Speaker 1: Is like when a kid is having a hard time,
Speaker 1: are we looking at them like they're a bad kid
Speaker 1: doing bad things, or are we looking at them like
Speaker 1: they're a good kid having a hard time. Hello, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome doctor Becky
Speaker 1: Kennedy to the show. Doctor Becky is a clinical psychologist
Speaker 1: and mom of three. Recently named the millennial parenting Whisperer
Speaker 1: by Time Magazine. She specializes in parenting and child development,
Speaker 1: with an emphasis on anxiety and resilience. Doctor Becky received
Speaker 1: her BA in psychology and Human Development from Duke University
Speaker 1: and her PhD in clinical psychology from Columbia University. Her
Speaker 1: latest book is called Good Inside, a Guide to Becoming
Speaker 1: the Parent you want to be. In this episode, I
Speaker 1: talked to doctor Becky about good parenting. Raising children is
Speaker 1: no easy task. As a mom herself, doctor Becky knows
Speaker 1: what that's like. Her parenting philosophy revolves around seeing the
Speaker 1: good inside every child and seeing the sturdy leader in
Speaker 1: every parent. She shares action advice and how to repair
Speaker 1: emotional connection after conflict, how to reduce shame, and how
Speaker 1: we can break unhealthy generational patterns. We also touch on
Speaker 1: the topics of genetics, resilience, attachment, and self care. Doctor
Speaker 1: Becky is awesome. I really enjoy chrying that and I
Speaker 1: really like her no nonsense manner in which she gives
Speaker 1: advice to parents. It's not only no nonsense, but it's
Speaker 1: also quite compassionate. She really has compassion for everyone involved
Speaker 1: in parent and children and believes in the ultimate good
Speaker 1: of all people. So, without further ado, I bring you
Speaker 1: doctor Becky. Hi. So you're a critical psychologist and you
Speaker 1: get your PhD from Colombia. Very nice, very nice. Can
Speaker 1: I ask who your advisor was? Yeah? My advisor was
Speaker 1: Lena Verdeli. Okay, and what was your specialization? Then? Well,
Speaker 1: I actually started with Sonia Luther under kind of resilience
Speaker 1: and adolescents and then ended up shifting she left it
Speaker 1: was the whole thing. So then worked with Lenna around
Speaker 1: evident spaced kind of the different between like evidence based
Speaker 1: and non evidence based kind of focused psychology PhD programs. Nice. Nice, No,
Speaker 1: I'm a professor Columbia now, but I but I'm my
Speaker 1: PhD at Yale. Nice But yeah, yeah, okay, So at
Speaker 1: what point did you you know? Because you've really carved
Speaker 1: out quite a niche for yourself. I mean, you're you're
Speaker 1: sure so popular my ego. Thanks, I mean on Instagram,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, how many followers does she have?
Speaker 1: Over a million? You're like justin Bieber's status in the
Speaker 1: in the parenting world. Now, but how did that happen? Like,
Speaker 1: can you just tell me a little bit more about
Speaker 1: like your trajectory to to the to the point of
Speaker 1: where you are today in this what you study. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it all starts when I realized, you know,
Speaker 1: you can make a living or you know, a career
Speaker 1: out of getting to know people. Essentially. It was always
Speaker 1: my favorite thing to do, ask a lot of questions,
Speaker 1: learn about their face, family. And so I went to
Speaker 1: Columbia for my PhD and had just so many amazing advisors,
Speaker 1: so much amazing clinical experience, working in patient hospital, working
Speaker 1: in forensic at Bellevue, working with kids, doing play therapy,
Speaker 1: working with you know, intensive personality disorder Institute, so many
Speaker 1: different things. And then I finished at Columbia and did
Speaker 1: my post doc at Columbia's Counseling Center just across the street,
Speaker 1: where I really loved that kind of college aged kind
Speaker 1: of population, in grad school population. And soon after that,
Speaker 1: I got I got pregnant during my postdoc year, and
Speaker 1: so I finished my post doc in August and had
Speaker 1: my first son that following October. So I and then
Speaker 1: after that I realized, you know, I knew I wanted
Speaker 1: to go back to work, and I wanted to have
Speaker 1: a private practice to have some flexibility and kind of
Speaker 1: create some deep relationships, and so opened up a private practice.
Speaker 1: And then you know, my kind of interest in working
Speaker 1: with the and intensive psychotherapy started to really overlap with
Speaker 1: my interest in like everything that was happening as a parent,
Speaker 1: because what I thought was just so interesting, Oh, like
Speaker 1: being a parent is so hard, Like I should know
Speaker 1: about this, I do know about this, and yet it's
Speaker 1: not always connecting the dots for me. And so I
Speaker 1: loved I loved working with parents and kind of doing
Speaker 1: more active almost some parent coaching, and so went to
Speaker 1: get more training at that point and kind of signed
Speaker 1: up for this fairly like behavioral behavior focused, evidence based
Speaker 1: parenting program and I did it, and honestly, at first
Speaker 1: I loved it. I really really did, just like lit
Speaker 1: up all the logical linear parts of my brain. And
Speaker 1: then really it was one day in my private practice
Speaker 1: I was like in the middle of a session with
Speaker 1: someone giving them advice about how to do it now,
Speaker 1: and I seriously I stopped. I was like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I was just like, I don't believe what I'm saying
Speaker 1: to you. They were like horrified, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I just I heear myself say something I wouldn't do
Speaker 1: with my own kid. And I haven't figured it out
Speaker 1: yet because I've taken this program and like in some
Speaker 1: part of me believes this, but like it doesn't feel
Speaker 1: right coming out. And then it really led to me
Speaker 1: thinking about like all these ways I work with adults
Speaker 1: and intensive psychotherapy and the ways that they're rewiring some
Speaker 1: of their earliest patterns. And I kept thinking like, well,
Speaker 1: what if my parent coaching philosophy and approach and strategies
Speaker 1: were actually just in line with my like deep psychotherapy
Speaker 1: approach and practice and strategies, except that maybe like adapted
Speaker 1: to be reversed, engineered to kids, you know, instead of
Speaker 1: to thirty forty fifty year old adults. And that just
Speaker 1: got me started. And then I literally kind of like
Speaker 1: randomly started an Instagram account and that was, you know,
Speaker 1: a little over two years ago, and here I am
Speaker 1: now talking to you on your awesome podcast. Oh thank you.
Speaker 1: So it just it just clicked with so many parents.
Speaker 1: I mean, you have so many ideas that are so resonant.
Speaker 1: Is there maybe a common thread that you can think
Speaker 1: that really rethinks the way we raise our children? Yeah?
Speaker 1: You know, I've been asked that question a bunch of times,
Speaker 1: and I really mean, this is the first time I
Speaker 1: think I have a good answer, because you know, it
Speaker 1: just takes a while to like, yeah, what your thoughts.
Speaker 1: I'm modern good diving, you know what it is? I
Speaker 1: really think the good inside approach here's like the dirty
Speaker 1: little secret is is it honors and respects and helps
Speaker 1: a parent like as much, maybe even a little more
Speaker 1: sometimes than it honors and respects and helps develop a
Speaker 1: child like And if I think about parenting, you know
Speaker 1: something we hear from a lot of parents, especially the moms.
