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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you should know

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Speaker 1: from House Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. I'm about to brainwash Charles W.

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Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant. You can't brainwash me? Yes, I can? You

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Speaker 1: capitalist pig dog. That's not working. Oh, it will believe me.

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Speaker 1: I haven't even gotten started, buddy. I'm so confident in

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Speaker 1: my abilities that brainwats you that I can even tell

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Speaker 1: you how I'm doing it. While I'm doing it. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna come out on the other end exactly what I wanted,

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Speaker 1: which is a chicken. You do seem kind of, you know, confident.

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Speaker 1: Stare into my belly, Chuck. That's not brainwashed, it's hypnotized. Hey,

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Speaker 1: have you ever known anybody who's brainwashed? Do you ever

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Speaker 1: known a cult member? No? But why do I have

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Speaker 1: a feeling that you have. I've met cult members before.

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Speaker 1: What you have I have in your drum circles? They

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Speaker 1: were part of the Kashi Yoga cult. Really wow, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: totally nice, harmless people, but they were part of a

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Speaker 1: cult and they didn't do a Heaven's Gate deal. No,

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Speaker 1: uh no, actually they do quite the opposite. They make

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Speaker 1: like sandwiches for homeless people and stuff like that. And

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Speaker 1: they don't wear nikes. No, no, they were loosely fitting

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Speaker 1: clothing and all the Heavens Gate people when that one

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Speaker 1: of the hallmarks. And they were all um, all the

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Speaker 1: males were castrated. They were basically a sexual slick as

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Speaker 1: a can do all down there. Yeah, have fun with that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but uh chuck. You know, there's kind of a hysteria

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Speaker 1: associated with cults, like you know, if you're a member

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Speaker 1: of a colt or even tossing that word around kind of.

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Speaker 1: But in the seventies, big time, remember all that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Moonies, the Unification Church. Brainwashing was a big deal.

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Speaker 1: Jim Jones's church. I don't remember what he called it. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: did you know though, that um, what everybody considered brain washing.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's just rubbish. Well, what like torture? No, no, okay,

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Speaker 1: there's actually a distinction. I found out. Well there's two camps. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. You've got actual brainwashing, which has been

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Speaker 1: empirically demonstrated to work on a person if it's carried

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Speaker 1: out in conjunction with torture, right, there's another thing called

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Speaker 1: coercive persuasion, yes, and that's basically brainwashing without without torture,

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Speaker 1: which is why everybody, you know, is that's what they

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Speaker 1: think that you know, the Moonies did, or Jim Jones did,

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Speaker 1: or David Koresh did. Yeah, there's usually not violence involved

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Speaker 1: in cults, to be honest. No, No, there's not a

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Speaker 1: thread of violence. Perhaps, nor is their brainwashing, or at

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Speaker 1: the very least it's never been empirically demonstrated that that

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Speaker 1: actually works. I think the willingness of the participants is

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Speaker 1: often overlooked, especially by family members. So basically what I'm

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Speaker 1: saying is that the whole concept of cults is like

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Speaker 1: these these uh, these brain washing machines. It's not correct

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Speaker 1: brain washing machines or brainwashing machines, same thing. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: good stuff, thought reformed, Josh. Yeah. But all of this

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Speaker 1: can be traced back. This whole hysteria over brainwashing can

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Speaker 1: be traced back to a British journalist by the name

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Speaker 1: of Edward Hunter. This extra research look at you. Well,

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Speaker 1: he was mentioned briefly in the article. Okay, well, but

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Speaker 1: he was in a fervent anti communist He wrote a

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Speaker 1: book um called I Think Brainwashing Techniques of Red China

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Speaker 1: uh and it was published in nineteen fifty three, and

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Speaker 1: he later testified in front of the McCarthy um Committee,

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Speaker 1: the Senate can Senate Un American Activities Committee. Yah. Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's quite right, but yeah, it's close.

