1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Repsetts Podcast. My 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: guest today is Joe Boy, who has a new comprehensive 3 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: book on world music entitled In the Roots of Rhythm 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: remained Joe, Why this book? Why now? 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: Well? I wrote a book seventeen years ago called White 6 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: Bicycles Making Music in the nineteen sixties, and people would 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: ask me, so, when is the book on the nineteen 8 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: seventies coming, And I said never. I really didn't enjoy 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: the seventies. I have nothing really good to say about 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: the seventies. And the thing they kept nagging at me 11 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 2: was the fact that there's so many great books about 12 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: the music popular music of America, Britain, the Anglo American 13 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: whatever you know, from jazz to pop music to R 14 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: and B to country Peter Garounick Nick Toosh's, you know, 15 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 2: these great figures, but very little about all the music 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: from far away that has had such a huge impact 17 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: on our culture. And I just felt like, yeah, I 18 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 2: love that stuff. I love those stories, I love those characters, 19 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: and I had a vision. It was sort of there 20 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 2: are a few things that it kind of nagged at me, 21 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: all the misunderstandings that existed in America and Britain over Graceland, 22 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: how little people understood about the South African culture that 23 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 2: have produced that music. And I felt that was a 24 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: good example of the kind of thing that would be 25 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: fun to tell in the story. And then, you know, I, 26 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: as I talk in the preface, I've been always fascinated 27 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: by the way that Afro Cuban rhythms have crept into 28 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: American popular music, whether it's Dizzy Gillespie or Save the 29 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: Last Dance for Me, and what the backstory of that is, 30 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: which is just so fascinating. And I just thought, Okay, 31 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: those are two great hooks to start this book on. 32 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 2: And I didn't realize it. We can take me seventeen years, 33 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: but I got started and I just didn't stop until 34 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 2: I finished. 35 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: Okay, the book is very comprehensive in six hundred plus pages. 36 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: At some point, did you say I'm writing the comprehensive, 37 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: definitive book. 38 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's not really comprehensive and definitive in 39 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: the sense that it's quite a personal selection of what 40 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: I like, stories, I like, music I like, and there's 41 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: a lot of great music from around the world that 42 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 2: I don't even mention, you know, there's not even a 43 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: look in for Greek rebetico music, or Portuguese fato or 44 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: Souse Islands music, or Peruvian Andean music. But my criteria 45 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: was that I would stick to the hits, the music 46 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: which had really had an impact in Western so called 47 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: Western culture, meaning salsa, samba, reggae, so called gypsy music, 48 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: you know, all that the stuff that people know but 49 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: don't know the backstory. 50 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: Well, the book is broken down by region, and you 51 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: mentioned Graceland at first. You talk about Zulu and Graceland. 52 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: Can you tell us some of the misconceptions people have 53 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: about that. 54 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 2: Well, there were a few. I think the biggest one 55 00:03:54,880 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: to me was that when people embraced this record, which 56 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: they was quite right that they should. It's such a 57 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: wonderful record, and they felt this affection for this black 58 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: South African culture, and in a way it was kind 59 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: of in defiance of the white South Africans who were 60 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 2: imposing this imparti system who had imprisoned Nelson Mandela. Everybody 61 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: wanted Mandela freed from prison, and it became almost I 62 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 2: felt at the time, there was almost a feeling that 63 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: buying a Ladysmith Black Mombaso record was a way of 64 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: showing solidarity with the ANC and with Nelson Mandela. But 65 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: I knew a lot about South Africa and its politics, 66 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: and I knew that it wasn't like that that. In fact, 67 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: Ladysmith Black Mombaso is Zulu music, and the Zulus were 68 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: very much at war with the A and C. They 69 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: were being armed by the South African government to fight 70 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: the ANC, and most young ANC comrades preferred funk and disco. 71 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: They thought English lyrics were modern and progressive and Zulu 72 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: lyrics were regressive and tribal. And so there was a 73 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: kind of a disconnect between what we in the Northern 74 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: hemisphere felt about this music and what was really happening. 75 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: And you know, that was one thing, and then there were, 76 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: you know, lots of other things, including all this fuss 77 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,280 Speaker 2: about the breaking of the boycott. Everybody was upset. A 78 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: lot of people were upset with Paul Simon, but nobody 79 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: ever said boo about Athol Fuguard and all the great 80 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: plays that were running on Broadway and in the West End. 81 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: There were productions from the Market Theater in Johannesburg with 82 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 2: South African actors white and black, just like Graceland you know, 83 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: and nobody ever criticized that. So anyway, those are a 84 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: few of my little actses I had to grind as 85 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: I embarked on this. 86 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: Okay, we live in an era where they do a 87 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: TV special and the past is looked at through new eyes, 88 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: not only would TV series but other So now it's 89 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: almost forty years after Graceland. Do you think this imprimature, 90 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: This perception of Paul Simon going to South African ripping 91 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: off the culture still persists or what is the decades 92 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: that have ensued changed the perception of this record. 93 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: Well, I was a bit shocked when I mean, we're 94 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 2: not talking about twenty twenty four now, but if we 95 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: talk about I think it was around twenty ten there 96 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: was a documentary film about the making of Graceland. I 97 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: think it was called Under African Skies or something and 98 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: Paul actually the filmmaker got Paul to sit down with 99 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: somebody from the ANC and talk about the boycott by 100 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: you know, the whole thing, and the guy from the 101 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: A and C all these years later was still very hostile, 102 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: very bitter, very antagonistic towards Paul about what he had done. 103 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: And I think, you know, there are still people who 104 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 2: have that feeling about him. But I think, you know, 105 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,119 Speaker 2: the fact is that Graceland is a phenomenon. I write 106 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: in the book about going to see the Reunion tour 107 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: when it came to Hyde Park in London and two 108 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: thousand and twelve was it? I think, and walking through 109 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: this vast crowd, tens of thousands of people, hundreds of 110 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: thousands of people, everybody mouthing or singing the words, twenty somethings, 111 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 2: fifty somethings, teenagers, sixty somethings. You know, it just covered 112 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: all shades. And I think it's a good lesson about 113 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: the power of music that can is. That's why it 114 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: makes a lot of dictators and a lot of governments nervous, 115 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: because it transcends anything they can say against it. People 116 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 2: either love it or they don't, you know, And people 117 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: love that record. 118 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: Okay, this theme you see in the book where people 119 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: go to get a sound and like you say, you know, 120 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: the Zulus were playing this music, but the anc is 121 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: more than funk, etc. So what can you tell us 122 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: around the world where there's an authentic sound, yet the 123 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: people who are living there have moved into a more 124 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: modern zone. 125 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: Well, one of the best examples, in a way, is 126 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: in our own backyard. I remember being very conscious as 127 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 2: a teenager who was obsessed with blues. I started collecting 128 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: blues records when I was about eleven or twelve, and 129 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: it soon became clear that African American audiences had no 130 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 2: use for blues. You know, right, radio stations in Chicago 131 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: that in the late forties and the early fifties have 132 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: been playing Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf were no longer 133 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: playing Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf. And there was a 134 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: feeling that it was old fashioned. And there's a sense 135 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: that I get through much of the book. It's not 136 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: always it's not a universal truism, but it's a trend. 137 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: You can see that most cultures, particularly in poorer countries, 138 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: developing parts of what used to be called developing countries 139 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: in the world, love modernity. They want to be modern. 140 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 2: Modernity is a way out of the poverty, the backwardness, 141 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 2: the limitations on life that has been a hallmark of 142 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 2: their cultures. Whereas the middle class in the West has 143 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: seen enough of the future, they don't really necessarily like 144 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: the future so much. They're worried about social media, they're 145 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: worried about pollution. They're worried about, you know, all these 146 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: things that the modern world has brought. And they seek 147 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 2: out natural fibers, they seek out organic food, they seek 148 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: out authenticity wherever they can find it, and they seek 149 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: out roots music. And there's a disconnect sometimes between the 150 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: cultures that are seeking to modernize. There's a there's an 151 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: there's a moment I talk about in the Africa chapter 152 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: where this guy that I know who's a wonderful guy 153 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: who teaches music at the University of Akra and Ghana 154 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: and he specializes in highlight. He's written wonderful books about 155 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: high life music. And by the late eighties, none of 156 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: his students, none of the youth of Ghana had any 157 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: time for high life. And there was a kind of 158 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 2: big concert in the main square and they had before 159 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: the hip hop started, before the rap started. They had 160 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: a kind of oldies group of high life stars and 161 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 2: people through rocks, people through stuff and got them off stage. 162 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: The crowd was very hostile, and he went to one 163 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: of his students and he asked him to explain this, 164 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: and the students said, what has high life ever given us? 165 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: What is that tradition, that old way of this society. 166 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: The way it was, we end up with no job 167 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: prospects were very poor. As a country. Tradition just stifles us. 168 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: So why should we like traditional music? They loved the 169 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 2: cheapest Casio drum machine, hip hop and because it sounded 170 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: modern and it was implicitly rejecting the past. 171 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: Okay, I want to do a little cleanup work. You say, 172 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: essentially you have no time for the seventies, although some 173 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: of your greatest success producing records were in the seventies. 174 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: Shoot Out the Lights Nick. 175 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 2: Drake album eighties. That was eighties shoot Out the Lights eighties, 176 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: Nick Drake sixties. 177 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,239 Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me instead of instead of you correcting 178 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: me where I'm wrong, sorry, which I know which I am, 179 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: let me just make it simple. Why do you have 180 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: no time for the seventies? 181 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: I guess in terms of writing, I mean, obviously I 182 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 2: had a lot of good times in the seventies. I 183 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 2: made some records that I'm very proud of, Midnight at 184 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: the Oasis, the McGarrigle sisters took some of the may towles. 185 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 2: But I struggled the whole time. I was sort of 186 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 2: my own life was torn between trying to be a 187 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 2: film producer. I've made a documentary about Jimmy Hendrix in 188 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two, and I thought that made me a 189 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: film producer, and I started developing projects, real dramas, you know, 190 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: and it was totally frustrating, and I never got anywhere 191 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: with any of them. And look is standing back and 192 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: looking at the arc of our culture, musical culture, and 193 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 2: the way music and culture interacted. I h the thing 194 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: that stands out for me about the seventies, particularly the 195 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: late the end of the seventies, the climax of that 196 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: decade was disco and punk, which were kind of implicit 197 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: in their nature or in many of the spokesmen for 198 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 2: those types of music was a rebuke to the hippie 199 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: music that I had been part of. You know, they 200 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: were sort of against psychedelia. They were against the kind 201 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: of virtuosity of you know, all the great groups from 202 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: the late sixties, early seventies, you know people. You know, 203 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: there was a kind of fetish for the machine beat 204 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: of disco, for the anonymous sex that it kind of 205 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: was a soundtrack for. And punk was you know, they 206 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: hated anything to do with you know, kind of great 207 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: long guitar solos, or great saxophone solos, or delving into 208 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: the roots of rhythm and blues and writing songs around that. 209 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: So I didn't feel that I had a connection that 210 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: would lead to a nice book. You know, I didn't 211 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: have a story to tell in the sixties. You know, 212 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: my story in the sixties of being a fan of 213 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 2: folk music and blues and jazz, and then getting to 214 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: work at Newport and being there when Dylan went electric, 215 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: and then producing Pink Floyd and running the UFOL Club. 216 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: This was all part of the story of the era. 217 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 2: So my story had a kind of resonance. But I 218 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: thought in the seventies my story was completely out of 219 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 2: tune with what was happening. 