Speaker 1: Although I'm biased because more moms are kind of part
Speaker 1: of our membership, you know than fathers. Is I'm losing myself.
Speaker 1: I'm depleted. I'm so I care about my kids. I
Speaker 1: love my kids so much. Maybe I'm a work inside
Speaker 1: the home parent and like these other parts of me,
Speaker 1: like they're neglected, Like I haven't seen them in years,
Speaker 1: and not surprisingly, they you know, gream out in the
Speaker 1: form of mom rage ever every you know so often,
Speaker 1: and I feel like one of the things with good
Speaker 1: inside is it's like, oh, I'm getting quote parenting advice
Speaker 1: and yeah, like someone said this to me. They're like,
Speaker 1: you capture our attention through tricky situations with our kids.
Speaker 1: But people, I think what I hear over numbers, they're like,
Speaker 1: I have grown as a person, like so much. Then
Speaker 1: I actually am able to be more grounded and more
Speaker 1: confident and more sturdy, so I can actually use the
Speaker 1: strategies for my kids because before that I learned them,
Speaker 1: but then in the moment they never came to me.
Speaker 1: But like the biggest benefit to me is like I
Speaker 1: feel like I have healed and grown in this journey.
Speaker 1: And I think it's really a parenting approach that sees
Speaker 1: a parent and helps a parent and helps really bring
Speaker 1: out the sturdy leader inside of a parent. It's really
Speaker 1: not only something kind of like everything else that's for
Speaker 1: your kid. It just makes so much sense why that
Speaker 1: would resonate with the parents. I mean, they're exhausted, as
Speaker 1: you say, and I think like, along with that, right,
Speaker 1: there's like this duality. I think that, like I see
Speaker 1: a lot so it's like this is as much for
Speaker 1: you as your kid. And also I think a lot
Speaker 1: of models around kind of parenting, Like there's this inherent choice. Okay,
Speaker 1: either I like do kind of prioritize my needs and
Speaker 1: I end up interacting with my kid in a way
Speaker 1: that I feel firm, I feel like authoritarian. I don't
Speaker 1: like the version of myself, Like I've never met a
Speaker 1: parent who's like, I love giving time out, so I
Speaker 1: feel so great after I send my kid to their
Speaker 1: room or I love threatening them, and I really love
Speaker 1: taking away TV. I just feel so empowered, Like I've
Speaker 1: never heard that, Like it feels shitty to everyone, but
Speaker 1: they're like, I have to get my kid to be
Speaker 1: hate right. So you're like, okay, I don't even think
Speaker 1: it does get that, but at least in theory, you're
Speaker 1: like I'm being firm, I'm being hard, I'm being this
Speaker 1: like authority, but it doesn't feel good, and you also
Speaker 1: know you're like not actually creating a meaningful relationship with
Speaker 1: your kid. So that's one side, and then there's this
Speaker 1: other side that's like some version of like feel the
Speaker 1: feelings just like the feelings are okay. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of parents are like oh okay, but like when
Speaker 1: we're in a grocery store and my kids like feeling
Speaker 1: the feelings and like knocking over all the boxes of cereal,
Speaker 1: Like what do I do? How does that help? Right? Exactly?
Speaker 1: So it's either like I otter my kids feelings and
Speaker 1: I maybe am building connection with them, or I like
Speaker 1: put up these kind of authoritarian controlled kind of approach
Speaker 1: in which I'm like only focused on behavior, but there
Speaker 1: I don't really feel connected to my kids, and I
Speaker 1: really don't feel that connected to myself, right, So it
Speaker 1: feels like there's been this choice, and I think like
Speaker 1: every one of our strategies that comes from like a
Speaker 1: really grounded theoretical framework, like gives parents the ability to
Speaker 1: embody their sturdy leadership, embody their authority. That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: being mean, it's you're like embodying your authority the way
Speaker 1: the leader of a company would embody their authority while
Speaker 1: building stronger connections to their kids. Like both are happening,
Speaker 1: and I know, like me too, Like oh good, Like
Speaker 1: I'm glad there's something between those two kind of like
Speaker 1: really not that compelling buckets, and I think that's also
Speaker 1: really striking a chord with parents. Yeah, you really are
Speaker 1: combining two things that needed combining. Start integrating is a
Speaker 1: better word for it. So do you draw on the
Speaker 1: science of positive psychology at all? Do you draw on
Speaker 1: the science of resiliency? It sounds like you're picking things
Speaker 1: that were in the adult literature and you're applying it
Speaker 1: to parenting, which is quite novel. So if you talk
Speaker 1: a little more about where you draw from, definitely. So
Speaker 1: if I think, if I think about this period when
Speaker 1: I really like had this, I don't know, it was
Speaker 1: like it was too early to be a midlife crisis,
Speaker 1: but it felt like that. It's like, wait, I don't
Speaker 1: believe in all these parents. I think, what do I
Speaker 1: believe in? Who am I? You know? And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: to start with one thing, I know, like, what do
Speaker 1: I know? Well, I feel pretty good about how I
Speaker 1: work with adults, and I think my framework for all
Speaker 1: the work I did with adults was something like this.
Speaker 1: Adults come in with a set of symptoms. They call
Speaker 1: them problems, right, And I really do believe symptoms in
Speaker 1: adulthood were all adaptations in childhood, like That's why I
Speaker 1: don't love diagnosis, because I feel like we pathologize a
Speaker 1: presentation in an adult that was a set of adaptations,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like someone internally in the body is
Speaker 1: like hello, I was trying to help you, you know.
Speaker 1: And so people, we wire in a certain way in
Speaker 1: our childhood, right, We develop patterned ways of thinking, and
Speaker 1: we develop, you know, procedural knowledge, all in an attempt
Speaker 1: to adapt and thrive in our earliest environment. Then fast
Speaker 1: forward twenty years. Well, guess what, Probably those ways are
Speaker 1: not actually adaptive in the general world, but understandably and
Speaker 1: in my mind, with gratitude, our body is hesitant to
Speaker 1: let go of the things that were put in place
Speaker 1: to protect us. So that really drives my work. Then
Speaker 1: how did I work with adults after that? Like to
Speaker 1: me as a combination of a lot of things, because
Speaker 1: a lot of people who know me will be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're a CBT therapist. You know, I'm not a s
Speaker 1: CBT therapist. I've never been trained really formally in CBT.
Speaker 1: I'm a very practical therapist. I use a lot of
Speaker 1: very practical strategies because I think people need to bridge
Speaker 1: insight and change with actual like doing things you know
Speaker 1: and take experiments, But what most inspires me has always
Speaker 1: been internal family systems. Like I could wax poetic about
Speaker 1: I love that approach to obsessed anything more sematically oriented
Speaker 1: mindfulness is like a start sematic experiencing. I like definitely
Speaker 1: draw from body work, and then I do draw from
Speaker 1: positive psychology for sure, and the idea that like someone's
Speaker 1: coming in because something that was a strength for them,
Speaker 1: something that was an adaptation, is no longer working, but
Speaker 1: like we have to learn the story of that and
Speaker 1: figure out how to help that person continue to use
Speaker 1: those strengths, but just in a way that's more adaptive
Speaker 1: now that they're an adult. And so what that makes
Speaker 1: me think about in terms of parenting is then okay,
Speaker 1: well let me let me now look back at now
Speaker 1: we have a five year old. If I really do
Speaker 1: believe that kind of struggles and adulthood where adaptations in
Speaker 1: childhood and I really do believe in Oh so I
Speaker 1: didn't say, like, probably the biggest influence for me has
Speaker 1: always been like attachment theory, right, and for every listening,
Speaker 1: I know you though this, but that's not the same
Speaker 1: as attachment parenting. Attachment theory then like kids are trying
Speaker 1: to adapt like this is like I keep kind of
Speaker 1: those like they're trying their best. Like, no five year
Speaker 1: old who's completely dependent on their parent to survive is
Speaker 1: trying to mess up their attachment relationships so that they're
Speaker 1: abandoned and left alone on the street. Like, no one's
Speaker 1: trying to do that. That just wouldn't be evolutionarily possible.
