WEBVTT - How to Embrace the Mystery of the Human Spirit with Parker Palmer 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.480 We all want to see changes in our lives, in 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.240 our minds, and in our hearts, so we read inspirational authors, 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.080 we listen to podcasts like this one, and we get 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.520 fired up to apply what we've learned. But then inevitably 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.880 we fall back into old patterns and it can be 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.560 so frustrating and maddening. When we start to build habits 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:22.640 that truly matter, we see real change, but without enough consistency, 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.959 we barely scratch the surface. In my building habits that 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:30.400 matter course, I apply behavioral principles to perennial wisdom so 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.520 that you can experience the benefits on a deeper level. 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.120 This is your chance to get accountability, ongoing support, and 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.760 a proven system. As you journey towards a greater understanding 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.680 of yourself, you start to bridge the gap between knowing 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.680 what to do and actually doing it. And you do 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.600 this in our group setting, in which community, connection and 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.440 friendships are all created which support you along the way. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.639 This program is open for enrollment until March eleventh. Head 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:02.080 to oneufeed dot net slash wisdom to learn all about 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.480 this opportunity for us to connect and dive deeper into 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.840 how building habits that matter can transform the way you 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.479 experience your day to day life. Go to oneufeed dot 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.040 net slash wisdom. I hope to meet you in this 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.240 special program that starts very soon. 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.040 Where's the creative tension of holding between I want to 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:26.319 show up in the Michigan Legislature and argue my case 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.800 in open dialectical manner. And I'm going to show up 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.639 at the Michigan Legislature and let my AK forty seven 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:36.039 do my talking for me. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:47.880 Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:51.280 have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.560 like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.160 think ring true. And yet for many of us, our 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:04.160 thoughts don't strengthen or empower. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.240 or fear. We see what we don't have instead of 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.000 what we do. We think things that hold us back 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.440 and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:18.040 Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.360 to make a life worth living. This podcast is about 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:24.080 how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:41.600 how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us, 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.680 our guest on this episode is Parker Palmer, the founder 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.639 and senior partner of the Center for Courage and Renewal. 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.840 He's a world renowned writer, speaker, and activist who focuses 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:57.120 on issues of education, community leadership, spirituality, and social change. 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.480 Parker has reached millions of people through his nine books, 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.840 which include Let Your Life Speak, The Courage to Teach 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.720 a Hidden Wholeness, and Healing the Heart of Democracy, among others. Today, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.399 Eric and Parker riff on whatever topics come up. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:13.720 Hi Parker, Welcome to the show. 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:15.920 Hi Harik, It's good to be back with you. 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.120 It is great to have you back. I am just 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.200 really happy to talk with you again. I was saying 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:22.920 to you before we started, like, it's not like you 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.480 have a new book out where I was like, oh, 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:26.280 we got to talk about this book. I just was like, 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.639 I just want to talk to Parker again. So I'm 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.720 glad that we were able to make it happen. We'll 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.000 be talking about this and that, but we'll start in 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.280 the way we always do, with the Parable of the 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.160 Wolves and see what you have to say about it 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.160 this time. So in the parable, there's a grandparent who's 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.440 talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.040 are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.600 One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:52.680 and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.680 which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.760 the grandchild stops think about it for a second, look 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:03.360 at their grandparents. They say, well, which one wins? And 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.480 the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.240 to start off by asking you what that parable means 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.080 to you in your life and in the work that 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:13.440 you do. 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.800 I love the parable, I have loved it for a 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.120 long time, and what it brings quickly to mind is 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:24.920 my long time belief for understanding that so much in 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.080 life depends on what it is that we bring from 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:34.120 inside our lives to the outside world. And conversely, when 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.400 the world throws stuff back at us, what do we 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.360 do internally to process it? How do we receive it? 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:42.520 Do we cling to it? Can we let it go? 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.520 Can we turn dirt into gold? Can we receive affirmation 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.839 and blessing in an open hearted way? I call it 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.640 life on the Mobius strip. It's this constant exchange of 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:58.039 the inner and outer which keep co creating each other. 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:00.120 And in the end there is no inner and out. 