1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week, progress regress, 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: and a grand vision for the future. Human development over 3 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: the past hundred years can be easily measured in rapidly 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: increasing wealth, health, and better opportunities for a growing population. 5 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: That progress, granted, has not been evenly distributed, and yet 6 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: it is a story shared by billions around the world, 7 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: including my own family in India. One of the things 8 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: that concerns me most about climate change is that it 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: may erode those markers of development, undoing decades of hard work, 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: and by some measures, it's already happening. The Human Development 11 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: Index has followed a steady upward trend since it was 12 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: introduced in the nineteen nineties. Now it has been done 13 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: to fall. But really what excites me about the coming 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: decades is that many of the solutions to our climate problem, 15 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: clean energy, a more just inclusive financial system, inevitable international collaboration, 16 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: all have the potential to radically transform people's lives. Build 17 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: this future, and humanity will continue to thrive. This view 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: is one of the driving forces behind the work of 19 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: my guest today, Achim Steiner. He's the head of the 20 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: United Nations Development Program, which works in one hundred and 21 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: seventy countries to promote sustainable development, democracy, peace and resilience. 22 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: We are a development institution that believes in the future, 23 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: the notion of living in the age of the anthroposcene. 24 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: It is very much about understanding that we are failing 25 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: to respond as a human family to the magnitude of 26 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: the challenges of our time. But behind that is a 27 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: second story. We live in an age of extraordinary possibility. 28 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: The UNDP is one of the oldest institutions in the 29 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: United Nations and uses it's roughly four billion dollars annual 30 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: budget to work with twenty two thousand people around the globe, 31 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: combating issues as wide ranging as access to HIV and AIDS, medication, poverty, eradication, 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: and digital inclusion. I sat down with Akim at the 33 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: World Economic Forum in Davos earlier this year to talk 34 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: about the opportunities and threats climate change poses to global development, 35 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: how countries can plan for more climate refugees, and what 36 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: a rising inequality means for a world facing multiple crises. Akim, 37 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Pleasure to be here, Thank you now. 38 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: Climate change threatens to reverse progress on many of the 39 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: development indicators like poverty, prosperity, education. Is climate change the 40 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: biggest threat to human development over the next century? You know, 41 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: it has already emerged as one of the biggest threats, 42 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: and I would say there's not even over the next century. 43 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: I think it is probably over the next few decades. 44 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: One of the things that I think we're all beginning 45 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: to realize right now is that we have arrived in 46 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: the age of climate change, not just as a scientific proposition, 47 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: not as some would still perhaps want to portray the 48 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: science fiction. You know, just a few days ago we 49 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: hosted in Geneva a meeting to bring the world together 50 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: to support Pakistan and trying to recover from these catastrophic 51 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: floods last year, where one third of the country was inundated. 52 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: Climate change is beginning to impact literally hundreds of millions 53 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: of people. So yes, I think it is genuinely the 54 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: greatest threat to the future of development. But and here 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: in lines also in a sense, the other half of 56 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: the coin, it is also the greatest opportunity to transform 57 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: development in the twenty first century from being essentially an extractive, polluting, 58 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: and often depreciating pathway to how we have grown our 59 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: economy as our GDP at great expense to people, health 60 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: impacts from pollution, loss, biodiversity, ecosystems, and now climate change, 61 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: which is literally taking us to a tipping point in 62 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: terms of many of the fundamental life support systems on 63 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: the planet. So a very dark scenario if we don't act, 64 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,679 Speaker 1: and actually a potentially transformative scenario if we do act. Indeed, 65 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: the inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change, which puts out 66 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: these massive, thousands of pages reports every six to seven years, 67 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: those reports aren't read widely, but if you do get 68 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: a chance to read one of those reports, what you 69 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: see is it paints a picture first off, devastation that's coming, 70 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: that has come, what we need to do to address it. 71 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: And then it goes into this direction which has become 72 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: a new direction for it, which is, if you do 73 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: implement those solutions, the world becomes a better place, not 74 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: just better in terms of where we are headed now 75 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: if we could use the technologies we do have now, 76 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: but just better in all the metrics that humans would 77 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: consider as progress metrics. Indeed, and I think this has 78 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: been in a sense the extraordinary story of the late 79 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: twenties century the early twenty first century, that here is 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: humanity with seven eight billion people seeing red lines flashing 81 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: on all major radar screens. In terms of the future, 82 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: where it is on pollution, where it is on the 83 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,839 Speaker 1: prospit of far greater frequency of natural disasters, extreme weather events, 84 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: many of the things that actually threaten hundreds of years 85 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: of progressive development, in terms of our infrastructure, in terms 86 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: of our ability to survive in for example, small island 87 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: developing states