Speaker 1: Personally with fuels Man. Happy Monday, friends, I'm really excited
Speaker 1: to have you here this week. We are going to
Speaker 1: change up the podcast just as much. I've always been
Speaker 1: transparent honest with you guys. So usually we do two
Speaker 1: people an episode, an expert and then someone to come
Speaker 1: on and share their real life story. Now that concept
Speaker 1: is not changing. I love it so much and I
Speaker 1: love what it's doing for people, but we're gonna break
Speaker 1: down the episode just a little bit further. So we're
Speaker 1: gonna do one person a time for each episode, but
Speaker 1: two back to back episodes, maybe even three. We'll have
Speaker 1: a similar theme, the same concept, it's just broken down.
Speaker 1: I felt like we were jamming so much good stuff
Speaker 1: into one episode, and I'd love to start to go
Speaker 1: into more depth with some of these interviews. Plus, if
Speaker 1: I'm being totally transparent with you guys, I was starting
Speaker 1: to get some very real burnout just trying to do
Speaker 1: way too much that I don't even have hours in
Speaker 1: the day to sleep or shower. So breaking this down
Speaker 1: not only helps me, but I also feel like it's
Speaker 1: gonna really allow me to continue this podcast in much broader,
Speaker 1: bigger ways. So this week and next we are focused
Speaker 1: on trauma and how that impacts our lives. This week,
Speaker 1: I'm bringing on trauma therapist Lauren Hour. She has years
Speaker 1: of experience working in trauma and this is truly her expertise,
Speaker 1: So she has incredible knowledge for us and it'll be
Speaker 1: really important not only hearing this, but going into next
Speaker 1: week's episode with Hailey Dollar Hide. Lauren Ur is joining
Speaker 1: me right now, and she is a trauma therapist. Lauren,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me on this episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: I'm really excited to know from you. What got you
Speaker 1: into this line of work, specifically this specialty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was unintentional. Originally, when I was in graduate school,
Speaker 2: I didn't really know who I wanted to work with.
Speaker 2: I had some categories of I didn't want to work
Speaker 2: with kids, and I was pretty sure I didn't want
Speaker 2: to work with couples. But I really at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, was like, whatever, I'll just try things out.
Speaker 2: And I ended up getting an internship in a agency
Speaker 2: that worked with both offenders, juvenile offenders as well as
Speaker 2: victims of abuse and their families, and so I had
Speaker 2: really wanted to work with kids. I definitely was like, ah,
Speaker 2: that sounds like the scariest population to work with in
Speaker 2: terms of abuse, and that sounds really heavy, but I
Speaker 2: actually ended up really loving it. It was such a
Speaker 2: unique learning experience, I think, especially working with kind of
Speaker 2: the three layers of victims as well as offenders and
Speaker 2: their family seen trauma from these different angles, and so
Speaker 2: that was it was really fascinating to me, and kind
Speaker 2: of from there, I just ended up landing in similar
Speaker 2: situations in terms of where I was drawn to with
Speaker 2: my work. So I worked at a women's domestic violent
Speaker 2: shelter as well, and then a rape crisis center as
Speaker 2: a therapist where we worked with people of all ages,
Speaker 2: and then I became the director of that center, and
Speaker 2: so at that point I was not only working with
Speaker 2: clients that had experienced a lot of trauma, but I
Speaker 2: was also very much in a role of community outreach.
Speaker 2: So I was doing trainings for like police and medical staff,
Speaker 2: and supervising interns and other therapists, and working with people
Speaker 2: at that vicarious trauma level, so like people in the
Speaker 2: field that we're dealing with maybe their own trauma, but
Speaker 2: also maybe being traumatized by some of the populations they
Speaker 2: were working with. And so it was very interesting to
Speaker 2: me to see things from all these different angles, all
Speaker 2: these different layers, and that center that I worked for,
Speaker 2: we would see people in crisis situation, so we would
Speaker 2: show up at the emergency room, let's say, if they're
Speaker 2: getting like an evidence collection kit done, so like really
Speaker 2: immediate trauma, all the way to people coming in for
Speaker 2: therapy later in life when they hadn't dealt with something
Speaker 2: that maybe happened in their childhood, so like very far
Speaker 2: removed from the trauma. And so it just became these
Speaker 2: put in became something I was really passionate about because
Speaker 2: I feel like I learned so much just from doing
Speaker 2: that work about trauma. Like I'd obviously learned about it
Speaker 2: in grad school and read all the books, but really
Speaker 2: just being in those environments and working with people, it
Speaker 2: was just like the best education I think you could
Speaker 2: possibly get in terms of what trauma is, how it looks,
Speaker 2: all the different ways it can manifest and yeah, so
Speaker 2: total crash course. And then I open my own practice
Speaker 2: after that, so now that's what I do.
Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, you really have seen it from just so
Speaker 1: many different steps and angles, And that's so interesting to
Speaker 1: me because trauma is one of those things that it's
Speaker 1: not a one size fits all, even though it could
Speaker 1: be a similar scenario. It's something that has so many
Speaker 1: multifaceted layers to it. And that's why I'm so intrigued
Speaker 1: and wanted to dedicate not only in like an entire
Speaker 1: episode and few episodes to it. I have a guest
Speaker 1: coming on after you in the following episode who's going
Speaker 1: to share her story actually of some of these things
Speaker 1: that you talked about that she had happened in her life.
Speaker 1: And it's wild as we see people experience these things
Speaker 1: and what it does not just in that moment, but
Speaker 1: throughout the entire course of their life. So when you
Speaker 1: go and you do this kind of work, especially frontlines,
Speaker 1: and you have these initial moments and you're working with people,
Speaker 1: what are those things that you're experiencing with people and
Speaker 1: you're seeing them experience where you're like, other people should
Speaker 1: know what this might look like in case it happens
Speaker 1: to them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting because if you would have asked
Speaker 2: me that after doing graduate work and learning, reading books
Speaker 2: or whatever, I probably would have been able to rattle
Speaker 2: off some typical symptoms or things we might see. But
Speaker 2: after doing this work for as long as I have.
Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest things that stands out
Speaker 2: to me is that it can look so many different ways.
Speaker 2: I've been in emergency rooms with people getting evidence collection
Speaker 2: kits done after sexual assaults, where we're like laughing and joking,
Speaker 2: and that's like their way of coping, like that's their
Speaker 2: trauma response. I've been with people that are their immediate
Speaker 2: response is to take care of everybody else around them,
Speaker 2: or just go into planning and doing mode where they're
Speaker 2: being really productive and really advocating heavily or getting things done.
Speaker 2: Of course, I've sat with people that are very emotional
Speaker 2: or angry or dissociated, like checked out. It's incredible, I think,
Speaker 2: just the human capacity to deal with things and those
Speaker 2: automatic responses that we develop when it comes to trauma.
Speaker 2: And I think maybe initially I would have thought that
Speaker 2: those people that were taking care of others or seemed
Speaker 2: really strong or laughing, that oh, those are like the
Speaker 2: resilient people that aren't super affected by this. But that's
Speaker 2: not necessarily the truth. I think sometimes those people that
Speaker 2: have that trauma response of taking care of other people
Speaker 2: or of putting the focus elsewhere, it's still living in them. Internally,
Speaker 2: and sometimes that is harder to process through and heal
Speaker 2: from when they're not just maybe doing what you would
Speaker 2: typically expect somebody in a traumatic situation. And so I
Speaker 2: guess that's a non answer.
Speaker 1: No, it's your question, but it's perfect actually because I
Speaker 1: love to showcase that it doesn't look like you think
Speaker 1: it would look always right.
Speaker 2: And also to add to that, I think it's important
Speaker 2: to keep in mind that when it comes to what
Speaker 2: we would consider to be trauma, it's not really about
Speaker 2: the event or events themselves or the circumstances as much
Speaker 2: as it's about how that individual person, their nervous system,
Speaker 2: their brain, and how they experience it. I often compare
Speaker 2: it to like if two people were in a car
Speaker 2: and gotten a car accident and vendor bender. Everyone's okay,
Speaker 2: they get up. One of them might be shaken up
Speaker 2: a little bit and just like we got through that
Speaker 2: and really able to go on with their life. The
Speaker 2: other person could be extremely anxious and panicky and not
Speaker 2: want to drive and really having flashbacks in a hard
Speaker 2: time or whatever it is, and they experience the exact
Speaker 2: same event, but one of them might have experienced that
Speaker 2: event as traumatic, whereas the other one maybe didn't. And
Speaker 2: so keeping that in mind too, that we can't always
Speaker 2: just look at a set of circumstances and assume how
Speaker 2: somebody could feel and can you experience that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you break that down even a little bit
Speaker 1: further for me, because why is it that some people
Speaker 1: This kind of goes more into maybe more of the
Speaker 1: science side of things, but why is it that some
Speaker 1: people can process trauma easier, quicker, or so we think,
Speaker 1: while others really internalize it becomes a whole part of
Speaker 1: their body, and it's this whole process. Is there things
Speaker 1: that you've seen and experienced that makes sense for us
Speaker 1: to describe why that happens?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's it can be a little
Speaker 2: bit complex and multifaceted, and there's so many factors at
Speaker 2: play there, and so there's like the immediate things that
Speaker 2: are going on. So for instance, in that example with
Speaker 2: the car accident, maybe one of the people in the
Speaker 2: car is having a hard time finding a job and
Speaker 2: they don't have a lot of resources, or they are
Speaker 2: going through some sort of upheaval or distress in their life,
Speaker 2: or dealing with other mental health concerns, or like there's
Speaker 2: all those immediate things that could be at play that
Speaker 2: if they're baseline going into that experience, if they're already
Speaker 2: dysregulated by a variety of other things going on, that
Speaker 2: is going to impact them on a different level. But
Speaker 2: it's also very historical. I think if they have dealt
Speaker 2: with a lot of other traumatic things throughout their life,
Speaker 2: if they've had access to processing those things and dealing
Speaker 2: with them or not, what does the support system look
Speaker 2: like going forward in the future. Are they going home
Speaker 2: to a supportive and safe home where they have people
Speaker 2: that they can talk to, do they have access to resources.