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Speaker 1: I think I got all the words in there. This

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Speaker 1: is not in the right order. And he basically scared

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Speaker 1: the Bejesus out of everybody, saying that the Communists have

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Speaker 1: brainwashing down to a science, will do anything. They're gonna

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Speaker 1: brainwash this hall not well know. I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: like the Communists didn't try and specifically they tried um

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Speaker 1: most actively in Korea during the Korean War. Right Korean

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Speaker 1: and Chinese captors did this too. American soldiers that were POWs,

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Speaker 1: to some varying degrees of success. I think they said

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Speaker 1: that twenty one soldiers refused to come back to the

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Speaker 1: United States when they were set free. And there's some

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Speaker 1: a little bit of discrepancy because it's twenty one out

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Speaker 1: of twenty thou prisoners. So some people say these guys

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Speaker 1: weren't brainwashed, they just you know, coming to come back. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe they you know, Doug Korean chicks or something. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe so, yeah we're Korean dudes or yeah, we're wide

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Speaker 1: open here at stuff. You should know. You know, whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to do, as long as you're not hurting

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Speaker 1: anybody else, we're cool with that. But yeah, the the

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Speaker 1: Korean and Chinese captors of these POWs did in fact

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Speaker 1: have a systematic process of brainwashing in place, and they

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Speaker 1: did it in conjunction with tortures, so it could have

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Speaker 1: actually worked. It could have. And I I think this

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Speaker 1: article is great. Just let me go ahead and say,

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Speaker 1: Julia Layton has got the goods. Bro. She does. She's

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Speaker 1: a great writer. And I love it when we do

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Speaker 1: podcasts on her articles. Yeah, because they're just chock full

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Speaker 1: of good stuff. Way to go, Layton. And so when

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Speaker 1: I read this article, I thought it all made sense

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Speaker 1: to me. When I when we're gonna break it down

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Speaker 1: here in a minute of how you brainwatch someone, and

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Speaker 1: it all added up, I was like, wow, that I

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Speaker 1: could see how that would work. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let's let's talk about it. That there was a

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Speaker 1: psychologist named Lifton, Robert J. Lifton, right, and he was

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Speaker 1: the one who started studying um returning POWs from the

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Speaker 1: Korean conflict. Um, and he basically by cobbling together their

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Speaker 1: information and their reports. Yeah. Uh, he figured out the

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Speaker 1: process of brainwashing. As you know, the Communists did it,

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Speaker 1: and actually it wasn't anything new. It's a twentieth century phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: It appears. Yeah, Chairman Mao Um actually about it as

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Speaker 1: far back as ninety nine and his little Red Book,

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Speaker 1: which wasn't published until nineteen sixty four. Yeah, what did

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Speaker 1: he call it? Are you ready for this? Yeah? Go ahead?

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Speaker 1: He called it see chang jang with with apologies to

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Speaker 1: Sauceu over in Keia who tried to teach me that pronunciation.

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Speaker 1: She took a lot of time out of her day

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Speaker 1: for that one and her candy bowl. I sat there

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Speaker 1: in eight candy the whole time. She's helping me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that means thought thought struggle, yeah, which which makes

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Speaker 1: sense because what you're doing is you're creating a conflict

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Speaker 1: in the person. That's one way to look at it.

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Speaker 1: But you're also there's a struggle between the person who's

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Speaker 1: being brainwashed, which is called the target, right, and the

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Speaker 1: person who's doing the brainwashing, which will heretofore be referred

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Speaker 1: to as the agent, kind of creepy agent and target. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So should we talk about should we just go ahead

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Speaker 1: and and go over the steps of how you do it? Well,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about what brainwashing is based on. It's actually

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Speaker 1: based on real psychology, right, Okay, called social influence, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is everywhere, it's all around, and there's three different

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Speaker 1: little zones here. Compliance, which is just do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good way to say it, Josh. And then

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Speaker 1: there's persuasion, which is do it because you feel better,

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Speaker 1: more successful, more more happy, do it because it feels good.