that may simply disappear with C level rise. 88 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: And you are right in some ways these are very 89 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: scientific and complex documents. They also are a reflection of 90 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: a journey of discovery that humanity has gone through. And 91 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: thankfully because the UN was able to establish an inter 92 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: governmental panel on climate change independent of national interests of 93 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: industry lobbing. It is really a documentation of the state 94 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: of knowledge about climate change. Now none of us have 95 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: to read it, because we also go to a doctor 96 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: and you allow them to operate on us without having 97 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: studied the manual for a surgery. And I think this 98 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: is the same. The scientists of the world are giving 99 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: us both an understanding of the threat of inaction, what 100 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: climate change means if it simply continues, and what we 101 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: have seen increasingly is across the world, a twenty first 102 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: century economy being invented, reinvented, the green economy, the clean economy, 103 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: the decarbonization pathway. And I think from where I sit 104 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: today as head of our United Nations Development program, my 105 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: focus is exclusively on how to actually think about the 106 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: future of development as an opportunity decarbonization today, the prospect 107 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: of having renewable energy, infrastructure and electricity supplies available in 108 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: ways that perhaps would have been unimaginable ten years ago 109 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: addresses so many of the risks to our society's energy security, pollution, 110 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: their affordability. For example, of connecting hundreds of millions or 111 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: citizens on the African continent while still developing national grid infrastructure, 112 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: mini grade off greate, solar renewable these are all shortcuts 113 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: to access to electricity. And you know, one thing that 114 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: we have learned in the last few hundred years is 115 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: that energy and particular electricity, our fundamental drivers of development. 116 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: So even for addressing poverty, eradication, addressing the inequality that 117 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: exists across the planet today, these kinds of technologies are 118 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: in fact the accelerators for development, including addressing energy poverty. 119 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: Right now, we shall come to how the UNDP is 120 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: addressing some of those concerns that feed both the development 121 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: agenda and the climate agenda. But let's just take a 122 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: step back in history. We talked about the inter Governmental 123 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: Panel on Climate Change. It's only about thirty years old. 124 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: The unf tripl C, which is the unbody behind the 125 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: climate activities that are held every year, the copy events 126 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: that are held, is also only a little bit more 127 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: than thirty years old. The UNDB was created at nineteen 128 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: sixty five, much before we thought of climate as a threat. 129 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: So just walk us through the brief history of why 130 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: the UNDB was created and what briefly you think it 131 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: has achieved over the past fifty years. Well, first of all, 132 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: I think one always has to look at an organization 133 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: such as the United Nations Development Prize being embedded in 134 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: the United Nations system. The United Nations since its establishment, 135 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: has had multiple mandates. Keeping the peace or avoiding conflict 136 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: certainly is at the center of it, but so is 137 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: the humanitarian work that we do, you know, when disaster strikes, 138 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: when conflicts occur. But increasingly throughout the fifties and sixties, 139 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: the development mandate began to become much more central because 140 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: as developing countries were becoming independent nations as also, the 141 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: acceleration of industrialization led to essentially a divergent pathway where wealthy, 142 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: industrialized nations were growing very fast, and yet developing countries 143 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: were lacking the technologies, the skills, the institutional capacities, and 144 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: also the capital to invest in the accelerated development that 145 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: we will seeing across the planet. There was an increasing 146 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: realization that a few nations developing fast and billions of 147 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,479 Speaker 1: people being left behind is not a very viable proposition. 148 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: So UNDP initially was set up as a funding mechanism 149 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: to bring more resources to accelerating development support to countries. Now, 150 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: obviously development is not something that is static. We sometimes 151 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: look at development as if it's a matter of helping 152 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: a country to get to a certain level of capital 153 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: or GDP per capital, and that puts countries into least 154 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: developed countries, middle income countries, other middle income countries, let's say, 155 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: in a sense, anachronism, because really development is the continuous 156 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: pursuit of choices and options that societies have to make 157 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: about their future. Initially, early on, it was about access 158 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: to education, healthcare, basic infrastructure, electricity. Then decided addressing also 159 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: new threats such as the advent of AIDS, non communicable diseases. 