Speaker 2: There's all of these factors like past, present, future that
Speaker 2: kind of make up this unique circumstance around it. And
Speaker 2: I'm such like an analogy person and I'm also like
Speaker 2: a huge plant person. I have to buy plants all
Speaker 2: the time, especially because it's becoming spring. But if you
Speaker 2: think of your nervous system like a plant, like each
Speaker 2: plant has very unique needs based on a genetic makeup
Speaker 2: and growing conditions. You'll go to a nursery and this
Speaker 2: one needs a lot of sun, and this one actually
Speaker 2: does better with some shade, And this one needs to
Speaker 2: be watered frequently, and that one, oh barely water it
Speaker 2: at all. They all have this kind of makeup already
Speaker 2: in their system of what they need. Humans are the
Speaker 2: same way, but it's all of those things about how
Speaker 2: consistent is the care that you're giving it. Are there
Speaker 2: periods of drought our systems, we have our own individual
Speaker 2: capacities for processing experiences. So some plants can become like
Speaker 2: really hardy and maybe there's like lots of exposure to
Speaker 2: wind and harsh conditions, while others are used to growing
Speaker 2: in more like delicate or protected spaces. So some might
Speaker 2: develop deeper roots from early stress while other create broader
Speaker 2: leaves because they have abundance in their conditions and trauma
Speaker 2: that can happen when we're flooded with either more than
Speaker 2: we can absorb at once. So that would maybe look
Speaker 2: like if you had a new little plant, had you
Speaker 2: left it outside and there was a sudden downpour that
Speaker 2: overwhelms the system rather than nourishes it, Like that could
Speaker 2: be a really big I think a lot of times
Speaker 2: when we think of trauma like a really big devastating
Speaker 2: event happening, right, that's like that downpour. But it can
Speaker 2: also occur when you're exposed to harsh conditions for too long.
Speaker 2: So like maybe a plant could thrive in heat for
Speaker 2: a day, but if it's in hot heat and it's
Speaker 2: not designed for that for days or weeks, it's too
Speaker 2: much for too long, and that could really hurt it,
Speaker 2: or it could develop, trauma could develop if you're deprived
Speaker 2: of what you need to thrive, going to too long
Speaker 2: without water or light, like being neglected. It's not always
Speaker 2: something happening around you or to you, but also it
Speaker 2: can be like the absence of what you need for
Speaker 2: too long, and so like even two plants of the
Speaker 2: same species might need different amounts of care based on
Speaker 2: their unique growing history. Too. There's not just like a
Speaker 2: perfect formula around that. So it's not like about the
Speaker 2: weather itself as much as it's about each individual plants
Speaker 2: system and how it responds to that environment. It's really
Speaker 2: the same way with how our nervous systems develop. We
Speaker 2: have very unique requirements based on our genetic blueprint and
Speaker 2: also all these other environmental factors around us.
Speaker 1: I love an analogy. So the way that you just
Speaker 1: painted that so perfectly with plants and allows people to
Speaker 1: understand it just in this deeper way beautiful.
Speaker 2: The reason my analogies don't hit, But I feel like
Speaker 2: that one I think is pretty all encompassing of what
Speaker 2: trauma is like.
Speaker 1: No, it definitely is. And the reason I even asked
Speaker 1: that question is because I think it's really easy for
Speaker 1: us to get caught up in this belief that I
Speaker 1: didn't experience it that way, so why are they experiencing
Speaker 1: it that way? We like to really just put people
Speaker 1: in our own boxes instead of understanding that we are
Speaker 1: individual and we have unique experiences, and so having you
Speaker 1: share that in that way hopefully can really help people
Speaker 1: just be a little bit more understanding of those experiences
Speaker 1: and that it's not they're not going to react the
Speaker 1: same way you choose to react.
Speaker 2: It's going to be different exactly. Yeah, And when you mentioned.
Speaker 1: This too, it had me thinking of a lot of
Speaker 1: what we see on social media is people talking about
Speaker 1: little tea's and big teas. Do you feel like that's
Speaker 1: really the case or is it just it's.
Speaker 2: Just trauma or is that like little.
Speaker 1: Tea Big Tea actually helpful and truthful in our experience
Speaker 1: in our learning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a place for it. I used
Speaker 2: to teach that and train that because that was the standard.
Speaker 2: But I guess for me personally, I don't love the
Speaker 2: language of little and big because I think it can suggest,
Speaker 2: oh that one's not as serious as this other thing.
