1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph 2 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: Channel one two. I don't know about you, but I 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: got hooked on subway sandwiches because of Jared Fogel, because 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: he would do all the ads where he weighed like 5 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: almost three hundred pounds and then he did a self 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: imposed diet of just eating subway sandwiches, the healthy ones 7 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: and lost down to his goal weight. And so many 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: people across the country thought, wow, if he can do 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: that eating subway, so can I. Yeah. Well, he was convicted, 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: convicted for freaky, freaky attempts at having sex with children, 11 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: distribution of child pornography, and actually having sex with miners. 12 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: And in the last hours we learned Jared Fogel, former 13 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: subway pitch guy extraordinaire, it's actually seeking release from federal prison. 14 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: I mean, he's busted dead and the water. Now hold 15 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: this image. Every Christmas, I take the Twins ice skating 16 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: in New York City, Okay, at Rockfeller Center. And then 17 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: where do we go the plaza in the hopes of 18 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: seeing Eloise, Right, remember Eloise who lives at the top 19 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: of the plaza with her nanny, and we go have 20 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: Eloise t all right, how did I know Jared Fogel 21 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: is up slung up in the plaza having sex with 22 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: a minor while I'm downstairs with Lucy and John David 23 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: having Eloise t Believe you me, I want justice. It'll 24 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: be over my cold dead body that Jared Fogel gets 25 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: released early from a role prison. If you don't believe me, 26 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: listen to Bogel himself. You must go crazy with your 27 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: travels because you get to go and tell the different schools, 28 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: you know, things like that. Give me, don't I want 29 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: you to? I mean, I'm sure you have a lot 30 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: of stories. I want you to tell me some of 31 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: them saw that I don't know. It's just I like 32 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: to appreciately. I'm in the middle school that I love 33 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: the middle school, you know, yeah, because you know how 34 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: much I love you know, m hmm, Okay, well, you 35 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: know kids are maturing faster nowadays. I don't know what 36 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: I love. And that's why I think it's wonderful of view, 37 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: is that you're able to get in early. You know, 38 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: I mean you could totally you know, you totally went 39 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: him over, which is what I love. You like that 40 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: I do love up. Tell me? How will you tell me? 41 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: How to do that, you know, just talk to them, 42 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: just get to no one, just everything and just you know, 43 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: do a little touchy feelings things with them. You now 44 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: make no good and it's a little more touchy feeling, 45 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 1: a little more touchy feeling, a little more touchy feeling 46 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: and that's that kind of stuff. Yeah mm hmm, okay, 47 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: I mean that would be amazing. What what what ages 48 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: seems to be the easiest, you know, I don't know 49 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: how I feel like, you know, early middle school applying 50 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: one of the best. You know, they don't have to 51 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: come I going mm hmm. I can see you a 52 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: young you know, six seventh grade? Are you know this? 53 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: And they're up there? You right with that? You need 54 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: to find out how if they'd be all right with that? 55 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: I know who we are without they're very much into 56 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: exploring and you know this, mat don't get the money side, 57 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, and that song confess that. I'm just curious. 58 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how to how to do that. Just 59 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: be friendly to them, Yeah, just do you normally would 60 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: do maybe a year so from me anyway, m hm. 61 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: You know, now we need to sort of go from 62 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: there and the intail case by case, you know, there's 63 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: no there's no right way, wrong way, whatever, you know. 64 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: I actually feel nauseous hearing that, Cheryl McCollum, m Cold 65 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: Case Research Institute Director. I have tried a lot of 66 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: child molestation cases, but typically they defendant did not take 67 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: the stand because they knew I would chew them a 68 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: new tail hole on cross examination. So it's very rare 69 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: you actually actually get to hear the purv speaking. That 70 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: was tapes played on My friend Dr Fields show. They 71 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: were tapes obtained by Rochelle Herman Walrond, a woman who 72 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: befriended Jared Fogel and then took these secret tapes. So Cheryl, 73 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: we are hearing him and his unfiltered state talking about 74 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,679 Speaker 1: how he likes little middle school girls. That's like fourth 75 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: grade girls, stancy. The fear is when this person is released, 76 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: their sexual attraction is the same. And that is what 77 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: people in power do not understand. If you are attracted 78 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: to pick gray girls, that does not go away. If 79 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: you are attracted to five year old boys, that does 80 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: not go away any more than whatever your sexual attraction is. 81 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: If you think Halle Barry is sexy, she's gonna be sexy. 82 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: Whether you go to counseling or not to you. This 83 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: is a large problem where people say, oh, sending the counseling, 84 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: gending the prison, then they'll learn their lessons. No, if 85 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: I see a commercial with Matthew McConaughey, that man is 86 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: fine a tale, Nancy. There ain't no amount of counselors. 