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Speaker 1: Do it because it feels good. And then the education method,

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Speaker 1: which is do it because it's the right thing to do, right,

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Speaker 1: which is also called the propaganda method, because if you don't,

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Speaker 1: if you don't believe what you're being taught. And we've

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Speaker 1: talked about propaganda, yeah, good stuff, it was. So basically

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Speaker 1: brainwashing is all of these things combine persuasion, compliance, and

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Speaker 1: education and taken to the nth degree. Right, But it's

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Speaker 1: it's generally carried out, like I said, in conjunction with

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Speaker 1: torture and um using techniques like sleep deprivation, isolation. Isolation

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Speaker 1: should be you can't brainwash someone if the the paper

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Speaker 1: every day, right, or if you send them out and

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Speaker 1: say all right, that's enough for now. You can just

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Speaker 1: go back home. Ye watch Jeffards go to the library

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Speaker 1: for a while. Cool your heels. Yeah, it's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 1: So you need to isolate somebody. That's the first thing.

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Speaker 1: That's the first thing that needs happened. Okay, So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Basically, there's three main phases in that

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Speaker 1: that Lifton figured out, the Communists carried out. Can I

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Speaker 1: Sam do it? It's breaking down the self step one,

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Speaker 1: introducing the possibility of salvation part two, and rebuilding the

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Speaker 1: self part three. Yeah, and I'm not going to make

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Speaker 1: any comments about my Baptist upbringing in relation to brainwatching,

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Speaker 1: I swear, because I would not want to get listener mail.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you might just from that one, but we won't

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Speaker 1: go there. Um. So check. Let's talk about breaking down

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Speaker 1: the self. What's the first step. Well, it's it's basically

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Speaker 1: just a constant attack. And we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: this in terms of just for the sake of ease

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Speaker 1: um of a military type situation, like you've got a

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Speaker 1: swetcher that you've captured. Yeah, this the one that's been

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Speaker 1: proven to actually work in you're not a military prisoner

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Speaker 1: of war torture. So basically that's when it's you know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're not defending your freedom, you're not doing anything good,

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Speaker 1: You're not a man, you're not a soldier. It's just

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Speaker 1: a constant verbal assault on the senses, breaking you down right,

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Speaker 1: and you're actually saying you're not what you think you are.

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Speaker 1: Like Chuck, if I wanted to brainwash you, I would

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Speaker 1: start with Chuck, you're not a hipster. You are not

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Speaker 1: a hipster. Chuck, I am not a hipster. G exactly.

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Speaker 1: Now we're getting started. Now. What I would also do

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Speaker 1: right now would be to isolate you. As we mentioned,

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Speaker 1: I would probably perform Filenga on you, which is what

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Speaker 1: do you think it is? I would perform Philenga on you.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like something involving beads and sticks in oils

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Speaker 1: and stuff. No, actually it does involve sticks bamboo canes.

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Speaker 1: It's actually beating the the soles of the feet with

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Speaker 1: bamboo canes. Hurts like you would not believe bet believe me. Um.

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Speaker 1: And actually, also this this isolation thing, one of my

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Speaker 1: friends told me um about. I guess he's found it

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Speaker 1: in like the Kubark Manual, which I've yet to see it. Um.

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Speaker 1: But it's called birthday party. And if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: disorient somebody or or break their their grip on reality,

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Speaker 1: one of the things you could do is, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're assaulting them. Verbally, you're attacking them, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden in the middle, everybody comes in

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Speaker 1: wearing birthday hats with a cake, and you celebrate this

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Speaker 1: guy's birthday and everybody's hanging out talking, eating cake, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of fraternizing with the with the target and um.

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Speaker 1: Then all of a sudden, everybody leaves the parties over

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Speaker 1: and then you get back to business of torturing them.

