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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Slight Changers. We're back at the end of

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Speaker 1: this month with season four of A Slight Change of Plans.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, I wanted to share a very special

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Speaker 1: conversation I had with my friend Max Lynsky for his

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Speaker 1: podcast Long Form. The show typically features conversations with nonfiction writers,

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Speaker 1: reporters and journalists about how they tell stories, but Max

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Speaker 1: generously invited me on to talk about my life story

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Speaker 1: and my inspiration for A Slight Change of Plans. Our

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Speaker 1: conversation gave me the chance to take a step back

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Speaker 1: and reflect on how we make A Slight Change of

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Speaker 1: Plans and the important role all of you listeners have

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Speaker 1: played in making it into what it is today. So

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Speaker 1: thanks and I hope you enjoy it. Hello, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the long Podcast. I'm Max Lynsky. I'm here with just

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Speaker 1: one co host Evan Ratliffe. How are you, sir? I'm

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Speaker 1: doing great, Max. Aaron will be back next week. We

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Speaker 1: always miss him. What he's gone. It's been so long

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Speaker 1: since I introde with Aaron. I miss him desperately. Well,

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Speaker 1: you'll see him again, You'll see him again. But for

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Speaker 1: this week, who have we got for us? This week?

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Speaker 1: I talked to Maya Shunker, and Maya is the host

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Speaker 1: of a podcast. It's called A Slight Change of Plans.

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Speaker 1: It launched last year, and every episode Maya talks to someone,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes very well known people, sometimes people you have not

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Speaker 1: heard of before, but all of them have gone through

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Speaker 1: a significant change, something transformative in their lives, and the

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Speaker 1: show is about how you navigate those moments, how you

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Speaker 1: come out on the other side. And Maya is like

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Speaker 1: the perfect person to host it because she has had

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Speaker 1: a bunch of really distinct lives, particularly professionally. She was well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil it because we talked about

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Speaker 1: it at some length, but she has reached the pinnacle

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Speaker 1: or almost the pinnacle, of multiple professions and that includes podcasting.

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Speaker 1: She launched the show last year. It was named best

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Speaker 1: of the Year by Apple, which you know, is for

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Speaker 1: me at least like a little annoying. She just starts

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Speaker 1: doing this and all of a sudden it's the best

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Speaker 1: of the year, but deserved. This show is great and

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Speaker 1: it was really fun to talk to her. We talked about,

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Speaker 1: you know, interviewing and moving into podcasting, and also about

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Speaker 1: like whether or not she thinks of herself as a

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Speaker 1: journalist or a scientist or an entertainer is a really

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Speaker 1: compelling conversation. She is a one of a kind person,

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Speaker 1: absolute one of one. I love it when you interview

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Speaker 1: an interviewer, Max. I feel like I learned a lot

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Speaker 1: from the Max interviews and interviewer type shows. You know

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to do that whole show. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do like a spinoff where I just interviewed interviewers,

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Speaker 1: and then I realized, like, that doesn't need to be

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Speaker 1: a spinoff. I could just do it on the show. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'd be annoyed if you did that as a spinoff.

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Speaker 1: You know who's not annoying the people at Vox who

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Speaker 1: we make this show with. Thanks so much to them

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Speaker 1: for their partnership. And now here is Max with Maya Schunker. Hi, Maya,

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Speaker 1: Hey Max, it's great to be here. Oh, it's so

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Speaker 1: great to have you. Feel like we're overdue, I know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm such a fan of long form, so

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm a fan girl in a bit mutual fanning

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Speaker 1: out because I'm very very excited to have you, Maya.

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Speaker 1: I believe that you are unique among our four hundred

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Speaker 1: and eighty two guests and that I don't have the

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Speaker 1: qualifications to be on the show. Is that what you mean.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a journal I'm not a writer. In that

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Speaker 1: I think this might have been a mistake. No, I

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Speaker 1: think that you potentially have lived more lives than anyone

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Speaker 1: that we have had on the show. Is always not

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Speaker 1: the life that would again qualify me to be on

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Speaker 1: the show. It's not lost on the Max. But thank

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Speaker 1: you to all the listeners who are sticking around. I

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Speaker 1: promise it'll be a fun conversation. Yeah, we'll do our best.

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Speaker 1: But when people ask me about you, which they do

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Speaker 1: fairly often, my answer is that Maya has lived like

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Speaker 1: multiple entire lives that the rest of us would be

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Speaker 1: very comfortable, was just like any one of and yet

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Speaker 1: somehow you have had these totally totally disparate journeys. And

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Speaker 1: I understand that this is a slightly challenging way to

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Speaker 1: ask this, But is there a way that you could

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Speaker 1: just do like the condensed Maya story for people who

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Speaker 1: don't know about these multiple lives. Yes, I'll try to

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Speaker 1: do the fast story. Yeah, give me the fast version.

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Speaker 1: So as a kid, first of all of you'd ask me,

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Speaker 1: will you be a cognitive scientist. One day, I'd be like, no,

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Speaker 1: because I don't even know what that is. I was

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Speaker 1: a violinist first and foremost. So when I was six

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Speaker 1: years old, my mom brought down my grandmother's violin from

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Speaker 1: the attic that she had brought with her all the

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Speaker 1: way from India when she immigrated to this country in

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Speaker 1: the seventies. So my grandmother had played Indian classical music

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Speaker 1: and my mom had just meant to show me the instrument,

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Speaker 1: but I I took to it so quickly, like I

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Speaker 1: looked at it and I was fascinated by it, and

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Speaker 1: I asked my mom very quickly for a pint sized

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Speaker 1: version of my own. So she bought me a quarter

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Speaker 1: size instrument. And I was a little kid with big

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Speaker 1: dreams very quickly. And so I ended up auditioning for

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Speaker 1: the Juilliard School of Music in New York when I

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Speaker 1: was nine and was very fortunately accepted. And when I

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Speaker 1: was a teenager, it's like Pelman asked me to be

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Speaker 1: his private violin student, and so that was a big

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Speaker 1: deal for I. Mean, these days I feel like people

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Speaker 1: are like, who's Pearlman, because you know, we all grew

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Speaker 1: up with Brittany, But Pearlman is a big deal in

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Speaker 1: classical music circles. I feel like the long form podcast

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Speaker 1: audience is in the Perlman's a big deal camp. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was just going to say, I think this is

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Speaker 1: the right audience for recognizing Perlman. Wait, just so people

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Speaker 1: are understanding this, your mom showed you a violin when

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Speaker 1: you were six years old. You intuitively and immediately became

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Speaker 1: obsessed with the thing, willed your way into Juilliard, and

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Speaker 1: then Perlman is like, you're going to be my person

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Speaker 1: kind of. I mean, we literally willed our way into Juilliard,

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Speaker 1: like into the physical building. So it might be worth

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Speaker 1: sharing the story, which is I was obsessed with the violin,

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Speaker 1: and my mom notes that while she had to convince

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Speaker 1: me to do lots of things, practicing the violin was

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Speaker 1: just not one of them, which was always kind of

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Speaker 1: stunning to her. And so at a certain point she

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Speaker 1: realized that she was at the limits of her connections

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Speaker 1: in the musical world. Namely, she had none. I mean,

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Speaker 1: my dad's a physics professor or my mom was a

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Speaker 1: physics major. They're both scientists at heart. They don't have

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Speaker 1: any connections into this space. And so she realized, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how to connect my kid with

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Speaker 1: the opportunities she needs in order to pursue her dreams.

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Speaker 1: And so one day we were walking by Juilliard in

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Speaker 1: New York and I had my violin with me, and

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Speaker 1: she said, why don't we just walk into the building.

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Speaker 1: It's like, what do you mean just walk in? She's like,

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Speaker 1: what's the worst thing that can happen. I'm like, security guards,

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Speaker 1: that's one thing. You know, this was back in the

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Speaker 1: day when you could still slide in too large establishments.

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Speaker 1: So we did. We go into the elevator and my

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Speaker 1: mom strikes up a conversation with a student and her

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Speaker 1: mom and says, hey, my daughter plays a violin. Would

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Speaker 1: you mind introducing us to your teacher when your lessons

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Speaker 1: over today? And you know, I'm so embarrassed, like I'm

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Speaker 1: like in the corner of the elevator, trying to make

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Speaker 1: myself as small as possible. And they said yes. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's incredible how kind strangers are when you asked them

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Speaker 1: for a favor. And so they introduced me to who

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Speaker 1: would become my future teacher. I auditioned for him on

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Speaker 1: the spot. He accepted me into a summer boot camp

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Speaker 1: essentially the summer music program, and skilled me up to

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Speaker 1: the point where I even had a shot at getting

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Speaker 1: into Juilliard. And I'm not being falsely humble like. We

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Speaker 1: asked him later about this, and he confirmed to my

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Speaker 1: mother that when he first met me, he thought I

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Speaker 1: had no shot of getting into Juilliard, but he liked

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Speaker 1: my personality and so he wanted to give me a

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Speaker 1: chance chance. And then you know, I just worked really

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Speaker 1: hard over the summer and then you know, was able

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Speaker 1: to pass the audition. And so that was a very

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Speaker 1: valuable lesson to me from an early age that sometimes

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Speaker 1: life doesn't give you the silver platter and you just

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Speaker 1: kind of have to create opportunities where they don't exist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's a theme that's going to come

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Speaker 1: up again in Like Life Too of Maya and Life three.