Speaker 2: I think what it's really trying to say by using
Speaker 2: little and big is more how I was describing with
Speaker 2: the plants, like a sudden downpour, like all at once,
Speaker 2: too much that is big, that would be an overwhelm
Speaker 2: in a short period of time, whereas little ty, I
Speaker 2: think is more the like could be like the neglect
Speaker 2: or the just not having enough for too long. And
Speaker 2: again there's so many. I think it goes so much
Speaker 2: deeper than that, and so I shy away personally from
Speaker 2: using that language just because I think it can create
Speaker 2: some misconception and even some shame around maybe if people
Speaker 2: are dealing with a lot of trauma responses, but on paper,
Speaker 2: the things that they've experienced are quote little that they
Speaker 2: may think that they there's something wrong with them, or
Speaker 2: they're making too much of something, or other people don't
Speaker 2: understand or invalidating their own experiences. It's just so personal
Speaker 2: an individual to how somebody experiences something, and for there
Speaker 2: to be any sort of outward perception of that is
Speaker 2: basically impossible because we as an outsider, like I can't
Speaker 2: know all of the environmental, genetic, circumstantial all of these things.
Speaker 2: There's no way for me to know that unless that
Speaker 2: person shares that with me.
Speaker 1: It totally came to my mind because I remember one time,
Speaker 1: I think I was sitting in the therapy session and
Speaker 1: I referred to something as like, oh, it's just like
Speaker 1: a little tea, And I even felt weird saying it,
Speaker 1: like I felt myself invalidating what I experienced. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was because people made me feel
Speaker 1: that way or if I just personally felt that way
Speaker 1: because I had bigger traumas, But I remember just even
Speaker 1: saying it, I'm like, you know what, No, it's not
Speaker 1: Actually that was really traumatic, and why am I downplaying
Speaker 1: that experience? So I'm glad that you shared that because
Speaker 1: it's helpful. Just talking about everything in the mental health
Speaker 1: space is helpful. We're communicating finally about something that's really important.
Speaker 1: But using harmful language can also make it really difficult
Speaker 1: on us to truly heal.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And I think there's also an important thing
Speaker 2: to keep in mind about how important like what happens
Speaker 2: next is and what I mean by that is you
Speaker 2: know there's a traumatic event itself. Let's just say abuse.
Speaker 2: If a kid experiences abuse, and then that's a traumatic event.
Speaker 2: But then they tell a parent, hey, this thing happened
Speaker 2: to me, and if the parent's reaction is like they
Speaker 2: don't believe them, or they're downplaying it, or they are
Speaker 2: blaming them, or even if the parent's reaction is devastated
Speaker 2: and very emotional, and then the parent can't function and
Speaker 2: the parent like there's all of these kind of like
Speaker 2: after effects. I think too that can create sometimes an
Speaker 2: even bigger wound and there can be even more trauma
Speaker 2: associated with that. Or maybe even being in an environment
Speaker 2: where they feel like they can't share what happened to
Speaker 2: them because they don't feel like either they have safe
Speaker 2: adults or they don't think that the adults in their
Speaker 2: life are able to handle that. Maybe they're trying to
Speaker 2: protect that adult. There's so many things there too that
Speaker 2: I think is also really important to consider when we're
Speaker 2: talking about what trauma is and how we experience it.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about that when you were mentioning
Speaker 1: in it, because so many of these very emotional topics
Speaker 1: and things that are referred to as trauma do often
Speaker 1: come around with this part of I don't believe your
Speaker 1: experience or it's not.
Speaker 2: What you think it was, or invalidating.
Speaker 1: That, and I do believe that is trauma within itself.
Speaker 1: To not have people understand or believe.
Speaker 2: You, right, Yeah, And sometimes I mean the rupture that
Speaker 2: can cause an attachment or even feeling safe enough to
Speaker 2: heal through that, or the what happens next can be huge.
Speaker 1: So yeah, when, yeah, when something happens, this piece of
Speaker 1: trauma that happens in your life and it's going to
Speaker 1: play out, maybe it's days, months, years, how do you
Speaker 1: know that you're still living within that trauma versus being
Speaker 1: healed from it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I know these are the complex I think
Speaker 2: there's so many things that we experience that I think
Speaker 2: a lot of times we don't even realize have anything
Speaker 2: to do with trauma. Because a lot of times I'll
Speaker 2: see people in therapy and maybe let's say they're dealing
Speaker 2: with anxiety. That's something that comes up for them a lot,
Speaker 2: maybe social anxiety, let's say, And maybe they've done therapy,
Speaker 2: maybe they've done self help or read the books or
Speaker 2: listen to all the podcasts or whatever, but they maybe
Speaker 2: they get to a point where they understand logically why
Speaker 2: they have social anxiety. Maybe they're able to say, okay,
Speaker 2: that makes sense because I had some really close friends
Speaker 2: and then we got in a big fight and then
Speaker 2: I felt really abandoned or whatever. Like I can point
Speaker 2: to things in my life that it makes sense that
Speaker 2: when I'm in social situations now that I would be anxious.
