1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome back to the podcast that this is, 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: which is Behind the Bastards, a podcast about how to 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: mine prison labor for their sweet sweet blood. Uh oh, hepatitis. 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: Uh the story we're talking about. Yeah, whoops, all hes 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: b see all of the heps. Collect them all, folks, 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: if you're getting doing blood donations with needles that have 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: been used on dozens of other people in the prison. Anyway, 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: Ben Bowling my guest today, Ben ridiculous history stuff they 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Podcast Maven Impresario. Uh yeah, 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: how are you doing? How are you feeling? 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I got to tell you, Robert, I 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: got a little bit of epaulet envy right now because 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: your jacket's pretty sick. I got I got a jacket 14 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 2: like that, but it's uh, you know, it stored away 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: for specific purposes. I apologize. I'm like some guy rocking 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: up to the White House without a shoe. God, you know. 17 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: I mean. I live at a place where you get 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: to wear clothing like this regularly because it's cold. So 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: it's part of why I left Texas. I really like jackets, 20 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: and boy, very few places are worse for needing a 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: jacket than Texas. 22 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,279 Speaker 2: You heard it here first most Yeah. 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, let's let's get back into talking 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: about talking about blood. The big be so, as I 25 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: mentioned in part one back in nineteen eighty three, HMA, 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: that's the company that is doing all of the healthcare 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: and all managing all the blood donation for the Arkansas prisons. 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: They've just been shut down, but then they got reopened 29 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: after some people who were close to the administration got 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: put in positions in both the prison board and at HMA. 31 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: Oh and hma is Health Management Associates Associates Incorporated. What 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: do we always say about innocuous names. 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's the worst thing ever. Yes, they're just 34 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: killing people. You really want to just invest in a 35 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: company called murder COO because murder co probably just produces 36 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: like cat food or something. 37 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: So they're they're founded by the They're founded by Janine Murder. 38 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Janine Murder. You know she's a great cat food 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: scientist of the New Hampshire Murders, of the. 40 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: New Hampshire Murders. Yeah, the Granite Stude. 41 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: As I mentioned in part one, in nineteen eighty three, 42 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: HMA had sold a boonch attainted blood plasma for inmates 43 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 1: who were known to be positive for hepatitis. Thirty eight 44 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: units of blood to be exact. Now, one unit of 45 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: blood there's actually varies, and I see because it depends 46 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: on like how it's but it's like a roughly a pint, right, 47 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: That's that's what you should keep in mind in your 48 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: head when you're hearing about a unit of blood and 49 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: the grand scheme of things, thirty eight pints or so 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: of blood that's tainted doesn't sound like a lot maybe. However, 51 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: as I stated in the last episode, all of these 52 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 1: are being mixed with tens of thousands of other blood donations, 53 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: and so these thirty eight ish pints ish of tainted 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: blood can wind up being turned into medicine for tens 55 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: of thousands of people, right because any given dose of 56 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: the plasma being given to hemophiliacs as factor eight would 57 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:32,799 Speaker 1: be made from the blood of as many as sixty 58 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: thousand donors, and just one tainted donor can spoil the batch. 59 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: So that's great. So from just thirty eight pints of 60 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: donated blood, at least four one thousand doses of dangerous 61 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: tainted medicine were made and shipped overseas. At least probably 62 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: significantly more than that, many made their way into the 63 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: hands of hemophiliacs who required regular injections of factor eight. 64 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, the same year as Clinton that 65 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: Clinton's state cops cleared the company of most wrongdoing, a 66 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: UK hemophilias sufferer named Peter Longstaff tested positive for HIV. Now, 67 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: because the way this all works, we don't know that 68 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: Peter's tainted plasma came from Arkansas prison inmates, right, because 69 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: you can't. They just mixing it. They're not keeping track 70 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: of here's every individual whose blood is in this batch 71 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: of factor eight, right, But he'd been taking blood products, 72 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 1: including factor eight and factor four since the seventies, and 73 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: by then Arkansas was a huge part of the US 74 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: blood economy, and the odds that blood from Cummen's Prison 75 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: made it into his body are about one hundred percent, right, 76 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: just given the way things worked at that time. His 77 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: brother also suffered from hemophelia, and his brother, Stephen long Staff, 78 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: would be infected in nineteen eighty six and became one 79 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: of the first people to die of AIDS in the UK. 80 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: Given the hysteria at the time, this meant not just 81 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: that the long Staffs weren't just dealing with the fact 82 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: that two of you know, both of their sons had 83 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: gotten sick and you know, in eighty six one of 84 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: them died. But it meant that they also became the 85 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: targets of mob panic. Per The Guardian, during Stephen's final 86 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: days in hospital, the windows had to be blacked out 87 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: to prevent people taking pictures. On the day of the funeral, 88 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: the family house was daubed with paint which read aids 89 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: get out of here. It was devastating to the family, 90 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: his mother said. Pete himself recalled being rescued from his 91 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: house by his GP and the police because there was 92 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: a mob outside trying to get him because he had HIV. 93 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: So when we talk about how many people are getting sick, 94 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: it's not just that they're getting a deadly or potentially 95 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: deadly disease that changes or in their life. It's also 96 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: they're dealing with this kind of shit because that is 97 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: where the culture is at the time, you know. 98 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: The secondary infection, right of outbreak, Yeah, of dickishness. Yeah. 99 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: So we could say then, yeah, we could say then 100 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 2: that not only is this family being targeted unfairly through 101 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: some ground swell of mob rule, but they're being targeted 102 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: at one of the worst possible moments of their lives. 103 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 104 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: I remember when I was in school in like the nineties, 105 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: we had like school lectures about how like, yeah, there 106 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: was a kid with HIV. I think because you'd gotten 107 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: it through a blood donation and you could still use 108 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: the water fountain that he used, it wasn't a danger 109 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: to you, you know. 110 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: Which might sound silly to us, it. 111 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: Sounds wild now, But no, we that I remember this. Yeah, 112 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: you were there, Yeah, just like. 113 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: You were there at the JFK assassination. 