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Speaker 1: It's all about cold emails. But tell me about what

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Speaker 1: happened next. So Perlman takes you in and you are

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Speaker 1: on a path to be a concert violinist. That's going

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Speaker 1: to be your life. Yeah, one hundred percent. I mean again,

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Speaker 1: I definitely had all the imposter feelings for the longest time,

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Speaker 1: because when you're in such elite competitive circles, you're just

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Speaker 1: not sure you have what it takes. And then, as

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Speaker 1: I was saying, when Perlman took me on, I felt, okay,

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Speaker 1: let me, let me go for this. And I even

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Speaker 1: convinced my Indian parents that a conservatory was maybe in

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Speaker 1: the cards for me. They had always been more of

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Speaker 1: the you know, hey, we loved liberal arts education, very stable,

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Speaker 1: maybe don't do this music thing full time. But even

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Speaker 1: they were, you know, sold after the Pearlman vote. And

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Speaker 1: so I just went full, you know, steam ahead. I

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Speaker 1: was totally in. And then at a moment that changed

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Speaker 1: my life forever, where I was practicing violin early in

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Speaker 1: the morning at Pearlman summer camp, I overstretched my finger

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Speaker 1: on a single note and I heard a popping sound

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Speaker 1: and I had torn tendons in my hand and resisted

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Speaker 1: reality for a very long time until doctors finally told

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Speaker 1: me I could never play the violin again. And so

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Speaker 1: that was it was a total shock to the system. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that must have been just wild. It's like your whole

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Speaker 1: plan gone in a moment and then sort of setting

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Speaker 1: in a couple of moments later. Yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think it's interesting, Max, because when I look back at it,

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Speaker 1: I realized that I expected to grieve the loss of

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Speaker 1: the instrument, but I didn't expect to grieve the loss

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Speaker 1: of me. It was only in that moment when I

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Speaker 1: lost the instrument that I realized how tethered my identity

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Speaker 1: was to it. And so when it was gone and

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Speaker 1: it was no longer a thing I could do, I

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Speaker 1: really felt like I didn't know who I was anymore,

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Speaker 1: because I defined myself as a violinist for so long,

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Speaker 1: even before I was Maya, I feel like I was

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Speaker 1: a violinist, and so when it's taken away from you,

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Speaker 1: you're kind of like, what the hell? You know, like,

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Speaker 1: what do I do? What is my purpose in meaning

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Speaker 1: and value in this world? You know? I was sad,

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Speaker 1: but then I was also discouraged because I didn't know

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Speaker 1: if I could find something again that filled me with

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Speaker 1: the same kind of passion and love and I and

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Speaker 1: I recognized that it was such a gift. I was

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Speaker 1: given to love something so much as a kid, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was given that gift, and then when I was

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Speaker 1: taken away, I was just heartbroken. It is the easiest

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Speaker 1: way of putting it. I had never been through something

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Speaker 1: like that, but I can imagine how devastating that moment

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Speaker 1: is and how confusing it is in terms of identity

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out who you are. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's all these stories out in the world

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Speaker 1: of people having experiences like this, Like I think about

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Speaker 1: like athletes blowing out their knee and their professional careers

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Speaker 1: gone by the way. I like to think that I

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Speaker 1: made violent and extreme sport, you know, of having this

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Speaker 1: career ending injury. So I just want a little bit

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Speaker 1: of street credit the rare catastrophic violin injury. But the

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Speaker 1: thing that seems different here is that you figured something

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Speaker 1: else out and then ran as hard as fucking possible

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Speaker 1: at that. So what is like the next life of Maya? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So there's a psychological term that I've since been acquainted

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Speaker 1: with that I didn't know at the time called identity foreclosure,

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Speaker 1: and it refers to the idea that we can lock

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Speaker 1: ourselves into a self identity early in adolescence, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: that mentality can persist into adulthood. And I fell prey

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Speaker 1: to identity foreclosure, and I think it really held me back.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see my identity as malleable, as dynamic, as

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Speaker 1: something that could change, and at the time, if I

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Speaker 1: had been cultivating that kind of spirit, I would have

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Speaker 1: navigated the moment better. But long story short, I was

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Speaker 1: in my parents' basement the summer before college started counterfactual World.

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Speaker 1: I was supposed to be in China touring with my

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Speaker 1: violin classmates, so equally cool summer situation, and I stumbled

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Speaker 1: upon my sister's course book. It was Stephen Pinker's book

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Speaker 1: called The Language Instinct, and it basically articulated the marvelous

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Speaker 1: ways in which our mind works and how sophisticated the

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Speaker 1: machinery is behind the scenes that's giving rise to our

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Speaker 1: ability to comprehend and produce language. And I'd literally never

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Speaker 1: once before thought about my language abilities. Just something that

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Speaker 1: kind of happened, right, And I remember feeling in awe

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Speaker 1: of this organ that we all possess. I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is awesome and fascinating and so complicated, and I

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Speaker 1: was nerding out. I was like, this is a really

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Speaker 1: cool thing that I just never thought about before. And

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Speaker 1: so I got my hands on like every book I

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Speaker 1: could that summer on cognitive science, which is so foreign.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was going in to college thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe I could pull off being a history major, like

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Speaker 1: don't I don't have any specializations, but my brain really

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Speaker 1: lit up when it came to studying COGSI, and so

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Speaker 1: I still remember. So this is another like kind of

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Speaker 1: Juilliard entrance moment. Basically, I knew that the cognitive science

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Speaker 1: program was a competitive one, so as an admission's only program.

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Speaker 1: And my imposter syndrome, by the way, at this point

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Speaker 1: is through the roof, because I'm thinking, the only reason

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Speaker 1: I got into Yale in the first place is because

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Speaker 1: I had these violent credentials, and I don't have them anymore,

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Speaker 1: so I don't even know why I'm here. And I

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Speaker 1: heard during a pre orientation program that this professor, Laurie

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Speaker 1: Santos was running a monkey lab, a non human primate

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Speaker 1: cognition lab, and it was like the coolest thing because

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Speaker 1: if you joined this lab, you got to run novel

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Speaker 1: experiments and ask all these interesting search questions and study

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Speaker 1: cognition through this lens and hang out with monkeys all

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Speaker 1: day and hang out with monkeys, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: later proved terrifying. So I'm not really sure what I

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Speaker 1: was thinking, but I show up to the class on

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Speaker 1: day one. It's the day where we just learn about it,

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Speaker 1: and then there's the admissions process after that, and the

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Speaker 1: room is overflowing Max. There's like fifty people for whatever

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Speaker 1: five spots, and it's overflowing with upperclassman. I'm the lowly freshman.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, oh crap, like there's no shot I have

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Speaker 1: at this. But thankfully for me, there is an application form,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm going to crush this application form.

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Speaker 1: Laurie Santos is never going to see a better application

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Speaker 1: form than this. And by the way, no one's taking

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Speaker 1: the application for seriously except for seventeen year old Baya,

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Speaker 1: viewing it like an elevator at Julie. Yeah, exactly. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, Laurie, I will take the six thirty

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Speaker 1: am Saturday morning shifts in New Haven. I was selling

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Speaker 1: my soul on this application. I was like, you can

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Speaker 1: have any unborn children, like you can have all the

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Speaker 1: things that I ever succeed at, like all everything. And

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Speaker 1: she took me in. I was the only freshman that

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Speaker 1: she took into the class that year, and I thought

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Speaker 1: it was my bulliance. She later told me that I

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Speaker 1: was the only one who was willing to take the

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Speaker 1: Saturday morning shifts, So you know, too bad. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: actually what I wrote in the application process. But that

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Speaker 1: course really changed my life because not only did I

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Speaker 1: have did I get to enter this life experience of

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Speaker 1: what it could be like to be a scientist. I

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Speaker 1: now had an inbuilt mentor in Laurie Santos who was

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Speaker 1: able to kind of coach me through undergrad and get

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Speaker 1: me jazzed about studying the mind and getting to ask

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Speaker 1: just fascinating research questions, which is something I never thought

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Speaker 1: i'd be able to do. So you find another passion.

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Speaker 1: You get like seventeen different PhDs, it's actually eighteen. Matt

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Speaker 1: travel all around the world. Don't understand eighteen right eighteen,

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Speaker 1: You're going to be a professor of cognitive science. You're

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Speaker 1: set up, it's all there for you. Yes, and yet

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Speaker 1: that's not what happens. Again. Yes, I had my other

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Speaker 1: slight change of plans, So I got my one PhD

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Speaker 1: for the record, and I was doing my postock at Stanford.

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Speaker 1: I was doing my post stock in a neuroscience lab,

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Speaker 1: and I had this moment that maybe many people can

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Speaker 1: relate to, where you've put a lot of years into

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Speaker 1: something and you're kind of fighting reality, which is it's

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Speaker 1: not actually good fit for you. So this happened to me.

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Speaker 1: I was in the basement of this fMRI laboratory and

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Speaker 1: it was my like sixth hour scanning brains in a

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Speaker 1: windowless lab, and this guy comes in and within moments

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Speaker 1: I'm peering at his amygdala. And I didn't know anything

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Speaker 1: about the dude. I didn't know what his favorite books were,

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Speaker 1: or if you at kids, or what his favorite ice

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Speaker 1: cream flavor was. And I just felt like, given my personality,

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Speaker 1: the order of operations was just totally off, and I

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Speaker 1: just wanted a personal connection before I before I did

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Speaker 1: brain scans, basically. And so I'm having this realization and

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Speaker 1: it's definitely an oh shit moment, because again I've just

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Speaker 1: spent whatever seven years or something plus undergrad studying cognitive science.

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Speaker 1: And so I leave the lad that day and I

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Speaker 1: call Laurie and I'm like, hey, girl, you know that

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Speaker 1: thing you've been helping me do for a long time

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Speaker 1: and you invested a ton of resources into I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that anymore. I'm really sorry, but thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for everything. I think I want to become

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Speaker 1: a general management consultant and Laurie is just like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, I put too much into your kid for

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Speaker 1: you to leave. And at this point, you know, let's

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Speaker 1: just like a deep breath, let's have a quick conversation

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Speaker 1: about what your options are before you go on the

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Speaker 1: general management consulting interview circuit, which is very much in

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Speaker 1: the cards. And then it was just fortuitous Max, because

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Speaker 1: she'd just been to a conference where she heard about

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Speaker 1: how the federal government at the time, so this was

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Speaker 1: the Obama administration. She tells me about how they were

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Speaker 1: using insights from my field, from behaviorali from cognitive science

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Speaker 1: to get low income kids access to school lunch. And

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Speaker 1: I was just blown away by this example. It's a

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Speaker 1: really simple story. And the government offers of free or

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Speaker 1: reduced price lunch program for low income kids, and despite

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Speaker 1: the fact they offered it to millions of kids, millions

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Speaker 1: of kids were still going hungry every day because they

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Speaker 1: weren't enrolled in the program. And when they did a

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Speaker 1: behavioral audit of the program, they realized that there were

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Speaker 1: some barriers to entry. The first was that it was

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Speaker 1: an extremely complicated application form. Think about a single mom

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Speaker 1: who's working three shifts to make ends meet, and we're

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Speaker 1: asking her to fill out like a fifty page application

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Speaker 1: form that requires referencing a bunch of tax documents and oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, if you make a mistake, there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a financial penalty, and oh, you have to

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Speaker 1: get to the post office on this specific day and

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Speaker 1: make sure you have stamps and all. Like, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's too much to ask. It's one of those things

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Speaker 1: that feels like totally insane that that's how it works,

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Speaker 1: and also impossible to ever change. Yeah, no, exactly. And

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Speaker 1: then there's a second barrier which was deeper than that,

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Speaker 1: which was that there was a stigma associated with signing

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Speaker 1: your kid up for a benefits program. And ultimately what

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Speaker 1: they did is they used an insight from behavioral economics,

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Speaker 1: which is the power of the default, and they changed

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Speaker 1: the program from an opt in program to an opt

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Speaker 1: out program. So they used administrative data they already had

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Speaker 1: collected on these kids and automatically enrolled all eligible kids

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Speaker 1: into the program. And so now parents only had to

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Speaker 1: take an affirmative step that they wanted to actively unenroll

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Speaker 1: their kids from the program. And Laurie was telling me

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Speaker 1: that as a result of this program change, twelve and

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Speaker 1: a half million more kids were now eating lunch at

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Speaker 1: school every day, and I was like, holy crap, that

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Speaker 1: is unreal. And by the way, compare that to the

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Speaker 1: extreme lack of impact I was having as opposed to

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Speaker 1: talk publishing nothing of significance or importance. And so I

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Speaker 1: remember thinking, that's the thing I want to be doing.