87 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: Don't change my mind about that. Believe it. So, if 88 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: you've got somebody then is telling you straight up, I 89 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: like middle school girls. Keep his ask in prison. Eloquently spoken, 90 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: Cheryl eloquently spoke with me from heavy dot com. Is 91 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: investigative reporter Jennifer Zakowski. Jennifer, you're awesome and so is 92 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: your website. What is this business about Jared Fogel getting 93 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: out of prison? He just got put in prison for 94 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: Pete's sake, Yes he did, and you know, part of 95 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: me thinks he just being in the spotlight. And you know, 96 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: according to Routers, he is trying to be released from 97 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: the federal prison. He's staying that in Colorado, he's claiming 98 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: his guilty plea in the child pornography case was based 99 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: on an illegal conspiracy charge and should be thrown out. 100 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: So he's actually claiming that he wouldn't have pleaded guilty 101 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: except for the improper charge, and said being imprisoned is 102 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: violating his due process under the United States Constitution. And 103 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: you know, the reason he's saying it was unlawful is 104 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: because it included a charge of conspiracy, which he's saying 105 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: is not covered by the text of a federal law 106 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: concerning sexual misconduct involving miners. And and there's really two 107 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: parts to this, because TMZ is reporting that he's suing 108 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: the judge and the prosecutors in the child pornography case 109 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: for fifty seven million dollars. And they're saying, rather than 110 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: trying to get out of prison, his focus is on 111 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: a financial legal gain over the justice system department employees 112 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: who put them away. WHOA So let me understand this. Uh? 113 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: Did I did I hear this correctly? To Sheryl McCollum. 114 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: Did Jennifer Sigowski from heavy dot com just say that 115 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: Jared Fogel is actually suing the prosecutors? Is that right? 116 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: For fifty seven millions, not sixty, not fifty five, fifty 117 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: seven millions. That's an odd number, just like his odd 118 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: sexual behaker. Hang on, it's not just the prosecutors Jared 119 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: Fogel is also naming u S Attorney General Jeff's Sessions 120 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: in his complaints, saying Sessions failed to correct a clear error, 121 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: and for good measure, vocals blaming President Trump too. You 122 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: know it never failed. Just to amaze me, this guy 123 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: praying on young children and he's busted having them brought 124 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: to his hotel room at the Plaza in New York City, 125 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: and and the lord only knows where else so he 126 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: could have sex with children, and now he's suing. You 127 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: heard me, right? Dr Chloe Carmichael, new York psychologist, founder 128 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: of Anxiety tools dot com. Dr Chloe, I agree with 129 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, but my knowledge of this is anecdotal. I'm 130 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: not a doctor, I'm not a shrink. I'm a j D, 131 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: not an m D. But every person I've ever seen 132 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: that child molested our statutory raped um that was an adult. 133 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: I mean, there are a few exceptions where seventeen year 134 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: old boy will be with a fifteen year old girl 135 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: and it's construed as child rape. I'm talking about adult 136 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: adults with children. I've never seen an instance where that 137 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: was quote cured. That's a crime, that's pedophilia, that is 138 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: a crime I agree with. Surely you can't go to 139 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 1: jail and get quote cured. Well, Nancy, I can certainly 140 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: see why you would feel that way, And I'm not 141 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: only inclined to agree to agree with you personally, but 142 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: that is actually what the research says as well. So 143 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: podophiles actually very rarely learned to stop being attracted, you know, 144 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: just as what's being said. If you know you you 145 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: are attracted to Matthew but kind of hey, you know, no, uh, 146 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: counseling is going to change that. But what pedophiles do 147 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: learn how to do, UM is how to at least 148 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: control their urges, not act upon their urges. But in 149 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: order for them to learn that, they have to be 150 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: willing to learn UM they have too many pedophiles hate 151 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: themselves and hate their urges and are just at least 152 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: grateful if they can learn how to not act on them. 153 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: Jared doesn't seem to feel that there's anything wrong with 154 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: his urges, so in addition to being a pedophile, UM, 155 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: it's also quite possible that he maybe a psychopath. But 156 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 1: you know, he doesn't seem to have any concern at 157 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: all for how this is affecting you know, anybody else 158 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: and the idea that he thinks he should be released 159 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: from prison and that he can, you know, sue the prosecutors. 160 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: This type of entitlement that he has, combined with his pedosphilia, 161 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: I think it does make him a very poor candidate 162 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: for somebody that would ever really be rehabilitated. He doesn't 163 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: want to be rehability rehabilitated. This is like an alcoholic. 164 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: They have to want to stop drinking. He doesn't want 165 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: to stop. He wants to continue. Back to Jennifer Tsikowski, 166 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: reporter with heavy dot Com, Jennifer. Right now, Jared Fogel, 167 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: former Subway pitchman, is trying to be released from a 168 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: Colorado federal prison. He became famous in two thousand after 169 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: he credited Subway for a huge weight loss. Now, his 170 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: guilty plea was based partially on an illegal conspiracy charge 171 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: that dealt with child pornography, but there were so many 172 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: other counts. There was the actual transferring children across state 173 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: lines to have sex with them in hotels. Uh, he 174 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: pled guilty to having sex with children. I mean, how 175 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: could that be thrown out, Jennifer. That has nothing to 176 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: do with the conspiracy, doesn't No, one would not think so, 177 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: And no, it doesn't make any sense. Like you said, 178 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: he admitted to these charges. He pleaded guilty, So I'm 179 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: not exactly sure. Um. I mean, just like the last 180 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: person said, he doesn't want to control his urges. He 181 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: has this sense of entitlements, and I'm not exactly sure 182 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: how he would think that he could uh get out 183 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: of prison at this point. Well another thing, uh, Cheryl McCullum, 184 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case, frees her institute. This is 185 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: not his first try to get out of jail. Just 186 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: this year, he tried to get out claiming the judge 187 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: in his case was biased because she had teen girls. Okay, 188 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: I'm getting that from the indie star. Well, actually the 189 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: judge had one daughter and she's grown. All in all, 190 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: since he was sentenced, he has filed dozens and dozens 191 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: of motions to either get his sentence reduced or just 192 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: thrown out. So this guy is not giving up. He 193 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: claims that his plea his guilty plea. Let me remind you, 194 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: it's a guilty place now jury trial. He swore under 195 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: oath he was guilty. Okay, so it's not like he 196 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: was wrongly convicted. He stood up and swore he was guilty. 