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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking news Savannah Guthrie's mother,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie missing, day twenty. How is this happening? Good evening,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The theory of an accomplice making Nancy guthries kidnapping possible

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Speaker 1: is brewing, bubbling, surfacing up. What do we know about

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Speaker 1: an accomplice? What is the theory behind that? Not only

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Speaker 1: that the drum beat louder that somehow a Mexican cartel

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Speaker 1: is involved. I find that very difficult to believe. Nothing

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Speaker 1: about Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping has any hallmark of a cartel operation.

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Speaker 1: This as Google is working fast and furious to recover

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Speaker 1: even more video, possibly audience, biological matter.

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Speaker 3: And DNA found in the home.

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Speaker 1: This as Sheriff Nanos blurts out more strategic information, that

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Speaker 1: being that he thinks there's an accomplice and that he

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Speaker 1: believes Nancy Guthrie is being held close to home. Nia's

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Speaker 1: flash accomplice. We know about you, and the Sheriff's looking

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Speaker 1: for you. Way to go, Nanos, You're like a gumball machine.

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Speaker 1: I said it last night.

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Speaker 3: It's up here. It just comes out. You can't stop it.

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Speaker 1: Not only that revealing his belief that Nancy Guthrie is

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Speaker 1: close to home. Is that why we see raids on neighbors?

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Speaker 1: All this is happening now and more straight out to

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Speaker 1: Dave Mac, Crime Stories investigative reporter and as we mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: Dave Mac, the Guthrie family feeling the onus upon them

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Speaker 1: to try and get searches started in Mexico. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it just never ends with all their going through.

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Speaker 3: You know, Dave, let me just be blunt.

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Speaker 1: You and I have talked many, many, many times off camera.

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Speaker 3: You were a guest, one of my.

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Speaker 1: Favorite guests all the way back at HLN.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you recall that or not.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I remember, yeah, good times. But Dave, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how I would have done it if right

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Speaker 1: after my fiance was murdered, I was told, okay, now

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Speaker 1: you help us solve it, okay and get busy.

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Speaker 3: It's insane.

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Speaker 1: But Savannah, our friend, Savannah Guthrie, feels they have to

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Speaker 1: reach out to groups in Mexico to try and find

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Speaker 1: her mother. I mean, insanity. But let's start with the latest. Man,

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Speaker 1: I was blurting out he believes that Nancy Guthrie is

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Speaker 1: being held close to home.

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Speaker 3: Why is he saying that?

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Speaker 1: And about an accomplice? What about those polygraphs? You've heard

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Speaker 1: nothing about them. Bring me up to date, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, Nancy the accomplice. Let's start with the accomplice because

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Speaker 4: this goes to the nitty gritty of you know, you

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Speaker 4: talked about how Nanos just his blurting stuff the other day.

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Speaker 5: That's what he was doing.

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Speaker 4: He blurted out that he believes there's an accomplice. And

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Speaker 4: the suggestion is that we have the video of the

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Speaker 4: bungling burglar at the front door, or the bungling kidnapper,

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Speaker 4: not burglar, and we don't see a second person, but

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Speaker 4: we know we've got an eighty four year old woman

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Speaker 4: who lacks mobility and is going to need help to

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Speaker 4: leave a lot of a lot of what Nanos is saying,

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Speaker 4: I really think he's just kind of theorizing in his

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Speaker 4: head and just blurting out ideas because he doesn't know

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Speaker 4: what to say.

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Speaker 5: But Nancy's suggesting.

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Speaker 1: Do you recall what I told you my elected district attorney.

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Speaker 3: He was like a grandfather to meet. Lewis Layton.

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Speaker 1: At the time, he was the longest serving elected d

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Speaker 1: eight in the country. I believe it was thirty seven years.

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Speaker 1: And he had a rule, do not speak to the press,

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Speaker 1: And whenever I would be cornered coming in or out

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Speaker 1: of the courthouse, I would always say the same thing

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Speaker 1: they seemingly never caught on. I would always say, I

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Speaker 1: believe the jury will return a true verdict.

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Speaker 3: That's it. That would be it.

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Speaker 1: So all the spinning out, let's say, I'm just talking

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Speaker 1: out loud.

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Speaker 3: It's insane.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge, huge no no to Franz Borcart joining us,

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Speaker 1: a criminal defense attorney, founder of Borcart's law firm, former prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: professor a Louisiana State University. Franz, that's just what the

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Speaker 1: defense team would love and what the kidnapper loves.