114 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: We will you know, I know who was there, and 115 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: I know that he is currently, you know, a well 116 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: regarded US politician, But Bernard Montgomery Sanders has a lot 117 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: of unanswered questions about it. That's all ways, that's all 118 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: we need to say. That's all we need to say. 119 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: All right, we're keeping it there, Bernie, come find us 120 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: buy some catalytic characters. 121 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. So HMA ultimately settled with the FDA of the 122 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: blood recall that resulted from this. Their share of the 123 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: liability was about a quarter of a million dollars. Now, 124 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: we don't know how much money HMA was making off 125 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: of this program, in part because they weren't really required 126 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: to like let people like some of the regulations about 127 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: this are like, you don't really need to say in 128 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: the sense that most companies do, but at least a 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: couple of million dollars a year is probably a fair 130 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: guest based on how like what the company that takes 131 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: over for them is going to make Now. The state 132 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: police investigation largely cleared the department of any serious wrongdoing 133 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: in their plasma problem. HMA was eventually given the go 134 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: ahead to continue operating it with new safeguards in place. Thankfully, 135 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: the growing panic over HIV and the news of what 136 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: had happened to the long staffs in the UK prompted 137 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: some re examination and even though they were allowed to 138 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: continue in like eighty four or eighty five doing this 139 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: this plasma do Nation program, in the summer of nineteen 140 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: eighty six, a hero emerged and unfortunately in this case, 141 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: the hero is an insurance company, but like HMA's insurance company, 142 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: after they after they looked into the evidence, was like, oh, 143 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: absolutely not, no, you people are going to get us fucked, 144 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: Like you're so reckless, we're dropping your asses right. This 145 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: meant that the Arkansaw prison plasma donation program was again 146 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: forced to shut down, and this is going to lead 147 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: to some of the most i mean, less irresponsible actions 148 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: than we've had so far. So one of the things 149 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: that happens once HMA gets shut down by their insurer, 150 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: the prison board, in which the guy we heard from 151 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: last episode, Clinton Aide Bobby Roberts, is a member of 152 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: the board. They actually they're like, they they met, come 153 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: to the conclusion that, like that state police investigation might 154 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: have been shit, and they hire an outside organization to 155 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: do a better version of the internal investigation into what 156 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: had happened. Now, the group they picked was the Institute 157 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: for Law and Policy Planning from Berkeley, California, which is 158 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: a lot better than having the state police do it. 159 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: But the subject of the investigation wasn't the plasma donation 160 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: program itself. It was just the behavior of HMA. So 161 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: part of what they're doing here is good that we 162 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: get this info, but part of what they're doing is like, well, 163 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: we don't want to be like shitting on the prison system. 164 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: We want to make this company, who we already can't 165 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: work with anymore, into a scapegoat. 166 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,239 Speaker 2: So they scoped in and you flatterized the WOU. 167 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: Right exactly, Yes, yeah, and this is how the paper concludes. 168 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: HMA originally may have diverted the Department of Correction payments 169 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: to support acquiring plasma centers or to other purposes that 170 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: may well warrant further inquiry. In any event, it was 171 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: early in the five year contract period that HMA established 172 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: a pattern of contract shortfalls and the ADC accepted them 173 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,239 Speaker 1: for HMA. This must all be viewed as profit motivated 174 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: business decision making it best. At worst, it calls for 175 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: further inquiry. So just like so many crimes are going 176 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: on here. Yeah, now, even though it has concluded this again, 177 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: it's just blaming HMA. So the people running the prison 178 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: system still want to make money off of blood. So 179 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: the Arkansas Apartment of Corrections makes a deal with a 180 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: new company, Pine Bluff Biological Products, a for profit business 181 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: and obviously one that's not going to continue the same problems. 182 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: These guys are finally going to be ethical, up. 183 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: Up and up, someone doing blood money the right way. 184 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: Yes, you know, exactly ethical, just like the ethical blood 185 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: diamonds that I wear in my my all diamond chaffon. 186 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: I don't know what a chaffon is, yeah, but you know. 187 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: Yours is diamond encrusted. That's the important part of the story. 188 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: Yes, and they're not blood diamonds, they're blood plasma diamonds, 189 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: which is much more ethical. 190 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: Think about it. That's why I made my money off 191 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: of platelet emerald mind. 192 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly plate Let's make the best emeralds. I assume 193 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: so Roberts, Bobby Roberts would later allege of pine Bluff 194 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: Biological Products getting the new blood contract. Quote, I think 195 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: it was an insider pine Bluff deal. There were those 196 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,479 Speaker 1: were companies set up specifically for doing business with the ADC. Basically, 197 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: people who were running the Department of Corrections went to 198 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: rich you know, entrepreneur friends of theirs and are like, 199 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: here's what you need to do to set up a 200 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: company to like make this work. Right now, I know 201 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: what you're asking now, how much money was in this 202 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: business for the prison system? 203 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: And the answer, wait, wait, let me do it, hey, Robert, 204 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 2: how much money was in this for the prison system? 205 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: The answer is less than you'd think. Here's the Arkansas Times. 206 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: According to Robert's records, PBBP reported collecting an average of 207 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: nine hundred and sixty units of plasma a week in 208 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: fiscal year nineteen eighty six calculated a conserving selling rate 209 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: of fifty dollars a unit. That volume of plasma grows 210 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: to proximately two point five million that year. According to 211 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: pbbp's contract, the ADC was to receive five dollars for 212 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: every unit of plasma collected. So here's how the numbers 213 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: looked in a year when the media and income in 214 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: Arkansas was half of what it is today and when 215 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: the scury contaminated blood products was being felt around the world. 216 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: Of PBBPS two point five million in annual gross sales, 217 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty thousand went to pay inmates their 218 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: seven dollars a unit fees. The State of Arkansas collected 219 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: two hundred and forty nine thousand, six hundred dollars for 220 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: prison operations, and PBBP had gross revenues of almost one 221 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: point nine million. Now that sounds weirdly small for those 222 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: First off, this is not all the money that's coming 223 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: in through the program. But second, what's happening here is 224 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: the state and the prisons are getting, you know, a 225 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: little bit of this money, and most of that prisoner 226 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: money is also going back into the Department of Corrections 227 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: because they're using it to buy things from the prisons. 