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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff

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Speaker 1: I've never told your protection. I heart radio. So today

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Speaker 1: we're doing kind of a revisit on two topics, forgiveness

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Speaker 1: and um the death of my father, which we did

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Speaker 1: an episode on, so I did want to This was

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Speaker 1: before we did Big Questions those episodes. So now my

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Speaker 1: question to you is, how are you with forgiveness? Oh

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Speaker 1: that is a really that's a big question, and question

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Speaker 1: obvious as that question is, I still didn't expect it.

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Speaker 1: So this is how good I am at this question thing.

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Speaker 1: I could throw in some real, real curveball, So that's

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Speaker 1: fair you do, I think well as where I was,

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Speaker 1: I'm all over the place and just ask you about

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Speaker 1: random nonsensical things. But yeah, forgiveness, I think I'm actually

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Speaker 1: pretty good at forgiving. I'm one of those who it

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Speaker 1: takes a lot to get angry, and it takes a

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Speaker 1: lot for me to be done with you. And typically

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Speaker 1: when I'm done with you is when I let go

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Speaker 1: of everything. And so therefore it's neither either or but

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Speaker 1: trusting you as a whole other thing. So I feel like,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's of course a big caveat and that's

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Speaker 1: a big conversation of what is forgiveness really? Uh, the

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Speaker 1: whole forgive and forget is I don't think it realistic

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Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be an expectation, but forget and move on.

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's more of my tone. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of that. But I don't forget things. I'm really

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Speaker 1: petty like that. I will say that, and so that

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Speaker 1: will always linger in the back of my head. So

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Speaker 1: I will put myself. If it was the one through

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Speaker 1: tin scale, I'm out of five. Oh, I like this

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Speaker 1: coming up with some metrics. I'm like this. It's the

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Speaker 1: best way I can describe because I want to say

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Speaker 1: I'm better than I think. But then when I honestly

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Speaker 1: talk about whole forgetting and pet moving past, I can

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Speaker 1: move past it. But it's always going to be a

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Speaker 1: haunt for me, right, A haunt? Yes, that's a good

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Speaker 1: way to describe it. Um. I'm similar in that it

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Speaker 1: takes a lot for me to reach the point where

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Speaker 1: I am just done. Um. And when I think of

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Speaker 1: this is something that has been on my mind for

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Speaker 1: a long long time because in our society we do

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Speaker 1: pressure people, especially women to forgive and Um, since we've

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Speaker 1: both gone through trauma like I. I just was so

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Speaker 1: torn by it and like, what if I can't forgive?

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Speaker 1: And I felt like that meant something that's wrong with me.

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Speaker 1: I was being petty And there are some people I

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Speaker 1: want to forgive. I want to, but my body won't.

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Speaker 1: It's not out there yet and that's okay. And um,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to talk today about my forgiveness with

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Speaker 1: my dad, and I think this is the biggest I've

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Speaker 1: never forgiven someone on this level before that I don't

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Speaker 1: have anything else to compare it to. But to reiterate

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Speaker 1: before we start talking about that, this forgiveness is a

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Speaker 1: very personal thing and it's something you don't owe anybody,

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't make you a better person. There is

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Speaker 1: that petty line of holding stuff against people, but in general,

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Speaker 1: it's up to you and it is about the person

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Speaker 1: who has been wrong. And when we did that episode,

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Speaker 1: that was so enlightening and kind of just like lifting

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Speaker 1: the load off of me because we do, or at

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Speaker 1: least in my case, I do think of it as

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Speaker 1: a gift you're giving someone else, but instead it's really

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Speaker 1: has very little to do with them and all to

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Speaker 1: do with what you want and what is right for you,

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Speaker 1: and and just to reiterate, I know we talked about

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Speaker 1: the episode, but a lot of that expectation and a

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Speaker 1: lot of that assumption that women should automatically be forgiving, nurturing,

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Speaker 1: and Karen and especially a placed no women of color,

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Speaker 1: especially black women in general, being told you need to

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Speaker 1: get past it, you need to be the bigger person,

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Speaker 1: Um had the bigger heart. It is complete nonsense and

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Speaker 1: so therefore just weaponized against women in general. So in general,

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Speaker 1: when we talk about not in general, um, overall, and

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Speaker 1: we talk about this, it is for your own self

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Speaker 1: and your own therapeutic level and who you are as

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Speaker 1: an individual. And like she said, you don't owe that

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Speaker 1: to anyone, and no one is deserving of that in general. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's massively. It's changed so much of how I think

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Speaker 1: about things. And it was learning that was a gift, um.

