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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Wednesday, November twenty sixth, officially

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Speaker 2: Thanksgiving Eve, and listen. The team is busy prepping their

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Speaker 2: own Thanksgiving meals and flying to see family and all

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Speaker 2: of the things. So we're going to be repeating one

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Speaker 2: of our most favorite episodes and we hope you enjoy

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Speaker 2: happy Thanksgiving. Thank you for being with us. I'm Stephanie Leidecker,

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Speaker 2: joined of course by analyst Body Movin. Courtney Armstrong will

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Speaker 2: be joining us later in the show, but right now,

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Speaker 2: we also have Joseph Scott Morgan who's jumping in our

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Speaker 2: very favorite forensics expert, also the host of Body Bags,

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Speaker 2: and he and Body are going to really unpack the

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Speaker 2: forensics and one of those cases that we've all been

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Speaker 2: following for so long, the Delphi murders back in the

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Speaker 2: news again. A really important documentary read just came out.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys had a chance to

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Speaker 2: see it, and it really does shed light on this

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Speaker 2: recent guilt conviction in the case. So the Delphi murders

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Speaker 2: is something that body has been living and breathing so

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Speaker 2: closely for so many years. Baddie, do you want to

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Speaker 2: catch us up a little bit on just the the

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Speaker 2: broad strokes of this hideous case.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of broad strokes. So this

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Speaker 3: is going to take a little bit of setting up.

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Speaker 3: This happened in Delphi, Indiana. This was in February of

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Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, so you have to put yourself back eight

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Speaker 3: years ago. I'm on Facebook, and you know, I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling,

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Speaker 3: looking at the cute pictures of the cats and stuff.

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Speaker 3: And there's an advertisement for a Facebook group and it's

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Speaker 3: called catch the Snapchat Killer. And now you know, immediate, okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm in let's go look at this. This is right

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Speaker 3: up my alley new exactly right. It was I think

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Speaker 3: February seventhenth I think it was twenty seventeen that I

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Speaker 3: saw this group. I joined this group and there was

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Speaker 3: a photo and audio and the photo was like this

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Speaker 3: really blurry guy all right, And all we knew is

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Speaker 3: that there were two dead little girls thirteen and fourteen,

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Speaker 3: Abigail Williams and Liberty German out of Delphi, Indiana, and

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Speaker 3: this photo of this guy and we heard these words

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Speaker 3: guys down the hill or actually I think at first

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Speaker 3: it was just down the hill and that's all. We

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Speaker 3: had this really blurry photo. But I was all in, right,

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Speaker 3: this is exactly what I'm in for. So a little

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Speaker 3: bit of background. This was February twenty seventeen. It was

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Speaker 3: unseasonably warm in Delphi. And Delphi is a really small town, right,

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Speaker 3: like three thousand people. Three thousand people out there. It's

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Speaker 3: very small. Everybody knows everybody, and it's unseasonably warm. The

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Speaker 3: girls have the day off from school because they're like

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Speaker 3: catching up on a snow day, and they decide to

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Speaker 3: go to the park and take photos, you know, along

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Speaker 3: the trail, you know, get some cute pictures for their

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Speaker 3: Snapchat and Instagram stories and whatnot. So they go to

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Speaker 3: the trails and you know, they had their sister drop

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Speaker 3: them off, Liberty's libby. Her dad was going to pick

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Speaker 3: them up at three thirty. Everything was arranged. And by

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Speaker 3: the way, this was very normal. This was nothing outside

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Speaker 3: of the normal other than this random day off from school, right,

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Speaker 3: completely normal. So Kelsey, who is Libby's sister, drops them

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Speaker 3: off at the Monan High Bridge trail the trailhead at

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Speaker 3: about one thirty five pm. You know, it's a partially

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Speaker 3: wooded it's got an old elevated like wooden train bridge,

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Speaker 3: and it's kind of spooky, but it's kind of like

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Speaker 3: a place where people go and take photos and look

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Speaker 3: at fish and you know, it's a really beautiful place.

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Speaker 3: So they get dropped off about one thirty. At approximately

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Speaker 3: two oh seven, so about a half an hour later,

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Speaker 3: Libby posts a snapchat photo of Abby walking across the

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Speaker 3: bridge and an empty photo of the bridge, and so

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Speaker 3: those get posted to her snapchat around two oh seven. Well,

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Speaker 3: shortly after that's now chat post, Libby's phone captured something else,

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Speaker 3: something that you know, really knew what he was expecting,

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Speaker 3: and it was video and audio of a man approaching

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Speaker 3: the girls on this bridge. And this is where you know,

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Speaker 3: things take a really menacing turn. And again we get

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Speaker 3: this audio guys down the hill. Now we're at the time,

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Speaker 3: we don't believe that he's directing the girls down the

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Speaker 3: hill where they had met their unfortunate demise and to

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Speaker 3: that end, he.

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Speaker 2: Becomes kind of known as bridge guy. Right, This is

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Speaker 2: like kind of makes worldwide news at that point.

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Speaker 3: Very blurry.

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Speaker 2: He seems a little on the older side. I mean

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Speaker 2: again blurry, lurking. It does appear that he's like lurking

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Speaker 2: over this bridge. It kind of reminded me of like

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Speaker 2: stand by Me, the movie stand By Me, where they're

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Speaker 2: running across that bridge. You know, picture that it's beautiful,

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Speaker 2: but it's populated, it's a commonplace to go. This is

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Speaker 2: not right, completely remote.

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Speaker 3: So that's around two thirty around. Okay, so three p

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Speaker 3: fifteen comes and goes, the Libby's dad comes, can't find them.

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Speaker 3: He's making phone calls. He's calling you know them, He's

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Speaker 3: calling Abby and Libby. He's calling Kelsey, Libby's sister. He's

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Speaker 3: calling girls wears girls. While around five point thirty, the

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Speaker 3: police are finally contacted that they can't find the girls,

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Speaker 3: and a search ensues until around midnight. Around noon the

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Speaker 3: next day, February fourteenth, two volunteers found the girl's body

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Speaker 3: on a private property about a half a mile from

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Speaker 3: the bridge across the Deer Creek. And you know, the

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Speaker 3: case was very quickly deemed a double homicide. Early police

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Speaker 3: statements confirmed that evidence found at the scene, including the

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Speaker 3: audio and video on Libby's phone, suggested that the girls

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Speaker 3: had been kind of confronted and led to that location.

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Speaker 3: Investigators initially withheld a lot of details in this case,

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Speaker 3: but it did launch what would be one of the

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Speaker 3: most publicized murder investigations in smalltown US history.

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Speaker 2: An outsider looking at at that time, this is every

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Speaker 2: human's worst nightmare. Again, these are a thirteen year old,

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old. They're best best friends. They're just going

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Speaker 2: out to spend the day outdoors, you know everything everyone's

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Speaker 2: getting encouraged to do. Get off your phones, get off

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Speaker 2: your iPads, get off you know, not playing games, get outside, right,

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Speaker 2: nothing uncommon. We saw the interview with Libby's sister who

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Speaker 2: dropped them off, and she just you know, gave them

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Speaker 2: their sweatshirts, made sure they had them, and off they

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Speaker 2: went to kind of play oh school. So the idea

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Speaker 2: that they're being miss or potentially I should say, the

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Speaker 2: idea that they're being led down this hill into what

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Speaker 2: you know, we we find out to be pretty harrowing circumstances.

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Speaker 3: Remember, they're on these train tracks, right, They're on these

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Speaker 3: train tracks and they're elevated. It's very high up, you know,

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Speaker 3: and they were found down this hill and across the river,

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Speaker 3: so they were literally led down a hill. And that's

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Speaker 3: the audio that we heard for the I mean really

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Speaker 3: the only audio we had for almost seven years. We

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Speaker 3: didn't get the full Bridge Guy VideA is what we're

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Speaker 3: gonna call it. There was a video that Libby had

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Speaker 3: taken with her phone and we didn't get the full

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Speaker 3: video until the case was totally adjudicated, which it has

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Speaker 3: been now. Pretty short video. Yeah, So the girls were

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Speaker 3: found around noon on the fourteenth, and then of course

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Speaker 3: it turns into a crime scene.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well listen just the real time of it. You know,

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Speaker 2: the girls are discovered, you know, and they've met an

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Speaker 2: untimely death. It's Valentine's Day, right, imagine that we could

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Speaker 2: all probably picture where we were on that Valentine's Day now,

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Speaker 2: and you know, their scene did say a lot, it.

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Speaker 3: Did, and it was an unusual scene. So Libby she

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Speaker 3: was completely nude, and she had obvious and you could

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Speaker 3: see her wounds, that she had blood on her hands

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Speaker 3: and blood on her neck and some blood on the

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Speaker 3: bottom of her feet, and Abby was wearing Libby's clothes,

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Speaker 3: and major her wounds weren't so obvious, and mainly I

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Speaker 3: think because she was clothed and they had kind of

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Speaker 3: like been covered with some sticks, you know, long branches,

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Speaker 3: possibly to obscure the view from the river, you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of camouflage them a little bit. But what's interesting

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Speaker 3: about this is that even Abby's shoes were on. She

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Speaker 3: had her shoes, but she had Libby's jeans and sweatshirt on.

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Speaker 3: It's very unusual. And again Libby is totally naked.

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Speaker 2: And what that would imply, and again, Joseph welcome jump in,

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Speaker 2: is really that you know, not only did these young

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Speaker 2: women and again these are some graphic details, so you know,

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Speaker 2: listener beware, and we'll get through them as quickly as possible,

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Speaker 2: but you know they had been undressed and redressed and placed.

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Speaker 2: And that video that you speak of where some man

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Speaker 2: says on the hill, we all probably have heard it.

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Speaker 2: It's really haunting when you realize those are the very

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Speaker 2: very last second. So more on that later.

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Speaker 4: With just I think that it's important to understand the

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Speaker 4: scope of this because compared to a dwelling like a

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Speaker 4: structure that you work, a crime scene in you're very contained, right,

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Speaker 4: you're bordered by walls. I know that sounds very obvious,

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Speaker 4: but this is a completely different kind of animal. One

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Speaker 4: of the investigators described the taped off area as being

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Speaker 4: the size of a football field. Just let that sink

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Speaker 4: in a little bit, because this is an old adage

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Speaker 4: in forensic so that you can never expand the tape,

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Speaker 4: you can only contract the tape. So some of that

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Speaker 4: can be explained by the idea that wide net catches

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Speaker 4: more fish, and so you set up the perimeter in

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Speaker 4: a very broad manner. But to me, it's also saying

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Speaker 4: they don't really know where things are. They know that concentrically.