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Speaker 3: He is, and it's a he.

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Speaker 1: He is getting all of his information any think he

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Speaker 1: needs to know from nanos.

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Speaker 6: I can't believe they are still taught looking to the press.

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Speaker 6: And you're absolutely right, Nancy. As a defense attorney, I'm

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Speaker 6: just taking notes. I'm sitting back and I'm going to

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Speaker 6: do a search for any and everything that was said

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Speaker 6: before the arrest, because eventually they're going to make an

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Speaker 6: arrest on this one. But yeah, he needs to shut

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Speaker 6: his hole and just and stop because he's not helping

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Speaker 6: the investigation.

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Speaker 3: No, he's not.

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Speaker 1: And you know another thing of fronts my elected district attorneys,

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Speaker 1: who for me is a gold standard. He never well,

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Speaker 1: he did do some pressers, but it would always be

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Speaker 1: the same. There would be a group of people nanos

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Speaker 1: is cherry picking the teacher's pets that throw softball questions.

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Speaker 3: And interviewing with them.

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Speaker 1: But they don't really have to ask him much because

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Speaker 1: he'll just keep on thinking out loud. Okay, I can

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Speaker 1: talk about Nana's all day. That's not advancing the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And early this morning, Dave Mack texted me Savannah Guthrie

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Speaker 1: may not go back to the Today Show. Dave, I

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Speaker 1: understand your interest in our friends Savannah and what's gonna

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Speaker 1: happen with the Today's Show, But really, to everyone on

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Speaker 1: the panel, Savannah's future intentions about her career have nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with advancing the search for Nancy Guthrie. So

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Speaker 1: let's leave her at Her efforts regarding the Today Show

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Speaker 1: are not out of this equation has nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with this. That's just office politics going on in New

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Speaker 1: York City. She's in the fight of her life trying

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Speaker 1: to find her mother. Okay, let's get down to it.

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Speaker 1: These are some ideas I came up with. Okay, Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Franks, and everybody on the panel.

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Speaker 3: Look around.

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Speaker 1: We're not in eighth grade science class. I'm not your

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Speaker 1: teacher calling on you. So if you have anything to add,

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Speaker 1: your awesome experts, your experts in your field, jump in

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Speaker 1: with me.

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Speaker 7: First.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, with an

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Speaker 1: incredible criminal program there, author of Blood Beneath My Feet

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Speaker 1: on Amazon, of Hitting You podcast Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: That aside, he's a death investigator over ten thousand death

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Speaker 1: scenes of all sorts, not just murder, but accidental, natural suicide,

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Speaker 1: unexplained the works ten thousand in counting, Joe Scott, listen

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Speaker 1: to this jump in first of all behavioral Clues Control Room.

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Speaker 3: Could I please.

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Speaker 1: See the video from the get go and especially the

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Speaker 1: part where the front porch guy is rooting around trying

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Speaker 1: to get that foliage to cover up the door cam.

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Speaker 1: And hey, Joe Scott as an aside. Good thing that

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Speaker 1: he disabled the door cam because now we know it

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Speaker 1: would have recorded over this video if he had not

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Speaker 1: dismantled it.

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Speaker 3: So he kind of did me a favor in that

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Speaker 3: small way.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 1: Really idiot, Okay, So behavioral clues Joe Scott watch him

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Speaker 1: when he got when he's down there trying to get

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Speaker 1: the foliage it many people believe, and I'm still looking

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Speaker 1: for it, but many people believe the suspect makes a

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Speaker 1: gesture to someone off camera right after he removes the foliage.

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Speaker 1: He seems to be looking off. Also, many people believe

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Speaker 1: that he gestures or nods or something off Kim okay.

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Speaker 1: Also maneuvering Missus Guthrie. You know, Joe Scott, you know

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Speaker 1: my mom.

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Speaker 3: She lives with me.

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Speaker 1: She's ninety four and she's a tiny, little bitty thing.

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Speaker 1: But even me trying to get her up, I'll have

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Speaker 1: to call somebody to help me because it's hard you

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Speaker 1: lose control of them that could fall. It's really a

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Speaker 1: two person job maneuvering Missus Guthrie around. Also, there's multiple

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Speaker 1: stranger DNA in the home. We have been told multiple

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Speaker 1: stranger DNA, not someone close to Missus.

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Speaker 3: Guthrie, not anybody in the family.