197 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: He's now claiming his plea was unconstitutional. Cheryl, not only 198 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: did he plead guilty. The only thing he's arguing now 199 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: is technicality. He still like saying he didn't do it. 200 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: He hasn't yet said, y'all got the wrong guy. I 201 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: wasn't there, It wasn't me. I wouldn't do it. He said, Yeah, 202 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: I did it. Let me out, so freaking do it again. 203 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: That's all this is about. He walked out. There's a 204 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: ton of people that can watch provoted movie, whether it's 205 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: The Reality or Three Films or whatever, but they don't 206 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: act on it. This man has already acted on it. 207 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: He has passed that threshold of return. He is a 208 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: dangerous predator period. He pled guilty the Subway Sandwich pitch 209 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: Man to federal charges of conspiracy to distribute and receive 210 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: child porn, traveling across state lines to have sex contact 211 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: with a minor. He agreed to pay a hundred thousand 212 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: dollars to each of fourteen unnamed children. Those are the 213 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: ones that we know of, and he's gonna do at 214 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: least fifteen years behind bars. He has been trying every 215 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: which way to get out of jail and he's got 216 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: the money to hire lawyers to do it. That's the problem. 217 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: Dr Chloe Carmichael, New York Psychologists, founder of Anxiety tools 218 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: dot com. Why can't he just serve his time and 219 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: try to improve himself or rehab himself behind bars. All 220 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: he's doing behind bars is trying to say the system 221 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: tricked him. He pled guilty. It wasn't a trial. There 222 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: are no errors at trial. He stood up in court 223 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: under and pled guilty to these charges. So what is 224 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: his mindset? Dr Chloe Well quest Nancy. It's difficult to 225 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: say what his mindset is, but I can you know, 226 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: certainly speculate that he may have seen in our society 227 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: that unfortunately, um you know, many times of perpetrators will 228 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: play the victim card, and he has probably seen that 229 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: card played successfully many times. As you pointed out, it 230 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: seems clear that his goal is simply take it out 231 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: of risen and to get right back to what he 232 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: was doing before. Um So I imagine he's willing to 233 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: avail himself as any strategy that he thinks might more work, 234 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: including becoming vindictive towards you know what. As I always 235 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: used to say, be careful what you ask my dear, 236 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: for you will surely get it now, Oscar Wild said 237 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: at first, but it applies here. You know what, go 238 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: on and back out of that guilty plea, Vogel. Let's 239 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: get all of your child sex victims up on this stand. 240 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: Let's play all your perverted tapes in front of a jury. 241 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: You got fifteen years on a plea. Let's see what 242 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: you get that way, Fogel. We received dispatch a vehicle 243 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: over the side of three other children are missing but 244 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: are presumed dead. They portray this happy little family. Their 245 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: daughters tonging is please, please, please, begging is not to 246 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: make go back, and that they are abusing her. None 247 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: of that lines up with the people that we all knew. 248 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: It's really hard to imagine. CPS got an anonymous call. 249 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: Depany's say CPS had already sent a case worker two 250 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: the house twice before to check on the family without 251 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: getting anyone to come to the door. And now to California, 252 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: where an entire family seemingly plunges off a cliff, killing 253 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: the whole family, including the parents. But now an alarming 254 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: series of complaints, including child mistreatment, horrible horrible claims about 255 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: how these children were treated in life and Bremner joining 256 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: us high profile lawyer out of the Seattle jurisdiction. And Bremner, 257 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. What can you tell us 258 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 1: about the crash? The car looked like it fully accelerated 259 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: off the cliff. Really, I'm near sound of Barbara and 260 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: the same sex couple, Sarah and Jennifer Hart were in 261 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: the front, and then there were three kids in the back. 262 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: The parents were restrained, but the kids were not. And 263 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: so you found they only found the three kids deceased 264 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: in their parents near the vehicle, thrown from the vehicle, etcetera. 265 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: But then they found one more child. In subsequent days, 266 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: two more missing. There's been some speculation that one of 267 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: the children may have been deceased before the crash, but 268 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 1: that's pure speculation. And my stars, wait a minute, I 269 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 1: know the authorities have found the body of the parents, 270 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: Sarah and Jennifer Hart, and three of their adopted children, Marcus, Jeremiah, 271 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: and Abigail. Now there were three other children, Hannah, Sierra 272 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: and Davante. The three of them were missing. But Saturday 273 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: a body was pulled out of the surf and that 274 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: was most likely one of the children. Now the Mendocino 275 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Office say a couple was vacationing along the 276 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: coast and a body that was pulled out of the 277 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: water by third bystander. Take a listen to the Mendocino 278 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: County Sheriff Greg van Patten. On March and approximately fifteen 279 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: thirty eight hours, we received dispatch nine calls of a 280 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: vehicle over the side in a remote section of Highway 281 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: one south of San Juan Creek. Was an obvious fatality 282 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: situation as there were three um victims outside of the vehicle. 283 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: Further examination of the scene revealed two adults victims inside 284 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: of the vehicle and three juvenile victims outside of vehicle. 