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Speaker 1: And it completely throws them off. Yeah, because they're you're

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Speaker 1: you're assaulting them. And then the next thing they know

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Speaker 1: that you're like, they're celebrating your birthday and it's not

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Speaker 1: even your birthday, so like you have no idea what's

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Speaker 1: going on any longer. What you're trying to do is

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Speaker 1: disorient the person. So once you start to become disoriented,

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Speaker 1: you are start you begin to lose your grip on reality, right,

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Speaker 1: And once that happens, you move in with the guilt,

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Speaker 1: telling him that what they're doing is actually very bad

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Speaker 1: and uh, their mission is bad and they're evil, and

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Speaker 1: you send that kind of thing like I would tell you, Chuck, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: you are not a hipster and you should feel poorly

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Speaker 1: about the state of your goateee. How long have you

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Speaker 1: worked on this? This is off the cuff, Okay. So

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Speaker 1: now I'm beginning to slip further into your the palm

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Speaker 1: of your hand, Josh, And now you are going to

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Speaker 1: move in at me with self betrayal. And that's basically

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Speaker 1: when I need to agree that I'm bad. So I'm

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Speaker 1: starting to lose it to the point where I'm starting

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Speaker 1: to say, yes, I am bad. So you you you

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Speaker 1: do feel your goatee is shoddy, right, and you would

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Speaker 1: force me to say that, and you may force me

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Speaker 1: to denounce my my friends and their goatees and my

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Speaker 1: family and their goateees. Right. Yeah. Once you start denouncing

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Speaker 1: things that that you hold dear, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you're en these on the brink of crisis, which brings

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Speaker 1: us to the breaking point, right, And that's when you're

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Speaker 1: totally at their whim. Who am I where am I?

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Speaker 1: What should I do? Right? And and you're you're just

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Speaker 1: completely lost any faith that you've ever had in your gotee.

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Speaker 1: You may be sobbing uncontrollably. You've reached what we would

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Speaker 1: call a nervous breakdown. You become unhinged, and you have

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Speaker 1: lost your grip on reality, which, as Laton put it,

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Speaker 1: your identity is up for grabs. You're you're literally a

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Speaker 1: man without an identity. You have nothing that you attach

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Speaker 1: yourself to any longer. So now that I'm broken down, dude,

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Speaker 1: that's the breakdown of the cell. You have broken me

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Speaker 1: down to the point where I don't even know which

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Speaker 1: way is up. That then you come in with a

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Speaker 1: little good cop bad cop and you offer a little

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Speaker 1: bit of leniency. I might give you some water, you're

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Speaker 1: some water, I can help you out, or you're feeling

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Speaker 1: even a breaking the torture and me saying I don't

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Speaker 1: want to hurt you or something like that. Small, small

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Speaker 1: gestures just become amplified in this situation. So now you

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Speaker 1: have offered me sip of your energy, inc And Josh,

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Speaker 1: I'm that's the most kind gesture anyone's ever paid to me.

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Speaker 1: To give me that energy drink. I'm indebted to you

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Speaker 1: for showing mercy on me. Sure. Yeah, well, you know

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Speaker 1: that's leniency, Chuck, And um, it's the first step of

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Speaker 1: the possibility of salvation phase, right, and that leads us

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Speaker 1: into compulsion. So what I'm gonna do now, Chuck, is

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Speaker 1: uh tell you that by confessing that you were wrong

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Speaker 1: and wanting to be a hipster, thinking that you were

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Speaker 1: a hipster, you were wrong in liking your goatee. Um,

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Speaker 1: you can stop feeling the psychological and physical pain, right,

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Speaker 1: you can stop feeling this guilt and the shame that

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Speaker 1: I've cultivated in you. I have a razor right over here, right, yeah, yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: so which leads us to the channeling of guilt. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: You've got this guilt and the shame that I've created,