220 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: Okay, you're highly educated, you went to Harvard. Just speaking 221 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: with you, you're an intellectual. I'm going to be point 222 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: blank here. This tends to be a dumb business. They're 223 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: more smart people actually who are making records. But there 224 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: are a lot of people uneducated who are just sort 225 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: of channeling God. As they say, you have all these theories. 226 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: Who do you talk to that can talk on this level? 227 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: Well, hopefully everybody who reads the book. 228 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm telling you about your everyday life. Yes, you've done 229 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: a great thing with the book. 230 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: Come on, every so many people that I've worked with, 231 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 2: most people I worked with, I can have great conversations with. 232 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't tell you. 233 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: I used to. 234 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: Spend hours on the phone in the late seventies and 235 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 2: the early eighties and even in the nineties with Kate McGarrigle. 236 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: You know who's Rufus Wainwright's mom. She and I both 237 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: loved reading history, and she was a huge fan of 238 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: books of history, and you know she I'm particularly Canadian history, 239 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: you know, and she turned me on to great writers 240 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,719 Speaker 2: of history about the missionaries heading west across the Great Lakes, 241 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: and the fur trappers and the discovery of the Mississippi Basin, 242 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 2: which I use in this book. You know, some of 243 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 2: those things started in those conversations with Kate McGarrigle. Richard Thompson, 244 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 2: you know, he's a very thoughtful guy. He's a very 245 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 2: uh you know he he you know, he's pursued a 246 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: lot of spiritual quests in his life through Sufi'sism and 247 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: things like this, and he can talk to you about 248 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 2: Duke Ellington and Django rein Hart and what it all means. 249 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: And I don't know. I mean, I think, uh, I've 250 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 2: always found musicians to be very thoughtful people, and I 251 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 2: think particularly I mean one musician who I have huge 252 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 2: admiration for that I'm the one musician that I ever 253 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 2: felt frustrated because we could never get a real conversation 254 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: going was Tutz Hibbert. When I worked with him and 255 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: I went to see him in live performances in years afterwards, 256 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 2: I'd go back backstage and you know, he he I 257 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: don't know what it was. I mean, I think he's 258 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: smoked a lot, but his lyrics demonstrate such an extraordinary 259 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: intelligence and emotional intelligence and sort of sensitivity to nuance 260 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 2: and personal relationships. But I could never reach him on 261 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: that level in a kind of one to one conversation. 262 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 2: But you know Haesus Alamanni who was the leader of Cubanesemo, 263 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: or taj Mahal or Toumani Diabate, or you know people 264 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 2: like that, or you know that those artists were people 265 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: that I could sit down and have a drink with 266 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 2: and talk to endlessly about music, and not just in 267 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: the kind of limited or surface kind of way. I 268 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 2: would say, all of them are intelligent people. 269 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: Okay, let me do another clean up you talk about 270 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: collecting blues records at age eleven and twelve. You know, 271 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: there's the blues revival when you're in college and people 272 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: talk about looking up the old blues men in the 273 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: phone book who might be doing something other than playing music. 274 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: Eleven and twelve. How did you get turned on to 275 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: blues music? 276 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: Well, it was an extraordinary event, one of those lucky 277 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: moments in my life. I had two grandmothers, obviously, like everybody. 278 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: One grandmother, my father's mother, had been a concert pianist 279 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 2: when she was young, and then taught concert pianists later 280 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: on in her life, and had studied in Europe and 281 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 2: lived in Berlin and Vienna and all this. And she 282 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: was very musical, but she had no interest in anything 283 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: but classical music. I could never talk to her about 284 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 2: jazz or popular music. My other grandmother, my mother's mother, 285 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 2: knew nothing about music, didn't care, didn't listen, but she 286 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: was aware that I, or I think my mother had 287 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 2: told her how much I loved music, and that I 288 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: was sort of listening to my mother's record She had 289 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: Carmen Miranda and Edith Paff records and stuff HM and 290 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 2: so one birthday or Christmas, I can't remember which. My 291 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 2: mother's mother went into a record store and said, I 292 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: have a grandson who likes music. I think it's kind 293 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: of jazz or something like that that he likes. What 294 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: have you got? And so he handed her this record 295 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: called the RCA Encyclopedia of Classic Jazz. It was one 296 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: single disc. She packed it up, said it to me, 297 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: it's an unbelievable record. It has Sugarfoot stomps Fletcher Henderson, 298 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: it has Black and Tan Fantasy by Duke Ellington, it 299 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 2: has a great Armstrong track, it has a great Sydney 300 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 2: Beschet track. And in the middle of all these great 301 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 2: jazz tracks, as I played through the second side, like 302 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: track three or track four, all of a sudden, it's 303 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: sleepy John Estes working Man Blues. And I was just staggered. 304 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: I'd never heard of anything like it. I played it 305 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: over and over again, and you know, I started listening 306 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 2: to Led Belly and I started listening to you know, 307 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: there were not that many records around, but there was 308 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 2: Led Belly was around, and I don't know Barbara Dane 309 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 2: and I don't know there were people like that in 310 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: the mid fifties that where you could pierce the you know, 311 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,239 Speaker 2: pull back the curtain a little bit into blues. And 312 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 2: then it just expanded as I went along, you know, 313 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: the ripples spread out, and I got more and more 314 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 2: understanding of what this music represented. And when I was sixteen, 315 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: I discovered a book. I don't know how, I think, 316 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: I'm not sure how I even heard about it, but 317 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: I went in I ordered it. It was a book 318 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: by Samuel Charters. It was called The Country Blues, and 319 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 2: it had stories about Sleepy John Esty's and the Memphis 320 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: Drug Band and all these people. But the central character, 321 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 2: or a character whose story ran through the whole book, 322 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 2: was a guy called Ralph Peer, who was a record 323 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 2: producer working for Victor Records and going through the South 324 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: and renting hotel rooms and setting up a recording gear 325 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: and recording blues singers and country singers. And I remember 326 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 2: thinking to myself, now that's what I'd like to do. 327 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: Okay, when you get to Harvard, are you the progenitor 328 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: of the blues revival? Or do you get there and 329 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: find like minded people. 330 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: I got there and found like minded people. Before I 331 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: got there, my brother, who's two years younger, but he 332 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 2: his interest wasn't two years behind mine, He was right 333 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: neck and neck with me all the way, collecting records 334 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: more avidly than I did. And he met some kid 335 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: who was halfway between. It was in one year older 336 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: than him, one year younger than me, called Jeff Muldor, 337 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: and we all lived in Princeton, New Jersey, and Jeff 338 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 2: Muldor later went on to be the vocalist for Paul 339 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: Butterfield Blues Band and for the Question Jug Band and 340 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 2: doing lots of great solo stuff. The three of us 341 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 2: used to spend weekends saying, Okay, this Saturday, we're going 342 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: to listen to nothing but Lonnie Johnson records, or we're 343 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: going to listen to nothing but Book of White records 344 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: or jazz, or we're going to listen to nothing but 345 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: Fletcher Henderson. And so we had a very intense sort 346 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 2: of self education. But then we got to when I 347 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: got to Harvard, I discovered the Club forty seven, which 348 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: was the where Joan Baez used to sing twice a week. 349 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: But on the nights when she wasn't singing, there were 350 00:25:55,119 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 2: people like Eric von Schmidt and Rolf Kahan were singing, 351 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 2: who were you know, local bohemians who loved blues and 352 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: weird music from different parts of the world and sang 353 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: it and had collections. So I was like a kid 354 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: in a candy store, you know. I was like, Wow, 355 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: can I come and hear your collection? So it wasn't 356 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 2: I wasn't really a pioneer. I ended up bringing Sleepy 357 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 2: John Estys and Big Joe Williams to Harvard for concerts 358 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: and that was sort of what started my career in 359 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 2: a way, you know, was that step into the world 360 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: of professional events. 361 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: Okay, Eric Fonschmidt, the other people Club forty seven were 362 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: folkies really, and you're talking Sleepy John ASTs etc. As 363 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: a blues guy, you bring them to Harvard? Are they 364 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: playing music when you bring them to Harvard? And is 365 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: anybody else looking for these old bluesmen? Yeah? 366 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: There was a guy called Dick Waterman who ended up 367 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 2: managing Son House. He was around Harvard Square in those days. 368 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 2: There was a lot of it going on. You know. 369 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: There were and people I would later discover were doing 370 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 2: things that I wasn't aware of, Dick Spotswood and Tom 371 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 2: Costner and I'm not Tom Costner anyway. There was a 372 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 2: rapidly expanding community and one of the things that, as 373 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 2: you say, they were folkys. But what I discussed and 374 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: when I went to Harvard, I had a very negative 375 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: attitude about folk music. I loved Lead Belly records, but 376 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: I didn't really like Cisco Houston and Pete Seeger and 377 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 2: people like that much. And I didn't like the Weavers. 378 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: I didn't like Ronnie Gilbert's voice. The whole idea of 379 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: sort of middle class white people strumming guitars and singing 380 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: folk music seemed a bit silly to me. And but 381 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 2: when I first heard Eric von Schmidt and Rolf Khan, 382 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 2: I realized that there was a whole different esthetic going 383 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: on here. That the people that I didn't like were 384 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 2: the New York people, where folk music was a political thing. 385 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: It was music of the people. And the way you 386 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: communicated music of the people was by finding like Spanish 387 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: Civil War song, a miners song from Yorkshire, a cowboys song, 388 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: a South African song, and singing them all in the 389 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: same kind of strum, the same kind of way to 390 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: unify and make it accessible. You know. Pete Seeger had this, 391 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: which is a bit ironic because Pete Seger was a 392 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: brilliant musician, a fantastic virtuoso, but he wanted to simplify 393 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: music and make every song singable around a campfire or 394 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 2: at a picket line. What I found, which is an 395 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: attitude that I sort of didn't feel connected to. But 396 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: when I went to Harvard Square, I found these people 397 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: who had the opposite idea, which was, let's not make 398 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: it accessible, Let's make it hard. Let's find out exactly 399 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: how Doc Bogs picked his banjo. Very complicated, weird tunings, 400 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 2: weird fingerings, let's decode that. Let's figure it out and 401 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 2: spend six months locked in our rooms smoking a joint 402 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: figuring out how Doc Bogs did that, and then dazzle 403 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 2: people by going on stage at the Club forty seven 404 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: and playing that way or book a White with his 405 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: slide guitar. And that attitude, which I found prevalent in Boston, 406 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 2: was much more empathetic. I was much more empathetic with 407 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: that point of view. And I discovered the Harry Smith anthologies, 408 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: which everybody in Boston had, and which Bob Dylan writes 409 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: about in his book Chronicles about how that changed his life. 410 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: Hearing Harry Smith's anthology of American folk Music, he suddenly 411 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: dove in the deep end of authenticity and discovered a 412 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: whole different aesthetic from the esthetic that he originally embraced 413 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: as a folk singer of protest song and the kind 414 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 2: of folk coffee house folk movement. So yeah, I mean 415 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 2: it was very interesting sociological divide and musicological divide. 