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Speaker 1: That's incredible, And I didn't even realize it was a

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Speaker 1: thing that you could be a practitioner of this field.

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Speaker 1: And the challenge max was that there was no job

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Speaker 1: that existed that I could apply for. So I talked

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Speaker 1: to Laurie's like, I want to do that thing, but

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Speaker 1: I know that thing doesn't exist yet, so like, what

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Speaker 1: how do we make this work? And she said, well,

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Speaker 1: let me give you the email address of the guy

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Speaker 1: whose presentation I saw at this conference. His name is

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Speaker 1: Cass Sunstein, author of the book Nudge, which was a

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Speaker 1: seminal piece of work that really defined, you know, the

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Speaker 1: application of behavioral science to public policy. And you know,

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00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:36,036
Speaker 1: I sent him an email and I used Laurie's name

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Speaker 1: in the subject line. I was like, recommendation from Laurie Santos,

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00:20:38,836 --> 00:20:42,116
Speaker 1: because like, I just needed some name recognition. And I

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00:20:42,196 --> 00:20:46,476
Speaker 1: looked back at the email, and it is seeping withinsecurity.

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00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:49,476
Speaker 1: I mean it's actually hilarious, not quite in these words,

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Speaker 1: but it was essentially like, Hi, I'm Maya. I have

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Speaker 1: no public policy experience, and I've published nothing of significance,

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00:20:55,596 --> 00:20:57,556
Speaker 1: but I would really love to work at the intersection

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Speaker 1: of behavioral science and policy. And I said in parentheses,

396
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Speaker 1: I know I'm not cool enough to work with the

397
00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:07,516
Speaker 1: likes of Obama, but if there is an opportunity in

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Speaker 1: state or local government, I would love to take advantage

399
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Speaker 1: of that. And fortunately for me, probably in part because

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00:21:15,156 --> 00:21:18,956
Speaker 1: cass Unstein is married to Samantha Power and understands that

401
00:21:18,996 --> 00:21:22,156
Speaker 1: like women can really thrive in this world, ignored all

402
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Speaker 1: of my insecurities and wrote back an email and said,

403
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Speaker 1: here's contact information for the president's science advisor and his deputy.

404
00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:34,476
Speaker 1: Let them know I passed you along the story. By

405
00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:36,676
Speaker 1: the time, I feel like you've told this story enough

406
00:21:36,716 --> 00:21:39,116
Speaker 1: times that it doesn't seem amazing to you. But this

407
00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:43,116
Speaker 1: story is so incredible, all right, just keep going, No,

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00:21:43,316 --> 00:21:46,476
Speaker 1: thank you, It's funny to go down memory lane with you.

409
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Speaker 1: I was swimming at the y MCA when this email

410
00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:51,116
Speaker 1: came in, and as I was getting on my bike,

411
00:21:51,116 --> 00:21:53,556
Speaker 1: to go home. I opened my phone and saw that

412
00:21:53,676 --> 00:21:56,476
Speaker 1: Cassette responded to me, and I'm like, I nearly fell

413
00:21:56,516 --> 00:21:59,436
Speaker 1: off my bike. I just could not believe again the

414
00:21:59,556 --> 00:22:01,996
Speaker 1: kindness of a stranger. It's like he doesn't know who

415
00:22:01,996 --> 00:22:05,276
Speaker 1: I am. He's responding to my cold email within a

416
00:22:05,316 --> 00:22:07,836
Speaker 1: matter of minutes and is telling me he's happy to

417
00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:11,836
Speaker 1: facilitate a connection to an entire political sphere that I've

418
00:22:11,836 --> 00:22:14,716
Speaker 1: had no interactions with my entire life. And when I

419
00:22:14,716 --> 00:22:17,516
Speaker 1: email the Obama advisors hilariously this time, I put cass

420
00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:21,556
Speaker 1: in the subject line recommendation from cass Sunstein ladder up.

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00:22:21,556 --> 00:22:24,756
Speaker 1: I love it, Ladder it up. So I email the

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00:22:24,836 --> 00:22:28,836
Speaker 1: Deputy Science Advisor and he tells me, again fortuitous, that

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00:22:29,396 --> 00:22:31,716
Speaker 1: it just so happens he's in California this week because

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00:22:31,756 --> 00:22:35,436
Speaker 1: he lives in California, and he loved to have me

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00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:39,476
Speaker 1: interview with him two days later. And I need to

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00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:41,996
Speaker 1: get a business suit, and I also have to prepare

427
00:22:42,476 --> 00:22:45,316
Speaker 1: Max for an interview with a White House official, and

428
00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:49,156
Speaker 1: I have no idea what I'm doing. So my solution

429
00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:52,396
Speaker 1: to that problem was to call everybody smart that I

430
00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:56,676
Speaker 1: know in this world and mine their brains for wisdom.

431
00:22:56,716 --> 00:22:58,716
Speaker 1: I was like, so, hypothetically speaking, if you had an

432
00:22:58,716 --> 00:23:00,876
Speaker 1: interview in two days with a White House official, what

433
00:23:01,036 --> 00:23:04,476
Speaker 1: policy interventions would you want to do at the intersection

434
00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:07,036
Speaker 1: of behavioral science. And so I just start curating all

435
00:23:07,036 --> 00:23:09,476
Speaker 1: these ideas. And also, I mean, it was a really

436
00:23:09,476 --> 00:23:12,076
Speaker 1: fun exercise because I feel like I'd been waxing poetic

437
00:23:12,116 --> 00:23:14,996
Speaker 1: about the virtues of behavioral science for a bit at

438
00:23:14,996 --> 00:23:16,996
Speaker 1: this point, but I never thought any of those dreams

439
00:23:17,036 --> 00:23:18,636
Speaker 1: could come true, and so it was a really fun

440
00:23:18,676 --> 00:23:22,276
Speaker 1: thought experiment. And so I show up at Tom Khalil's house,

441
00:23:22,316 --> 00:23:25,196
Speaker 1: that's his name, and I don't know what to expect

442
00:23:25,236 --> 00:23:28,316
Speaker 1: of this government bureaucrat either, and so I'm like very

443
00:23:28,396 --> 00:23:31,836
Speaker 1: very nervous coming in the door and I enter, and

444
00:23:31,876 --> 00:23:34,356
Speaker 1: I just remember like it was not what I was expecting.

445
00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:37,996
Speaker 1: He was super nice and not at all intimidating, and

446
00:23:38,116 --> 00:23:42,356
Speaker 1: what perceeds is just this wonderful, rich conversation. It felt

447
00:23:42,356 --> 00:23:45,676
Speaker 1: really like a conversation versus an interview about what it

448
00:23:45,676 --> 00:23:48,756
Speaker 1: could be like if the government created this new position

449
00:23:48,796 --> 00:23:51,916
Speaker 1: that I was proposing to them of a behavioral scientist.

450
00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:54,156
Speaker 1: And so my job was just to pitch him. It

451
00:23:54,196 --> 00:23:55,916
Speaker 1: was like, I want you guys to create this position,

452
00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:57,676
Speaker 1: and I want you to hire me into the position

453
00:23:57,756 --> 00:23:59,956
Speaker 1: once you created it. And I remember that there was

454
00:23:59,996 --> 00:24:02,036
Speaker 1: this there was this moment that was really special for

455
00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:06,036
Speaker 1: me where I was talking about the first Ladies Let's

456
00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:09,076
Speaker 1: Move initiative and I was saying how some of the

457
00:24:09,196 --> 00:24:11,476
Speaker 1: language on the website could be improved because it wasn't

458
00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:17,676
Speaker 1: reflecting the best science from behavioral science. And Tom's response was, oh, well,

459
00:24:17,716 --> 00:24:22,756
Speaker 1: I know you know Michelle, Michelle and her chief of staff,

460
00:24:23,036 --> 00:24:26,156
Speaker 1: and we can make that happen. That was incredible, that

461
00:24:26,276 --> 00:24:29,516
Speaker 1: moment where I realized, Wow, all this stuff that's in

462
00:24:29,556 --> 00:24:32,436
Speaker 1: my brain and in all the books can now be

463
00:24:32,476 --> 00:24:36,676
Speaker 1: translated in real life to improve people's lives. And so

464
00:24:36,796 --> 00:24:38,916
Speaker 1: we conclude the conversation, and I remember at the end

465
00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:41,236
Speaker 1: it was like an awkward first date. He was like, so,

466
00:24:41,276 --> 00:24:43,356
Speaker 1: I'd love to keep in touch, and I was like,

467
00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:45,516
Speaker 1: let's unpack that. What kind of keep in touch are

468
00:24:45,556 --> 00:24:47,196
Speaker 1: we talking about? Here? Yeah? What are we talking about?

469
00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:48,676
Speaker 1: We talking about like a don't call me, I'll call

470
00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:51,876
Speaker 1: you situation or is it like i'd love to hire you?

471
00:24:52,156 --> 00:24:53,796
Speaker 1: So I literally, I think in the moment I did

472
00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:55,436
Speaker 1: push him and I was like what does what does

473
00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:58,316
Speaker 1: that mean exactly? Are you blowing me off here exactly?

474
00:24:58,876 --> 00:25:00,636
Speaker 1: And he says, well, there's a couple of things that

475
00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:03,476
Speaker 1: need to happen. One, Obama needs to win his reelection

476
00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:04,836
Speaker 1: in a few weeks, so this was like fall of

477
00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:07,356
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and he said, I also have to like

478
00:25:07,516 --> 00:25:09,956
Speaker 1: convince all the leaders ship at the White House to

479
00:25:09,956 --> 00:25:12,676
Speaker 1: create this new position, right, and I also need to

480
00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:14,876
Speaker 1: make sure that there's a desk available for you. And

481
00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:16,636
Speaker 1: this is where all my West Wing dreams just kind

482
00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:19,196
Speaker 1: of like start dictating, because I realized that, like the

483
00:25:19,196 --> 00:25:21,756
Speaker 1: White House is actually look a very resource constrained environment

484
00:25:21,756 --> 00:25:24,836
Speaker 1: in which practical considerations like is there a desk available?

