WEBVTT - A Conversation About A Slight Change of Plans 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:20.716 Pushkin. Hey, Slight Changers. We're back at the end of 0:00:20.716 --> 0:00:23.436 this month with season four of A Slight Change of Plans. 0:00:24.156 --> 0:00:26.876 In the meantime, I wanted to share a very special 0:00:26.876 --> 0:00:29.956 conversation I had with my friend Max Lynsky for his 0:00:30.036 --> 0:00:35.156 podcast Long Form. The show typically features conversations with nonfiction writers, 0:00:35.196 --> 0:00:39.356 reporters and journalists about how they tell stories, but Max 0:00:39.436 --> 0:00:42.036 generously invited me on to talk about my life story 0:00:42.116 --> 0:00:45.436 and my inspiration for A Slight Change of Plans. Our 0:00:45.436 --> 0:00:47.676 conversation gave me the chance to take a step back 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:49.716 and reflect on how we make A Slight Change of 0:00:49.716 --> 0:00:52.636 Plans and the important role all of you listeners have 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:55.676 played in making it into what it is today. So 0:00:55.756 --> 0:01:08.796 thanks and I hope you enjoy it. Hello, Welcome to 0:01:08.836 --> 0:01:11.316 the long Podcast. I'm Max Lynsky. I'm here with just 0:01:11.396 --> 0:01:14.156 one co host Evan Ratliffe. How are you, sir? I'm 0:01:14.196 --> 0:01:17.076 doing great, Max. Aaron will be back next week. We 0:01:17.116 --> 0:01:19.116 always miss him. What he's gone. It's been so long 0:01:19.156 --> 0:01:22.756 since I introde with Aaron. I miss him desperately. Well, 0:01:22.836 --> 0:01:24.876 you'll see him again, You'll see him again. But for 0:01:24.956 --> 0:01:27.316 this week, who have we got for us? This week? 0:01:27.356 --> 0:01:30.476 I talked to Maya Shunker, and Maya is the host 0:01:30.516 --> 0:01:33.276 of a podcast. It's called A Slight Change of Plans. 0:01:33.396 --> 0:01:37.076 It launched last year, and every episode Maya talks to someone, 0:01:37.276 --> 0:01:40.436 oftentimes very well known people, sometimes people you have not 0:01:40.596 --> 0:01:43.596 heard of before, but all of them have gone through 0:01:43.916 --> 0:01:48.636 a significant change, something transformative in their lives, and the 0:01:48.636 --> 0:01:50.916 show is about how you navigate those moments, how you 0:01:50.956 --> 0:01:53.476 come out on the other side. And Maya is like 0:01:53.516 --> 0:01:56.796 the perfect person to host it because she has had 0:01:57.076 --> 0:02:03.636 a bunch of really distinct lives, particularly professionally. She was well, 0:02:03.636 --> 0:02:05.156 I don't want to spoil it because we talked about 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:08.196 it at some length, but she has reached the pinnacle 0:02:08.276 --> 0:02:12.956 or almost the pinnacle, of multiple professions and that includes podcasting. 0:02:12.956 --> 0:02:15.436 She launched the show last year. It was named best 0:02:15.436 --> 0:02:18.836 of the Year by Apple, which you know, is for 0:02:18.916 --> 0:02:21.076 me at least like a little annoying. She just starts 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:22.276 doing this and all of a sudden it's the best 0:02:22.276 --> 0:02:25.276 of the year, but deserved. This show is great and 0:02:25.676 --> 0:02:27.316 it was really fun to talk to her. We talked about, 0:02:27.316 --> 0:02:30.436 you know, interviewing and moving into podcasting, and also about 0:02:30.476 --> 0:02:33.356 like whether or not she thinks of herself as a 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:36.796 journalist or a scientist or an entertainer is a really 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:39.836 compelling conversation. She is a one of a kind person, 0:02:40.356 --> 0:02:43.396 absolute one of one. I love it when you interview 0:02:43.516 --> 0:02:45.836 an interviewer, Max. I feel like I learned a lot 0:02:45.916 --> 0:02:49.196 from the Max interviews and interviewer type shows. You know 0:02:49.236 --> 0:02:51.436 that I wanted to do that whole show. I wanted 0:02:51.476 --> 0:02:53.596 to do like a spinoff where I just interviewed interviewers, 0:02:53.756 --> 0:02:55.236 and then I realized, like, that doesn't need to be 0:02:55.236 --> 0:02:57.276 a spinoff. I could just do it on the show. Yeah, 0:02:57.956 --> 0:02:59.796 we'd be annoyed if you did that as a spinoff. 