Speaker 1: So then I feel like I just get curious about kids. Well,
Speaker 1: why if kids are trying to do their best, then
Speaker 1: why do so many kids do like so many annoying
Speaker 1: things like all the time? Right? And that really informed
Speaker 1: my lens right especially, It's like kids are trying to
Speaker 1: maximize for attachment safety and they're trying to figure themselves out.
Speaker 1: And I think there's then this like almost like framework
Speaker 1: shift that I think about a ton with parenting is
Speaker 1: like when a kid is having a hard time, are
Speaker 1: we looking at them like they're a bad kid doing
Speaker 1: bad things? Or are we looking at them like they're
Speaker 1: a good kid having a hard time. And I actually
Speaker 1: think that's the starting point for the entire approach we have,
Speaker 1: because when you're punishing a kid or sending them away
Speaker 1: or saying somethings I've said these things too, like what's
Speaker 1: wrong with you? Why can you be more generous like
Speaker 1: your sister? You're so selfish. I'm looking at my kid
Speaker 1: who's not sharing their snack with their sister as a
Speaker 1: bad kid doing bad things. If I step in and say, look,
Speaker 1: I told you those snacks where to share, it looks
Speaker 1: like you're having a really hard time sharing. I know
Speaker 1: you're not going to like this. I am going to
Speaker 1: take that bowl from your hand so I can divvy
Speaker 1: up the snacks between you and your sister. Something must
Speaker 1: be going on for you, and we'll figure that out later.
Speaker 1: For now, I'm going to step between you. Well, first
Speaker 1: of all, there's nothing about that approach that's like soft
Speaker 1: or like anything goes. It's actually very I think again
Speaker 1: bodying of your authority. But I'm looking at my kid
Speaker 1: as having a hard time. They're a good kid having
Speaker 1: a hard time. They're trying to do their best, and
Speaker 1: their best still isn't so safe for isn't so great,
Speaker 1: and so I need to step in. And that's what
Speaker 1: I think really is almost the foundation of like every
Speaker 1: everything we end up recommending when kids are struggling, is
Speaker 1: like they're a good kid underneath their behavior is not
Speaker 1: an indication of their identity. It's an indication of a
Speaker 1: struggle they're having, mostly through that behavior, saying like I
Speaker 1: really need your help. I need your help now to
Speaker 1: help me stop, and I definitely need your help outside
Speaker 1: of the fact to help me build skills I clearly
Speaker 1: didn't have so I can show up differently the next time.
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Speaker 1: you grow and thrive and become your best self. Okay,
Speaker 1: now back to the show. It's a very compassionate approach.
Speaker 1: I mucht I agree that every kid is good underneath.
Speaker 1: What do you do with like little monsters? You know,
Speaker 1: and like I feel like you're you're you're you would
Speaker 1: you would never even say said you such a phrase
Speaker 1: because you just said they're all good underneath. But there
Speaker 1: are some kids. There are some kids who are like,
Speaker 1: you know, callous on emotional traits, which is the precursor
Speaker 1: to psycho adult psychopath. So, from your compassionate lens, what
Speaker 1: is your advice to a parent who is raising a
Speaker 1: child who is showing those clinical callous on emotional traits
Speaker 1: at a very young age within your framework? Look, I
Speaker 1: would defend, you know, to my core that I think
Speaker 1: there's like internal goodness. I really really do. I love that.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that everything is excusable, right that, like
Speaker 1: at all? Like those two things. And again, I think
Speaker 1: so many times we convert like people will be like, oh,
Speaker 1: so he's a good kid, so it's okay that he's
Speaker 1: just punching his friend on the playground, Like no, why
Speaker 1: are only two choices that he's a bad kid or
Speaker 1: that it's okay? Like, don't I don't buy that binary?
Speaker 1: You know? So what would I say if a family
Speaker 1: came to me and they're like, look, my seven year
Speaker 1: old seems to have like no empathy for anyone, like
Speaker 1: they seem totally out for themselves. They seem, I don't know,
Speaker 1: so callous, like they've never seemed to care about anyone else,
Speaker 1: Like how would I It's hard to like conjecture, like
Speaker 1: because I don't think i'd be like, well, oh cool,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you came in. Here's like the five steps
Speaker 1: you know, to bring out the good insides, like you know,
Speaker 1: But I do believe, of course, kids have come into
Speaker 1: the world with like temperaments and predispositions, and I also
Speaker 1: believe kids then interact in their environment, and through those interactions,
Speaker 1: certain things are more or less likely to get more expressed,
Speaker 1: you know, et cetera, et cetera. Right, there's a temperament,
Speaker 1: personality times environment interaction. And so my approach with parents
Speaker 1: and this is like I always say, like, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's your fault that your kid is the way
Speaker 1: they are. I really mean that, Like, I actually don't
Speaker 1: think it's your fault. And I think it is your
Speaker 1: responsibility to get to know your kid and to think
Speaker 1: about the environment that your unique child you know, needs
Speaker 1: to develop in like the best way as is possible
Speaker 1: for your child. And what I mean by your responsibility
Speaker 1: is you know, like we would never if if a
Speaker 1: CEO was running a company and having a lot of
Speaker 1: employees who are like, I don't know, coming in late
Speaker 1: or whatever, we would never say that, like the change
Speaker 1: starts with the associates. You'd be like, something's going on
Speaker 1: in the culture, and like it's not necessarily your fault
Speaker 1: that everyone's coming in late, Like there could be a
Speaker 1: million factors. Change does start with you as the top
Speaker 1: of that pyramid, right, And so that's like the way
Speaker 1: I would approach it with a parent. So what would
Speaker 1: that mean, I mean, I'd get to know that more.
Speaker 1: I'd want to know more, Well, what is the way
Speaker 1: what happens when this kid does display this like lack
Speaker 1: of empathy, What are they doing outside the moment to
Speaker 1: build empathy. I think a lot of people think we
Speaker 1: build empathy in a way that does not all build
Speaker 1: empathy and actually builds and shame, which then can mask
Speaker 1: empathy later on. So I'd be curious if they're constantly
Speaker 1: saying this can, look how upset you made her, Look
Speaker 1: how she's crying. Don't you care about her crying? Which
Speaker 1: to me, like that is not how anybody actually develops empathy.
