WEBVTT - Part Two: How Tainted Human Blood Became A Major U.S. Export 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:09.440 Also media, Welcome back to the podcast that this is, 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:14.320 which is Behind the Bastards, a podcast about how to 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.240 mine prison labor for their sweet sweet blood. Uh oh, hepatitis. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:24.320 Uh the story we're talking about. Yeah, whoops, all hes 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.160 b see all of the heps. Collect them all, folks, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.040 if you're getting doing blood donations with needles that have 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.960 been used on dozens of other people in the prison. Anyway, 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:39.720 Ben Bowling my guest today, Ben ridiculous history stuff they 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:46.600 don't want you to know. Podcast Maven Impresario. Uh yeah, 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:48.080 how are you doing? How are you feeling? 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.000 I'm doing well. I got to tell you, Robert, I 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:54.840 got a little bit of epaulet envy right now because 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.880 your jacket's pretty sick. I got I got a jacket 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.440 like that, but it's uh, you know, it stored away 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:06.679 for specific purposes. I apologize. I'm like some guy rocking 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.200 up to the White House without a shoe. God, you know. 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:11.480 I mean. I live at a place where you get 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.200 to wear clothing like this regularly because it's cold. So 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.040 it's part of why I left Texas. I really like jackets, 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:22.000 and boy, very few places are worse for needing a 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:23.240 jacket than Texas. 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.279 You heard it here first most Yeah. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:33.600 Yeah, So you know, let's let's get back into talking 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.560 about talking about blood. The big be so, as I 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.400 mentioned in part one back in nineteen eighty three, HMA, 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.000 that's the company that is doing all of the healthcare 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.240 and all managing all the blood donation for the Arkansas prisons. 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.840 They've just been shut down, but then they got reopened 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:53.840 after some people who were close to the administration got 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:57.120 put in positions in both the prison board and at HMA. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:04.400 Oh and hma is Health Management Associates Associates Incorporated. What 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.080 do we always say about innocuous names. 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.200 Right, Yeah, that's the worst thing ever. Yes, they're just 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.720 killing people. You really want to just invest in a 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.200 company called murder COO because murder co probably just produces 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:17.440 like cat food or something. 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.520 So they're they're founded by the They're founded by Janine Murder. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:27.000 Yeah, Janine Murder. You know she's a great cat food 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:33.079 scientist of the New Hampshire Murders, of the. 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.240 New Hampshire Murders. Yeah, the Granite Stude. 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.639 As I mentioned in part one, in nineteen eighty three, 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.600 HMA had sold a boonch attainted blood plasma for inmates 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.959 who were known to be positive for hepatitis. Thirty eight 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.320 units of blood to be exact. Now, one unit of 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.640 blood there's actually varies, and I see because it depends 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.120 on like how it's but it's like a roughly a pint, right, 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:58.120 That's that's what you should keep in mind in your 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.320 head when you're hearing about a unit of blood and 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:03.480 the grand scheme of things, thirty eight pints or so 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:09.000 of blood that's tainted doesn't sound like a lot maybe. However, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.440 as I stated in the last episode, all of these 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.119 are being mixed with tens of thousands of other blood donations, 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:20.280 and so these thirty eight ish pints ish of tainted 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.200 blood can wind up being turned into medicine for tens 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.400 of thousands of people, right because any given dose of 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.080 the plasma being given to hemophiliacs as factor eight would 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:32.799 be made from the blood of as many as sixty 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.600 thousand donors, and just one tainted donor can spoil the batch. 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.200 So that's great. So from just thirty eight pints of 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:45.840 donated blood, at least four one thousand doses of dangerous 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:50.320 tainted medicine were made and shipped overseas. At least probably 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.200 significantly more than that, many made their way into the 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.680 hands of hemophiliacs who required regular injections of factor eight. 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.400 In nineteen eighty five, the same year as Clinton that 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.920 Clinton's state cops cleared the company of most wrongdoing, a 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:10.000 UK hemophilias sufferer named Peter Longstaff tested positive for HIV. Now, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.960 because the way this all works, we don't know that 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:18.080 Peter's tainted plasma came from Arkansas prison inmates, right, because 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:19.760 you can't. They just mixing it. They're not keeping track 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.080 of here's every individual whose blood is in this batch 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:26.440 of factor eight, right, But he'd been taking blood products, 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.919 including factor eight and factor four since the seventies, and 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.240 by then Arkansas was a huge part of the US 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.320 blood economy, and the odds that blood from Cummen's Prison 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.400 made it into his body are about one hundred percent, right, 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:40.840 just given the way things worked at that time. His 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.440 brother also suffered from hemophelia, and his brother, Stephen long Staff, 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.720 would be infected in nineteen eighty six and became one 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.840 of the first people to die of AIDS in the UK. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.719 Given the hysteria at the time, this meant not just 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.640 that the long Staffs weren't just dealing with the fact 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.520 that two of you know, both of their sons had 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.359 gotten sick and you know, in eighty six one of 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.719 them died. But it meant that they also became the 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.560 targets of mob panic. Per The Guardian, during Stephen's final 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.040 days in hospital, the windows had to be blacked out 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.279 to prevent people taking pictures. On the day of the funeral, 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:15.200 the family house was daubed with paint which read aids 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.440 get out of here. It was devastating to the family, 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.839 his mother said. Pete himself recalled being rescued from his 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.200 house by his GP and the police because there was 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.960 a mob outside trying to get him because he had HIV. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.400 So when we talk about how many people are getting sick, 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.240 it's not just that they're getting a deadly or potentially 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:35.960 deadly disease that changes or in their life. It's also 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.400 they're dealing with this kind of shit because that is 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.520 where the culture is at the time, you know. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:49.640 The secondary infection, right of outbreak, Yeah, of dickishness. Yeah. 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:53.440 So we could say then, yeah, we could say then 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:59.360 that not only is this family being targeted unfairly through 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.920 some ground swell of mob rule, but they're being targeted 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:06.400 at one of the worst possible moments of their lives. 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:06.920 Yeah. 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.719 I remember when I was in school in like the nineties, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.400 we had like school lectures about how like, yeah, there 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.920 was a kid with HIV. I think because you'd gotten 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.280 it through a blood donation and you could still use 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.720 the water fountain that he used, it wasn't a danger 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:20.400 to you, you know. 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:22.640 Which might sound silly to us, it. 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.680 Sounds wild now, But no, we that I remember this. Yeah, 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.760 you were there, Yeah, just like. 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:31.840 You were there at the JFK assassination. 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.120 We will you know, I know who was there, and 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.280 I know that he is currently, you know, a well 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.720 regarded US politician, But Bernard Montgomery Sanders has a lot 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.240 of unanswered questions about it. That's all ways, that's all 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:46.799 we need to say. That's all we need to say. 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.640 All right, we're keeping it there, Bernie, come find us 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:51.360 buy some catalytic characters. 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.200 Yeah. So HMA ultimately settled with the FDA of the 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.920 blood recall that resulted from this. Their share of the 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.600 liability was about a quarter of a million dollars. Now, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.039 we don't know how much money HMA was making off 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.000 of this program, in part because they weren't really required 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:08.520 to like let people like some of the regulations about 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.040 this are like, you don't really need to say in 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.080 the sense that most companies do, but at least a 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.720 couple of million dollars a year is probably a fair 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:21.240 guest based on how like what the company that takes 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:23.840 over for them is going to make Now. The state 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:28.000 police investigation largely cleared the department of any serious wrongdoing 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.640 in their plasma problem. HMA was eventually given the go 0:07:31.680 --> 0:07:36.720 ahead to continue operating it with new safeguards in place. Thankfully, 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.120 the growing panic over HIV and the news of what 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.720 had happened to the long staffs in the UK prompted 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.400 some re examination and even though they were allowed to 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.520 continue in like eighty four or eighty five doing this 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.040 this plasma do Nation program, in the summer of nineteen 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:54.760 eighty six, a hero emerged and unfortunately in this case, 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.440 the hero is an insurance company, but like HMA's insurance company, 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.080 after they after they looked into the evidence, was like, oh, 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.760 absolutely not, no, you people are going to get us fucked, 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:09.320 Like you're so reckless, we're dropping your asses right. This 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:13.160 meant that the Arkansaw prison plasma donation program was again 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:18.240 forced to shut down, and this is going to lead 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:24.200 to some of the most i mean, less irresponsible actions 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:25.800 than we've had so far. So one of the things 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.480 that happens once HMA gets shut down by their insurer, 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:30.920 the prison board, in which the guy we heard from 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.680 last episode, Clinton Aide Bobby Roberts, is a member of 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.000 the board. They actually they're like, they they met, come 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.040 to the conclusion that, like that state police investigation might 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.040 have been shit, and they hire an outside organization to 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.000 do a better version of the internal investigation into what 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.760 had happened. Now, the group they picked was the Institute 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.000 for Law and Policy Planning from Berkeley, California, which is 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:53.920 a lot better than having the state police do it. 0:08:54.360 --> 0:08:57.880 But the subject of the investigation wasn't the plasma donation 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.320 program itself. It was just the behavior of HMA. So 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:03.560 part of what they're doing here is good that we 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.319 get this info, but part of what they're doing is like, well, 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.040 we don't want to be like shitting on the prison system. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.600 We want to make this company, who we already can't 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.000 work with anymore, into a scapegoat. 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:19.239 So they scoped in and you flatterized the WOU. 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:24.000 Right exactly, Yes, yeah, and this is how the paper concludes. 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:27.720 HMA originally may have diverted the Department of Correction payments 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.720 to support acquiring plasma centers or to other purposes that 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.679 may well warrant further inquiry. In any event, it was 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.560 early in the five year contract period that HMA established 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.200 a pattern of contract shortfalls and the ADC accepted them 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:43.239 for HMA. This must all be viewed as profit motivated 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.280 business decision making it best. At worst, it calls for 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:51.000 further inquiry. So just like so many crimes are going 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:56.120 on here. Yeah, now, even though it has concluded this again, 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:59.240 it's just blaming HMA. So the people running the prison 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.560 system still want to make money off of blood. So 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.000 the Arkansas Apartment of Corrections makes a deal with a 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:10.880 new company, Pine Bluff Biological Products, a for profit business 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.199 and obviously one that's not going to continue the same problems. 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:20.559 These guys are finally going to be ethical, up. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.720 Up and up, someone doing blood money the right way. 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.280 Yes, you know, exactly ethical, just like the ethical blood 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:33.000 diamonds that I wear in my my all diamond chaffon. 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.280 I don't know what a chaffon is, yeah, but you know. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.280 Yours is diamond encrusted. That's the important part of the story. 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.360 Yes, and they're not blood diamonds, they're blood plasma diamonds, 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:43.560 which is much more ethical. 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.400 Think about it. That's why I made my money off 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.400 of platelet emerald mind. 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.160 Exactly exactly plate Let's make the best emeralds. I assume 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.480 so Roberts, Bobby Roberts would later allege of pine Bluff 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.600 Biological Products getting the new blood contract. Quote, I think 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.679 it was an insider pine Bluff deal. There were those 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.479 were companies set up specifically for doing business with the ADC. Basically, 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.920 people who were running the Department of Corrections went to 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.080 rich you know, entrepreneur friends of theirs and are like, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:14.760 here's what you need to do to set up a 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.480 company to like make this work. Right now, I know 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.000 what you're asking now, how much money was in this 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.080 business for the prison system? 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.920 And the answer, wait, wait, let me do it, hey, Robert, 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:30.040 how much money was in this for the prison system? 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:33.840 The answer is less than you'd think. Here's the Arkansas Times. 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.000 According to Robert's records, PBBP reported collecting an average of 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.200 nine hundred and sixty units of plasma a week in 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.200 fiscal year nineteen eighty six calculated a conserving selling rate 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.640 of fifty dollars a unit. That volume of plasma grows 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.800 to proximately two point five million that year. According to 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.040 pbbp's contract, the ADC was to receive five dollars for 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.760 every unit of plasma collected. So here's how the numbers 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.400 looked in a year when the media and income in 0:11:57.520 --> 0:11:59.600 Arkansas was half of what it is today and when 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.160 the scury contaminated blood products was being felt around the world. 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.720 Of PBBPS two point five million in annual gross sales, 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.079 three hundred and fifty thousand went to pay inmates their 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.120 seven dollars a unit fees. The State of Arkansas collected 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.440 two hundred and forty nine thousand, six hundred dollars for 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.360 prison operations, and PBBP had gross revenues of almost one 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.600 point nine million. Now that sounds weirdly small for those 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:24.439 First off, this is not all the money that's coming 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.800 in through the program. But second, what's happening here is 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.720 the state and the prisons are getting, you know, a 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.000 little bit of this money, and most of that prisoner 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.280 money is also going back into the Department of Corrections 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.280 because they're using it to buy things from the prisons. 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.880 Most of the money is going to PBBP. And again, 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.119 this is a company that has been set up specifically 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:48.360 to interface with the Department of Corrections, generally by people 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:52.760 who had relationships with people in Arkansas government who were 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.440 responsible for making these calls. So they basically created a 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.040 free company to siphon off money from the prisons. Right, 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.400 That's kind of what's happened here. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.280 Yeah, that's the question I think all of us hearing 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.360 this or are going to be asking naturally, is this 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.079 a cutout? Is this like a proxy to move or 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:12.840 sluice some money through. 