0:03:02.556 --> 0:03:05.076 You know who's not annoying the people at Vox who 0:03:05.076 --> 0:03:07.636 we make this show with. Thanks so much to them 0:03:07.756 --> 0:03:19.436 for their partnership. And now here is Max with Maya Schunker. Hi, Maya, 0:03:19.636 --> 0:03:21.996 Hey Max, it's great to be here. Oh, it's so 0:03:22.036 --> 0:03:26.116 great to have you. Feel like we're overdue, I know. 0:03:26.156 --> 0:03:28.036 I mean, I'm such a fan of long form, so 0:03:28.676 --> 0:03:31.836 I'm I'm a fan girl in a bit mutual fanning 0:03:31.836 --> 0:03:34.396 out because I'm very very excited to have you, Maya. 0:03:34.436 --> 0:03:38.196 I believe that you are unique among our four hundred 0:03:38.196 --> 0:03:40.076 and eighty two guests and that I don't have the 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:42.756 qualifications to be on the show. Is that what you mean. 0:03:42.996 --> 0:03:45.756 I'm not a journal I'm not a writer. In that 0:03:45.956 --> 0:03:48.036 I think this might have been a mistake. No, I 0:03:48.076 --> 0:03:53.156 think that you potentially have lived more lives than anyone 0:03:53.236 --> 0:03:55.996 that we have had on the show. Is always not 0:03:56.036 --> 0:03:58.476 the life that would again qualify me to be on 0:03:58.516 --> 0:04:01.036 the show. It's not lost on the Max. But thank 0:04:01.076 --> 0:04:04.316 you to all the listeners who are sticking around. I 0:04:04.396 --> 0:04:07.156 promise it'll be a fun conversation. Yeah, we'll do our best. 0:04:07.516 --> 0:04:10.716 But when people ask me about you, which they do 0:04:10.836 --> 0:04:15.916 fairly often, my answer is that Maya has lived like 0:04:16.436 --> 0:04:20.036 multiple entire lives that the rest of us would be 0:04:20.156 --> 0:04:23.236 very comfortable, was just like any one of and yet 0:04:23.236 --> 0:04:29.396 somehow you have had these totally totally disparate journeys. And 0:04:29.636 --> 0:04:32.516 I understand that this is a slightly challenging way to 0:04:32.516 --> 0:04:35.116 ask this, But is there a way that you could 0:04:35.116 --> 0:04:39.356 just do like the condensed Maya story for people who 0:04:39.476 --> 0:04:42.476 don't know about these multiple lives. Yes, I'll try to 0:04:42.516 --> 0:04:45.036 do the fast story. Yeah, give me the fast version. 0:04:45.236 --> 0:04:47.796 So as a kid, first of all of you'd ask me, 0:04:48.076 --> 0:04:50.636 will you be a cognitive scientist. One day, I'd be like, no, 0:04:50.676 --> 0:04:52.996 because I don't even know what that is. I was 0:04:53.116 --> 0:04:56.156 a violinist first and foremost. So when I was six 0:04:56.236 --> 0:04:59.396 years old, my mom brought down my grandmother's violin from 0:04:59.396 --> 0:05:00.716 the attic that she had brought with her all the 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:02.996 way from India when she immigrated to this country in 0:05:02.996 --> 0:05:06.156 the seventies. So my grandmother had played Indian classical music 0:05:06.716 --> 0:05:08.676 and my mom had just meant to show me the instrument, 0:05:08.716 --> 0:05:11.436 but I I took to it so quickly, like I 0:05:11.756 --> 0:05:14.556 looked at it and I was fascinated by it, and 0:05:14.796 --> 0:05:17.676 I asked my mom very quickly for a pint sized 0:05:17.876 --> 0:05:20.556 version of my own. So she bought me a quarter 0:05:20.636 --> 0:05:23.836 size instrument. And I was a little kid with big 0:05:23.916 --> 0:05:28.076 dreams very quickly. And so I ended up auditioning for 0:05:28.116 --> 0:05:30.156 the Juilliard School of Music in New York when I 0:05:30.196 --> 0:05:33.636 was nine and was very fortunately accepted. And when I 0:05:33.676 --> 0:05:36.756 was a teenager, it's like Pelman asked me to be 0:05:36.796 --> 0:05:40.196 his private violin student, and so that was a big 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:43.076 deal for I. Mean, these days I feel like people 0:05:43.076 --> 0:05:44.796 are like, who's Pearlman, because you know, we all grew 