416 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 3: Political okay, jumping across the pond. 417 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: You have the people in Liverpool, it's support the import 418 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: American records. They're influenced by blues records. Since you spent 419 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: so much time in England, this may be a little 420 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: out of your purview. Are they going through the same 421 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: process as you or are they just listening to certain 422 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: acts and being inspired by them. 423 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: The process in Britain was a bit different. In America, 424 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: it all got caught up in these politics that came 425 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: to a head in nineteen sixty five at Newport acoustic 426 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: music versus electric music, and people in America were very 427 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: conflicted about Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf because they were 428 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: on the same label as Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley. 429 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: They played electric guitars the same way, and so people 430 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 2: had much more time. The Newport Folk Festival crowd revered Mississippi, 431 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: John hurt Son House, Robert Pete Williams. You know all 432 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: that in Britain that split never happened, at least with blues. 433 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: People loved Big Bill Brumsey, they loved Muddy Waters, they 434 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 2: loved Lead Belly, they loved Howling Wolf, mostly from records 435 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 2: occasional visits. And that was one of the reasons that 436 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: I ended up staying in Britain was that when I 437 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 2: arrived there in the spring of sixty four as a 438 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: tour manager with Muddy Waters and Cis Rosetta Tharp and 439 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: Brownie McGinn Sunny Terry, nobody made any distinction between Brownie 440 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,719 Speaker 2: and Sonny, who were acoustic blues men, and Muddy who 441 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 2: had his electric guitar in his electric band. And the 442 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 2: first night in nineteen sixty four Spring of sixty four 443 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: Bristol Colston Hall packed almost two thousand people queuing outside 444 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: the dressing room after the show for Muddy Water's autograph. 445 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: And this was such a revelation to me. You know 446 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 2: that these people just loved this music. They didn't have 447 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: any of the issues that people had in America about 448 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 2: being conflicted about whether it was authentic or acoustic or electric, 449 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: or commercial or uncommercial. They just loved it. And I 450 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: think that was the process that has been chronicled endlessly 451 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: of Eric Clapton and Mick Jagger and John Mayle and 452 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: all these people absorbing American blues, bringing it across the 453 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 2: Atlantic to America and then saint you American's listen, this 454 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 2: is yours and triggering an explosion of interest in America 455 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,359 Speaker 2: in the blues. But we had to be led there 456 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 2: by the British. 457 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: How do you get that gig? As tour manager? 458 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,959 Speaker 2: The concerts I put on with Sleepy John, Esty's Brann 459 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: and Big Joe Williams. 460 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: I mean, just one second, was that with your money 461 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: or the college's money? 462 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 2: My money? Because what happened was I went long story short, 463 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 2: I got into Harvard on an advanced placement, so I 464 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 2: only had three years I had to do for my 465 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 2: bachelor's and I thought they gave me an edge, and 466 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 2: I took a year half year off and I worked 467 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 2: for a record company in California contemporary good time jazz, 468 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: and on the way back East, I convinced a label 469 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 2: in Chicago and another label in New York to let 470 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: me distribute them in Boston, and so I became a 471 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 2: distributor and I had a warehouse. The warehouse was under 472 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 2: the bed in my dorm and I would go out 473 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 2: to the Harvard Coop and a couple of other shops 474 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 2: around Harvard Square and more in downtown Boston and sell 475 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 2: these records and made a little money. And I was 476 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 2: completely I was completely over optimistic. But I would take 477 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 2: whatever money I had and I would say, Okay, that'll 478 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 2: buy me the bus ticket to get Big Joe Williams 479 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: from Chicago to Boston, and then I'll sell a bunch 480 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 2: of tickets and I'll be able to pay him. And 481 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 2: I just about did. But it was a very close 482 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: front thing. But it was all kind of speculative and crazy, 483 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: and but I did pull it off. And Manny Greenhill, 484 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 2: who was the big concert promoter in Boston, manager of 485 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: Joan Biaz and the kind of gonzamacher of folk music 486 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: in Boston, he noticed and he was bringing Jesse Fuller 487 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 2: to Boston to play a folk festival, do a gig 488 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 2: at a coffee house, and do a record for prestige. 489 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: And he called me up and offered me twenty five 490 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: bucks to look after Jesse Fuller for a weekend. So 491 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 2: I did, and I think he thought I did a 492 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:57,320 Speaker 2: good job. So when he then booked Brandon McGinn's Sonny Terry, 493 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 2: who he also managed on to join George Ween's blues 494 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 2: gospel caravan going to England in the spring of sixty four. 495 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 2: And I asked Manny if he had any ideas about it, 496 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: what I could do to keep my body and soul 497 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 2: together if I went to Europe. He picked up the 498 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: phone called George. He said, if you found a tour 499 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: manager for that show yet? And then he said to me, 500 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 2: can you be in New York tomorrow morning at ten o'clock? 501 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 2: And I said yeah, And I talked to George for 502 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 2: half an hour and he said, there's a telephone and 503 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 2: a chair. Go get on the phone to Chicago and 504 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,879 Speaker 2: hire a bass player. And I had a job. 505 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: Okay, fake it till you make it, but there are 506 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: some skills in being a tour manager. So how was 507 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: your experience? 508 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: It was great. The first day we had a day off. 509 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 2: The first day the musicians arrived and I assembled. I 510 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 2: persuaded the tour agency in England to get us a 511 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,720 Speaker 2: rehearsal room. I got everybody there and I said, okay, 512 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,840 Speaker 2: I got some ideas for this show. How we're going 513 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 2: to do this show? I want Otis. You can play 514 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 2: gospel piano. Otis Span You'll play with Sister Rosetta and 515 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: Brownie McGhee. You're a great guitar player. You'll play with 516 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: cousin Joe. That'll work great, and you know, and they 517 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: all looked at me like, white boy, get out of here. 518 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 2: You know, we're trying. This is a day off. Just 519 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 2: don't don't bust our ass for all this shit. And 520 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 2: so I was kind of humiliated. But then over the 521 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 2: course of a two and a half week tour, little 522 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 2: by little, they started doing all the things I had suggested. 523 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 2: And the last concert was one of the greatest nights 524 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: of my life because they did everything that I'd originally 525 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: proposed to them to do, and it was fantastic and 526 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 2: they all loved each other by the end. What I 527 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 2: did I didn't realize that first night was that they didn't 528 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 2: know each other. I had that sort of naive outsiders 529 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 2: thing of well, they're all blues singers, they must know 530 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: each other, you know. But Money was from South side 531 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: of Chicago, One World, Brownie and Sonny were from Coffee 532 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 2: House Circuit, East Coast. Sister Rosetta was from the gospel scene, 533 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 2: cousin Joe was like a fixture on Bourbon Street in 534 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 2: New Orleans. They were all from different worlds. They'd never 535 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 2: met many of them, some of them had, but by 536 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 2: the end they just adored each other. There were tears 537 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 2: at the airport when the tour ended. 538 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: And. 539 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 2: It was one of the great I mean, I sometimes 540 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 2: choke or sort of joke that if I look at 541 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 2: my life in my career, that was the peak and 542 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 2: it's kind of been downhill from there. You know that 543 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 2: last night in Brighton, Okay. 544 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 1: Many of these people did not achieve commercial success due 545 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: to the degree they did at all. Until this point 546 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: in the middle sixties. Did you find that these people 547 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: were bitter as a result of their experience or they 548 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: were so experienced you know, I've had this experience with 549 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: some musicians even had fame in their youth. They're going 550 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 1: through the motions, you know, this is a payday, next city. 551 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: What were they like? 552 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 2: There was so much difference differentiation among them. I think 553 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 2: Brownie McGhee, who had a very bad limp and he'd 554 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 2: somehow been put in this duo with Sonny Terry, who 555 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 2: was blind, and so he had to kind of look 556 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 2: after Sonny and he had this limp made it hard 557 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 2: for him to get around. He was overweight, and I 558 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: think he spent a lot of time with chuckun and 559 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 2: jiving white promoters and folk people, and he was kind 560 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 2: of bitter. Muddy Waters had been a star in Chicago. 561 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 2: He was a very dignified, very accomplished man who really 562 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 2: appreciated the adulation he got in Britain and was in 563 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 2: a kind of quiet, dignified way enjoying it. Sister Ozetta 564 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 2: had been a star three or four times in her life, 565 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 2: up and down in the thirties with Lucky Millinder, then 566 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 2: in the gospel scene. Then she toured France a bunch 567 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 2: of times in the fifties. And she had high heels. 568 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 2: She had a very expensive red wig. She had a 569 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 2: fur collar on her coat. She lorded it over everybody 570 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 2: until she got to know them and then realized how 571 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 2: wonderful they were, And you know, couldn't have been sweeter 572 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 2: to everybody. But she had a kind of persona that 573 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:22,720 Speaker 2: she projected as a woman of the world and loved 574 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:29,760 Speaker 2: the adulation the Audience's cousin Joe Pleasant, was such a character. 575 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 2: I used to buy the International Herald Tribune every morning, 576 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 2: and he used to grab it from me and read 577 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 2: it and then walk up and down the aisle of 578 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 2: the bus as we were traveling from Bristol to Lester 579 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 2: or whatever, telling everybody in the whole tour what had 580 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 2: been happening in the world that day, and then quizzing 581 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: them about it. And he just was an ebulliant, terrific 582 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 2: who everybody adored. And so it was a it was 583 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 2: a mixture, you know of and Reverend Gary Davis, of course, 584 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 2: was a fantastic character who blind old, didn't look after himself, 585 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 2: didn't have you know. He was you know, ash from cigarettes, 586 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 2: you know, or from pipe tobacco, all up and down 587 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 2: his shirt, eating eggs at breakfast with his hand and 588 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 2: dripping yoke onto his shirt front. But he was so 589 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:42,359 Speaker 2: witty and so funny. And one day somebody gave us 590 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 2: some dope in Liverpool and somebody you know, me and 591 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 2: the other there was. I had a guy who was 592 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 2: supposed to be there with one of the Blue singers 593 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 2: who actually got sick and didn't come. But this guy 594 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 2: Tom what's his name, Tom something rather, who had helped 595 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 2: find Mississippi on her he came as my helper and 596 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:05,879 Speaker 2: he'd loved. You know, we were sitting in the back 597 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 2: with Otis Van, you know, smoking a joint. Gary you know, 598 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 2: started yelling from his seat, give me some of that, 599 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 2: Give me some of that. And so he would he 600 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 2: would have, you know, make sure that Tom would stuff 601 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,240 Speaker 2: dope into his pipe. And he was just a character. 602 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 2: And so it was every everything was different, everybody was different. 603 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 2: It was a cross section of a wonderful slice of humanity. 604 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 2: And that you can't make generalities. 605 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 1: Really, what did your parents do for a living? 