285 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: The next day, through follow up investigation, we learned that 286 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 1: there were possibly three additional um outstanding juveniles that had 287 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: not been located, that were either with the vehicle or 288 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: possibly with family members. Vante we believe was in the 289 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: vehicle her um. We have not recovered any in his 290 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: body and to up you know, I'm looking at photos 291 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: right now of the two parents, Sarah and Jennifer Hart, 292 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: and their adopted children. I don't know how one family 293 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: is allowed to adopt so many children. It's hard enough 294 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: for me to take care of two of them, but 295 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: this many children, and then we find out there were 296 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: nine one one calls because the children were being mistreated 297 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: before the car plunges over the cliff. Take a listen 298 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: to this nine one one call. Yeah, there's some kids 299 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: that I feel as being highly abused and I can 300 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: in Woodland, Washington. What's the address? Okay, I'm gonna go 301 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: to the address of my daughter's cause because it's right 302 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: in next doore. And what's playing on there, Well, they 303 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: have four black children with that part doesn't matter. They're 304 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: they're new here in Texas. But the other night a 305 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 1: little girls jump out of the second story window on 306 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: the roof and then down onto the ground and ran 307 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: to my daughter. And this is like two in the morning, 308 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: begging them to help her, to help her. When did 309 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: that happen? Um, about three or four nights ago, Okay, 310 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: And my son in law doesn't want to get involved. 311 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: But the more I sit on it, I just can't 312 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: live with it. Somebody's got to go there and check it. 313 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: And you know how old less the little kid that 314 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: did that that Ranny Gotta's house, about twelve years old, 315 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: thirteen And when they came looking for her. She was 316 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: begging my daughter not to let them know she was there, 317 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: and then eventually my son in law let them know. 318 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: And then she had all four of the kids come 319 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: back later and to say everything was okay. And they're 320 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: all standing at attention like they were just scared to death. 321 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: And I think there's something very serious going on there. 322 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: And they're here from Texas. The kids might even be kidnapped. Okay. 323 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: And um, so did the girl ever say why she 324 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: was scared? No? She uh, she was crying. And it 325 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: was two in the morning. And my daughter said, the 326 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: biggest problem is she's half awake. She couldn't believe what 327 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: was going on. And okay, and and basically my southern laws, 328 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: like most people, they don't want to get involved, and 329 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: so he was keeping my daughter out of it. But 330 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: since she told me about it, I just can't live 331 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: with it. I'm very concerned for these kids and I 332 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: just can't let this go any longer. Those kids, I 333 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: think is in very serious danger. The nine one one 334 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: call her reporting that the Heart family's child jumped out 335 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: of the house window begging for help. But in the photos, 336 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: the families all smiles and they looked like a modern family, 337 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: uh with a diverse family to moms six adopted children, 338 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: that's a family of eight. Their arms and the photos 339 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: are all wrapped around each other and um, free hugs, 340 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: love is beautiful, holding signs like that. But the nine 341 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: one one call belies all of that. Neighbors describing very 342 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: disturbing encounters with the children crying for help and asking 343 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: for food. It gets ends up in a report to 344 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: Child Protective Services just before the families suv plunges off 345 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: a cliff. Listen to this nine one one call? Help 346 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: you guess investigator that needs a well child check? Who 347 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: are we checking on? So we have the mothers are 348 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: Sarah and Jennifer Hart okay, and according to my intakes, 349 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: they have six children in the home for the home 350 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: Monday and Friday. I knocked on the door just this 351 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: morning and no one I can get in a response. 352 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: Different cars have been moving in and out. I know 353 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: there's so I feel like someone fair And what was 354 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: the reason why you're checking out consents that the children 355 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: aren't being fed? So, Ashley Wilcot, you're the expert in 356 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: child welfare. What happened? This is why I love your 357 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: show because you helped the public understand. Number one, it 358 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: doesn't matter what people look like, what they pretend to be, 359 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: how they appear to be, they can be abusive to 360 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: their children. And not only did these children one of 361 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: them jump out the window and go to the neighbor, 362 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: they did it repeatedly. So it was not one time, 363 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: it was multiple times. So clearly there are lots of 364 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: red flags in this case. System fail. You know, they 365 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: had these adopted children for six months before they were 366 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: allowed to adopt them. They're multiple reports of bruises on 367 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: different children, children going to neighbors, were hungry. This is 368 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: what they're doing to us. All kinds of red flags 369 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: in this case, regardless of their appearance and the front 370 00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: that they put on to act like they were good. 371 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: I mean, and Ashley Willcott, you're familiar with my children's 372 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: school and in the mornings when I take them personally 373 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: to make and watch them walk in the door, because 374 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: I still remember Kylin Hormon, I go through and if 375 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: it's chilly outside and I see children and short pants 376 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: and no leggings, I'm like, what what are their parents thinking? 