Speaker 2: That's great, But just having that knowledge doesn't necessarily mean
Speaker 2: that all of a sudden the anxiety is gone, right,
Speaker 2: And so I think sometimes people can feel really stuck
Speaker 2: in that of wait, I've done all this work, I
Speaker 2: can put logic behind it. It makes sense. But when
Speaker 2: I get invited to a social event, my body is
Speaker 2: tense and I'm breathing differently, and I am feeling like
Speaker 2: I don't want to be there, and I'm second guessing
Speaker 2: everything I say. They're still experiencing it, and so it's
Speaker 2: not enough to just know the why around it, because
Speaker 2: the parts of your brain that are activated when you're
Speaker 2: experiencing something traumatic is not the logical part of your brain,
Speaker 2: that prefrontal cortex that can give explanation and put sense
Speaker 2: to it when you're actually experiencing those things. It is
Speaker 2: like that deeper, more instinctual part of your brain, the
Speaker 2: like fight flight freeze, the knee jerk emotion, the knee
Speaker 2: jerk reaction, how your body braces in those moments, and
Speaker 2: really your logical part of your brain goes offline when
Speaker 2: that's happening. Just like I talk a lot about. To
Speaker 2: illustrate this, if you've ever been driving in the car
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, the car in front of
Speaker 2: you slams on their brake, and so you slam on
Speaker 2: your brake and you like put the like phantom arm
Speaker 2: out to just.
Speaker 1: Stop, what we call the mom arm, like that right, and.
Speaker 2: There's like nothing there, Like it's just an empty seat.
Speaker 2: But it's just that like instinctual reaction that we do.
Speaker 2: And that's such a small little example, but it's a
Speaker 2: really good illustration of the fact that logically there's nothing there,
Speaker 2: Like it doesn't make sense, you're not protecting the invisible enough,
Speaker 2: But it is just what your body does. It's just
Speaker 2: that initial bracing and I think a lot of trauma
Speaker 2: that we experience however that looks there is just those
Speaker 2: instinctual reactions. That's how we're wired as humans who be
Speaker 2: and so being able to actually heal from that and
Speaker 2: go beyond that stuffness of I can make sense of it,
Speaker 2: but I'm still having these reactions. A lot of that
Speaker 2: really has to do with processing from the parts of
Speaker 2: your brain that we're actually online during the trauma, and
Speaker 2: so there's all sorts of therapy techniques and modalities that
Speaker 2: get into that that kind of fall under this matic category.
Speaker 2: But it's about being in tune with your body and
Speaker 2: what's going on when you think about that, and what
Speaker 2: are you feeling, and what are the sensations. And therapies
Speaker 2: like EMDR and brain spotting and polyvagel therapy, there's a
Speaker 2: ton that kind of fall in that category, but really
Speaker 2: being able to bring your body into the therapy work
Speaker 2: is what can really facilitate healing in the sense of
Speaker 2: where those automatic reactions aren't coming up as strongly.
Speaker 1: And I did see on your profile that you do
Speaker 1: have work in EMDR, brain spotting, IFS somatic. Can you
Speaker 1: just little kind of exerts of what each of these
Speaker 1: things are because having resources and sometimes people don't even
Speaker 1: know these things exist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it can be very confusing looking
Speaker 2: for a therapist because there's all these acronyms and all
Speaker 2: these specialties, and I think people are like, oh, that
Speaker 2: person there profile says their trauma informed, but that could
Speaker 2: mean that they took a trauma class in college twenty
Speaker 2: years ago. I think it is good to have some
Speaker 2: level of understanding of maybe like what some of these
Speaker 2: things are. Emdr and brain spotting are two techniques that
Speaker 2: follow the same neuroscience, two different ways to go about it,
Speaker 2: and it basically utilizes the neurobiology of how our nervous
Speaker 2: system is connected to our brain and how we process
Speaker 2: things and bilateral movements or eye position, because our eyes,
Speaker 2: how they where they look, how they look, all of
Speaker 2: that stuff is really how our brain is processing through
Speaker 2: things and activating all those other parts of our brain
Speaker 2: the left and the right hemisphere. And so it's like
Speaker 2: these specific techniques that are designed to I guess, wake
Speaker 2: up or activate those deeper parts of your brain while
Speaker 2: you're doing the processing in a slow way, in a
Speaker 2: controlled way. That's another thing. Like we say fast as
Speaker 2: slow and slow as fast. You really can't rush through it.
Speaker 2: I always say it's hard to explain it because it
Speaker 2: sounds really weird. It'd be like me trying to explain
Speaker 2: to somebody like how to ride a bike if they've
Speaker 2: never even seen a bike. I really think there is
Speaker 2: part of it. You almost have to do it because
Speaker 2: you're activating the subcortical systems of your brain. Subcortical meaning
Speaker 2: the parts that are without word and without logic, and
Speaker 2: so to explain it in logical ways with words, it's hard.