606 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 2: My father went to Harvard but never graduated, was convinced 607 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 2: that he had he'd been fascinated by He studied economics 608 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 2: at Harvard as well as being on the heart Crimson, 609 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 2: and he ended up starting local newspapers and then local 610 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 2: he started the first local credit card in America in 611 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 2: the Delaware Valley, and he went bankrupt, and eventually that 612 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 2: led by some circuitous route to MasterCard. Not that he 613 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 2: owned a piece of it, but he kind of inspired it, 614 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,560 Speaker 2: and he ended up putting out local telephone directories. He 615 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 2: was very frustrated because he had big ideas about how 616 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 2: to reshape the world's economy through local circular feedback of money. 617 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 2: That stayed in local communities and ways to accomplish that, 618 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 2: but he never really got to do it. And my mother, 619 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 2: because my father went bankrupt and couldn't didn't make much money. 620 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,320 Speaker 2: She had go to work and she ended up running 621 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 2: the photography department at the Princeton University store. And so 622 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 2: she sold cameras and film to Robert Oppenheimer and Albert 623 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 2: Einstein and you know, David Wigner and some of these 624 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 2: brilliant people who were at the Institute for Advanced Study. 625 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,319 Speaker 2: They all loved her and came and bought film and 626 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 2: cameras from her. And she was a wonderful a stalwart 627 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 2: of the Democratic Party in Princeton, New Jersey. And that's it. 628 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 2: They were. I had one brother, and you know, we 629 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 2: we My parents divorced. They didn't have a great marriage, 630 00:46:50,680 --> 00:47:00,279 Speaker 2: but they stayed very friendly. And my brother went to 631 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 2: Columbia and went to law school, became a lawyer in Albuquerque, 632 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,839 Speaker 2: New Mexico. And he went three thousand miles one way. 633 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,399 Speaker 2: I went three thousand miles the other way. 634 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,760 Speaker 1: So what do your parents think about an Ivy league 635 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 1: educated son who is pursuing, you know, this parapatetic life 636 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: in music? 637 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,080 Speaker 2: When I graduated from high school, which was actually a 638 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 2: boarding school, my father wanted me desperately to get into Harvard, 639 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,840 Speaker 2: and he somehow managed between a scholarship and borrowing money 640 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 2: from a wealthy friend of ours, got me through this 641 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 2: boarding school, which I didn't really like, but anyway. He 642 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 2: came to pick me up after graduation and we were 643 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 2: driving back to Princeton and he asked me what I 644 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 2: was my idea about Harvard and what I was going 645 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,280 Speaker 2: to do, and what my aim was what I wanted 646 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,800 Speaker 2: to become. And I told him I wanted to be 647 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 2: a record producer. And he said he had no idea 648 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 2: what that was. And he said, okay. Well I tried 649 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,360 Speaker 2: to explain it to him. He said, no, no, forget that. 650 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 2: Just tell me how many people in the world today 651 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:27,319 Speaker 2: are doing this job in the way that you imagine 652 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 2: yourself doing it. And I said I didn't really know much. 653 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 2: I said, well, probably fifteen or twenty. And he said, okay, 654 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 2: So that's the target you're aiming for. That, that small 655 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 2: bullseye is what you're aiming for. And I said yeah, 656 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 2: and he said, and you're comfortable with that? I said yeah. 657 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 2: He said okay, and he was cool. He was relaxed, 658 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,359 Speaker 2: and my mother never stopped being supportive anything I did. 659 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 2: She was very supportive. And you know, I brought the 660 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,799 Speaker 2: Incredible String Band to play a new in Princeton at 661 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,839 Speaker 2: a concert, and my mother and my father came to 662 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 2: the concert and I remember looking over. It was a 663 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 2: kind of get together after the show. And I remember 664 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,000 Speaker 2: looking at Robin Williamson from the Incredible String Band. Who 665 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 2: was this, you know, complete William Blake, psychedelic William Blake 666 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 2: character from Edinburgh. I looked over and he and my 667 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 2: father are deep in conversation in the corner, and I thought, cool. 668 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 1: Okay, once you graduate from college, are you self sustaining 669 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 1: or do you have to call your parents from money? 670 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:50,359 Speaker 2: I had to call my parents for money twice in 671 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:58,640 Speaker 2: my life, A little bit of money, I you know. 672 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,720 Speaker 2: I went, I got a job. We're opening the Electra 673 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,880 Speaker 2: office in London, and then I got fired a year later. 674 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: Ooh, I'm interested. Why did you get fired? 675 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,839 Speaker 2: I think it was a combination of reasons. I think 676 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 2: Jack Holtzman was the owner of Electra, the guy who 677 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,719 Speaker 2: started as his label. He had hired Paul Rothschild, who 678 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 2: was my friend who had come I had invited up 679 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 2: to Newport, who did the sound for sixty five when 680 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 2: Dylan went electric. I was the stage manager, he was 681 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 2: the sound guy, and I'd helped him sign the Butterfield band. 682 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:48,160 Speaker 2: I'd helped him find the Butterfield band. So he had 683 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,240 Speaker 2: this agenda that he owed me one or he wanted 684 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 2: me to come into the to Electra, and he and 685 00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,840 Speaker 2: I had been to England a couple of times, and 686 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 2: I told Holtzman when I met him that Electra had 687 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 2: a very low profile and nobody knew much about the 688 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:10,520 Speaker 2: label blah blah blah, and so Rothschild was able to 689 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,680 Speaker 2: convince Holtsman to hire me to go to London to 690 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 2: open the London office with it just a little desk 691 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:23,759 Speaker 2: in the corner of the distributor's office, and m I 692 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,880 Speaker 2: think the two of them had different ideas about what 693 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,319 Speaker 2: I was doing. Holtsman's idea was that I was going 694 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 2: to promote phil Oaks, Tom Paxston, Judy Collins and then Butterfield. 695 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 2: I My idea, encouraged by Paul Rothschild, was that I 696 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:47,080 Speaker 2: was going to find talent. And so I think at 697 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,400 Speaker 2: a certain point Holtsman got very nervous with this crazed 698 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 2: kid with the Electra checkbook and walking around London offering 699 00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:02,359 Speaker 2: people deals even though he loved he did he I mean, 700 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 2: the Incredible String Band. I had to play him a 701 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:13,359 Speaker 2: track and I remember him saying, yeah, Okay, they're pretty good. 702 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,360 Speaker 2: You can sign them, but don't spend more than fifty pounds, 703 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 2: and then I had to. Then some other label offered 704 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,399 Speaker 2: them seventy five pounds, and I went back and offered 705 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 2: them one hundred pounds without asking Holtzman and that sort 706 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,080 Speaker 2: of thing got up his nose. And I think he 707 00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,840 Speaker 2: also hated the mess that I had on my desk. 708 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,640 Speaker 2: Whenever he come to London, he always walk in and 709 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,840 Speaker 2: give me this scathing look because of all the clutter 710 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 2: that was on the top of my desk, and I 711 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 2: think it just got too much for him. 712 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:50,799 Speaker 1: Okay, A, were you surprised when you're fired? B how'd 713 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 1: you handle it? See? What did you then do? 714 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 2: I guess I wasn't entirely surprised. I was a little disappointed, 715 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:05,920 Speaker 2: but I think tension had been building the first thing 716 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,320 Speaker 2: I did. I'd already recorded the first Incredible String Band album, 717 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,120 Speaker 2: but it hadn't been released. Yet, but I knew it 718 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,440 Speaker 2: was coming out shortly, and I really knew. I felt 719 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:21,720 Speaker 2: it's going to do well. So I went to see 720 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,840 Speaker 2: Robin and Mike and I said, I'm leaving Electra. I 721 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,200 Speaker 2: want to stay in London. If I stay in London, 722 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:33,800 Speaker 2: can I manage you guys? And they said sure. And 723 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 2: then I called George Ween. I said, do you need 724 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 2: somebody on your autumn jazz tour of Europe? He said, yeah, 725 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,759 Speaker 2: you know, meet me in Paris on October tenth. And 726 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,319 Speaker 2: so I went back on George's payroll, which was by 727 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,880 Speaker 2: the standards. I was living in London well. I was 728 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 2: sleeping on a friend's couch supported me pretty well for 729 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 2: a month month and a half, and then my friend 730 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:15,759 Speaker 2: Hoppy Hopkins, who was a great photographer, decided to throw 731 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,799 Speaker 2: it all over and start the International Times, which is 732 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:23,239 Speaker 2: the first underground newspaper in London, and suddenly he had 733 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:27,360 Speaker 2: no income, I had no income. We went out for 734 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:31,160 Speaker 2: a cheap curry one night and came up with the 735 00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 2: idea to under National Times. That had a great launch 736 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,279 Speaker 2: party with Pink Floyd and Soft Machine, who were both 737 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 2: unknown at the time, playing and psychedelic lights everywhere and 738 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,439 Speaker 2: great crowd, and we said, let's do something like that 739 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:52,840 Speaker 2: but charge admission, and so we started the UFO Club 740 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:54,720 Speaker 2: and that's how we paid our rent. 741 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: To start a club takes money. Where'd you get the money? 742 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:05,120 Speaker 2: No, didn't we We didn't actually rent a premises. We 743 00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,480 Speaker 2: knocked on the door of an Irish dance hall in 744 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,640 Speaker 2: Tottencourt Road and we noticed that they were dark on Fridays. 745 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 2: They had events Katie dances on Thursdays and Saturdays, and 746 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,799 Speaker 2: so we said, we'll pay fifteen pounds for Friday and 747 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,560 Speaker 2: he said if he got the concession to sell soft drinks. 748 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,160 Speaker 2: It was a deal. So all we needed was fifteen 749 00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:35,200 Speaker 2: pounds to pay and we didn't even have to pay 750 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:39,280 Speaker 2: them in advance, so we just printed some leaflets handed 751 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,080 Speaker 2: them out on Portobello Road. The place was full the 752 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 2: first night. Pink Floyd was the group and Hoppey had 753 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,520 Speaker 2: some friends with psychedelic lights and people ca You know, 754 00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,560 Speaker 2: it wasn't absolutely packed, but a lot of people came 755 00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,000 Speaker 2: and all the freaks looked around and went wow. We 756 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:00,600 Speaker 2: never realized there were many of us. 757 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,880 Speaker 1: Let's go back. You're steeped in this blues world. That's 758 00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,040 Speaker 1: it its own people don't understand that the record business 759 00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,840 Speaker 1: was a much smaller business at the time. So you 760 00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,480 Speaker 1: had the Top forty business, which I'm sure you were 761 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,200 Speaker 1: aware of but had no interest in. 762 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 2: Oh I was very interested. I loved it when I 763 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,560 Speaker 2: was When Jeff Muldor and my brother and I would 764 00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 2: play obscure blues records every Saturday afternoon for six hours. 765 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,640 Speaker 2: We then get our good trousers on and go to 766 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,960 Speaker 2: a party and dance to Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley 767 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,880 Speaker 2: and dance to do Wop and dance to Ray Charles, 768 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 2: and we love that stuff. We were You know, that 769 00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 2: was a great time for Top forty. 770 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,200 Speaker 1: Let me put it differently. Prior to the Beatles, we 771 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 1: had the Four Seasons in the Beach Ways to survived 772 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,239 Speaker 1: the Beatles, almost nobody else did. There were a lot 773 00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 1: of acts that even at the time, didn't get that 774 00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,000 Speaker 1: much respect. Be in Bobby Rydell. There were people who 775 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:06,920 Speaker 1: are now looked fondly upon Bobby Darren. To get to 776 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:11,280 Speaker 1: my ultimate question, the Beatles come along and they break 777 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 1: a year earlier in the UK, but they break in America. 778 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:17,360 Speaker 1: In the Beinia sixty four, there's a whole British invasion 779 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: are you thumbs up or thumbs down? 780 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,400 Speaker 2: Totally thumbs up. I was. I loved the Beatles. I 781 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:31,640 Speaker 2: thought they were incredible, And you know, that was, in 782 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,080 Speaker 2: a way one of the another part of that divide 783 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,160 Speaker 2: that I talked about opening up in the folk scene 784 00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,200 Speaker 2: in Boston. I would go to parties after the Club 785 00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,480 Speaker 2: forty seven closed in somebody's apartment and you'd have a 786 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:50,120 Speaker 2: bunch of folkies banjo's, mandolin's guitars playing She's a Woman. 787 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 2: People loved the Beatles, but you know, I think Alan 788 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 2: Omax and Theodore Bicquel and the establishment figures that ran 789 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,240 Speaker 2: the New York scene didn't love the Beatles. 790 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,960 Speaker 1: Okay, let's just go to Newport for a second. History 791 00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,720 Speaker 1: keeps being rewritten. First, the big story was Dylan was booed. 792 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,200 Speaker 1: Then they say, no, he really wasn't bowed. What really happened. 