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Speaker 4: They've got these two beautiful young girls that have to

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Speaker 4: say that they've been brutalized is an understatement. And the

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Speaker 4: thing about it is this is one of those places

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Speaker 4: you don't wind up by accident. He did an excellent

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Speaker 4: job of describing this train trestle, because this thing is harrowing.

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Speaker 4: But here's the other piece of this. You were talking

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Speaker 4: about the height. This is not like you're going to

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Speaker 4: a national monument and you've got steps you're going to descend.

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Speaker 4: We're talking about a slick hill that is literally twenty

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Speaker 4: feet in height. If you don't know what twenty feet means,

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Speaker 4: that means two stories. And there is a subject, a

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Speaker 4: grown man that is apparently coaxing them down. And I

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Speaker 4: got to tell you all along, I've always felt as

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Speaker 4: though that the image of that blurry image of him

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Speaker 4: coming across a bridge, he has his hand in his pocket,

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Speaker 4: and there's been some talks of firearms that sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: Just think if you were these two and these are

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Speaker 4: not older teens. These are young teen girls that are

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Speaker 4: just kind of finding their way and they're just hanging

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Speaker 4: out and some old, creepy man comes along and it's

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Speaker 4: telling them to go down the hill. And this is

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Speaker 4: a word I love to use in this case, and

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Speaker 4: I've used it many times, is the word menacing. And

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Speaker 4: there's actually laws out there in certain jurisdictions about menacing.

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Speaker 4: You can menace people, And menacing gives you that idea

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Speaker 4: that it's just this overt threat and he could just

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Speaker 4: merely out of his pocket, pull the weapon and show

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Speaker 4: it to them. I'd be terrified how much more these

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Speaker 4: young women, And.

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Speaker 3: In the full video that has since been released, the

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Speaker 3: girls are very compliant, wouldn't you very own.

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Speaker 5: God.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you're right on the money. They are compliant that

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Speaker 4: in no way is I'm not imputing in a way.

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Speaker 4: I got to tell you this about Delphi. In rural areas,

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Speaker 4: which I have primarily lived most of my life, one

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Speaker 4: of the ways you measure a town in rural areas

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Speaker 4: is how closest walmart as rural as This place is

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Speaker 4: so rural that the occupants of Delphi, it's you had

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Speaker 4: to travel almost twenty six miles just to get to

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Speaker 4: the closest wall. They are walmarts everywhere. That's why I

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Speaker 4: say that's a big clue to me. That's a huge

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Speaker 4: clue as an investigator, because your field is very narrow

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Speaker 4: at this point.

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Speaker 2: And also, Joseph, to add to that, this bridge you're

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Speaker 2: talking about, that the girls are being led down a

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Speaker 2: hill from that would kind of make them trapped. Right,

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Speaker 2: So if you're a perpetrator who maybe wants to do

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Speaker 2: something scary, you know, here are these two young girls

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Speaker 2: crossing this little bridge. There's nowhere to run.

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Speaker 3: You bring up such a good point, Stephanie, because at

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Speaker 3: the one end of the bridge where you enter is

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Speaker 3: where the trailhead is, and then at the other end

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Speaker 3: of the bridge. You're literally trapped. It's a home like.

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Speaker 3: You can't just walk through there. It's private property. The

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Speaker 3: only way to go down, to get off the bridge

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Speaker 3: is to either go down or to go back across it.

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Speaker 4: I got to tell you, if you're thinking about this

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Speaker 4: from the perspective of like the military, if you were

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Speaker 4: going to set up an ambush, this is what's referred

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Speaker 4: to as a choke point, like you have no option

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Speaker 4: to go left or right. Everything narrows down. You're familiar

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Speaker 4: with the terrain, This terrain is some of the most

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Speaker 4: daunting terrain you can even begin to imagine. What's your

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Speaker 4: option here? You're going to do what he says to do?

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Speaker 4: Are you going to throw yourself off the bridge? You

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Speaker 4: know that you can try to run past him, but

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Speaker 4: if he presents a weapon or he's menacing, yeah, are

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Speaker 4: you going to do that? Even I mean as a child,

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Speaker 4: are you going to do that? I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 4: your default position is going to be to obey. And

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Speaker 4: that's what they did.

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Speaker 3: You know in the video and the photo that we

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Speaker 3: did receive over the course of the last seven or

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Speaker 3: eight years, it was long opine that he had a

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Speaker 3: gun in his pocket. Again, this video is very blurry,

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Speaker 3: you can't really see anything, but a lot of people

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Speaker 3: said that they could make an outline in the jacket

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Speaker 3: pocket of the guy, the bridge guy. So what's interesting

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Speaker 3: is that they did find that in between the two

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Speaker 3: girls where they ended up resting between the girls' bodies

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Speaker 3: near their feet, there was an unspent forty caliber bullet

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Speaker 3: and it forensically matched to a sig sour Pee two

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Speaker 3: twenty six, which is now owned by the suspect, which

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Speaker 3: is very interesting. So this I don't know how to

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Speaker 3: go to this or For six years, there was no

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Speaker 3: arrestumate in this case. Then one day, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: at the near Halloween, we get, oh my gosh, there's

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Speaker 3: been an arrest in Delphi and it's this guy nobody

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Speaker 3: has ever heard of. And his name was Richard Allen.

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Speaker 3: And he wasn't on any of this sluice that we're

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Speaker 3: sussing everybody out. It wasn't on anybody's radar. He works

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Speaker 3: at the local CBS. He's a kind of an unassuming guy,

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Speaker 3: very surprised that this has happened. And what they did

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Speaker 3: was Richard Allen self reported that he was on the

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Speaker 3: trails that day because again they had this video right like,

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Speaker 3: we're looking for this guy.

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Speaker 2: So he self reported and everybody was giving tips like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I was there, I saw this, it was the terrain,

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Speaker 2: this was the weather.

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Speaker 5: All.

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Speaker 2: That's a good citizen who actually calls into a tip line.

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Speaker 3: So he does. My wife. He told his wife, hey, I

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Speaker 3: was at the trailhead today, like and those girls have

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Speaker 3: gone missing. And she's like, you've got a call. So

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Speaker 3: he calls and he meets with a conservation officer and

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Speaker 3: you know, the conservation officer looks at his phone, takes

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Speaker 3: a statement. He says, I was there during this time.

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Speaker 3: And then six years go by and he's arrested. Six years,

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Speaker 3: six years old. I thought we're going to continue this conversation.

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Speaker 3: So the Delphi murders were unpacking the forensics with Joseph

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Speaker 3: Scott Morgan and you know, again, this is Boddy's case.

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Speaker 2: That's so close to her heart. So stay with us,

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Welcome back to true crime tonight

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Speaker 2: an iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm

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Speaker 2: here with crime analyst Body Movin and our very owned

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Speaker 2: forensics expert, Joseph Scott Morgan and host of the podcast

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Speaker 2: Body Bags and listen, please trigger alert. We're talking about

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Speaker 2: a really sensitive topic, the Delphi murders, and listen. There

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Speaker 2: was an arrest by Richard Allen. That's the part in

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Speaker 2: the case we just are at. Now, body, do you

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Speaker 2: want to pick it up there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So everybody's wondering, what do they have against Richard Allen?

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Speaker 3: What is the case against Richard Allen? And we get

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Speaker 3: like a really really short PCA from the Delphi Police Department.

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Speaker 6: What's a PCA stand for probable cost evidated And it's

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Speaker 6: basically what the police are telling the judge and you

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Speaker 6: know this in DA. Basically, this is the evidence we

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Speaker 6: have against the suspect, Can we go ahead and arrest them?

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Speaker 3: And it's just the evidence, not all the evidence. Obviously

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Speaker 3: they're not going to put everything in there. It's just

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Speaker 3: enough to get somebody arrested. Okay, It's important because again,

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Speaker 3: without it, you are not entering anybody's living space or

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Speaker 3: frankly looking for more evidence. So in this PCA, we

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Speaker 3: learned that there was a forty caliber bullet at the

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Speaker 3: scene of the crime. And we didn't know this before.

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Speaker 3: We didn't know you know, the girls were not shot.

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Speaker 3: The girls were killed with a blade of some kind.

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Speaker 3: That's all we know, and we don't even really know that,

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Speaker 3: by the way, We don't officially know that, but we

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Speaker 3: do know that. The only reason we know that is

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Speaker 3: because the funeral home told the families they would have

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Speaker 3: to wear scarves. So it's the only reason we knew

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Speaker 3: that they even had a blade. After six years, we

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Speaker 3: didn't really know the cause of death. There was a

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Speaker 3: massive gag order in this case.

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Speaker 2: Our hearts are so with the families too, on all

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Speaker 2: fronts because it's a sadistic case.

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Speaker 3: So they found this bullet. Then we learned in the

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Speaker 3: PCA they found this bullet, well, they found the card. Basically,

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Speaker 3: a volunteer with the police department was going through like

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Speaker 3: all the Delphi tips and she ran across one that

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Speaker 3: had Richard Allen's name on it and saw, oh, they

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Speaker 3: need to follow up with this guy. And so they

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Speaker 3: followed up with him, and they got a search warrant

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Speaker 3: to his house and they found that he had a

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Speaker 3: forty caliber gun and they linked the two and.

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Speaker 2: There was also a footprint, right, so didn't they have

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Speaker 2: a footprint and also the same shoe size or grid.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he admitted to being there. He said he was there.

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Speaker 3: They had a footprint bridge. I actually don't know about

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Speaker 3: this footprint, to be fair the way.

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Speaker 2: Point though, even if they did, whether they did or

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Speaker 2: didn't have this footprint, it is no big deal because

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Speaker 2: he was there by his own admission.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he said he was there. So they found a

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Speaker 3: lot of DNA too, By the way, they found a

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Speaker 3: lot of DNA and the girls, but none of it

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Speaker 3: matched anybody. They matched each other because again Libby, you know,

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Speaker 3: was nude and Abby was wearing g Libby's clothes, so

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Speaker 3: of course they're going to have DNA. You know, Abby's

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Speaker 3: going to have Libby DNA on her. And they found

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Speaker 3: unknown male DNA. None of it matches Richard Allen, So, Joseph,

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Speaker 3: if you make of that. Obviously, the terrain was very specific.