228 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: Most of the money is going to PBBP. And again, 229 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,119 Speaker 1: this is a company that has been set up specifically 230 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: to interface with the Department of Corrections, generally by people 231 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: who had relationships with people in Arkansas government who were 232 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 1: responsible for making these calls. So they basically created a 233 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: free company to siphon off money from the prisons. Right, 234 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: That's kind of what's happened here. 235 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the question I think all of us hearing 236 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: this or are going to be asking naturally, is this 237 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 2: a cutout? Is this like a proxy to move or 238 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: sluice some money through. 239 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: That There's that's kind of that's an element of what 240 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: is going on. And there's also serious debates as to 241 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: these numbers. This is what the Arkansas Times suggests. There's 242 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: a Sophia Chase where for the William and Mary Business 243 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: Law Review that the value of a unit of blood 244 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: to the prison was about one hundred bucks and the 245 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: prison kept half of that as opposed to like five 246 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: dollars per unit, So they may have it may have 247 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: been a lot more going into the system. The fact 248 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: that the money on this is so unclear in its 249 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 1: precise details. As one of the things that's shady. Yeah, death. Now, 250 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 1: even if let's say it's about two million dollars that 251 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: PBBP is grossing, now that's gross, not yet net. But 252 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: they effectively have almost no costs because they don't build 253 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: their own facilities. They are using a plasma Faresis center 254 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: built into Cummins Prison for free. That's part of the contract. 255 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: The Department of Corrections handles all utilities and all janitorial work, 256 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: and it's also guards who are working reaching out to 257 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,599 Speaker 1: prisoners to get them to sign onto the program and 258 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: busting them to Cummins. And it's still a lot of 259 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: inmates doing the work. So really PBBP is just skimming 260 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: two million dollars out of this program and handing it 261 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: to some people who have connections to folks who are 262 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: close to the ADC. Right, so, as far as I 263 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: can tell, all pp PBBP the company did was sell 264 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: blood without checking to make sure it was safe and 265 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: pocketed the money on paper. They were supposed to assume 266 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: liability for all plasma products produced through this and ensure 267 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: they provided staff to handle the draw and that those 268 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: staff were licensed professionals who would check the product. But 269 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: the ADEC also kept giving them inmates to do blood 270 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: draws and other work that, by the text of the contract, 271 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: professional PBBP employees ought only to have been doing. Roberts 272 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: described the PBBP looking at the inmates as quote, sort 273 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: of as little cows right here the subscription A lot 274 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: that they're like, this is these are yeah, these are 275 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: animals that we are mining for the products of their body. Now, 276 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: by nineteen eighty six, when PBBP starts, we are four 277 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: years past the point where the US has essentially soft 278 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: banned the use of domestic inmate blood. However, it continues 279 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: to be used for export products. Cutter Laboratories, which is 280 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: one of the companies involved in the nuts and bolts 281 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: parts of turning whole blood into like blood products, publishes 282 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: an internal memo around this time that highlights the attitude 283 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: many in the industry had to the idea of excluding 284 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: prison plasma donations. There are no data to support the 285 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: emotional arguments that prison plasma collected from adequately screened prisoners 286 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: is bad. To exclude such plasma from manufacture of our 287 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: coagulation product would only be a soop or a gratuity 288 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: to the gay rights movement, and would presage further pressure 289 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: to exclude plays asma collected from the Mexican border and 290 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: the paid donor. 291 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: To suit one more time. 292 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, to exclude such plasma from manufacture of our 293 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: coagulation product would only be a sopper gratuity to the 294 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: gay rights movement and would presage further pressure to exclude 295 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: plasma collected from the Mexican border and the paid donor. 296 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yeah, Well, someone make. 297 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: Less money if we have to use blood that isn't 298 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: taken coercively by people who have an incentive to lie 299 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: about whether or not they're sick. And again, when I 300 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: talk about there being a lot more money, like what 301 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: PBP is making is the initial money for selling this plasma, right, 302 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: and both the plasma and the whole blood that's coming 303 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: in through these donation programs are worth a shitload more 304 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: once you spin them out into the different blood factors. Right, 305 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: So this there's a whole higher level of profit that 306 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: these companies like Cutter are making. Right. Likewise, you know, 307 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: the US has said we're not using this stuff domestically 308 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: for medicine, and like it was, our foreign friends in 309 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: the UK and Canada don't allow blood from prison inmates 310 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,479 Speaker 1: to be used in medicine, but a system had been 311 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 1: devised to ensure plausible deniability. The blood that came out 312 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: of Cummins and other donor programs in the US was 313 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: sold to Continental Pharmachrino in Montreal, and this major blood 314 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: broker resells the whole blood in plasma all around the world. 315 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: And it also sells to a Toronto based company, Connet Laboratories, 316 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: who effectively played the role of blood launderer and sent 317 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 1: this tainted blood to the Canadian Red Cross. The laundering 318 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: process was so effective that, as Sophia Chase writes, and 319 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: at least one case, the blood was sent back to 320 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: the United States. So we are also using tainted blood 321 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: in the US from inmates, even though we're not supposed 322 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: to be, because it's being sold to Canada and then 323 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: sold back to US sometimes like. 324 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, excuse me, excuse me, waiter, send this blood back. 325 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: Yes, send this one, but back across the border to 326 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: our good friends. 327 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: Also, blood launderer as a job. 328 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:05,360 Speaker 1: This is blood laundering. 329 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in the wrong business. Yeah. 330 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: Also there's so much money laundering blood. Oh man, do 331 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: you ever think about that? Mm hmm, I do. I 332 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: do you know I have a shitlttle blood in my house. 333 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: I keep People always say that, Yeah, I keep it 334 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: in my basement. I don't know if it needs to 335 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: be refrigerated, but you know, make me an offer, folks, 336 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: if you need a shit little blood, I got it. 337 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: Cool Store is cool blood stored. It's a dark place. 338 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: Cool Cool Zone is getting into the blood business. So 339 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: you're legally not allowed to ask me where it came from. 340 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's illegal for you guys to ask Robert that. 341 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: It's important. It's so important we can't know. 342 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also important to realize that the fewer questions 343 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: you ask, the bigger of a price break you get. 344 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 2: That's right, and that seems to be an unfortunate truth 345 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: as this. We could even call it a sort of 346 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: blood economy. Yeah, begins to arise. 