1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians, thank you for tuning in for this 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: week's classic episode. We're going back to Victorian England, I'll 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: just say it, with the benefit of retrospect, a very weird, 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: specific and self contradicting time, oh big. 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 2: Time, as evidenced in our recent episode on flirting, which. 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 3: Was wasn't that Victorian? Yes, Victorian flirting really really very very. 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: Very very interesting. Thanks to our research associate Wren for 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: that one. But this takes us back to April of 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 2: eighteen seventy when a court case OJ Simpson style captivated 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: the people of Victorian England. Fanny and Stella aka Frederick 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 2: Park and Ernest Boulton were arrested after attending a play 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: for their refusal to dress according to their assigned gender. 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: Let us say, and it caused a moral panic, a. 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: Court case that rocked the land entire We can't wait 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: for you to hear this episode if you haven't yet, 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: because you know, these kind of these kinds of moral 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: panics still continue in the modern day, so there's a 18 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: lot we can learn from this one. 19 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: Oh, not to mention all of the crazy stuff going 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: on in Washington right now with you know, trans erasure 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: and just like really horrible revisionist history for a group 22 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: of people who very much exists and very much fought 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: for the right to be treated like human beings. And 24 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: I think this is a great example of a precedent 25 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: setting case. 26 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: So let's roll the tape. 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. We're opening today's 28 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: episode with an excerpt from a letter written on November 29 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: twenty first, around probably eighteen sixty nine. My dearest Arthur, 30 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: how very kind of you to think of me on 31 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: my birthday. I had no idea that you would do, 32 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: so it was very good of you to write, and 33 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: I am really very grateful for it. I require no 34 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: remembrances of my sister's husband, as the many kindnesses he 35 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: has bestowed upon me will make me remember him for 36 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: many a year, and the birthday present he is so 37 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: kind as to promise me, will only be one addition 38 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: to the heap of little favors. I already treasure up 39 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: and we'll cut it there and go to the signature 40 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: and says, believe me, your affectionate sister in law, Fanny 41 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: Winifred Park and Fanny Winniford Park in this letter is 42 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: writing to a fellow named Lord Arthur Clinton. 43 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 2: Ah, that's right, We'll get to the circle back to 44 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 2: this part of the story. Welcome to the Ridiculous History. 45 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah yeah. Who are you? Okay? And 46 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 3: I'm Bet and you are still Ben. 47 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: Yes, and that's what they call me in this part 48 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: of the world. And we are of course joined as 49 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: always with our super producer, Casey Pegram. 50 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 2: What do they call you elsewhere in the world? Ben, 51 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: Do you have a knighthood that we don't know about? 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: Are you a sir or a lord? 53 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if it is something you could pronounce. 54 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: Oh okay, cool, not just you specifically, I mean the 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: human tongue. Yeah, got it. It's kind of weird, but 56 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: you know how it is. You get in situations, you travel, Yeah, 57 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: whichy stuff happens? Yeah, you make deals whatever. Boy, we 58 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: got off the We got off the rails really quickly 59 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: on this one. Shaking my head, shaking his head. 60 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 3: Okay. 61 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: So the Fanny in question who is writing to Lord 62 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: Clinton is someone known as missus Fanny Graham like Graham. 63 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: Cracker, right, that's right. 64 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: And this she is referring to is someone named miss 65 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: Stella Bolton or occasionally she will sign things as Stella Clinton, that's. 66 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: Right, and they refer to each other constantly as sisters. 67 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: But in fact, these two quite theatrical individuals were, in 68 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: fact their Christian names were Ernest Bolton and William Park, 69 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: and they were in fact men who were widely known 70 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: in the London theater community as being very successful cross dressers. 71 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: And I just want to point out right up front, yeah, 72 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: I thought that term was antiquated. I wasn't sure if 73 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: that was like the okay thing to say, but I 74 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 2: did look it up on the Gay and Lesbian Alliance 75 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: Against Defamation website which has a media section, and. 76 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,679 Speaker 3: Cross dresser is the preferred term. 77 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 2: It does not imply that either individual is gay, but 78 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: it's just specifically referring to someone of a gender that 79 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 2: likes to dress like a member of another gender. 