where a lot of things can go wrong.

571
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 3: If it is too hot, your cheese will not melt

572
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: smoothly and it will form these unappetizing lumps, the broken

573
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 3: cheese sauce thing where it's like got these rubbery little

574
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: protein clumps in it. If it's not hot enough, your

575
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 3: cheese will not melt fully into the water and it

576
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: will not form a sauce. If there is not enough

577
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 3: starch in your pasta cooking water, the melted cheese will

578
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: not emulsify, and once again you get the rubbery little

579
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: protein clumps. If there is too much starch, the sauce

580
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 3: loses its sauciness and it becomes stiff and unappetizing in

581
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: a different way. It's not really saucy. It's more kind

582
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 3: of like a meala or something.

583
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 2: Okay, I have to ask here again. Most of everything

584
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: that I know about cooking I learned from following box meals,

585
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: and so my wife taught me. So you frequently reached

586
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: that step where the instructions say save a little pot

587
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: water for later and at times. It often feels to

588
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: me like it's almost a magical exercise, Like, no.

589
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 3: It's really that really does something. Yes, yeah, okay, right,

590
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: absolutely does something and does and is more important in

591
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: some recipes than others. But yeah, you save a bit

592
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 3: of the pasta cooking water number one, just you have

593
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: this hot water on hand, maybe to help thin out

594
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: a sauce as you're finishing a pasta in the pan.

595
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: But also, it's not just water. It is water that

596
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 3: I mean. For one thing, it's a little bit seasoned

597
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 3: because you salted your cooking water. But more importantly, it

598
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: has starch from the pasta in it, which means it's

599
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 3: a little bit thicker than normal water. It has this

600
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: thickness and emulsifying capability that starchy water does.

601
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 2: Oh that's awesome. I had no idea. I just assumed

602
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 2: it was We saved it because it was hot and

603
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 2: it was salty, and maybe there was a little magic

604
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 2: to it. But there is a perfect sense.

605
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely a little bit of magic, and it's the starch.

606
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 3: So that's what I'm about to explain. So why does

607
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: starch in the water make the cheese sauce smooth instead

608
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: of broken and clumpy? It's because cheese contains both fats

609
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: and proteins mixed together with some water content as well.

610
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 3: It's basically a matrix of proteins that holds little droplets

611
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: of fat dispersed pretty evenly throughout. And when cheese melts,

612
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: one thing that happens is that the proteins in the

613
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 3: fats separate. And this is why if you like melt

614
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 3: a piece of cheese in the microwave, you can create

615
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 3: an oily grease slick. The proteins and the fats that

616
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: are in you know, when the cheese is not melted,

617
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: they're all mixed together. When you melt it, this the

618
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 3: fat separates and it forms this oil slick. And so

619
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: this is the fat content separating from the protein matrix.

620
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: When cheese is melted in a liquid like water, this

621
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: gross clumping can happen because the protein matrix, and this

622
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 3: is going to be mainly the protein casin in a

623
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 3: dairy base, you know, in things like cheese, the proteins,

624
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 3: all the casin proteins, come apart from their matrix and

625
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: then the loose proteins begin to bond to each other

626
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 3: and form these rubbery globs of protein. Also in this process.

627
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: Of course, the fat leaks out, it gets squeezed out

628
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 3: as the proteins you know, clump together, and it goes

629
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: its own way. If it's in water, this will mean

630
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 3: floating and pooling on the top of the water. This

631
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: is what you don't want to happen to your cheese sauce.

632
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 3: This is a broken sauce. So when you add starch

633
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: to boiling water, the starch gelatinizes and it thickens the water,

634
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: making it more viscous than just water on its own.

635
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: The thickness of the starchy water prevents the proteins and

636
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 3: fat in melting cheese each from aggregating and sticking to themselves.