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Speaker 2: It was February, so you know, authorities have said since

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Speaker 2: then that that didn't help in terms of evidence and

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Speaker 2: DNA findings, like none of it matched the accused now

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Speaker 2: convicted killer. Is that common?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean to be able to find unknown or

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Speaker 4: you know, unmatched DNA of any kind. The thing that

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Speaker 4: makes this kind of peculiar, though, is the fact that

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Speaker 4: it's not like you're in a dwelling. You know, if

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Speaker 4: you're in a dwelling where you've got multiple people living

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Speaker 4: in a dwelling, you would expect DNA deposition from a

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Speaker 4: variety of sources. Okay, but if you're out in a

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Speaker 4: wooded area, depending upon where they're collecting it from. Now,

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Speaker 4: if it's coming off of the bodies, which I would

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Speaker 4: imagine it was probably off clothing, that can point you

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Speaker 4: in a very specific direction. I really wonder how rigorous

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Speaker 4: they were about the genetic testing. I'm a big fan

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Speaker 4: now of forensic genetic genius. I wonder if that's something

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Speaker 4: that they could revisit at this point, because back then,

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Speaker 4: even though it was a concept, it was not in

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Speaker 4: practice like it is now. I mean, we're hearing cases

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Speaker 4: every single day now. I'd like to see if there

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Speaker 4: were because there are people out there that have suggested

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Speaker 4: there may have been other people, And just for peace

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Speaker 4: of mind, if I could back up just a little

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Speaker 4: bit and say something about the unspent cartridge that was

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Speaker 4: out there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I definitely want to get into the unspent cartridge.

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Speaker 4: It's very interesting, it is, and it's a specific round.

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Speaker 4: It was Smith and Wesson forty col. Forty col is

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Speaker 4: not real common. It's common, but it's not like nine millimeter.

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Speaker 4: The line linees share people that carry concealed. Okay, I

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Speaker 4: know that there will be debates over me saying this,

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Speaker 4: but Line's share of people that carry concealed are going

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Speaker 4: to carry nine millimeters. It's one of the most prevalent. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: there you go. It's one of the most prevalent hand

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Speaker 4: handgun calibers out there. But I have kept and you

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Speaker 4: can't see this, my colleagues here can but I've kept

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Speaker 4: this on my desk all of these years, covering this case.

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Speaker 4: And this is a forty caliber Smith and Wesson.

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Speaker 2: Maybe an inch big, right, So what you're holding up

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Speaker 2: is a bullet. It's, you know, just a standard bullet,

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Speaker 2: and it's probably the size of the tip of your thumb.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's but it's actually more

394
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Speaker 4: robust than say a non milimeter okay, a bit larger.

395
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Speaker 4: The rub with this is that they used a unique

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Speaker 4: it's not unique, but it's not as satisfying for people

397
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Speaker 4: as say, a true ballistic test. When you run it's sure, yeah,

398
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Speaker 4: when you run around down a barrel, a barrel with

399
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Speaker 4: the lands and grooves in the barrel has a very

400
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Speaker 4: specific ballistic fingerprint.

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Speaker 3: Right, because again it's important to remember, this bullet was

402
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Speaker 3: not fired. This is a fun spent bullet. It's not

403
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Speaker 3: the jacket, it's the bullet itself.

404
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Speaker 4: Yes, So you've got the anatomy of this. The top

405
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Speaker 4: part is actually the projectile that's seeded in here. The

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Speaker 4: bottom part is the casing and the entirety makes the

407
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Speaker 4: bullet okay, And then down here you've got propellant and

408
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Speaker 4: then you have the primer cap down to the bottom

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Speaker 4: that has primary element and that's a bit different chemically. Anyway,

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Speaker 4: when they did the examination, when they collected Richard Allen's

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Speaker 4: forty cow, they take it to the State Crime Lab,

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Speaker 4: maybe even that f BI, I'm unclear, but the ballistic

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Speaker 4: section Indiana State Crime Lab would be perfectly suited to

414
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Speaker 4: do this. They would take the same round, not the

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Speaker 4: one that they're going to admit into evidence, but they're

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Speaker 4: going to take the same round, probably multiple times, place

417
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Speaker 4: it in to the barrel, into the tube, and they're

418
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Speaker 4: going to rack it multiple times with each individual, like

419
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Speaker 4: they may run ten through there to see if they

420
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Speaker 4: can replicate what are referred to as extractor and ejector

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Speaker 4: marks on here, and they run up the side and

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Speaker 4: on the base of the round. So when the mechanism

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Speaker 4: grabs it. This is soft metal. This is like brass,

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Speaker 4: So if you've ever had brass around your house, you

425
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Speaker 4: know that it's not like steel. So it leaves little marks,

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Speaker 4: and those marks can be tied back to a specific weapon,

427
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Speaker 4: but they are not as specific as the projectile being

428
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Speaker 4: fired and going down the barrel as it's spinning, that

429
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 4: leaves a very specific ballistic fingerprint. So this is where

430
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 4: you know a lot of people took exception to this

431
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 4: bit of evidence that it's collected seen. I think it's

432
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 4: a key piece because it goes back to what I'd

433
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 4: mentioned earlier about menacing. How many movies have we seen

434
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 4: where somebody's out on the street and all they do

435
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 4: is present a weapon, and they just demonstrated it happens

436
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 4: in real life. Yeah, it happens in real life too.

437
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 4: People are menaced with weapons. Hey, I'm backing off. How

438
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 4: much more so? You get two young girls down and

439
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 4: it's down in a hole essentially, let's face it. You

440
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 4: get them down there and all of a sudden and

441
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 4: you rack that round and you're in such a height

442
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 4: and this is on me. I'll say this right here

443
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 4: and right now, you're in such a heightened state of

444
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 4: sexual desire, in this perverted manner toward these little girls

445
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 4: that guess what you forget? You stick the weapon back

446
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 4: in your pocket, but you leave that's racked round on

447
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 4: the ground and stuff to your point, making it difficult.

448
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 4: Remember we're still in February, and there's that drop of

449
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 4: leaves that have taken place just a few months back.

450
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 4: The ground here is.

451
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: Just covered and now damp and yeah.

452
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 4: Damp and mossy, I say, mossy, kind of mulchy feeling.

453
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 4: It's got that smell that you smell out in the woods.

454
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 4: I'm not going to say it's dumb luck. I think

455
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 4: that to my way of thinking, I think they probably

456
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 4: ran over this entire area with a metal detector because

457
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,479
Speaker 4: these rounds, they're so heavy and so dense intact, they

458
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 4: will literally move, gravity will pull them. If it's laying

459
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 4: on a leaf, it'll roll down and go beneath other leaves.

460
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 4: So you have to run a metal detector to see

461
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 4: the things that can't be seen with the unaided eye.

462
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: So can I just ask one thing, just to reset.

463
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: Bodies are discovered, I mean tragically. Their clothes have obviously

464
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: been taken off and rearranged. One found completely nude. A

465
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: bullet which Joseph Scott Morgan you're describing, this bullet is

466
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 2: found between them. They're in this rough terrain at the

467
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: bottom of this hill while they were trying to cross

468
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: a bridge above head. And also, you know again it's

469
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: a day later. We know that search was very large,

470
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: per you, Joseph, the size of a football field. Now

471
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: add twenty four hours, and we know that there's this

472
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: video and audio about forty three seconds worth. It seems

473
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 2: like there should be easy to find who this guy is,

474
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: right well, and now they're making this arrest. The guy

475
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 2: is a pharmacist, he's working at the pharmacy. He's a

476
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,640
Speaker 2: family man, has kids as a wife. How could that

477
00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: be by the way he calls it.

478
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: And he never left Melphi.

479
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 2: He never leaves Nilphi, which was a little bit of

480
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: a tell. They always had said psychiatrists or a psychoanalyst

481
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: had said that perhaps they they left and kind of

482
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: rolled into the real world and just sort of acclimated

483
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 2: back into the community. That would track so Joseph back

484
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 2: to you and I'm sorry to cut you off there.

485
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 4: Back to the forensics, No, I was look at I've

486
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 4: got to confess body and I had a conversation about this,

487
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 4: and I don't know she concurs with it, but this

488
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 4: is kind of my thought. Going back to Alan working

489
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 4: at CVS, there was a story that had floated about

490
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 4: when funerals occurred, there's only one place in town where

491
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 4: you get pictures developed. I think that's CVS. You know,

492
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 4: still getting thirty five's printed and doing. You know, everybody

493
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 4: sees these when you go into the drugs.

494
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 3: You know it's a funeral. They're going to get pictures

495
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: blown up.

496
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 4: And then he funeral, he allegedly makes the offer to

497
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 4: do everything for free, and this is offered to the family.

498
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 4: I might be misspeaking here. I'm not sure. It may

499
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 4: have been Kelsey directly. And you know the other thing

500
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 4: that I talked about.

501
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: The accused Richard Allen, who's working at the CVS.

502
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's a nighttime manager essentially.

503
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: Right, so he's volunteering services to the families for the girls' funerals, photographs,

504
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: et cetera. This is like the worst wasn't there that

505
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 2: movie with Robin Williams about the guy used to make

506
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 2: the photographs. Okay, so that's what was that. It was

507
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: a scary movie, I guess, very similar.

508
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 4: Well, you know, the thing about it is with the photographs,

509
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 4: you have an insight into people's lives. If you're getting

510
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: hard copies when these things are developed, if they're developing

511
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 4: in house, you know they do. They have the machinery

512
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 4: to do that. You sit there and you can just

513
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 4: flip through it. And who's going to pay Who pays

514
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 4: attention to what the guy in the photo booth does? Anyway?

515
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 4: And this is the other thing that Body and I

516
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 4: mentioned with one another. If you're looking for intimate details

517
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,239
Speaker 4: about people, how much more intimate is it that there

518
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 4: are not too many people in my little town where

519
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 4: I live that know more about me than the Walgreens pharmacist,

520
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 4: because they know everything. They know what kind of medications

521
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 4: you're on, they know what your phone number is, they

522
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 4: know where you live. I mean, how many robocalls do

523
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 4: we get say your prescription is ready? You know, And

524
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 4: just that's the kind of information that this quiet, unassuming person,

525
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 4: you know, he kind of mels into the background, and

526
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 4: these are and the thing about is that's so disturbing

527
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 4: to me about the scene itself, is that these are

528
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 4: very dark fantasies that he's playing through. I had a

529
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 4: serial killer years ago that used to redress bodies, turn

530
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 4: underwear inside out, to put them back on the victims,

531
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 4: the idea that you can treat people like their dolls,

532
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 4: and that's it's horrible that he did this to this

533
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: precious girl, and that's what he was doing. He completely

534
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 4: dehumanized them, and it's just absolutely heartbreaking.

535
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 3: It's a hard case. And one thing I'm never going

536
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: to forget is during the trial, one of the person

537
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 3: taking the photography of the scene said that Libby, poor Libby,

538
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 3: who by the way, is nude. You know, she's fourteen

539
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 3: years old at a time when all girls are so

540
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: just self conscious. You know, there's streaks down her eye

541
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: and it's like dirt, but there's a clear path of

542
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 3: clear and he said that those were Libby's tears. It

543
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: cleared a path. And I you know, I'm never going

544
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 3: to forget that, never forget.