80 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 3: And that was the case with Fanny and Stella Rights. 81 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: So Stella were also known as Ernest was born in 82 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: eighteen forty seven, the child of a stockbroker, and Park 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: was born in eighteen forty six, the child of a barrister, 84 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: so a legal official. 85 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: That's right. 86 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: And Stella's mother encouraged him from an early age to 87 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: kind of follow that impulse to wear clothing of the 88 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: opposite sex, which. 89 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: Was kind of common in Victorian era, or less uncommon 90 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: than it is now. 91 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: That's right, because women for a long time were not 92 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: allowed to act in the theater sos. Female parts were 93 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: played by men in drag. 94 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: Right, and this was an old tradition, And these two 95 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: people were talented actors. Bolton in particular was known for 96 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: having a wonderful soprano voice, and they both regularly played 97 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: female parts in legitimate theaters. And then also at this time, 98 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: some theatrical productions would go to country. 99 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: Houses, private homes. 100 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, private event now of like let's say philanthropists of 101 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,119 Speaker 2: the arts. They would have a salon at that house 102 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: and like host some sort of event where there would 103 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: be a play put on and a collection of various 104 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: wealthy individuals from the community would go there and check 105 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: it out. 106 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: Like Lord Ravingham Putin on the Ritz, Lord Pilkington of Ebsworth. 107 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, Lord Webbyto's hand time, Okay, you know of the 108 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: do what you got to do of the old Northern 109 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: English hand time dynasty. No, but we are The point 110 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: is true, and it's important thing to mention they were 111 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: playing these female parts in theatrical productions. But they were 112 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: also wearing clothing that Victorian society said should only be 113 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: worn by women off stage. 114 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, like in public, like walking around town, and just 115 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: just to paint you a picture here, they were not 116 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: necessarily professional actors. It was something they liked to do 117 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: in their free time, but in their day jobs, their 118 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: day lives. Ernest who was twenty two, and Frederick who 119 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: was twenty three. Yeah, just a year old, that's right. 120 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: Frederick was a law student, and I believe Ernest was 121 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: a clerk at a law firm, and I think he 122 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: ended up working at a bank as well at some point. 123 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: And let's examine their lives a little in a little 124 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: more detail. So these are famous friends. They refer to 125 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: each other as sisters. They have this really strong bond 126 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: and you know, they're in their early twenties. What a 127 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: time to be alive, right, glory days. They also do 128 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: not shy away from public attention or controversy. The dresses 129 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: of the time For anybody who's interested in the history 130 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: of fashion. We'd also like to recommend our peer podcast 131 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: Dressed available now wherever you find your favorite shows. But 132 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: their clothing that they would wear was incredibly complicated, at 133 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: least to me, unlike a slacks and a dress shirt guy. 134 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: But it's important to note that they also dressed as 135 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: what would stereotypically be considered men two and they would 136 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: stroll back and forth what's called the derby. This is 137 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: from a great article on Indiana dot edu off the pedestal. 138 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: They would attract attention because they would wear a male dress, 139 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: but they would also wear makeup, which was normally associated 140 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: with women at the time. 141 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 3: That's right. 142 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: There were several accounts of folks who knew them around 143 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 2: town who said that they thought that they were two 144 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: gay women wearing men's clothing, and there were accounts of 145 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: folks who when seeing them wearing women's clothing, thought they 146 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: were two gay men wearing women's clothing. So they, like, 147 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: the gender identity is extra kind of muddled up here 148 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: in a really interesting way. The thing about it is 149 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: too theaters, in particular in London were kind of a 150 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 2: hotbed for this sort of underground gay world, right it 151 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: was certainly not accepted in the mainstream. These theaters would 152 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 2: be a way for folks in this scene to connect 153 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: with one another. Obviously, before you know Facebook and tender 154 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: and scruff and things like that. 155 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 3: They had to have a way and also to kind 156 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: of keep it secret. 