160 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: Today they live in an age where, for example, digitalization 161 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: is fundamentally changing the trajectory of development. How do we 162 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: achieve digital inclusion? How do we also address phenomena that 163 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: have to do, for example, with discrimination. Today we have 164 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: the twenty thirty Agenda, the Sustainable Development Goals, a smarter, 165 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: a also more contemporary view. The development is not solved 166 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: by silver bullets, not by solving one problem alone. We 167 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: are talking about economic transitions, ecological transitions, addressing issues of 168 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: social justice and inequality that you are really beginning to 169 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: tear societies apart. Inequality, the obvious inaction on climate change 170 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,599 Speaker 1: and environmental destruction, getting more and more people to the 171 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: point where they lose faith in the institutions of government, 172 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: maybe in the economy, in businesses. And that's the point 173 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: at which we today work with governments addressing this complex, 174 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: this sense of uncertainty about the future now that can 175 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: suddenly start to film very overwhelming. So one way in 176 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: which when I was thinking about speaking to you was 177 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: just the story of my life. I come from India, 178 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: I grew up there. My grandfather completed high school and 179 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: then got onto a factory floor and was able to 180 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: raise three sons who each went on to eventually start 181 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: a business. And that's why they could make some wealth 182 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: and allow the next generation children like me to be 183 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: able to study abroad and get to sit here in 184 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: Davos and talk to the world's elite. But it was 185 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: a process of prosperity that was backed by fundamentally development 186 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: happening in India. My grandfather lived through a period where 187 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: India would have had the chance of having severe famine 188 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: in the seventies and that didn't happen, partly because of 189 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: development programs like the Green Revolution that brought higher productivity 190 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: to Indian farms. There were other development programs that involved 191 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: money being transferred to India for progress on things like 192 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: rollout of more efficient lighting which saves energy, allowed for 193 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: more people to get access to light at night, which 194 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: improves productivity, which improves outcomes, for women's safety, for education 195 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: among children. These are things that I have seen in 196 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: my lifetime play out. But if we get to the specific, 197 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: can you point to programs that UNDP did in specific 198 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: places that you hold as proud achievements. I think in 199 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: many countries and as I travel today as the head 200 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: of UNDP, the feedback that I receive most often is 201 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: that UNDP has been a partner and companion to developing 202 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: countries for decades. We are not an institution that in 203 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: a sense comes in, lends you some money, or maybe 204 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: implements one project. We are an expression first of all 205 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: of the United Nations commitment to developing countries to be 206 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: a partner to them for the long run, but also 207 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: through sometimes tough times. Increasingly we have also been an 208 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: institution that is associated with good governance. Good governance means transparency, 209 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: it means having no corruption, but it also means how 210 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: citizens can participate, how people don't decide for others what 211 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: is good for them, and also to sure that no 212 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: one is left behind very often, whether we're talking about 213 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: issues of gender, the exclusion of youth, or by ethnicity 214 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: or by age, and perhaps even understanding how indigenous peoples, 215 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: both through their autonomy but also belonging to nation states, 216 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: need to be understood and engage in the development process 217 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: in different ways. So governance also has to with fundamental 218 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: human rights, but above all, it also has to do 219 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,239 Speaker 1: with the role of government and the state in regulating 220 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: and providing in a society for the kinds of judiciary 221 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: and legislative processes that make citizens believe that they're actually 222 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: represented in their country and their views shape the national 223 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: development choices. More recently, we have the way that we 224 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: think about the role of UANDP focused more and more 225 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: on the future of development. We have often focused in 226 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: the past on solving problems that are legacy problems, lack 227 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: of access to education, lack of access to electricity, and 228 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: in the least developed countries that still very often is 229 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: our folks, but for many countries middle income countries also 230 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: who often turned to UNDP for our advice, for our input, 231 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 1: for our support. It's more the issues of the future. 232 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: How do we deal with inequality growing in most countries, 233 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: how do we deal with industrialization in a decarbonization age, 234 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: how do we deal with essentially transforming our energy systems 235 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: from a fossil fuel hydrocarbon based system to clean energy, 236 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: and how do we deal with digitalization? And also how 237 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: do we deal with the private sector that is not 238 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: only large corporations. Every small scale farmer is a private 239 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: sector actor, every social entrepreneur, every startup is a private 240 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: sector operator. But if we think about it from the 241 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: historical lens. One thing that we didn't touch upon in 242 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: my story is India was a colony of Britain, and 243 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the lack of progress and development is 244 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: tied to colonialism, to a period of extraction that happened, 245 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: that took wealth away, that took resources away, that took 246 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: the very fabric of soci the instructure and governance away 247 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: during a period of hundreds of years. Is the UNDP 248 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: in some way an apology from the rich countries. Reparations 249 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: might be allotted term to help those countries that they colonize, 250 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: which are now run by people who are aware of 251 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: the abuses that happened, as a way to ensure that 252 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: those colonies can get back to speed to where they 253 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: were before colonialism. Look, it's an interesting question, and if 254 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: I were to comment on is it an apology? I 255 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: would say, well, given the volume of extraction that happened 256 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: through the colonial period, and if you take the discourse 257 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: about the economic center and the periphery, then UNDPS work 258 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: over the last few decades is a pretty small apologies. 