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:47.156 up with Brittany, But Pearlman is a big deal in 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:50.196 classical music circles. I feel like the long form podcast 0:05:50.236 --> 0:05:53.276 audience is in the Perlman's a big deal camp. Yeah, 0:05:53.316 --> 0:05:54.476 I was just going to say, I think this is 0:05:54.516 --> 0:05:58.276 the right audience for recognizing Perlman. Wait, just so people 0:05:58.316 --> 0:06:02.236 are understanding this, your mom showed you a violin when 0:06:02.236 --> 0:06:06.556 you were six years old. You intuitively and immediately became 0:06:06.596 --> 0:06:10.796 obsessed with the thing, willed your way into Juilliard, and 0:06:10.836 --> 0:06:13.596 then Perlman is like, you're going to be my person 0:06:13.996 --> 0:06:16.556 kind of. I mean, we literally willed our way into Juilliard, 0:06:16.596 --> 0:06:18.716 like into the physical building. So it might be worth 0:06:18.716 --> 0:06:21.876 sharing the story, which is I was obsessed with the violin, 0:06:22.076 --> 0:06:25.316 and my mom notes that while she had to convince 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:27.956 me to do lots of things, practicing the violin was 0:06:27.996 --> 0:06:30.036 just not one of them, which was always kind of 0:06:30.276 --> 0:06:33.116 stunning to her. And so at a certain point she 0:06:33.196 --> 0:06:36.636 realized that she was at the limits of her connections 0:06:36.756 --> 0:06:39.516 in the musical world. Namely, she had none. I mean, 0:06:39.516 --> 0:06:41.876 my dad's a physics professor or my mom was a 0:06:41.876 --> 0:06:43.836 physics major. They're both scientists at heart. They don't have 0:06:43.876 --> 0:06:47.836 any connections into this space. And so she realized, you know, 0:06:47.836 --> 0:06:50.236 I'm not really sure how to connect my kid with 0:06:50.276 --> 0:06:53.476 the opportunities she needs in order to pursue her dreams. 0:06:53.476 --> 0:06:56.716 And so one day we were walking by Juilliard in 0:06:56.756 --> 0:06:59.836 New York and I had my violin with me, and 0:06:59.916 --> 0:07:02.676 she said, why don't we just walk into the building. 0:07:03.396 --> 0:07:05.076 It's like, what do you mean just walk in? She's like, 0:07:05.116 --> 0:07:08.276 what's the worst thing that can happen. I'm like, security guards, 0:07:08.636 --> 0:07:10.796 that's one thing. You know, this was back in the 0:07:10.876 --> 0:07:14.996 day when you could still slide in too large establishments. 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:18.276 So we did. We go into the elevator and my 0:07:18.356 --> 0:07:21.236 mom strikes up a conversation with a student and her 0:07:21.276 --> 0:07:25.916 mom and says, hey, my daughter plays a violin. Would 0:07:25.956 --> 0:07:28.236 you mind introducing us to your teacher when your lessons 0:07:28.236 --> 0:07:32.116 over today? And you know, I'm so embarrassed, like I'm 0:07:32.156 --> 0:07:34.236 like in the corner of the elevator, trying to make 0:07:34.276 --> 0:07:36.996 myself as small as possible. And they said yes. I mean, 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:40.716 it's incredible how kind strangers are when you asked them 0:07:40.716 --> 0:07:43.676 for a favor. And so they introduced me to who 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:46.076 would become my future teacher. I auditioned for him on 0:07:46.076 --> 0:07:48.956 the spot. He accepted me into a summer boot camp 0:07:49.036 --> 0:07:52.636 essentially the summer music program, and skilled me up to 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:55.196 the point where I even had a shot at getting 0:07:55.196 --> 0:07:58.716 into Juilliard. And I'm not being falsely humble like. We 0:07:58.756 --> 0:08:01.796 asked him later about this, and he confirmed to my 0:08:01.876 --> 0:08:03.636 mother that when he first met me, he thought I 0:08:03.636 --> 0:08:06.636 had no shot of getting into Juilliard, but he liked 0:08:06.636 --> 0:08:08.836 my personality and so he wanted to give me a 0:08:08.916 --> 0:08:11.076 chance chance. And then you know, I just worked really 0:08:11.116 --> 0:08:13.276 hard over the summer and then you know, was able 0:08:13.316 --> 0:08:15.676 to pass the audition. And so that was a very 0:08:15.756 --> 0:08:18.436 valuable lesson to me from an early age that sometimes 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:21.116 life doesn't give you the silver platter and you just 0:08:21.196 --> 0:08:24.356 kind of have to create opportunities where they don't exist. Yeah, 0:08:24.396 --> 0:08:25.996 I feel like that's a theme that's going to come 0:08:26.076 --> 0:08:31.116 up again in Like Life Too of Maya and Life three. 