157 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was another thing that occurred called a molly house. 158 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 3: Do you hear about this? 159 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: No, So, a molly house was a term that was 160 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: used in the eighteenth and nineteenth century to describe a 161 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: meeting place. This kind of meeting place, particularly in England. 162 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: They were generally taverns, bars, essentially coffee houses, or sometimes 163 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: private rooms. And the thing about it is, at this 164 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: time any kind of same sex activity was considered illegal 165 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: and remained a capital offence until the eighteen sixties. 166 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 2: Capital offense meaning the death penalty, and sodomy. The act 167 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: of sodomy carried that sentence, as sodomy being a pretty 168 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 2: loaded term. Absolutely, and in this context that word refers 169 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: to a particular type of penetrative sex act. Yes, that 170 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: is correct. And it's a very important point that we're 171 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 2: making here because this need for secrecy was not some 172 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: kind of like oh fun marketing thing. 173 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: Oh no, like those fake speakeasy bars that are so 174 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: common in the US these days. This was necessary to 175 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: protect these people's lives. 176 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: Well, and it just goes to show how bold Fanny 177 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: and Stella were in kind of flouting this and just 178 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: you know, doing their thing and going to these very 179 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 2: public places, wearing these outfits and flirting with very powerful men. 180 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: In fact, the letter Ben that you read at the 181 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: very top of the show was written to one of 182 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: these powerful men who plays a very important part in 183 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: this story. 184 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we should set them up before we dive in. 185 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: Good call. Lord Arthur Pelham Clinton was an English aristocrat 186 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: born in eighteen forty and he was, you know, krem 187 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: de la creme of society at the time. 188 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 3: He went to Eton. He was in the Royal Navy, 189 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 3: He was in the Crimean War. He was in Parliament 190 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: for three years. 191 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: He was in Parliament, he had a personal connection with 192 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister, who was the godson of William Gladstone's. 193 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 3: This guy had what we call the juice. 194 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: He had connects, Yeah, absolutely, And he had a relationship 195 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy with Stella or Ernest Bolton. And at 196 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: the time he was technically considered a naval officer, but 197 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: he was retired and he was formerly at one time 198 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: he had been a man of great wealth means, but 199 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: a few years before eighteen seventy he had to declare 200 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: bankruptcy to the tune of like about seventy thousand pounds 201 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: back then, so a little bit of inflation calculation casey, 202 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if we have a sound cue for that. 203 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: That amounts almost six million pounds today. 204 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 3: So he was in deep. 205 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: He had a lot of problems, but he had found 206 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: love with Stella or Ernest Bolton. 207 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 2: And we should take this time to mention the fact 208 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: that Stella, between Stella and Fanny, was considered the more 209 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: feminine looking one, And if you see pictures of them, 210 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: of which there is one with Lord Arthur and both 211 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: of them, Stella is as much more feminine features and 212 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: Fanny doesn't even really look like a female in this picture. 213 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: Looks is wearing some kind of a sweater and has 214 00:12:55,559 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: more of a cropped haircut. And it's very interesting mentioned 215 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 2: in several of these articles we've been looking at. One 216 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: in particular on The Guardian mentions the fact that when 217 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: you look at pictures of the two of them and 218 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: you see Fanny, you might wonder, by today's standards, how 219 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: people may have been confused about the gender of this person. 220 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: See Yeah, that's a great article by Catherine Hughes. Fanny 221 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: and Stella The Young Men who Shocked Victorian England. It's 222 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: a review of a book by Neil McKenna, who does 223 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: some great research here. I think we've set the scene right. 224 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: They're pushing these social boundaries in a way that probably 225 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: has several of their friends and loved ones saying be careful, 226 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 1: watch out. 227 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 2: Well we should also just one last thing is that 228 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 2: Stella presented herself as the wife of Lord Love, Lord Clinton, 229 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 2: Lord Clinton. 