377 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: You know, And I'm inside, you know, judging these children 378 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: are climbing out of their windows begging neighbors for food. 379 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just once. This guy that describes that 380 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: encounter live next door to the Hearts, and it wasn't 381 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: to a m when the child crawls out a window 382 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: of the house to beg for food. He says. It 383 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: was one of at least four times where the children 384 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: appear to have told adults about their troubles in the home. 385 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: Nothing happened, So why didn't authorities go investigate? Take a 386 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: listen to Clark County Shriff Sergeant Brent Widel responding to 387 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: the residents. Um, coming down the prior position of the call, 388 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: and this call is the distance out. It's by a 389 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: third party. Um, you know of something that they have 390 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: no firstkind knowledge of. I'm not sure we failed the children. Again, 391 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: we handle a lot of these types of calls. Why 392 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: why didn't anything happen? Ashley? I'm not finding you Ashley. 393 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: That don't get me wrong, But you have the familiarity 394 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: with the child welfare system. Well what happened? Why were 395 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: they allowed to adopt six children to start with? Well 396 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: that I don't know. That begs the question. And we 397 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: can talk again about system fail because we see those, 398 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 1: regrettably with a system completely fails to protect children. But 399 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 1: put that aside. Here's what people need to realize. Do 400 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: you know the neighbor state very clearly the first time 401 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: this happened in the middle of the night, too am 402 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: like you point out, this neighbor sent the child back home. 403 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: Why because of the appearance of the parents, because they're 404 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: putting on a good front. Well, they look like they're okay, 405 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: and I think it's okay. I'm just gonna send the 406 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 1: child back. Here's what I'm here to say, as an expert, 407 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: as a judge, do not do not, under any circumstances 408 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: when a child makes those kinds of disclosures, send them back. 409 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to get involved in people's lives and they think, oh, 410 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: it's fine, we'll send the child back to the parents. No, 411 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: the state agents. She should have been called at that moment, 412 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: and it was multiple times later before anybody reported what 413 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: was going on. And listen to this, Dr Bethany Marshall. 414 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 1: Then I'll go to ambrem Or Vincent Hill. I want 415 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: to hear your take portray this happy little family and 416 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: yet you know the night before their daughters tynging as 417 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: please please please, begging is not to make her go back, 418 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: and that they are abusing her. And then Davante coming 419 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: your hair and telling us that you know he's being 420 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: starved to death. And this is what the neighbor says. 421 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: The other night, a little girl jumped out of the 422 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: second story window onto the roof, then down to the ground, 423 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: ran to my daughter, this is two in the morning, 424 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: begging them to help her. That the girl cried and 425 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: begged the daughter not to let her parents know she 426 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: was there. Then one of the parents came over, and 427 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: then all four of the children came back later to 428 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: say everything's okay. And all the children when they came 429 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: back to the neighbor were standing at attention like they 430 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: were scared. They all stood at attention to report now 431 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: everything's fine, and then they marched home. I mean, Dr Bethany, 432 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: that's terrible. This story completely breaks my heart. And you 433 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: know underneath this the nearer of civility and sophistication that 434 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: the parents had. I would think that the underlying psychopathology 435 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: or disturbance of the parents is to gather more and 436 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: more children like objects so that they can feel important 437 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: and nurturing, but deep down harboring hatred and resentment towards 438 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: the children for having needs. This is the central problem 439 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: with child abuse that I see again and again is 440 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: that the adult resents the needs of the child to 441 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: the point I heard in my office once a parent 442 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: putting padlocking the refrigerator because the parents felt the child 443 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 1: was greedy and preoccupatients who parents, patients in my practice 444 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: who become preoccupied with the child being bad because the 445 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: child wants so much. And you know, to peggyback on On, 446 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: Ashley was saying, you know, child abuse is notoriously underreported 447 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: because witnesses of child abuse they doubt themselves. They feel 448 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: the they're interfering, they feel that the child is being traumatic. 449 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: They are afraid that they're going to tear a family 450 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: apart when nothing bad is going on. And the public 451 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: needs to know they don't need to verify child abuse. 452 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: They need to report suspicion of child abuse. There's a 453 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: big difference. The public is not required to verify it, 454 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: They're just required to report what they see. So the 455 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: public needs to be emboldened in these kinds of situations. 456 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: Listen to this. This nearly breaks my heart. The parents 457 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: Jennifer and Sarah Hart, six year old little girl told, hey, 458 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: this is when they were in Minnesota. They moved over 459 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: and over and over again, which is another sign something's 460 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: very wrong. The little six year all tells a Minnesota 461 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: public school teacher that she had quote Alley's on her 462 00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: tummy and back after her mother hit her with her fists, 463 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: leaving bruises. The teacher rightly alerts social services and police, 464 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: who wants a criminal investigation. Six months later, one of 465 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 1: the two moms, Sarah Hart, pleads guilty to assault and 466 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: gets probation. A week later, all six of their adopted 467 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: children are pulled out of public school and go to 468 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: home school setting. They never returned to public school. The 469 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 1: family moves, then moves again. Neighbors lodge new claims of 470 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: mistreating the children. Then, just two weeks ago, as child 471 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: protection workers now in Washington are trying to contact the Hearts, 472 