0:08:31.196 --> 0:08:35.236 It's all about cold emails. But tell me about what 0:08:35.396 --> 0:08:38.756 happened next. So Perlman takes you in and you are 0:08:38.876 --> 0:08:43.116 on a path to be a concert violinist. That's going 0:08:43.156 --> 0:08:46.676 to be your life. Yeah, one hundred percent. I mean again, 0:08:46.796 --> 0:08:51.116 I definitely had all the imposter feelings for the longest time, 0:08:51.116 --> 0:08:54.676 because when you're in such elite competitive circles, you're just 0:08:54.716 --> 0:08:57.716 not sure you have what it takes. And then, as 0:08:57.756 --> 0:09:00.356 I was saying, when Perlman took me on, I felt, okay, 0:09:00.676 --> 0:09:02.196 let me, let me go for this. And I even 0:09:02.196 --> 0:09:05.836 convinced my Indian parents that a conservatory was maybe in 0:09:05.876 --> 0:09:07.516 the cards for me. They had always been more of 0:09:07.556 --> 0:09:10.996 the you know, hey, we loved liberal arts education, very stable, 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:14.276 maybe don't do this music thing full time. But even 0:09:14.276 --> 0:09:16.916 they were, you know, sold after the Pearlman vote. And 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:20.876 so I just went full, you know, steam ahead. I 0:09:20.916 --> 0:09:23.916 was totally in. And then at a moment that changed 0:09:23.956 --> 0:09:26.516 my life forever, where I was practicing violin early in 0:09:26.556 --> 0:09:29.876 the morning at Pearlman summer camp, I overstretched my finger 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:32.676 on a single note and I heard a popping sound 0:09:32.996 --> 0:09:37.996 and I had torn tendons in my hand and resisted 0:09:38.196 --> 0:09:41.596 reality for a very long time until doctors finally told 0:09:41.596 --> 0:09:44.196 me I could never play the violin again. And so 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:47.476 that was it was a total shock to the system. Yeah, 0:09:47.516 --> 0:09:50.476 that must have been just wild. It's like your whole 0:09:50.516 --> 0:09:54.916 plan gone in a moment and then sort of setting 0:09:54.916 --> 0:09:57.876 in a couple of moments later. Yeah, you know, I 0:09:57.916 --> 0:10:00.636 think it's interesting, Max, because when I look back at it, 0:10:00.396 --> 0:10:04.156 I realized that I expected to grieve the loss of 0:10:04.196 --> 0:10:08.396 the instrument, but I didn't expect to grieve the loss 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:10.996 of me. It was only in that moment when I 0:10:11.036 --> 0:10:14.876 lost the instrument that I realized how tethered my identity 0:10:15.036 --> 0:10:17.676 was to it. And so when it was gone and 0:10:17.716 --> 0:10:20.716 it was no longer a thing I could do, I 0:10:20.796 --> 0:10:23.516 really felt like I didn't know who I was anymore, 0:10:24.316 --> 0:10:27.876 because I defined myself as a violinist for so long, 0:10:27.916 --> 0:10:29.516 even before I was Maya, I feel like I was 0:10:29.516 --> 0:10:32.156 a violinist, and so when it's taken away from you, 0:10:32.156 --> 0:10:34.876 you're kind of like, what the hell? You know, like, 0:10:35.036 --> 0:10:37.236 what do I do? What is my purpose in meaning 0:10:37.236 --> 0:10:39.636 and value in this world? You know? I was sad, 0:10:39.836 --> 0:10:42.116 but then I was also discouraged because I didn't know 0:10:43.396 --> 0:10:46.756 if I could find something again that filled me with 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:48.556 the same kind of passion and love and I and 0:10:48.596 --> 0:10:51.076 I recognized that it was such a gift. I was 0:10:51.116 --> 0:10:54.116 given to love something so much as a kid, you know, 0:10:54.156 --> 0:10:55.676 