230 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: And that's yeah, and that's why in the excerpt of 231 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: the letter we read from Fanny, that's why you hear 232 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: them saying things, but sister in law, sister in law, 233 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: and they took this relationship very seriously. It wasn't just 234 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: like some in joke. And when you read these letters, 235 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: it's crazy, especially some of the short the shorter ones, the. 236 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: Kind of dicey ones where like they're kind of like 237 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: feuding a little bit. 238 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, hey, don't take what Stella said personally. 239 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: She was drinking and yeah. 240 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: Or there's one where where Stella's saying to Lord Clinton, 241 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: how dare you be so rude to me? Yes, you know, 242 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: it's very like, you know, terse kind of lover's spat 243 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: kind of stuff. So we have set the scene, Ben 244 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: and now the year is eighteen sixty nine. 245 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: Yes, the year is eighteen sixty nine. You see, it 246 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: wasn't just civilians taking notice of the adventures of Fanny 247 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: and Stella around town. Know, the local law enforcement took 248 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: notice as well, and they started following the pair, monitoring 249 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: their movements for like a year. Yeah, an intensive year. 250 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: Was there real crime that they could have been addressing. Yeah, 251 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: absolutely did they. London was a very dangerous place in 252 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: those days, and so they follow him for a year. 253 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: And let's fast forward to a Thursday on April twenty eighth, 254 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy. 255 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: That's right, the pair is attending a performance at the 256 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 3: Strand Theater in London with a mutual friend of theirs, right, 257 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: Hugh Alexander Mundel. 258 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: And as per usual when they're going out of a 259 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 2: night to the theater, they are dressed to the nines, 260 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: wearing evening frocks with all of the accoutremont gloves, bodices, 261 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: everything that would go along with it, lace, all of 262 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: that half thing, Yeah, the whole nine. And they actually 263 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: have a private box. 264 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: They're the detective who was following them saw the meat 265 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: to other people. But as they were leaving, as you said, 266 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: no police superintendent and a police sergeant had joined with 267 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: the detective while the group was watching the show, and 268 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: they arrested Bolton Park and this other person, Hugh Alexander 269 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: Mundel as they attempted to leave. The others escaped. The 270 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: three arrested individuals were then subjected to. 271 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: A humiliating battery of examinations. 272 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a perfect way to say it. Yeah, to 273 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: establish whether they had in fact had that like, had 274 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: experienced that sexual act right that they were specifically looking for. 275 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: And then they were brought to the magistrate at the 276 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: Bow Street Magistrates Court the next day and they were 277 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: not allowed to change, They were not given the option 278 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: to change into different clothing. They were just kept overnight 279 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: and then hauled out, which to me seems like another 280 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: purposeful act of humiliation. 281 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 3: Oh absolutely. 282 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: I mean they were forced to stay in the jail 283 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: set wearing their wigs and everything. And there's a great 284 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: quote in this review of the Neil McKenna book from 285 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 2: Catherine Hughes that describes the scene as such, after a 286 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: night in the cells with wigs slipping and stubble poking 287 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 2: through it, was pretty clear to the packed and panting 288 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 2: courtroom that the two tarts were actually young men. Very 289 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: strange way of putting it. I feel like this is 290 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: old who would write like that? Why would they call 291 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: them tarts? That seems really offensive. 292 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: It's still a British term that there is, but tart 293 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: is an archaic term. 294 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: That's fair. Okay, I'll go on. Their names, according to 295 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: the Charred Sheet, were Ernest Bolton and Frederick Park. To 296 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: their friends, they were Stella and Fanny, and in the 297 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 2: newspapers they now became front page fixtures known as the funny. 298 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: He shee ladies, tremendously offensive. This is when it officially 299 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: becomes what's called the Bolton and Park scandal. So at 300 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: this time there is a minor law that they could 301 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: be considered breaking, which is called personation of a one. Yeah, 302 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: so I think it was a misdemeanor. Yeah, it's like 303 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: it's a lower charge. It's definitely not a capital offense. 304 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: And what the court system is trying to do in 305 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: the preceding legal arguments here is they're trying to prove 306 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: not that these people were quote unquote personating a woman, 307 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: but that they were engaged in unlawful sexual relations. 