545
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 4: It's an indication of pain response and when you see that,

546
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 4: you know that and I've always held this that this

547
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: was a torturous death, that this was not a quick death,

548
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 4: and even the forensic pathologists that did did these autopsies

549
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 4: states that on the stand that these were not a

550
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 4: medium deaths, that they would have lingered for a period

551
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 4: of time. There was an awareness of what was happening

552
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 4: to them, staring up either at him or to that

553
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 4: sky and the trees above them, and this is the

554
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,959
Speaker 4: last thing they're going to see.

555
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 3: And we know that true be true based on the

556
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 3: blood pattern. You know, in the woods there's pools of

557
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: blood and by the way, it's all Libby's blood. There's

558
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: pools of blood, and we know that she walked through

559
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: her own blood because her blood is on the bottom

560
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: of her feet. So she gets her throat slashed, and

561
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 3: your first thing is going to be to grab it, right,

562
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 3: So that's what she does, and that's why her hands

563
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: are bloody. And then she's stumbling. She grabs a tree,

564
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 3: and that's where the f tree comes. We're going to

565
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: talk about that in a second. She grabs a tree,

566
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 3: she's stumbling and walking through her own blood where she

567
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 3: and then she finally comes to rest and she sits

568
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: down and she's pooling more. And then finally lays to rest,

569
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: So we know it took a minute. Abby. We're not

570
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: one hundred percent sure on I don't think, but Libby

571
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 3: definitely definitely suffered. It's hard to talk about it's a

572
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 3: little kid.

573
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: These are two beautiful little kids, two beautiful girls. And again,

574
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: you know what comes next is all so pretty compelling

575
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: because there have been Richard Allen's family says he's innocent,

576
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: bottom line, right, So we want to kind of unpack that.

577
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: Despite the fact that he is arrested and goes to

578
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: trial and is found guilty, some have suspected that there

579
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: was maybe a cult involved that was operating in the area.

580
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: So stick with us. This is true crime tonight. We'll

581
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: be right back with more. Welcome back to true crime

582
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time,

583
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: and we're talking about the Delphi murders and the tragedy

584
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: in Delphi, Indiana. And Joseph and Body have been following

585
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: this case so closely from day one. It's sensitive, Body continues,

586
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: sorry to have to cut you off earlier.

587
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: Now it's fine. So in October twenty twenty two, Richard

588
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: Allen was arrested and charged with the murder of Abby

589
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 3: Williams and Libby Jermy after the case had gone unsolved

590
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: four years five six years after their death, a suspect

591
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: was finally apprehended in charge for the murder of thirteen

592
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 3: and fourteen year old. Upon his arrest, the forty eight

593
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 3: year old pharmacy technician husband and father pled not guilty,

594
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: but nearly two years later, Richard Allen was sentenced to

595
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty years of prison as he was

596
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 3: found guilty of these murders. A tip that I spoke

597
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 3: about earlier that Alan had submitted himself back in twenty

598
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 3: seventeen admitting he had been on the trail that day

599
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 3: of the murders, was rediscovered in twenty twenty two by

600
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: a volunteer who was kind of like organizing case files.

601
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: And during that twenty twenty two search of Richard Allen's home,

602
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: police located that sig Sawyer P two twenty six pistol,

603
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: which forensic analysis tied to the unspent forty caliber rounds

604
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: left at the scene. Again, this is not a fired bullet,

605
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 3: but they matched that gun to that bullet austriations from

606
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: racking it, which is what they are that Richard Allen

607
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 3: had done in a menacing way to kind of threaten

608
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: the girls and to get them to be compliant. So

609
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 3: here's the thing. Richard Allen was not housed in county

610
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: jail while he waited trial. Richard Allen was sent to

611
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: the Westville Correctional Facility, which is a prison. So he's

612
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 3: technically an innocent man, but he's being held in a prison.

613
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: And why how how is that possible? And wasn't he

614
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: in solitary confinement? Yeah? It was a safekeeping order they

615
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 3: I believe they said it was due to protect him.

616
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: Because again, this is like a child killer, you guys, right, Like,

617
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: they've got to put him in like protective custody. And

618
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: they didn't have the facilities in Delphi, Indiana to take

619
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 3: care of this. So he was sent to the Westville

620
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: Correctional Facility and he was put in solitary confinement. And

621
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: while he was in solitary confinement, he started acting kind

622
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 3: of crazy. All right, I don't know how to say it.

623
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 3: He started acting kind of like he was losing his marbles.

624
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: On top of that, he started confessing to the crimes

625
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: and he would say things like I did it, I

626
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 3: killed Abby and Libby. He would confess to his psychologist,

627
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 3: who I've got a lot to say about. I've got

628
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 3: a lot of really negative things to say about her.

629
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 3: He confessed to his wife, and he confessed to his mother.

630
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 3: Now his psychologist, guys, doctor Walla is a true crime

631
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 3: fan and she's in all the Delphi discussion groups. By

632
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 3: the way, is that lean about this case? Wow?

633
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: So again the person who's the analyst who's analyzing his

634
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: mental health and ability to be at trial. By the way,

635
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 2: I have no skin in this game. I'm just surprised

636
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: that anybody can be put into solitary confinement while waiting

637
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: for trial, because it's intended to make you crazy.

638
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: It's intended to do that, right. So now you've got

639
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 3: people in myself included, who, by the way, want nothing

640
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 3: but for the person who did this to be put

641
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 3: in jail for the rest of their life. But now

642
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: you've got people questioning things because of all this crap.

643
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: You know, I'm a believer in law enforcement. I believe

644
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 3: in the system. I don't like having questions about somebody's

645
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: guilt or innocence, you know what I mean. I don't

646
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: like it at all. I like to be convinced and

647
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: the situation surrounding Richard Allen's incarceration and what they basically

648
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 3: did to him while he was incarcerated in prison makes

649
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: me kind of question if those confessions are actually valid

650
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 3: or if they are the ramblings of a crazy person.

651
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: Because he was on Haldall and he was on all

652
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 3: these they put them on all kinds of crap. Then

653
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 3: you got doctor Walla, who's you know, his psychologist, his confidant,

654
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: going into Gary Hughes, investigates Frickin' channel talking about the

655
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: Delphi case all night. I just don't like it. I

656
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: don't like it at all. It doesn't sit right with me.

657
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: And by the way, you're not alone on that. There's

658
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: been a ton of chatter on all sides of this case.

659
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: On the one hand, of course, everyone wants justice for

660
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: these two beautiful girls and their families have been through

661
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 2: excruciating pain, and on the other that's pretty uncustomary. So, yes,

662
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 2: he has the same gun apparently in his home that

663
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: very bullet was found in between the bodies. Yes, there's

664
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: a shoe print that apparently, you know, fits his size

665
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: and the type of shoe grid he had. And by

666
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 2: his own admission, because he called in to tip off

667
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: the police just to say, hey, yeah, I was in

668
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 2: the area at the time. He's kind of basically calling

669
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 2: in a tip as a good samaritan. Now years later,

670
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: fast forward, that ends up being something being held against him,

671
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: and then he confesses in various ways while in protective custody. Also,

672
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: he was in solitary confinement.

673
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 3: Right, and then don't forget over the course of the

674
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: six years that you know, this investigation was, you know,

675
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 3: happening before an arrest was made. We received four different

676
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 3: sketches and they all look different. None of them look

677
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: like Richard Allen, not a single one. They all look different.

678
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 3: One's an old man, one's a skinny young man, one's

679
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: just a young man. I mean, they are wildly different.

680
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 3: But every time I bring up, I don't know if

681
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 3: Richard Allen did this or not. Here's what I'm told.

682
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 3: Richard Allen admitted to being on the trail that day.

683
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 3: Richard Allen is Bridge guy, Bridge Guy killed the girls.

684
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: That's what I get told, Like almost like sit down

685
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 3: and shut up, body.

686
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: Interesting because they don't nobody really wants to kind of

687
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 2: revisit this. But his family is standing by his side

688
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: and claiming that there was other circumstances in and around

689
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: the area, potentially a cult that was operating nearby. We

690
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: don't have to super get into this, but there was

691
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: this allegation that there's a cult, an odinous cult, and

692
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 2: that means that maybe there was some sacrificial stuff going on.

693
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: Perhaps the branches and some of the leaves and things

694
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 2: that were discarded on their bodies when they were found,

695
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: maybe that was linked. Maybe some of these pools of

696
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 2: blood that body you described so scarily or in such

697
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 2: scary detail from Libby's body, like them on the tree,

698
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: et cetera.

699
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: They thought it was like a run. One of the

700
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 3: Todd Klick, he's a he's an investigator with the Indiana

701
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 3: State Police. He kind of thought, maybe this kind of

702
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 3: looks like the everything's kind of staged, is what he thought.

703
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 3: And they called in a professor from Purdue that like

704
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: has knowledge about these cults. And in the area of Delphi,

705
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: they have this Vinlanders cult, which is this motorcycle gang

706
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: that is an odinist. Now again, normal people practicing Norse

707
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: paganism are not bad people, but it's been hijacked by

708
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 3: these white supremacists, This this odinist cult, these Norse symbols,

709
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 3: you know, symbols and whatnot, and Todd Klick kind of

710
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 3: thought that, you know, maybe these Vinlanders might be involved. Well,

711
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 3: turns out one of the Vinlanders son is dating Abby.

712
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 3: I mean, that is a pretty harrowing detail. It's kind

713
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: of compelling till what it says. What does that mean

714
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 3: to you?

715
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: So?

716
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 7: What is that?

717
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 2: What do you make of that? Do you think there's

718
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: any validity to that, Joseph, do you think that has merit?

719
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 4: Well, this is the thing, because it's not just the

720
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 4: one percenters. I'm assuming that that's what they are that

721
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 4: are involved in this. Their supposition has been that there's

722
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 4: an entire collection of these individuals that work at this prison.

723
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 3: So well they admitted. By the way, since you bring

724
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 3: that up, Richard Allen said that he was being threatened

725
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 3: by prison guards wearing odin patches. Okay, because okay, and

726
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: everyone's like, yeah, okay, whatever, Nope, next document release, we

727
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 3: have guess what we have the warden admitting, yeah, his

728
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 3: guards are wearing odin patches. So Richard Allen is saying,

729
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: I confess because I'm under thread at the prison. I'm

730
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 3: going crazy. Now you've got these odin patched prison guards.

731
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 3: You know, signing affidavit said, yeah, they wear patches in prison.

732
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 3: It was kind yeah, that would.

733
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 4: Be allowed relative to unofficial uniform because in those uniformed

734
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 4: environments like that, they're very specific how you're supposed to

735
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 4: address and listen. The thing about prison is that everything

736
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 4: in prison, no matter how passive it is, means something.