793 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,920 Speaker 2: It was pretty straightforward. It was half and half, you know. 794 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:35,000 Speaker 2: I at the end of Maggie's Farm, I was standing 795 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,160 Speaker 2: in the little press enclosure right in front of the stage, 796 00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:45,160 Speaker 2: and you heard this waft of sound that was absolutely 797 00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 2: a mixture. Some people were definitely booing, some people were cheering, 798 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 2: and at the end, after the three songs, the only 799 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,080 Speaker 2: three songs he had rehearsed with the band, and he 800 00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:04,400 Speaker 2: left the stage more and they are a very similar sound, 801 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:09,120 Speaker 2: and you had that wave of sound. You can hear 802 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:14,400 Speaker 2: it on the recordings. I don't think there's any real 803 00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 2: debate about it. It was a very you know, the 804 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:25,360 Speaker 2: whole event was a schismatic event, and everybody knew it beforehand, 805 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:30,720 Speaker 2: the whole weekend before Sunday night. If you just overheard 806 00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:35,600 Speaker 2: conversations passing, it was like, what about Dylan, What do 807 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,160 Speaker 2: you think he's gonna do? Would he dare? No, he 808 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't dare? Would he That was a kind of talk 809 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,880 Speaker 2: that was going around, not just backstage, but among the audience. 810 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,880 Speaker 2: People were intrigued. But Dylan was on the top forty 811 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:54,880 Speaker 2: radio like a rolling stone, playing electric guitar with a 812 00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:59,840 Speaker 2: drum kit. Would he bring that to Newport? Would he dare? 813 01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:06,360 Speaker 2: That was the big question on everybody's mind. And so 814 01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,680 Speaker 2: it was one of those moments that was not just 815 01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:15,200 Speaker 2: a ground you know, a kind of world shaking moment 816 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:21,520 Speaker 2: in retrospect. It was at the time we knew that 817 01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:22,760 Speaker 2: things would never be the same. 818 01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Okay. The Incredible String Band late sixties have a moment. 819 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,440 Speaker 1: I can't speak to England. In the UK, this is 820 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,280 Speaker 1: a I mean, the US is a very fertile era 821 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,480 Speaker 1: where we have FM, underground rock burgeoning. People are seeking 822 01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:43,040 Speaker 1: out records and they have a presence in the scene. 823 01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,800 Speaker 1: We talk about Dylan, we talk about Richard Thompson. They 824 01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,000 Speaker 1: have continued to reinvent themselves, more Dylan than Thompson, but 825 01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:56,840 Speaker 1: Thompson has survived. The Incredible String Band. I think you 826 01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,320 Speaker 1: probably find two people under the age of forty, you know, 827 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Robin Williamson. Is My question is, with these acts and 828 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:09,440 Speaker 1: your experience, why do they tend to have a period 829 01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 1: of fertile creation which ends and usually almost never can 830 01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:15,040 Speaker 1: regain it. 831 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,200 Speaker 2: Well, that's certainly true of the Incredible Strength Band, but 832 01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:21,520 Speaker 2: I'm not sure who else it's true of. I mean, 833 01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:27,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I think, well, I think it's it's certainly 834 01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:30,000 Speaker 2: true of an awful lot of bands or groups or 835 01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:31,840 Speaker 2: artists that I wasn't involved in. 836 01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:35,040 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm talking in general, not just the action. 837 01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:46,240 Speaker 2: In general, I think the output the creation of somebody 838 01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:53,000 Speaker 2: who's writing songs, singing to a microphone for the first 839 01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:59,360 Speaker 2: time just because they can, and writing songs about the 840 01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:04,040 Speaker 2: real life, you know, life that they've had as teenagers, 841 01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:10,120 Speaker 2: young young people is a lot less self conscious than 842 01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,520 Speaker 2: once you've had a hit record or a successful LP 843 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,240 Speaker 2: or done a big tour and can draw thousands of people. 844 01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,240 Speaker 2: It's much more difficult to find subject matter for songs. 845 01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:25,760 Speaker 2: It's much more difficult you start being aware self aware. 846 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:29,680 Speaker 2: Self awareness is a trap, you know, it's a very 847 01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:34,680 Speaker 2: difficult thing to overcome, and some people are are are 848 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,120 Speaker 2: great at it, and some people aren't. But you know, 849 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:41,880 Speaker 2: the Beatles, even the Beatles, you know, they the magic 850 01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:46,120 Speaker 2: of a certain era was hard to replicate in many ways. 851 01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:53,200 Speaker 2: And the Incredible String Band are an extreme example of 852 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,320 Speaker 2: a group that had an incredible output. I mean, in fact, 853 01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,320 Speaker 2: you know, it's on my mind these days because Rough 854 01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,600 Speaker 2: Trade Records in Britain has just concluded a deal to 855 01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:09,560 Speaker 2: reissue the first five Incredible String Band albums and they're 856 01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:13,800 Speaker 2: going to try and overcome this fact that you so 857 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,480 Speaker 2: aptly said that nobody under forty knows who Robin Williamson is. 858 01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:27,439 Speaker 2: And there what happened with them happened very quickly from 859 01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:30,520 Speaker 2: a height of I think in nineteen sixty nine we 860 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,560 Speaker 2: did we filled the filmore East twice, Fillmore West twice, 861 01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 2: the Lincoln Center once, but then we played at Woodstock 862 01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:43,880 Speaker 2: and it was a disaster and they didn't make the 863 01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,400 Speaker 2: cut for the film. They didn't make the cut for 864 01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:52,040 Speaker 2: the record. Suddenly everything just went in another direction and 865 01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:56,240 Speaker 2: passed them by their spot that Friday night because it rained, 866 01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,760 Speaker 2: because they were using electric pickups, they didn't want to 867 01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:06,560 Speaker 2: play acoustically. Melanie stepped into their slot, you know, and 868 01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:13,280 Speaker 2: became a star, and they became scientologists, and I think it, 869 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,520 Speaker 2: you know, had an effect on the quality of their songwriting. 870 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,640 Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know who knows. 871 01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:20,400 Speaker 1: But. 872 01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:29,240 Speaker 2: It happened very quickly, and I think still for me 873 01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,120 Speaker 2: and for many people, those first five albums are fantastic 874 01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:38,840 Speaker 2: records and there's incredible songs, wonderful songs on there. And thankfully, 875 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,720 Speaker 2: you know, the big bosses of Beggars Banquet and Rough 876 01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:47,600 Speaker 2: Trade grew up with incredible string band and are determined 877 01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:52,160 Speaker 2: to try and show everybody what they're missing. And I 878 01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:56,320 Speaker 2: think that would be fantastic what happened. But with a 879 01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,440 Speaker 2: lot of artists, there's just a moment you know that 880 01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:02,600 Speaker 2: the comes and it goes, you know, and you try 881 01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:08,040 Speaker 2: the more the harder you try to recapture a certain 882 01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:16,120 Speaker 2: moment in your life, you know, the more difficult it 883 01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:21,760 Speaker 2: can be. I'm trying to think of I don't know 884 01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:23,960 Speaker 2: what would your I mean solved. 885 01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:25,960 Speaker 1: I have a take on it, just to mean this 886 01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,400 Speaker 1: is a value. My personal take is most of these people, 887 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,360 Speaker 1: you know, as we say, there's so many acts, there's 888 01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,840 Speaker 1: always going to be exceptions. A lot of these people 889 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:41,200 Speaker 1: are alienated people whose lives don't work, and they have 890 01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:45,080 Speaker 1: a fantasy that if they have the success, their lives 891 01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:48,920 Speaker 1: will work. And even though they may make money, they 892 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,840 Speaker 1: may have some sex, may have some drugs, they still 893 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,000 Speaker 1: end up finding the same people and then I find 894 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,760 Speaker 1: they can't do it again because they don't have that drive. 895 01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it's Yeah, that's another I 896 01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:07,840 Speaker 2: think it's similar, a slightly different angle on that self awareness. 897 01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:13,800 Speaker 2: The thing that it's easier to write songs about your 898 01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:18,440 Speaker 2: real life, it's like other people's real lives. Once you 899 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,400 Speaker 2: become somebody who's touring all the time and has a 900 01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,880 Speaker 2: record label saying come on, you've got to have ten 901 01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:28,800 Speaker 2: new songs written by next in two months for this session, 902 01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:37,640 Speaker 2: it's a whole different circumstance. Of creation, of creation, you're 903 01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:43,480 Speaker 2: creating watching yourself do it instead of just having it 904 01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:54,040 Speaker 2: pour out of you. But I have huge admiration for 905 01:06:54,120 --> 01:07:00,840 Speaker 2: people who can continue to reinvent themselves. And it's obviously 906 01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:06,960 Speaker 2: it's different for people who are musicians or singers versus 907 01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,760 Speaker 2: people who are songwriters. You know, that's a kind of 908 01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:16,600 Speaker 2: a different challenge, you know, to be to have a 909 01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:23,000 Speaker 2: to come up with truly original song compositions. 910 01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:26,800 Speaker 1: Okay, you're a record producer. It's one thing to have 911 01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,600 Speaker 1: a debut album. You've worked with acts different times. How 912 01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,720 Speaker 1: do you produce a record such that you get the 913 01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:39,000 Speaker 1: act over their self awareness? 914 01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:43,920 Speaker 2: I think, I mean, as I have banged on about 915 01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:48,600 Speaker 2: probably more than I this is wise. I'm a great 916 01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:56,560 Speaker 2: believer in recording as much live as possible, of putting 917 01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,200 Speaker 2: a bunch of musicians in a room, getting them all 918 01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,880 Speaker 2: to play together, and putting it all and you know, 919 01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:07,360 Speaker 2: maybe doing overdubs later, fixing things, adding harmonies, adding a 920 01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:15,280 Speaker 2: saxophone solo. But the core track is live, and so 921 01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,760 Speaker 2: it's all about what happens in that moment. I think, 922 01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:23,120 Speaker 2: if you know the advent of pro tools and the 923 01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:27,479 Speaker 2: way a lot of people make records these days. You know, 924 01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,240 Speaker 2: you have a click track, you put a guitarist from down, 925 01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:32,919 Speaker 2: you sing a guide vocal, you send it to Seattle 926 01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,559 Speaker 2: for somebody to put a bass part on, and then 927 01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:37,560 Speaker 2: they send it to Boston for somebody to add a 928 01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:42,440 Speaker 2: drum part. You're never going to get over that self awareness. 929 01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:48,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's just rhythmically to me, plotting somehow. 930 01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,120 Speaker 2: It doesn't have the life, the sense of adventure that 931 01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:57,240 Speaker 2: a great recording has. But how to get them if 932 01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,960 Speaker 2: you do once you do establish the fact that you're 933 01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:04,080 Speaker 2: and record live in a moment, and you get a 934 01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:08,240 Speaker 2: bunch of and I think getting other musicians around a 935 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:13,600 Speaker 2: singer songwriter or a musician or a central figure is 936 01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,719 Speaker 2: a key thing because I think the interaction between people 937 01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:17,759 Speaker 2: is central. 938 01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,280 Speaker 1: Tell us about the faithful meeting where you and others 939 01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:31,479 Speaker 1: came up with the term world music. 940 01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:43,880 Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty seven. It was, you know, it was kind 941 01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:47,400 Speaker 2: of an exciting time in the record business. I mean, 942 01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:56,920 Speaker 2: you know, I in looking back on that period, I 943 01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:02,080 Speaker 2: have conceptual it quite a lot. You know, I have 944 01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:09,639 Speaker 2: a lot of theories about what was going on. I think, 945 01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:13,479 Speaker 2: as I mentioned when we talked about the seventies, that 946 01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:19,000 Speaker 2: punk and disco were Although there were some great things 947 01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:26,599 Speaker 2: that came out of punk and disco, overall, they weren't 948 01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,599 Speaker 2: what I would call positive developments in the history of music. 949 01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:34,160 Speaker 2: But you know, they are what they are. They happened, 950 01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:39,559 Speaker 2: they're real. But I think it deprived a lot of 951 01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:45,679 Speaker 2: people listeners of the sort of music that they had 952 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,400 Speaker 2: learned to love and the way they'd gotten into music. 953 01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:51,880 Speaker 2: They've gotten a lot of people came in to music 954 01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:58,040 Speaker 2: through great pop music, through blues, through jazz, through country music, 955 01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:03,559 Speaker 2: all this music that people are virtuosic they play. There's 956 01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:07,760 Speaker 2: a feeling of roots, there's a feeling of flamboyant in 957 01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:14,320 Speaker 2: the moment, whether it's Bill Monroe or whether it's you know, 958 01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:19,160 Speaker 2: I don't know, Miles Davis in some of his electric stuff. 959 01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:25,080 Speaker 2: I mean, all that stuff brought lot. You know, there 960 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,120 Speaker 2: was a huge audience for music that was sort of 961 01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:35,960 Speaker 2: oriented around great playing, and then suddenly in the late 962 01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:40,360 Speaker 2: seventies early eighties, there wasn't so much of that coming 963 01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:44,559 Speaker 2: out anymore. And I think it's like a weather system. 964 01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:48,800 Speaker 2: There was a low pressure system and it sucked in 965 01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:56,360 Speaker 2: things from over the horizon, African music, Latin music, you 966 01:11:56,439 --> 01:12:02,920 Speaker 2: suddenly had DJs starting to make Latin tracks in with 967 01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:08,519 Speaker 2: disco tracks. You had people fell a kooti, you had 968 01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,760 Speaker 2: African music, you had you know, and and and it, 969 01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:15,200 Speaker 2: and the ripples just spread wider and wider into and 970 01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:19,400 Speaker 2: people realized how much music was out there in the world. 