259 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: So I would not necessarily see that as the principal 260 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: rationale for UNDPS existence. I think on the country. It's 261 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: more the growing realization, just like in many societies, that 262 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: if inequality, if the sense of injustice and of exclusion 263 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: grows continuously, it ultimately undermines the fabric and the viability 264 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: of societies. We live today in the twenty first century 265 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: in a globalized economy, but it's not only about trade. 266 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: People try to reduce globalization to trade and essentially you 267 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: know how countries can export and input from one another. 268 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: We also live in an age where we are connected 269 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: to each other by news, by for example, the pollution 270 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: of one country determining the very fate of another country 271 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: five thousand miles away in the Pacific. We need to 272 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: have a mature reflection on what is it that has 273 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: gone wrong with globalization, which essentially was a sort of 274 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: unleashing of economic forces in a very unequal world. So 275 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: it also created extraordinary progress. Let's not deny that China 276 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: would not have been able to reduce the number of 277 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: people living in poverty and extreme poverty by seven hundred 278 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: million over the last twenty five thirty years. India, just 279 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: in the last few years, again through economic growth and 280 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: job creation, has helped one hundred million people escape poverty. 281 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: But you know, at the same time, people are not 282 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: only per capita income creatures. We're not robots. We also 283 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: look at injustice. We know so much more about what 284 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: is possible, and when we, for example, discuss an issue 285 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: such as migration today, migration is very often also an 286 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: expression of hopelessness. It's sometimes the product of conflict, of 287 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 1: extreme disasters, but more often than all that it is 288 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: young people looking at what their life would look like 289 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: if they stayed at home, or seeing every day what 290 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: life could be like if you were somewhere else. This 291 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: translates into terrible debates about migration that I find very 292 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: often offensive, because, particularly in societies that actually have benefited 293 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: from migration themselves have been the product of migration, sometimes 294 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: take the harshest view of migrants today. The very fact 295 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: is we have always been a world that has moved around, 296 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: but inequality has created such amplification of these pressure points 297 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: that we are no longer managing it in a way 298 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: that is actually a positive. It is dividing as it 299 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: is polarizing us. And so going back to your example 300 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: of India, you know, India just in the last few 301 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: years has again demonstrated that there is always a historical 302 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: narrative and also a reason for where things in a 303 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: sense emanated from. But we've also seen in the story 304 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: of India is that it is reinventing itself in the 305 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: twenty first century. Who would have thought ten years ago 306 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: that India would today be the largest investor in a 307 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: short period of just ten years of building four hundred 308 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand megawats of clean energy infrastructure in India. Yeah, 309 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: these are the kinds of revolutions that also have increasingly 310 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: to do with how governments and how economies make choices. 311 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: Let's try and put some numbers to how much money 312 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: is spent from the UNDP relative to other organizations. So 313 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: the unf Triple c has a budget of tens of 314 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: millions of euros. It's based in bond in Germany. That's 315 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: why the budget is in euros. The UNDP, the last 316 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: numbers we checked was that you raise about six and 317 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: a half billion dollars and you give out about four 318 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: and a half billion dollars. There's some surplus that's orders 319 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: of magnitude more than what a climate change committee is 320 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: able to pull off. What specifically happens with that money, 321 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: and that may be large money relative to what we're 322 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: talking in climate world, but it's very small money relative 323 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: to any large economies government budget. So what do you 324 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: do with it? And how do you ensure that with 325 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: that much money you're able to achieve these really important goals. 326 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, just put a little bit 327 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: of perspective on the We receive six now billion, but 328 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: we only spend four now a billion might make some 329 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: people say, well, we have two billion gns. So in 330 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: part this has to do that during COVID in the crisis, 331 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: we receive multi year financing agreements. Therefore, in one year 332 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: our income may be six now billion, but is actually 333 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: to them be spent over two or three years. So 334 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: on average, UNDP at the moment has roughly four and 335 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: a half billion dollars at Many different countries, including many 336 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: developing countries, invest in order to have UNDP as a 337 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: partner at their side, and these four and a half 338 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: billion dollars enable us first of all, to be the 339 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: backbone to the United Nations development system. Because UNDP has 340 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: this remarkable presence across the globe. We operate in one 341 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy countries, virtually unmatched by any other development organization. 