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:04.919 It's one continual act of co creation. But when I 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.200 think of that, when I think of it that way, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.880 or in terms of the parable of the two wolves, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:15.640 I'm reminded of how much responsibility we have for creating 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:20.960 and recreating the micro environments around us. You know, as 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.320 one person, a friend of mine has said, our reach 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:29.000 may be only three feet or so, but let's make 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.960 a positive impact within that three foot reach. And at 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:37.120 the same time, we're co creating ourselves by how we 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.800 internalize what the world throws back at us. So it's 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.840 a huge parable in terms of life today. I mean, 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.919 look at all that's going on, where so much is 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:52.719 being manifested from the shadow side of our lives in 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:59.000 the external world in murderous ways, in hurtful ways, in 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:05.080 ways that threaten democracy itself and certainly injure other people. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.840 So it's a big, big story. 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.240 I'm always interested in. You know, there's a narrative that 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:17.120 things today are worse than they've been before, and I'm 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.520 always interested in, you know, talking to people who've been 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.560 around a little bit longer, you know, is that your 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.520 sense also, And I know as we tend to get older, 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.359 we tend to think that the world today is not 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.159 as good as the world used to be. I'm just 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.000 kind of curious. If you're eighty you were born you know, 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.599 really still well, the really horrible time in human history 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.400 was happening, right, you know, you were born during a 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.040 war that killed what like seventeen million people or something, 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.240 you know, So that historical context I find helpful. How 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.840 do you think about our current time and placing it 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:56.200 in overall context? 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:59.479 Well, I think the gist of what you just said, 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:03.520 Eric is correct, which is that in my lifetime, I'm 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:08.400 actually eighty four right now, born in nineteen thirty nine, 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:13.360 So I've seen a lot of human ups and downs. 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:18.160 Can't even begin to tick them off. But certainly World 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:24.800 War Two, the Holocaust which you referenced on, through the sixties, 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.840 at the Vietnam War, and our recurring inability to come 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:35.280 to terms with the original sin of race, racial prejudice, injustice, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:40.000 white supremacy in this society, the McCarthy era of the 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:46.680 fifties right on through today, with incredible numbers of American 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:52.720 citizens sort of joining in on conspiracy theories and the 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:58.120 denial of the obvious, the denial that an election got 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.560 won by the person who actually want it, and buying 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.040 in on the basis of no evidence to the notion 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:08.239 that somehow that election was massively rigged and massively flawed. 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:11.840 So there's been a lot of that in my lifetime, 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.800 and I'm not forgetting what's going on in the Middle 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.760 East these days. Add that to the list of very 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:25.520 fundamental human struggles to decide which wolf we feed. I 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:31.160 think what I do find troubling today is the rise 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:36.720 of the far far right, not only here at home 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.880 but around the world, and the ease with which so 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:48.319 many citizens seem to buy in to baseless conspiracy theories. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:53.520 I'll never understand these conversations that I sometimes get into, 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:58.360 where I'm saying, well, here's what the research shows about X, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.800 Y or Z, and the other person basically says, well, 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.600 here's what an anonymous person named Q has to say 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:11.960 about that, and so I refute the research. These things 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:16.840 truly baffle me. I may be deluding myself, but I 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.160 think I mean. I was in on a lot of 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.240 conversations about Vietnam. I was in on a lot of 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.560 conversations about McCarthy and that era of threat to democracy, 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:31.640 and my memory is that they were measurably more rational 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:37.040 and more empirical than what it is that we're treated 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.000 to today. So in that sense, I'm a yes and 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.800 a no. I mean, yes, it keeps happening, and there 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.720 are some twists and turns in the current crisis that 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:52.000 I find really hard to wrap my mind during. 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.240 Yeah, I mean, you wrote a book I don't know 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.600 how many years ago now called Healing the Heart of Democracy, 0:09:58.120 --> 0:09:59.800 and I think we've talked about that in one of 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.920 our previous interviews, and I think that that book was 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:09.080 written before the rise of as much conspiracy theory as 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:14.319 we're seeing today, as much the word polarization seems overused sometimes. 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.079 I mean, I watched the sixties and I'm like, well, 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.480 you know, we were killing president, you know, we were 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:24.319 assassinating leaders here in the US. Like that seems pretty polarized. 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.720 But I do agree with you about this not even 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.880 being able to agree on basic facts. Is there anything 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.280 in your thoughts on how we heal that? 