485
00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:28,116
Speaker 1: It's like a real thing. And so all those things

486
00:25:28,436 --> 00:25:31,556
Speaker 1: ended up happening. But I did do a very bold thing,

487
00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:34,756
Speaker 1: which is I terminated my lease in California and I

488
00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:37,516
Speaker 1: signed a one year lease in DC and sold everything

489
00:25:37,516 --> 00:25:40,356
Speaker 1: other than my bike before having a formal job offer

490
00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:42,236
Speaker 1: from the White House. That is a bold move. I

491
00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:44,236
Speaker 1: was kind of like, I'm showing up, We're going to

492
00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:46,076
Speaker 1: make this happen. Just showed up, knocked on the door

493
00:25:46,116 --> 00:25:48,516
Speaker 1: of the White House. Yeah, and I was like, let

494
00:25:48,516 --> 00:25:50,516
Speaker 1: me in, But I think that really did show a

495
00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:52,836
Speaker 1: commitment to everyone that it was really great if we

496
00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:55,836
Speaker 1: could just get this over the finish line, and it happened. Yeah,

497
00:25:55,876 --> 00:25:57,916
Speaker 1: and we can fast forward a little bit. I mean,

498
00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:01,556
Speaker 1: you created a Department of Behavioral Science, worked in the

499
00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:05,716
Speaker 1: White House for four years, did all kinds of incredible work,

500
00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:09,556
Speaker 1: and to me, I mean, there's so many parallels between

501
00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:13,396
Speaker 1: that and the experience that you had with the violin

502
00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:17,276
Speaker 1: and then Maya. And this is where the story goes

503
00:26:17,356 --> 00:26:24,036
Speaker 1: from incredible for me slightly annoying. You decide to start

504
00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:29,476
Speaker 1: a fucking podcast and then it's Apple's best podcast of

505
00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:32,196
Speaker 1: the year, Like, how do you do that? I think

506
00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:34,436
Speaker 1: it's important to pull the curtain back a little bit.

507
00:26:34,476 --> 00:26:39,236
Speaker 1: Which is the number of times that I've been told

508
00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:43,876
Speaker 1: no and rejected in my career is countless. I mean,

509
00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:45,876
Speaker 1: I was trying to build this team in government, and

510
00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:48,596
Speaker 1: I was knocking on every conceivable door that I could,

511
00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:53,516
Speaker 1: begging my government agency colleagues to work with me because

512
00:26:53,516 --> 00:26:55,596
Speaker 1: I wasn't given a mandate and I had no budget

513
00:26:55,636 --> 00:26:58,516
Speaker 1: to build this team. And I think that a key

514
00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:01,356
Speaker 1: part of my story is you know, you see the numerator,

515
00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:04,196
Speaker 1: you see the successes, but you don't see the denominator.

516
00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:07,196
Speaker 1: You don't see all the times that I was totally

517
00:27:07,196 --> 00:27:08,836
Speaker 1: despondent because I was told I would never be able

518
00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:10,996
Speaker 1: to make it team, or all the times I felt

519
00:27:10,996 --> 00:27:12,836
Speaker 1: hopeless and like there was no chance ahead. So I

520
00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:14,756
Speaker 1: think I just want to start by saying that you

521
00:27:14,796 --> 00:27:18,596
Speaker 1: have to try enough times at something to make things happen.

522
00:27:18,996 --> 00:27:21,516
Speaker 1: And that's kind of always been my philosophy. And do

523
00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:25,556
Speaker 1: you have endurance for that? Like, are you okay hearing no? Yeah?

524
00:27:25,596 --> 00:27:29,076
Speaker 1: So I think I'm comfortable being told no or getting

525
00:27:29,076 --> 00:27:31,836
Speaker 1: those rejections because from the time I was a little

526
00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:36,076
Speaker 1: kid playing the violin, I received so much critical feedback.

527
00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:38,916
Speaker 1: You're not going to survive in that world if you

528
00:27:38,916 --> 00:27:43,836
Speaker 1: don't develop somewhat thick skin, because it's a perfectionist sport, right,

529
00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:47,716
Speaker 1: I mean, you're playing a passage that to any lay

530
00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:50,556
Speaker 1: person would be like, that's great, and then it's being

531
00:27:50,556 --> 00:27:53,116
Speaker 1: picked apart, not just by your teachers and everyone, but

532
00:27:53,116 --> 00:27:55,396
Speaker 1: by yourself. I mean I was always my harshest critic,

533
00:27:56,116 --> 00:27:58,636
Speaker 1: and so I think maybe some of the resilience came

534
00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:02,076
Speaker 1: from those early formative years where I was just used

535
00:28:02,116 --> 00:28:07,876
Speaker 1: to being extremely criticized and extremely critical of myself, and

536
00:28:07,956 --> 00:28:09,796
Speaker 1: I don't know where the right balance, but that was

537
00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:12,476
Speaker 1: just my life. And so that's that's what I've kind

538
00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:15,236
Speaker 1: of used to and I've used it to kind of

539
00:28:15,276 --> 00:28:18,196
Speaker 1: grow and be better. So how does that translate to

540
00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 1: starting a podcast? How do you go from the White

541
00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:27,996
Speaker 1: House and that level of impact to being like, I'm

542
00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:32,796
Speaker 1: gonna talk to people with some microphones. Well, one way

543
00:28:32,836 --> 00:28:34,716
Speaker 1: that that kind of thing can happen is when you

544
00:28:34,756 --> 00:28:37,636
Speaker 1: don't control the result of the twenty sixteen election and

545
00:28:37,676 --> 00:28:40,836
Speaker 1: so the woman you were hoping to work for for

546
00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:43,876
Speaker 1: eight years doesn't get elected. That's one possible way that

547
00:28:44,196 --> 00:28:46,476
Speaker 1: you shift gears in life. But when it came to

548
00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:49,196
Speaker 1: the podcast, I mean, I love people. That's actually been

549
00:28:49,236 --> 00:28:52,476
Speaker 1: the through line through all of these seemingly disparate career choices,

550
00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:54,516
Speaker 1: which is at their heart, it's always been about human

551
00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:58,276
Speaker 1: connection and forging human connection. Certainly through music, you can

552
00:28:58,316 --> 00:29:01,836
Speaker 1: make people feel things they've never felt before, and that's intoxicating.

553
00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:04,556
Speaker 1: And then in my role as a cognitive scientist, I

554
00:29:04,636 --> 00:29:07,636
Speaker 1: studied the human condition. I study how it is that

555
00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:10,196
Speaker 1: we even connect with one another. And at the White House,

556
00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:12,676
Speaker 1: you know when you're on the ground in Flint, Michigan.

557
00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:16,556
Speaker 1: The wonky policy stuff feels super far away, and it's

558
00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:19,516
Speaker 1: really just about connecting with human beings who are in

559
00:29:19,636 --> 00:29:22,956
Speaker 1: states of distress. And so I do feel like I've

560
00:29:22,996 --> 00:29:28,356
Speaker 1: always been motivated by a love and curiosity and empathy

561
00:29:28,476 --> 00:29:31,036
Speaker 1: for humans. That's kind of like the thing that makes

562
00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:34,196
Speaker 1: me tick, and so the podcast in many ways, I

563
00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:38,716
Speaker 1: never dreamt of being a podcaster. But when twenty hit

564
00:29:38,876 --> 00:29:44,116
Speaker 1: and I was feeling overwhelmed by, first of all, just

565
00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:45,876
Speaker 1: what was happening in the world. I mean, I think

566
00:29:45,876 --> 00:29:47,796
Speaker 1: that kind of took us all by storm, and no

567
00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:50,356
Speaker 1: one knew how to respond in this collective moment of

568
00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:53,356
Speaker 1: grief and loss and shock. And then I was going

569
00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:56,396
Speaker 1: through loss in my personal life. So one of the

570
00:29:56,476 --> 00:29:59,636
Speaker 1: challenges that I faced is my husband and I have

571
00:29:59,676 --> 00:30:02,036
Speaker 1: to work with a surrogate in order to have a baby.

572
00:30:02,156 --> 00:30:05,596
Speaker 1: And after years of trying to find our surrogate, we

573
00:30:05,676 --> 00:30:09,796
Speaker 1: found her. We found Haley in Arkansas, and she's amazing,

574
00:30:09,916 --> 00:30:13,156
Speaker 1: and I'd gone through all their fertility treatments and she

575
00:30:13,236 --> 00:30:15,996
Speaker 1: was pregnant with our baby girl, and we were so

576
00:30:16,156 --> 00:30:18,476
Speaker 1: over the moon and so thrilled that this was finally

577
00:30:19,996 --> 00:30:22,276
Speaker 1: happening for us. You know, it's one process in life

578
00:30:22,276 --> 00:30:24,596
Speaker 1: where you just don't have control. You know, no amount

579
00:30:24,596 --> 00:30:27,756
Speaker 1: of like maya hustle translates in this space. It's just

580
00:30:27,876 --> 00:30:29,916
Speaker 1: it's not like other spaces that I've been in. And

581
00:30:29,956 --> 00:30:33,356
Speaker 1: so we were so thrilled. And then Haley had a

582
00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:37,756
Speaker 1: miscarriage and we lost our baby, and we were devastated.

583
00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:41,836
Speaker 1: I was devastated. I was so intimidated by this moment.

584
00:30:42,276 --> 00:30:46,196
Speaker 1: As someone who had endured so much change, this change

585
00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:48,596
Speaker 1: felt different to me, and I felt like I didn't

586
00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:52,556
Speaker 1: have the tools in my toolbox to figure it out.

587
00:30:52,596 --> 00:30:55,156
Speaker 1: And we were also all quarantined. I wasn't even able

588
00:30:55,196 --> 00:30:57,836
Speaker 1: to spend physical time with the very few people in

589
00:30:57,876 --> 00:31:00,516
Speaker 1: my life who knew about this at the time. And

590
00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:03,676
Speaker 1: so I guess I did the thing that I tend

591
00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:05,596
Speaker 1: to do in these moments, which is I kind of

592
00:31:05,636 --> 00:31:08,076
Speaker 1: like got to action, you know, which is I think

593
00:31:08,116 --> 00:31:10,796
Speaker 1: something that's kind of chacteristic of my personality, which is

594
00:31:10,836 --> 00:31:14,196
Speaker 1: I am a very proactive person, you know, don't I

595
00:31:14,196 --> 00:31:17,076
Speaker 1: don't like kind of marinating in the negativity. I'm always

596
00:31:17,076 --> 00:31:18,596
Speaker 1: trying to find a way out. It's probably just a

597
00:31:18,596 --> 00:31:23,676
Speaker 1: survival mechanism. But I thought to myself, Okay, you're feeling

598
00:31:23,756 --> 00:31:27,116
Speaker 1: really scared by all the change, but you know that

599
00:31:27,396 --> 00:31:30,196
Speaker 1: change is not new to humans, Like you know that

600
00:31:30,236 --> 00:31:33,276
Speaker 1: we've done this rodeo, this change rodeo, many times before,

601
00:31:34,156 --> 00:31:39,356
Speaker 1: and that while the current moment feels daunting, our human

602
00:31:39,436 --> 00:31:43,316
Speaker 1: ability to navigate change is not unprecedented. It's not new,

603
00:31:43,876 --> 00:31:46,756
Speaker 1: and maybe if you can find people who have navigated

604
00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:49,996
Speaker 1: extraordinary change and come out the other side, you can

605
00:31:50,116 --> 00:31:53,316
Speaker 1: learn from them. So it was actually motivated by a

606
00:31:53,436 --> 00:31:57,836
Speaker 1: very personal desire to crack the nut on change, because

607
00:31:58,516 --> 00:32:00,316
Speaker 1: even though I studied it, I felt like the science

608
00:32:00,356 --> 00:32:02,636
Speaker 1: was falling short, and I felt like I needed to

609
00:32:02,676 --> 00:32:05,836
Speaker 1: connect with other human beings and to hear their stories.