I was given that gift, and then when I was 0:10:55.676 --> 0:10:57.836 taken away, I was just heartbroken. It is the easiest 0:10:57.836 --> 0:11:00.516 way of putting it. I had never been through something 0:11:00.556 --> 0:11:04.716 like that, but I can imagine how devastating that moment 0:11:04.836 --> 0:11:09.356 is and how confusing it is in terms of identity 0:11:09.716 --> 0:11:11.556 and trying to figure out who you are. And I 0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:13.716 feel like there's all these stories out in the world 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:17.156 of people having experiences like this, Like I think about 0:11:17.156 --> 0:11:22.036 like athletes blowing out their knee and their professional careers 0:11:22.076 --> 0:11:23.396 gone by the way. I like to think that I 0:11:23.476 --> 0:11:26.556 made violent and extreme sport, you know, of having this 0:11:26.676 --> 0:11:28.596 career ending injury. So I just want a little bit 0:11:28.596 --> 0:11:32.316 of street credit the rare catastrophic violin injury. But the 0:11:32.316 --> 0:11:37.596 thing that seems different here is that you figured something 0:11:37.636 --> 0:11:42.596 else out and then ran as hard as fucking possible 0:11:42.956 --> 0:11:47.516 at that. So what is like the next life of Maya? Yeah. 0:11:47.556 --> 0:11:50.076 So there's a psychological term that I've since been acquainted 0:11:50.116 --> 0:11:52.476 with that I didn't know at the time called identity foreclosure, 0:11:52.636 --> 0:11:55.396 and it refers to the idea that we can lock 0:11:55.476 --> 0:11:59.236 ourselves into a self identity early in adolescence, and sometimes 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:02.476 that mentality can persist into adulthood. And I fell prey 0:12:02.516 --> 0:12:05.076 to identity foreclosure, and I think it really held me back. 0:12:05.116 --> 0:12:08.556 I didn't see my identity as malleable, as dynamic, as 0:12:08.556 --> 0:12:11.236 something that could change, and at the time, if I 0:12:11.276 --> 0:12:14.476 had been cultivating that kind of spirit, I would have 0:12:14.556 --> 0:12:18.036 navigated the moment better. But long story short, I was 0:12:18.876 --> 0:12:22.516 in my parents' basement the summer before college started counterfactual World. 0:12:22.556 --> 0:12:24.756 I was supposed to be in China touring with my 0:12:24.836 --> 0:12:29.796 violin classmates, so equally cool summer situation, and I stumbled 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:34.316 upon my sister's course book. It was Stephen Pinker's book 0:12:34.356 --> 0:12:38.996 called The Language Instinct, and it basically articulated the marvelous 0:12:38.996 --> 0:12:42.676 ways in which our mind works and how sophisticated the 0:12:42.756 --> 0:12:45.356 machinery is behind the scenes that's giving rise to our 0:12:45.396 --> 0:12:51.476 ability to comprehend and produce language. And I'd literally never 0:12:51.676 --> 0:12:55.836 once before thought about my language abilities. Just something that 0:12:55.916 --> 0:12:59.916 kind of happened, right, And I remember feeling in awe 0:13:00.676 --> 0:13:02.956 of this organ that we all possess. I was like, 0:13:02.996 --> 0:13:07.716 this is awesome and fascinating and so complicated, and I 0:13:07.796 --> 0:13:10.236 was nerding out. I was like, this is a really 0:13:10.396 --> 0:13:12.916 cool thing that I just never thought about before. And 0:13:12.956 --> 0:13:15.836 so I got my hands on like every book I 0:13:15.876 --> 0:13:19.436 could that summer on cognitive science, which is so foreign. 0:13:19.476 --> 0:13:22.076 I mean, I was going in to college thinking, Okay, 0:13:22.076 --> 0:13:24.156 maybe I could pull off being a history major, like 0:13:24.276 --> 0:13:27.476 don't I don't have any specializations, but my brain really 0:13:27.476 --> 0:13:30.836 lit up when it came to studying COGSI, and so 0:13:31.516 --> 0:13:33.556 I still remember. So this is another like kind of 0:13:33.756 --> 0:13:38.676 Juilliard entrance moment. Basically, I knew that the cognitive science 0:13:38.676 --> 0:13:41.876 program was a competitive one, so as an admission's only program. 