308 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. 309 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: I mean it seems to me like they were trying 310 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: very desperately to make an example of the two in 311 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 2: a really horrific way that I believe stretched up to 312 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 2: someone of the neighborhood of fourteen hearings, and it became 313 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: a total media circus because you know, the public wanted 314 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 2: to get a look at them, because they had this like, 315 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: you know, horribly offensive title now that was, you know, 316 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: took the public's imagination by storm, the funny he shee ladies. 317 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 3: So it became this total ship show of a. 318 00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: Trial, right, and the details of the law under which 319 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: they would have been prosecuted, perhaps persecuted is a better 320 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: word here, required the court to have a witness, someone 321 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: who could say, I know, and I saw this thing 322 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: happening with these two people that I can conclusively identify. 323 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: The problem was that despite the terrible media atmosphere of 324 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: the time and the national attention focused on it, the 325 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: prosecution was unable to find the witness. They were unable 326 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: to prove that anything happened. 327 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: That's right, But do you know what one of the 328 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 2: most galling pieces of evidence to the prosecution was ben 329 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: It was the fact that Stella, while attending this performance 330 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 2: at the Strand Theater, had apparently had the audacity to 331 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: use the women's laboratory. 332 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: That was one of the huge things they were. I 333 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: think they were already planning to arrest them, yes that night, absolutely, 334 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: but yeah, that was That was is one of the 335 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: things that the broadsheets, the newspapers of the time really 336 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: latched onto. 337 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 3: That's right, the penny papers. 338 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 2: And here is a pretty interesting and telling quote from 339 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: the way this is all kind of portrayed to the public. 340 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: There is one peculiar trait in the evidence that stands 341 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 2: out in bold and audacious relief, and too plainly shows 342 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: the base and prurient nature which these misguided youths, for 343 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: they are but little more, must possess. We refer to 344 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 2: the entrance of Park into the retiring room, which is 345 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 2: set apart for ladies at the Strand Theater, who had 346 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: the unblushing impudence to apply to the female attendant to 347 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: fasten up the gathers of his skirt, which he alleged 348 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: had come unfastened. 349 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: And the character we had mentioned, the husband of Stella, 350 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: also returns to this story in a tragic way. 351 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 3: He is implicated. 352 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he is unable to testify because he had 353 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 2: passed away officially on paper from scarlet fever, but many 354 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: whispers implying that he had taken his own life. 355 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 356 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: That was on June the eighteenth, literally the day after 357 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: he received his subpoena for the trial. Yeah, so circumstances 358 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: strongly point to him taking his own life. And then 359 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: at the time there was speculation, however, that before he 360 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: had done this, either died of scarlet fever or committed 361 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: suicide for the blow his reputation would take right from 362 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: being implicated in this, there's pretty solid speculation that he 363 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: had used those existing connections to fake his death. 364 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 3: Pretty interesting stuff. 365 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 2: Ah, Ben, And not to muddy the waters here, we'll 366 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 2: get back to the conclusion of Fanny and Stella story, 367 00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: But there's another bit of implication that after he supposedly 368 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 2: either died or disappeared, another woman woman identifying as male 369 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 2: in dress, impersonated him and used his name to defraud 370 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: other wealthy individuals of money. 371 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Mary Jane Fair, No, that's that's her given name, 372 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: and she was claiming to be Lord Arthur Clinton and 373 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: to double mundy this or to money it further, while, 374 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: while pretending to be Lord Arthur Clinton, Mary would also 375 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: sometimes dress as a woman, so dressing as Clinton, dressing 376 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: as a woman, arguing that it was to throw people 377 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: off the trail. 378 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 3: Complicated. 379 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, lad, But you know, we kind of already 380 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: spilled the beans that there's a happy ending to this 381 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 2: story in that they were acquitted or that he did 382 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: not convict. 