347 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. And speaking of the economy, I 348 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 1: don't know if our sponsors sell blood, but they sell 349 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: other stuff. So go buy it and then give me 350 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: your blood. We're back. So even under PBBP, this new company, 351 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: the same problems persisted. Prisoners continue to be involved in 352 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: running the plasma program. They regularly overbleed each other because 353 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: it means more money for them, and neither the prison 354 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: system nor the company has a financial interest in stopping 355 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: that records are regularly falsified and destroyed. Earlier in these episodes, 356 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: we quoted from Clinton friend and prison board member Bobby 357 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: Bobby Roberts. He's been something of a whistleblower about the program, 358 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: but just to an extent. When the FDA published a 359 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: study alleging that prison plasma was likelier to be tainted 360 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: with blood than plasma donated elsewhere, Roberts told reporters from 361 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: the Arkansas Times this, I deny the premise. I disagree 362 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: that prison plasma blood was more dangerous than what was 363 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: coming out of the for profit centers. In the free 364 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: world out there, anybody could bleed anybody, and like, but 365 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: the problem isn't everyone has blood. The problem is that 366 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: it's not being checked. And there's a lot of incentives 367 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: to lie when you're sick, when you have no other 368 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: way of making money because you're in prison. 369 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 2: Right, Like, Also, you can't just say I disagree with 370 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 2: the premise. 371 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the FDA. You're not You're Bobby Roberts, 372 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: for one thing. Your name's Bobby Roberts. I I ultimate immediately, 373 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm less likely to take you seriously about medical science. 374 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: Both of your names are the same. 375 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 2: I just I love the idea bob Rob of Bob 376 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: Rob a hot tag base. Yeah, on something where you know, 377 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 2: like this guy might get arrested with a bunch of 378 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 2: guns with the serial numbers filed off, and they're like, hey, 379 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: we got you with a bunch of guns, you know, 380 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: in your Honda Civic and he's like, officer, I disagree 381 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 2: with the press, disagree. 382 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: With the premise. Yeah. That article continues to summarize Roberts's argument. 383 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: Roberts basis is confidence in the state's plasma program, on 384 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: the fact that, unlike downtown plasma centers, the ADC had 385 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: medical records on every inmate who participated. It knew who 386 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: was safe to bleed, he says, and who wasn't. 387 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 2: And we can we take a second to also, come on, man, 388 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: the use of. 389 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: The word bleed like this, Yes, yeah, it was just 390 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: so safe to bleed, right to bleed? Yes, yeah. And 391 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: he's rights as records good and it often knows when 392 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: people have blood born illnesses. The issue is that they 393 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: don't care. Per the paper written by Sophie chase. Multiple 394 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: witnesses to the events claimed that the Plasma center accepted 395 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: some donations from prisoners known to fail the required qualifications. 396 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: A previous inmate, Lewis Sorels, described the conditions at the prison. 397 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: You had prisoners bribing prisoners, prisoners bribing officials, officials offering 398 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: certain deals for them to bleed for extra money or drugs. 399 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: Sorels himself passed away from hepatitis CEE shortly after the interview. 400 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: He became infected with this disease during his time at 401 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: Cummen's Prison, and because of the previous scandals under hm May, 402 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: there are more outside investigations into the plasma program after 403 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: this point. A few years after PBBP takes over, an 404 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: FDA inspector reports them for poor screening procedures and record keeping. 405 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: The prison officials who managed the program for PBBP were 406 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: also accused of using prison guards to recruit inmates. Despite this, 407 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: in an interview with a local reporter, prison medical director 408 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: John Bias, who is like you know, like the medical 409 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: director of the prison right, said this, we planned to 410 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: stick with the plasma program to the last day, to 411 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: the last drop we're able to sell. Wow, Okay, Well, 412 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: why given all of the bad stuff. 413 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: Why it sounds like it sounds like one of those 414 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: things where the public wider audience is somehow different from 415 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: the specific audience this guy is speaking to. Yeah, maybe 416 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 2: he might be given some guarantees. 417 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, folks. Now, in nineteen ninety one, a company 418 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: from New York takes the contract from PBVP and they 419 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: continue to mind prisoners for blood plasma until nineteen ninety four. 420 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: By this point, not only was the HIV crisis more 421 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: fully understood, but the consequences of all those years of 422 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: tainted blood getting shotgunned out onto the world market had 423 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: become undeniable. And this is where we get to the 424 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: body count. Best as we can tell, more than a 425 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: thousand Canadian hemophiliacs were dosed with tainted blood from Cummins 426 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: prison alone. During this timeframe, forty two thousand Canadians were 427 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: infected with hepatitis C and thousands more with HIV through 428 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: tainted plasma, often including plasma imported from Cummins. Current estimates 429 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: expect about seven thousand totals of Canadian citizens from contaminated 430 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: blood sold by the US during this period about two 431 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: nine to elevens A little more and to be. 432 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: Clear, these are all for everyone listening. These are all 433 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 2: innocent people. 434 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: Yes, are easily preventable deaths too, Yes. 435 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 2: Easily preventable deaths. Also, this is medicine that they need. 436 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: To Yes, yes, yes, And the shock woods in Canada, 437 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: Canada takes substantial action here, right, the Canadian Red Cross 438 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: has to declare bankruptcy and is no longer allowed to 439 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: collect blood. As a result of the fallout of this, 440 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: the Canadian government launched a commission in nineteen ninety five 441 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: to trace the blood that had poisoned so many of 442 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: their citizens, which is how we first learned that Canada's 443 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: blood supply had been tainted by blood from sick us 444 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: prison inmates. Right. They trace a lot of it back 445 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: to Cumments Connaught Laboratories, which is the Canadian company that's 446 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: like making the blood product. Was obviously proven negligent in 447 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 1: all this, largely because they had avoided checking any of 448 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: the plasma collection sites themselves and had relied on FDA records, 449 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: which were also deficient. Subsequent investigations showed that it's a 450 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: little bit like if you've heard the story of like 451 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: the Rust shooting, right, where like the first ad assistant 452 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: director was supposed to check the gun to see if 453 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: it was empty. Alongside the armor was also