Speaker 1: That's how people develop feeling really shitty about themselves and
Speaker 1: cold hearted. I think this also brings another point that
Speaker 1: I think is really inherent in general. The good inside
Speaker 1: is I really believe that we have to be able
Speaker 1: to see things in our kids before they're able to
Speaker 1: see those things in themselves. It's know how their parents
Speaker 1: look at them. And I don't know if I'm sure
Speaker 1: you maybe have heard of this phrase or something like it.
Speaker 1: I am as I am seen right, that's like that
Speaker 1: attachment relationship. That's the idea of a parent as a mirror. Well,
Speaker 1: if we are constantly reflecting back to our kid that
Speaker 1: they are a monster without empathy, if we're saying those things,
Speaker 1: if we're looking at them in those ways, if we're
Speaker 1: interpreting their behavior through that lens, well, that is how
Speaker 1: they identify over time, more and more and more and again,
Speaker 1: does that mean a parent need a kid that way?
Speaker 1: It really doesn't. It's much more nuanced and that, but
Speaker 1: it does mean that's starting to intervene differently and have
Speaker 1: a different framework, like we'll have a really big impact
Speaker 1: on a child. I mean, think about how awful it
Speaker 1: is as an eight year old or as a four
Speaker 1: year old to be looked at by adults, by your
Speaker 1: caregivers like you are just you know, years away from
Speaker 1: becoming a sociopath. Like that's really that's really fucking sad.
Speaker 1: That's easy, even hard for a fifty year old. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: if they're diagnosed. Look, this is very compassion of you.
Speaker 1: It's compassion of all sides, the child children as well
Speaker 1: as the parents who have to deal with it. You know,
Speaker 1: they can be very hard, a lot to deal with
Speaker 1: first for some parents. Some children are easier for parents
Speaker 1: than others. We have to admit that, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: beyond I actually think, you know, I think it's it's
Speaker 1: really interesting. Like I have three kids, right, and I
Speaker 1: really believe each of my kids like needs a different parent.
Speaker 1: And I don't mean like they actually need to be
Speaker 1: farmed out to a different family, although sometimes it feels
Speaker 1: like everyone would benefit, you know from Yes, what I
Speaker 1: mean is they each need me to like lead with
Speaker 1: a different part of myself, Like I really like to
Speaker 1: have the right match and look and going back to
Speaker 1: the work and the parent that's really hard work, that's exhausting.
Speaker 1: And if anybody listening is like I do have that
Speaker 1: kid who seems like they really don't care about anyone's feelings.
Speaker 1: I feel for you as the parent, like, of course,
Speaker 1: it's the most reactive, easy thing to say, like what's
Speaker 1: wrong with you? Are you a psychopathy? Of course, And
Speaker 1: like if I were in your shoes, I'd be saying
Speaker 1: the same thing sometimes and hopefully i'd catch myself repair
Speaker 1: when I could, and a little bit more often try
Speaker 1: to intervene in a slightly different way. So, yes, it's so,
Speaker 1: it's so hard. Yeah, yeah, so it can be absolutely
Speaker 1: And I really like how you distinguish very clearly clearly
Speaker 1: between your principle of internal goodness and the fact that
Speaker 1: it just doesn't mean that anything goes. You said that earlier,
Speaker 1: when you said, you know, you're not like bleaming or
Speaker 1: you're you're not like excusing excusing bad behavior, but you
Speaker 1: still stick by this principle of internal goodness in a way,
Speaker 1: it's quite consistent with my own humanistic psychology approach you
Speaker 1: know of to adults. Yeah, you know, which is uh,
Speaker 1: you at least try to. I'm a big believer in
Speaker 1: Carl Rogers unconditional positive regard. I don't know to what
Speaker 1: extent you are familiar with that concept, but it seems
Speaker 1: in line with the principle of internal goodness. It is,
Speaker 1: you know, I always think about anything I have, like
Speaker 1: something of a principle around. I always feel like and
Speaker 1: I want to turn it into a strategy because I
Speaker 1: always hate and I've been to so many psych events
Speaker 1: like this where I'm like, that's so interesting whatever someone's saying,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, how do I do it? Like I
Speaker 1: need to know when I walk out of this room
Speaker 1: how to do the thing and put into action. And
Speaker 1: to me, the idea of being good inside, you know,
Speaker 1: put into a strategy is something I call MGI like
Speaker 1: the most generous interpretation, which is really in line with
Speaker 1: Carl Rogers' ideas. Yeah, so it's a powerful intervention. Like
Speaker 1: even if anyone listening right now is like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: thing happened with my kid or with your partner or
Speaker 1: with yourself, like oh I told them not to eat
Speaker 1: before dinner and they grab chocolate anyway, right, most of
Speaker 1: us can come up with what I call an LGI,
Speaker 1: a least Enner's interpretation so quickly, Oh my son doesn't
Speaker 1: respect me, like WHOA, Like I don't even know, Like
Speaker 1: it's just so easy and just ask, like, what is
Speaker 1: the most generous interpretation of what happened? Like, our whole
Speaker 1: framework shifts, and that framework shift allows us to intervene differently.
Speaker 1: That allows us to look at our kid differently. That
Speaker 1: allows our kid to look at themselves differently, And how
Speaker 1: kids learn to look at themselves also becomes how they
Speaker 1: start to look at other people. Right, So it's a
Speaker 1: really it's a huge impact. Yeah, all these feedback cycles,
Speaker 1: there's so many. You're right, You're right. You said anything
Speaker 1: earlier that I thought was really interesting. You said, well,
Speaker 1: it's not the parent's fault. You know, you don't want
Speaker 1: to blame the parents for how the child is acting
Speaker 1: at age six. First of all, you reminded me of
Speaker 1: the Philip Warkin poem This be the verse. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you're familiar with it. I need to do though.
Speaker 1: They fuck you up, your mom and dad. They may
Speaker 1: not mean to you, but they do. They fill you
Speaker 1: with the faults they had and add some extra just
Speaker 1: for you. But they were fucked up in their turn
Speaker 1: by fools and old style hats and coats who half
Speaker 1: the time were soppy, stern and half at one another's throats.
Speaker 1: Man hands on misery. To man, it deepens like a
Speaker 1: coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can and
Speaker 1: don't have any kids yourself. So yeah, yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: I don't think that's your message. It's the opposite of
Speaker 1: your message. It's the opposite of your message in terms
Speaker 1: of the nature and nurture debate. Though, I think that
Speaker 1: what you're saying is correct to a certain degree. It
Speaker 1: is a parent's fault in the sense they are giving
Speaker 1: the child their genes to a certain degree. But that's
Speaker 1: that's not something you can blame a parent for, you know,
Speaker 1: like consciously they didn't intentionally do that. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I really do believe this. I really do
Speaker 1: believe that people are doing the best they can with
Speaker 1: their resources they have available in that moment and what
Speaker 1: I would think about intergenerationally or even Okay, so because
Speaker 1: this happens a lot, we have a lot of people,
Speaker 1: you know, take some of our workshops, and it's a
Speaker 1: really I feel like it's a really vulnerable, brave thing
Speaker 1: to be open to learning, because like learning something new,
Speaker 1: even an idea, like as much as it could help
Speaker 1: you change, it can also really shut you down with
Speaker 1: like shame, like, oh, fuck, I'm a horrible person, Like
Speaker 1: I can't believe I didn't know that, or what kind
Speaker 1: of parent would have done the things I already did.