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: their suv dives off the side of the road and 473 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: kills the parents and at least three children, three others 474 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: still missing. Police now saying this was no accident. The 475 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: Nette's so so, joining US investigative reporter, what do we 476 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: know now and the Nette what led them to think 477 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: this is no accident? One of the reasons is because 478 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: there are no skid marks at the location, in other words, 479 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: no attempt to break as the vehicle plunges off. Also, 480 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: the a dometer was measured at about ninety miles per hour. Now, 481 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: whether it was traveling that past is still being investigated, 482 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: but that's where it stuck. So those are two of 483 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: the reasons. Take a listen to California Highlight Patrol chips 484 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: Greg bart culiminary investigation indicates to us that this incident 485 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: may have been an intentional act and not the result 486 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: of a traffic collision. The vehicle was approximately seventy ft 487 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,239 Speaker 1: away from the cliffs edge and the pull out, and 488 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: the last plate break application shows that it was about 489 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: at that location and the pull out, and then after 490 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: that it was um excel a ration all the way 491 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: up to the point where it impacted the uh the 492 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: ocean floor. We have every indication to believe that all 493 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: six children were in there. However, only three bodies have 494 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: been recovered. This will take several weeks for us to 495 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: have a clear understanding as to possibly if there isn't 496 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: a definitive answer what occurred. You know, I want to 497 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: go back Vincent Hill. Very often I would learn so 498 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: much from quote school investigators. A lot of schools have 499 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: somebody in the school UM teachers, principles and other school 500 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: personnel are under the law supposed to report if they 501 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: think there is child mistreatment. For instance, Um, how do 502 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: they show up to school? Do they wear the same 503 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: clothes for two or three days? Are they always hungry? 504 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: Do they eat like they're starved and that's all they're 505 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: gonna get to eat? Do they look like they've had 506 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: a bath? Do they like their hair is calmbed and 507 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: that their teeth are brush or their hands and face clean. 508 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: Do they come in and you can see they haven't 509 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: touched their schoolwork for a couple of days? I mean, 510 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: what's happening in the home? Vincent Hill? The school is 511 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: the second line of defense of children. The home should 512 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: be the first line of defense. What can we as 513 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: ordinary citizens, um, neighbors when you're around children? What do 514 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: you look for? Vincent Hill? What do investigators in school 515 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: settings look for? Nancy? I think you touched on all 516 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: of that. You know, dirty clothes, Do they have a 517 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: foul odor to them? Doesn't look like they haven't? They 518 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: look detatched socially from everyone else. These are all signs 519 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: of abuse that happens in the home. And unfortunately, there 520 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: were so many fields for these children in this case, 521 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: so many on so many levels. You know, one of 522 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: the reasons I'm not a big advocate of schooling is 523 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: because the kids cannot show those signs to someone else. 524 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: So I prefer a child to being a public school 525 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: or maybe a chartered private school. But at least they're 526 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: around under individuals that can pick up these signs that 527 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: these kids, I'm sure we're showing, and a lot of 528 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: people just ignored, Like I go back to the neighbor who, 529 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, the parents came over, Oh, it looks fine. 530 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,359 Speaker 1: You know, maybe the neighbor thought, oh, well, the kids 531 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: being dramatic, or well the parents here, they look normal. 532 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: But to that, I say, Jeffrey Dahmer looked normal, but 533 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: he was chopping people and eating them. So and now 534 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: we hear one of the little boys. Aunt the little 535 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: boy DeVante heart. She says, it's just devastating. And this 536 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: isn't Aunt Devant's who fought for custody celesting. It's a 537 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: late night call from a lawyer who once helped her 538 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 1: fight to get custody of the children. Three of them, Dante, 539 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: DeVante and Jeremiah and Sierra, but she didn't get custody, 540 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: and now she learns the two moms that adopted them, 541 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: to make a total of six adopted children, have dived 542 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: off the side of a cliff. Jeremiah's body found among 543 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 1: the wreckage at the bottom of a one hundred foot cliff. Oh, 544 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: DeVante and Sierra are still missing. They're presumed dead. Now 545 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 1: we're questioning to Jennifer Hart, one of the two moms 546 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: intentionally speed out of a pullout overlooking Pacific Highway along 547 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: Highway one and kill all her children. And Bremner, you're there, 548 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: what what is the word locally? Well, it's all like 549 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: I said before you, Nancy, that this is all over 550 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: the Seattle Times, you know, all the time, and on 551 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: day there was a very long article about this. They 552 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: were in Woodland, Washington, which is a small town's southern 553 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: Washington near Oregon Oregon border, and people here are just 554 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: outraged about a course, as everybody is. But they were 555 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: looked at in Oregon by the authorities, but those records 556 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: are sealed or confidential, so we don't know what those 557 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: complaints were, but we know what the complaints were in 558 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: Washington State and that they up and left immediately once 559 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: child welfare folks came and knocked on their door and 560 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: left a card. You know, they went to California, and 561 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: this horrible tragedy you know, ensued. Sounds like an intentional crime. 