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Speaker 1: The complex logistics, very complex LEGIONI. For instance, if the

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Speaker 1: ransom note is connected. If it's connected, that is a

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Speaker 1: very sophisticated bitcoin demand. And not only that, the most

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Speaker 1: recent note asks for a bitcoin alternative, something like Monaro, which,

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Speaker 1: as you know, it masks the sender and the receiver.

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Speaker 1: And this it's invisible on the blockchain, the way that

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Speaker 1: most bitcoin is tracked and trace. That's how the FBI,

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Speaker 1: the dj the IRS busts bitcoin fraud through the blockchain analysis.

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Speaker 1: It's really simple. It sounds difficult, but the way that

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Speaker 1: transactions are entered, it's like a big Google shared doc.

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Speaker 1: It looks like it's posted in blocks. That's just it

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Speaker 1: looks like blocks. So they call it a block chain analysis.

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Speaker 1: You follow the transaction until you get to the sender.

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Speaker 1: Great potential for a lookout. Who is driving moving her

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Speaker 1: to the first location and possibly a secondary or tertiary location.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott could take two people, so there's a lot

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Speaker 1: suggesting an accomplice and also control room. If you could

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Speaker 1: show me the backpack photo and the no backpack photo

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Speaker 1: juxtaposed against each other, so who gave him the backpack?

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Speaker 3: How did that happen?

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Speaker 1: See at one juncture he has the backpack one he

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Speaker 1: doesn't and do not go down the rabbit hole with

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Speaker 1: Dave Matt who said, it's really two people that look identical,

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Speaker 1: same stature, wearing the exact same clothes. Don't do that,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, do not? Okay, hit me accomplice?

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Speaker 7: Well, the biggest tell, and I got to tell you

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Speaker 7: it's breaking news here. I had not seen this before.

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Speaker 7: And that is where he looks off camera to his

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Speaker 7: left after he's retrieved these bits of grass and the weeds.

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Speaker 7: It looks like the and he actually takes it and

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Speaker 7: slaps the top of his hand as he's looking away

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Speaker 7: from the camera at that point in time. It's very noticeable.

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Speaker 7: I don't know if our folks in production can freeze that,

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Speaker 7: but it's a huge tell to me when he grabs it,

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Speaker 7: you know, and it looks like he's communicating with somebody

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Speaker 7: right there. So to me, the.

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Speaker 1: Gesture that must be the gesture Joe Scott, good eye.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so's he's acknowledging the person to his left and

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Speaker 7: he's doing this tapping. And here's something else, Nancy. I

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Speaker 7: wonder if if they're doing this if that is an

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Speaker 7: actual nonverbal sign where they're trying to remain quiet at

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Speaker 7: this point in time, and how can the other person

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Speaker 7: seem well? Remember one of the things that they've prattled

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Speaker 7: on about in this case is that the neighbors had

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Speaker 7: complained at some point in time that lights all up

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Speaker 7: and down the street were to write, and at some

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Speaker 7: point in time they dimmed this area. I don't know

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Speaker 7: when that was, but that person must be in pretty

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Speaker 7: close proximity to him for him just that little simple

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Speaker 7: hand motion for him to pick up on it. What's

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Speaker 7: he trying to do is he's trying to explain you

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Speaker 7: know what he's doing. I've got this now, I'm going

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Speaker 7: to cover the cam. Don't want to go too far field.

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Speaker 7: But again, this goes to kind of either an incredible

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Speaker 7: lack a presence of boldness or lack of preparedness. It

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Speaker 7: would seem to me if you have an awareness of

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Speaker 7: a nest cam before writhing, why wouldn't you have a

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Speaker 7: piece of duct tape that you're just going to take

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Speaker 7: and quickly slap it up there and then be done

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Speaker 7: with that piece. But yeah, what what a hell of

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Speaker 7: a mistake to make to rip this thing off, and

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Speaker 7: then it's on the cloud and it's still it's still

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Speaker 7: recording at this point in time. I don't know. To me,

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Speaker 7: it just seems like a lack of forethought. They've got

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Speaker 7: a lot of the pieces in place here, and I

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Speaker 7: you know, as far as a ransom note and that

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Speaker 7: sort of thing, I don't know about the connectivity of

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Speaker 7: all of that, but so much of it seems like

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Speaker 7: you've got opportunity that investigators would have had and maybe

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Speaker 7: had missed at critical moments. And then you've got the

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Speaker 7: Apple Dumpling Gang, if that's what this is, that are

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Speaker 7: just kind of bumbling their way through this thing.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray too. Brian, It's Gibbons joining us,

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Speaker 1: and Brian, I'm going to circle back to you on

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Speaker 1: the possibility that this is a cartel operation, which is

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Speaker 1: far fetched, extremely far fetched.