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Speaker 1: But I still catch myself falling into those traps sometimes

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Speaker 1: because that's just how it's frames. It's hard to unlearn things,

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Speaker 1: it really is. And you and I have had really

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Speaker 1: deep conversations lately and in general, uh, and great conversations

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Speaker 1: about the anniversary of her dad's death, which just recently happened. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I know you've processed a lot this year, and

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad we're revisiting that because unfolding that for

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Speaker 1: other people to know does help and it's therapeutic for

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Speaker 1: them as well. But yeah, just to reiterate this, this

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Speaker 1: is very personal, and this is very open, and for

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Speaker 1: those who are not in that mindset, that's fine. But

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Speaker 1: also please understand and he's being very open. Were when

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Speaker 1: we talk about these things with y'all, it's because we

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Speaker 1: want you to be a part of our lives and

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Speaker 1: this is something so personal that it's beneficial for everyone. UM.

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Speaker 1: And then also just understand it takes a lot to

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Speaker 1: be as open as she's going to be and as

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Speaker 1: we are, hopefully you more so than me. I think

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Speaker 1: about stuff like this, yeah, and I suppose before I

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Speaker 1: get into it, UM, trigger warning. I guess if you

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Speaker 1: if you are struggling with UM, grief our forgiveness, maybe

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Speaker 1: don't listen to this one, or just be mindful if

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Speaker 1: you start feeling yourself. I don't think it's going to

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Speaker 1: get that intense, but you know, UM, you never can't.

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Speaker 1: That is one thing I have learned in this year,

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Speaker 1: as you can never ever tell what is going to

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Speaker 1: set you off, and some things you think should don't,

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Speaker 1: some things you are so shocked by. Will Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it's been a year over a year since my

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Speaker 1: dad's death. UM. It's actually his birthday this Saturday, or

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Speaker 1: would have been. UM, and I have forgiven him. I

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Speaker 1: didn't go into too much detail about why our relationship

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Speaker 1: went so bad, but it did. It was really, really bad,

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Speaker 1: and I I was like reveling and telling my friends

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Speaker 1: when he's dead, I'm going to dance on his grave.

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to forgive him. UM. And I never

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Speaker 1: thought I would, Like if you had asked me a

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Speaker 1: year ago, I never would have thought it. UM. I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to, I really do you really fiercely didn't

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Speaker 1: want to. And I've been thinking about that, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's because I was still thinking of it as

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Speaker 1: a gift do you give someone else. I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to give him that gift or make him think like

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Speaker 1: I was fine with what he did, because I'm not

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Speaker 1: fine with what he did and I'm still really angry

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Speaker 1: and I'm still really hurt. But I was still thinking

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Speaker 1: about it in terms of him and not in terms

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Speaker 1: of me. And now the biggest thing I feel is sorry.

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Speaker 1: I feel so sorry for him, and I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what facing death every day does to

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Speaker 1: a person every day for years. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: chronic pain does. I don't know what it's like to

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Speaker 1: have your entire body fail on you. UM And we

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Speaker 1: really didn't know each other, and that's been That's been

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Speaker 1: painful too, is like learning because when he first died,

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Speaker 1: people kept saying, Oh, he'd be so proud of you,

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Speaker 1: and my knee jerk thought was he didn't know me

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Speaker 1: at all. And now I realized I didn't really know

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Speaker 1: him at all either. UM. And we didn't have like

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Speaker 1: meaningful conversations, we didn't share emotions, so that's why I

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Speaker 1: didn't really know what he was going through. And now

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Speaker 1: I do feel a lot of empathy for that. UM

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Speaker 1: And he he did have a rough childhood, and he

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Speaker 1: was raised by a lot of people, and he had

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Speaker 1: a lot of death early on in his life. And UM,

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Speaker 1: he had these abandonment issues that he passed on to me,

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Speaker 1: and I've seen those in my own relationships. And that's

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Speaker 1: hard too, because I'm learning all these things about him.

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Speaker 1: It feels so disorienting, like learning about a different person,

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Speaker 1: and maybe I could have understood my own self better

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Speaker 1: if I had known him, but I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: was seeing him as a real person, as a whole

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Speaker 1: person with these flaws, and he did do a lot

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Speaker 1: of image um and I'm not excusing that, but it's

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Speaker 1: just helped me be more empathetic and it's not something

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Speaker 1: I sought out to do, honestly, I really didn't um.