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Speaker 1: and you, by this point, you because you've entered the

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Speaker 1: nervous breakdown phase, you have no idea what you're really

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Speaker 1: feeling guilty or shameful about and meaning behind it, but

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Speaker 1: you feel it constantly and overwhelmingly. Right. So I'm now

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Speaker 1: going to give you that that way to get rid

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Speaker 1: of your guilt, right, you attach it to something which

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Speaker 1: is your old belief system, my old belief system, which

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Speaker 1: is my goatee and my hipster presence. Now I'm actually thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know what that is? Where why I'm at where

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Speaker 1: I'm at today? It was because of that goatee and

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Speaker 1: me thinking I'm a hipster, right, and in your family's

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Speaker 1: goatees and all that stuff. Everything problem, Josh, sure, now

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Speaker 1: here is a razor and Chuck, it's time for the

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Speaker 1: releasing of guilt. You shave your goateee, well, because you

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Speaker 1: tell me it's not it's not my fault. Essentially, It's like,

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Speaker 1: it's not you, Chuck, it's it's your belief set. Hey,

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Speaker 1: who's doing the brainwashing here? Maybe I'm doing a reverse

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Speaker 1: brainwashed twist. No you're not, okay, okay, So Chuck, um,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna denounce your goatee. You're gonna denounce your hipster

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Speaker 1: past and your family. You have to actually say it.

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Speaker 1: This is how you and gain control of your life again.

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Speaker 1: I hate my goatee. It's a stupid thing on my face,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know why I grew it to begin with,

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Speaker 1: because it's not it's it's not even a quarter of

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Speaker 1: a beard. I feel like an idiot for having this gotee.

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Speaker 1: Chuck is stupid music I listened to and those dumb tattoos.

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Speaker 1: I know. It's okay, Okay, Sorry, we've reached the end

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Speaker 1: of the possibility of salvation and now, Chuck, we've actually

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Speaker 1: entered salvation. We've entered the rebuilding of the self phase. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you are broken down, you're nothing now, and now it's

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Speaker 1: time for me to build you back up into what

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Speaker 1: I want you to be, which is a preppy. Okay, okay, okay, So, Chuck, um,

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Speaker 1: I want you to say, now that you've consciously abandoned

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Speaker 1: your old belief system, that you realize that this new

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Speaker 1: belief system, being a preppy is the greatest thing on

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Speaker 1: the planet. It's what you're meant to do. Well, Josh,

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Speaker 1: it is what I was meant to do, because being

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Speaker 1: a preppy is clearly the style and fashion sense that

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Speaker 1: I've always craved. Had no idea, and Chuck, because that

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Speaker 1: this is what you're supposed to be. You really didn't

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Speaker 1: betray anybody else right in your old belief system and

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Speaker 1: by denouncing your family, because that was wrong all along. Okay,

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Speaker 1: do you promise, I do promise, Chuck. Now Here, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: I want you to take this Argyll sweater. You know,

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Speaker 1: don't put it on. Don't put it on. I want

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Speaker 1: you to drape the arms over your shoulders and I

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Speaker 1: rub my face on it. In a minute, okay, I

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Speaker 1: want you to take the cuffs of the sweater and

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Speaker 1: roll them together so that now you have this sweater

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Speaker 1: over your shoulders and it won't fall off because the

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Speaker 1: sleeves are attached. Now, are you trying to make me

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Speaker 1: a preppy? Or are you trying to send me back

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Speaker 1: in time to Chuck? I'm I'm in control here, okay.

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Speaker 1: So I've been isolated for months. You don't, You're You're

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Speaker 1: just grateful I have an Argyle sweater for you. I

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Speaker 1: am thank you for the sweater. It warms my chest,

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Speaker 1: all right? So, Chuck um, are you consciously choosing this

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Speaker 1: new belief system prepputom? I do choose prepputom. Are you

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Speaker 1: prepared to eat an alligator? I am prepared to eat

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Speaker 1: an alligator? Do you want penny loafers more more than

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Speaker 1: you've ever wanted anything in your life with pennies in them?