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Speaker 3: I'll get you to.

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Speaker 1: Explained why so we can put that away and get

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Speaker 1: it off our table of analysis. Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us.

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Speaker 1: He's the director of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security. What

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Speaker 1: is that He leads a team of investigators around the

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Speaker 1: world finding missing people.

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Speaker 3: He is a marine vet. He is a former marine

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Speaker 3: and an Iraqi war vet.

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Speaker 1: Let me talk to you about the possibility of an accomplice,

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Speaker 1: because it's been out there circulating and the Nanas blurted

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Speaker 1: it out that he thinks there may be an accomplice.

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Speaker 3: Why he said that, I mean.

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Speaker 1: Really, it's just like waving the red flag in front

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Speaker 1: of a bull. It's like putting on the overhead speaker

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Speaker 1: in high school. We now know there's an accomplice and

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Speaker 1: we're coming after you, which in my mind would only

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Speaker 1: make the accomplice panic. But that said, what leads you

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Speaker 1: to agree or disagree regarding an accomplice.

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Speaker 8: I certainly agree with that, Nancy. I've been saying this

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Speaker 8: since we started covering in this case. First of all,

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Speaker 8: just like we call him, you know, the bungling kidnapper

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Speaker 8: on the porch, this is indicative to me that he's

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Speaker 8: being controlled and supervised by somebody, That he did not

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Speaker 8: do this alone, that this was just a foot soldier

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Speaker 8: that was sent forward, you know, to disable that camera

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Speaker 8: and gain entry to the house. So I think his

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Speaker 8: lack of sophistication on that porch itself shows that there's

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Speaker 8: there's someone else involved who's his superior.

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Speaker 1: Nobody is binding about the backpack. I keep saying it

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Speaker 1: and nobody's touching it. With ten footpol fitz Gibbons, he

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Speaker 1: comes up to the saying.

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Speaker 3: Let's say hi. When he first approaches.

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Speaker 1: Who gave him the backpack? Because there is absolutely a

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Speaker 1: moment he doesn't have the backpack. Where did it go?

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Speaker 1: Who gave it to him? Was it in the car?

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Speaker 1: Did he have to go retrieve it? And then he

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Speaker 1: put it back in the car. So if there is

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Speaker 1: a car, trust me, he didn't leave it laying out

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Speaker 1: on the front lawn. So if there's a car, is

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Speaker 1: somebody in the car, you really think, just think about

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Speaker 1: it forensically, clinically.

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Speaker 3: Would he do this alone?

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Speaker 1: Because the reason I care, mis Gibbons is the more

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Speaker 1: people involved, the more likely somebody's gonna talk. You've got

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Speaker 1: an extra girlfriend, you've got an extra grandma or mom,

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Speaker 1: or an extra neighbor or little sister. Somebody knows something's up,

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Speaker 1: and that reward is climbing. That's why I care. If

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Speaker 1: there's an accomplice, they can both go straight to hell

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Speaker 1: and burn for all I care, But I want to

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Speaker 1: catch them. So what do you think about the backpack aspect?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and there's one.

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Speaker 8: I agree with you there that that backpack wouldn't have

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Speaker 8: just been placed on the ground on randomly. In that

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Speaker 8: first video, when you see him approaching the porch, there's

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Speaker 8: a shadow being cast from the left to the right,

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Speaker 8: all right, indicative of that motion light that was destroyed.

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Speaker 8: When you later see him without the backpack on, there

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Speaker 8: is no there is no similar shadow. So you can

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Speaker 8: extrapolate from that that you know he may have had

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Speaker 8: tools either to gain access or to destroy that light,

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Speaker 8: which we know was indeed destroyed on that side of

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Speaker 8: the house.

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Speaker 3: So how does that fit into the accomplished theory?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, that's he's passing off that equipment after he's done

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Speaker 8: with it, either storing it in a car because you know,

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Speaker 8: now it's pitch black out in front of the house.

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Speaker 5: You're not just going to leave the backpack and the

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Speaker 5: pitch black on.