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Speaker 1: And it does make me sad that I can't let

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Speaker 1: him know that I forgive him now. And that's the

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Speaker 1: thing that people always tell these tells you, and it's

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Speaker 1: so frustrating because people always say you better say what

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Speaker 1: do you want to say now? Because when they die,

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Speaker 1: you won't have the chance and you over credit and

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Speaker 1: I remember being like bah, and it's true and it's

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Speaker 1: so annoying. But I do think I I couldn't have

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Speaker 1: forgiven him when he was alive. I didn't want to,

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Speaker 1: and I honestly think I couldn't have. And there's something

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Speaker 1: kind of relieving about that of just accepting that that's

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Speaker 1: the space I was in and it sucks, but I

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Speaker 1: couldn't have really done anything about it because he hadn't

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Speaker 1: done anything to show me that he was changing, or

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Speaker 1: that he at least recognized the pain he had caused. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, do you think being able to

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Speaker 1: process his death has been a big help in being

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Speaker 1: able to for him forgive him? That If it wasn't

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Speaker 1: for his death, you wouldn't been able to go down

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Speaker 1: this line to actually forget him. So it was inevitable

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't going to happen until he was gone.

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Speaker 1: I think yes, or at least like I think, if

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Speaker 1: he was still alive and he had changed, I still

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have forgiven him by this point. I think it

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Speaker 1: would have taken many, many years if it happened at all. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I guess there is some kind of human nature

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Speaker 1: in there of like you always want what you can't have.

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Speaker 1: Now I can't like share Sharah that I've forgiven him,

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Speaker 1: and I don't like I do feel so much better

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Speaker 1: since I have, I feel lighter. Um. I can't pinpoint

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Speaker 1: when it happened. Again, I really didn't I think it

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Speaker 1: would ever happen, and I wasn't trying to. I just

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Speaker 1: started feeling so sad for him and so sorry for him,

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Speaker 1: and thinking about how like amaze cated he was in

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Speaker 1: the bed and like knowing it was only a matter

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Speaker 1: of time, and how scary that must have been. And

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Speaker 1: to have like his entire family, he alienated his entire

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Speaker 1: family and there was no time to fix it. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I talked to my mom and she's in the

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Speaker 1: same space. I think that you and I talked about

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Speaker 1: that a little bit again, how you were saying that

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Speaker 1: one of the big factors of you not being able

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Speaker 1: to forgive him and what's changed now is because you

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Speaker 1: learned things about his past that he could never tell

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Speaker 1: you before that you're describing it on your own. A b.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't changing, like his behavior continued in that toxic behavior,

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Speaker 1: whether it was out of fear, whether it was out

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Speaker 1: of selfishness, whichever, whether it was maybe even out of pain,

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Speaker 1: as you would say. But when you see a behavior

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Speaker 1: that's not changed, you can't change it for him or

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Speaker 1: for them in general. So therefore, of course, as much

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Speaker 1: as you would like to be able to do so,

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Speaker 1: because you are a giving person and a loving individual,

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Speaker 1: you want to but that again is not on you, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: But yes, that doesn't change the fact you still feel

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Speaker 1: that guilt for something that you weren't able to do.

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Speaker 1: Whether it's because of him or because of you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I can hold on to anger and her like

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Speaker 1: those are the easy one. I know. It takes. It

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Speaker 1: takes so much for me to get to angry, which

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Speaker 1: I actually think is a problem. Um, But when I

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Speaker 1: get it, it's like, oh I am angry to play Katan.

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Speaker 1: She got mad at me, all got real mad at me.

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Speaker 1: I was kind of like, oh, I was so tired

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Speaker 1: of it. This is how our friendship. That sounds right.

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Speaker 1: We're both competitive. Um. One thing I've noticed that's kind

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Speaker 1: of and grief is the same way is people have

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Speaker 1: reacted to it differently, and I think this is also

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Speaker 1: human nature. But I would caution you anybody listening, like,

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Speaker 1: don't people have told me you shouldn't have, like he

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Speaker 1: didn't deserve to be forgiven, you shouldn't have, And then

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Speaker 1: other people have said, well, what does it matter now?

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Speaker 1: But I don't know, like treating it like a weakness

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Speaker 1: that I did, which is so interesting because a lot

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Speaker 1: of our cultural discourse is like, no, it's a strength.