383 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: Yes, they were finally acquitted, and the problem here is that, 384 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: I mean, we could talk about how they were acquitted. 385 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: So the prosecution was not able to prove that there 386 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: was any offense committed under the laws of the time. 387 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: And they also, despite the personation of a woman misdemeanor charge, 388 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: they weren't able to get that to stick either. After 389 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: the Lord Chief Justice presiding, a guy named Sir Alexander Cockburn, 390 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: summed up the prosecution's case. He said that the prosecution's 391 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: case was garbage juice and that the police were acting unprofessionally. 392 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: And then the jury took about fifty three minutes to 393 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: deliberate they found both individuals not guilty. So imagine the 394 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: emotional roller coaster, right, And. 395 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: It's pretty cool because one account that I read says 396 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: that when that non guilty verdict was rendered. Everyone in 397 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 2: the gallery exclaimed with shouts of bravo. So you know, 398 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: they were well liked in the community, and they were known, 399 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 2: and it seems as though at least the people in 400 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 2: the courtroom that were there to support them were kind 401 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 2: of in their corner. 402 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 403 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, And this leads us to a larger social context 404 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: here too. One thing I really appreciated about Catherine Hughes's 405 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: article was noting the great changes in society that were 406 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: occurring at the time. Right in eighteen seventy, the Republican 407 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: movement was reaching a tipping point, the work of Charles 408 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: Darwin was propagating out through the world. Paris had quote 409 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: become a commune, and there was this cultural ecosystem in 410 00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: which this trial occurred. This finding had later consequences all 411 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 1: on the world of English law, especially when it comes to. 412 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 3: Gender identity. 413 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: That's right, It's something we haven't mentioned, But at this 414 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: point they did not make distinctions of gay people. It 415 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 2: was more distinctions of acts, right, So no one would 416 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 2: have referred to Fanny and Stella as gay. No, that 417 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: didn't come until much later, several decades later, in fact, 418 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 2: with a case involving someone I believe who you know, well, 419 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 2: Ben Oscar Wilde. 420 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I am Oscar wild about him, but we have 421 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: never met. I am a big fan. Yes, legendary writer, poet, 422 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: author of The Picture of Dory and Gray. Oscar Wilde 423 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: was born in eighteen fifty four, who was alive while 424 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: these things were happening. Not that much not that much 425 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: younger than Fanny and Stella. So he was also eventually 426 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: and to trial because his sexual identity became a problem 427 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: for the government of the day. 428 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the thing, Ben, We're talking about some 429 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 2: of these changes that maybe were happening in the public consciousness, 430 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: but as we know, the gears of justice and the 431 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: legal system grind pretty slowly, so they certainly were not 432 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: caught up to any of these kind of like awakenings. 433 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's we see a similar thing with cultural change 434 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: and technological change. The world of legislation takes a while 435 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: to catch up even at the best of times. Oscar, 436 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: much like Stella, was dressed in what would be considered 437 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: feminine attire for much of his early life because his 438 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: mother had expected and wished for a girl. 439 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: Ben, how would you describe the way he dressed later 440 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: in life when he was a much more known figure. 441 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 3: He certainly didn't dress. 442 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: He dressed in men's clothing, but not the typical kind 443 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: of men's clothes that the gentry would wear. 444 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: He had expensive tastes, you know what I mean. He 445 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: was going for sophisticated fabrics. He have very particular concerns 446 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: about dress. He liked what we would call the good life. 447 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: That's right, you know, And unfortunately he had to end 448 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: up in court attempting to defend his own sexual identity. 449 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: The first case, actually, the first trial, occurs when he 450 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: sues someone for libel. 451 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 3: Right, that's right. 452 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 2: He sued a gentleman whose names gives me at the moment, 453 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: who actually left his personal calling card for Wild. I 454 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 2: guess I'm imagining a front desk situation at a gentleman's 455 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: club called the Albmire, and on it he accused him 456 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 2: of being a quote sodomite. 