0:13:41.916 --> 0:13:43.956 And my imposter syndrome, by the way, at this point 0:13:44.036 --> 0:13:46.876 is through the roof, because I'm thinking, the only reason 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:48.516 I got into Yale in the first place is because 0:13:48.516 --> 0:13:50.796 I had these violent credentials, and I don't have them anymore, 0:13:50.876 --> 0:13:53.196 so I don't even know why I'm here. And I 0:13:53.316 --> 0:13:57.036 heard during a pre orientation program that this professor, Laurie 0:13:57.076 --> 0:14:01.076 Santos was running a monkey lab, a non human primate 0:14:01.116 --> 0:14:04.036 cognition lab, and it was like the coolest thing because 0:14:04.036 --> 0:14:06.716 if you joined this lab, you got to run novel 0:14:06.756 --> 0:14:11.196 experiments and ask all these interesting search questions and study 0:14:11.396 --> 0:14:14.436 cognition through this lens and hang out with monkeys all 0:14:14.476 --> 0:14:16.556 day and hang out with monkeys, which, by the way, 0:14:16.636 --> 0:14:18.716 later proved terrifying. So I'm not really sure what I 0:14:18.756 --> 0:14:21.076 was thinking, but I show up to the class on 0:14:21.156 --> 0:14:23.916 day one. It's the day where we just learn about it, 0:14:23.956 --> 0:14:26.636 and then there's the admissions process after that, and the 0:14:26.716 --> 0:14:30.756 room is overflowing Max. There's like fifty people for whatever 0:14:30.796 --> 0:14:34.876 five spots, and it's overflowing with upperclassman. I'm the lowly freshman. 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:38.796 I'm thinking, oh crap, like there's no shot I have 0:14:38.916 --> 0:14:42.636 at this. But thankfully for me, there is an application form, 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:46.396 and I'm like, I'm going to crush this application form. 0:14:46.596 --> 0:14:49.556 Laurie Santos is never going to see a better application 0:14:49.556 --> 0:14:51.476 form than this. And by the way, no one's taking 0:14:51.476 --> 0:14:54.396 the application for seriously except for seventeen year old Baya, 0:14:54.796 --> 0:14:57.796 viewing it like an elevator at Julie. Yeah, exactly. And 0:14:57.836 --> 0:15:01.396 I was like, Laurie, I will take the six thirty 0:15:01.436 --> 0:15:04.956 am Saturday morning shifts in New Haven. I was selling 0:15:04.956 --> 0:15:06.636 my soul on this application. I was like, you can 0:15:06.676 --> 0:15:09.476 have any unborn children, like you can have all the 0:15:09.556 --> 0:15:13.676 things that I ever succeed at, like all everything. And 0:15:13.916 --> 0:15:16.036 she took me in. I was the only freshman that 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:19.396 she took into the class that year, and I thought 0:15:19.396 --> 0:15:21.596 it was my bulliance. She later told me that I 0:15:21.636 --> 0:15:23.076 was the only one who was willing to take the 0:15:23.116 --> 0:15:27.716 Saturday morning shifts, So you know, too bad. It wasn't 0:15:27.716 --> 0:15:30.756 actually what I wrote in the application process. But that 0:15:30.836 --> 0:15:33.596 course really changed my life because not only did I 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:36.596 have did I get to enter this life experience of 0:15:36.596 --> 0:15:38.916 what it could be like to be a scientist. I 0:15:38.996 --> 0:15:41.916 now had an inbuilt mentor in Laurie Santos who was 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:44.116 able to kind of coach me through undergrad and get 0:15:44.156 --> 0:15:47.796 me jazzed about studying the mind and getting to ask 0:15:48.396 --> 0:15:50.876 just fascinating research questions, which is something I never thought 0:15:50.876 --> 0:15:54.156 i'd be able to do. So you find another passion. 0:15:54.756 --> 0:15:59.356 You get like seventeen different PhDs, it's actually eighteen. Matt 0:15:59.436 --> 0:16:02.356 travel all around the world. Don't understand eighteen right eighteen, 0:16:03.476 --> 0:16:08.596 You're going to be a professor of cognitive science. You're 0:16:08.636 --> 0:16:11.676 set up, it's all there for you. Yes, and yet 0:16:11.716 --> 0:16:14.476 that's not what happens. Again. Yes, I had my other 0:16:14.676 --> 0:16:17.476 slight change of plans, So I got my one PhD 0:16:17.636 --> 0:16:20.396 for the record, and I was doing my postock at Stanford. 