supposed to 454 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: check the gun to see if it was empty, and 455 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: the first ad didn't really do a check because he 456 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: assumed the armorer had done it right and the armor 457 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,239 Speaker 1: had not done it. It's like that, right, like Connaught was, 458 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,239 Speaker 1: just like the FDA's probably got it. We don't need 459 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: to spend any money checking, and like they really did, 460 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: the FDA didn't have it. 461 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: You know. 462 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: Subsequent investigations showed that Arkansas prison blood was a significant 463 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: contributor to Canada's hepse and HIV crisis in this period, 464 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 1: and that both US blood brokers and the FDA failed 465 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: to inform Canadian companies where the blood they were buying 466 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: had come from, and that much of it was being 467 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 1: sent from facilities which had already been linked to tainted 468 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,680 Speaker 1: blood sales. There have been attempts at lawsuits over this, 469 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: but the difficulties of carrying out such a suit cross 470 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: border and mostly style me the efforts of Canadian humophiliacs 471 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: to get justice. As I discussed earlier, a good deal 472 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: of the tainted blood from the US also went to 473 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: Great Britain, where it helped cause what Lord Robert Winston 474 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: described as the worst treatment disaster in the history of 475 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: the NHS. Oh, all thanks to our American our American friends. 476 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: Yeah good, the worst, the young upstarts. Yeah yeah, oh, 477 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: our shitty cousins. Yet the bag once again. 478 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. From that article by Sophia Chase, most of the 479 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: victims believe the blood and clotting factors they were using 480 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: came from British donors. The possibility that the blood might 481 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: have been imported did not even occur to them, much 482 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: less the prospect that it might not meet British health standards. 483 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: The disaster left four six hundred and seventy British hymophiliacs 484 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: infected with hepatitis C, and twelve hundred and forty three 485 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: of those were also infected with HIV. About two thousand 486 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: have died at this point right also, many of them 487 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: spread diseases to partners and children. Will never fully have 488 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: an understanding of the exact cons but at least two 489 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: thousand dead. And again there were, like, you know, investigations 490 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: into this as well. Quote it ultimately determined that a 491 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: a significant burden of responsibility for tainted blood provided at 492 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: British hemotheliacs rests on American suppliers of factor eight concentrate. Now, 493 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: due to the way things were done at the time, 494 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: it was not possible to determine how many of those 495 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: deaths were directly linked to Commons prison. Again, there have 496 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: been changes in how stuff is reported to try and 497 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: make it easier to trace back tainted blood, but that 498 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: didn't exist at the time. We know at least three, right, 499 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: so we know what was happening. It's got to be 500 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: thousands more than that, right, because it's incredibly hard to 501 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: actually trace this right, in part because one of the 502 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: things they found when they realized how many British people 503 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: had gotten HIV and hepatitis and we're dying, they found 504 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: that most of the records for blood transactions to import 505 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: blood into the UK had been shredded in the early 506 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. Surely oop, oops, surely nothing shady their. 507 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: Right, right? You have you ever found yourself in that situation? 508 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, see doodles, Yeah. 509 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 2: Whoops, you just trip with a stack of papers and 510 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: fall towards the shredder. 511 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: I'm always shredding medical documents. That's like eighty percent of 512 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: my day job is shredding medical documents from the UK. 513 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 1: I don't even know what they're about, you know, they 514 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: just sending to me in boxes and I just shred. 515 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: That's how you and I got started before this podcasting. 516 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 2: We would just hang out and throw some stuff into 517 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 2: shredders and. 518 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: You would always say to each other, that's the future 519 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: of media, shredding British medical paperwork. 520 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we were entirely wrong, but we had too 521 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: much blood. 522 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: Back when we had we did have way too much blood. Yeah, 523 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: So it may seem baffling that, like there was not 524 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: more oversight given the way things work with the NA, 525 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: especially at this point worked at the NHS. But blood 526 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: export industry in the UK was considered uniquely favored, right, 527 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: which means there was exempt from some of the same 528 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: oversight because number one, and this is the same in Canada, 529 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: not nearly enough British people are Canadians were donating blood, 530 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: they just didn't have enough. And the US was considered 531 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: the gold standard planet wide for blood distribution because no 532 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: one else could gather and disseminate anywhere. Again, seventy percent 533 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: of the blood products worldwide coming from the US. No 534 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: one else close, So everyone is just like they must 535 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: have this shit figured out right. No, but yeah, But 536 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 1: because our system was the largest by far, everyone relied 537 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: on it and it became the global standard, and other 538 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: national healthcare agencies and companies just sort of assumed that 539 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: US regulators had our shit together because the only other 540 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: option was to not have enough blood. Now that's the 541 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: bulk of this story. But before we close out here, 542 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: I should talk about something. So there is apparently an 543 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: exceptional documentary made about all this, called Factor eight, The 544 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: Arkansas Prison Blood Scandal. It is made by Kelly Dudah, 545 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: a filmmaker and investigative journalist who won a Peabody Award 546 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three for a Japanese documentary about 547 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: the cover up by the government of a HEPC epidemic. 548 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: She spent eight years researching and five years filming this movie, 549 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: which prompted an international response, and even she gets called 550 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: into a criminal trial in Enables for a company accused 551 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: of selling tainted blood products to Italian citizens. It's supposed 552 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: to be excellent. I haven't seen it, and I wanted to. 553 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: It is not available anywhere online that I can find. 554 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: When you look on like reddits and stuff, it will 555 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: be all it's always blamed on the Clintons, right that 556 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: they stop this documentary from getting out. I know that 557 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: Duda has alleged she received like harassment and stuff while 558 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: she was making the documentary that said, when you talk 559 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: about like the bad things the Clintons did, this is 560 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: especially Bill, an incredibly powerful man who was involved in 561 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: a lot of shady stuff. There's also a whole industry 562 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: of right wing content dedicated to like lying about shit, 563 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: including like the Clinton murder list and stuff. It's just nonsense, right, 564 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: So it's difficult to parse a lot of stuff out now. 565 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: There is no doubting that Bill Clinton deserves a massive 566 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: degree of blame for the Arkansas blood scandal because he 567 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: was the governor and because he put people who were 568 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: close to him directly in positions to manage the program. 