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.960 Yeah, it's interesting you should ask, because that book, Healing 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.600 the Art of Democracy, which was published in twenty eleven, 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.160 will be republished in a new edition next year twenty 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:49.200 twenty four, and I was asked by the publisher to 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:53.000 write a new introduction to it, which is basically around 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.120 the question, how have you changed your mind if at all? 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.360 I say basically two things in that new interest deduction. 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.360 One is that my fundamental thesis in healing the heart 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.080 of democracy is that we have got to learn to 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.920 talk to each other across lines of difference, and we 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.920 have to learn to engage in what I call creative 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:21.480 tension holding. Creative tension holding means the ability which can 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:27.240 be taught in schools and voluntary associations, in religious communities 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.880 and families, that can be taught anywhere and everywhere. Creative 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:35.840 tension holding means holding apparently opposite positions in a way 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:41.960 that eventually allows the two parties either to come to 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.320 some compromise in the middle of it, or to learn 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:50.640 that there's a kind of transcendent third thing that neither 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.439 one of them had considered or thought of, which would 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.560 meet the needs on both sides of the equation. That's 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:02.520 why it's creative tension holding toward some place new that 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.080 had not yet been imagined. It has everything to do 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:12.880 with focusing on nurturing that relationship between two or more 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:18.800 people where what's important is not to always be insisting 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.559 on being right, but to keep your eye on being 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:28.120 in right relationship, because that creates the container that allows 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.959 for an ongoing discussion. And a lot of these issues 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.160 around which were conflicted are complicated issues, and so they're 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.959 not going to be resolved in five minutes. It may 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.120 take five months or five years. But we have to 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.480 learn to hang in with each other. So as long 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:47.600 as we are a country rooted in we the people, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.800 a government of by and for the people, as long 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:55.200 as we're at least maintaining the premise the principle, however 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.920 broken it may be in practice that we the people 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.600 have the final say, should have the final say on 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.000 all things. I don't see any way to get away 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.400 from the proposition that talking to each other is the 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.560 way forward, because that's how you build up we the people. 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.280 But in this introduction to the new addition of healing 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.720 the art of democracy, I also say, what's happening now 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:24.360 poses us with some oppositions, some polarities that are not 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:29.680 open to creative tension holding. I mean, where's the creative 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:33.240 tension of holding between I want to show up in 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:39.520 the Michigan legislature and argue my case in open dialectical manner, 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.080 and I'm going to show up at the Michigan Legislature 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.760 and let my AK forty seven do my talking for me. 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.080 There's no creative tension to be held between those two positions. 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.199 There's no creative tension to be held when the gist 0:13:54.200 --> 0:14:00.600 of the conversation is around which race, which religion, which ethnicity, 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:07.040 which nationality, which gender or sexual orientation is superior to 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:13.200 the others. Yep, there's no creative tension holding with conspiracy 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.959 theories up against research based facts. So I think what 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:23.960 that means is developing a thicker skin around saying this 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.800 is not a conversation that's worth pursuing. This is not 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.800 a conversation in which we can expect either to meet 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.920 in the middle or to generate a transcendent third thing. 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.360 And I think a lot of good hearted people, and 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.920 I've been one of those people over the years, just 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.920 have a hard time with saying this is not a 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:51.840 conversation that's going to go anywhere fruitful. We keep pretending 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.760 that if we just change the subject and pass the turkey, 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.560 everything is going to be fine, you know. 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.560 Yeah, Well, I tend to agree with you, right. I'm 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.800 a big proponent in almost all cases like get to 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.560 know the other person, understand why they think what they think, 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.760 understand where they're coming from, see their humanity, you know. 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.920 And I'm a big proponent of that, right, And it 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.640 does seem, like you said, there are certain positions and 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.360 viewpoints that, like, I don't know how much creative tension 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.800 you can get when I'm like that wall is black 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.160 and you're like, no, that wall is white. Human perception 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.200 things around colors aside. I mean, the basic thing is 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:37.120 that we can't even agree on a base reality to 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.480 have a conversation around. And that's where I feel a 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:46.160 little bit despairing, you know, around these things, right, because 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.080 I don't even know how to engage in conversation in 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.800 a useful way, I end up often not even having 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.320 the conversation, which then doesn't feel good either, Like I 0:15:57.360 --> 0:15:58.280 don't know what to do. 