971 01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:24,160 Speaker 2: And another thing that people that I certainly realized because 972 01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:27,759 Speaker 2: I was still signing, you know, I put out Shootout 973 01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:30,439 Speaker 2: the Lights in nineteen eighty two. I was still making 974 01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:34,639 Speaker 2: records with the likes of Richard and Linda Thompson, and 975 01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:41,880 Speaker 2: but I began to realize that every week there were 976 01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:48,639 Speaker 2: hundreds of singer songwriters records being released into the into 977 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:55,120 Speaker 2: the English and American markets, and and if you had 978 01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:57,880 Speaker 2: a great singer songwriter, it was a struggle if you 979 01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:03,280 Speaker 2: were a little label with no money. And whereas if 980 01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:09,160 Speaker 2: you put out a record of music cash Hungary's greatest 981 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:15,320 Speaker 2: traditional band, nobody else is putting out Hungary's greatest traditional 982 01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,240 Speaker 2: band or anything like it. And so if you find 983 01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:21,800 Speaker 2: an audience for that sort of music, you've you're going 984 01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:26,960 Speaker 2: to sell a few thousand. And and so more and 985 01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:31,840 Speaker 2: more labels were exploring this kind of territory, and we 986 01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:36,120 Speaker 2: were getting frustrated because the record stores didn't know how 987 01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:39,439 Speaker 2: to deal with it. They had a they some some 988 01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:43,840 Speaker 2: record stores had a little divider saying ethnic some record 989 01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:48,080 Speaker 2: stores had a divider saying international folk. And you'd end 990 01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:55,839 Speaker 2: up behind those kinds of dividers, and so some one, somebody, 991 01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,040 Speaker 2: one of the record label guys said, let's all get 992 01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:01,640 Speaker 2: together and talk about this, and so we did, and 993 01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:05,200 Speaker 2: we had this idea. The idea came together to make 994 01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:10,240 Speaker 2: like five hundred dividers that we would give out free 995 01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:14,080 Speaker 2: to record stores, and on the back of the divider 996 01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:17,160 Speaker 2: would be a checklist of all the records in small 997 01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,080 Speaker 2: type that they should stock to go behind this divider, 998 01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,559 Speaker 2: and all the labels would pay fifty pounds for each 999 01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:28,040 Speaker 2: record they wanted on that list. So we ended up 1000 01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:30,720 Speaker 2: with a budget of like four thousand pounds three eight 1001 01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:35,200 Speaker 2: hundred pounds or something, and we voted for Okay, what 1002 01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:37,439 Speaker 2: are we going to put on this divider? World music 1003 01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:41,639 Speaker 2: seemed obvious, good idea, and it wasn't a new invention, 1004 01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:45,680 Speaker 2: and people had pointed out like Wesleyan University had a 1005 01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:51,519 Speaker 2: world music department starting in the fifties, and there's a 1006 01:14:51,560 --> 01:15:00,000 Speaker 2: world music building in Middletown, Connecticut and Wesleyan College. But anyway, 1007 01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,479 Speaker 2: it was new, and we just thought, hey, it's just 1008 01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:04,960 Speaker 2: a divide or to help us get records into stores. 1009 01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:10,040 Speaker 2: And people have criticized it and later as a kind 1010 01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:20,080 Speaker 2: of way of categorizing and other othering music from other cultures, 1011 01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:26,439 Speaker 2: and but my view is we were just categorizing the audience. 1012 01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,040 Speaker 2: You know, we knew that somebody who was interested in 1013 01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:35,600 Speaker 2: neust Fata Ali Khan was probably our best bet for 1014 01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:40,120 Speaker 2: somebody who might buy an Orchestra Baobab record or of 1015 01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:48,280 Speaker 2: Susannah Baka records. And and that those categories, you know, 1016 01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:50,639 Speaker 2: you wouldn't get You wouldn't get very far by putting 1017 01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:53,760 Speaker 2: everybody in a separate country or a separate category. But 1018 01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,320 Speaker 2: if you had, you know, this one category that was 1019 01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:00,320 Speaker 2: like this kind of music that people seem to like. 1020 01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:09,080 Speaker 2: Now it's a category defined by its audience. And and 1021 01:16:09,160 --> 01:16:12,280 Speaker 2: it worked like crazy, so so much so that we 1022 01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:17,040 Speaker 2: were caught unawares. And within a year of that meeting, 1023 01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:23,760 Speaker 2: there were world music seasons at art centers from you know, 1024 01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:30,320 Speaker 2: Berkeley to Belgrade, not Belgrade and then but but you know, 1025 01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:36,519 Speaker 2: but Berkeley to Athens, and there were World music radio shows, 1026 01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:39,680 Speaker 2: and there were music World music labels, and there were 1027 01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:46,200 Speaker 2: Music World music review columns in newspapers once a week 1028 01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:50,280 Speaker 2: or once a month. It just, you know, expanded. It 1029 01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:53,879 Speaker 2: was just like and we spent like sixteen hundred pounds 1030 01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:59,320 Speaker 2: on PR for the thing, and it was like the 1031 01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:04,160 Speaker 2: most high leveraged PR campaign in history. 1032 01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:08,360 Speaker 1: I would say, you talk about this period the late 1033 01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:13,400 Speaker 1: seventies for eighties. Of course, then the business is revolutionized 1034 01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:17,320 Speaker 1: by MTV. What's your assessment of the music landscape today. 1035 01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:20,599 Speaker 2: I'm not a good person to ask for it, because 1036 01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:25,120 Speaker 2: I've been so closeted trying to finish this gigantic opus 1037 01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:28,040 Speaker 2: of mine that I don't do a lot of listening 1038 01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:33,720 Speaker 2: to what's going on today. That's one excuse. The other 1039 01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:35,800 Speaker 2: excuse is that I don't you really hear that much 1040 01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:39,160 Speaker 2: that I really like. Although there's some great stuff. You 1041 01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:48,000 Speaker 2: do hear some terrific stuff. But the way that it works, 1042 01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:53,960 Speaker 2: and the how tiny the share of proceeds is that 1043 01:17:54,080 --> 01:18:02,800 Speaker 2: goes to musicians, and how little financing there is for 1044 01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:09,920 Speaker 2: for recording projects, it's just such a completely different landscape 1045 01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:13,800 Speaker 2: than the one that I am familiar with that I 1046 01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:17,240 Speaker 2: hardly know where to start in trying to think about 1047 01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:21,960 Speaker 2: it or what it is. It's just very, very different, 1048 01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:26,679 Speaker 2: and I'm glad I'm not starting a record label today, 1049 01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,880 Speaker 2: you know. I think it's a very difficult world. On 1050 01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:34,680 Speaker 2: the other hand, so much is available, you can hear 1051 01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:39,840 Speaker 2: so much stuff. But again that's a little bit of 1052 01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:41,759 Speaker 2: a double edged sword. 1053 01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:47,800 Speaker 1: I think, Okay, I'll buy your excuses, so let's move on. 1054 01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,400 Speaker 1: The blue is ever going to come back? 1055 01:18:57,560 --> 01:18:59,639 Speaker 2: I don't think. I mean, I don't think it'll come 1056 01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:06,400 Speaker 2: back except in a I mean, there are young you know, 1057 01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:10,680 Speaker 2: there's lots of interesting things around. For example, I just 1058 01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,519 Speaker 2: saw a headline the other day Rhanna and Giddens is 1059 01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:17,400 Speaker 2: reforming the Carolina Chocolate Drops and they're gonna play at 1060 01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:25,400 Speaker 2: her festival in Carolina in April next year. And but 1061 01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:31,800 Speaker 2: I think that's something else, you know, blues. I think, 1062 01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:38,640 Speaker 2: you know, so much of the music that I have collected, 1063 01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:45,160 Speaker 2: written about, recorded, that I talk about in the book 1064 01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:55,080 Speaker 2: doesn't any longer grow from the soil easily. It has 1065 01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:58,760 Speaker 2: to be. It's become self aware, like what we're talking 1066 01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:08,040 Speaker 2: about earlier, with say or songwriters. It's and yet there's 1067 01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:11,000 Speaker 2: always great music, and there's always great musicians, and there's 1068 01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:16,439 Speaker 2: always you know. I have a little sidebar to my 1069 01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:22,600 Speaker 2: work on the book was that during the course of 1070 01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:27,360 Speaker 2: writing the book ten years ago, I went someplace I'd 1071 01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,120 Speaker 2: always wanted to go, which was Albania, and heard some 1072 01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:34,000 Speaker 2: music there, and I met a German woman who was 1073 01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:38,759 Speaker 2: working in environmental projects there but knew all the dances 1074 01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:43,559 Speaker 2: from all the regions of Albania, knew everything about Albanian music. Anyway, 1075 01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:47,599 Speaker 2: she's now, that's Andrea. You just met her, my wife, 1076 01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:52,839 Speaker 2: And over these years we made a few records together 1077 01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,200 Speaker 2: in the Balkans, which is an area that she really likes, 1078 01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:00,439 Speaker 2: and we put together a kind of buena vista, a club, 1079 01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:05,400 Speaker 2: kind of team of sase musicians from southern Albania. I 1080 01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:09,120 Speaker 2: made an album called Saziso Tat by the group called 1081 01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:16,439 Speaker 2: Saziso at least wave your handkerchief at me. And at 1082 01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:20,040 Speaker 2: first when it came out like six seven, seven years ago, 1083 01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:24,200 Speaker 2: I think, and it got very nice reviews. They did 1084 01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:30,000 Speaker 2: concerts in Germany and Scandinavia and around Britain. Nobody in 1085 01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:39,240 Speaker 2: Albania paid it any more. But over the years that 1086 01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:43,599 Speaker 2: has changed, and one of the fascinating things that's happened. 1087 01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:47,840 Speaker 2: You know that Kosovo is a separate country. It's a 1088 01:21:47,920 --> 01:21:52,680 Speaker 2: new country, part of the old Yugoslavia, and its identity 1089 01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:56,960 Speaker 2: is that they all speak Albanian. It's Albanian, and they 1090 01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:58,920 Speaker 2: would love to be a part of an ou Gradio, 1091 01:21:58,920 --> 01:22:01,519 Speaker 2: a greater Albania, but that's not going to happen in 1092 01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:08,360 Speaker 2: the European UN and Europe won't let them. And there's 1093 01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:13,280 Speaker 2: this whole generation of young people in Kosovo who have 1094 01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:18,320 Speaker 2: discovered Saziso and who love them like the way, almost 1095 01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:23,599 Speaker 2: the way people in Boston love the Blues sixty years ago. 1096 01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:31,160 Speaker 2: They've just done a huge concert there last weekend, and 1097 01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:35,439 Speaker 2: there's a gro and even within Albania itself now you 1098 01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:38,880 Speaker 2: walk down the streets and suddenly you start to hear 1099 01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:43,679 Speaker 2: traditional acoustic music which you would never hear five years ago. 1100 01:22:45,160 --> 01:22:49,840 Speaker 2: And so whether that's going to lead to great players 1101 01:22:49,960 --> 01:22:55,160 Speaker 2: and people who are of the stature musically of some 1102 01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:57,240 Speaker 2: of these great people that we have on these on 1103 01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:01,960 Speaker 2: this record, I don't know, but it is wonderful that 1104 01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:06,320 Speaker 2: it's become a way of you know, it's all a 1105 01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:10,160 Speaker 2: bit mixed up with some of this nationalism and like 1106 01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:15,799 Speaker 2: pride in your country and you know, it's a complicated business. 1107 01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:20,679 Speaker 2: But I'm very encouraged by that, and I'm very encouraged 1108 01:23:20,760 --> 01:23:24,479 Speaker 2: when I go to some place like New Orleans, because 1109 01:23:24,600 --> 01:23:29,080 Speaker 2: I remember once I went to a Second Line march 1110 01:23:30,360 --> 01:23:36,080 Speaker 2: uptown in New Orleans and I was just following along. 1111 01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:39,360 Speaker 2: There was this great brass band and people dancing, and 1112 01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:45,160 Speaker 2: one guy was just incredible dancing and I was watching him. 1113 01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:47,240 Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, there was a side street. 1114 01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:50,559 Speaker 2: A car pulled into parks on a side street just 1115 01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:53,439 Speaker 2: next to where the band was going, and it was 1116 01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:58,040 Speaker 2: blaring out rap on a sound system with a huge 1117 01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:03,839 Speaker 2: base uh speaker, and it almost drowned out the Second 1118 01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:07,120 Speaker 2: Line band, and I was like, oh, damn, you know, 1119 01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:11,040 Speaker 2: why don't you shut up and have some respect. The 1120 01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:14,760 Speaker 2: car stopped, they turned the key off, the sound disappeared. 1121 01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:18,160 Speaker 2: Two guys got out of the front seat of the car, 1122 01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:22,599 Speaker 2: went around to the trunk of the car, opened the trunk, 1123 01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:25,519 Speaker 2: and these were two guys who had been, you know, 1124 01:24:25,560 --> 01:24:29,720 Speaker 2: bouncing along to this rap music in the trunk of 1125 01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:32,000 Speaker 2: the car. One of them had a saxophone case and 1126 01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:34,320 Speaker 2: one of my had to trumbone case, and they pained 1127 01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:36,559 Speaker 2: with their instruments and they joined the second line band 1128 01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:41,559 Speaker 2: playing this music, and so it can live side by side, 1129 01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:45,799 Speaker 2: you know, the two things. It doesn't It doesn't happen everywhere. 1130 01:24:46,200 --> 01:24:51,400 Speaker 2: It happens in Havana and Matanzas. It happens in Salvador, 1131 01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:55,639 Speaker 2: Dubaia in Brazil, where people go back and forth from 1132 01:24:56,640 --> 01:25:05,559 Speaker 2: digital beats to the tradition, which seems in those contexts 1133 01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:11,120 Speaker 2: to be alive. And so, you know, I get depressed sometimes, 1134 01:25:11,160 --> 01:25:13,760 Speaker 2: but then I also get very encouraged by places like 1135 01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:17,960 Speaker 2: that and by that kind of thing. And you know, 1136 01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:21,519 Speaker 2: there's have you ever heard of dust to Digital the 1137 01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:27,040 Speaker 2: label there's a label anyway. It's a great label of 1138 01:25:27,200 --> 01:25:31,439 Speaker 2: reissue obscure stuff old seventy eight And they have an 1139 01:25:31,479 --> 01:25:37,200 Speaker 2: Instagram feed once a month and it's people send them 1140 01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:41,800 Speaker 2: clips of live music from around the world and it's 1141 01:25:42,040 --> 01:25:46,120 Speaker 2: just fabulous. And it's hardly a drum machine in sight. 1142 01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:51,479 Speaker 2: It's all live and real and it's just fabulous. So 1143 01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:57,320 Speaker 2: you know, I think music is music will live. 1144 01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:02,760 Speaker 1: Okay, leaveless to say business changed. The Beatles blow up 1145 01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:07,679 Speaker 1: the business much bigger. We have FM underground radio. People 1146 01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:13,280 Speaker 1: have a wider palette of what they're listening to where 1147 01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:16,680 Speaker 1: I'm ultimately going. And today it's you know, it's just 1148 01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:19,880 Speaker 1: a s mortgage board if anybody can play. To what 1149 01:26:20,120 --> 01:26:24,599 Speaker 1: degree when you make a record in the more modern era, 1150 01:26:25,680 --> 01:26:28,040 Speaker 1: do you say I have a need to get this 1151 01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:32,200 Speaker 1: on wax, so to speak, or do you consider commercial 1152 01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:37,200 Speaker 1: impact or reach irrelevant of the dollars? 