569 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: No argument period that he does not deserve a meaningful 570 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: amount of blame for this, right, But a lot of 571 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: these other allegations, right, like the fact that are the 572 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: Clintons locking down access? Have they used their influence? It's like, 573 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not a powerful people do that with documentaries. 574 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: But also a lot of the time I'm doing episodes, 575 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: I found out there's a twenty year old documentary about it, 576 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: and I can't find that documentary because it's not on streaming. 577 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: That just happens with media. So is the likeliest thing 578 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: the Clinton's locked, I don't. I have no evidence of that, right, 579 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: I've had this happen to a bunch of documentaries over 580 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: the years that said I would love to see this documentary. 581 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: So if you've got it, hit us up, and I 582 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: don't know, someone put it on fucking streaming. Now. The 583 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: most credible allegations that I've heard when it comes to, like, 584 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: you know, the corruption here, is that money from this 585 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: blood program was used to provide positions to people as 586 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: political favors where they could profit while doing very little. 587 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: And it's certainly true that the state Department of Corrections 588 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: doesn't make a ton from the blood program right. However, 589 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: other people in and around the state government make an 590 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: unknown amount of money acting as Greece around HMA and 591 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: then pbbp's wheels here. One example is Leonard Dunn, that 592 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: is the law or that is the guy who gets 593 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: brought in to run HMA right around the time of 594 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: the first blood scandal. He's a banker. A state police 595 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: investigator wrote that Dunn had advised him quote he was 596 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: host to Governor Clinton as well as a majority of 597 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,239 Speaker 1: state politicians presently in office. Mister Dunn explained that he 598 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: was very fond of politics. Doune added that he was 599 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: the financial portion of the corporation as well as the 600 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: political arm. Despite this, he also claimed he never took 601 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: an active role in the company on a day to 602 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: day basis. 603 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: Okay, man, Oh sure, sure, good story, bro. 604 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: But Donn does handle when HMA loses the contract. Briefly, 605 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: he is the guy negotiating with the Corrections Board so 606 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: that it can keep taking and selling plasma. And since 607 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: his company had just paid out to the FDA for 608 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: letting tainted blood out of the country, you might imagine 609 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: these would be difficult negotiations. But the main result of 610 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: these negotiations was that done in order to get the 611 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: Corrections Board to agree, agreed to bring in an ombudsman 612 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: to act as a compliance coordinator to ensure HMA followed 613 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: the rules going forward. This ombudsman was Richard Mays, a 614 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: Little Rock judge who had been appointed by Governor Clinton. 615 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: His job at HMA was described by the state police 616 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: as a bribe, because again, he's not really doing anything. 617 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: They're just like, yeah, just give another guy who like 618 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: we owe a favor a job and pay him some money. 619 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: He doesn't have to do much. 620 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's make our let's make an official with our 621 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 2: budd Yeah your alms button. 622 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: Yeah right yeah. Now, this specific choice to bring on 623 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 1: Done seems to have been made by the Arkansas Board 624 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: of Corrections Chairman Woodson Rocker Walker, who claimed that he 625 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: discussed it with Governor Clinton, who was so upset that 626 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: he held Walker personally responsible for the next provider chosen, 627 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: and Walker and Clinton jointly suggested Mays. Right, That's that's 628 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: what Walker claims. You know, obviously he's in trouble here. 629 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: So but you know the fact that this guy who 630 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,439 Speaker 1: Clinton appoints as a judge becomes gets this bribe job. 631 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: I don't think Clinton had nothing to do with that. 632 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: The quote from Susie Parker's article hma President Done told 633 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: investigators Dune stated that Walker advised him that Mays was black, 634 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: a plus an assystem where most of the inmates are black, 635 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: had good qualifications, and was an outstanding attorney. According to 636 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: investigators notes. 637 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 2: I like the order of operations, yes, with those commendations, Yeah, 638 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 2: like yes, oh, and third he's he's a good lawyer. Yeah, yeah, 639 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: he's all right at that one. 640 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: But first, yeah, obviously I have I'm not saying he's 641 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: not a good attorney, but he doesn't have qualications qualifications 642 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: to monitor a blood plasma donation program. Yeah. Like, that's 643 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: like saying, you know, this guy's a great helicopter pilot, 644 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: let's put him in charge of making sure all the 645 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: hearts we get put in people are working. It's like, 646 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: you don't know how to do that, Like, yeah, we 647 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 1: didn't have anything. You hadn't seen him on the bird. 648 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: Yeah what I mean, Man, the way this guy flies, 649 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: he could really pick out a good kidney. 650 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: You can just it's something in the eyes. Yeah, it's 651 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 2: a vibe. 652 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: Simply not the same job. There are other allegations of 653 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: kickbacks and bribery at high levels in the system. Mike 654 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: Gouster was a medical practitioner who worked in Cummins Prisoner 655 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: the height of the HMA days, and he later wrote 656 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: a fictionalized novel about his experiences and claimed that he 657 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 1: had to leave the company after an HMA associate demanded 658 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: he gives some of his earnings to him in order 659 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: to keep his job. Quote the way Arkansas works is 660 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: that once you are working within the system, the people 661 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: in charge make it clear that it is a privilege 662 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: to have that state contract. Ultimately you are expected to 663 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: pay for that privilege. This, I know guster continues without 664 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 1: the governor's support and protection, this disease riddled system would 665 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,399 Speaker 1: have been shut down by nineteen eighty two. And again, 666 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: Clinton doesn't make the system this way, but he is 667 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: a guy who continues to work within a system in 668 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: order to get the stuff done that he wants to 669 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: get done right, And the fact that that system existed 670 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,240 Speaker 1: before and after him does not exempt him from responsibility 671 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: for participating it. 672 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 2: Nor exonerate to not quite honest, you know, and I 673 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,879 Speaker 2: love the point that we're bringing up here about how 674 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 2: easy it is to heap a probrium on someone that 675 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 2: you already don't care for, disagree with. But just like, 676 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,720 Speaker 2: just like this soul crushing thing where someone you hate 677 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 2: makes a really good point objectively, you also have to 678 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 2: have that moment where even someone you might like does 679 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 2: really just unclean evil shit for a federal judge to 680 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 2: say there are evil people involved. 