Speaker 1: So I always think it's so brave to even be
Speaker 1: open to learning, right, But I do think it's true.
Speaker 1: Like we like every parent loves their kid, Like you
Speaker 1: want to change the way you're parenting your six year old,
Speaker 1: and you feel like, wow, like my six year old struggling,
Speaker 1: they must need something different. Like I think we can
Speaker 1: say for those six years, I was doing the best
Speaker 1: I could with the resources I have available, and I'm
Speaker 1: really going to go get more resources. I'm going to
Speaker 1: go get different resources, you know, and then in some
Speaker 1: ways I'll be doing the same thing. I'll be doing
Speaker 1: the best I can at the resources I have available,
Speaker 1: but my resources will change, so I'm going to change. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the perspective you're taking is very, very practical, and it's
Speaker 1: very very from the perspective of wanting to clearly help
Speaker 1: parents and children. I'm talking nerdily about you know, the
Speaker 1: science of it. Technically. Technically, Yeah, it's a very interesting
Speaker 1: when you think about it. As the behavioral geneticists have
Speaker 1: shown there's a much larger proportion of it, which is
Speaker 1: genetic similarity, which means it can create that can create
Speaker 1: some interesting cycles between the child and parent because they
Speaker 1: both share similar traits. If let's say the mother is
Speaker 1: hugely narcissistic and they have given the child genes that
Speaker 1: makes the child hugely narcissistic, you now have a fight
Speaker 1: between a narcissistic mother a narcissic child, and that creates it.
Speaker 1: So there's interesting cycles emerging from the fact that they
Speaker 1: do share certain perhaps stubborn traits, you know, from both
Speaker 1: both sides. I think again, it's why like bringing intentionality
Speaker 1: or being a cycle breaker in parenting. It's like when
Speaker 1: people say, oh, it's hard work, they're not like saying
Speaker 1: that as a throwaway, like it's it's really it's really
Speaker 1: hard work, really is. And this actually segues nicely into
Speaker 1: I really love this next principle. Well, it's a mode
Speaker 1: the two things are true mode. Well, I love that
Speaker 1: because I love thinking in terms of dialecticals. I love
Speaker 1: thinking in terms of seemingly opposite things that we can
Speaker 1: integrate together. So that's what I'm all about that. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: so we can hold all these things we're saying as
Speaker 1: true at the same time. Right, So, yes, it may
Speaker 1: be true that there's a significant overlap of traits between
Speaker 1: parent child, but that also is true that the parent
Speaker 1: can be very intentional about how they regulate their own
Speaker 1: traits and the way that they respond to their child. Right,
Speaker 1: and they're et cetera, et cetera. Us, So, can you
Speaker 1: elaborate a little bit more on how the two things
Speaker 1: are true mode can really help parents with their parenting? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the idea of two things are
Speaker 1: true can help all of us in every single area
Speaker 1: of life because so often when we're really frozen in something, right,
Speaker 1: we're stuck ourselves or being in a power struggle with
Speaker 1: someone as like a version of being frozen, we're usually
Speaker 1: in like a one thing is true mode where it
Speaker 1: feels like, oh, me and my partner are like anything.
Speaker 1: He wants to go to his parents for the holiday,
Speaker 1: I don't want to go to my parents, and like
Speaker 1: it feels like we can't, like we can't even talk
Speaker 1: about it, probably because we each are defending something singular.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think this happens all the time in parenting,
Speaker 1: and it happens, you know, relative to what we were
Speaker 1: talking about before, Like wait, so if I say to
Speaker 1: my kid, oh, you're so mad at your sister, like
Speaker 1: it's okay that he hit her, Like I'm always like wait, WHOA,
Speaker 1: now do be there? Like two things are true. I
Speaker 1: will not let you hit and I get that you're mad.
Speaker 1: Let's find another way for you to express that feeling. Right.
Speaker 1: We have such a way of narrowing our perspective, right,
Speaker 1: And I think it's because like when all of us
Speaker 1: in our early wiring, like most adults I know would
Speaker 1: say yeah, when I was having a hard time, like
Speaker 1: I was definitely looked at as a bad kid, like
Speaker 1: nobody saw that I was struggling. Nobody saw that I
Speaker 1: was a good kid having a hard time, that my
Speaker 1: behavior was separate from our identity. And so we've been
Speaker 1: really raised and brought up and wired with a one
Speaker 1: thing is true mentality, Like whatever I see on the
Speaker 1: surface is the entire truth, right, Like that's it. And
Speaker 1: so I think, like an example of two things are
Speaker 1: true that I hear over and over, that I give
Speaker 1: over and over that I think is compelling is like
Speaker 1: let's say your kid wants to watch another TV show
Speaker 1: and you've decided like TV time is over right. If
Speaker 1: I'm in one thing, it's true mentality. I probably say
Speaker 1: something like this, you're being so difficult. You know what's
Speaker 1: wrong with you? We said two shows, right, then my
Speaker 1: kid is like, I want to watch another one. It's
Speaker 1: just like a disaster, okay. Or I see my kid
Speaker 1: as upset and I'm like, oh, I have the right
Speaker 1: to make a decision, and my kids are right, and
Speaker 1: their feelings don't dictate my decision. But also my decision
Speaker 1: doesn't dictate their feelings. Yes, yes, this is brilliant. This
Speaker 1: is brilliant. This is I'd see why they call you
Speaker 1: the Instagram parenting whisperer. I don't know if anyone actually
Speaker 1: calls me that, but only my husband make him. Did
Speaker 1: you see that article though about you? Yes, it's it's
Speaker 1: followed there, there's worse. There's worse titles. I could follow
Speaker 1: me around. Yes, Oh my god, this is so funny. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know this is this is really uh, really great stuff.
Speaker 1: Do you ever follow just for fun? Like the prior
Speaker 1: generations parenting advice people like doctor was this doctor Spock?