737
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 4: And you know all you have to look at tats,

738
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 4: You look at the way sign languages done, people behave.

739
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 4: There's certain ways ways you walk, there's certain ways you talk,

740
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 4: who you talk to, what you do. That's, you know,

741
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 4: to me, that was interesting. Here's another thing. I always

742
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 4: wondered about the forensics of those branches, trying to understand

743
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 4: if they had been tool marked or not.

744
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: Joseph, they them, you know, they left them there for

745
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 3: three weeks.

746
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 2: What does that mean exactly if they left them there, well,

747
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: they didn't.

748
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 4: Collect them and bring them in. And these are like,

749
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: these branches are overlaying the bodies in a way. I

750
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 4: think you guys use stuff. I think you mentioned camouflage

751
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 4: a little while ago, so it couldn't be seen from above. Okay,

752
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 4: I'll give you marks for that, but I've seen these illustrations.

753
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 4: There's one kind of famously infamously that's out there where

754
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 4: it's a diagram that has been drawn and these branches

755
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 4: are laying over and people are saying, it's almost like

756
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 4: watching somebody do a magic trick with cards. Here, look

757
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 4: at this, you know, they're saying, you can see this letter,

758
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 4: you can see this formation, and yeah, in the way

759
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 4: the branches are laid there. Yeah, and so why is

760
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 4: there not more evidence of a bunch of people? So

761
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 4: if this is a okay, let's just go with it.

762
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 4: Let's say it's a sacrifice. Let's just say that, why

763
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 4: is no more ground disturbed around this area where you've

764
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 4: got people marching in to witness this? And and why are

765
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 4: they going to do it in broad daylight when you

766
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 4: know that there's uh, it just seems it seems as though.

767
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 4: And listen the post mortem interval piece to this, the

768
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 4: status of their bodies when they were examined, it kind

769
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 4: of marries up with the time that approximates when they disappeared.

770
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 4: So that's that's a big, big piece to this. One

771
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 4: other thing too, that not much hay has been made

772
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 4: over is the distance between walking distance and direct walking

773
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 4: distance between Richard Allen's house and the location you can

774
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 4: literally walk across. I think it's like two pastures. Nobody's

775
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 4: going to see you. You can approach off of Logan's

776
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 4: property and descend down into this area and never be seen.

777
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 4: You just kind of poof. There's no need to park

778
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 4: a car, there's no and so you can actually walk

779
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 4: back and forth. So for me, that's always kind of

780
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,439
Speaker 4: stacked up in my mind relative to pointing back to him.

781
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 4: And the thing about it is, he never left. As

782
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 4: you guys mentioned, he has intimate knowledge of this area

783
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 4: and the fact that you've got an individual, in my

784
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 4: opinion at least, that's acting out a devious sexual play

785
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 4: in his mind with these young girls that he can

786
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 4: influence and do these things with. You know, all signs

787
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 4: point to him. From my perspective, I think that to

788
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 4: be more satisfied, I'd like to have more connectivity from

789
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 4: a DNA perspective, footprint evidence, all those sorts of things.

790
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 4: But you know, it's a done deal now. Now, will

791
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 4: they uncover some sinister group that's actually behind the scene.

792
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 4: I don't know, Maybe they will. I hope they continue

793
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 4: to investigate.

794
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,479
Speaker 3: I do too, And you know, with appeals coming, maybe

795
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 3: they'll have some new evidence to share with us. I

796
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 3: hope they do. One thing about this trial that was

797
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 3: really hard, you guys, is that everything there was a

798
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 3: massive gag order in this like one of the strongest.

799
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 3: I've even the family right in your gag in this case,

800
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 3: which is really unusual. And so when it went to trial,

801
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: the only way you could really know what was going

802
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 3: on is it that you were inside the courtroom, because

803
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:48,399
Speaker 3: no media was like, there's no there's no photography, there

804
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 3: was nothing allowed, no audio, nothing. So after each day

805
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 3: everybody would sit around and listen to people who were

806
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 3: inside the courtroom that day, and depending on who you

807
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 3: listen to, is what you heard. So if you're listening

808
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 3: to a pro defense side of the aisle, you're going

809
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: to get all the bad things the state did, and

810
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 3: if you're listening to a pro state here about what

811
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 3: a bad and evil person Richard Allen is. It was

812
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 3: very very interesting because like mass media, like normal media

813
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 3: like that live in whatnot in Indiana were provided really

814
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 3: even the family. Yeah, I mean, it's it's been very difficult,

815
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: and so maybe because of that, I've just I'm left

816
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 3: very unsatisfied with this case, like, I just have it

817
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 3: in my head that there's something that's going to convince me.

818
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 3: And listen, it's not important to convince me. I just

819
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 3: want to be convinced. I'm just nosy and I need

820
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:42,280
Speaker 3: to know what happened.

821
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 4: I think this case, I got to tell you, I

822
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 4: think it's precedent setting in a sense that this is

823
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 4: a perfect example. While we do need cameras in the

824
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 4: courtroom and all of this conspiratorial stuff, all that stuff

825
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 4: just kind of vanishes in the air. And look, you

826
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 4: don't have to show the pictures. We've seen this played

827
00:44:58,480 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 4: out over and over again. You don't have to show

828
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 4: gory pictures. You can block that out, doesn't have to

829
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 4: be seen. But just to catch what's going on in

830
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 4: there and to understand the tenor of the conversation is

831
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 4: very important here and so much.

832
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 5: So in this case.

833
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is a shiny example of what happens

834
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 3: in the dark, right, because all this stuff has happened

835
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: in the dark, and we have to rely on other

836
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 3: people's stories to tell the American public, and I just

837
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 3: don't like it.

838
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: And by the way, it does speak a lot also

839
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: to again, Liby and Abigail, their families, our hearts are

840
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 2: with them, but also how smart she was to be

841
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 2: able to take her phone and to snapchat something live

842
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 2: at two o seven pm. That audio video whatever forty

843
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: three seconds that she was able to record was one

844
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: of the most critical pieces of information. Right, So I

845
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 2: would have to imagine this case is going to continue,

846
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: and to your point, Body, there's likely appeal after appeal

847
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: after appeal to come. Right now, he's looking at one

848
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty years sixty five per victim claims his

849
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 2: innocence and his wife stands by him.

850
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's insistent that he's innocent, and you know

851
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 3: she's standing by him. And whether you know right or wrong,

852
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 3: you have to admire that she's not given up on

853
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 3: her husband. And she absolutely does not listen. Either she

854
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 3: does not believe it or she is in bad denial.

855
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 2: Joseph any predictions, I know we have to wrap it up, but.

856
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 4: No, it's yeah, it's going to go up on appeal,

857
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 4: and I think I'm kind of reinvigorated by the proposition

858
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 4: that new stuff could be introduced, because in order to

859
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 4: form an appeal you have to bring forth new substance information. Yeah,

860
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 4: what that information will be will see what else have

861
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 4: they uncovered. Do they have a team that has the

862
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 4: ability to uncover stuff, because I can tell you there's

863
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 4: a lot of attorneys out there that would love to

864
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 4: make their bones on a case like this. So we'll

865
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 4: see what happens during the course of the appeal.

866
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 2: Wow, big show listen. Thank you for sticking with us.

867
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 2: Wishing you a fantastic rest of your holiday weekend. Please

868
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: remain safe out there. This is True Crime Tonight. We've

869
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 2: been talking true crime all the time and we will

870
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 2: be back soon.

871
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 7: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're retalk true

872
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 7: crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with

873
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 7: Crime Analyst. Body move in. Do not forget. If you've

874
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 7: missed any part of the show, you can always catch

875
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 7: the podcast. Joining us now is the award winning host

876
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 7: of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos. He is a

877
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 7: trusted voice in the radio world. He is a reserve

878
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 7: officer with Miami's police Department and on his podcast, he

879
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 7: teams up with Cold Case Homicide Unit. He does that

880
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 7: to re examine unsolved murders and give families a renewed voice.

881
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 5: Enrique, welcome, Thank you so much Courtney. Congratulations on the

882
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 5: success of this podcast as well.

883
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 3: Well, thank you. We're welcome hopefully we're so big as

884
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 3: you one day exactly. And it's trusted, let's add you know,

885
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 3: and it's trusted. You're very trusted. I went and read

886
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: all about you and you are like incredibly trusted in

887
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: your community and you you take that very seriously, and

888
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: I just I really wanted to commend you on that

889
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 3: real quick.

890
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 5: Thank you. It's a blessing to be able to represent

891
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 5: my community and Latinos that live simultaneously and two two

892
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 5: worlds at the same time, English and Spanish and living

893
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 5: you know, bi cultural and doing wearing so many different

894
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 5: hats at iHeart and broadcasting and in law enforcement. It's

895
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 5: a I ticket with a great deal of responsibility.

896
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 7: Well and you wheeled it well, Erique. So off of that,

897
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 7: So you have worked in law enforcement, can you explain

898
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 7: a little bit, because I got to hear your background

899
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 7: on your fantastic podcast, talk to us about working in

900
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 7: law enforcement and also how that shaped the way you

901
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 7: approach these cold cases in your podcast.

902
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 5: Sure, so let's start with cold case files Miami. Right,

903
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 5: it's more than just a I would say more than

904
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 5: a just a true crime podcast. It's a it's a

905
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 5: personal mission for me. As a reserve police officer in

906
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 5: the city of Miami, I've seen firsthand the pain that

907
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 5: lingers when when justice is delayed or never comes for

908
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 5: some people unfortunately. You know, I've talked to frustrated detectives

909
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 5: who carry these cases with them for decades, and families

910
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 5: who are still searching for answers. Many of these, you know, parents,

911
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 5: especially the mothers. Got to applaud them. It's like, Wow,

912
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 5: I've learned so much doing this podcast. They've turned their

913
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 5: grief into into purpose, and some of them have created foundations,

914
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 5: community efforts to support other victims and families, and they

915
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 5: keep their loved ones memories alive. And that's probably That's

916
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 5: a lot about what the spirit of this podcast came

917
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 5: about and why I decided to do it. That's exactly

918
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 5: why we created Cold Case Files Miami in partnership with

919
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 5: a School of Humans, and of course iheartsmicha will do

920
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 5: to podcast network. So we go beyond the head lines.

921
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 5: We re examine evidence with forensic experts. We dive into

922
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 5: how breakthroughs and fingerprinting in DNA and are changing the

923
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 5: game and evolving and how it's evolved since its inception

924
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 5: years so many years ago, right, and giving a voice

925
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 5: to those whose stories have been left left behind. So

926
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 5: they're not just statistics. These are these are these stories

927
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 5: are about people, sons, daughters whose lives were stolen tragically, senselessly.