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Speaker 1: The ground, you know, Brians Gibbons, that's really astute. Let

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Speaker 1: me keep looking at this while Brian talks because I

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Speaker 1: want to. I want everyone to see what he's talking about.

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Speaker 1: You're right, when he walks up, there is the shadow.

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Speaker 1: You can see that that bright nightlight is on, and

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Speaker 1: it's not just his bite light it's lit up behind

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Speaker 1: and behind the bite light as well. Okay, then as

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Speaker 1: you look later without the backpack, everything's dark. I don't

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Speaker 1: believe he climbed up and dismantled that night light on

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Speaker 1: his own. That's a really good point, joining me. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Michelle Joy, forensic clinical academic psychiatrist, author of The Schmuck

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Speaker 1: in My Office. You can find her at wes Philly

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Speaker 1: Morbid Art. Doctor Michelle, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of the psychological evaluation of whether

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Speaker 1: he had an accomplice?

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Speaker 3: Did he do this all on his own?

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Speaker 5: I think.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot to be garnered from the video, as

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Speaker 2: the other people interviewed so far have said, But I

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Speaker 2: think that what makes the most sense to me is

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Speaker 2: his lack of factileness with everything right. I know that

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Speaker 2: exactly that gun there Some other former FBI agents had

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Speaker 2: spoken about just his lack of expertise with carrying a firearm.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of polstered in front of him and waving

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Speaker 2: around and things like this. So I think that his

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Speaker 2: lack of sophistication makes me agree with the previous person

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Speaker 2: that was interviewed, was that there's someone else directing most

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Speaker 2: likely this because the if being this bumbling as we've

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Speaker 2: used the word so far, just at the intro to

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Speaker 2: the scene, you wouldn't think that he would have coordinated,

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Speaker 2: you know, anything successful enough to not only have this

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Speaker 2: person and when I say successfully, obviously tragically successfully to

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Speaker 2: you know, be able to extract her and to have

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Speaker 2: her you know, disappear for this long. It just seems

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Speaker 2: like something would have gone wrong from his perspective, you know,

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Speaker 2: being a lone.

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Speaker 3: Actor crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Now there is the specter of cartel involvement, but after

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Speaker 1: speaking to border patrol officers and experts in the area,

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Speaker 1: I don't buy it. Cartels usually target people within Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Can anybody on this panel name a single US citizen

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Speaker 1: taken from.

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Speaker 3: The US buy the cartels? Obviously no.

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Speaker 1: So I've noticed in cartel schemes they typically correspond to

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Speaker 1: local events, local extortion plots, business dealings, drug issues. To

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Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons, do you agree or disagree you have rescue

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Speaker 1: people out of Mexico? Does this had any resemblance to

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Speaker 1: a cartail job?

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Speaker 5: Not at all, Nancy.

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Speaker 8: The primary reason is, just like you said, this is

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Speaker 8: a US citizen high profile and nature. This is going

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Speaker 8: to draw an incredible amount of and it has drawn

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Speaker 8: an incredible amount of media attention and an incredible amount

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Speaker 8: of unwanted.

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Speaker 5: Attention to the cartel from the US federal government.

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Speaker 8: The second point that I'm going to make is all

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Speaker 8: the hallmarks of a typical cartel ransom and kidnapping, a

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Speaker 8: kidnapping ransom operation are not being met here. There would

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Speaker 8: be a clear and sophistic clear and sophisticated way to pay.

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Speaker 8: They would want to be able to cash out easily

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Speaker 8: and make that process very seamless.

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Speaker 5: This doesn't meet any of those criteria.

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Speaker 1: You know, when it comes to Mexico, Brian has Gibbons.

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Speaker 1: Let's just pretend for one moment that she has been

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Speaker 1: moved to Mexico. That's not playing into all the crazy

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Speaker 1: z any cartel theories. But if she has been moved

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Speaker 1: to Mexico, what do you do to extract someone out

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Speaker 1: of Mexico. We know that the FEDS are accessing iph Emilia,

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Speaker 1: which is the Mexican equivalent of our DNA databank CODIS,

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Speaker 1: although it's used mostly for identifying bodies in murder cases. Also,

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Speaker 1: of course, they're looking internationally at Interpol databases. I think

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Speaker 1: good news is that they are looking at the Arizona database,

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Speaker 1: which is a lot less stringent. You get more information.

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Speaker 1: For instance, suspects are in there, not pristine DNA DNA

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Speaker 1: mixtures are in there. The CODAS databank would not allow

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Speaker 1: everything that is allowed in the Arizona Data Data Bank.