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Speaker 1: But I've gotten a lot of people who have treated

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Speaker 1: it like I've been weak for like a pushover or

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Speaker 1: something um, which is yeah, and I understand. I understand that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I understand, like the knee jerk. Look at all these

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Speaker 1: things he did within any relationship, Um, how could you

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Speaker 1: forgive him? But I would just caution to note, Well,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of like when we had a conversation about

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Speaker 1: the Mexic violence and why women forgive or why women

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Speaker 1: go back. There's a lot of things that we would

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Speaker 1: think we would do on the outside. There's a really

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Speaker 1: easy to spectate and have a judgemental conversation about the

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Speaker 1: dues or dogs or what if. But you really can

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Speaker 1: and that's unfair. You don't matter outside sspect that I

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Speaker 1: just don't matter, and that our opinions should be at

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Speaker 1: least and none unless really asked for. Yeah, yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: that has been one of the most interesting, kind of

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Speaker 1: shocking things I've experienced. Uh and then like questioning, well,

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Speaker 1: don't you think it should have taken longer? Don't you

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Speaker 1: think it should have taken shorter? Everybody does this different ways, um,

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Speaker 1: saying with grief, all right, And it's something else I've noticed,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if this is a good thing

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Speaker 1: or a bad thing, but I've started translating that like

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Speaker 1: this empathy and forgiveness to other people in my life

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Speaker 1: that I've struggled to forgive. I've seen it with my brother.

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Speaker 1: Um I actually ran into one of my abusers lately,

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Speaker 1: and God help me, did I think maybe I should

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Speaker 1: forgive him? And then I was like, why do you

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Speaker 1: think that? Um? So it did. It left a huge

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Speaker 1: lasting impact that I'm still kind of working through of

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Speaker 1: like what is just kind of fall out of what

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Speaker 1: I'm dealing with right now and what's going to actually

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Speaker 1: stick around? I mean, I know, again not to brag

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Speaker 1: about the fact that I'm really friends with any ha

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Speaker 1: ha ha. We did talk a lot about trauma and

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Speaker 1: forgiveness and what that looks like, and you contemplating you know,

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Speaker 1: I regret not forgiving my dad when he was alive.

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Speaker 1: Not regret, but I wish I could be able to

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Speaker 1: tell my dad that I forgave him, and talking about

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Speaker 1: what that means us to the people in your life

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Speaker 1: today who um as traumatized. You're part of that trauma.

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Speaker 1: And it was an interesting conversation you and I had

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Speaker 1: about how trauma affects all relationships and though there was

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Speaker 1: a bigger part to play in this relationship, specific specifically

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Speaker 1: to you. But the fact is that there's this layered

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Speaker 1: story that not everyone knows. Don't you wish it was

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Speaker 1: a movie that just unfolded, Not that you would want

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Speaker 1: to watch a movie about it, but just kind of

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Speaker 1: being able to see the inside of what has happened

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Speaker 1: because it does. Like you said, knowing people's past, knowing

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Speaker 1: people's hurts, knowing people's own issues does help you have

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Speaker 1: more empathy for those people. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: that's not fair to say that that should affect you

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Speaker 1: in any way, as in, you have to forgive them

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Speaker 1: because you know this, come on, give them a sense

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Speaker 1: that's not necessarily fair either. Um, and it is it,

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Speaker 1: and we've talked about it before, but just hold deeper

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Speaker 1: level of trauma and then going through the trauma to

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Speaker 1: find forgiveness and what that looks like, and that there's

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Speaker 1: no time frame, there's no limit honestly, can be after

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Speaker 1: their death and it's still purposeful and it is still effective,

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Speaker 1: and for giving someone after the death is okay, And

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, it is what you've got, but

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Speaker 1: it's not the worst thing that could have happened, if

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. And and then you're talking about running

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Speaker 1: into your abuser. I know I've had that on my own,

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Speaker 1: having to run into abusers or um. And actually we

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Speaker 1: had a remember we had our listener who talked about

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Speaker 1: that as well, and and trying to deal with that

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Speaker 1: and how to how to really go about that and

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Speaker 1: just trying to rush yourself into forgiveness when it may

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Speaker 1: never happen. It's also traumatizing too and really unfair to

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Speaker 1: the individual. So trying to let go of that it's

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Speaker 1: really hard, especially again for women, especially for victims especially,

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Speaker 1: you know, for those survivors, it is the hardest bit.

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Speaker 1: And to push someone to do that as complete lack

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Speaker 1: of humanity. Yeah, yeah, And I do want to say, um,

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Speaker 1: I've been talking through a lot of this in therapy

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Speaker 1: about how this person that abused me and now I

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Speaker 1: feel sorry for them, and now I feel like all

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Speaker 1: these things, and my therapist is always like, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you don't owe them any of that, and you should

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Speaker 1: have compassion for yourself, Like it wasn't your job to

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Speaker 1: have compassion for them. So just keeping that in mind too,

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Speaker 1: is like you're listening to me work through this, you

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Speaker 1: need to keep those things in mind. Um, And it

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Speaker 1: is complicated and it does work differently for different people,

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Speaker 1: and there's not necessarily a better or worse way as

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Speaker 1: long as you're looking out for your health and your