928
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 5: Many of these cases, some people out there still may

929
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 5: know something that can help solve them. Right. So it's

930
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 5: like I feel a sense of responsibility beyond the badge,

931
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 5: beyond my work as a reserve officer. I'm a former

932
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 5: full time police officer, left the police work to do broadcasting.

933
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 5: I live in these two awesome worlds, so I get

934
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 5: how can I really do something for these victims in

935
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 5: these families and.

936
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 3: Especially a really unique position, right like you are living

937
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 3: in both worlds. I've never met anybody that's done that before,

938
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 3: and I think it's I'm going off script here. I

939
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: think that's really cool. I think that is really, really,

940
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 3: really cool because you're able to get big national attention

941
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,439
Speaker 3: on cases while also speaking the language of law enforcement. Right,

942
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 3: that is a really unique position, and you wield it well.

943
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: I think this is your crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm

944
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 3: Body Moven and right now, we're joined by the award

945
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: winning host of Cold Case Files Miami, Enrique Santos, and

946
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 3: we want to hear from you. Give us a call

947
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 3: at eighty eight thirty one Crime and leave us a

948
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 3: voicemail or hit us up on the talkbacks using the

949
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app.

950
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 5: No, you just described very well the spirit of why

951
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 5: I do it and why I try to use my

952
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 5: platforms in a positive way. Right So, speaking to my

953
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 5: experience as a police officer that has definitely been critical

954
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 5: about who I am. I was a police explorer as

955
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 5: a young man, then became a police dispatcher, then into

956
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 5: the police academy, then into police work, and then I

957
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 5: bumped into broadcasting kind of by accident. So I do

958
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 5: two things that I'm absolutely absolutely passionate about and that

959
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 5: I love doing, and again that it's critical, and I

960
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 5: use my platform again to do something positive. So, you know,

961
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 5: going back to law enforcement, Yeah, I've been through the

962
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 5: crappy parts of it. I've stood over dead bodies. I've

963
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 5: interviewed devastated witnesses and been part of that the pursuit

964
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 5: to bring killers to justice. I've also had to you know,

965
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 5: knock on doors and deliver the horrible news, the worst

966
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 5: possible news to families that their loved ones aren't aren't

967
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 5: coming home. I've done that, I've been that. I've had

968
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 5: to do that since I was a young police officer

969
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 5: at the age of nineteen, fresh out of the police academy.

970
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 5: That kind of trauma, I would say, it doesn't fade,

971
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 5: you know, it gives me a very very real understanding

972
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 5: of the pain that these families and investigators carry. So

973
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 5: when I revisit cases like our episode one, which was

974
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 5: sixteen year old Brian Herrera who was killed in broad daylight,

975
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 5: he was shot and killed in the streets of Miami

976
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 5: years ago for his cell phone, or joy Sapp who

977
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 5: was a beloved woman who was murdered in Liberty City

978
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 5: here in Miami, and.

979
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 7: Talk about episode one just really quick, absolutely because that

980
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 7: it staggered me, just the senselessness, like you said, it was,

981
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 7: you know, over a cell phone that he pointed out

982
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 7: it wasn't even connected to you couldn't even make a

983
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 7: phone call. It was so he could play games. And

984
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 7: he was an a student and go riding his bike

985
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 7: to his friend's house to do his homework over Christmas.

986
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 5: So sad devastating, But.

987
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 7: I also I think everything you were speaking about before,

988
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 7: your experience in dealing with families who have lost the

989
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 7: most important people in their lives, it gives you the

990
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 7: pathos to, you know, tell the stories in a really

991
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 7: compassionate way and really highlight because his mother what a

992
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 7: force of nature and handing out the photos. Can you

993
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:54,479
Speaker 7: talk about the the importance that victims' family members can

994
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 7: play as cases go on.

995
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 5: One hundred percent. Specifically with episode one, Brian Herrara, the

996
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 5: sixteen year old that was shot and killed for his

997
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 5: cell phone. It was horrible because like it was Christmas time, right,

998
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 5: and he had a younger, younger sister that still lives today,

999
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 5: but she was too young then to understand what was

1000
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 5: going on with her with their brother who had just

1001
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 5: been murdered. Christmas was approaching, so Santa is still coming.

1002
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 5: Hearing Brian's mom tell that story, how devastated, how heartbreaking

1003
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 5: that was that they were dealing with the murder of

1004
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 5: their son at the very same time having to deal

1005
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 5: with Christmas and trying to keep Brian's younger sister, their

1006
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 5: young youngest daughter, shielded from all this negative negativity and

1007
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 5: new life and the connection is very real, not just

1008
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 5: for the family, but also you know, have a colleague

1009
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 5: of mine, a former Miami police officer that heard the

1010
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 5: episode and he called me right away when episode one

1011
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 5: dropped about Brian her Era, and he remembered everything he

1012
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 5: told me. And I was on the scene. I remember

1013
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 5: seeing Brian shot. I helped coordinate with the fire rescue

1014
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 5: to get him transport and all that kind of stuff.

1015
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 5: That gave me the chills. It was a reminder that

1016
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 5: these cases still live in the memories of the people

1017
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 5: who were there, the law horseman officers, the first responders,

1018
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 5: more especially the families. Right when it comes to the

1019
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 5: parents who've lost children to violence, that I would say,

1020
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 5: they want they want closure right and they deserve it.

1021
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 5: I think we can all agree there. You know, imagine

1022
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 5: losing your child in this descript and this herndous story

1023
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,479
Speaker 5: that we just laid out. In episode five, I talked

1024
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 5: to a very strong woman named Tangala Sears, and she

1025
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 5: was never getting clear answers after her son was murdered,

1026
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 5: so she turned her pain into purpose. She founded an

1027
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 5: organization here in Florida called Parents of Murdered Children. There's

1028
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 5: another woman named Lawrence Webb in episode two. Well, Lawrence

1029
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 5: was murdered when she was thirty two. This was in

1030
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 5: twenty thirteen. Her case lingered in limbo despite a known suspect,

1031
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 5: So they knew who the guy was, but they didn't

1032
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 5: have enough evidence to charge them. So imagine living with

1033
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 5: that trauma too. It's like, we got it. They're pressuring

1034
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 5: the police departments, they're pressuring the state attorneys off. These

1035
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 5: families are forced to live in a suspended state of grief. Yeah,

1036
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:06,959
Speaker 5: they want to know why, they want to know who,

1037
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 5: and they want to know, you know, to know that

1038
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,959
Speaker 5: the system didn't forget about them, that the system didn't

1039
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 5: forget about their loved one.

1040
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 7: Was she the mother and that was also quite another

1041
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 7: absolute powerhouse of a human with her resolve to just

1042
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 7: keep calling and making sure that people did not forget

1043
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 7: and calling and calling. I think another thing that your

1044
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 7: series does really well, that Cold Case Files Miami does

1045
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 7: really well is also while telling the personal stories, you

1046
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 7: also give listeners some knowledge of sort of legalities. I

1047
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 7: think it was episode two where an officer is speaking about, well,

1048
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 7: we have enough suspicion that we can arrest someone, but

1049
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 7: then you have to go to the prosecutors and they

1050
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 7: have a different stand and that's just the reality, and

1051
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 7: you know sometimes it's I don't know, there's a lot

1052
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 7: of obstacles to get to final justice.

1053
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 5: One hundred percent. Yeah, Episode two with Laurent's a Web,

1054
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 5: the thirty two year old that was shot in twenty thirteen,

1055
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 5: So a suspect had emerged right within days, but formal

1056
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 5: charges didn't follow for like five years afterwards. So we

1057
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 5: explore in this episode, you know, why justice was delayed

1058
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 5: and if the case can still hold up in court.

1059
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 5: And that's another big problem with with these with these cases,

1060
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 5: you know, they go for a long time unsolved. These

1061
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 5: cases collect dust on the detectives sometimes retire, they move

1062
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 5: on to other units. The witnesses aren't so clear about

1063
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 5: what they saw. They they don't remember their memory, you know, fades.

1064
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 5: So those are all that factors in absolutely how much has.

1065
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 3: The advancements in forensics helped bring new hope to old

1066
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 3: cases that you've experienced.

1067
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 5: This has got to be one of my favorite episodes,

1068
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 5: which is episode three, because I talk with Miami Dade

1069
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,000
Speaker 5: County State Attorney Catherine Fernandez Rundel, So I'll give you

1070
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 5: a little background on Kathy and why I'm so proud

1071
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 5: of her and what is and what she's done in

1072
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 5: Miami Dade County. So, Kathy's been the state attorney for

1073
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 5: Miami Dade County for thirty years. She's the first Cuban

1074
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 5: American and Hispanic woman to ever hold that role in

1075
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 5: the state of Florida. So really, yeah, she's led one

1076
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 5: of the she's led one of the largest prosecutor offices

1077
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 5: in the country, it's Miami Dade County for over thirty years,

1078
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 5: and has been a pioneer in criminal justice reform. Truly,

1079
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 5: she's a powerhouse. She's created specialized courts for domestic violence,

1080
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 5: for mental health, which we know finally is getting the

1081
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,880
Speaker 5: attention that it deserves now these days for our vets.

1082
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 5: She's very respected and it was great to sit down

1083
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 5: and talk with her. She told me something and I'll

1084
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 5: never forget, you know. She said, the truth always rises,

1085
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 5: and she meant that literally, because there's a case that

1086
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 5: she made reference to as a mister Bates, a man

1087
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 5: who had gone missing after a hurricane hit here in

1088
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 5: South Florida. The floodwaters unearthed this briefcase and inside was

1089
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 5: mister Bates's body. So that's wild, right, So the discovery

1090
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 5: led to the reopening of his case and the conviction

1091
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 5: of a former business partner for his murder. So cases

1092
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 5: like that are now solvable because how far forensic science

1093
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 5: has come. One major turning point, of course, was in

1094
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 5: two thousand and one, the year the Human Younome Project

1095
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 5: released its first full draft of the Human DNA Map. Right,

1096
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 5: that changed everything. It gave scientists and law enforcement the

1097
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 5: tool to analyze partial DNA samples with a precision that

1098
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,960
Speaker 5: simply didn't exist before. So since two thousand and one,

1099
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 5: i'd say two thousand and one was the year DNA

1100
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 5: moved from the lab to the streets. It turned cold

1101
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 5: cases into solvable cases, victims into identity, and suspicion into

1102
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 5: scientifically backed proof. And Kathy really dives into how all

1103
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 5: this has changed. She explains, how, you know, the advancements

1104
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 5: and fingerprint technology and DNA databases like cotis, you know,

1105
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 5: the combined DNA index system that we're seeing justice catch

1106
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 5: up with with time. I'd say COTIS alone has assisted

1107
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 5: over half a million, you know, investigations, many involving decades

1108
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 5: old evidence. And it's a reminder that science can give

1109
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 5: families something they haven't had in a long time, which

1110
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 5: is hope.