0:16:22.996 --> 0:16:25.316 I was doing my post stock in a neuroscience lab, 0:16:26.276 --> 0:16:28.636 and I had this moment that maybe many people can 0:16:28.636 --> 0:16:31.196 relate to, where you've put a lot of years into 0:16:31.236 --> 0:16:34.236 something and you're kind of fighting reality, which is it's 0:16:34.276 --> 0:16:36.396 not actually good fit for you. So this happened to me. 0:16:36.916 --> 0:16:39.396 I was in the basement of this fMRI laboratory and 0:16:39.436 --> 0:16:42.236 it was my like sixth hour scanning brains in a 0:16:42.236 --> 0:16:47.356 windowless lab, and this guy comes in and within moments 0:16:47.396 --> 0:16:51.676 I'm peering at his amygdala. And I didn't know anything 0:16:51.716 --> 0:16:54.996 about the dude. I didn't know what his favorite books were, 0:16:55.236 --> 0:16:58.276 or if you at kids, or what his favorite ice 0:16:58.316 --> 0:17:00.916 cream flavor was. And I just felt like, given my personality, 0:17:01.636 --> 0:17:04.676 the order of operations was just totally off, and I 0:17:04.756 --> 0:17:09.596 just wanted a personal connection before I before I did 0:17:09.596 --> 0:17:13.676 brain scans, basically. And so I'm having this realization and 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:15.956 it's definitely an oh shit moment, because again I've just 0:17:15.996 --> 0:17:20.516 spent whatever seven years or something plus undergrad studying cognitive science. 0:17:20.556 --> 0:17:22.956 And so I leave the lad that day and I 0:17:22.996 --> 0:17:26.196 call Laurie and I'm like, hey, girl, you know that 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:28.476 thing you've been helping me do for a long time 0:17:28.516 --> 0:17:31.076 and you invested a ton of resources into I don't 0:17:31.076 --> 0:17:33.276 want to do that anymore. I'm really sorry, but thanks 0:17:33.316 --> 0:17:35.756 so much for everything. I think I want to become 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:39.676 a general management consultant and Laurie is just like, oh 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:42.156 my god, I put too much into your kid for 0:17:42.236 --> 0:17:45.116 you to leave. And at this point, you know, let's 0:17:45.156 --> 0:17:47.596 just like a deep breath, let's have a quick conversation 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:50.036 about what your options are before you go on the 0:17:50.076 --> 0:17:54.716 general management consulting interview circuit, which is very much in 0:17:54.756 --> 0:17:57.556 the cards. And then it was just fortuitous Max, because 0:17:57.596 --> 0:18:00.796 she'd just been to a conference where she heard about 0:18:00.796 --> 0:18:03.276 how the federal government at the time, so this was 0:18:03.316 --> 0:18:06.396 the Obama administration. She tells me about how they were 0:18:06.476 --> 0:18:10.276 using insights from my field, from behaviorali from cognitive science 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:13.156 to get low income kids access to school lunch. And 0:18:13.236 --> 0:18:15.036 I was just blown away by this example. It's a 0:18:15.076 --> 0:18:18.036 really simple story. And the government offers of free or 0:18:18.036 --> 0:18:21.516 reduced price lunch program for low income kids, and despite 0:18:21.516 --> 0:18:23.876 the fact they offered it to millions of kids, millions 0:18:23.916 --> 0:18:26.356 of kids were still going hungry every day because they 0:18:26.356 --> 0:18:28.716 weren't enrolled in the program. And when they did a 0:18:28.756 --> 0:18:32.476 behavioral audit of the program, they realized that there were 0:18:32.516 --> 0:18:34.996 some barriers to entry. The first was that it was 0:18:34.996 --> 0:18:39.196 an extremely complicated application form. Think about a single mom 0:18:39.196 --> 0:18:41.556 who's working three shifts to make ends meet, and we're 0:18:41.596 --> 0:18:44.476 asking her to fill out like a fifty page application 0:18:44.556 --> 0:18:49.356 form that requires referencing a bunch of tax documents and oh, 0:18:49.396 --> 0:18:50.916 by the way, if you make a mistake, there's going 0:18:50.996 --> 0:18:53.316 to be a financial penalty, and oh, you have to 0:18:53.316 --> 0:18:55.836 get to the post office on this specific day and 0:18:55.836 --> 0:18:57.636 make sure you have stamps and all. Like, it's just 0:18:58.036 --> 0:19:00.676 it's too much to ask. It's one of those things 0:19:00.716 --> 0:19:04.236 that feels like totally insane that that's how it works, 0:19:04.516 --> 0:19:08.756 and also impossible to ever change. Yeah, no, exactly. And 0:19:08.796 --> 0:19:11.196 then there's a second barrier which was deeper than that, 0:19:11.276 --> 0:19:14.636 which was that there was a stigma associated with signing 0:19:14.636 --> 0:19:17.796 your kid up for a benefits program. And ultimately what 0:19:17.836 --> 0:19:20.036 they did is they used an insight from behavioral economics, 0:19:20.036 --> 0:19:22.916 which is the power of the default, and they changed 0:19:22.956 --> 0:19:25.996 the program from an opt in program to an opt 0:19:25.996 --> 0:19:29.396 out program. So they used administrative data they already had 0:19:29.396 --> 0:19:33.276 collected on these kids and automatically enrolled all eligible kids 0:19:33.276 --> 0:19:35.716 into the program. And so now parents only had to 0:19:35.716 --> 0:19:38.516 take an affirmative step that they wanted to actively unenroll 0:19:38.596 --> 0:19:41.276 their kids from the program. And Laurie was telling me 0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:43.996 that as a result of this program change, twelve and 0:19:44.036 --> 0:19:46.636 a half million more kids were now eating lunch at 0:19:46.676 --> 0:19:50.036 school every day, and I was like, holy crap, that 0:19:50.236 --> 0:19:54.156 is unreal. And by the way, compare that to the 0:19:54.196 --> 0:19:56.516 extreme lack of impact I was having as opposed to 0:19:56.516 --> 0:20:00.116 talk publishing nothing of significance or importance. And so I 0:20:00.196 --> 0:20:03.316 remember thinking, that's the thing I want to be doing. 0:20:03.556 --> 0:20:05.756 That's incredible, And I didn't even realize it was a 0:20:05.836 --> 0:20:09.116 thing that you could be a practitioner of this field. 0:20:08.716 --> 0:20:12.196 And the challenge max was that there was no job 0:20:12.276 --> 0:20:14.956 that existed that I could apply for. So I talked 0:20:14.956 --> 0:20:16.356 to Laurie's like, I want to do that thing, but 0:20:16.396 --> 0:20:18.436 I know that thing doesn't exist yet, so like, what 0:20:18.476 --> 0:20:20.036 how do we make this work? And she said, well, 0:20:20.116 --> 0:20:22.716 let me give you the email address of the guy 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:25.076 whose presentation I saw at this conference. His name is 0:20:25.116 --> 0:20:27.436 Cass Sunstein, author of the book Nudge, which was a 0:20:27.476 --> 0:20:30.196 seminal piece of work that really defined, you know, the 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:34.196 application of behavioral science to public policy. And you know, 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:36.036 I sent him an email and I used Laurie's name 0:20:36.036 --> 0:20:38.796 in the subject line. I was like, recommendation from Laurie Santos, 0:20:38.836 --> 0:20:42.116 because like, I just needed some name recognition. And I 0:20:42.196 --> 0:20:46.476 looked back at the email, and it is seeping withinsecurity. 0:20:46.516 --> 0:20:49.476 I mean it's actually hilarious, not quite in these words, 0:20:49.516 --> 0:20:51.596 but it was essentially like, Hi, I'm Maya. I have 0:20:51.636 --> 0:20:55.076 no public policy experience, and I've published nothing of significance, 0:20:55.596 --> 0:20:57.556 but I would really love to work at the intersection 0:20:57.596 --> 0:21:01.476 of behavioral science and policy. And I said in parentheses, 0:21:02.276 --> 0:21:04.236 I know I'm not cool enough to work with the 0:21:04.316 --> 0:21:07.516 likes of Obama, but if there is an opportunity in 0:21:07.596 --> 0:21:11.236 state or local government, I would love to take advantage 0:21:11.276 --> 0:21:15.116 of that. And fortunately for me, probably in part because 0:21:15.156 --> 0:21:18.956 cass Unstein is married to Samantha Power and understands that 0:21:18.996 --> 0:21:22.156