637
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 3: So you end up with a smoother sauce with the

638
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 3: fat and the protein distributed more evenly throughout, instead of

639
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: rubbery casin clumps where all the proteins are sticking together

640
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: and a grease slick floating on top where all the

641
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 3: fat is separate and sticking to itself. But the way

642
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 3: I describe this here is like it is order of

643
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 3: operation sensitive. This is why you can't save an already

644
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: broken sauce by adding starch. Once the damage is done,

645
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: the starch is not gonna fix it. Starch only protects,

646
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 3: it does not repair. Also, the presence of starch can

647
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: only protect the cheese so much. Even in starchy water.

648
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 3: If you overheat the cheese, it will still be torn

649
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: asunder and the fats in proteins will separate. So starch

650
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: provides some heat protection, but not invincibility to heat. And

651
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 3: this is why the heat in making the cheese sauces

652
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 3: is so important. If you get it too hot, it's

653
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 3: gonna clump up and split no matter what you do.

654
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 2: This is a stressful recipe.

655
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, exactly. So it's a simple dish in terms

656
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 3: of ingredients, has got three ingredients apart from the salt

657
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 3: in the water. But getting this desirable smooth sauce in

658
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 3: the end is tricky and it takes a lot of experience.

659
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 3: You know. It's it's something that people make a million times.

660
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 3: You know, they make it over and over and they

661
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 3: get a feel for how it works. You are able

662
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 3: to kind of look at it and feel it as

663
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 3: you're stirring it around and know how much of everything

664
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 3: you need. But what if you don't have that feel? Well,

665
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 3: the authors of this paper examine the whole process in

666
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 3: a much more granular and quantitative way, and they come

667
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 3: up with like specific numerical and chemical recommendations to help

668
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 3: people achieve perfect catchioy pepe if they don't know what

669
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: they're doing quote. We identify starch concentration as the key

670
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: factor influencing sauce stability with direct implications for practical cooking. Specifically,

671
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 3: we delineate a regime where starch concentrations below one percent

672
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 3: relative to cheese maas lead to the formation of system

673
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: wide clumps, a condition determining what we term the mozzarella phase.

674
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: That's a bad thing. You don't want your cheese sauce

675
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 3: to turn into mozzarella clumps and corresponding to an unpleasant

676
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 3: and separated sauce. Additionally, we examine the impact of cheese

677
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 3: concentration relative to water at a fixed starch level, observing

678
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 3: a lower critical solution temperature that we theoretically rationalized by

679
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: means of a minimal effective free energy model. We further

680
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 3: analyze the effect of a less traditional stabilizer tri sodium citrate,

681
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 3: and observe a sharp transition from the mozzarella phase to

682
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,720
Speaker 3: a completely smooth and stable sauce in contrast to starch

683
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 3: stabilized mixtures where the transition is more gradual. Finally, we

684
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 3: present a scientifically optimized recipe based on our findings, enabling

685
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 3: a consistently flawless execution of this classic dish. So they've

686
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: got a fool proof method. Now I want to add

687
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 3: that they talk about the alternate method, where instead of starts,

688
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 3: you go with tri sodium citrate. I think a lot

689
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 3: of Italian cooking purists would rebel at the idea of

690
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: using sodium citrate to emulsify their cheese sauce, but in

691
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 3: the world of industrial food products, this is one of

692
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 3: the most used additives to ensure a stable emulsion and

693
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 3: to prevent sauces from splitting. Tri sodium citrate is one

694
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 3: of the key ingredients in cheese products that are made

695
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 3: explicitly for melting, things like Velveta and American cheese. Why

696
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 3: do they stay so creamy and not split when they

697
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: melt is because they have tri sodium citrate, this emulsifying agent,

698
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: which works in part, by the way, by helping prevent

699
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 3: the casin proteins from bonding together in the first place,

700
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 3: so that it like chemically sort of prevents them from clumping.

701
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 2: Okay, so use velvita when making this dish.