610
00:32:06,436 --> 00:32:10,316
Speaker 1: And so that's that's what gave rise to what became

611
00:32:10,356 --> 00:32:15,076
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans. I'm so sorry, May thank you. Yeah,

612
00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:19,596
Speaker 1: it's been it's been tough. There's an episode of the

613
00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:22,036
Speaker 1: show in which you talk about this at length, and

614
00:32:22,796 --> 00:32:25,436
Speaker 1: I do want to talk about that. But in terms

615
00:32:25,476 --> 00:32:31,956
Speaker 1: of getting started, like you're embarking on this totally due medium,

616
00:32:32,116 --> 00:32:36,796
Speaker 1: totally different than anything you've done before from a practical sense,

617
00:32:36,876 --> 00:32:39,476
Speaker 1: Like how did you approach that shift, because I think

618
00:32:39,476 --> 00:32:41,916
Speaker 1: there's probably a fair number of people who are listening

619
00:32:42,636 --> 00:32:46,316
Speaker 1: who are thinking about those kinds of transitions in their

620
00:32:46,356 --> 00:32:50,076
Speaker 1: own professional lives, and actually I think specifically around podcasting,

621
00:32:50,116 --> 00:32:52,036
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of people who are thinking about

622
00:32:52,636 --> 00:32:54,596
Speaker 1: how they could do that or if they could do that,

623
00:32:54,756 --> 00:32:59,716
Speaker 1: And I wonder how you approached actually doing the work. Yeah,

624
00:32:59,716 --> 00:33:03,476
Speaker 1: I mean I called again, similar to that White House interview,

625
00:33:03,516 --> 00:33:06,636
Speaker 1: I called smart people. I had a friend named Max Lynsky.

626
00:33:06,956 --> 00:33:08,636
Speaker 1: Now you're just like blowing up my spot. I just

627
00:33:08,676 --> 00:33:10,476
Speaker 1: ask you that question, like I didn't know the answer,

628
00:33:10,516 --> 00:33:12,716
Speaker 1: but I do kind of a little bit. I mean answer,

629
00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:15,196
Speaker 1: did you leave the witness a little bit and your

630
00:33:15,236 --> 00:33:17,956
Speaker 1: subconscious didn't know it? Max? No, but it was an

631
00:33:17,956 --> 00:33:20,396
Speaker 1: important conversation. And I'm not you know, I don't mean

632
00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:22,676
Speaker 1: to make you uncomfortable by saying that you help this

633
00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:25,356
Speaker 1: podcast happen. But you did help this podcast happen, which

634
00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:27,716
Speaker 1: is I called you up and I said I had

635
00:33:27,716 --> 00:33:30,036
Speaker 1: this idea for a podcast, and I need you to

636
00:33:30,116 --> 00:33:32,396
Speaker 1: keep it real with me about whether this idea has

637
00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:36,076
Speaker 1: legs and whether you think there's something there, and also

638
00:33:36,156 --> 00:33:38,556
Speaker 1: can you just give me some confidence that I can

639
00:33:38,596 --> 00:33:41,196
Speaker 1: be a podcast host. I needed to hear all those things.

640
00:33:41,196 --> 00:33:43,836
Speaker 1: It's not like when you build confidence in one area

641
00:33:43,876 --> 00:33:47,196
Speaker 1: of life, it just naturally translates over into another. It's

642
00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:51,116
Speaker 1: all of them. Michael Jordan's basketball to baseball switch. You

643
00:33:51,156 --> 00:33:53,316
Speaker 1: never know what's going to happen, folks. And so I

644
00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:56,156
Speaker 1: didn't know if I could do podcasting. You know, I

645
00:33:56,196 --> 00:33:58,996
Speaker 1: didn't have interview experience, and I just didn't know what

646
00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:02,076
Speaker 1: this whole enterprise was like. And so I remember what

647
00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:06,876
Speaker 1: you told me is just get started. Just do an interview.

648
00:34:07,196 --> 00:34:09,076
Speaker 1: That was so interesting to me because that felt again

649
00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:11,156
Speaker 1: like the order of operations is off. I was like, wait, no, no,

650
00:34:11,196 --> 00:34:13,276
Speaker 1: I thought, I have to like convince the company to

651
00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:14,556
Speaker 1: want to work with me and everything. So I just

652
00:34:14,596 --> 00:34:16,836
Speaker 1: do an interview. And I remember I interviewed my husband

653
00:34:16,916 --> 00:34:20,676
Speaker 1: Jimmy about his career changes, about his slight change of plans,

654
00:34:20,836 --> 00:34:23,356
Speaker 1: and it was a shitty interview. Max. I am glad

655
00:34:23,396 --> 00:34:25,196
Speaker 1: I don't have that recording anymore. I sent it to

656
00:34:25,236 --> 00:34:27,436
Speaker 1: my best friend, who loves both my husband and me,

657
00:34:27,476 --> 00:34:30,156
Speaker 1: and she's like, girl, this sucks. I was really bored,

658
00:34:30,236 --> 00:34:33,196
Speaker 1: that's what she said. And so the end outcome was

659
00:34:33,276 --> 00:34:35,836
Speaker 1: maybe not amazing, but it gave me an understanding of

660
00:34:35,836 --> 00:34:37,556
Speaker 1: what this show could kind of be. And I'm so

661
00:34:37,636 --> 00:34:40,356
Speaker 1: grateful for that advice. And I think it's actually important

662
00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:43,476
Speaker 1: to share because sometimes it's really helpful to just get

663
00:34:43,476 --> 00:34:46,116
Speaker 1: your feet wet. So I did that, and then I

664
00:34:46,156 --> 00:34:49,076
Speaker 1: also called up my tried and tested advisor, Laurie Santos.

665
00:34:49,516 --> 00:34:52,716
Speaker 1: She works with Pushkin Industry, so Malcolm Gladwell's production company

666
00:34:52,716 --> 00:34:54,716
Speaker 1: on a show called The Happiness Lab. She's made that

667
00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:58,436
Speaker 1: transition too, Yeah, yeah, from academia to podcasting. And so

668
00:34:59,036 --> 00:35:01,796
Speaker 1: I started writing up this pitch, which I ran by

669
00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:04,076
Speaker 1: you and got a lot of good feedback on, and

670
00:35:04,956 --> 00:35:07,236
Speaker 1: she just ended up sending it to the head of Pushkin.

671
00:35:07,476 --> 00:35:10,276
Speaker 1: I did a piloting process and and Pushkin ended up

672
00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:12,036
Speaker 1: green lighting it. And that's when I got to really

673
00:35:12,076 --> 00:35:15,996
Speaker 1: start and how have you approached interviewing? Like, how have

674
00:35:16,196 --> 00:35:20,756
Speaker 1: these various experiences that you've had impacted the way that

675
00:35:20,796 --> 00:35:23,716
Speaker 1: you ask people questions? Do you think of yourself as

676
00:35:23,756 --> 00:35:27,556
Speaker 1: a journalist? No, Oh my god. Do you know how

677
00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:29,836
Speaker 1: any journalists I'd offend if I said I considered myself

678
00:35:29,836 --> 00:35:31,916
Speaker 1: a journalist? Max, I am interested in how you think

679
00:35:31,956 --> 00:35:35,356
Speaker 1: about it. Is it yeah? Is it journalism? Is it entertainment?

680
00:35:35,596 --> 00:35:39,396
Speaker 1: Is it science? It's a great question when I've never

681
00:35:39,396 --> 00:35:42,636
Speaker 1: been asked before. When I think about it, actually I

682
00:35:42,676 --> 00:35:45,996
Speaker 1: feel like, Okay, there's a there's a parallel here, which

683
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:48,676
Speaker 1: is when I entered the government, because I had such

684
00:35:48,716 --> 00:35:52,076
Speaker 1: a lack of experience, there was an advantage to that,

685
00:35:52,156 --> 00:35:56,636
Speaker 1: which is I didn't see rules and red tape and

686
00:35:56,876 --> 00:35:59,556
Speaker 1: obstacles where a lot of people who were more seasoned

687
00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:02,116
Speaker 1: in the government would have seen them. I was really

688
00:36:02,156 --> 00:36:04,516
Speaker 1: just making things up as I went along, and in

689
00:36:04,556 --> 00:36:07,276
Speaker 1: some ways that was an asset because I didn't feel

690
00:36:07,356 --> 00:36:11,036
Speaker 1: encumbered by some of the structure that existed there. And

691
00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:13,876
Speaker 1: I think the same is true for podcasting and interviewing,

692
00:36:13,916 --> 00:36:16,076
Speaker 1: which is I'm not a student of anything, like I've

693
00:36:16,116 --> 00:36:19,276
Speaker 1: never taken like an interview class. I've never i had

694
00:36:19,316 --> 00:36:22,476
Speaker 1: no experience interviewing people, but I love podcasts, so I've

695
00:36:22,516 --> 00:36:26,076
Speaker 1: consumed lots of interviews, and I think this show for

696
00:36:26,196 --> 00:36:30,516
Speaker 1: me was an expression of genuine curiosity, like I would

697
00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:33,636
Speaker 1: show up to interviews fascinated by a person's story. So

698
00:36:33,676 --> 00:36:36,396
Speaker 1: the first person I interview on the show is a

699
00:36:36,436 --> 00:36:39,676
Speaker 1: black jazz musician named Daryl Davis who ends up convincing

700
00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:43,156
Speaker 1: people to leave the Ku Klux Klan. Okay, So that's

701
00:36:43,236 --> 00:36:46,916
Speaker 1: like an unbelievable story. And the way I prepared for

702
00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:50,556
Speaker 1: that interview was to consume everything he had ever done,

703
00:36:50,636 --> 00:36:52,916
Speaker 1: every interview'd ever given, everything he'd ever written in his

704
00:36:52,956 --> 00:36:56,436
Speaker 1: whole life. I spent probably like fifty plus hours preparing

705
00:36:56,476 --> 00:36:58,716
Speaker 1: for every single interview I do on the lower end

706
00:36:58,836 --> 00:37:02,996
Speaker 1: sometimes and I go in being like, I'm a listener

707
00:37:03,036 --> 00:37:05,236
Speaker 1: of the show. That's how I think about it. It's like,

708
00:37:05,276 --> 00:37:07,436
Speaker 1: if I'm a listener of this show of a slight

709
00:37:07,516 --> 00:37:09,956
Speaker 1: change of plans, what do I want to know about Darryl?