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.520 That There's that's kind of that's an element of what 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.400 is going on. And there's also serious debates as to 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.920 these numbers. This is what the Arkansas Times suggests. There's 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.600 a Sophia Chase where for the William and Mary Business 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.840 Law Review that the value of a unit of blood 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.800 to the prison was about one hundred bucks and the 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:31.880 prison kept half of that as opposed to like five 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.360 dollars per unit, So they may have it may have 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.560 been a lot more going into the system. The fact 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.880 that the money on this is so unclear in its 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:47.079 precise details. As one of the things that's shady. Yeah, death. Now, 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.200 even if let's say it's about two million dollars that 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:53.360 PBBP is grossing, now that's gross, not yet net. But 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.160 they effectively have almost no costs because they don't build 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.360 their own facilities. They are using a plasma Faresis center 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.319 built into Cummins Prison for free. That's part of the contract. 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.319 The Department of Corrections handles all utilities and all janitorial work, 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:11.400 and it's also guards who are working reaching out to 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.599 prisoners to get them to sign onto the program and 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:15.720 busting them to Cummins. And it's still a lot of 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:20.080 inmates doing the work. So really PBBP is just skimming 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:23.440 two million dollars out of this program and handing it 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.440 to some people who have connections to folks who are 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:32.080 close to the ADC. Right, so, as far as I 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:36.200 can tell, all pp PBBP the company did was sell 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.160 blood without checking to make sure it was safe and 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.920 pocketed the money on paper. They were supposed to assume 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.840 liability for all plasma products produced through this and ensure 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.640 they provided staff to handle the draw and that those 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.280 staff were licensed professionals who would check the product. But 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.800 the ADEC also kept giving them inmates to do blood 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.520 draws and other work that, by the text of the contract, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:15:00.600 professional PBBP employees ought only to have been doing. Roberts 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.880 described the PBBP looking at the inmates as quote, sort 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.480 of as little cows right here the subscription A lot 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.640 that they're like, this is these are yeah, these are 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.800 animals that we are mining for the products of their body. Now, 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.600 by nineteen eighty six, when PBBP starts, we are four 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.720 years past the point where the US has essentially soft 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:26.600 banned the use of domestic inmate blood. However, it continues 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.120 to be used for export products. Cutter Laboratories, which is 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.080 one of the companies involved in the nuts and bolts 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.040 parts of turning whole blood into like blood products, publishes 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.080 an internal memo around this time that highlights the attitude 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:41.600 many in the industry had to the idea of excluding 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.080 prison plasma donations. There are no data to support the 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:49.040 emotional arguments that prison plasma collected from adequately screened prisoners 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:53.000 is bad. To exclude such plasma from manufacture of our 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.000 coagulation product would only be a soop or a gratuity 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.160 to the gay rights movement, and would presage further pressure 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.880 to exclude plays asma collected from the Mexican border and 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:10.720 the paid donor. 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:08.680 To suit one more time. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.160 Yeah, yeah, to exclude such plasma from manufacture of our 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.320 coagulation product would only be a sopper gratuity to the 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.240 gay rights movement and would presage further pressure to exclude 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.320 plasma collected from the Mexican border and the paid donor. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.280 Oh my gosh. Yeah, Well, someone make. 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.960 Less money if we have to use blood that isn't 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.600 taken coercively by people who have an incentive to lie 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.720 about whether or not they're sick. And again, when I 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.680 talk about there being a lot more money, like what 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:42.480 PBP is making is the initial money for selling this plasma, right, 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.040 and both the plasma and the whole blood that's coming 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.440 in through these donation programs are worth a shitload more 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:51.560 once you spin them out into the different blood factors. Right, 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.520 So this there's a whole higher level of profit that 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:59.760 these companies like Cutter are making. Right. Likewise, you know, 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.200 the US has said we're not using this stuff domestically 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:05.359 for medicine, and like it was, our foreign friends in 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.040 the UK and Canada don't allow blood from prison inmates 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.479 to be used in medicine, but a system had been 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:14.239 devised to ensure plausible deniability. The blood that came out 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.680 of Cummins and other donor programs in the US was 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:22.200 sold to Continental Pharmachrino in Montreal, and this major blood 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.639 broker resells the whole blood in plasma all around the world. 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.400 And it also sells to a Toronto based company, Connet Laboratories, 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.280 who effectively played the role of blood launderer and sent 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.360 this tainted blood to the Canadian Red Cross. The laundering 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.920 process was so effective that, as Sophia Chase writes, and 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.040 at least one case, the blood was sent back to 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:44.480 the United States. So we are also using tainted blood 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.080 in the US from inmates, even though we're not supposed 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.159 to be, because it's being sold to Canada and then 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:50.960 sold back to US sometimes like. 