702
00:40:55,040 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 3: Yes, that's how to get the common section happy. Now,

703
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 3: assuming you don't go with sodium CITRATEE and you're relying

704
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 3: on starch in the pasta water to keep the cheese

705
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: sauce smooth, you want to aim, they say, for a

706
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: concentration that is between two and three percent of the

707
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: cheese weight that you're using. Reading from the paper here quote.

708
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 3: If the starch content is less than one percent of

709
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 3: the cheese weight, the sauce is prone to separating into

710
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: unpleasant system sized clumps, corresponding to the mod cyrilla phase

711
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 3: and Figures one and two. On the other hand, exceeding

712
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 3: four percent of starch results in a sauce that becomes

713
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 3: stiff and unappetizing as it cools. Rob This is it's

714
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 3: kind of hard to describe this if I don't know

715
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 3: if you've ever made an over starched pasta, but it

716
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 3: starts to become not really saucy and more like it's

717
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 3: kind of held together by a glue, sort of an

718
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 3: unpleasant gluy texture in between the.

719
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: Noodles, like would maybe begin to feel more like a

720
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: cheese dip as opposed to a pasta dish.

721
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 3: Is well, yeah, I mean just it would be too

722
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 3: too sticky and too doughey. Almost in the saw it

723
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 3: becomes less like a sauce and more like a batter.

724
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 2: Okay, I see what you mean.

725
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. Then they finally say the ideal range is confirmed

726
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 3: by both taste and texture tests, lies between two and

727
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 3: three percent, ensuring stability and a pleasant consistency. So, for example,

728
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: they give exact ratios. They say, you want to make

729
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 3: two servings of catchaway pepe, you would start with three

730
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 3: hundred grams of dried pasta, two hundred grams of cheese,

731
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 3: and then four that two hundred grams of cheese. You

732
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 3: would want five grams of starch in about fifty grams

733
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 3: of water, so you could use a starch like five

734
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 3: grams of corn starch or potato starch dissolved in fifty

735
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 3: grams of water. Traditionally, you get the right amount of

736
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 3: starch here by using feel and by using the pasta

737
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 3: cooking water, sometimes concentrating the starch content by boiling it

738
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: down a little bit extra so you concentrate it. This

739
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 3: is called resotata. But this still requires some guesswork. You

740
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 3: just got to like kind of look at it and

741
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 3: know what you're looking for, because obviously you can't practically

742
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: measure the starch content of the water once it's already dissolved.

743
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: So they say, if you're really looking for an easy shortcut,

744
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 3: you just make your sauce by dissolving five grams of

745
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 3: corn starch or potato starch and fifty grams of water,

746
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 3: heating it gently until it gelatinizes, then melting the cheese

747
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: into this mixture to make your sauce. I again, I

748
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: don't know if the pasta witch finder would approve, but

749
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 3: that's what they say.

750
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like can you imagine the chefs on the

751
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: bear doing it? Yeah, fine, that makes sense. They might

752
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: do something kind of like sciencey like that. But can

753
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: you imagine like stereotypical Italian grandma cooking this way?

754
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 3: Maybe not right? And once again there you're just getting

755
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 3: into somebody who's done this so many times. They know

756
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 3: it by feel. You don't have to really think about.

757
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: You're not measuring out things by weight, You just you

758
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 3: just eyeball it and it comes out right.

759
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: Well, now I'm beginning to understand why I've maybe not

760
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 2: cooked this before and it's maybe not been included in

761
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: some of the box meals that I've I've gotten over

762
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: the years, and maybe it's just a little too complex.

763
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 3: Rob, I'd say give it a try, try and make

764
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 3: catchaway Pepe. It's delicious. And you know, the worst scenario

765
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: is just like you accidentally overheat it and it gets

766
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,959
Speaker 3: a little clumpy and it's like, well that batch wasn't great,

767
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 3: you know, no big loss.