Speaker 1: No doctor? Is that right? No doctor? There's doctor right? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not as familiar with doctor Spock's like, uh, like
Speaker 1: actual you know kind of writing. But doctor Carp like
Speaker 1: when I was a parent, you know, like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like that was like my Bible, like the five S's
Speaker 1: you know, I actually got to talk to him, however
Speaker 1: many months ago. Is like a real you know, a
Speaker 1: real treat. Yeah. Like Margaret Mahler's book about the Psychological
Speaker 1: Life of an infant, Like, you know, that was like
Speaker 1: a thing I remember reading in my grad school. So sure,
Speaker 1: for sure that's you know stuff. I I also read
Speaker 1: this stuff as a parent, Right, those are like the
Speaker 1: Brazilton right, all the Brazilton books around development. So yeah,
Speaker 1: certainly a lot of people learn from. Yeah. What's very
Speaker 1: unique about your approach is, uh, it seems like everything
Speaker 1: kind of pivots around the idea of connection, how to
Speaker 1: increase a high quality connection with your child in the
Speaker 1: parlance of positive psychology. You have this one thing where
Speaker 1: you say the key element is connection after disconnection. So
Speaker 1: does that take a lot of mindfulness and a lot
Speaker 1: of intentionality to be able to kind of constantly recalibrate that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what I think about in terms of connection
Speaker 1: after disconnection. A lot of what I think about there
Speaker 1: is like a repair, right, because I think we all
Speaker 1: feel triggered by our kids. We all get exhausted, we
Speaker 1: all say things that we don't want to say, and
Speaker 1: then often what happens is a parent goes into like
Speaker 1: a shame spiral. I'm a horrible parent, you know, And
Speaker 1: then we don't go back to talk about it with
Speaker 1: our kid, usually because we just don't want to, like
Speaker 1: face and feel the feelings around the reality of, you know,
Speaker 1: the thing we're proud of. And yet that moment of
Speaker 1: disconnection with our kid like really lives in their body
Speaker 1: and it just kind of free floats around. It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that really didn't feel good, and nobody talk to me
Speaker 1: about that. And I always feel like when kids are
Speaker 1: left to their own devices to cope with hard things,
Speaker 1: they generally rely on self doubt and self blame, which
Speaker 1: are not thinking why I want to wire into our
Speaker 1: kids for adulthood. They're not terribly adaptive later on, right,
Speaker 1: And so I always think with repair number one, we
Speaker 1: have to repair with ourselves first, like you can't repair
Speaker 1: with kid before. In some ways, you find your feet
Speaker 1: on the ground, or you're sitting in a bathroom, or
Speaker 1: you're you know, sitting I don't know, on a chair,
Speaker 1: and essentially you do find your internal goodness under your
Speaker 1: latest not so great behavior. I was a good parent
Speaker 1: having a hard time, not a bad parent doing bad things,
Speaker 1: like we have to do that, or I always think
Speaker 1: I always like put my hand on my heart and
Speaker 1: kind of remind myself, like I'm not proud of that behavior,
Speaker 1: like I feel guilty, and like that guilt it's not
Speaker 1: a sign of horrible person. That guilt is actually telling
Speaker 1: me I acted not in line with my values, and
Speaker 1: I actually have an opportunity to now to like act
Speaker 1: in like with my values. So and then when you
Speaker 1: repair with your kid, which is some version of going
Speaker 1: back and saying that wasn't your fault, and you don't
Speaker 1: make me yell, you don't make me say mean things.
Speaker 1: You could also say it depends on situation your a kid, like, hey,
Speaker 1: the thing that you did, look, we both know that
Speaker 1: wasn't okay, and we need to work on that and
Speaker 1: we will. And that doesn't justify the thing I said,
Speaker 1: or that doesn't right. That's what's really key, and some
Speaker 1: version of I'm sorry and I'm going to work on that.
Speaker 1: And if you're really you know, I want to go
Speaker 1: for bonus points like that probably felt scary to you,
Speaker 1: and I'm open to hearing more about what that was
Speaker 1: like and what you're doing. Then in that moment is
Speaker 1: you're literally like reopening that file that stored in their
Speaker 1: body with by fear and you know abandonment, you know worry,
Speaker 1: and you know their own spiral of kind of dark feelings,
Speaker 1: and you really reopen it. And I always think it's
Speaker 1: like the most hopeful thing, like you get to change
Speaker 1: the ending to that story, like you actually do, and
Speaker 1: you get to add all the elements that were missing,
Speaker 1: and that that really makes a huge difference for a
Speaker 1: kid and for an adult and for your relationship. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: So you have children, I have children? Yeah, ten, seven
Speaker 1: and five. Okay, so your three children. Did you find
Speaker 1: you more interested in this topic after having children? Where
Speaker 1: were you ten years ago? Yeah? One hundred percent. You know,
Speaker 1: I've always found I've always fund people interesting, and I've
Speaker 1: always found systems interesting. Like I've always wanted to learn
Speaker 1: more about someone who I'm seeing in private practice or
Speaker 1: someone I was working with. I always want to know
Speaker 1: more about their system. What was their system grown up?
Speaker 1: What's the system there? And now small families the larger systems.
Speaker 1: And so then when I had a kid, obviously I
Speaker 1: became more interested in parenting. And then I think, honestly
Speaker 1: it was when I had my second, my daughter, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, like, different kids really do need different things,
Speaker 1: are like oh, and parents would say to me like,
Speaker 1: I'm doing the thing you said, but my kid is
Speaker 1: reacting in this way. And I would kind of think
Speaker 1: in the back of my head like, oh, I wonder
Speaker 1: if you're like doing it right, because when I did
Speaker 1: that with my son, you know, like hey responds and
Speaker 1: kind and I had my daughter and I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: Like now I've lived it. And so I think my
Speaker 1: three kids, how different they are like, and yet also
Speaker 1: seeing how like when you do figure out a way
Speaker 1: of connecting to them, how powerful it is. It's always
Speaker 1: like how powerful it is for yourself because I feel
Speaker 1: like I've grown so many parts of myself and learned
Speaker 1: so much through trying to figure out my kids that
Speaker 1: it's hard, but definitely just the whole topic of parenting
Speaker 1: has become that much more compelling. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Who
Speaker 1: are some other people who are some of your contemporaries
Speaker 1: that you really admire that you'd also recommend people listen to.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're very complimentary to your own approach. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I feel like I get so much inspiration from
Speaker 1: internal family systems. I love their books. I love Astara Parell,
Speaker 1: like everything she says I find so interesting. I love
Speaker 1: prior guests on this podcast amazing. I love listening to
Speaker 1: Glennon Doyle and Abby Wombacks. You know, I think Abby
Speaker 1: wom Back there's so much in the good inside approach
Speaker 1: that's really about, again, like embodying your authority and setting
Speaker 1: boundaries and creating more space for yourself and feeling more
Speaker 1: embodied than that in some way says quote nothing to
Speaker 1: do with parenting, but really has everything to do with parenting,
Speaker 1: because it enables you to show up in a sturdier way.
Speaker 1: And so those people come to mind. I love nedri
Speaker 1: to wob I love the way, oh I love her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love the way she thinks another prior giest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so those are those the people that immediately come to mind. Cool.
Speaker 1: You have ridden that you would rather prioritize resilience so
Speaker 1: or happiness for kids? Why is that an important prioritization
Speaker 1: for parents? So doesn't everyone want their child to be happy, right,
Speaker 1: Everyone says that, don't just want your child to be happy?
Speaker 1: And I would say that to me, I was like no,
Speaker 1: And again we had this thing like, oh, you want
Speaker 1: your kids to be unhappy? Like, no, definitely not unhappy either.
Speaker 1: But there's a lot between that and the things we
Speaker 1: also the things we really want for our kids. I
Speaker 1: think it's always a good time to pause and just
Speaker 1: seel like how much of ourselves is in there versus
Speaker 1: how much of our kid is in there? I I
Speaker 1: kind of want my kids to, I don't know, to
Speaker 1: find what they want for themselves, you know, not to
Speaker 1: say I can't jump in and be controlling at times,
Speaker 1: of course I can. So why do I think resilience
Speaker 1: is a better goal or more like empowering goal than happiness. Well,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of these thoughts came from the
Speaker 1: work it did with adults for so many years, where
Speaker 1: I got a lot of these same clients, like they'd
Speaker 1: be these incredibly high achieving people on the outside, you know,
Speaker 1: the college, the partnership, the job, that, the everything, and
Speaker 1: like they came in feeling like so empty and so anxious.