1153 01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:41,920 Speaker 2: Well, this has to be divided into two parts. I mean, 1154 01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:46,960 Speaker 2: there was a time for twenty years I ran Hannibal Records. 1155 01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:52,920 Speaker 2: For ten years. I ran it on my own, and 1156 01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:56,000 Speaker 2: I really I'm not a great business man, you know. 1157 01:26:56,240 --> 01:27:03,040 Speaker 2: I struggled. I had some successes, but I didn't budget well. 1158 01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:07,040 Speaker 2: I was over optimistic, you know. I tried to think 1159 01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:12,760 Speaker 2: like balance, create, you know, the artistic side and the 1160 01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:15,280 Speaker 2: commercial side, and make it work because I had to. 1161 01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:18,240 Speaker 2: I had to pay salaries every Monday morning. That was 1162 01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:20,839 Speaker 2: what I thought of. How do I meet the payroll 1163 01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:24,680 Speaker 2: on Friday? So I had to think commercially and eventually 1164 01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:28,479 Speaker 2: I had to sell the company to a Rikodisc. But 1165 01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:34,120 Speaker 2: even within riko Disc, I was expected to deliver records 1166 01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:39,439 Speaker 2: that sold, and I was very fortunate. I struck lucky 1167 01:27:39,479 --> 01:27:43,160 Speaker 2: a few times, you know, with TOUMANI diabate with Cubanismo, 1168 01:27:45,160 --> 01:27:49,479 Speaker 2: with you know, a number of things. But I had 1169 01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:55,200 Speaker 2: to have that thought always in mind. And then by 1170 01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:59,200 Speaker 2: two thousand, you know, the label had been sold to 1171 01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:01,960 Speaker 2: a hedge fund and the whole thing was just too 1172 01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:05,400 Speaker 2: I decided to hell with this, I'll write a book instead. 1173 01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:10,559 Speaker 2: And so ever since then, so last twenty five years, 1174 01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:16,640 Speaker 2: I have made very few records, and the records that 1175 01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:20,439 Speaker 2: I do make, I make for the first reason you 1176 01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:23,400 Speaker 2: said that, I got to get this down on disk. 1177 01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:26,640 Speaker 2: This is important. I want this to be done. I 1178 01:28:26,680 --> 01:28:28,600 Speaker 2: don't know whether it's going to sell. I think it 1179 01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:32,280 Speaker 2: probably won't. But let's figure out if I can raise 1180 01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:35,920 Speaker 2: the money to finance making it, and let's try and 1181 01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:37,920 Speaker 2: get it to critics, and let's try and get some 1182 01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:41,880 Speaker 2: live events going and at least make some people hear 1183 01:28:41,960 --> 01:28:45,479 Speaker 2: this music. But I'm not trying to do it as 1184 01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:49,479 Speaker 2: a first step and starting another record label. 1185 01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:01,559 Speaker 1: Okay, Switching gears a little bit. Talked about your wife. 1186 01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:04,919 Speaker 1: How many times have you married, and how many children? 1187 01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:06,559 Speaker 1: And what are they up to if you have them? 1188 01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:11,759 Speaker 2: Once marriage? No children? 1189 01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:14,160 Speaker 1: How old were you when you got. 1190 01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:22,719 Speaker 2: Married seventy five or seventy four. 1191 01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:26,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, when you were in your mid thirties. 1192 01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:29,439 Speaker 2: No, no, so no, no not you wait wait, I 1193 01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:31,360 Speaker 2: was seventy five years old, That's. 1194 01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:31,800 Speaker 1: What I thought. 1195 01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:35,360 Speaker 3: And then I absolutely so seventy five years old. 1196 01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:39,600 Speaker 1: Right, So you just hadn't met the right person, or 1197 01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:41,320 Speaker 1: you were too invested in work. 1198 01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:45,400 Speaker 2: Mixture of all those things. You know, talk to my shrink. 1199 01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:49,479 Speaker 1: Do you go to the shrink I used to. 1200 01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:56,080 Speaker 2: I mean that helped me a lot. I mean, but no, 1201 01:29:56,160 --> 01:30:00,560 Speaker 2: I mean I had relationships, I had came close to 1202 01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:05,720 Speaker 2: getting married a couple of times. But I don't know. 1203 01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,479 Speaker 2: There's all you know, as I said, you're getting into 1204 01:30:09,479 --> 01:30:12,920 Speaker 2: psychological things now that I can't talk about with the 1205 01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:15,240 Speaker 2: same authority that I talk about musical. 1206 01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:18,679 Speaker 1: Well, you know they were, as depeche Mode said, people 1207 01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:22,840 Speaker 1: are people. So you know, it always astounds me. You 1208 01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:25,840 Speaker 1: have these musicians that are very successful on the road 1209 01:30:26,720 --> 01:30:30,519 Speaker 1: almost all the time. They have wives, they have children. 1210 01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:34,879 Speaker 1: I have never had that drive and do whatever success 1211 01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:37,800 Speaker 1: I've had has taken all my effort. So I'm more 1212 01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:41,200 Speaker 1: interested with you is that you're just so just talking 1213 01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:44,800 Speaker 1: about the children aspect, irrelevant of the marriage aspect. Has 1214 01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:46,920 Speaker 1: it been well, this is my passion. I don't want 1215 01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:47,759 Speaker 1: to get off the path. 1216 01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:55,960 Speaker 2: I always thought that I would like to have children, 1217 01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:03,240 Speaker 2: but I didn't really do much about it. And and 1218 01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:08,759 Speaker 2: I m I think I probably if I was honest, 1219 01:31:09,080 --> 01:31:11,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I would never have said it quite as 1220 01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:16,040 Speaker 2: bluntly as you said it about yourself. But it's probably true, 1221 01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:19,720 Speaker 2: you know that I was. And that's my way. That's 1222 01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:22,839 Speaker 2: the way my father was, you know. He he got married, 1223 01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:26,559 Speaker 2: and he always felt that this was, you know, a 1224 01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:30,720 Speaker 2: great thing that he did. To make a mistake of 1225 01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:33,519 Speaker 2: getting married and having two kids, he always felt was 1226 01:31:33,560 --> 01:31:36,920 Speaker 2: the best thing you'd ever done. And he always used 1227 01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:40,559 Speaker 2: to hector me, No, you don't have to get married, 1228 01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:47,639 Speaker 2: just have kids, you know. And hmm. He he felt 1229 01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:51,519 Speaker 2: that I was missing out. But he lived his life 1230 01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:58,320 Speaker 2: basically oriented around following his quest. And I think probably 1231 01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:06,000 Speaker 2: I have, you know, but I've been very fortunate to 1232 01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:13,200 Speaker 2: meet somebody who shares so much of my quest and 1233 01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:17,680 Speaker 2: who tolerates. 1234 01:32:18,200 --> 01:32:25,320 Speaker 1: Okay, you've had some landmark work with great respect critical response. 1235 01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:28,800 Speaker 1: Have you done financially. 1236 01:32:33,360 --> 01:32:38,360 Speaker 2: Not particularly well? I'm okay, I mean I was, but largely, 1237 01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:39,920 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, in a way, if you look 1238 01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:46,040 Speaker 2: at where I am now, which is okay. I own 1239 01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:50,640 Speaker 2: my flat in London, you know, but I there's a 1240 01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:57,360 Speaker 2: mortgage on it. But I'm you know, and I get royalties, 1241 01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:01,880 Speaker 2: but not enough to live, you know, like a king. 1242 01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:06,880 Speaker 2: Nick Drake. Royalties just keep going up and up and up, 1243 01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:13,599 Speaker 2: white bicycle. Audiobook royalties go up and up and out. Yeah, 1244 01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:17,920 Speaker 2: well lately, particularly since the new book came out, but 1245 01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:20,719 Speaker 2: also steadily over the years a little bit of an increase. 1246 01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:26,040 Speaker 2: And but you know, mixed in with that have been 1247 01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:31,800 Speaker 2: some lucky strikes with property and some a little bit 1248 01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:36,960 Speaker 2: of inheritance from my parents. So it's a mixture of 1249 01:33:38,720 --> 01:33:44,400 Speaker 2: earned fair and square in the music business. Plus bought 1250 01:33:44,439 --> 01:33:49,040 Speaker 2: and sold an apartment in downtown New York a good time, 1251 01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:51,920 Speaker 2: bought and sold an apartment in Nottinghill Gate ad a 1252 01:33:51,920 --> 01:34:00,320 Speaker 2: good time. And ah, and you know, bought the right 1253 01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:01,519 Speaker 2: stocks at the right time. 1254 01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:07,519 Speaker 1: Okay, you live in London. What do Americans just don't 1255 01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:11,000 Speaker 1: understand about London or the UK in general? 1256 01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:14,840 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm not sure about that. I don't know what 1257 01:34:14,960 --> 01:34:17,559 Speaker 2: to say about that question. I think I'm a bit 1258 01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:22,200 Speaker 2: I used to be intrigued or kind of scratch my head, 1259 01:34:22,800 --> 01:34:27,040 Speaker 2: like what is this about these letters in the articles 1260 01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:31,360 Speaker 2: think pieces in the New York Times from Americans living 1261 01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:36,280 Speaker 2: in London who say English people are so unfriendly. I 1262 01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:39,639 Speaker 2: never get invited to somebody's house, you know, are they? 1263 01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:47,879 Speaker 2: And I don't know. I just wherever I've gone, including Britain, 1264 01:34:49,680 --> 01:34:55,160 Speaker 2: I've never I guess I grew up my grandmother, who 1265 01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:58,240 Speaker 2: you know, spent all that time in Austria and Germany, 1266 01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:04,040 Speaker 2: and she had this sort of attitude that America was 1267 01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:07,280 Speaker 2: kind of a barbaric place and that real civilization was 1268 01:35:07,320 --> 01:35:11,960 Speaker 2: over there. And I think that, you know, came into 1269 01:35:11,960 --> 01:35:21,160 Speaker 2: my head. But from the minute I arrived at Heathrow Airport, 1270 01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:30,840 Speaker 2: or Orly Airport in Paris or wherever, I never perceived 1271 01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:38,200 Speaker 2: myself as a foreigner. I just deal with I don't know, 1272 01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:42,559 Speaker 2: I feel I'm somehow, I've got a quirk. That's very fortunate. 1273 01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:50,600 Speaker 2: The first day I was ever in France, I was 1274 01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:53,320 Speaker 2: with the Muddy Water since cince Rosetta. We were doing 1275 01:35:53,320 --> 01:36:01,040 Speaker 2: a show for French television, and I'd been speaking my 1276 01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:04,680 Speaker 2: kind of bad schoolboy French to the promoter promoter by 1277 01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:09,000 Speaker 2: the telephone about hotel rooms and playing arrival times and 1278 01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:11,840 Speaker 2: things like that. And we're driving in from the airport 1279 01:36:11,880 --> 01:36:14,160 Speaker 2: to Paris, and so I said, I'd need to talk 1280 01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:17,920 Speaker 2: to whoever's announcing the show tonight, because everybody has a 1281 01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:22,040 Speaker 2: certain way they like to be introduced. And they said, oh, 1282 01:36:22,080 --> 01:36:26,800 Speaker 2: may sa Ou, it's you. What do you mean me, 1283 01:36:27,040 --> 01:36:30,320 Speaker 2: I don't speak French. He said, no, no, no, you're 1284 01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:33,559 Speaker 2: obviously the announcer. You're going to announce it. So my 1285 01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:37,799 Speaker 2: first day in France, I was on French television speaking 1286 01:36:37,840 --> 01:36:42,040 Speaker 2: French badly. But as he said, hey, it's cute. We 1287 01:36:42,120 --> 01:36:45,599 Speaker 2: appreciate people who try, and so I had never stopped. 1288 01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:48,719 Speaker 2: I just kept speaking French badly, and eventually I spoke 1289 01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:52,519 Speaker 2: French pretty well. And the same thing in Britain. I just, 1290 01:36:52,720 --> 01:36:57,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. I fell in with John Hopkins and 1291 01:36:57,080 --> 01:37:01,320 Speaker 2: a few other people from all different tie of worlds. 1292 01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:04,880 Speaker 2: In Britain. They weren't all upper class, they weren't all 1293 01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:08,960 Speaker 2: lower class, they weren't all middle class. They were all different, 1294 01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:13,360 Speaker 2: and I just, I don't know, I just I never 1295 01:37:15,520 --> 01:37:17,840 Speaker 2: thought of myself. I you know, I have a season 1296 01:37:17,840 --> 01:37:21,880 Speaker 2: ticket at Queen's Park Rangers. I sit, you know, in 1297 01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:26,679 Speaker 2: the in the stands, surrounded by working class British people, 1298 01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:28,440 Speaker 2: and we argue. 1299 01:37:28,120 --> 01:37:29,759 Speaker 1: About what sport do they play there? 1300 01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:31,559 Speaker 2: Football? 1301 01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:35,120 Speaker 1: Okay, what we call or what I want to make 1302 01:37:35,160 --> 01:37:36,040 Speaker 1: sure it's not cricket. 1303 01:37:36,960 --> 01:37:39,880 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I never. I mean I I 1304 01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:49,000 Speaker 2: enjoy I love explaining baseball to an Englishman and cricket 1305 01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:53,559 Speaker 2: to an American. That's a real bliss for me if 1306 01:37:53,560 --> 01:37:57,519 Speaker 2: I get that opportunity. Somebody says, please explain. Oh great, okay, 1307 01:37:57,600 --> 01:37:59,200 Speaker 2: sit down. How long have you got. 1308 01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:08,080 Speaker 1: Okay forgetting the personal? What do we know? England left 1309 01:38:08,120 --> 01:38:15,599 Speaker 1: the EU the health system, although national is struggling. United States, 1310 01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:18,080 Speaker 1: everybody who lives here says, greatest country in the world. 1311 01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:22,040 Speaker 1: So many people don't have passports, haven't been anywhere. Okay, 1312 01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:26,680 Speaker 1: certain things we take for granted. I mean, landline's not 1313 01:38:26,800 --> 01:38:29,160 Speaker 1: really a thing anymore, but it used to be. You 1314 01:38:29,160 --> 01:38:31,599 Speaker 1: can get a landline right away in America. You might 1315 01:38:31,640 --> 01:38:36,120 Speaker 1: have to wait weeks in London. What can you tell 1316 01:38:36,160 --> 01:38:39,600 Speaker 1: us about the difference of the countries in the American 1317 01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:42,280 Speaker 1: perception of England relative to what it's really like. 1318 01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:47,479 Speaker 2: Well, it's much less different than it used to be. 1319 01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:51,200 Speaker 2: I mean, in the sixties, I was startled by so 1320 01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:54,200 Speaker 2: many things. The biggest thing I was startled by was 1321 01:38:54,240 --> 01:39:00,439 Speaker 2: how little possessions people had. Nobody had a car, very 1322 01:39:00,439 --> 01:39:05,240 Speaker 2: few people had a car, very few people had refrigerators, 1323 01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:10,639 Speaker 2: you know. I remember I, you know, one day in 1324 01:39:10,680 --> 01:39:14,960 Speaker 2: my early in my first day in England, I spent 1325 01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:19,439 Speaker 2: the night in a young lady's apartment and in the morning, 1326 01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:22,040 Speaker 2: she said, you want a cup of tea and she 1327 01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:25,400 Speaker 2: boiled the water with an electric kettle that she plugged 1328 01:39:25,439 --> 01:39:27,880 Speaker 2: into the wall, and then she opened the window. It 1329 01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:32,120 Speaker 2: was wintertime, and she took the milk bottle off the 1330 01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:36,680 Speaker 2: window ledge because she didn't have a fridge. And I 1331 01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:40,920 Speaker 2: was kind of amazed, you know. And people would get together. 1332 01:39:41,240 --> 01:39:43,599 Speaker 2: One person had a television set. We all got together 1333 01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:46,320 Speaker 2: to watch something that was important, to watch, some television. 