768
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: All right, maybe maybe it is worth the journey. All right,

769
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: We're gonna look at one more here fittingly, we're gonna

770
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: go from cheese to shoes. This one, this one was

771
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. This one was what made me

772
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 2: smile and then think and then legitimately laugh. It is

773
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: the Engineer Design Prize. This prize went to Vikash Kumar

774
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: and Sathak Mittal for Smelly Shoes an Opportunity for Shoe

775
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 2: rack Redesign. From the proceedings of the HWWE. I'm to

776
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: understand this is the Annual Conference of Indian of the

777
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 2: Indian Society of Ergonomics from and this was a twenty

778
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: seventeen presentation. So on the surface, yes, this paper is

779
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: funny because it is about smelly shoes, which this is

780
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 2: always going to be a funny concept so long as

781
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: you're not around the smelly shoes in question. Smelly shoes

782
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: become less funny if you were wearing them, or you're

783
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: having to put up with someone in else's smelly shoes.

784
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 3: Obviously it's even funnier though, if you're imagining smelling them

785
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 3: without knowing whether they are shoes or cheese. Yeah.

786
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there have been some fun experiments along those lines.

787
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: I think we've looked that over in the past. You know,

788
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: it depends on the context. If you were expecting to

789
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 2: smell cheese and you smell shoe, you know, then perhaps

790
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: you're okay with it. If you're expecting to smell a

791
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: shoe and you smell cheese, maybe not so. Context and

792
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 2: smells is extremely important. I think I've gone in this

793
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: rant before, but that's my take on the Durian fruit.

794
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: The Durian fruit pretty strong smells involved there. But I

795
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 2: think sometimes if one approaches if you approach the Durian

796
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 2: expecting a cheese, thinking of it as kind of a

797
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: cheese as fruit or a fruit as cheese, whichever way

798
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: it goes, then it makes a lot more sense.

799
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 3: Well, take it up with the Lord of Darkness in

800
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 3: the Boxer's omen universe.

801
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did like their Durian. So in this paper,

802
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: the authors present everything rather matter of factly. I think

803
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 2: they say, Okay, India can be a hot, sweaty place,

804
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 2: and as with pretty much everywhere else, we may regularly

805
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: wash our bodies, and we may regularly wash our clothing,

806
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 2: but not necessarily our shoes, you know, And I think

807
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 2: this holds true. Shoes are sometimes made of leather, or

808
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: they're in one way or another a little more complex

809
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: in their design. You can't necessarily throw them in the washer,

810
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 2: and then you can't really throw them in the dryer either,

811
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: because you know it'll clog up and make that awful

812
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 2: racket and potentially destroy your dryer. So, yeah, we don't

813
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: always give the shoe our shoes the same attention we

814
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: give our bodies in our clothing.

815
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 3: I'm gonna admit I am guilty of this. I am

816
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,760
Speaker 3: a very hygiene conscious person in terms of body and clothes,

817
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 3: but I do not think enough about keeping shoes clean

818
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: same same.

819
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 2: It's kind of like shoes are just gonna do what

820
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: they're gonna do. I have no control over it personally, right,

821
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 2: And so they established this, and okay, all right, we're

822
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: all on board with this, we kind of recognize the

823
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: universality of this. But their focus then kind of switches

824
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 2: to the use of shoe racks upon entrance to certain

825
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: interior spaces, and mainly they're talking about the home and

826
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 2: about you know, shoes off homes in India. I'm also

827
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 2: to understand religious spaces and certain shops and restaurants you know,

828
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: may also have these expectations in place, while larger Western

829
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: nine space western nized spaces are not going to have that.

830
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 2: I'd be interested to hear from folks out there who

831
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 2: are in India or have been to India. I've never been,

832
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: but I have visited countries where there's certainly more of

833
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 2: a custom of shoe removal, and and that's also the

834
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: way we do it in our house. We're generally a

835
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: shoes off household. And I really loved going to Japan,

836
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 2: where there's a lot of shoes off and pretty much

837
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 2: everywhere has a shoehorn handy, and that spoiled me. Once

838
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 2: I came back, It's like, why are there not shoehorns everywhere?