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Speaker 3: And that's good for this case.

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Speaker 1: That's good for the Arizona search because you've got a

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Speaker 1: wider pull, just over half a million profiles in the

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Speaker 1: Arizona Data Bank. But back to Mexico, how would you

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Speaker 1: extract someone from Mexico?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, you first need to understand that Mexico

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Speaker 8: is a very non permissible environment, especially to search for

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Speaker 8: a missing foreign national.

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Speaker 5: This is for a few reasons.

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Speaker 8: One, the levels of local government corruption in Mexico are

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Speaker 8: almost unfathomable to a typical American.

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Speaker 5: Second, wide swaths of territory are.

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Speaker 8: Primarily primarily controlled by cartels. That's both from a physical

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Speaker 8: security perspective and from a political perspective. And that all

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Speaker 8: leads me to say that the public, especially with such

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Speaker 8: a high profile case, will lack an urgency or willingness

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Speaker 8: to be involved in this search.

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Speaker 5: For fear, of reprisals.

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Speaker 8: You know, whether or not the cartel is or is

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Speaker 8: not involved, they do control these areas, so the public

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Speaker 8: will be very apprehensive to participate in this.

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Speaker 5: And that all leads me to say that.

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Speaker 8: Any search in Mexico that's going to be have a

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Speaker 8: positive result is going to come through US federal government

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Speaker 8: diplomatic channels. That is the number one main effort in

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Speaker 8: any search taking place in Mexico too.

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Speaker 1: Franz Borcards joining us, a veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: The relations between US and Mexico up and down, up

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Speaker 1: and down. But crossing the border when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: go into Mexico, it's a lot easier to go into

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Speaker 1: Mexico from the US and to go from Mexico back

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Speaker 1: into the statesm.

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Speaker 3: You're not sure, I believe.

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Speaker 1: Dave mac told me that only one out of twenty

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Speaker 1: five cars get searched going across the border into Mexico.

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Speaker 1: That does make it easier if they.

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Speaker 3: Want to hide her there.

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Speaker 1: But then again, Franz, you've got Nanos blurting out that

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Speaker 1: he believes she's actually close to home.

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Speaker 6: Well, Nanos is an idiot, you know. And again there's

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Speaker 6: lots of different ways of crossing the border that doesn't

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Speaker 6: involve going through a gate. With sense and all that,

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Speaker 6: I don't think we can rely on anything Nanos is suggesting. Now, Look,

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Speaker 6: the big thing for me is is I do not

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Speaker 6: believe that the cartel kidnap this woman. I mean, the

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Speaker 6: cartel does not need bitcoin from the Gusbrie family. Do

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Speaker 6: I believe that there could be an individual who has

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Speaker 6: her in Mexico? Absolutely possible, And we have had joint

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Speaker 6: law enforcement efforts with Mexico before to get people out

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Speaker 6: of Mexico that had been trafficked or kidnapped. We also,

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Speaker 6: the only saving grace, Nancy, is if it is cartel,

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Speaker 6: then our dea, our federal d agents who are affording

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Speaker 6: with Mexican and law enforcement can help out. That's the

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Speaker 6: only advantage of that being true, which it's probably not.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about a different issue to you,

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Speaker 1: Joscott Morgan. We've been told again by Nanos that biological

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Speaker 1: matter he seemed to imply not DNA biological matter was found.

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Speaker 3: What is he talking about? Is it the plant? What

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Speaker 3: is it?

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Speaker 7: Wow? That's that's a very broadswath, Nancy. Yeah, So are

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Speaker 7: we talking about flora or fauna here, you know, animal,

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Speaker 7: animal or vegetable. At this point in time, what would

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00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 7: be implied to me at least is that there is

438
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 7: some kind of deposition that and could he be talking

439
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 7: about some other type of body fluid. I have no idea,

440
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 7: you know, why he would go down this road unless

441
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 7: because you know, there is a field within our practice

442
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 7: of forensics that deals with foliage. Unless they're finding something

443
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 7: that might be connected with grasses, pollens, seeds, those sorts

444
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 7: of things, you know, I cannot imagine. Here's an interesting thing.

445
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 7: If they found something within the house, though, Nancy, that

446
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 7: may have been deposited there and it is not safe.