457 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: Right, and Wild received some mixed advice or conflicting advice 458 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,959 Speaker 1: from his friends and then from some other people, and 459 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 1: they some people said a lot of them said just 460 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: let it go, don't worry about that guy. And then 461 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: he decided that he would initiate a private prosecution for libel, 462 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: since the note amounted to a public accusation that Wild 463 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: he committed what was considered a crime. So this guy, 464 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: the Marquis Queensberry, is arrested and the charge of criminal 465 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: libel at the time carries a potential two years in prison. 466 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Under the Libel Act of eighteen 467 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: forty three, Queensberry could have avoided this prison sentence if 468 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: he demonstrated that what he said was true. 469 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 3: That's right. 470 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: Wild kind of put himself in the crosshairs there, didn't He. 471 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: He did and against the advice of his friends, And 472 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: it also exposed his private life to the public, and 473 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: people started to learn details about the people that he 474 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: associated with, right, the people that he had romantic relationships with, 475 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: a team of private detectives started diving into what'd you 476 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: call it, like the Victorian underground. 477 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, which was which was absolutely th And by 478 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,959 Speaker 2: the way, at this point we're in early Edwardian times. 479 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 3: Yeah that's true, that's true. 480 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: And the press and the public is in a state 481 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: of just almost rabid hysteria by the time the trial 482 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: opens in eighteen ninety five, in April. And the problem 483 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: was Wild started to know this wasn't going to go 484 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: his way, so he dropped the prosecution. Queensberry was found 485 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: not guilty, and the court said that the accusation was 486 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: true in substance and in fact. And this, this ruling 487 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: also left Wild on the financial hook for the legal 488 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: cost of the person who had insulted him. And then, yeah, 489 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: and it made him go bankrupt. 490 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 2: And we should say that the reason the Marquess of 491 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: Queensberry had such a problem with Wild is because he 492 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: purportedly Wild had had a relationship with his son, Lord Alfred. 493 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 2: But it wasn't this trial that did Wild in the 494 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: way that we know he ultimately got done, right, Yeah, exactly. 495 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: There was another trial that occurred. So after Fanny and 496 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: Stella's famous trial, fast forward a few years and we 497 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: arrive at something called the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 498 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty five that said any sort of same sex 499 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: act of any type was against the law. And Wild, 500 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: after he had left this, you know, he had left 501 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: this other trial, right, this libel trial, dropped the prosecution. 502 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: There was a warrant for his arrest put out on 503 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: the charges of sodomy and gross indecency, and people gave 504 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: him conflicting advice again, some people said go to Dover 505 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: and hop on a boat for France. 506 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 3: As soon as he curiously. 507 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: And then his mom said no, stay and fight this 508 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: and Wild was arrested on April sixth, and then the 509 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 1: events moved quickly. He was convicted along with Alfred Taylor 510 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: on May twenty fifth of eighteen ninety five and sentenced 511 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: to two years hard labor. 512 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 3: But what is what is that? Yeah, it's weird. 513 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: You would think it would be something functional like we 514 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 2: think of today where they have inmates like pressing delighting 515 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 2: stuff for pressing vice. But in those days, it was 516 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: like these bizarre menial tasks of like unraveling rope for 517 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 2: hours and hours at a time. 518 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 3: Things like that, just like psychological torture. Really strange. Wow. 519 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: And he was incarcerated from May eighteen ninety five to 520 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety seven or eighteenth of May eighteen ninety seven. 521 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: As soon as he was a free man, he sailed 522 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: immediately for France. He never returned to the UK and 523 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: they lost one of the greatest literary minds of that generation. 524 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: And I just want to mention that unraveling rope apparently 525 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 2: is kind of functional because it's old rope and you 526 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: unravel it so that you can recycle it. I guess 527 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: to make oh new rope, okay, And they would also 528 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: make like calking compound, you know, for like construction. 529 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 3: Okay. 530 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: So it's when I first read it, I thought it 531 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 2: was just some sort of bizarre, tedious task to make 532 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 2: them go insane. 