681 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: Yes, And it's this the issue of both like it's 682 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: it is important to hold Clinton's that. I mean, he didn't, 683 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: No one held his feat, but it would have been 684 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: important for them to have done this. As a result 685 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: of this, It's also important for it not to be 686 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: what a lot of people try to make it, where 687 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: it's like, well, this is purely a Clinton scandal. Now, 688 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like an Arkansas scandal. It's like 689 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: a blood industry scandal. This is a lot of very 690 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: important and if you're if you're picking out one of 691 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: the threads involved in this scandal, then you're ignoring all 692 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: of the other ones, and you're like it becomes clear, Okay, 693 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: well you hate Governor Clinton, But like if if a 694 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: governor you didn't hate had been doing all of the 695 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: same things, wouldn't given a shit, you know, like, yeah. 696 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 2: You would have been like you know, people like blood. 697 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, these are systemic issues, and we both need to 698 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: blame and punish individual people responsible for them and understand 699 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: how the systemic part plays into it so that we 700 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 1: don't just put like, well, no, I like this governor, 701 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: so I'm just not going to pay attention to what's 702 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: being done in the Arkansas prisons anymore. 703 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: You know, maybe the problem is monetizing everything. 704 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe the problem is monetizing everything. Like those early 705 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 1: reports said, if you make blood donation be entirely driven 706 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: by money, there's a lot of issues you have to 707 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: deal with there. The other issue is like, well, then 708 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: how do we get all the blood we need? Because 709 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: like we don't have enough, there's never enough. How do 710 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: we get the blood we need? 711 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an organ surplus. 712 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,720 Speaker 1: Right, and so there's a degree to which, like, as 713 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: much as we're critiquing parts of this, there are certain 714 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: things I know that we shouldn't have been doing, like 715 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: running a blood program the way they did it come 716 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: its prison. But when it comes to like how do 717 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: we get enough blood? Well, nobody's figured that out yet. 718 00:38:59,600 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. 719 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 2: Nobody's figured that out except for except for Robert Evans, 720 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 2: creator behind the Bastards. Several jars of we'll call it 721 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 2: gender used. 722 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: Used blint invented blood, maybe a little bit of Lamb's 723 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: blood in there. I might have thinned it out with 724 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: some coconut milk. You're good, you're good. 725 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 2: Take it, you're good. No refunds. Also contains x amount 726 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 2: of ethanol. 727 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: Now you know who else doesn't give refunds? 728 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 2: Who's that? 729 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: The sponsors of this podcast. 730 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 3: That we're hoping to keep Roberts. 731 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: Maybe they give refunds. I don't know. I never checked. 732 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: We're back, so a good deal of the information in 733 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: this article comes from a nineteen ninety eight piece published 734 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 1: by Arkansas investigative journalist Susie Parker. She also published an 735 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 1: article on the Whitewater scandal for The New York Times, 736 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 1: which was a big scandal for the Clintons while he 737 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 1: was in office. That is incredibly boring today because political 738 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,240 Speaker 1: scandals have gotten so much worse, Like it's so quaint 739 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,919 Speaker 1: that like, oh man, remember when people were upset about 740 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: these like shady business dealings. The president might be tied 741 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: to good lord, we have. 742 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 2: Made a couple hundred thousand dollars illegally. Yeah, so let's 743 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 2: rebuild those guillotines. 744 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: Anyway, the president said, he's a king. It's just things 745 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: are a lot where I'm not saying Whitewater was okay, 746 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like, things are so much worse now. 747 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: Susie has worked for a number of publications, and she 748 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: has a particular fixation on Arkansas politics and the Clintons. Today, 749 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: she runs a local independent publication called The reckoning and 750 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: she is quite conservative, right, she is a right wing 751 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: at least simply more sympathetic to that. I think she 752 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: does portray Clinton's involvement as like more direct and puppet 753 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: mastery than it was. I think this was something Clinton 754 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: acceded to both because he gained some benefit from, like 755 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 1: you know, giving some of these positions to people close 756 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: to him, and because not messing with this allowed him 757 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 1: to do like a politics was a trade for him, 758 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: right Whereas like the other people running the Board of 759 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: Corrections and running these these were the people who were 760 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: like directly setting up the system like this. Again, I 761 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: think Clinton knew quite a bit of how bad this 762 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: was and made some choices here, but he's not the 763 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,359 Speaker 1: puppet master right now. One of the issues here comes 764 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: that alongside some strong connections which again don't imply that 765 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 1: Clinton operated this program, but do in clay that he 766 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: deserves quite a lot of blame. 767 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 2: Or there's also at least willfully ignorant. 768 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: Yes, there's also some species allegations. For example, Galster that 769 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: former doctor claims that Vince Foster was hired to squash 770 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: the state investigation. Now, this was true, and Vince Foster 771 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: is a very close Clinton associated. If this is true, 772 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 1: that investigation happened and in fact described some of what 773 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: was going on as bribery. And then there's an independent 774 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: review ordered by the prison board which had Clinton allies 775 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: on it. So I don't know. I don't know how 776 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,400 Speaker 1: much I believe that this is like a big deal. 777 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,320 Speaker 1: But the reason this is seen as a smoking gun 778 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: right by some people, is that in July of nineteen 779 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,320 Speaker 1: ninety three, after Governor Clinton became President Clinton, Vince Foster 780 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: shot himself to death in Washington, d C. Foster had 781 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 1: discussed his depression with his sister over some time, and 782 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: he was at that moment in a lot of trouble 783 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: over a totally different controversy with the White House Travel Office. 784 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: And there's no evidence of anything here other than that 785 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: Vince was a serial political operator who was involved in 786 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: some shady shit and got disgraced, and who killed himself 787 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: because he didn't want to live with the after effects, right. 