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.040 Yeah, I agree with you. I think you have to try. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.840 I think you have to keep trying until all the 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:09.160 precincts have reported in that it's pretty clear that this 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:13.560 is not a discussable item. Yeah, but there's another point 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.560 that I've made in Healing the Heart of Democracy that 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:21.040 I also built into the new introduction, and that is 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:26.080 that there's a long history in America, dating from the 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.040 very beginning of this country, in which it doesn't take 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.760 one hundred percent of the people to get the people's 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.600 business done. I mean, you know, one of the salient 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.680 features of democracy is you can do business with fifty 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.080 one percent, even if forty nine percent are saying a 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.880 pox on all your houses. I was fascinated when I 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:52.160 was researching Healing the Heart of Democracy to learn I 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.240 think for the first time that in the Constitutional Convention 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.120 of seventeen eighty seven, which basically resulted in the document, 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.720 we now any of us at least treasure, even revere 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:07.600 while we acknowledge its brokenness in practice and continue to 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.840 work hard to live by its norms. In the Constitutional 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:15.439 Convention of seventeen eighty seven, a third, a full third 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:20.000 of the delegates walked out, refusing to sign a document 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.480 that they regarded as an abomination. But the two thirds 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:28.200 one right, Yeah, And a lot of people are saying 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.560 these days, well, it's about a third of the people 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:36.320 who continue to believe that the twenty twenty election was stolen. Okay, 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.600 the two thirds can still win. I think one of 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.840 the things that's come to me. This will seem pretty 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.760 simple minded to some people, but those of us who 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:50.480 participated in the civil rights movements of the mid twentieth 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:55.000 century are very well acquainted with its famous anthem, we 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.640 shall overcome. About five seconds of thinking about the word, 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:03.000 overcome means we're going to win. We're going to put 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:08.240 that other position down, We're going to squash racism. We're 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:10.359 going to win this struggle. We're going to win it 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.920 by nonviolent means, but we are going to win. We 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:19.399 shall overcome. And I think the whole story of democracies slow, 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:27.400 slow progress toward a more perfect union, toward fullness, toward integrity, 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.080 and we're not there yet. But the whole story is 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.560 time after time after time, the beliefs that we shall overcome, 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.959 not long ago. Just one more thing about this. I 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.840 was listening to a speech given by a woman who 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.560 was the head of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.919 retired from that position after a very distinguished career. She 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:54.240 said something that's really stuck with me. She said, there 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.600 is no point of black history where the last words 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.840 in the story are and then we gave up. There 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.399 is no such story in the history of Black America. 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.080 And that's true, and the process of overcoming is going 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:12.160 on to this day. 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.720 Thank you for that. My despair just took a step down, 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.400 a couple steps down. Maybe I'm actually not like permanently 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.560 in despair. I just have moments, you know. I think 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.439 anybody looking at the world, almost at any time in 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.720 history would look at parts of it and be like, oh, 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.160 I can't. To use the modern phrase, let's change direction 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.280 a little bit. I want to read something that you wrote, 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.480 and I think it can act as framing for the 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.400 rest of the conversation. You use a term called being 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.080 fierce with reality, and you say, fierce with reality is 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.480 how I feel when I'm able to say, I am 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.080 that to which I gave short shrift and that to 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.520 which I attended. I am my descents into darkness and 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.560 my rising again into the light, my betrayals and my fidelities, 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.320 my failures and my successes. I am my ignorance and 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.120 my insight, my doubts and my convictions, my fears and 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:12.439 my hopes. And that seems to me also a pretty 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.320 good way of describing human wholeness. 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.200 Very much so, Eric, Yeah, I appreciate you reading that. Quote. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.959 I'd almost forgotten it, but it's nice to have In 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:24.200 this case, at least, it's nice to have my own 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:29.240 words come back to me. So one sort of summary 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:34.160 statement that I made somewhere that I try to live 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.879 by is that holdest does not mean perfection. Oldest means 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:44.720 embracing everything, including your imperfections, as part of who you 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:48.320 are and to the best of your ability. To show 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:51.840 up in the world whole is saying, yeah, I'm all 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.840 of the above. I am my successes, and I am 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:57.680 my screw ups. I am whatever light I am able 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.840 to shed, and I am the darkness that I carry 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:04.439 within me, which can sometimes engulf me. As you know, 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.440 we've talked before about my three descents into clinical depression, 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.680 which were in my forties and my sixties, I think 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:15.399 at age eighty four. There's another piece to this that 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:19.199 has come to me more recently that is sort of 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.880 another way of summing this theme up, which is that 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.320 these days, of course, I think about mortality. I think 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:31.359 about my own death more often than I did ten, twenty, thirty, 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.919 forty fifty years ago. When you can if you're healthy, 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.679 if you're lucky enough to be healthy, privileged enough to 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:41.120 be healthy, you can sort of pretend that that day 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:46.280 will never come. And I cannot imagine a sadder way 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:50.680 to die than to be lying there, drawing your last 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:56.240 breath and am thinking I never, in all my years on 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.359 this planet, I never showed up in the full wollness 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:06.320 of myself or anything vaguely approximating the fullness of myself. 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.800 I hit out. Whether it was because I was afraid, 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:13.360 or I didn't want to subject myself to the winds 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.800 and currents of change, whatever the reason might have been, 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.400 I can't imagine a sadder way to die than when 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:25.119 somebody is having to say to him or herself I 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:30.000 never showed up here as who I am, because ultimately 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.199 who one is is the gift you were born to 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:38.160 give to the world through your work, yes, through what 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:42.560 you say, how you conduct relationships, yes, but just in 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:44.480 the very quality of your being. 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.640 Yeah, I agree with you that that's a sad thing, 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:51.800 and it also to me there's all sorts of downsides 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.920 to not being as whole as possible, right, I think 0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.720 that part of wholeness is recognizing that you're not even 0:22:57.760 --> 0:22:59.440 whole a lot of the time, Like that's just how 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:02.600 we often can be but it seems to me that 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.600 my experience is if I'm not bringing as much of 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.480 myself to the table as often as I can, that 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.080 all the relationships in my life are not nearly as 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.840 whole and good as they could be. You know, Like, 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:21.760 that's one very direct downside of that, in addition to 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:23.159 the internal cost of it. 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:27.880 Yeah, showing up as yourself to the greatest extent possible, 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:32.000 and of course it's not done perfectly every moment of 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:36.600 every day. But imagine, for example, that you're in one 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:39.920 of those conversations we were talking about a moment ago, 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:44.080 and you find yourself getting highly critical of another person's 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:48.360 delusions as they seem to you. Imagine that you're present 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:52.760 in that conversation, was at least the self knowledge that 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:57.679 you yourself had brought into illusions at various stages in 0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:00.560 your life. Doesn't it stand to reason that if you 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:04.560 have that kind of self awareness of your wholeness, not 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.879 only the things you got right, but the things you 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.800 got wrong. You know, not only the times you had 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:14.280 measured twice and cut once because you cared about the data, 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:17.000 but the times when you just bought in on something 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:21.639 because it was the popular thing to believe. Doesn't it 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:24.840 stand a reason that you would give your conversation partner 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:30.080 some slack for that and perhaps be more compassionate, more tender, 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:36.720 more open, more vulnerable without jumping down their throat about 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:40.159 the nonsense that they're spouting, which is not unlike the 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:44.920 nonsense you once spouted. You know. Yeah, somebody once said 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:48.640 something that I think applies on many, many levels. This 0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:53.440 person was talking about interreligious dialogue, and he said, isn't 0:24:53.480 --> 0:24:57.040 it interesting how often in these dialogues we take the 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.359 best in our own religious tradition and lift up the 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:04.280 worst in the other person's traditions in order to make 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:08.240 an argument. Well, that's a great example of the failure 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:13.040 to embrace wholeness. Wholeness doesn't mean, you know, wearing your 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:16.440 heart on your sleeve about everything that's happening in your 0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:21.000 life at any given moment. Carl Young, the great psychologists, said, 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:24.840 the soul needs its secrets, and it does. The soul 0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:28.439 needs to work kind of very quietly in the dark 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:33.199 on you know, important matters that we wrestle with, existential 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:38.399 matters that shape our lives. But there's a lot that 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.720 we can hold on a more conscious level, a level 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:44.840 of self awareness that could really change our way of 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:48.159 being in the world and our way of dancing with 0:25:48.280 --> 0:25:49.639 others in the world. 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.520 Two things there you said that I really like. I mean. 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:13.000