533 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: So it's not like the thing that you hear about 534 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: in the military where someone makes you dig a hole 535 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: and then fill it back in right and to get again. 536 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, Or listened to like Black Sabbath with headphones on 537 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: at like insane volume. 538 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 3: I thought you were about to say it. 539 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 2: Or listen to podcasts, Yeah, that can be tough too, 540 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 2: but hopefully this one wasn't tough. And I know we 541 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: went a little farther into the Oscar wild thing. It 542 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 2: wasn't really the main topic of this episode, but it's 543 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 2: a really important full circle. And he did in fact 544 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: end up getting incarcerated, and when he was incarcerated, he 545 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: has this amazing quote that I think is so prescient. 546 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 2: It's really really important. The idea of the love dare 547 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 2: not speak its name, And I think we should maybe 548 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: end on this, and he refers to this as being 549 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: in this century misunderstood, so much misunderstood that it may 550 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: be described as the love that dare not speak its name. 551 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 2: And on account of it, I'm placed where I am now. 552 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: It is beautiful, it is fine. It is the noblest 553 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 2: form of affection. There is nothing unnatural about it. It 554 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 2: is intellectual, and it repeatedly exists between an elder and 555 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: a younger man, when the elder man has intellect and 556 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: the younger man has all the joy, hope, and glamour 557 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,959 Speaker 2: of life before him. That it should be. So the 558 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: world does not understand. The world mocks at it and 559 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: sometimes puts one in the pillory for it. And what 560 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 2: he's doing is basically just describing any kind of same 561 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: I mean, he's talking about this intellectual bond between an 562 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: older and a younger man, but I think what he's 563 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: really describing is any kind of same sex attraction or affection. 564 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: Yes, well said, well said little and Oscar wild. This 565 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: guy's work is just rife with these amazing quotes. You know, 566 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: one of my favorites was always be yourself everyone else 567 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: has already taken. 568 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 3: It's pretty good. 569 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: That's pretty good, hey, and that really applies to Fanny 570 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 2: and Stella. 571 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, Hey, we got there. 572 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 3: We did. 573 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: So we want to thank you all so much for 574 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: tuning in. Of course, thanks to our super producer Casey Pegram. 575 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: Thanks to Eves Jeffcoat, who helped us with the research 576 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: for this episode. I thought this one was pretty wonderful, 577 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 2: you know. And what happened with Oscar a while that 578 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 2: he didn't die in prison, did he? 579 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 3: No, he did not die in prison. Good because that 580 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 3: would have been a bummer. 581 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: Oh I'm I'm laughing, just because he went out like 582 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: he's just such a cool dude. 583 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 3: Okay. 584 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: So he died bedridden in November of nineteen hundred, specifically 585 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 1: November thirtieth, and apparently the whole time he was there, 586 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: he was complaining about the way that like the room 587 00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: was decorated, and that's why reputedly his very last words, 588 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: the one that most people who attribute to him is 589 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: this wallpaper is terrible. 590 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 3: One of us will have to go. And then he 591 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 3: passed away. I hope that's real. 592 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: I hope it is too. He's got such style, you know. 593 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 3: And ask for a Fanny and Stella. 594 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: I couldn't find really anything about what happened to them 595 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 2: at the end of their lives. 596 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: Because you've been no, no, you got a little bit murky. 597 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: But you can understand how they would want to retire 598 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: from public life. 599 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 3: Absolutely, but what that's the trial of the century. 600 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: So we can only hope that they were able to 601 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: find some privacy and some dignity that the press apparently 602 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: could not afford them at the time. 603 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 2: Right, and we added in some more stuff. Mid thank you. 604 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: Let's let's get to it right right. 605 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, of course. 606 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: Find us on Instagram, find us on Twitter, find us 607 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: on Facebook. Hang out with us on our community page, 608 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians, where you can meet your fellow audience members. 609 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: And thanks to Alex Williams for composing our theme, and 610 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: most importantly to you for tuning in to another episode. 611 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 3: Of Ridiculous History. 612 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 613 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.