839
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: So now I have like one by the door that

840
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: I use, and I'm a little bit offended anywhere I

841
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: go that doesn't have a shoehorn.

842
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:41,879
Speaker 3: The long kind or the short kind.

843
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: Oh, the long kind.

844
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 3: There's the long kind.

845
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: Luxurious. I mean, it is one of ages. I guess too,

846
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 2: it makes more sense. But yeah, it's just it feels classy.

847
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 3: I remember when I was a kid discovering my late

848
00:48:55,200 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 3: grandfather's long goal themed shoehorn, which was like on this

849
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: piece of cane and add a shoehorn on one hand

850
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 3: and like a golf ball grip on the other.

851
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, mine's just plain wood that. I still like it.

852
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 2: It's still rather fond of it. So anyway, we've established okay,

853
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: we have scenarios where people are wearing shoes to a

854
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: house and then upon arrival at the house, they are

855
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 2: taking shoes off, and then where do shoes go, Well,

856
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: they go on some sort of a shoe rack, and

857
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 2: they point out they're like numerous different like common designs

858
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 2: for the shoe rack. And once we're into talking about

859
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: the design of an item, we're potentially talking about ergonomics,

860
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: we're talking about human efficiency and design, and they point

861
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 2: out that generally when we're talking about this, we're talking

862
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: about like the physical aspects of the device or a

863
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: device or structure. You know, there are so many different

864
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 2: ways to approach ergonomics, and you know, we've all had

865
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 2: some experience with ergonomic design or a lack of ergonomic design,

866
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: with everything from like a computer mouse to a doorframe.

867
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 2: Right like, we be designing things that meet us at

868
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 2: least halfway, and we that are that don't force us

869
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 2: to become less human in order to interact with them.

870
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 2: So fair enough, But then they point out that, Okay,

871
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: we tend to focus on the physicality of all this,

872
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 2: but we don't think about things like scent, and they

873
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: say that we should, and that concerns the shoe rack.

874
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 2: What can we be doing about the design of a

875
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: shoe rack, the kind of shoe rack that would be

876
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 2: in the immediate interior of one's home or just outside

877
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 2: one's door, or however it is arranged. What could we

878
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: do with the design here to make shoes less pungent?

879
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 3: A noble goal? It is, yeah, it is, it's.

880
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's pretty matter of fact. And they

881
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 2: they point out there, at least as of this publication,

882
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: there wasn't really anything in the market like this, So

883
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: they ultimately landed on this recommendation a shoe rack that

884
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: is fitted with a UVC tube light, with the UV

885
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: lighting here targeting the bacteria on and in the shoes

886
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 2: responsible for the shoe odor.

887
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm following you.

888
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and they and they ultimately even arrive at

889
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: exactly what kind of exposure they're looking at. They're looking

890
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: at about two to three minutes of exposure to the UV

891
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 2: treatment and this would sufficiently eliminate a lot of the

892
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 2: odor associated with the shoe rack, which would then make

893
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: interacting with the shoe rack a more pleasant experience, and therefore,

894
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 2: I guess you could say interacting with the home itself

895
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: a more pleasant experience. Again, this seems perfectly reasonable. Yeah only,

896
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 2: and only mildly funny. But what I found really hilarious

897
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 2: was the chart on their experimentation with the UV lighting

898
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 2: on the shoe rack. And to be clear, I'm not

899
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 2: making fun of the research or the researchers here, but

900
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 2: just the mental imagery of this legitimate experiment makes me giggle.

901
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: So I included the table here for you Joe's Table two.

902
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 2: Exposure time of UVC tube light and odor observed. And

903
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 2: so we get we get exposure in minutes from zero

904
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 2: minutes to fifteen minutes. And then we also have the

905
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: foulness of the shoe smell rated as well, and then

906
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: the smell doe to UV treatment.

907
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 3: Oh, it's a trade off, yeah.

908
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 2: And then the observations of what's happening.

909
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: Okay, So how's it go?

910
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm not going to just roll through every

911
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: detail of it, but let's start it at the on

912
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 2: one side of the chart and then get to the other.