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Speaker 1: We'll get you pennies later, but first, do you want

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Speaker 1: these penny loafers? I want the penny loafer. Shosh, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: you are reborn. You are now a preppy. I have

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Speaker 1: broken you down from a hipster and rebuilt you into

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Speaker 1: a preppy and you're better off because of it. Wow,

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Speaker 1: where did my goot go? Yeah? You look good, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: My face is all fat. No, it looks good. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we'll work on that a little bit. Sure, but we

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Speaker 1: gotta get your tan first. Nice little bit of role playing,

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Speaker 1: your josh. So it all makes sense to me when

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Speaker 1: you look at those steps, you break someone down and

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Speaker 1: then you offer him a grain of bread, you know,

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Speaker 1: a morsel, and then you gain their trust and then

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Speaker 1: you rebuild them. And when you look at these cults

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Speaker 1: and uh not not the prison of Ward in this case,

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Speaker 1: but when you go the cults and some of these

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Speaker 1: people that may be involved, they may be to that

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Speaker 1: breakdown stage you know already. Yeah, I went to Actually

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Speaker 1: I hate this. This is like if I could cut

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Speaker 1: parts of my brain out, I would cut this memory out.

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Speaker 1: What you do? I went to a weekend long New

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Speaker 1: Way Age convention and dude, it was rough. I was

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Speaker 1: walking around just like you. People will buy into anything,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't that. It wasn't like I just scoffed

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Speaker 1: at their beliefs or or you know, the people who

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Speaker 1: are peddling these beliefs. I just thought it was said

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Speaker 1: that these people were walking around looking for anything to

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Speaker 1: attach themselves to, anything that they could define themselves with.

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Speaker 1: And we're completely abandoning any thought of creating their own identity, right,

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Speaker 1: they had to attach it to something else. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's clearly it's not just New Age people. You can

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Speaker 1: make the case that it's anybody who uses something as

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Speaker 1: a crutch, whether it's you know, church or whatever. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, this this one particularly stuck out in my head,

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Speaker 1: this new age convention. So um apparently and check this

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Speaker 1: is why I could never actually brainwash you. Uh. It

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Speaker 1: works better on some people than on others. People who

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Speaker 1: have a weak sense of identity, um, which you definitely

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Speaker 1: do not. If you have a tendency to show to

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Speaker 1: be guilty as or feel guilty, which you definitely do not.

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Speaker 1: And absolutism black and white thinking, which and self doubt

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Speaker 1: and self doubt. Yeah you've got none of those, dude.

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Speaker 1: No one could brainwash me. I know you. You get

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Speaker 1: a thick skull. Not not you, not anyone here watching

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Speaker 1: I definitely tend toward guilt and slash your face. How

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Speaker 1: how I just committed violence? Yeah you did, Chuck, So,

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Speaker 1: Josh can't they can't study brainwashing, clearly, they can't actually

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Speaker 1: perform this in a laboratory on someone because that would

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Speaker 1: be wrong. Right, But thanks to lift In, we have this,

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Speaker 1: we know how it works, and actually soldiers are still

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Speaker 1: to this day trained to yeah, how to recognize the

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Speaker 1: steps in brainwashing, which immediately takes away most of the

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Speaker 1: power of the brainwasher, and also how to detach themselves

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Speaker 1: from the situation. Yeah, I would think in meditative techniques

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Speaker 1: and things like that. Just me personally, if I was

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Speaker 1: in the Korean War, let's say back then, and I

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Speaker 1: had a Korean captor yelling at me and probably broken

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Speaker 1: English breaking me down, I would I don't. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess when there's torture involved, it's a different story.