562 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: One thing I wanted to point out on Child Protective 563 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: Services is, you know, I think we really have to 564 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: have an awareness life. We've just been talking about about 565 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,240 Speaker 1: what to look for in kids. I agree on the 566 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: homeschooling issue. Remember Nancy, you helped us so much in 567 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: the Susan cox Pal case here in Washington State, and 568 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: josh Pal, who killed his wife Susan, had his kids 569 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: for visitation and there was CPS involved purportedly throughout that piece, 570 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: and josh Pal ended up setting the house on fire, 571 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: blowing it up, and killing the kids with a hatchet. 572 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: Two little boys, Susan's two little boys. And I look 573 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: at that case and I think we need to say 574 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: that we have zero tolerance for child abuse, and the 575 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: best interests of the children should be the paramount concern, 576 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: not reunification of families, not making sure that everything you 577 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 1: know that looks okay seems okay can be held is okay, 578 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: but you know that the whole idea here, you know, 579 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: with these with these neighbors, and it was pretty rural, 580 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: but it wasn't just kids coming over or at least 581 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: one or two saying we're hungry, we need food, but 582 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: also saying, can you put food in a box at 583 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: the fence at our house like every day so we 584 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: can have food. I mean, that's so alarming, you know, 585 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: to come at one thirty or two in the morning 586 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: and knocking at their door because of this. And these 587 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: were two sets, three from one mother or family and 588 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: three from another. And we just had an article today 589 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: in Seattle Times about another child who had been in 590 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: their care for a period of time at fifteen and 591 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: the way that relationship quote unquote ended was she was 592 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,320 Speaker 1: sent to a third party and they said, your mother's 593 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: don't aren't going to keep you anymore because they're adopting 594 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: more children. There were no goodbye, there was no explanation, 595 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: and she went off to another home. Oh my stars, 596 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: how that's emotionally devastating. And you know, I'm just thinking 597 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: I'm listening to im Bremner uh also reporting on it, 598 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: as she Willcott, founder of child crime watch dot com, 599 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: I mean, when my children come home, when I see 600 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: they haven't eaten their snacks I packed for them. Well, 601 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: number one, John David doesn't need to eat a snack, 602 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: but I give him three. He's a big horse, and 603 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: I tell him that, I like, you, big horse, eat okay, 604 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 1: or don't eat, whatever the case might be. But I'm like, 605 00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: why didn't you eat your snacks? People? They're yummy, let's eat. 606 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: Come on, I mean, and these children are asking for 607 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: the neighbors to put food in a box in the fence. 608 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: And the whole time, Ashley, you've got a blood relative. 609 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: I'm Celestine, a paternal aunt, no criminal record, had raised 610 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: a daughter of your own, had a steady job as 611 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: a hospital clark in Houston. The children would come stay 612 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: with her, okay often, and they would not let her 613 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: have the children. So they instead they give them to 614 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: these two moms that are gonna have now six children. 615 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: I mean, DeVante and his sisters have yet to be found. 616 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: The wreck is discovered by a pastor by we know 617 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: that another body was fished out of the water. Did 618 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:46,240 Speaker 1: these two moms intentionally the Thelma and Louise and drive 619 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: their whole family over the cliff Ashley Willcott child Crime 620 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: watch dot com way in. Here's what bothers me, Nancy, 621 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: and I see this time and time again, regrettably, is 622 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: children that are in the city, some of foster care, 623 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: are allowed to be adopted by families and they they 624 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: it's as if the agency decides these people are going 625 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: to adopt and then they are hands off. They do 626 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: not double check, They do not check on the welfare 627 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: of the children. They do not advocate for the best 628 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: interests of the children. They say, oh good, adopt a poem. 629 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: Check next. And that's what happened in this case, and 630 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: that's why these children are failed. Dr Bethany Marshalls psychoanalysts 631 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: out of l A. Driving your children over a cliff, Nancy, 632 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: it is so hard to comprehend, but I think I 633 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,479 Speaker 1: have a pretty good idea of what might have led 634 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: to that. So what you see in these really pathological 635 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: households where there's so much child abuse, there's one of 636 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,919 Speaker 1: two scenarios. One is that you have one parent who 637 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: loves the children, and the other parent who has simmering 638 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: resentment and hatred and envy and jealousy towards the children 639 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: and wants to kill the children in order to get 640 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: back at the other parent. And if that were the case, 641 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 1: that would probably the be the person who is driving 642 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,879 Speaker 1: the car um using the children like ponds, killing them 643 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: to get back at our partner. The other would be 644 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 1: that you have a child abusing parent who becomes quite 645 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: paranoid and resentful towards the children and then draws the 646 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: other parent into a paranoid stance towards the children. And 647 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: you have two moms who are very disregulated in their 648 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: hatred towards each other, like a lot of fighting, a 649 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,919 Speaker 1: lot of screaming, a lot of yelling, and they're so 650 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: unable to regulate their negative affects or emotions that they 651 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: actually have to fly over a cliff, pick a fight, um, 652 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: step on the gas, do something to just let the 653 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,839 Speaker 1: steam off of all those disregulated emotions without having a 654 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: big picture conception that they're actually putting an end to 655 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,320 Speaker 1: the entire family. Do you think people sometimes adopt children 656 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 1: to fix their relationship. Oh, absolutely, to fix their relationship 657 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,959 Speaker 1: to or if they hate each other, they'd rather they'd 658 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: rather direct the hatred towards the children than towards each other. 