913
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,720
Speaker 2: So zero minute exposure, the foul smell on the shoes

914
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 2: is three point five, which for this table, that's maximum.

915
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: That's just maximum. Shoe funk smell due to UV treatment

916
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 2: itself is zero, of course, because you haven't done anything

917
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 2: to it. And the observation strong pungent smell, rotten cheese

918
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: like smell.

919
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 3: Whose shoes were these?

920
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just shoes, all right, So let's go

921
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: ahead and crank it up. They crank it up to

922
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: two minute minutes of exposure. That reduces the foul smell

923
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 2: of the shoes to point five. So there's a little

924
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 2: bit of funk, but it's greatly reduced from three point five.

925
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 2: And the smell due to UV treatment is zero. And

926
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 2: they say that you just have an extremely low foul

927
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: smell and just a mild burnt rubber smell. Okay, And

928
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: from here this is where the burnt rubber smell cranks up,

929
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: because the next exposure thresholds are four minutes, six minutes,

930
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: ten minutes, fifteen minutes, and then the foul smell from

931
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 2: the shoes remains zero throughout, but the smell due to

932
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: the UV treatment increases, so eventually you're getting to a

933
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: fifteen minute exposure zero foul smell from the shoes, but

934
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 2: a four rating for smell due to UV treatment. And

935
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 2: then they add very strong burnt rubber smell shoe hot

936
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 2: ins extreme In this experiment, they found yes, if you

937
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 2: if you cook the shoes too much, they will no

938
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 2: longer smell a foot funk, but they will be hot

939
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 2: shoes that smell like burning rubber.

940
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 3: And thirty minutes your shoes become doctor Manhattan exactly.

941
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 2: So this this certainly made me laugh a bit, but

942
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: you know this, the experiment serves the purpose of them

943
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 2: figuring out, Okay, two to three minutes is really all

944
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 2: we need to sufficiently kill the bacteria and cure the

945
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 2: foul smell that is occurring with the shoes.

946
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 3: I find this inspiring.

947
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 2: It is it's inspiring. I mean it also outlines some

948
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 2: like additional design challenges here, right, how do you design

949
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 2: a UV powered shoe rack that is going to give

950
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: the appropriate amount of UV treatment to any given pair

951
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 2: of shoes without cooking them? And people coming back putting

952
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 2: on their hot shoes on a hot summer day and

953
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 2: their shoes smell like burnt rubber. Obviously they don't want

954
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 2: that either. So you know there's almost a poetry to it.

955
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 2: Too little attention and you have a stinky situation. Too

956
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 2: much attention and you have a different but even more

957
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 2: stinky situation. So you have to find that perfect balance

958
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: between the two. Bravo to the authors, absolutely, all right.

959
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 3: Does that do it for our coverage of the twenty

960
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 3: twenty five Ignobel Prizes?

961
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 2: I think so. I think we're going to go and

962
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,959
Speaker 2: close the book on the Ignobels for this year. But yeah,

963
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 2: hopefully they'll do it again next year and we'll be

964
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 2: back to talk about all new winners around the same time.

965
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 2: Sometimes we cover them, as we did this year, right

966
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 2: after they occur. Other times we come back after on

967
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: Cober and cover them a little late after things have

968
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 2: cooled off a little bit because, as is often the case,

969
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 2: the studies that are honored, they often get a lot

970
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:39,360
Speaker 2: of additional circulation and say like the late night comedy

971
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: press and so forth. All right, as always, will remind

972
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 2: everyone out there that Stuff to Blow your Mind. It's

973
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes on

974
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,000
Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays.

975
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 2: We set aside most serious concerns and just talk about

976
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,359
Speaker 2: a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

977
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

978
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 3: Would like to get in touch with us with feedback

979
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 3: on this episode or any other, to suggest topic for

980
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 3: the future, or just to say hello, you can email

981
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 3: us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

982
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

983
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

984
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.