Speaker 1: But it's also cool because you're tapping into a part
Speaker 1: of your brain that to us feels like it's not
Speaker 1: active even though it is, but because it's not transferring
Speaker 1: language in the way that we understand, this is a
Speaker 1: way to access a piece of view. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like plugging yourself into an outlet and being like the
Speaker 1: whole thing actually finally turns on and it is how
Speaker 1: I'm like seeing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically, yeah, because if you think about it, how
Speaker 2: often you're just going about your life and you know
Speaker 2: you're walking, but you're not like going, okay, lift this
Speaker 2: leg up, put this leg down, now this one. Like
Speaker 2: it's just so automatic where we're not actually in our body,
Speaker 2: we're not thinking about it. You could be off in
Speaker 2: your mind thinking about something completely random or fully going
Speaker 2: through a task physically, and so it's so natural for
Speaker 2: humans to not actually fully be in their body when
Speaker 2: they are just going about day to day life. But
Speaker 2: especially I think sometimes when we're recalling things like memories
Speaker 2: or emotional pieces of trauma, it's almost like we naturally
Speaker 2: go away from our body and just go up to
Speaker 2: our brain of like telling the story, and that feels
Speaker 2: almost protective in a way, and it's not conscious, but
Speaker 2: that is what we do. And so being able to
Speaker 2: create that like slow it down and create that safety,
Speaker 2: wake up the whole body and the whole presence while
Speaker 2: being able to process through stuff, that's what's going to
Speaker 2: create the change.
Speaker 1: Is this also when you can access something because I
Speaker 1: know and like the trauma that I've experienced, there'll be
Speaker 1: moments where before I had really worked through a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff where I really packed it down and pushed
Speaker 1: it away. Does EMDR and brain spotting help you access
Speaker 1: the stuff that you pushed out of your mind in
Speaker 1: a way?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Sometimes, Okay, sometimes not. I think sometimes people are
Speaker 2: afraid to do these types of therapies because they're fearful
Speaker 2: about what if I recall memories or what if I've
Speaker 2: blocked something out that comes up whatever. Sometimes that may happen. However,
Speaker 2: our brains are incredible that when our brains do block
Speaker 2: out memories or we don't have access to that, there's
Speaker 2: a reason for that. Our brains are always trying to
Speaker 2: protect us, and your brain is not going to recall
Speaker 2: those things if it doesn't feel safe enough to do so.
Speaker 2: So sometimes that is a slow process, and you can
Speaker 2: trust easy in the fact that if memories are coming up,
Speaker 2: it is because you are at a regulated enough place
Speaker 2: to be able to handle those things. Also, there are
Speaker 2: sometimes things like pre verbal memories or medical trauma where
Speaker 2: maybe you're under anesthesia or something where you literally aren't
Speaker 2: going to have active memory and you can't recall that,
Speaker 2: but your body was still experiencing whatever that is. And
Speaker 2: so sometimes there is truly no memory associated with trauma
Speaker 2: that we've experienced, and it's not necessarily the goal. You
Speaker 2: don't need to have the memory in order to heal
Speaker 2: from it.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's so cool that we have access to these
Speaker 1: things and to be able to do this to help ourselves.
Speaker 1: I don't want to just slide past that because the
Speaker 1: fact that we have technology and things like this in
Speaker 1: place to start to heal ourselves is such a cool
Speaker 1: place to be in in life. So that's just awesome
Speaker 1: to me. As I'm sitting here thinking about this.
Speaker 2: It's incredible. I like geek out over what I do
Speaker 2: every day and just the stuff that I like. The
Speaker 2: healing I see is just incredible. I love it.
Speaker 1: So you're doing incredible work and making some very big
Speaker 1: life changes for people on that flip side of trauma.
Speaker 1: What happens if we don't heal our trauma? What happens
Speaker 1: if we just go through our life and we just
Speaker 1: keep shoving it down, pushing it away, not ever facing it.
Speaker 1: It just stays down, never comes back out. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: does that look like in somebody? Because I do think
Speaker 1: a lot of people experience this, like with people in
Speaker 1: their lives where they're like, you haven't worked through anything,
Speaker 1: and I can feel this coming out at me. So
Speaker 1: what can that look like for someone? Because I think
Speaker 1: it helps us understand a little bit more just maybe
Speaker 1: what people are going through.
Speaker 2: Like those things. It doesn't just dissipate. I'll give you
Speaker 2: another analogy because I just can't help it how my
Speaker 2: brain works.
Speaker 1: But I love analogies, so you can can't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's if you had a room in your house
Speaker 2: that it was like your junk room and everything. I'll
Speaker 2: deal with that later. Went into that room, and then
Speaker 2: you shut the door, like you could shut the door
Speaker 2: and pretend it's not there. It's not going to just
Speaker 2: go away, and eventually, like there is going to be
Speaker 2: other consequences to that. In that sense, maybe it's like
Speaker 2: eventually you need to sell your house, and now it's
Speaker 2: this huge thing. Like sometimes there's something that happens where
Speaker 2: it's like you can't avoid it because something so big happens.