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:57.440 Yeah, excuse me, excuse me, waiter, send this blood back. 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.280 Yes, send this one, but back across the border to 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:01.080 our good friends. 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.320 Also, blood launderer as a job. 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:05.360 This is blood laundering. 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.040 Yeah, we're in the wrong business. Yeah. 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.399 Also there's so much money laundering blood. Oh man, do 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.480 you ever think about that? Mm hmm, I do. I 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.720 do you know I have a shitlttle blood in my house. 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.320 I keep People always say that, Yeah, I keep it 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.800 in my basement. I don't know if it needs to 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.760 be refrigerated, but you know, make me an offer, folks, 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:26.560 if you need a shit little blood, I got it. 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:32.320 Cool Store is cool blood stored. It's a dark place. 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:37.040 Cool Cool Zone is getting into the blood business. So 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.080 you're legally not allowed to ask me where it came from. 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.119 Yeah, it's illegal for you guys to ask Robert that. 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.639 It's important. It's so important we can't know. 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.800 Yeah, it's also important to realize that the fewer questions 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.240 you ask, the bigger of a price break you get. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.399 That's right, and that seems to be an unfortunate truth 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.800 as this. We could even call it a sort of 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.760 blood economy. Yeah, begins to arise. 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:06.720 That's right. That's right. And speaking of the economy, I 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.360 don't know if our sponsors sell blood, but they sell 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.359 other stuff. So go buy it and then give me 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:21.680 your blood. We're back. So even under PBBP, this new company, 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.920 the same problems persisted. Prisoners continue to be involved in 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.680 running the plasma program. They regularly overbleed each other because 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.639 it means more money for them, and neither the prison 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:34.600 system nor the company has a financial interest in stopping 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:39.440 that records are regularly falsified and destroyed. Earlier in these episodes, 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.000 we quoted from Clinton friend and prison board member Bobby 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.320 Bobby Roberts. He's been something of a whistleblower about the program, 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.399 but just to an extent. When the FDA published a 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.520 study alleging that prison plasma was likelier to be tainted 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.040 with blood than plasma donated elsewhere, Roberts told reporters from 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:59.040 the Arkansas Times this, I deny the premise. I disagree 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.560 that prison plasma blood was more dangerous than what was 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:03.800 coming out of the for profit centers. In the free 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:08.399 world out there, anybody could bleed anybody, and like, but 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:12.320 the problem isn't everyone has blood. The problem is that 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:14.520 it's not being checked. And there's a lot of incentives 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.280 to lie when you're sick, when you have no other 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:18.240 way of making money because you're in prison. 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.679 Right, Like, Also, you can't just say I disagree with 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:22.280 the premise. 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.600 Yeah, it's like the FDA. You're not You're Bobby Roberts, 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.919 for one thing. Your name's Bobby Roberts. I I ultimate immediately, 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.880 I'm less likely to take you seriously about medical science. 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:35.200 Both of your names are the same. 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:40.680 I just I love the idea bob Rob of Bob 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:45.760 Rob a hot tag base. Yeah, on something where you know, 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.239 like this guy might get arrested with a bunch of 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.640 guns with the serial numbers filed off, and they're like, hey, 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:54.600 we got you with a bunch of guns, you know, 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:57.840 in your Honda Civic and he's like, officer, I disagree 0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.119 with the press, disagree. 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:05.439 With the premise. Yeah. That article continues to summarize Roberts's argument. 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:08.639 Roberts basis is confidence in the state's plasma program, on 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.720 the fact that, unlike downtown plasma centers, the ADC had 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.600 medical records on every inmate who participated. It knew who 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:19.640 was safe to bleed, he says, and who wasn't. 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.680 And we can we take a second to also, come on, man, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:23.720 the use of. 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:26.159 The word bleed like this, Yes, yeah, it was just 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:30.879 so safe to bleed, right to bleed? Yes, yeah. And 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:37.160 he's rights as records good and it often knows when 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.679 people have blood born illnesses. The issue is that they 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:43.080 don't care. Per the paper written by Sophie chase. Multiple 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.760 witnesses to the events claimed that the Plasma center accepted 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:49.200 some donations from prisoners known to fail the required qualifications. 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.840 A previous inmate, Lewis Sorels, described the conditions at the prison. 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:57.320 You had prisoners bribing prisoners, prisoners bribing officials, officials offering 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.720 certain deals for them to bleed for extra money or drugs. 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.840 Sorels himself passed away from hepatitis CEE shortly after the interview. 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:07.639 He became infected with this disease during his time at 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:13.399