Speaker 1: And there were a lot of stories of the ways
Speaker 1: in which not all of them, but a bunch of
Speaker 1: them their childhoods were like quote perfect, Like I don't
Speaker 1: even know, like I'm supposed to talk about childhood therapy,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know. My parents were always there for me, right,
Speaker 1: And when we looked into it more, it seemed like
Speaker 1: there was a lot of stories of like their childhoods
Speaker 1: being really focused on like maximizing happiness at all time.
Speaker 1: So like I didn't make the soccer team, so I,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, move to this town and
Speaker 1: said to make that soccer team. You know, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I remember any get invited this lumber party, and I
Speaker 1: remember my parents, you know, did the slumber party for me, right,
Speaker 1: And like I'm the surface none of those things individually.
Speaker 1: It's not like I'm like, oh, I would never I
Speaker 1: would just leave my kid in a puddle of despair.
Speaker 1: Like again, there's a lot between extremes, but there were
Speaker 1: these patterns in which anytime a child was upset, they
Speaker 1: were rescued from that and like brought into happy. Like
Speaker 1: I always think about this idea of this feelings bench,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like kids are walking around and like
Speaker 1: sitting on different benches, which are different experiences and feelings.
Speaker 1: So one may people left out bench, and I always
Speaker 1: think as a parent sitting on that bench with them
Speaker 1: being like, hey, I'm here, You're not alone. You know
Speaker 1: this is probably a bench you'll be on again. Or
Speaker 1: are they like pulling them off and bringing them to
Speaker 1: the happiness bench in the sun, And they're are two
Speaker 1: really different interventions, And you think about the patterns, Like
Speaker 1: what I don't want for my kids when they're twenty
Speaker 1: five is to be scared of their own distress is
Speaker 1: when something and never happens that's upsetting, that brings them jealousy,
Speaker 1: that brings them sadness, that brings them, frustration, that brings
Speaker 1: them in security. I want them to say, to some degree,
Speaker 1: like I've felt this feeling before, Like I know I'm
Speaker 1: going to get through it. There's a reason I'm feeling it.
Speaker 1: There's probably even information for me in this feeling. I'm
Speaker 1: not scared of this feeling. I don't have to run
Speaker 1: away from this feeling, which is also a really hard
Speaker 1: thing to do, given feelings live in your body and
Speaker 1: so resilience to me comes from the ability to like
Speaker 1: sit on any of those benches. And I also think
Speaker 1: the biggest paradox is when we help kids over their
Speaker 1: childhoods build resilience, happiness naturally finds those people because there's
Speaker 1: just more space for happy, whereas when we focus only
Speaker 1: on happiness, happiness is actually really hard to find because
Speaker 1: anytime a distress light flickers on, it's like kind of
Speaker 1: panic and running away. Yes. Yeah, And let me say also,
Speaker 1: like I'm not a master at this, like if my
Speaker 1: husband was here listening, like you know, Becky, you've over
Speaker 1: time tolerating distress sometimes, you know, like you can like
Speaker 1: look for the happy. And I'm always like, yeah, why
Speaker 1: do you think I write about it all the time,
Speaker 1: Like this is like my own therapy, so like I
Speaker 1: think it's really easy to think like for other people,
Speaker 1: like oh, Becky has this thing figured out? Or if
Speaker 1: people say this to me all the time, like I
Speaker 1: describe a scenario and they're like, oh, my goodness, do
Speaker 1: you have a camera inside my home? Like how did
Speaker 1: you know what's happening in my home? And I was
Speaker 1: like that would be a very complicated thing, Like it's
Speaker 1: interesting to me that you just didn't assume that probably
Speaker 1: that scenario like happened in my home, right, like my
Speaker 1: home is probably like your home. So all of these things,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just very much a student of them too,
Speaker 1: that's all. Oh, of course, of course, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Shame is a big one, A big emotion that a
Speaker 1: lot of people run away from, or that prevents people
Speaker 1: from approaching at least. So how can people detect and
Speaker 1: reduce shame parents as well as children that are feeling
Speaker 1: shameful for a behavior they did? It works both directions, right,
Speaker 1: one hundred percent shame. I'm sure you know. We could
Speaker 1: talk a question. It's a big ever, it's a big
Speaker 1: talk with Yeah, I know. You know. The way I
Speaker 1: think about shame, which I don't think is like anything
Speaker 1: novel is. I think like the active experience of shame,
Speaker 1: especially as adults, is like a feeling of like a
Speaker 1: perceived break in connection, a perceived break and attachment, and
Speaker 1: shame gets built over time for kids when they go
Speaker 1: through experiences where they believe entire like kind of parts
Speaker 1: of them are non conducive with attachment, kind of like
Speaker 1: this thing, this part of me, who just did this thing,
Speaker 1: who's feeling this way, Nobody wants to be around him,
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to be around her. She gets distance, not connection.
Speaker 1: She gets punishment, not curiosity. She gets you know, the
Speaker 1: dark eyes, not the warm eyes. And then again, because
Speaker 1: kids are always trying to adapt, they're like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I better put that part of a way, because my
Speaker 1: goal is to maximize attachment. That's how I get all
Speaker 1: my needs met. I'm dependent on my parents for a
Speaker 1: very long time, and so I better put that part
Speaker 1: like deep down in a closet, like I really really
Speaker 1: better put that part away. And yet I think it
Speaker 1: goes back to some of the other things we're talking about.
Speaker 1: I think differentiating between identity and behavior is so important because,
Speaker 1: for example, let's say I don't know, Let's say I'm
Speaker 1: with my kid at a birthday party and they're really
Speaker 1: really hesitant. It seems like, you know, they're the only
Speaker 1: one who's not joining right, what's wrong with you? You're
Speaker 1: embarrassing me? You're embarrassing me? Or later he's like you
Speaker 1: were you made it, You're so dramatic, like you know
Speaker 1: all those kids, you know, all those kids, like why
Speaker 1: do you have to be the only one right? Why
Speaker 1: is that shame inducing? Because what a kid really learns
Speaker 1: is when I'm nervous and hesitant, I'm not lovable, I'm
Speaker 1: not connectable, I'm not attachable, right versus, And this is
Speaker 1: and again, like the paradox here is so interesting because
Speaker 1: then the part that was nervous and hesitant has now
Speaker 1: shame layered on. Well, shamering is on like an animal
Speaker 1: freeze defense date. Right, So now, if you think about changing, like,
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone would say an important ingredient, and
Speaker 1: change is like frozenness, like getting frozen inte thing like
Speaker 1: is inherently oppositional to change, right, So versus, Let's say
Speaker 1: I'm at the party and I say to my kid, like,
Speaker 1: something about this party doesn't feel great to you, Like
Speaker 1: I believe you you'll figure it out, or I'm sure
Speaker 1: you'll join when you want something like that, or if
Speaker 1: it's chronic problem, maybe I talk about it with my
Speaker 1: kid in advance. Hey, what's it going to be like
Speaker 1: to be at the parties? We have a lot of people.
Speaker 1: You want to look at a picture of what the
Speaker 1: dynastics facility is going to look like, so you kind
Speaker 1: of can picture it in an advance because I know
Speaker 1: new things can feel really tricky for me too. I'm
Speaker 1: just making this up. A kid is learning big lessons
Speaker 1: there whether allowed to feel hesitant? Can I trust that feeling?