Speaker 2: I feel like I saw this a lot, like in
Speaker 2: COVID times that people were able to manage or push
Speaker 2: down whatever it was, but when this global thing was
Speaker 2: happening for some people, that was the straw that broke
Speaker 2: the camel's back. There is some unrelated thing and sometimes
Speaker 2: even like a small thing that is just going to
Speaker 2: tip that scale and then all of a sudden you
Speaker 2: start feeling really overwhelming symptoms. I do think that sometimes
Speaker 2: people can successfully shove it down for a period of time,
Speaker 2: but it's like holding a beach ball underwater, like you can.
Speaker 2: You really have to struggle to keep that in, and
Speaker 2: eventually it might be too much to hold that down
Speaker 2: whatever that looks like. And so a lot of times
Speaker 2: it does even come out in little reactions, little moods,
Speaker 2: or how we are doing in relationships with other people
Speaker 2: are tended sees to maybe shut people out or like
Speaker 2: all sorts of things. A lot of times it comes
Speaker 2: out like we cope with things through things like addictions
Speaker 2: or all these other things that might not be a
Speaker 2: huge problem, and I don't like to pathologize even that stuff.
Speaker 2: It might be an unpopular thing, but even addiction, right
Speaker 2: if somebody leaned on an addiction or a substance to
Speaker 2: numb themselves, Let's say after traumatic things happened because they
Speaker 2: just maybe didn't have the capacity or the resources, or
Speaker 2: they just straight up weren't ready to touch it, and
Speaker 2: they found something that got them through that time to
Speaker 2: where they could manage day to day hopefully to a
Speaker 2: point where you know, usually that thing that helped them
Speaker 2: manage becomes its own problem and then now they're dealing
Speaker 2: with the consequences of that. I'm like, I'm so happy
Speaker 2: that they found something to get them by when they
Speaker 2: needed to. Also there's consequences to that, and sometimes then
Speaker 2: it's a bigger problem. But we do need those things,
Speaker 2: even if they're unhealthy, even if they aren't really serving
Speaker 2: us long term. It's not always realistic to oh I
Speaker 2: experienced a trauma, like going to go start journaling every
Speaker 2: day and get into a yoga practice. That's not always possible.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think sometimes we do what we need
Speaker 2: to do to get by, but sometimes those things we
Speaker 2: do to get by become their own beast. And sometimes
Speaker 2: people go to therapy I think because they think the
Speaker 2: problem is the addiction or the relationship problems or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, and it is the problem, but like, where
Speaker 2: did that problem come from? Almost always it's going to
Speaker 2: connect somewhere to some sort of trauma that they've experienced
Speaker 2: at some point in their life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We talk a lot about root causes on this podcast,
Speaker 1: and man if that ain't the cure all for just
Speaker 1: about everything. Is like you got to get to the
Speaker 1: root of something that's happening instead of just fixing something
Speaker 1: with a band aid, right, mental, physical health, all the things.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so something that's also very much involved with trauma.
Speaker 1: I got a question about this from a few different
Speaker 1: people actually, which makes me think a lot of people
Speaker 1: are handling this in this way, but you end up
Speaker 1: in a survival mode or a fight or flight, and
Speaker 1: you just ruminate in this cycle of that for however long,
Speaker 1: and it's really.
Speaker 2: Hard to break yourself out of that.
Speaker 1: However that looks like for someone who's trying to get
Speaker 1: out of survival mode or a fight or flight or
Speaker 1: that freeze that you mentioned too, what are some first
Speaker 1: steps they can take to break that ruminating cycle that.
Speaker 2: Part of them that is, let's say we'll go with
Speaker 2: fight being reactive or touchy or it has big emotions,
Speaker 2: that part of them. It's not connected to the fact
Speaker 2: that there's not that same level of threat in the moment.
Speaker 2: It's like logically they might know this is different than
Speaker 2: the trauma I experienced, but it's an automatic reaction that's
Speaker 2: coming up because their system is just noticing things in
Speaker 2: their environment, triggers whatever it may be, just regulation and
Speaker 2: like ringing the alarm bell, and so those reactions come
Speaker 2: up automatically, and so part of it is having that understanding,
Speaker 2: so you're not adding fuel to the fire by blaming
Speaker 2: yourself or being hard on yourself for that of this
Speaker 2: is automatic. This is just it's happening. Detaching that extra
Speaker 2: layer of shame and blame that you have, but also
Speaker 2: trying to understand what purpose that might be. Certain, because
Speaker 2: if your system thinks that it's going to be in danger,
Speaker 2: your system is going to react. It just is and
Speaker 2: that's wonderful because you want your system to react if
Speaker 2: it feels like there's danger. But again, I think it
Speaker 2: really goes back to being able to not just put
Speaker 2: the logic behind it, but like connecting those parts of
Speaker 2: the brain and helping bring your body into that processing
Speaker 2: so that you can logically understand it, but you're really
Speaker 2: what needs to happen is your cells, your nervous system,
Speaker 2: your body needs to understand like this is different and
Speaker 2: I'm safe now, and there's I think there's like some
Speaker 2: self talk and stuff that can go along with that
Speaker 2: as well, but it is a process and like allowing
Speaker 2: yourself the time that it needs to get through that
Speaker 2: period of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I appreciate you answering that for some people,
Speaker 1: because I do think actually coming out of COVID, I think.