342 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: We are part if you want, in many respects of 343 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: the national development ecosystem, and in that sense a partner 344 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: that countries turned to sometimes to think about very taxing issues, 345 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: short term crisis, but also to think about yes, energy transition, 346 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 1: addressing social injustice, eradication of poverty. So do you have 347 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: a number that says for every dollar that UNDB spends, 348 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: there is x amount of dollars that come from other places, 349 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: that other governments, from private sector to support the goals 350 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: that you're pursuing. It's very difficult to do that because 351 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean we receive four and a half billion dollars 352 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: in new made a contrast, for example, the UNF Triple C, 353 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: the Framework Convention Secretary of the Climate Change Convention. Now 354 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: the mandate of the Convention and the Secretary is essentially 355 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 1: to convene the conference of the parties to support and 356 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: monitor the implementation of that agreement. We are actually the 357 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: largest implementer of climate change support projects across the world, 358 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: so we actually work very much in tandem in complementarity 359 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: with UNF Triple C. A Paris Agreement triggers financing through 360 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 1: the Green Climate Funds, through the Global Environment Facility countries 361 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 1: then turned to UNDP and say will you work with 362 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: us in order to access this funding, help us invested. 363 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: So we are today the implementer of the largest portfolio 364 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: of climate projects on mitigation, on adaptation in the whole 365 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: UN system. And can we talk about some of those 366 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: specific projects. Yes, let me give you one of the 367 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: latest ones that's starting just now. Renewable energy, particularly in 368 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: the African continent, is still in a sense finding its 369 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: feed both between national regular three frameworks and the opportunity 370 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: in terms of actually a shortcut to access to electricity. 371 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: So on the one hand, we help many countries review 372 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: their energy sector regulatory framework because very often it prevents 373 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: independent power producers. If I have a solar panel, I 374 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: cannot sell my electricity to the national grid. How do 375 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: you change that environment? It's called de risking. At the 376 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: other end is we have with GF funding, launched a 377 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: program in twenty one countries on the African continent now 378 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 1: on mini grids, essentially helping countries would in place the legislation, 379 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: secure the financing, look at the targeting of where these 380 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: are most effectively deployed, and potentially helping one hundred million 381 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: people to gain access to electricity affordable and clean electricity 382 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: in a few years time. We are also helping, as 383 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: I mentioned at the beginning, countries such as Pakistan to 384 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: raise in the international community and understanding that what happened 385 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: last year with those extreme floods has a great deal 386 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: to the climate change. In EVA, the Secret Journal of 387 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: the UN and the Prime Minister of Pakistan managed to 388 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: bring together an international community to pledge nine billion dollars 389 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: towards a climate resilient reconstruction rehabilitation effort. This is what 390 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: we do every day across the world and across many 391 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: different sectors, depending on where a country sees the greatest priority. 392 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: After the break, why has the human Development index gone 393 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: into decline? And how can we avoid increasing inequality as 394 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: we take climate action? In terms of migration, which is 395 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: something you've touched upon, what we do know is that 396 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: climate migration has begun and it's expected to accelerate because 397 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: emissions haven't fallen to zero, and until they don't, temperatures 398 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: will rise and climate impacts will And so what is 399 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: it that the UNDB is doing now to start dealing 400 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: with what's likely to be an even larger migration event 401 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: happening it's first of all to understand migration is not 402 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: an isolated phenomenon in its own You want to address migration, 403 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: you have to address development. You address development in a 404 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: sense of creating opportunities. You actually first will remove one factor, 405 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: which is the pull factor. I know something on the 406 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: other side of the Atlantic, of the Mediterranean, of the 407 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: border to my neighboring country is so much more promising. 408 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: In fact, the promise needs to be my own country. 409 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: So that is one of the greatest weapons we have 410 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: in terms of avoiding people feeling forced to leave the 411 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: country they call home in order to look for economic 412 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: opportunity elsewhere. That's what when people also say, look development, 413 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: a development corporation, and these things that we did in 414 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, and here I always look the 415 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: era of development at has long passed. What we do 416 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 1: today is is to have development corporation. We need to 417 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: invest in one another in order to be able to 418 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: tackle the challenges that might have to with climate change 419 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: on the one then, but may also have to do 420 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: with technology, infrastructure and energy on the other. And so 421 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: from my perspective, we need to understand migration first of 422 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: all as something that should be a choice that is 423 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: not forced on you, but that you make because you 424 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: actually believe this is where you want to be. The 425 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: un is doing a lot of work to first of all, 426 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: deal with the pressures around migration. But UNDP in particular 427 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: is an institution that is in the front lines of 428 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: addressing the very factors that push people out of their homes, 429 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: and that has to do, for examples, with climate change 430 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: responses adaptation. How do you help people not lose everything 431 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: when an extreme weather event occurs. How do we invest, 432 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: for example, in rural economies in order to not have 433 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: this phenomenon where more and more people feel they can 434 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: only migrate to the city if they want to survive here. Again, 435 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: digital becomes very interesting. Fiber optic cables that reach provincial 436 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: capitals begin to connect people in the rural areas, means 437 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: that suddenly not only do you have access to a 438 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: new universe or services of markets, you also have young 439 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: people not having to live in a slum in the 440 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: capital city in order to try and make it in 441 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: this new economy. But you can actually go back, live 442 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: with your family and work in that digital economy of 443 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: today where you are physically far less bound to be 444 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: in places where traditionally they were the only point of access. 