710
00:37:10,756 --> 00:37:13,356
Speaker 1: I think I'm a cognitive scientist because I was already

711
00:37:13,396 --> 00:37:16,476
Speaker 1: so fascinated by humans, So it might be wrong to

712
00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:18,956
Speaker 1: say that because I'm a cognitive scientist, my questions are

713
00:37:18,956 --> 00:37:20,916
Speaker 1: informed by that. I think I'm actually just like so

714
00:37:21,036 --> 00:37:24,436
Speaker 1: naturally interested in human beings that I put that lens

715
00:37:24,516 --> 00:37:27,436
Speaker 1: on everything that I do, that cognitive science lens. There's

716
00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:30,076
Speaker 1: an element, I guess you can say, of science because

717
00:37:30,236 --> 00:37:33,716
Speaker 1: that's my training, and so I'm fascinated by every facet

718
00:37:33,716 --> 00:37:36,516
Speaker 1: of human psychology, and I think something that makes this

719
00:37:36,556 --> 00:37:40,116
Speaker 1: show different from simply reporting on a change, is that

720
00:37:40,156 --> 00:37:43,796
Speaker 1: I'm always interested in the psychological shifts that are happening

721
00:37:43,876 --> 00:37:47,116
Speaker 1: underneath the surface. So I'm hearing about the external events

722
00:37:47,156 --> 00:37:49,796
Speaker 1: that this person went through, but I'm always probing to

723
00:37:49,876 --> 00:37:53,076
Speaker 1: understand how their psychology was changing along the way. And

724
00:37:53,116 --> 00:37:55,916
Speaker 1: that's maybe where the cognitive science piece comes in. How

725
00:37:55,996 --> 00:37:58,436
Speaker 1: is your psychology you've been changing along the way doing

726
00:37:58,436 --> 00:38:02,876
Speaker 1: the show. I think that's been the most surprising part

727
00:38:02,876 --> 00:38:04,836
Speaker 1: of this whole show for me, in the most nourishing

728
00:38:04,876 --> 00:38:08,716
Speaker 1: part of this whole show, which is I'm in the

729
00:38:08,756 --> 00:38:11,676
Speaker 1: inner right and I'm preparing for the interview, and the

730
00:38:11,676 --> 00:38:13,556
Speaker 1: interviews will often run for I don't know, an hour

731
00:38:13,596 --> 00:38:15,396
Speaker 1: and a half or something, and we end up condensing

732
00:38:15,396 --> 00:38:17,876
Speaker 1: it to about thirty minutes. And then I'm an executive

733
00:38:17,876 --> 00:38:20,116
Speaker 1: producer on the show. I help edit the show, I

734
00:38:20,156 --> 00:38:23,836
Speaker 1: write narration for the show. I'm listening to each episode

735
00:38:23,916 --> 00:38:28,036
Speaker 1: before it reaches completion, probably like a dozen times. And

736
00:38:28,116 --> 00:38:32,036
Speaker 1: yet despite all of that exposure, I will find myself

737
00:38:32,156 --> 00:38:36,876
Speaker 1: months later making a PV sandwich peanut butter sandwich, thinking

738
00:38:36,916 --> 00:38:42,516
Speaker 1: about something that my guest told me months ago. That

739
00:38:42,516 --> 00:38:45,796
Speaker 1: thought will come into my mind and it will enrich

740
00:38:46,036 --> 00:38:48,676
Speaker 1: my own psychology and make me think totally differently about

741
00:38:48,676 --> 00:38:51,636
Speaker 1: the current moment that I'm in. And so I feel

742
00:38:51,636 --> 00:38:54,436
Speaker 1: like every conversation I've had has somehow stuck with me

743
00:38:54,636 --> 00:38:58,236
Speaker 1: and stayed with me in this really powerful way. And

744
00:38:59,316 --> 00:39:02,676
Speaker 1: it's affecting the way that I think about my philosophy

745
00:39:02,676 --> 00:39:04,916
Speaker 1: on life, It's affecting the way that I think about change,

746
00:39:04,916 --> 00:39:07,076
Speaker 1: it's affecting the way that I think about my self identity.

747
00:39:07,636 --> 00:39:11,276
Speaker 1: And that's amazing because I didn't expect for there to

748
00:39:11,276 --> 00:39:15,236
Speaker 1: be this continuous cycle where you know, you put stuff

749
00:39:15,236 --> 00:39:16,676
Speaker 1: out into the world, and you get stuff back, and

750
00:39:16,716 --> 00:39:18,636
Speaker 1: then you also have all these ideas marinating. I mean,

751
00:39:18,676 --> 00:39:20,756
Speaker 1: it's amazing. I feel like we've been talking this whole

752
00:39:20,756 --> 00:39:24,676
Speaker 1: time about your identity and how it has changed and shifted.

753
00:39:25,476 --> 00:39:30,556
Speaker 1: I'm interested in for you personally, what has shifted from

754
00:39:30,596 --> 00:39:34,876
Speaker 1: doing this work. And maybe this is the time to

755
00:39:34,916 --> 00:39:37,956
Speaker 1: talk about this episode you did that was about you,

756
00:39:38,116 --> 00:39:42,356
Speaker 1: because when I heard it, it's devastating, But I was

757
00:39:42,396 --> 00:39:47,476
Speaker 1: also so impressed that you had decided to do that publicly,

758
00:39:47,516 --> 00:39:51,316
Speaker 1: because it didn't seem totally in character to me. No,

759
00:39:51,516 --> 00:39:55,996
Speaker 1: that's totally true. The decision to do that felt like

760
00:39:56,076 --> 00:40:00,076
Speaker 1: evidence of a shift. Yeah, I think that's completely right.

761
00:40:00,116 --> 00:40:02,076
Speaker 1: I mean I always thought, you know, I'm the interviewer,

762
00:40:02,076 --> 00:40:04,196
Speaker 1: and I bring guests on and they share their stories.

763
00:40:04,236 --> 00:40:06,396
Speaker 1: That was always my mental model going into the show.

764
00:40:06,636 --> 00:40:08,716
Speaker 1: And you're in control of how much you're going to

765
00:40:08,796 --> 00:40:11,956
Speaker 1: put out there of yourself, and you're just helping people along. Absolutely,

766
00:40:12,196 --> 00:40:14,836
Speaker 1: And I tend to be open about certain things but

767
00:40:14,876 --> 00:40:18,956
Speaker 1: also deeply private about other things, and certainly this whole fertility,

768
00:40:18,996 --> 00:40:22,556
Speaker 1: surrogacy miscarriage space was was not something I was going

769
00:40:22,636 --> 00:40:26,076
Speaker 1: on the road talking about. But here's what happened. So

770
00:40:26,476 --> 00:40:28,476
Speaker 1: I already mentioned that we had a pregnancy loss with

771
00:40:28,516 --> 00:40:31,596
Speaker 1: our surrogate in February of twenty twenty and then I'm

772
00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:35,396
Speaker 1: making the show in twenty twenty one, and in late summer,

773
00:40:35,876 --> 00:40:39,276
Speaker 1: we go through another embryo transfer with our surrogate, Hailey,

774
00:40:40,236 --> 00:40:43,276
Speaker 1: and this time she's pregnant with identical twin girls, so

775
00:40:43,356 --> 00:40:47,276
Speaker 1: our embryo split. It was so exciting, And I'm in

776
00:40:47,316 --> 00:40:50,636
Speaker 1: the middle of production for season two of a slight

777
00:40:50,716 --> 00:40:56,036
Speaker 1: change of plans, and all of a sudden, Haley miscarries

778
00:40:56,036 --> 00:40:59,556
Speaker 1: again on exactly the same day of development for the

779
00:40:59,596 --> 00:41:08,156
Speaker 1: baby and I mean this time, it's just like I'm

780
00:41:08,196 --> 00:41:10,676
Speaker 1: still speechless because I just remember what that moment felt like.

781
00:41:10,836 --> 00:41:14,676
Speaker 1: Where's like, wait, really again the same exact thing. How

782
00:41:14,756 --> 00:41:16,836
Speaker 1: is this happening? We just saw the healthy babies on

783
00:41:16,876 --> 00:41:22,076
Speaker 1: an ultrasound and there's a miscarriage again. We later learned

784
00:41:22,276 --> 00:41:26,516
Speaker 1: that Haley likely had an autoimmune response to our embryos.

785
00:41:26,516 --> 00:41:29,436
Speaker 1: So it's just it was just a bad fit. We

786
00:41:29,436 --> 00:41:33,476
Speaker 1: were a perfect human fit and just not a good

787
00:41:33,596 --> 00:41:36,756
Speaker 1: biological fit, which is something that is such a bizarre

788
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:41,116
Speaker 1: thing to happen. I remember thinking in that moment, I

789
00:41:41,156 --> 00:41:43,836
Speaker 1: feel like I need to make something good come of this,

790
00:41:44,116 --> 00:41:49,036
Speaker 1: because it otherwise just only feels bad. And I feel

791
00:41:49,116 --> 00:41:53,156
Speaker 1: like I also need some outlet to process what's going

792
00:41:53,196 --> 00:41:55,876
Speaker 1: on in my mind. And so I called my producer

793
00:41:56,156 --> 00:41:59,596
Speaker 1: the day after this happened, and I said, I think

794
00:41:59,636 --> 00:42:01,676
Speaker 1: I want to share this on the show, like would

795
00:42:01,676 --> 00:42:05,596
Speaker 1: you be willing to interview me? Which is so foreign

796
00:42:05,676 --> 00:42:07,836
Speaker 1: to me. Max, I never ever thought that I would

797
00:42:08,036 --> 00:42:11,356
Speaker 1: want to do this, But I also kind of realized

798
00:42:11,396 --> 00:42:13,156
Speaker 1: and I was pushing myself, thinking, you know, this is

799
00:42:13,196 --> 00:42:15,196
Speaker 1: something you ask of your guests all the time, like

800
00:42:15,276 --> 00:42:19,436
Speaker 1: extreme vulnerability and honesty and transparency, and a willingness to

801
00:42:19,476 --> 00:42:21,676
Speaker 1: kind of quote, go there, and you haven't been willing

802
00:42:21,716 --> 00:42:24,436
Speaker 1: to do this about the stuff you're going through in

803
00:42:24,476 --> 00:42:28,356
Speaker 1: your own life. And I already was starting to feel

804
00:42:28,356 --> 00:42:30,556
Speaker 1: so connected to my listeners at this point. I mean,

805
00:42:30,556 --> 00:42:33,836
Speaker 1: in many ways, it's an ode to my listeners that