Speaker 2: That caused a lot for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: But more than that, we're just in some crazy times
Speaker 1: right now and people are going through it. You dubbed
Speaker 1: a new word in healing called trauma lessence.
Speaker 2: Am I saying that correctly. Yeah, can you break.
Speaker 1: That down for me and what it looks like, because
Speaker 1: when I watched this content, I was like, Oh, this
Speaker 1: is so cool and super important.
Speaker 2: How like when you become a parent, when you become
Speaker 2: a mother, how it can feel almost like adolescence in
Speaker 2: that you're like trying to figure out like who am I?
Speaker 2: Where do I fit? Like what is my That kind
Speaker 2: of like awkward new version of yourself, trying to figure
Speaker 2: out the bridge between who you were and who you
Speaker 2: now are. And I noticed that in trauma healing, I
Speaker 2: was seeing a lot of that too, of this kind
Speaker 2: of what felt like almost like adolescent period in the
Speaker 2: healing process of like huh, now that I see this
Speaker 2: thing differently, or now that I don't have those certain
Speaker 2: reactions coming up as big anymore, or now that I'm
Speaker 2: looking at this thing in a new light, who am
Speaker 2: I without the identity of the trauma and the stuff
Speaker 2: around me? And how it's a period of time that
Speaker 2: can feel really vulnerable and really scary, but it's also
Speaker 2: like really good and beautiful, and so I get excited
Speaker 2: and when therapy, when people are like coming to me
Speaker 2: and being like, man, like I don't know why I
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I don't know what to do
Speaker 2: with myself. Who am I? Or ugh? I always used
Speaker 2: to just you know, nod and smile in these certain situations,
Speaker 2: and now I find myself like speaking up and that's scary,
Speaker 2: and like what does that mean? Like all of these
Speaker 2: things that almost freak them out about themselves, and I'm like, yay,
Speaker 2: Like healing is happening. It's exciting, and I feel like
Speaker 2: that's just people becoming who they are actually are without
Speaker 2: all the junk that forced them to adapt in all
Speaker 2: these different ways. It's like almost like refinding themselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I loved that word, and I love that so
Speaker 1: thanks for coming up with it. And I do like
Speaker 1: to end our episodes always with whether it's a piece
Speaker 1: of advice, whether it's something that we didn't touch on
Speaker 1: that you feel is so important. I leave it open
Speaker 1: ended up to you that you like to leave us
Speaker 1: on this place. So Flora is yours. Let me know
Speaker 1: if there's anything that comes to mind for you.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, so much. I'm biased, obviously, but like I
Speaker 2: think everybody can benefit from therapy, whether they feel like
Speaker 2: they have quote little P trauma or big T trauma
Speaker 2: or anything at all, Like being a human is hard,
Speaker 2: and there's always going to be stuff. I know that
Speaker 2: there can obviously be barriers for people finding a good therapist,
Speaker 2: fit or feeling like they can and access those things.
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, the best thing you
Speaker 2: can do for yourself and all the people around you
Speaker 2: is to get to know yourself and figure out who
Speaker 2: you are without all of that other stuff getting in
Speaker 2: the way. And you know, I always say trauma can
Speaker 2: be passed down through generations, so can healing. It's never
Speaker 2: too late. It's not like, oh, that happened forever ago.
Speaker 2: It's truly never too late. I just really encourage anybody
Speaker 2: that if they have any inkling of I should do that. Eventually.
Speaker 2: Listen to that, do that. It's one of the best
Speaker 2: things you can do for yourself.
Speaker 1: Yes, there's a perfect way to end one.
Speaker 2: We did it.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much Lauren for being here, for
Speaker 1: sharing your expertise and just helping change the world for
Speaker 1: some people because it's important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm always happy to
Speaker 2: talk about this stuff.
Speaker 1: If you want to follow Lauren on socials, her instagram
Speaker 1: is your Trauma Therapist Underscore I'll put it in the
Speaker 1: description too. Next week, my friend Hailey dollar Hie joins
Speaker 1: me to share some of the trauma she's experienced and
Speaker 1: how it's impacted her throughout her life. Her story is
Speaker 1: one of a lot of resilience and so much strength,
Speaker 1: so don't miss it. You can follow the podcast Instagram,
Speaker 1: take this personally, and don't forget to hit subscribe and
Speaker 1: rate five stars because we do have some trollers hanging
Speaker 1: out in the reviews. As always, I'm really happy you're here,
Speaker 1: thanks for listening, and you guys are awesome. We'll talk
Speaker 1: next week.