659 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: They will adopt children to punish the children because they 660 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 1: don't want to express anger towards each other. In the 661 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,000 Speaker 1: marital diet, children are made use of in all kinds 662 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,240 Speaker 1: of ways. They're they're at the mercy of the adults 663 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: in their lives. Yeah, they have such an clear record 664 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: of eraticism. We're talking about Sarah and Jennifer Hart who 665 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: drive off a cliff with their children, all their children. 666 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,359 Speaker 1: There's six adopted children in all killing. As of right now, 667 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: we don't even know how many were in the car. 668 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: They began fostering children all the way back in the 669 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 1: mid two thousand's, according to friends that knew them in Minnesota, 670 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: where the two women lived before they moved to the 671 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:08,279 Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest. The Minnesota Department of Human Services confirmed they 672 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: had a foster care license for two years starting in 673 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: two thousand and five. Then they were just in their 674 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,720 Speaker 1: mid twenties, right out of college, and their friends remember 675 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: them talking about fostering children, and they seem like they 676 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: wanted to help. But something went horribly sideways, because it 677 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: went from trying to help to claims they deprived their 678 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: children of food, spanking them so hard that they get 679 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: convicted for it. Reporting by neighbors. The family lived an 680 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:49,840 Speaker 1: isolated life outside of rallies, political rallies, and music festivals. 681 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:57,920 Speaker 1: They would attend what went wrong, you know, to unravel 682 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 1: that to this to investigative report, Nanette Sosa, it seems 683 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: to me that of course the two moms are responsible, 684 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: but also how did the system lose track of them? 685 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: How did they go from Minnesota, Toto, Texas, to Pacific 686 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: Northwest and everywhere there are claims by neighbors to police, 687 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,080 Speaker 1: to schools, and yet they keep getting away with it. Nanette. 688 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: One of the situations with this, and it looks like 689 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: mixed messages, is the fact that states do not have 690 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: to report to utter states about alleged abuse, etcetera. So 691 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,839 Speaker 1: what happened in Washington, Oregon wouldn't know, what happened in Minnesota, 692 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: Washington wouldn't know. So that's a little bit of a 693 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:50,279 Speaker 1: disconnect right there, when states, in their CPS systems and 694 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: so forth, just don't know. Also, this family, Jennifer and Sarah, 695 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 1: they received about two hundred and seventy thousand dollars over 696 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 1: ten years for the adopted children who they acquired in 697 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: two thousand six the first set and then in two 698 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 1: thousand nine the second set. So that's pretty much five 699 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,560 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year per child that they were receiving. 700 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: Is that enough really to raise a children on? I 701 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,840 Speaker 1: know it sounds like a lot, maybe two seventy. But 702 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: when it comes down to finances and at the end 703 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,759 Speaker 1: of the day, maybe there was a financial issue going 704 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,319 Speaker 1: on that might be something that needs to be reviewed 705 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: for this family. Could they afford to feed six mouths? 706 00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 1: Could they put it together? I understand that they did 707 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: buy the house in Washington, but or finances maybe a 708 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: little bit behind us. When you have Hannah who jumps 709 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: out of the second story window and runs to the 710 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: neighbor's house, and then the neighbors say that this is 711 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,319 Speaker 1: a teenager who looks like she's seven years old and 712 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 1: is missing her front teeth. How is that not a 713 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 1: sign of abuse that that's going on? How is that miss? 714 00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: An autopsy now scheduled for another body a found in 715 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: northern California where the suv of this couple plunges off 716 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: the cliff, killing at least five members of the family. 717 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: It's gonna be weeks to determine whether it is the 718 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: body and one of the three children still missing. Lengthy 719 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:21,239 Speaker 1: DNA analysis may be needed to identify it. That's how 720 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,360 Speaker 1: badly it's decomposed. Nancy. We've learned that preliminary toxicology tests 721 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: show that Jennifer Hart was drunk when their suv plunged 722 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,360 Speaker 1: off a California cliff, and that her wife, Sarah, and 723 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: the children had a drug in their system that can 724 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: cause drowsiness. California Highway Patrol says Jennifer's alcohol level was 725 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: point one oh one point oh eight or more is 726 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 1: considered legally drunk. Also, Nancy, Sarah, and two of the 727 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,360 Speaker 1: children had high amounts of a benadryl like substance in 728 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,320 Speaker 1: their systems, which can cause sleepiness, and the toxicology report 729 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,760 Speaker 1: is still pending on the third child. Oh my stars, 730 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: Nnett Sosa, you know what. It's such a tangled web. 731 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,640 Speaker 1: But there is a long path, a long history of 732 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,439 Speaker 1: mistreatment of these children, and the state keeps giving them 733 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,640 Speaker 1: more and more adopted children, and the claims of mistreatment 734 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,400 Speaker 1: get worse and worse. This is what we know. We 735 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,799 Speaker 1: know that some of the children died, and that horrific 736 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: death plunge by the two mommies. We know there's a 737 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:40,919 Speaker 1: long history of abuse on all of these children. One 738 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:45,720 Speaker 1: after the next, after the next, adopted. We know that 739 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,959 Speaker 1: the two moms were making a lot of money off 740 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: these children from the state. It's all ended in a 741 00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: horrific death of little children. Is anybody going to do 742 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: anything about the welfare system? How many calls? How many neighbors, 743 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,799 Speaker 1: how many teachers, how many relatives, how many police? How 744 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:20,320 Speaker 1: many nine one one calls? Does it take for children 745 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:26,280 Speaker 1: to be saved? You tell me, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, 746 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,