1334 01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:51,479 Speaker 2: But it seemed that it didn't actually make people less happy, 1335 01:39:53,400 --> 01:39:56,280 Speaker 2: and quite the contrary, and in fact, there was a 1336 01:39:57,360 --> 01:39:59,519 Speaker 2: there was a sort of you know, I was kind 1337 01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:02,439 Speaker 2: of judged mental about the way a lot of British 1338 01:40:02,439 --> 01:40:07,080 Speaker 2: people accepted their lot in those days, back in the 1339 01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:11,080 Speaker 2: sixties or the seventies. If you were working class, if 1340 01:40:11,080 --> 01:40:12,960 Speaker 2: you had working class parents, you were going to be 1341 01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:16,360 Speaker 2: working class. That's it. That was a deal. No movement 1342 01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:21,320 Speaker 2: up or down, and I thought that wasn't very good. 1343 01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:28,360 Speaker 2: But when I would fly to California from London and 1344 01:40:28,479 --> 01:40:30,639 Speaker 2: run into a lot of people in California who were 1345 01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:36,880 Speaker 2: bitterly disappointed with their failure to become stars, you know, 1346 01:40:37,040 --> 01:40:41,800 Speaker 2: I would think to myself, huh, actually, those Brits seem 1347 01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:43,200 Speaker 2: a bit happened in these people. 1348 01:40:44,720 --> 01:40:47,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go back to the book for a second. 1349 01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:51,240 Speaker 1: You break it down basically by countries slash regions. Can 1350 01:40:51,240 --> 01:40:53,760 Speaker 1: you tell my audience what those varying countries are. 1351 01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:59,840 Speaker 2: Well, I start with South Africa because of Graceland, because 1352 01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:03,120 Speaker 2: of all that. You know, there's so much not just Graceland. 1353 01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:06,599 Speaker 2: As I say in the book, Graceland is not the 1354 01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:11,439 Speaker 2: biggest Zulu related record of the twentieth century. The biggest 1355 01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:15,320 Speaker 2: Zulu related record is A Lion Sleeps Tonight, whim Away, 1356 01:41:15,920 --> 01:41:19,080 Speaker 2: all of that and the story behind that. So it's 1357 01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:21,599 Speaker 2: a good way to sort. That's very familiar, the most 1358 01:41:21,680 --> 01:41:24,760 Speaker 2: familiar sort of piece of world music you can have. 1359 01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:29,599 Speaker 2: So that's the way. The door in then chapter two 1360 01:41:29,720 --> 01:41:34,479 Speaker 2: is Cuba, and the way that the incredible difference. This 1361 01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:39,280 Speaker 2: island just a few miles off the Florida Coast has 1362 01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:43,920 Speaker 2: a completely different rhythmic culture than America and why that 1363 01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:49,439 Speaker 2: is and how that has over years shaped American music. 1364 01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:56,599 Speaker 2: Chapter three is Jamaica, which is right next to Cuba 1365 01:41:57,080 --> 01:42:04,519 Speaker 2: but couldn't be more different, completely isolated, weird, inward looking poor, 1366 01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:10,799 Speaker 2: never prosperous, and suddenly bingo in nineteen seventy five, reggae 1367 01:42:11,120 --> 01:42:14,960 Speaker 2: is equal to salsa as a kind of force in 1368 01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:22,640 Speaker 2: the world. Chapter four is Indian music, the way it 1369 01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:30,479 Speaker 2: influenced everybody from the Beatles to John Coltrane, and then 1370 01:42:30,640 --> 01:42:37,880 Speaker 2: going back fifteen hundred years to the exodus west of 1371 01:42:37,920 --> 01:42:42,000 Speaker 2: a whole caste of Indians that became known in the 1372 01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:45,360 Speaker 2: Western Europe when they got there as Gypsies, and how 1373 01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:53,479 Speaker 2: they completely transformed European music. Chapter five is Brazil, everything 1374 01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:57,040 Speaker 2: leading up to Bosonova and how that had a huge 1375 01:42:57,040 --> 01:43:03,439 Speaker 2: effect around the world. Chapter six Argentina and the tango 1376 01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:08,519 Speaker 2: and one of you know, my favorite little anecdotes in 1377 01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:11,919 Speaker 2: the book, the way the great tango singer Carlos Gardell 1378 01:43:13,120 --> 01:43:15,040 Speaker 2: told this young thug who came to one of his 1379 01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:17,760 Speaker 2: concerts in New York that he should straighten up and 1380 01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:21,040 Speaker 2: focus on his music instead of getting in trouble with 1381 01:43:21,040 --> 01:43:27,000 Speaker 2: the police and then grabbed a passing NBC executive and 1382 01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:28,960 Speaker 2: asked if he could let the kid try out for 1383 01:43:29,000 --> 01:43:32,920 Speaker 2: the Amateur Hour, and they did, and of of course 1384 01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:36,240 Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra, and that's how Frank Sinatra was unleashed upon 1385 01:43:36,280 --> 01:43:42,080 Speaker 2: the world. Chapter seven is Eastern Europe and all this 1386 01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:48,080 Speaker 2: classical music and Bulgarian women's choirs and the politics of it, 1387 01:43:48,120 --> 01:43:52,040 Speaker 2: and how threatening that was to Stalin, and the whole 1388 01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:57,599 Speaker 2: way that the Communists responded to authenticity and music, and 1389 01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:01,160 Speaker 2: how that shaped music that came out of that part 1390 01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:06,439 Speaker 2: of the world. Chapter eight is the rest of Africa, 1391 01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:12,280 Speaker 2: north of South Africa and people like Usundur and Fela 1392 01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:21,280 Speaker 2: Kuti and the Ethiopics music of Ethiopia and Manudebango and 1393 01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:25,240 Speaker 2: all these stories. There's so many great characters and the politics, 1394 01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:29,880 Speaker 2: the way the politics mixes in. And then chapter nine. 1395 01:44:30,200 --> 01:44:32,640 Speaker 2: You know, when I first started the book, I had 1396 01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:36,160 Speaker 2: this vision of chapter nine in which I would talk 1397 01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:39,479 Speaker 2: about each of the receiving countries. I've talked about all 1398 01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:43,280 Speaker 2: the sending countries. I'd have big sections on the difference 1399 01:44:43,320 --> 01:44:48,719 Speaker 2: between the way America and Britain and Germany and France, 1400 01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:53,040 Speaker 2: all responded to music from abroad. But by the time 1401 01:44:53,120 --> 01:44:56,639 Speaker 2: I got there, I had a publisher saying, come on, 1402 01:44:56,800 --> 01:44:59,519 Speaker 2: are we ever going to put this book out? And 1403 01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:02,640 Speaker 2: I was exhausted. And I'd also covered most of that 1404 01:45:02,720 --> 01:45:05,559 Speaker 2: in each of the chapters, in the individual stories, and 1405 01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:08,760 Speaker 2: I realized that my idea for that was kind of bogus, 1406 01:45:09,240 --> 01:45:14,360 Speaker 2: or at least not going to work. And so I 1407 01:45:14,400 --> 01:45:18,280 Speaker 2: did more of a kind of impressionistic scattershot through the 1408 01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:25,799 Speaker 2: centuries of Western culture and how it absorbs and deals 1409 01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:31,400 Speaker 2: with the arrival of music with a foreign accent on 1410 01:45:31,520 --> 01:45:36,559 Speaker 2: its shores. And I tell the terrible, sad story of 1411 01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:40,080 Speaker 2: the birth of auto tune and the birth of the 1412 01:45:40,160 --> 01:45:44,160 Speaker 2: drum machine. And that's it. That's the book. 1413 01:45:46,360 --> 01:45:49,439 Speaker 1: So in writing the book, did you just write from 1414 01:45:49,520 --> 01:45:51,800 Speaker 1: memory and r own experiences or did you have to 1415 01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:52,519 Speaker 1: do research? 1416 01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:56,639 Speaker 2: I did a huge amount of research. If you see 1417 01:45:56,640 --> 01:45:59,320 Speaker 2: the bibliography in the back of the book, there's pages 1418 01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:03,639 Speaker 2: and pages and pages. And it was fun. I mean, 1419 01:46:03,680 --> 01:46:07,000 Speaker 2: I read all these great books, many of them are 1420 01:46:08,720 --> 01:46:12,720 Speaker 2: by academics, and they're quite dry in the way that 1421 01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:16,400 Speaker 2: they lay everything out. And so in a way, I 1422 01:46:16,760 --> 01:46:20,879 Speaker 2: felt my role became a digest, like a reader's digest. 1423 01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:26,080 Speaker 2: You know, I was reading all these thick books about 1424 01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:31,320 Speaker 2: tango and about Afro Cuban culture and about how to 1425 01:46:31,479 --> 01:46:35,400 Speaker 2: tune the kora, and you know, these things and taking 1426 01:46:35,439 --> 01:46:39,080 Speaker 2: the best bits, the most fun, the most character full, 1427 01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:44,439 Speaker 2: you know, the most the easiest to connect to music 1428 01:46:44,439 --> 01:46:48,160 Speaker 2: people might have heard, and writing them in them as 1429 01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:49,719 Speaker 2: entertaining a way as I could. 1430 01:46:51,360 --> 01:46:56,960 Speaker 1: Okay, now the landscape is who change. It's certainly at 1431 01:46:56,960 --> 01:47:00,559 Speaker 1: this late date we have these streaming services and close 1432 01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:05,600 Speaker 1: to every country in the world. Two things have happened. One, 1433 01:47:05,800 --> 01:47:09,000 Speaker 1: the share of the overall marketplace of both the UK 1434 01:47:09,160 --> 01:47:13,720 Speaker 1: and the US has decreased. And you've also, specifically in 1435 01:47:13,760 --> 01:47:18,559 Speaker 1: the US seen other genres that in the history had 1436 01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:23,719 Speaker 1: a small footprint have become much larger, like Latin bad 1437 01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:27,040 Speaker 1: money in the UK, I mean in the US. Do 1438 01:47:27,120 --> 01:47:33,120 Speaker 1: you think this cross pollination will continue such that roots music, 1439 01:47:33,200 --> 01:47:37,559 Speaker 1: world music will have a greater profile going forward. 1440 01:47:38,800 --> 01:47:41,720 Speaker 2: I think it will definitely continue. I think it's an 1441 01:47:41,760 --> 01:47:48,920 Speaker 2: interesting and hopefully maybe positive thing. My caveat my asterisk 1442 01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:55,320 Speaker 2: is the machine. You know, one of the things that 1443 01:47:55,400 --> 01:48:01,160 Speaker 2: always really startled me was how in the world of rap, 1444 01:48:01,240 --> 01:48:08,280 Speaker 2: for example, Jay z in the early days. You know, 1445 01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:12,120 Speaker 2: I believe, I'm not. I don't have chapter and verse 1446 01:48:12,200 --> 01:48:15,640 Speaker 2: on this, but my understanding is that most of his 1447 01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:23,240 Speaker 2: beats were created by an English guy who was went 1448 01:48:23,280 --> 01:48:26,720 Speaker 2: to I don't know, Marlborough or something public school, boy 1449 01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:33,360 Speaker 2: private school, as we say in America, that somehow this 1450 01:48:33,560 --> 01:48:40,800 Speaker 2: process of the modern way of recording is built around technology. 1451 01:48:40,840 --> 01:48:44,479 Speaker 2: It is built around people who can create beats with 1452 01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:50,479 Speaker 2: a computer and sampling and grabbing stuff from here and there. 1453 01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:57,400 Speaker 2: And I mean, Burn, a boy from Nigeria, has become 1454 01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:02,360 Speaker 2: much huger than any than CUTI ever was around the world. 1455 01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:06,040 Speaker 2: But you know, most of his records I don't find 1456 01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:09,880 Speaker 2: very interesting because to me, music lives in the rhythm, 1457 01:49:10,040 --> 01:49:15,120 Speaker 2: and when the rhythm sounds mechanical, it doesn't sound as 1458 01:49:15,160 --> 01:49:18,160 Speaker 2: interesting to me. But then I saw burna boy on 1459 01:49:18,680 --> 01:49:22,280 Speaker 2: tiny desk concert and he was terrific, and he seemed 1460 01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:25,920 Speaker 2: me playing just really like just playing with his band, 1461 01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:32,160 Speaker 2: and that was great. Where this music goes, how much 1462 01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:36,160 Speaker 2: it continues, I still have this prejudice or this belief 1463 01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:44,840 Speaker 2: that rhythm is the heart and soul of music. And 1464 01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:52,040 Speaker 2: so if all this fusion that came about in the 1465 01:49:52,160 --> 01:49:56,080 Speaker 2: nineties and the naughties that out grew out of the 1466 01:49:56,120 --> 01:49:59,240 Speaker 2: world music movement. Most of it, to me was uninteresting 1467 01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:04,160 Speaker 2: because they took the exotic part was the melody, the 1468 01:50:04,200 --> 01:50:09,160 Speaker 2: singing some great player on some instrument from some culture, 1469 01:50:10,080 --> 01:50:14,480 Speaker 2: but they put it over a mid Atlantic pulse generated 1470 01:50:14,560 --> 01:50:17,920 Speaker 2: often by a machine, and to me it's the other 1471 01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:21,040 Speaker 2: way around. I'm much You know Evil papase Off the 1472 01:50:21,080 --> 01:50:25,719 Speaker 2: Bulgarian wedding band that I recorded, He's an incredible musician. 1473 01:50:25,720 --> 01:50:28,760 Speaker 2: He has an fantastic drummer. I don't care what kind 1474 01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:31,240 Speaker 2: of melody he plays. He can play a Bulgarian melody, 1475 01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:34,360 Speaker 2: he can play when the Saints go marching in. But 1476 01:50:34,400 --> 01:50:38,920 Speaker 2: if he has that eleven eight weird ball can beat 1477 01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:43,360 Speaker 2: being played by these incredible musicians he has. That's exciting. 1478 01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:47,679 Speaker 2: That's the kind of fusion I like. And so when 1479 01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:51,160 Speaker 2: I hear this popular music, I mean, it's great that 1480 01:50:51,240 --> 01:50:54,840 Speaker 2: the world is getting smaller and in many ways, but 1481 01:50:54,920 --> 01:50:59,200 Speaker 2: I do think that for me, music that is specific 1482 01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:05,160 Speaker 2: to a vow or a town or a coastline is 1483 01:51:05,240 --> 01:51:08,800 Speaker 2: always much more interesting than music that is homogenized, that 1484 01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:11,840 Speaker 2: is a blend of lots of things, Which isn't to 1485 01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:15,120 Speaker 2: say that any music is pure. No music is pure. 1486 01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:20,960 Speaker 2: Everything is influenced by its neighbors, by sailors who come 1487 01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:24,040 Speaker 2: into port, by things people hear over the radio, by 1488 01:51:24,080 --> 01:51:27,519 Speaker 2: records they buy, and that process has just gotten speeded up. 1489 01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:35,080 Speaker 2: But I do think that eccentricity and local difference is 1490 01:51:35,160 --> 01:51:40,280 Speaker 2: still the most exciting thing for me about music. And 1491 01:51:40,320 --> 01:51:42,800 Speaker 2: so when I hear beats that sound the same, whether 1492 01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:49,640 Speaker 2: they come from Hong Kong or Cartagena or Baltimore or Hamburg, 1493 01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:55,240 Speaker 2: when they're similar, rhythms, even if the language is being sung, 1494 01:51:55,280 --> 01:51:56,680 Speaker 2: are different to me. 1495 01:51:58,720 --> 01:52:02,879 Speaker 1: You know, it's okay, okay, But everything you're saying is interesting. 1496 01:52:02,880 --> 01:52:06,880 Speaker 1: But I got to ask question rhythm, viz A the 1497 01:52:07,400 --> 01:52:11,000 Speaker 1: melody now more than ever. And you say you're not 1498 01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:13,599 Speaker 1: following this closely, But I think you're aware, at least 1499 01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:16,880 Speaker 1: from a thirty thousand foot perspective, a lot of the 1500 01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:20,360 Speaker 1: hit music today has little melody. 1501 01:52:21,360 --> 01:52:25,840 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I was very gratified. About six months ago 1502 01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:29,080 Speaker 2: there was an article in the New York Times, and 1503 01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:31,880 Speaker 2: I've been saying this. I've been boring people at dinner 1504 01:52:31,880 --> 01:52:36,800 Speaker 2: parties for twenty years or ten years anyway, with my 1505 01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:44,520 Speaker 2: rant about melody. You know, to me modern most melody 1506 01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:50,840 Speaker 2: that you hear singer songwriters, pop tunes, you know, there's 1507 01:52:50,920 --> 01:52:54,360 Speaker 2: so little what I there's a term that I just 1508 01:52:54,400 --> 01:52:56,920 Speaker 2: seemed like a logical to the right term to use, 1509 01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:04,680 Speaker 2: melodic amplitude. There was such narrow bands for the melodies. 1510 01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:07,599 Speaker 2: Melodies would go up and down by a half tone, 1511 01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:12,120 Speaker 2: maybe a full tone. Cactus Tree by Joni Mitchell, you know, 1512 01:53:12,360 --> 01:53:19,040 Speaker 2: Cactus Tree. You know, octave leaps. Nobody does that anymore, 1513 01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:23,439 Speaker 2: you know, it's like and to me it's who knows 1514 01:53:23,479 --> 01:53:27,920 Speaker 2: what the real reason is. But you could imagine that 1515 01:53:28,040 --> 01:53:36,439 Speaker 2: people are so I don't know, constrained and nervous that 1516 01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:40,519 Speaker 2: they don't dare take an octave leap, like Jonny Mitchell, 1517 01:53:41,400 --> 01:53:44,840 Speaker 2: you know that it's too much of an adventure to 1518 01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:47,559 Speaker 2: leap more than one note or two notes at a time. 1519 01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:54,360 Speaker 2: And so yes, I agree that melody in modern popular 1520 01:53:54,439 --> 01:54:02,920 Speaker 2: music is very often startlingly flat somehow. 1521 01:54:05,680 --> 01:54:08,080 Speaker 1: Okay, we got a number of things. We got the melody, 1522 01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:11,559 Speaker 1: we got the rhythm, we got electronic. But I think 1523 01:54:12,040 --> 01:54:14,240 Speaker 1: we're gonna close it for here. We'll have to do 1524 01:54:14,280 --> 01:54:17,360 Speaker 1: another podcast where we get into some of the well 1525 01:54:17,439 --> 01:54:22,040 Speaker 1: worn successes with Nick Drake and Richard Thompson try to 1526 01:54:22,040 --> 01:54:24,719 Speaker 1: get in some nook and crannies the other people haven't. 1527 01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:26,720 Speaker 1: I could talk to you all day, Joe, but I 1528 01:54:26,760 --> 01:54:28,960 Speaker 1: want to thank you so much for taking this time 1529 01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:29,799 Speaker 1: with my audience. 1530 01:54:30,800 --> 01:54:36,440 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for tolerating my technological deficiencies occasionally. And 1531 01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:40,720 Speaker 2: it's been a great pleasure. And I'm glad to see 1532 01:54:40,720 --> 01:54:43,440 Speaker 2: the sun is shining in southern California out here window. 1533 01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:45,800 Speaker 3: Absolutely until next time. 1534 01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:47,280 Speaker 1: This is Bob Leftstats