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Speaker 1: mental health and all of that. Quick plug therapy, yes, therapy, Yes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's been shocking to me how many things I'm like, Well,

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Speaker 1: certainly I've worked through that. No. And it is also

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Speaker 1: the benefit of having a good therapist and a good

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Speaker 1: sounding yes. Yes, and and for those who can't get

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Speaker 1: their understandable, but those who have doubts about it are

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Speaker 1: scared to do it. These are the things that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. Why it's important because it's not something that

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Speaker 1: you know. Yes, you're going to have to uncover a

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Speaker 1: lot about yourself, but it's already there and deep seated

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Speaker 1: and affecting you more than you know. Mm hmmm yes, Um,

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Speaker 1: so that's that's sort of where I am. Um. I

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Speaker 1: now have a tradition, I guess where I take a

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Speaker 1: shot of vodka and watch Star Wars on important UH

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Speaker 1: days to my dad, which would be his the anniversary

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Speaker 1: of his death and his birthday. Samantha helped me celebrate

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Speaker 1: one of these instances. Um. Star Wars is a very

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Speaker 1: interesting father's tale. Uh so its again. When you and

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Speaker 1: I had one of these conversations, we had this whole

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Speaker 1: like dissecting of oh, this makes more sense for you

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Speaker 1: than it does for me, because our traumas are very different.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, now I see why you like

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Speaker 1: this so much and why you need this so much,

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, ah, stay away from that completely. Thank you. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting to see how you work things out,

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Speaker 1: and it's okay as long as it's not you know,

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Speaker 1: putting yourself in danger. It's okay, don't work through these things.

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Speaker 1: And I will say any from last year to this year,

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Speaker 1: I'm really proud of the progress you've made. And I know,

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Speaker 1: therapy with something really really scary for you, and the

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Speaker 1: fact that you're still a part of it, you're still

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Speaker 1: in it and you're still working things out, it's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful. And I love seeing the relationship you have

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Speaker 1: with your mom and how your support systems to each other,

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Speaker 1: and it is a beautiful, beautiful relationship. Yeah, um, thank you.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I've noticed for short the benefit of

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Speaker 1: of it for me and especially mindfulness of just kind

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Speaker 1: of realizing like, oh my gosh, this whole time it's

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Speaker 1: really been a trust issue or like, you know, whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. Um. I also just want to strow in

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Speaker 1: there the Last of US two okay, which I've played

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Speaker 1: like four times now in various manners. What it came

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Speaker 1: out right when I was going through all of this,

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Speaker 1: and the ultimate story of that is sort of uh,

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Speaker 1: father and daughter figure and the daughter figure not being

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Speaker 1: able to forgive the father figure once she arrives at

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Speaker 1: that point, because well, you had to play to find out. UM.

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Speaker 1: But I think I've been a part of this as well,

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Speaker 1: and I heard a lot of joel, my heart, my heart,

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Speaker 1: my heart hurts, and I'm like, what is happening? But

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the reasons it was so

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Speaker 1: impactful for me. And clearly this is a story that

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Speaker 1: does resonate with people, because right after my dad died,

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Speaker 1: so many people recommended, um, thanks for me to watch

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Speaker 1: that they thought would cheer me up. And I swear

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Speaker 1: to god, it was almost hilarious how many of them

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Speaker 1: had a missing father figure and usually a daughter who

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Speaker 1: couldn't forgive them. And then my friends felt so bad

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Speaker 1: and they're like, well, I didn't even think about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, A don't worry. It's fine, but clearly you

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Speaker 1: watched Avengers or the Last Avengers one and I was

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Speaker 1: like what what. I'm like, what are you doing to yourself?

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Speaker 1: It's literally a father daughter relationship and that that is traumatizing.

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Speaker 1: What was wrong with you that you can't do it?

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Speaker 1: But you're like, yeah, I kind of forgot. Yeah I did,

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Speaker 1: and then like how to train your dragon, which has

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Speaker 1: that too? I did the whole thing. Oh my gosh. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know you work through it in different with true

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Speaker 1: you like to be in the middle of it. I

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Speaker 1: like to avoid it. I like to feel a field.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, thanks for letting me share this with with everybody. UM,

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Speaker 1: As always, we would love to hear from any listeners.

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Speaker 1: You can email us. Our email is Stuff Media Mom

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Speaker 1: Stuff at iHeart mea dot com. You can find us

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and Stuff I Never Told You. We're on

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Speaker 1: Twitter app Mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks. It's always for our

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Speaker 1: super producers J. J. Posway and Andrew Howard, and thanks

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Speaker 1: to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You's a

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Speaker 1: protection of I Hire Radio from More podcast from I

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Speaker 1: High Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,