1111
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 3: Right. I love that you have such a wide range

1112
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 3: of cases that you talk about, and you look into

1113
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 3: some that are totally cold and been cold for decades

1114
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 3: and some that have gone to trial or like that

1115
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 3: are completely closed, but that there's doubts about. Right, Like

1116
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 3: the episode led by detectives Zachary Scott, what can you

1117
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 3: tell us about that?

1118
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 5: Well, with Zachary Scott is very interesting because this was

1119
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 5: a gentleman that lived in Brazil, and this guy was

1120
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,919
Speaker 5: a wife abuser. There's evidence of it to the point

1121
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 5: where he shot his wife. There's thoughts that his wife,

1122
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 5: the wife's family member put a hit out on him.

1123
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 5: He disappeared for a while. But the tie with Brazil.

1124
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 5: In South Florida was really fascinating. Right. There was two

1125
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 5: women murdered here in two different jurisdictions in South Florida,

1126
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 5: one in Broward County and that's where detective Zachary Scott works,

1127
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 5: and another one in the City of Miami where I'm

1128
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 5: a reserve City of Miami police officer. But there were

1129
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 5: similarities in the case. They had found the bodies, they

1130
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 5: had DNA, but they couldn't match it to anybody. Make

1131
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 5: a short story long. This was fascinating this whole episode

1132
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 5: because this detective was able to connect the dots between

1133
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 5: his officers in Broward County, the police officers in the

1134
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 5: city of Miami, and law enforcement in Brazil get the

1135
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 5: Brazilian authorities to cooperate for the first time in history.

1136
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:56,320
Speaker 5: They thought this man had faked his death when they

1137
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 5: thought that this was the man, but they needed his

1138
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 5: DNA to confirm that the match on the two women

1139
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,760
Speaker 5: in Florida. They actually got the DNA from his daughter

1140
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 5: who cooperated with the Brazilian authorities. So it was fascinating.

1141
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 5: And he goes into this whole investigation that spanned countries

1142
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 5: in decades before finally unveiling and being able to really

1143
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 5: pin these two murders on this women. It's fascinating to

1144
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 5: get this detective to open up and tell me. When

1145
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 5: I asked him, do you think there were more women

1146
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 5: that were murdered? I said, He says absolutely. He was

1147
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 5: addicted to street workers. It was confirmed that these women

1148
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 5: in Florida were sex workers. The argument that he got

1149
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 5: into his wife where he shot her in Brazil, was

1150
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 5: over his involvement with prostitutes.

1151
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 3: Coming up more with the award winning hosts of Cold

1152
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 3: Case Files Miami Enrique Santos, keep it right here True

1153
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight.

1154
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 7: This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

1155
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 7: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong here with

1156
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 7: crime analyst Body Moven. We are back with award winning

1157
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 7: host of Cold Case Files, Miami, Enrique Santo's.

1158
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 3: Welcome back in Riek. Thank you so much for being

1159
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 3: here and for all the incredible work you're doing with

1160
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 3: Cold Case Files Miami. I mean it's hard enough to

1161
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 3: work with agencies in other counties, yes, let alone another country.

1162
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 3: I mean, that's pretty that's pretty great. At him that

1163
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 3: he was able to pull that off.

1164
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 5: It gets more fascinating because he was able to use

1165
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 5: case law to prove to Brazil a case that had

1166
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 5: happened just prior or a couple of years prior, where

1167
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 5: they actually, for the first time ever, the court system

1168
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 5: in Cuba convicted somebody for a crime that happened in

1169
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 5: the United States. So that's set precedent. There was case law.

1170
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 5: They used that as example, and they used that to

1171
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 5: convince the Brazilian authorities to cooperate. It truly fascinating.

1172
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, it really was a very very cool listen and

1173
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 7: it almost felt like like you're eavesdropping on the two

1174
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 7: of you sort of talking it out.

1175
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 5: It was.

1176
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 7: It was a different it was a different vibe slightly

1177
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 7: than the other episodes in which I've really enjoyed sort

1178
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 7: of Buddy and I were talking about earlier, just the

1179
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 7: you're on a ride with all of these episodes.

1180
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 5: Thank you, Courtney.

1181
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 7: What is kind of a two part question, how do

1182
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 7: you choose your cases? And also what's one case that's

1183
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 7: really sort of really stuck with you?

1184
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 5: So in the selection of these cases has been really

1185
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 5: organic kind of how they come about. I have family members,

1186
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 5: lifetime friends, ex coworkers, still partners on the police department

1187
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 5: who are tied to a lot of these cases. A

1188
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 5: lot of that, there's a lot of them. There's information

1189
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 5: where they might have leads, so and we don't want

1190
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 5: to ruin anything. They don't want to ruin a case

1191
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 5: or the chances of where they're you know, they're right

1192
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 5: on the tail of somebody, and so we don't want

1193
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 5: to talk about it because it's almost right at the

1194
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 5: you know, the borderline of getting of getting solved. So

1195
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 5: that really dictated of how much information of unsolved cases

1196
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 5: we were to put out. And then I said to

1197
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 5: the team, and collectively we said, why don't we talk

1198
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 5: about the success story too, not just I mean this,

1199
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 5: this podcast series would be successful if we're able to

1200
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,800
Speaker 5: bring closure to some of these families. Number One, humanize

1201
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 5: these these people and and they you know, remind people

1202
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 5: that what the toll is of all this violence, and

1203
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 5: it's fascinating, heartbreaking by the same time inspiring to hear

1204
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 5: these family members destroyed, their lives totally shattered, how they've

1205
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 5: put themselves together, and how many of them are now

1206
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 5: helping other families move forward through the organizations, through through

1207
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 5: other support groups, even just telling their story to me

1208
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 5: and participating in this podcast.

1209
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 3: This is true crime Tonight on iHeart, I'm Body Moven

1210
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 3: and we are joined tonight by the award winning host

1211
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 3: of Cold Case Files, Miami, Enrique Santos, and we want

1212
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 3: to hear from you. Hit us up on the talkbacks

1213
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app. You know, it's one thing, that's

1214
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 3: one thing I really struggle with, is I get to

1215
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 3: attach to people and their story. How do you balance

1216
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 3: this emotional weight of all these stories that you're covering

1217
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 3: while still doing your job as a journalist and storyteller.

1218
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 3: How do you how do you manage that? Because I'm

1219
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 3: personally struggling.

1220
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 5: Well, I let me tell you there's no manual, right,

1221
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 5: uh for this. And you've got experiences because you've done

1222
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 5: You've done great work. And congrats on your series on

1223
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 5: on on Netflix for doing what's right. Look, how much

1224
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 5: you stirred up a lot, but you did.

1225
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 3: It for the right reasons, right if you have a

1226
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 3: good heart, I think you know, and good intentions. Right,

1227
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 3: But don't you feel like do you do you struggle

1228
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 3: with the emotional toll because you are taking on a

1229
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 3: big like when somebody is full of hope. Yeah, and

1230
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 3: you're you know, taking that on. That's a that's a

1231
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 3: big burden for yourself.

1232
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 5: Sure. As cops, you know you're training the police academy

1233
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:16,400
Speaker 5: to stay detached. I would say arms distance when you're

1234
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 5: when you're when you're involved in these cases, don't you know.

1235
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 5: But when you're telling the story of someone like Brian Hurre,

1236
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 5: you can't help but feel it. It's real. I mean,

1237
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 5: you're listening to their mothers. The historian of the sister

1238
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 5: and how they had to continue on going the life,

1239
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 5: their life goes on, and so they have to celebrate

1240
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:36,959
Speaker 5: Christmas the same week that they're burying their son. There

1241
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 5: there there's you know, there these there are these cases

1242
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 5: that there you feel the true weight of it and

1243
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 5: the real human loss. And I've learned to compartmentalize. I'd

1244
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 5: say the best I can, but but I won't pretend

1245
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 5: it doesn't take a toll. It absolutely takes a toll.

1246
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 5: And that in the one episode where we dive into

1247
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 5: there's one where we dive into the emotional cost for

1248
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 5: first responders, episode five with tangelaus Sears, and we tell

1249
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,640
Speaker 5: this and the truth is, listen, law enforcement has some

1250
01:08:02,680 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 5: of the highest suicide and alcoholism rates of any profession.

1251
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 5: More officers, as a matter of fact, die die by

1252
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 5: suicide than in the line of duty. You would think

1253
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 5: it's different right now with so much police officers right now,

1254
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 5: but yeah, more officers die in the United States by

1255
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:21,680
Speaker 5: suicide than in the line of duty. And that the

1256
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 5: numbers prove that. And that's why I supported organizations like

1257
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 5: Bleeding Blue. These are two Miami Dade County sheriffs and deputies.

1258
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 5: They're brothers, friends of mine, and they formed this nonprofit.

1259
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:38,760
Speaker 5: They're doing this amazing work organizing peer support groups, counseling resources,

1260
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:42,040
Speaker 5: and conferences to help first responders. When I graduated the

1261
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,439
Speaker 5: police Academy when I was nineteen, there was a block

1262
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,680
Speaker 5: on a mental health The psyche is there if you

1263
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 5: need to talk to them after a shooting or after

1264
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,600
Speaker 5: a critical incident. But the truth of it is that

1265
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 5: not too many people follow up on that. It was

1266
01:08:57,400 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 5: at that time kind of looked down upon, not just

1267
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 5: for for police, but also for fire and rescue first responders.

1268
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 3: You know, it seems like weaker or something like that.

1269
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 3: They think like, oh, something's wrong with him or her,

1270
01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:14,879
Speaker 3: like they need psych like they're weak, they're not strong

1271
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 3: as Unfortunately, I mean its to them. Oh that's horrible.

1272
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 3: I think that's a society thing though too. I think

1273
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 3: society was doing all that unfortunately.

1274
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, And then think also if you're if you're a

1275
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 5: police officer and you're just seen a traumatic event, it's

1276
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 5: not the nine typical nine to five job right right where.

1277
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 5: You know, Hey, honey, how how was work today?

1278
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 7: Oh?

1279
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 5: So and so got a new promotion and I got

1280
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:37,640
Speaker 5: a new office, and everything went fine, No, I just

1281
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 5: a police officer comes home, you know, they take their

1282
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 5: bulletproof vest off and hang up their duty belt, and

1283
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:44,960
Speaker 5: they're trying to not remember that person that they did

1284
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 5: CPR on, that that passed away, the kid that they

1285
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 5: pulled out of a pool that they didn't make it.