806
00:42:33,876 --> 00:42:36,996
Speaker 1: I had the confidence to do this, because they had

807
00:42:37,876 --> 00:42:41,796
Speaker 1: already started creating the supportive bubble around me, where you know,

808
00:42:41,876 --> 00:42:44,396
Speaker 1: I get emails from listeners every single day from all

809
00:42:44,436 --> 00:42:47,676
Speaker 1: over the world talking about the show and loving the

810
00:42:47,716 --> 00:42:51,316
Speaker 1: show and loving hearing what I had to say, which

811
00:42:51,356 --> 00:42:53,956
Speaker 1: was also amazing to hear because I was always focusing

812
00:42:53,956 --> 00:42:55,596
Speaker 1: on the guests and I just thought of myself as

813
00:42:55,676 --> 00:42:57,276
Speaker 1: kind of like you know, fly on the wall who

814
00:42:57,276 --> 00:42:59,596
Speaker 1: occasionally asked questions. But I was noticing that listeners were

815
00:42:59,596 --> 00:43:02,276
Speaker 1: really responding to that, and so they gave me the

816
00:43:02,316 --> 00:43:05,836
Speaker 1: confidence that my story was worth sharing. And so I

817
00:43:05,876 --> 00:43:08,596
Speaker 1: remember telling my producer, we have to record this tomorrow

818
00:43:08,596 --> 00:43:10,956
Speaker 1: morning otherwise as I'm going to change my mind. And

819
00:43:10,996 --> 00:43:13,116
Speaker 1: I also don't want too much time to pass because

820
00:43:13,116 --> 00:43:15,556
Speaker 1: I don't want to have created a narrative around this

821
00:43:15,596 --> 00:43:17,116
Speaker 1: is what the human instinct we all have in our

822
00:43:17,156 --> 00:43:19,356
Speaker 1: psychology is to create narratives around what happens to us.

823
00:43:19,356 --> 00:43:21,196
Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't want there to have

824
00:43:21,236 --> 00:43:23,996
Speaker 1: been too much processing. I really want to process what

825
00:43:24,076 --> 00:43:25,796
Speaker 1: I'm going through out loud. You did not have it

826
00:43:25,876 --> 00:43:28,796
Speaker 1: figured out. I really didn't, and I still don't for

827
00:43:28,836 --> 00:43:30,156
Speaker 1: what it's worth, but I maybe I have it more

828
00:43:30,196 --> 00:43:32,156
Speaker 1: figured out than I did then. So it was the

829
00:43:32,276 --> 00:43:35,956
Speaker 1: rawest I've ever been and we put it out into

830
00:43:35,956 --> 00:43:38,916
Speaker 1: the world. The episodes called maya slight change of plans,

831
00:43:39,396 --> 00:43:43,796
Speaker 1: which is so again unexpected. And it's funny that I

832
00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:45,436
Speaker 1: say we put it out into the world because I

833
00:43:45,436 --> 00:43:47,476
Speaker 1: think that again was my mental model. You put things

834
00:43:47,476 --> 00:43:50,156
Speaker 1: into the world. What I didn't anticipate is what I

835
00:43:50,156 --> 00:43:55,956
Speaker 1: would receive in response. And I feel completely overwhelmed by

836
00:43:57,396 --> 00:44:00,276
Speaker 1: what listeners of this show gave me in return. It

837
00:44:00,356 --> 00:44:07,716
Speaker 1: makes me emotional. Podcasting becomes a conversation between you and

838
00:44:07,756 --> 00:44:11,276
Speaker 1: your listeners, and I didn't expect that going into all

839
00:44:11,316 --> 00:44:14,436
Speaker 1: of this, but it is absolutely the most beautiful thing

840
00:44:14,476 --> 00:44:16,556
Speaker 1: that's happened to me as a result of this show.

841
00:44:17,036 --> 00:44:18,996
Speaker 1: And has that opened you up in other aspects of

842
00:44:19,036 --> 00:44:22,676
Speaker 1: your life? Does it translate to your personal life? Yeah,

843
00:44:22,676 --> 00:44:27,276
Speaker 1: I'm more hopeful and positive about human beings because I

844
00:44:27,316 --> 00:44:31,036
Speaker 1: see the love and generosity of spirit from people who

845
00:44:31,116 --> 00:44:33,276
Speaker 1: are consuming the show all the time, and I also

846
00:44:33,356 --> 00:44:36,476
Speaker 1: hear about their lives, and it makes me feel connected

847
00:44:36,476 --> 00:44:38,476
Speaker 1: to people in a time when it's especially hard to

848
00:44:38,476 --> 00:44:41,276
Speaker 1: connect with people. And does that make you better at

849
00:44:41,276 --> 00:44:46,756
Speaker 1: your job? Probably? I think the more empathy we build

850
00:44:46,756 --> 00:44:50,356
Speaker 1: as people and the more curiosity we cultivate about others,

851
00:44:50,476 --> 00:44:53,436
Speaker 1: the better will be as interviewers. I had to like

852
00:44:53,636 --> 00:44:56,836
Speaker 1: learn about like interview structure. When I first started this,

853
00:44:57,116 --> 00:44:59,036
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I don't know these things right. So

854
00:44:59,076 --> 00:45:02,796
Speaker 1: I've learned so much from my producers on the show

855
00:45:02,836 --> 00:45:06,676
Speaker 1: and my editor Jen Guerra has like taught me about structure.

856
00:45:07,676 --> 00:45:10,716
Speaker 1: But mostly, like what I've driven by is just my

857
00:45:10,756 --> 00:45:15,236
Speaker 1: own curiosity, and so I think probably it's translated what

858
00:45:15,316 --> 00:45:19,516
Speaker 1: about your ambition? How driven are you by ambition and

859
00:45:19,676 --> 00:45:25,556
Speaker 1: what you want for yourself? Whether it's playing with Pearlman

860
00:45:25,636 --> 00:45:32,876
Speaker 1: in Carnegie Hall, which happened, or working with Barack Obama,

861
00:45:33,156 --> 00:45:39,036
Speaker 1: which happened, or being named Apple's Podcast of the Year,

862
00:45:39,676 --> 00:45:48,876
Speaker 1: which happened, How driven are you by those end goal results? Look?

863
00:45:48,876 --> 00:45:52,156
Speaker 1: I am I am a driven, ambitious person at my core.

864
00:45:52,596 --> 00:45:55,156
Speaker 1: They're never able to take that out of me. I

865
00:45:55,196 --> 00:45:58,556
Speaker 1: do find, certainly with this podcast that I have been

866
00:45:59,596 --> 00:46:07,196
Speaker 1: not that interested in external achievements because I find the

867
00:46:07,276 --> 00:46:11,556
Speaker 1: thing itself so enjoyable and rewarding. And by the way,

868
00:46:11,596 --> 00:46:13,636
Speaker 1: the Apple thing just came out of nowhere, like I

869
00:46:14,876 --> 00:46:18,636
Speaker 1: in a sea of millions of podcasts. The reason I

870
00:46:18,716 --> 00:46:21,916
Speaker 1: laughed ambition of the kind that you're describing in the

871
00:46:21,916 --> 00:46:24,956
Speaker 1: podcasting spaces that I just felt like, what's even the point.

872
00:46:25,236 --> 00:46:27,116
Speaker 1: There's no point in having a vision in this space.

873
00:46:27,156 --> 00:46:29,556
Speaker 1: It's so saturated. I'll just be happy if I get

874
00:46:29,596 --> 00:46:34,596
Speaker 1: people to listen to this show. That's where my expectations were, truly.

875
00:46:35,276 --> 00:46:37,756
Speaker 1: I could never have anticipated that the show would become

876
00:46:37,756 --> 00:46:40,196
Speaker 1: what it was. And then when Apple gave us the

877
00:46:40,196 --> 00:46:42,356
Speaker 1: Best Show of the Year award, I mean, I just like,

878
00:46:42,476 --> 00:46:44,196
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I might have laughed out loud.

879
00:46:44,636 --> 00:46:47,156
Speaker 1: I was like, how did this happen? This is insane?

880
00:46:47,396 --> 00:46:51,036
Speaker 1: This is totally completely wild and nuts. So that was

881
00:46:51,116 --> 00:46:54,516
Speaker 1: like cherry on the freaking top. And don't get me wrong,

882
00:46:54,796 --> 00:46:56,876
Speaker 1: I was over the moon about it. So it's not

883
00:46:56,916 --> 00:46:59,236
Speaker 1: like I'm rejecting. I'm not one of those people who

884
00:46:59,236 --> 00:47:02,076
Speaker 1: you know, I've read about these Nobel Prize winners who

885
00:47:02,076 --> 00:47:04,676
Speaker 1: are like, no, I refuse to accept the award. It's like, no,

886
00:47:04,676 --> 00:47:06,836
Speaker 1: no, no no, I'm not one of those people. I will

887
00:47:06,836 --> 00:47:11,436
Speaker 1: always accept the award. But I don't feel driven by

888
00:47:11,596 --> 00:47:14,316
Speaker 1: the external stuff when it comes to this podcast, because

889
00:47:14,316 --> 00:47:17,036
Speaker 1: there's just like so much humanity underneath it all in

890
00:47:17,076 --> 00:47:19,876
Speaker 1: a way that like it's nourishing me at a deeper

891
00:47:19,956 --> 00:47:22,676
Speaker 1: level than I could ever have expected. I don't know

892
00:47:22,716 --> 00:47:24,556
Speaker 1: if that resonates with you, but it just feels like

893
00:47:24,556 --> 00:47:27,996
Speaker 1: it's a different, a different part of my being is

894
00:47:28,036 --> 00:47:32,596
Speaker 1: being nourished by this podcast. That makes me not pay

895
00:47:32,636 --> 00:47:35,196
Speaker 1: attention to that stuff as much. That makes sense to

896
00:47:35,196 --> 00:47:36,516
Speaker 1: me in the context of the show. I think the

897
00:47:36,516 --> 00:47:41,556
Speaker 1: thing I was prying at is whether there is connective

898
00:47:41,556 --> 00:47:46,596
Speaker 1: tissue between these three totally different paths who have been

899
00:47:46,676 --> 00:47:52,036
Speaker 1: on and ambition. I think when I take something on

900
00:47:52,316 --> 00:47:54,436
Speaker 1: and I feel a lot of ownership over it, which

901
00:47:54,476 --> 00:47:57,036
Speaker 1: I did with a Violin because it was my creative pursuit,

902
00:47:57,676 --> 00:47:59,836
Speaker 1: and then with the White House team I was building

903
00:47:59,836 --> 00:48:01,876
Speaker 1: it from scratch, and then with a podcast and making

904
00:48:01,876 --> 00:48:04,556
Speaker 1: the show, I just try and excel as much as