445 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: It's a way of thinking about development as opportunities abounding, 446 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: but we need good public policy. A key area of 447 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: our work is to help governments quickly learn from each 448 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: other and then help governments to experiment. Because every country 449 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: has its own reality, you have to then adapt to 450 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: national circumstances. Something that the UNDP tracks is the Human 451 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: Development Index. Indeed, and since nineteen ninety the Human Development 452 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: Index was steadily increasing, which meant more people were able 453 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: to live a fuller potential of life. And then in 454 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen that trend reversed. This is a global average, 455 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: but it has reversed on average, and that was pre COVID. 456 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: In part, pre COVID, we already saw some of the 457 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: economic challenges being phased, but particularly the number that we 458 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: published in the twenty twenty one Human Development Report took 459 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: COVID into account. And the remarkable thing is that for 460 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: the first time in over thirty years of the Human 461 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: Development Report being produced and the Human Development Index being calculated, 462 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: we have seen two consecutive years in which the Human 463 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: Development Index has gone backwards. But you know, not just 464 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: as an average. In fact, almost ninety percent of the 465 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: countries have seen reversals, including places like the US. Exactly, 466 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: I was just going to mention life expectances in the US. 467 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: It's not just incomes, it's the quality of life, the 468 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,239 Speaker 1: number of people living in extreme poverty again, food and 469 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: hunger crisis that are re emerging. So we are living 470 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: through a period of a major setback in development, which 471 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: is explainable by a pandemic. Now the ripple effects of 472 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: Russia's invasion of the Ukraine on world food markets, world 473 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: energy markets, world financial markets. One of the greatest burdens 474 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: that developing countries are bearing right now as a result 475 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: of what is happening across the world is that we 476 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: are seeing a response to inflation going hand in hand 477 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: with the rise in interest rates, and so the debt 478 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: burden has now reached a point where UNDP's latest estimates 479 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: are that there are fifty one developing economies that are 480 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: literally under dead distress and one step away from that default. 481 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: And you know, to the world's financial system. It may 482 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: not be a significant part of the global GDP, but 483 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: it's actually twelve percent of the world's population, and it's 484 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: thirty percent of the poorest people on the planet that 485 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: live in those fifty one countries. Just imagine what this means. 486 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: Because we often talk about statistics per capita GDP interest rates. 487 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: This is men and women, girls and boys whose lives 488 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: are being fundamentally disrupted. Maybe cannot attend school, my father 489 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: cannot take his daughter to a local health clinic. Families 490 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: cannot feed their children with you know, sufficient food every day. 491 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: This is how our global discussions, including here and DA 492 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: has often become far too abstract. Talk about global recession, 493 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: we talked about markets. This is millions of people's lives 494 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: being fundamentally disrupted, absolutely and without them having to be 495 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: blamed for it. You know, this is the flip situation. 496 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: My life got better because of some work that my 497 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 1: parents did, but largely because being in a country at 498 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,239 Speaker 1: the time of development that helped them live to their 499 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: full potential. And that's being taken away from millions of people. 500 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: But actually, this is also why I'm such a passionate 501 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: believer in development cooperation, in the idea that development is 502 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: about choices, and these choices that are first of all 503 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: well informed and certainly are made with social justice and 504 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: sustainability in mind, actually are the key to progress. And 505 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 1: you know, the story of development over the last two 506 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: hundred years is in many respects a phenomenal success story. 507 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: You and I are products of it. You coming out 508 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,959 Speaker 1: of India. I was born the son of farmers. They 509 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: lived in Brazil. I got a good education, I found 510 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: opportunities in which to follow my own passion. As a 511 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: development economists, we can all tell stories. And the tragedy 512 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: of development is when the possibility is not available to people. 513 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: This is why we talk about access to education, about 514 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: access to energy and electricity, access to finance. That's the 515 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: great divider in our societies, and that's why inequality has 516 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: become such a poisoned chalice, so to speak, in our 517 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: modern world, because in our fixation to grow economies, to 518 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: create wealth, we simply lost sight of the fact that 519 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, wealth in aggregate and average terms means nothing 520 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: to somebody who has now access to the internet today. 