1286
01:09:50,040 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 5: You know, someone that was stabbed to death, or a

1287
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:56,000
Speaker 5: gunshot victim, or somebody you know in real bad shape

1288
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 5: in a car accident. These are all real emotions. So

1289
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 5: we need more these conversations and like the ones we're

1290
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 5: having right now, to explain that these are these are

1291
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 5: real traumas and that the first responders have a very

1292
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 5: very they carry a lot.

1293
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:14,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, they did well, and just like victims are real

1294
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 3: people and we need to humanize them, so are the cops, right,

1295
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:20,120
Speaker 3: the cops that are experiencing this. I just watched a

1296
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:23,480
Speaker 3: body cam footage of I think it was out of Baltimore,

1297
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:26,639
Speaker 3: and it was a couple of cops pulled this woman

1298
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,519
Speaker 3: over and in her trunk in a suitcase for two children.

1299
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 3: And when they discovered this, these cops broke down. I

1300
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 3: mean it was and they were they were very upset,

1301
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 3: and it really humanized I don't know why I didn't

1302
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 3: think about cops as being, you know, having these kinds

1303
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 3: of problems, but they were horrified and so sad. They

1304
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,240
Speaker 3: were babies, you know, And so I mean, it is

1305
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 3: important to remember that police officers and law enforcement and

1306
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 3: first responders are human and they have to witness the

1307
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:01,719
Speaker 3: most horrific thing on the worst stay possible for someone.

1308
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 3: And we need to be a little bit nicer to cops,

1309
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 3: even though I.

1310
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 5: Don't want to be to the nice ones we do,

1311
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 5: but I will say and be totally transparent and honest

1312
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 5: that you know, there's people that shouldn't be wearing their right.

1313
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 3: That's in every profession, right, like in every profession, people

1314
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 3: probably shouldn't be doing those jobs. But in the case

1315
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 3: of like cops, though, they wield a lot of power.

1316
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:26,759
Speaker 3: So there's a bad power dynamic with those bad people.

1317
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 3: But hopefully those are a foreign few between.

1318
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 5: They are majoritia officer men and women in the United States.

1319
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 5: Are they do it for the right reasons. I agree,

1320
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 5: and and they're true professionals.

1321
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 7: And I think just off of what you said, body

1322
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 7: of being, you know, surprised to see them break down.

1323
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 7: I think it is also because so many of us,

1324
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:49,120
Speaker 7: myself included.

1325
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 3: You know, we grew up and.

1326
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 7: It's almost like policemen when women firemen and women are

1327
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 7: superheroes and you just hold them in that and then

1328
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 7: you think, you know, you don't actually think of, oh,

1329
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:05,320
Speaker 7: these are human beings and they need to actually deal

1330
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:08,519
Speaker 7: with these emotions as well. So, Enrique, I believe you've

1331
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 7: called Cold Case Files Miami a mission.

1332
01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1333
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 7: Is there an impact that you hope this podcast has?

1334
01:12:17,240 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 5: For sure? Again, listen, if we can solve just one

1335
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 5: cold case or get one step closer to justice, I

1336
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:26,799
Speaker 5: feel like it was all worth it. But beyond solving crimes,

1337
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 5: I hope that this podcast helps. Like we just spoke

1338
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:33,959
Speaker 5: about humanizing the victims, humanizing the players that are involved,

1339
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 5: that the public understands that police officers want these things

1340
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 5: these cases solve just as much as the victims do.

1341
01:12:41,120 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 5: And it's very frustrating for them too when they hit

1342
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 5: you know, legal crossroads, when they hit a brick wall,

1343
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 5: when they don't get people to cooperate for whatever the

1344
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:54,639
Speaker 5: reasons are. And there are many reasons why people won't

1345
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,719
Speaker 5: come forward and don't want to cooperate. People like Joyce

1346
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 5: sap An episode four, a community leader like Laurence Webb

1347
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 5: again in episode two, who just just begun rebuilding his life,

1348
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 5: Or like the three women murdered in the early two

1349
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:11,160
Speaker 5: thousands whose stories Detective Zachary Scott that we spoke about

1350
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:15,519
Speaker 5: and that he helped us revisit in episode six, they

1351
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:22,240
Speaker 5: were more than victims. These were daughters, neighbors, professional students,

1352
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 5: people just like you and I, right, like us, right,

1353
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 5: and their stories deserve to be heard, remembered, and these

1354
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 5: victims deserve to be to be honored. So I feel

1355
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:32,719
Speaker 5: that we're honoring them in telling their stories.

1356
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, as as a listener, I couldn't agree more. Absolutely.

1357
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:42,720
Speaker 7: You know, it feels important what you're talking about in

1358
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 7: the stories you're telling, And I'm proud.

1359
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 5: I don't know if this happens to you to you

1360
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 5: do too. When you listen to your podcast, you don't listen, Okay,

1361
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 5: you sound like me and my radio show. I try

1362
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:54,679
Speaker 5: not to listen. I don't like listening to my voice,

1363
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 5: and I get really picky, and then why would Yeah,

1364
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 5: so I overthink things. But and I listened to this

1365
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:04,439
Speaker 5: final product I've actually the first one, of course I heard,

1366
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 5: was was episode one with Brian her Are. But I

1367
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:10,640
Speaker 5: was so proud of our team at iHeart and of

1368
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 5: School of Humans because they really transported. They did it

1369
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:19,480
Speaker 5: such an excellent job, mixing in the stories and investigating

1370
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 5: and helping me find the victims, family members and the

1371
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:28,680
Speaker 5: detectives involved. They did a phenomenal job. I'm proud of

1372
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 5: the work that we've done.

1373
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 3: You should be. I mean, you are very well rounded.

1374
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 3: Even just one is monumental and a closure for this family.

1375
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 3: Like you said, I think I've used this term before too,

1376
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,559
Speaker 3: they're living in suspended animation, like their life is completely

1377
01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 3: on hold. Right. I had a cousin that went missing

1378
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 3: for twenty one years, and you know, my aunt was

1379
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 3: one hundred percent suspended animation her whole life, well not

1380
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 3: her whole life, but a big portion of her life.

1381
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:57,880
Speaker 5: How'd you deal with that?

1382
01:14:58,600 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 3: She drank?

1383
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:00,960
Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean.

1384
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 3: It's you know, she's gone now, bless her, but you

1385
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 3: know it's it's horrific. So just just one family, and

1386
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,960
Speaker 3: that in the the butterfly effect that has you know,

1387
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:15,799
Speaker 3: outward to you know, extended family and even co workers

1388
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 3: and friends and neighbors. You're changing so many lives by

1389
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 3: just solving one of those cases. So hats off to you.

1390
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:25,799
Speaker 3: I mean that I really thank.

1391
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 5: You, thank you, thank you know what. To me, I

1392
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 5: say hats off to the investigators, to the family who

1393
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:32,599
Speaker 5: keeps knocking on doors, and to all the people that

1394
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 5: that opened up and that shared their their stories of

1395
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 5: their their loved ones with us. Wow.

1396
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 7: And what can listeners do if they recognize something? If

1397
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 7: they have information about a featured case in your podcast's actionable.

1398
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 5: Well, if something you you hear in the podcast, uh,

1399
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 5: you know sparks, sparks some memory, or you know someone

1400
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:57,280
Speaker 5: who might have seen something or say something, say something

1401
01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,639
Speaker 5: I would say, you know, speak up, contact your local

1402
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 5: police department, or if you prefer to stay anonymous, you

1403
01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 5: can reach out to crime Stoppers. There's the national hotline

1404
01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 5: one eight sixty six four seven one tips where you

1405
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 5: can visit crime Stoppers three oh five dot com. No

1406
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 5: details too small. Something you think that is totally insignificant,

1407
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 5: not important, could be that one missing piece that brings

1408
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:21,400
Speaker 5: in And it might be just.

1409
01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 3: Such a small detail that ties that loop right. I

1410
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 3: always tell people the details, the devils in the details.

1411
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 3: The details matter. The tiniest, most insignificant thing can make

1412
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 3: that makes sense that that tip you got ten years ago.

1413
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:38,679
Speaker 5: Makes sense and that one little tip could bring peace

1414
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 5: to a family right that's been waiting far too long.

1415
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 3: Right. Wow, well, thank you so much.

1416
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:49,719
Speaker 7: Thank you absolutely anything else, Enrique. We've held you hostage

1417
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:53,360
Speaker 7: and we just toss your time. But is there anything else?

1418
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 7: Listeners should know where to find you, where to listen

1419
01:16:56,600 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 7: to you. Anything.

1420
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:02,280
Speaker 5: Absolutely, Thanks again, congratulate relations on True crime tonight. I'm

1421
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 5: a fan. I host a nationally syndicated Spanish show out

1422
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 5: of Miami across the country. We broadcast from two ninety

1423
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,400
Speaker 5: four point nine FM in Miami. I also host On

1424
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:16,120
Speaker 5: the Move with Drique Santos that runs nationally on iHeartRadio

1425
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 5: from coast to coast on Saturday evenings, I'm probably hosting

1426
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 5: Miami Cold Case Files. I've got a little bit of backlash,

1427
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:27,520
Speaker 5: like you're give in Miami a bad light with this podcasts.

1428
01:17:28,080 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 5: Miami isn't just beaches in night life. We're a lot

1429
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 5: of fun Miami and the three h five is home

1430
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 5: to me. I love it. It's a Miami is a city

1431
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:38,799
Speaker 5: of secrets, cultures colliding, and the story is buried beneath

1432
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:42,080
Speaker 5: the heat. Cold Case Files Miami, we were digging deep

1433
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 5: into the side of Miami. You don't see your coworker

1434
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,479
Speaker 5: post it on Instagram or on TikTok and bikini on

1435
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:51,439
Speaker 5: the on the beach sipping Pinacola. But these are true

1436
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:55,080
Speaker 5: stories involving true people, and hopefully we're able to bring

1437
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 5: some closure, to much needed closure to these families that

1438
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:00,840
Speaker 5: there's family. Their lives have been turned upside down by

1439
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 5: no choice of theirs, by these violent, horrific events.

1440
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 3: I'm so honored to meet you, like for real, I'm

1441
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 3: not even honored. Thank you so much for being here

1442
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:13,559
Speaker 3: and for all the incredible work you're doing with Cold

1443
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 3: Case Files Miami. You can listen to the podcast wherever

1444
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:18,680
Speaker 3: you get your shows, and if you have info on

1445
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 3: a case, don't hesitate to speak up, keep it here

1446
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 3: on True Crime Tonight.

1447
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 7: Be safe and be well and have a good one.

1448
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:27,800
Speaker 3: Thank you, good night, good night,