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Speaker 1: But I would be like, dude, you're not brainwashing me

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Speaker 1: with that acts any kidding, right, you know? And I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't on the poorly conjugated verbs and things like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well that's what one of the techniques to avoid it is.

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Speaker 1: They teach you to focus on on certain details and

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Speaker 1: things like that or details of home and to not

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Speaker 1: buy into all this stuff. Yeah, and they said people who, um,

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Speaker 1: who believe in the higher power apparently are much harder

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Speaker 1: to brainwash, which strikes me that yeah interesting. Yeah, so, um,

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Speaker 1: I've got another thing for you. You're ready, I'm ready.

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Speaker 1: Meant a side? No idea? Another word for brainwashing? Oh

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Speaker 1: is it interesting? And that? What's the route there? Ment

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Speaker 1: it's minty fresh aside, it's good, I guess mental mentality.

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Speaker 1: It's the breakdown of the person's identity or belief system,

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Speaker 1: which you know is lodged happily in this little camp

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Speaker 1: ground in your brain. And so the side part, you know,

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Speaker 1: murder brainwashing. You took a lot out of me, chuck,

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Speaker 1: did it? I'm sorry. You look like you're you're whipped.

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Speaker 1: Like you look like you're whipped like Lee Boyd malvo

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Speaker 1: Let's hear it. Well, there's just a couple of famous

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Speaker 1: incidences of brainwashing. One was Patty Hurst in the seventies

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Speaker 1: when she was of the famous First Family was kidnapped

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Speaker 1: by the Sibionese Liberation Army and she claimed to be

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Speaker 1: brainwashed when she was robbing banks and that you set

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Speaker 1: in her defense and she actually was convicted. She was

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Speaker 1: in seventy six. Her sentence was commuted by Carter. She

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Speaker 1: was pardoned by Jimmy Carter in seventy nine and then

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Speaker 1: cast by John Waters in many films. Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: wasn't she. Yeah, she's in movies. I forgot about that.

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Speaker 1: Do you know who one of her greatest proponents was

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Speaker 1: that John Wayne? Oh? Yeah, And actually that's one of

398
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Speaker 1: the reasons why her sentence was commuted by by Carter

399
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Speaker 1: was because John Wayne was such a a vocal advocate

400
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Speaker 1: on her behalf and because of the Jonestown tragedy. After

401
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: that happened, people were like, oh wow, brainwashing really does exist,

402
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Speaker 1: although the courts have always been skeptical of it. Yeah,

403
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Speaker 1: my name is John Wayne. John Wayne named after John Wayne.

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Speaker 1: Did you do names? Charles W. Bryant Wayne? Uh? I

405
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Speaker 1: always figured you were named after Wayne Coyne. That's the

406
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Speaker 1: flaming lips. Yeah, No, that wouldn't have worked out. Timeline. Well,

407
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Speaker 1: let's talk about Lee Boyd Malvo. Yes, he famously, as

408
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Speaker 1: you remember, was a part of the the sniper sniper

409
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Speaker 1: shootings that happened and he was just a young kid

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Speaker 1: in uh Antigua, when he was plucked away by um

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Speaker 1: John Allen Mohammed and he was brainwashed, or at least

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Speaker 1: that's what his attorneys speculate, right, And that didn't get

413
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Speaker 1: him off either. He got life in prison without the

414
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Speaker 1: possibility of parole. Yeah, so as far as the courts

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Speaker 1: are concerned, it's a little dubious. It is, actually and um,

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Speaker 1: it was the whole that UH coercive persuasion I was

417
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 1: talking about earlier, the idea that Brainwashington work without violence

418
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 1: or the threat of violence. Um, that all kind of

419
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: went away in nine UH in a case called usb Fishman.