521 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: A report came out by Oxfam in January that's a 522 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: two thirds of the new wealth generated since twenty twenty 523 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: has been captured by the richest one percent, while only 524 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: a third has gone to the remainder. Can human development 525 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: and climate goals be achieved in such a system. The 526 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: simple answer is no for two reasons. One because societies 527 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: will ultimately not tolerate this kind of inequality, and frankly speaking, 528 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: first of all, it's not essential. I often wonder whether 529 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: you know the Jeff Basis or the Elon Musco this 530 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: world would have somehow stayed in bed if they had 531 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: only earned one one hundredth of what they have earned. 532 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: And we all know the answer. No, their entrepreneurs, they're innovators. 533 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: It's just in the way that our economy or financial 534 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: system operates today. And the un Sacred Journal has repeatedly 535 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: now called out the global financial system also as essentially 536 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: reflecting a moral bankruptcy that is making it impossible to 537 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: address some of the issues that we could tackle in 538 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: The second answer to the wonderful work that Oxen does 539 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: in showing all policy options taxation of some fiscal policy options, 540 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: is that was just taxing five percent of that global wealth, 541 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: the billionaires wealth, as it is referred to, will generate 542 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: one point seven trillion dollars. That's one thillion and another 543 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: seven hundred billion dollars. Yeah. Can I just remind the 544 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: world that we can't even get it together right now 545 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: in the rich world to coinvest one hundred billion dollars 546 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: on climate change with developing countries. This is what's wrong 547 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: in our world, And I think Oxfan's lends on the 548 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: wealthy and opportunities to leverage that wealth in a way 549 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: that could solve so many problems, on education, on access 550 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: to energy. I think it's just a reminder that we 551 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: need to rethink the way we run our lives, our economies, 552 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: but also in the way we want to live together. 553 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: With eight billion people on this planet. We saw a 554 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: massive inequality in the distribution of COVID vaccines and resources 555 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: during the pandemic. How do we reduce this inequality with 556 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: a more persistent but slower burning problem like climate change? 557 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: And just to put here, as of July, seventy two 558 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: percent of people in high income countries were vaccinated, in 559 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: low income countries only twenty one percent. Well, you may 560 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: raise an eyeber action, and so well some of your listeners, 561 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: but I would argue very strongly multilateralism is fundamental to this. 562 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: If we live in a kind of geopolitical Darwinist world 563 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: where the strongest, the wealthiest will simply set the rules 564 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: for the twenty first century and beyond, I think we 565 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: will produce problems that will be insurmountable and unmanageable. So 566 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: multilateralism as an expression of nations coming around the table 567 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: essentially with very unequal realities, very unequal means. But in 568 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: the symbolism of the UN General Assembly, every nation, however 569 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: small or large, has one vote there. They have a 570 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: seat in that hall. We need to evolve that model 571 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: that was built after the Second World War into a 572 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: twenty first century platform for cooperation on the fundamental challenges 573 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: that no country individually consolves. So therein lies one answer, 574 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: I think to what you have outlined, And the second 575 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: part is just the ability to think of solutions as 576 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: not being beyond our reach. And I think there we 577 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: need to learn to work more with the scientific community, 578 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: with the private sector and not always think of the 579 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: private sector also as multinationals. The greatest percentage of renovations 580 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: around the world generally emanate from around kitchen tables and garages. 581 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's individual so solve problems, but then sometimes 582 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: don't find the attention to support to make them available 583 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: to the world at large. So these are the transformations 584 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,800 Speaker 1: I think that we will hopefully see happen much faster 585 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: and as a climate change reporter, I've thought about what 586 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,919 Speaker 1: climate is going to do to the world for years now. 587 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: The threat that many see, especially in Western countries, is 588 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: that their lives are going to be disrupted and their 589 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: quality of life is going to be poorer. That certainly 590 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: is a possibility. But the fear that I have, which 591 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: is the greatest fear, is of development metrics reversing and 592 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: then never we're getting to the golden age that many 593 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: many countries lived through in the last thirty years of 594 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: allowing for human potential to flourish, and that on the 595 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: aggregate feels a much larger loss. And so coming back 596 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 1: to climate, then we started with the understanding that climate 597 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: change presents the greatest threat to development, but then we 598 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: ended up talking about most of the issues that are 599 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: very current. So how do you make the case for 600 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: acting on climate change while these other crises, which are 601 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: very urgent, very important, continue to play. Look, at the 602 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: end of the day, climate change is not a parallel 603 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 1: universe to everything else that happens in development. In fact, 604 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: climate change is a consequence of millions of decisions being 605 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: made in the kinds