Speaker 1: Can I talk to my parent about being hesitant? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, when I have a sixteen year old and
Speaker 1: she's invited, I don't know, to some party and she's
Speaker 1: feeling a little hesitant, the on your needs, I think
Speaker 1: all of us will be like, yes, we want you
Speaker 1: to feel that way, and come talk to me about it, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: yes we do. And so I think the big thing
Speaker 1: about I think there's a couple of things about shame.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that really helps us
Speaker 1: in terms of like not bringing on shame our kid
Speaker 1: is differentiating like a feeling from a behavior. So as
Speaker 1: long as I look at my kid is the only
Speaker 1: one not joining, okay, then like she's the kid who
Speaker 1: doesn't join, I'm more likely to bring on shame when
Speaker 1: I look at my kid as what, oh, she's probably
Speaker 1: feeling hesitant. Okay, Like I can understand hesitation, and like
Speaker 1: we all feel hesitation. Sometimes it happens to be inconvenient
Speaker 1: for me because I'd rather be talking to my friends.
Speaker 1: But I can understand that, and I think differentiating feeling
Speaker 1: from behavior helps us then come up with that most
Speaker 1: generous interpretation and helps us lead with connection instead of
Speaker 1: disconnection and shame. Yeah, yeah, I clearly can see that.
Speaker 1: What about the value of self care? Well, how can
Speaker 1: burn out, exhausted parents make more self care routines in
Speaker 1: their life? I mean, self care is so important, so important,
Speaker 1: and I think, how do we create self care routines?
Speaker 1: But also like what really constitutes self care for me? Right?
Speaker 1: Because I think we're fed a lot of ideas of
Speaker 1: like what self care is. And I really mean this,
Speaker 1: Like I love a paticure. I can't I don't get them,
Speaker 1: you know, for many reasons. This is often I would like,
Speaker 1: but I love that. But for me, that's not like
Speaker 1: that's one version of self care. But to me, the
Speaker 1: self care that I see so many parents needing more
Speaker 1: of is like self care that makes you feel empowered
Speaker 1: and like capable and like maybe excited or creative. Right,
Speaker 1: And so I think for anyone listening when they're thinking
Speaker 1: about self care, just to be like, there's not one
Speaker 1: right way to do this. There's probably many different buckets.
Speaker 1: So if one is like being taken care of, Okay,
Speaker 1: I like feeling taken care of that feels like self care,
Speaker 1: Maybe a pedicure falls into that bucket. Okay, but what
Speaker 1: are their buckets? You know do I need? Because what
Speaker 1: feelings do I have a hard time accessing and those
Speaker 1: are probably the things I need to build. So what
Speaker 1: helps me feel empowered? What helps me feel not alone?
Speaker 1: And then in terms of like my number one tip
Speaker 1: to build a self care routine is I think we
Speaker 1: have this fantasy sometimes as parents that like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: say to my partner my kids, like, I can't put
Speaker 1: you down to bed tonight, going out to dinner with
Speaker 1: my friends something like that, and my husband's gonna say
Speaker 1: to me, you know what, you deserve that, And my
Speaker 1: kids are gonna say, you deserve that. Mom. We're gonna all,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, clap as you walk out
Speaker 1: the door. We're so proud of you for taking care
Speaker 1: of ourselves yourself. Now, it just like doesn't happen. Often
Speaker 1: a partner will say like, oh, I really have to
Speaker 1: put the kids down, and you're gonna be like, well,
Speaker 1: you're not putting me down. And I think to really
Speaker 1: engage in self care, we have to tolerate the distress
Speaker 1: of prioritizing ourselves, and especially for women who most of
Speaker 1: us were raised to like gaze out and take care
Speaker 1: of others, you know, way way, way, way way before
Speaker 1: gazing in and taking care of ourselves. It's a totally
Speaker 1: new circuit to like really take care of yourself. And
Speaker 1: I say, we can't wait for the time that like
Speaker 1: everything lines up perfectly and to start thinking again. Two
Speaker 1: things are true. It's not like, oh, I feel guilty
Speaker 1: so I can't go out to dinner. It's I can
Speaker 1: go out to dinner and I can tolerate that guilty feeling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of these patterns were maybe taught
Speaker 1: by their parents. So what are some you know, or
Speaker 1: maybe the kind of environments they grew up in really
Speaker 1: influenced the way that they raise their own children. What
Speaker 1: if a parent wants to be a cycle breaker and
Speaker 1: that's a phrasey you use and they're like, you know
Speaker 1: what this these generational patterns they stop right now? How
Speaker 1: can they have the courage to do that? I think
Speaker 1: that's the that takes a lot of courage. So what
Speaker 1: I would say about being a cycle breaker is, first
Speaker 1: of all, cycle breaking doesn't mean doing a one eighty right, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone who does a one eighty in
Speaker 1: anything except you know, like so you know, someone was saying, like, my,
Speaker 1: you know, my childhood is just full of being yelled
Speaker 1: at and sent to my room. And I want to
Speaker 1: be the parent like calm and connected because I actually
Speaker 1: want to have a relationship with my kids when they
Speaker 1: get older. Right, I'm like, that's amazing. I remember this
Speaker 1: my Brier practice, the gil I yelled at my kids,
Speaker 1: and I was like, you think you're going to go
Speaker 1: from a childhood where you were yelled at all the
Speaker 1: time to your kids having a childhood where they're never
Speaker 1: yelled at. Like I wasn't yelled at that much as
Speaker 1: a kid. I still yell at my kids. And I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that like with a badge of honor, but
Speaker 1: it's just practical. So if you're a parent who's identifying
Speaker 1: as a cycle breaker, I would even imagine like the
Speaker 1: starting point and remind yourself not only like do I
Speaker 1: not need to go, I like it's not realistic to
Speaker 1: do a complete shift on that, And so to set
Speaker 1: a goal that's still so momentous and so huge, but
Speaker 1: also allows yourself to like feel good about this huge effort. Right,
Speaker 1: So it might be a setting a goal first of
Speaker 1: like I promise myself this week that I'm gonna repair
Speaker 1: with my kids when I do yell. That's still a
Speaker 1: big difference, because what I know is most people who
Speaker 1: were yelled at all the time there wasn't any repair.
Speaker 1: That's a big difference. Okay, My goal the next week
Speaker 1: is I would like to find one time this week
Speaker 1: when I feel that urge to scream and I recognize
Speaker 1: it early and I say to my kids, hey, this
Speaker 1: is one of those times we talked about where I
Speaker 1: need a moment. I'm gonna go take some deep breaths
Speaker 1: in my room and I'll be back once once, once,
Speaker 1: one time. Right. That is cycle breaking right there. Wow. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much doctor Becky for being in my
Speaker 1: podcast today. Good luck with your book which is called
Speaker 1: Good Inside, And for everyone listening, check out her amazing
Speaker 1: Instagram page. Doctor Becky at Good Inside is the name
Speaker 1: of your Instagram handle. I just googled it. That's such
Speaker 1: a pleasure and honor to have you on the Psychology
Speaker 1: Podcast today. Thank you so much. I really really enjoyed
Speaker 1: this conversation. Thanks for listening to this episode of the
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way,
Speaker 1: to something you heard. I encourage you to join in
Speaker 1: the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. We're on
Speaker 1: our YouTube page, the Psychology Podcast. We also put up
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Speaker 1: next time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.