788 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,399 Speaker 1: And you know that also the shit he was in, 789 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: to the extent that it was shady, is very common 790 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: among people who are Arkansas politicos, right. But Vince's death 791 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: has become a cornerstone of some of the more unhinged 792 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: parts of the anti Clinton movement here allegations that like 793 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 1: he was either murdered by the Clintons or that he 794 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: killed himself because of the blood scandal, right, the Clinton's 795 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: had him shot in order to cover this blood scandal up. 796 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 1: And again it wasn't covered up. There's a documentary on it. 797 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 1: People didn't care enough, but it wasn't you know, it 798 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,240 Speaker 1: got out. And the reality is that the blood scandal 799 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: didn't have an impact on Bill and Hillary's lives or 800 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: political careers, not in a real massive way. And I can, 801 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 1: in fact believe that people as connected as they are, 802 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, have contacts in the entertainment industry. But I 803 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: also I just don't see the evidence that this destroyed 804 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: them or that this wasn't that dangerous to them. In fact, 805 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two, Peter Longstaff, who tested positive for HIV. 806 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen ninety five after receiving blood from US donors, 807 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: tested positive for hepatitis C. And this was the same 808 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: year that Clinton ran for presidential election. The Arkansas Times 809 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: writs quote his former chief of staff, Betsy Wright, sent 810 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: a memo titled prison Positives. That memo mentioned four points, 811 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: including education into prison by Bill Clinton. But the first 812 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,720 Speaker 1: point right listed was run cheapest system in the country, 813 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: And so you kind of get even in ninety two, 814 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: you know, the thing that, like the scandal here is 815 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: not on their front burner. Their front burner still for 816 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: him in ninety two, after it's very clear how bad 817 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: a lot of this is was like the prison justin 818 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: was cheap. Let's throw that in a bullet point list. 819 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: You know, you know, it's a thing to run on. 820 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: Right, keeping costs down, keeping costs down. It is the idea. 821 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:26,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, fairly normal evil, fairly normal politics evil as opposed 822 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: to like incredibly shady conspiracy evil. That's my opinion on 823 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 1: the matter. 824 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 2: Well, I hear you there too, because there's there's this 825 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 2: devilishly tempting draw right to find a political force you 826 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 2: disagree with or you already don't care for, and then 827 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 2: assign them super villainous agency where you know the result is, 828 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 2: without being too godtroversial, the result is you ultimately have 829 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 2: to ask yourself, is there any such thing as a 830 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 2: completely clean potus? Right? 831 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: And what do we need to play that game? 832 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah? 833 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, and also just like perhaps if we keep 834 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: if the focus of all of these problems is like 835 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 1: this is I could use this huge systemic issue that 836 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people deserve to go down for to 837 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,360 Speaker 1: attack this one guy. That's all I'm really interested in. 838 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: I'm not interested in better treatment for prisoners. I'm not 839 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,760 Speaker 1: interested in a safer blood treatment system. Right and likewise, 840 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: if you're you know, and to the same extent that, 841 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: like Bill's only interest in what happened in the prison 842 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,919 Speaker 1: system during his time was I need a bullet point 843 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: of things that I can run on, right, and like, yeah, 844 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: I put some educational programs in system. Was the cheapest 845 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: you know that it's ever been. Bada bing bada boom. 846 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: I'm done thinking about the prisons and the state I run, 847 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: you know, Like all of these are parts of the 848 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: the why all of this kind of shit will keep happening. 849 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 2: Yes, and that is I think one of our Look, 850 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,399 Speaker 2: I know it's your show, but I think that's one 851 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,160 Speaker 2: of the key takeaways. Is it is it is tempting 852 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 2: again to look at the headline to put a face 853 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:16,479 Speaker 2: on a problem. Right now, I'm mad insert individual here. 854 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 2: The real problems are systemic and have always been and 855 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 2: shall always be slow be so, and with that, I 856 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 2: gotta tell you. It's a question that's been on my 857 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,239 Speaker 2: mind for both of these episodes. Robert, do you want 858 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 2: to do you want to like buy some blood? 859 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: Yes? Oh my god, yes, do you I gotta. I 860 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,800 Speaker 1: want to make sure. Will I have any idea where 861 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: the blood comes from or what is in it? 862 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,960 Speaker 2: Even better, Broke, you're not buying it. We do a 863 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 2: subscription service. 864 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,240 Speaker 1: Oh shit, awesome. 865 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 2: You know you're well. We say leasing. 866 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'll lease the blood. I'll give some back. 867 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, we. 868 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: Gotta have blood. Leasing has to be on the organ. Lease. 869 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: I mean, we're all going to be doing our best 870 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: for the next several decades to like recreate some of 871 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 1: like the silliest movies from the nineteen nineties. I think 872 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,080 Speaker 1: Repo Man's next. 873 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. You have to You 874 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 2: have to come back on stuff they want you or 875 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 2: you've never been on that one. Come back on ridiculous 876 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 2: history while we can still call it history, right. 877 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:28,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 878 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 3: Feel like the Rent of Blood is just like a 879 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 3: sequel to Jordan Peele's Get Out. 880 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, Jordan got us again. Yeah, Oh my gosh. 881 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: Anyway, rent some Blood. Have fun. I don't know why 882 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: I ended on that mark. Well, what do you? I 883 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,680 Speaker 1: mean you kind of a yeah, you can do it. 884 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,680 Speaker 2: Some plugs please, oh oh sure. Other than rent of Blood, 885 00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 2: which is clearly our main focus for both of these episodes, 886 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,879 Speaker 2: please check out stuff they'll want you to know which 887 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 2: applies critical thinking to allegations of conspiracy. Please check out 888 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 2: Ridiculous History, where you can hear our own friend, Robert 889 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 2: Evans Robert Pause Evans like that. Just check it. The 890 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,280 Speaker 2: social security number on the on the show a couple 891 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:27,880 Speaker 2: of times. Most importantly, most importantly, I think you guys 892 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 2: plug something. I'm just throwing the ball over the court here, 893 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 2: just doing like a halftime go for it, you know 894 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 2: what I mean? 895 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, half court. Find the documentary Factor eight so I 896 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,839 Speaker 1: can watch it. That's what I'm gonna plug. Somebody's got 897 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 1: to have it out there. 898 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,160 Speaker 2: Shout out to Kelly Duda by the way for standing 899 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,800 Speaker 2: tull in Italian court. That's a true story. 900 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: Good work anyway. That's the episode. 901 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,360 Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production a cool Zone Media 902 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 3: from or from Cool Zone Media. Visit our website Coolzonemedia 903 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,399 Speaker 3: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app. 904 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the 905 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 3: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday 906 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 3: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash 907 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 3: at Behind the Bastards