447
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 7: For instance, Oh, let me give you an example. Let's

448
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 7: just say that these individuals traveled in from another location,

449
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 7: Okay that is not not the same environmentally as what

450
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 7: you see around her house, and they deposited something within

451
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 7: that house, for instance, that is foreign, and they collected it.

452
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 7: Then maybe that's that could potentially be a clue. I

453
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 7: think a lot of us have been thinking that these

454
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 7: individuals that are here may very well be locals in

455
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 7: some way. But that's really the only only route that

456
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 7: I could go down thinking about this very very broad statement.

457
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 7: He's making news.

458
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: Okay, right now DNA is being analyzed. We've heard is

459
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: being said to author him laboratories, the Milmans, who are

460
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: both brilliant.

461
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 3: What do you make of that?

462
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 7: To Scott, I'm elated, absolutely elated. I wish that they

463
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 7: had done this earlier. I've been one of the biggest

464
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 7: voices banging on about this loath these many weeks because

465
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 7: I know personally what David and Kristen can do in

466
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 7: the woodlands in Texas. You know, my biggest fear in

467
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 7: Nancy through all of this is we've heard a lot

468
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 7: about DNA early on, and you know, Da, we all

469
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 7: know that it's very fragile. Now that they've taken whatever

470
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 7: these samples are and they shift them off to Florida,

471
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 7: now they're going to go go to Quantico, which was

472
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 7: probably a profile that they're comparing. I don't know that

473
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 7: the FEDS would have gone back and redone the work

474
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 7: down in Florida, But then you've got it coming down

475
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 7: to Houston. One of the things you run into with

476
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 7: DNA is that you burn through your sample, and you know,

477
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 7: people can say, well, you can always go back and

478
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 7: get more sample. Another hell you can't because if they've

479
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 7: isolated this and they found that, that makes this more

480
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 7: valuable than gold. So I hope that they've taken due care. Now,

481
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 7: with all of that said, if anyone, and I mean

482
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 7: anyone on the face of the planet, I can't bang

483
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 7: on enough about David Middleman, I think he is the

484
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 7: Elon Musk of DNA guys.

485
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: I agree with you, Jos Scott regarding Offram. I only

486
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: hope that it's true. They specialized in degraded, minuscule mixed DNA,

487
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: and they cracked the Joseph DiAngelo Golden State killer case.

488
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: They cracked the Rachel Morin case, where the El Salvadorian

489
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: immigrant had come into the.

490
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: US fleeing a murder charge, sex.

491
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: Assaulted a little girl in La in her own home,

492
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: and then sex assaulted and murdered Rachel morn on the

493
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: Maw and Pa trail, remember that.

494
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: And they were on the Brian Coburger case.

495
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: And you know that goes without describing, because that is

496
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: what broke the case wide open.

497
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 3: A lot happening in the case.

498
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: The fact that Sheriff Nano stated that Guthrie he believes

499
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: is being held close to home. Maybe so at the beginning,

500
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: Brian Fitzgibbons. Maybe at the beginning, but I don't think

501
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: they would have kept her there at the judge. I

502
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: think they would have moved her. But so many crimes

503
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: are committed by those in your close circle or that

504
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: know you family. They've been ruled out according to nanos

505
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: extended beyond that nanny, grandy, nanny's pool cleaners, yard workers,

506
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: people at the church, people that know her delivery guys them,

507
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: and then you go beyond like neighbors. We see that

508
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: a lot, this gibbus, but I don't think they would

509
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: keep her there for this long.

510
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, you're absolutely right.

511
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 8: I mean we have to assume that that one layer

512
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 8: out of that peripheral with peripheral knowledge of missus Guthrie,

513
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 8: you know, the cousin of the pool cleaner, the boy

514
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 8: ex boyfriend of the home health carrying that these are

515
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 8: very likely people in this investigation that they're being looked.

516
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 5: At your point of where where would they keep her?

517
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 5: You know, I agree that you know she would likely

518
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 5: have to have been moved.

519
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 8: There's a ton of heat in Tucson, and everything you're

520
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 8: saying is making a lot of sense.

521
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the

522
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, whether you think it's inconsequential or not,

523
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: please dial toll free eight hundred two two five five

524
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: three two four If you wish to remain anonymous five

525
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: two zero eight eight two seven four sixty three.

526
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 3: There is over two hundred thousand dollars in reward.

527
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for

528
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: keeping the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Nancy Gray signing

529
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: off for tonight, but I'll see you tomorrow night, and

530
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: until then, good night friend,