905
00:48:04,556 --> 00:48:07,116
Speaker 1: I can, just try to always make it the best

906
00:48:07,156 --> 00:48:10,436
Speaker 1: thing that I can imagine. That might be the thing

907
00:48:10,476 --> 00:48:14,036
Speaker 1: that stayed constant. I think the thing that's been surprising

908
00:48:14,036 --> 00:48:18,636
Speaker 1: to me about podcasting is that you might have that

909
00:48:18,756 --> 00:48:22,436
Speaker 1: goal of being like making the thing great, but then

910
00:48:22,476 --> 00:48:26,276
Speaker 1: translating that into hard work is a totally different thing. Right,

911
00:48:26,916 --> 00:48:30,116
Speaker 1: and with a violin, there was a lot of hours

912
00:48:30,156 --> 00:48:33,036
Speaker 1: spent not having a ton of fun in my practice

913
00:48:33,116 --> 00:48:36,956
Speaker 1: room trying to get a passage right, and also time

914
00:48:36,996 --> 00:48:41,116
Speaker 1: I spent listening to Britney Spears on MTV TRL hashtag

915
00:48:41,156 --> 00:48:44,316
Speaker 1: Carson daily instead of practicing because it's just like, not

916
00:48:44,356 --> 00:48:46,916
Speaker 1: all that's fun. And I think the thing that surprised

917
00:48:46,956 --> 00:48:53,596
Speaker 1: me about podcasting is how rewarding I'm finding the day

918
00:48:53,636 --> 00:48:57,076
Speaker 1: to day aspects of it, the actual making, which is

919
00:48:57,116 --> 00:49:00,356
Speaker 1: so important because you need to really enjoy the making

920
00:49:00,356 --> 00:49:05,116
Speaker 1: of the thing in order to sustain your interest in

921
00:49:05,156 --> 00:49:08,156
Speaker 1: it and desire to keep doing it and to feel

922
00:49:08,196 --> 00:49:11,596
Speaker 1: like even if it's doesn't become a great thing, it

923
00:49:11,676 --> 00:49:14,516
Speaker 1: was still worth it. Do you have any sense of

924
00:49:14,556 --> 00:49:18,396
Speaker 1: what the next version of your life is going to be?

925
00:49:19,316 --> 00:49:21,796
Speaker 1: I don't. Do you think about that? So this has

926
00:49:21,796 --> 00:49:24,076
Speaker 1: probably been the greatest shift that's happened for me in

927
00:49:24,116 --> 00:49:28,636
Speaker 1: my life. And maybe this hits on your your question

928
00:49:28,676 --> 00:49:32,396
Speaker 1: about ambition. I am like a type a person through

929
00:49:32,436 --> 00:49:34,876
Speaker 1: and through. I love having the five year plan and

930
00:49:34,916 --> 00:49:37,836
Speaker 1: the ten year plan and mapping it all out by nature.

931
00:49:37,996 --> 00:49:41,316
Speaker 1: That's what I'm like. And I think the series of

932
00:49:41,436 --> 00:49:45,556
Speaker 1: pivots that my life has naturally taken or I've had

933
00:49:45,596 --> 00:49:50,516
Speaker 1: to take in my life has kind of soured me

934
00:49:50,676 --> 00:49:55,036
Speaker 1: on that whole way of thinking and has forced me

935
00:49:55,116 --> 00:49:59,156
Speaker 1: to kind of think more about now than what's coming,

936
00:49:59,916 --> 00:50:01,556
Speaker 1: which is a really hard thing for my brain to

937
00:50:01,556 --> 00:50:04,076
Speaker 1: orient around itself because my brain loves living in the future.

938
00:50:04,596 --> 00:50:07,436
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to like be on that whole

939
00:50:07,436 --> 00:50:09,716
Speaker 1: present mindedness movement. I don't met it. I don't do

940
00:50:09,756 --> 00:50:11,476
Speaker 1: any of that stuff that I should be doing. But

941
00:50:11,556 --> 00:50:13,596
Speaker 1: what I mean is, you know, I thought it was

942
00:50:13,596 --> 00:50:16,476
Speaker 1: going to be a violinist, lost the violin I thought

943
00:50:16,476 --> 00:50:18,756
Speaker 1: it was going to be an academic, decided not going

944
00:50:18,796 --> 00:50:22,836
Speaker 1: to be an academic. Finally land in a place that

945
00:50:22,916 --> 00:50:26,076
Speaker 1: I love working in, which is the White House and

946
00:50:26,116 --> 00:50:28,876
Speaker 1: in the federal government, and I'm like mapping out my

947
00:50:29,076 --> 00:50:30,796
Speaker 1: you know, just on four years in Obama map and

948
00:50:30,796 --> 00:50:33,756
Speaker 1: out my eight year plan with Hillary that doesn't happen,

949
00:50:34,916 --> 00:50:41,596
Speaker 1: And so I have kind of learned to stop having

950
00:50:41,716 --> 00:50:46,116
Speaker 1: so many plans, like so many long term goals, and

951
00:50:46,196 --> 00:50:49,116
Speaker 1: so I can honestly say at this moment that I

952
00:50:49,196 --> 00:50:54,036
Speaker 1: don't actually have quote ambitions for the future, which is

953
00:50:54,076 --> 00:50:55,996
Speaker 1: such a weird thing to say, because my you know,

954
00:50:55,996 --> 00:50:57,396
Speaker 1: when you look at me as a kid, I had

955
00:50:57,676 --> 00:50:59,356
Speaker 1: so many ambitions for the future. I want to play

956
00:50:59,396 --> 00:51:01,316
Speaker 1: with every orchestra in the world. I want to win

957
00:51:01,396 --> 00:51:03,476
Speaker 1: every competition that ever existed. I want to be a

958
00:51:03,516 --> 00:51:06,636
Speaker 1: pro all this stuff. Like I was just brimming with

959
00:51:07,476 --> 00:51:14,436
Speaker 1: tangible representations of you know, accomplishment and success right in

960
00:51:14,716 --> 00:51:17,436
Speaker 1: this space I was in. And I guess again, I

961
00:51:17,436 --> 00:51:19,476
Speaker 1: don't know if this is just a self protective mechanism,

962
00:51:19,476 --> 00:51:23,116
Speaker 1: but I just don't have those same goals anymore. And

963
00:51:23,116 --> 00:51:24,956
Speaker 1: maybe it's also that I'm a more grateful person than

964
00:51:24,996 --> 00:51:28,076
Speaker 1: I used to be, Like I feel more gratitude, and

965
00:51:28,116 --> 00:51:30,876
Speaker 1: so part of my orientation now is well, how lucky

966
00:51:30,876 --> 00:51:33,636
Speaker 1: am I that I even stumbled upon something like there

967
00:51:33,716 --> 00:51:36,716
Speaker 1: was a moment Max, I'm just remembering like two years ago,

968
00:51:37,356 --> 00:51:39,396
Speaker 1: maybe three years ago, where I was walking with my husband.

969
00:51:39,436 --> 00:51:43,116
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't have hobbies like I need.

970
00:51:43,556 --> 00:51:46,956
Speaker 1: I need to fill my free time with something that

971
00:51:47,116 --> 00:51:50,796
Speaker 1: is like really fun and meaningful. And literally Jimmy was like,

972
00:51:51,316 --> 00:51:54,116
Speaker 1: maybe you can start up playing bridge, like maybe we

973
00:51:54,116 --> 00:51:56,276
Speaker 1: can get you into video games, and I was like,

974
00:51:56,316 --> 00:51:59,076
Speaker 1: all these things sound horrible to me. And so I

975
00:51:59,116 --> 00:52:00,756
Speaker 1: knew that I was trying to fill some void, and

976
00:52:00,796 --> 00:52:02,756
Speaker 1: so part of me is also just feeling gratitude, like

977
00:52:02,756 --> 00:52:06,916
Speaker 1: I can't believe I stumbled upon something in podcasting that

978
00:52:07,076 --> 00:52:10,996
Speaker 1: feels that void through and through and has just enriched

979
00:52:11,036 --> 00:52:13,676
Speaker 1: my life so much. But I just don't have a

980
00:52:14,356 --> 00:52:17,396
Speaker 1: I don't have a five year plan that seems really healthy.

981
00:52:18,516 --> 00:52:21,476
Speaker 1: I don't know. Sometimes it's a little destabilizing, like oh no,

982
00:52:21,756 --> 00:52:23,956
Speaker 1: what's going to come next? I don't know. I think

983
00:52:23,996 --> 00:52:28,756
Speaker 1: a little destabilization is healthy. That's probably true. And I

984
00:52:28,796 --> 00:52:32,436
Speaker 1: will say, and this feels so wonderful to say, it's

985
00:52:33,196 --> 00:52:34,636
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we spend a lot of time in

986
00:52:34,636 --> 00:52:36,996
Speaker 1: our future because we're not satisfied with the present, right,

987
00:52:37,036 --> 00:52:38,796
Speaker 1: and so it's kind of like where we go to dream.

988
00:52:40,356 --> 00:52:44,276
Speaker 1: I'm actually legitimately living my dream through a slight change

989
00:52:44,276 --> 00:52:47,676
Speaker 1: of plans, and I didn't expect that, so I don't

990
00:52:47,716 --> 00:52:49,356
Speaker 1: want to move into the future. I would love to

991
00:52:49,396 --> 00:52:51,956
Speaker 1: stay in this current moment for as long as it'll

992
00:52:52,036 --> 00:52:57,876
Speaker 1: let me. That's incredible and I can't wait to see

993
00:52:57,876 --> 00:53:01,476
Speaker 1: what you do next. Oh gosh, Max put it so

994
00:53:01,556 --> 00:53:05,916
Speaker 1: much fresher on me. I'm just teasing Maya. Thank you

995
00:53:05,916 --> 00:53:10,116
Speaker 1: for doing this. Oh thanks for having me. Max, always

996
00:53:10,116 --> 00:53:17,396
Speaker 1: a pleasure to chat with you. Thanks for listening to

997
00:53:17,476 --> 00:53:19,756
Speaker 1: Long for Him. I'm Maxinsky. My co host Sir Aaron

998
00:53:19,796 --> 00:53:23,356
Speaker 1: Lamer and Evan Ratliffe. Our editor this week was Gabriella Saldivia.

999
00:53:23,476 --> 00:53:26,076
Speaker 1: Thanks to her, thanks to Noel Mateer, who did the

1000
00:53:26,076 --> 00:53:29,556
Speaker 1: show notes, thanks to Vox, with whom we make this show,

1001
00:53:30,036 --> 00:53:32,796
Speaker 1: and thanks so much to Maya. Her show is called

1002
00:53:32,916 --> 00:53:35,476
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans. You can listen to it

1003
00:53:35,716 --> 00:53:38,196
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to this show, which we'll be back

1004
00:53:38,196 --> 00:53:38,636
Speaker 1: next week.