420
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: Let's here, there was a guy who was being convicted

421
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 1: of mail fraud and he entered UH an insanity plea

422
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: saying that he had been brainwashed by the Church of

423
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: Scientology and it didn't work. And that one was pretty

424
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: much the end of the idea of coercive persuasion. Interesting,

425
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 1: we're gonna get people asking us now to do one

426
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: on Scientology. I guarantee I'm not doing it. Heck now, Nope,

427
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: we gotta wait for anonymous to break them down a

428
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: little more before we step in Travolta and the cruise

429
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 1: will show up at our door with baseball bats, but

430
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: there's no telling what would happen to us. I don't

431
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 1: want to do that. All right, Well that's it. That's

432
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: actually probably the last time we'll ever mention scientology too. Yes, um,

433
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: let's uh, let's do listener mail and pretend we never

434
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 1: did this. Okay, Josh, I'm gonna call these listener males. Okay.

435
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: This first one is from Ben Boland's buddy, our our

436
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: friend here, Ben that works here, who is the one

437
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: that turned us onto the Esperanto deal. Apparently Tim, his

438
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: friend turned him onto Esperanto. Yeah, and Tim says, thanks

439
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: for your mentioning event Esperanto. I was happy you mentioned

440
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: learning as well. He says he's a longtime friend of

441
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: Ben and he introduced him to it, although I'm sure

442
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 1: he would have run across it eventually in his own explorations.

443
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: I love that Ben does like exploring. He does, and

444
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: he he plugged our podcast. We're gonna plug right back.

445
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: He has a website. He's actually the vice press of

446
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: Esperanto Usa, which I thought was pretty cool. So the

447
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: name of his website is Esperanto dash Usa dot org

448
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: and uh go check it out. I think it's kind

449
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: of cool. Yeah, I think it's cool too, Ben said.

450
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: I talked to Ben this morning. He said that he

451
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,719
Speaker 1: can read Esperanto but can't really speak it really, so

452
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: I was like, that's a disappointment and such a cool guy,

453
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: all right, And this next one is from Rick and

454
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: Woodstock And I don't know if this is what stock

455
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: New Yorker Georgia, let's go with New York. I got

456
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: the impression Georgia. Really, what do I know? So he's

457
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: got an innovation to tag onto our three innovations I

458
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: thought was pretty cool. DNA specific killer virus. So basically

459
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 1: he says, get our boys in the Pentagon to hook

460
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: up with the fellows from the c d C. You

461
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: engineer a virus which is highly contagious, airborne and uh

462
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: bioengineered to only target one person on Earth, so he

463
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: the unluckiest person on it. Yeah, well, he he said,

464
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden, like, if we get some of his DNA,

465
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: make a virus that would only kill him, release it

466
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: to the masses in the Middle East, It'll be contagious,

467
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: it'll get around to him eventually and kill only him.

468
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: I don't generally advocate killing, but that is a fascinating concept. Interesting.

469
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: He's like, you know, what if you could have taken

470
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: out Hitler with no bloodshed essentially, or or a Ben Lawton.

471
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 1: So I thought it was kind of interesting. He said

472
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: that it still has one or two kinks, but so

473
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: does teleportation. So touche to you, Rick, one or two

474
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: maybe a bit glib. Yeah. I also want to give

475
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: a shout out about the Innovations podcast. Dylan who emailed

476
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: us and I engaged in a very um spirited debate

477
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 1: over whether or not teleportation was a good thing. Right now,

478
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 1: it was good. It was very intelligent, really good point debate.

479
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: And I was, yeah, now, you guys, it was good.

480
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: That was a very well thought I'll answer. So, yeah,

481
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: I smacked him down pretty hard. No, that was a

482
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: good spirit, that was It was nice. Agreed. So if

483
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: you want to engage in a spirited debate with Chuck

484
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: or me, probably not gonna happen. Actually, um. You can

485
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: send us a come on to Stuff podcast at how

486
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

487
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: of other topics because it how stuff works dot com.

488
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: Want more house stuff works, check out our blogs on

489
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: the house stuff works dot com home page. Brought to

490
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready,

491
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: Are you