of energy infrastructure we rely on, 606 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 1: in the kinds of transport systems, we have the sort 607 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: of buildings we build. And I think that is why 608 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: I so much appreciate the opportuned to now lead the 609 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: United Nations development problem, because in many ways it is 610 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: the institution that tries to bring together the threads that 611 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: allow us to imagine the future. That Mary Robinson, in fact, 612 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: when we launched this year or the twenty twenty two 613 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: UNDP Human Development Report said said there's a great deal 614 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: of various sobering statistics coming out of it, but built 615 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: within that report is also a narrative that says that 616 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: the greatest of times may still lie ahead of us. 617 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: And I think this is crucial because we often look 618 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: at climate change as if it's sort of a dragon 619 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: that we have to slay that is over here. The 620 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: reason why, for example, you INDP and its current strategic 621 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: plan set itself an almost unimaginable goal and then me 622 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: to help five hundred million people gain access to cleaning 623 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: affordable energy was a way of saying, look, we will 624 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: make climate change as a threat converted into an opportunity 625 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: part of everything we do. We don't yet quite know 626 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: how to do this, but we think it is perfectly feasible. 627 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: And that is why you see UNDP today being a 628 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: major player in many countries in helping to rethink energy systems, 629 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: looking at the way in which access to electricity is 630 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: not just a fundamental enabler of development. It's the access 631 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: to affordable and clean electricity that will allow a continent 632 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: such as Africa to pivot forward. We are a development 633 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: institution that believes in the future and the notion of 634 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: living in the age of the Anthropocene, which has become 635 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: a theme that we have also explored in our human 636 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: development ports. It is very much about understanding that we 637 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: are failing to respond as a human family to the 638 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: magnitude of the challenges of our time. But behind that 639 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: is a second story. We live in an age of 640 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: extraordinary possibility of being able to leverage technology and finance 641 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: and human ingenuity to actually make very different choices. And 642 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: you know what, last year, eighty one percent of all 643 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,919 Speaker 1: new electricity, generally infrastructure that came on to the greater 644 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: or into people's houses, will actually renewable. This is proof 645 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: that revolutions even in the energy sector, so locked down 646 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: in hydrocarmons, so in a sense locked into political economy. 647 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy seven exomobile scientists essentially wrote the true 648 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,720 Speaker 1: first chapter of the IPCC reports that were to follow. 649 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: It's the age of your responsibility that we live in. 650 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: It's not a fatalist moment in which we simply sit 651 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: back and give up. And that's the promise of development. 652 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: That's the future of development that U INDP very much 653 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 1: sees itself part of. Well. I enjoyed this a lot. 654 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,919 Speaker 1: We talked on very wide ranging subjects, and I could 655 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: keep going in many directions for a very long time. 656 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: But thank you for making the time. Thank you for 657 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: the opposite in the action. One of the things Arkim 658 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: and I touched upon was Oxfam's recently published report on inequality, 659 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: which shows two thirds of new wealth generated since the 660 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 1: pandemic has been captured by the top one percent. While 661 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: I was endeavors, I also spoke with Gabriella Buscher, the 662 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 1: executive director of OXFAM, to ask her about how inequality 663 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: contributes to climate change and why it is so hard 664 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: to untangle the two. Well, these are very complex and 665 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: intertwined issues, and they really question the way society as 666 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: a whole has been organized. So what we're saying is 667 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: what can we do, What policies can we put in 668 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: place to address it. And we link very much this 669 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: growing inequality with the effects on climate. So we talk 670 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,240 Speaker 1: about the carbon billionaires, how billionaires are in fact consuming 671 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: so many times more than is compatible with a one 672 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: point five degree warming, but also that they have doubled 673 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: the amount of investment and fosil fuel industries than the 674 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: average investor. So these things are very connected at that level. 675 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: And of course the worst effects of the climate crisis 676 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: are experienced in the most vulnerable places in the world. 677 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: So when I since Somalia last year, I could see 678 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: the effects of these protracted droughts, which has continued and 679 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: so it's the worst drought in living memory. And pastoralists 680 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: who are very, very resilient people and have put up 681 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: with all sorts of harsh conditions over centuries, are really 682 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: no longer able to cope with these much more extreme 683 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 1: weather events. We've linked the OXFAM report on inequality in 684 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: the show notes. Thanks so much for listening to Zero. 685 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please take a moment to rate, review, 686 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, Send it to 687 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: a friend, or send it to the richest person you know. 688 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 1: Get in touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net. 689 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine 690 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: driscoll Our. Theme music is composed by Wonderlely Special thanks 691 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,839 Speaker 1: to Kira Bindrim Summersadi and Robin Pomeroy at the World 692 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 1: Economic Forum for letting us use the podcast studio by 693 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,399 Speaker 1: Today's conversation was order I'm Akshatrati back next week.