1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hi Katie, Hi there, Brian. We should warn listeners that 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: our podcast today should probably get an R rating. If 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: you have young children in the room, you may want 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: to have them listen to something else. Our guest today 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: is an expert on relationships and sex. In fact, it's 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: something of a living legend on those topics. For over 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: twenty five years, Dan Savage has dished out sex advice, 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: love advice in his syndicated Savage Love column. He's also 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: written several books about his own family and relationships, dance writing, 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: and well. Dan himself actually is, by turns withering, empathetic, hilarious, 11 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: brutally honest, a little dirty, and always always fearless. And 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: for Dan, the personal is definitely political. He often writes 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: about abortion law, contraception, gay rights, HIV and AIDS, and 14 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: he's no stranger to taking on politicians as well, most 15 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: notably Rick Santorum. And you're gonna have to google that 16 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: one because I really am not going to describe it. 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: We covered a lot of ground in this conversation, from 18 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: Dan's childhood to how he became a columnist, his love 19 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: affair with Ann Landers, which is fascinating, his It Gets 20 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: Better campaign, how he feels about Donald Trump and by 21 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: the way, not very kindly, all sorts of things in between. 22 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: So here's our conversation with Dan Savage. With all due 23 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: respect to the Dosac case. Man, I think you're the 24 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: most interesting man in the world. You have done so 25 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: many things. Just reading about you, I think, what hasn't 26 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: Dan Savage done. You've written books, you've hosted podcasts, you've 27 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: led advocacy campaigns. We're going to get into all that 28 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: in a moment, but first we want to talk about 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: your long running advice column called Savage Love. You've been 30 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: doing it for twenty five years. When your column first 31 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: came out, it was a very new phenomenon, wasn't it 32 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: a gay man giving frank sexual and relationship advice to 33 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: mostly straight people. Yeah. At first, the idea, you know, 34 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: the concept originally was it just gonna be a joke, 35 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: and I was gonna do it for six months or 36 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: a year, and I was going to treat the straight people, 37 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: uh and straight sex with the same contempt and revulsion 38 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: that hetersexual straight lady advice comments had always treated gay 39 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: people and gay sex with, you know, an landers who 40 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: I loved back in the day, the Playboy advisor. These 41 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: people would occasionally take a gay question and you know, 42 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: hold it with tongs and wrinkled their noses, but then 43 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: give a little advice. Uh. And I thought I should 44 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: do that to straight people and see how they liked it. 45 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: And it turned out that they really liked it. Why 46 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: they liked like, how gross is straight sex kind? It 47 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: was the first year of it was I can't believe 48 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: you would do such a disgusting thing. Your poor mother 49 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: must be heartbroken. Here's some advice that's so funny. And 50 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: it took off. And I think it was because, you know, 51 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: straight people have never been treated this way before. And 52 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: it was, you know, humorous if you were straight, to 53 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: be treated as if you were powerless, which you weren't. 54 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: Um and the advice was I guess good because the 55 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: letters started just pouring in, and this kind of joke 56 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: advice column under my feet within the first twelve months 57 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: became an actual advice column. I'm sure the only person 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: who could turn you away from being gay was a lands. Now, 59 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: what up with that? Dan? How did you become obsessed 60 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: with of all people and landers? Instead of by the 61 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: way her sister Abby, I grew up in a newspaper house. 62 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: My grandfather worked for the Chicago Daily News in Chicago Star, 63 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: both now closed unfortunately, And so we got all the 64 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: papers when I was a kid living in my grandparents 65 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: house of my family, um MultiGen household, and so really 66 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: the comics and the advice columns were the entry point 67 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: for young you know, for the kids who looked at 68 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: the newspapers were spread out over the dining room table. Uh. 69 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: And so I just started reading and Landers, and we 70 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: were liberals and Dems, So we got the Suntimes after 71 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: a while stopped gtting the Tribune, which is where Abby was. 72 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: So I grew up reading and who you know, grew 73 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: and learned over the years and you know, changed her 74 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: position on uh, gay people and a right to exist 75 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: and why we exist. But what I was reading in 76 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: Anne when I was, you know, eight eleven twelve wasn't 77 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: very positive. But that's you know, she was over generation 78 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: and we can't judge her through the light of right 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: this minute. We have to look at her in the 80 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: context of them, and she was compassionate in ways that 81 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: other UH folks in the culture at that point weren't. 82 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: In fact, you bought her desk at an auction. Is 83 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: that right? I did? Uh? I got her daughter, Margot 84 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: Howard's her daughter, one of the original dear Prudences. It's late. 85 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: So she wrote an advice came for many years. And 86 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: I called her when I heard about the auction of 87 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: a Landers effects and got her permission because I didn't 88 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: want it to be spun in the media as if 89 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: I was being somehow disrespectful to the memory of a Landers. 90 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: You're doing something that might upset her daughter. Uh. And 91 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: got Margot's permission. And Margot and I are now friends 92 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: and we chat all the time. And so I write 93 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: my very dirty, very different sex advice column at the 94 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: same desk. Grand Landers wrote her column for forty five years. 95 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: We want to give our listeners a feel for your 96 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: column and your podcast. So let's go over some of 97 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: the signature savage love acronyms and catchphrases. Rapid fire, You ready, 98 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: I'm ready? Are your listeners ready? I don't know, I 99 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: don't know. I hope. So what's the Campsite rule? The 100 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: Campsite rule is that if there's a large age difference 101 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: or experience gap between two people who are hooking up 102 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: or or friends with benefits or even dating that it 103 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: is on the onus is on the older or more 104 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: experienced partner to leave the younger or less experienced partner 105 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: in better shape than you found them, which is the 106 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: rule for when you camp. You should always leave your 107 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: campsite in better shape than you found it, and we 108 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: should all and it should apply generally like you should 109 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: always leave people that you've dated or been with, hopefully 110 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: in better shape than you found them. But in this context, 111 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: you know the older younger. It means uh, you know, 112 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: no sexually transmitted infections, no one planned pregnancies, no needless pain, 113 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: no promises that you know you can't fulfill uh and 114 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: that you help this person learn and grow while they're 115 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: with you, and you don't leave them in worse shape 116 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: than you found them. The camp say rule, what about 117 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: g G good giving in game? That's what we should 118 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: all be for our sex partners, UM good in bed. 119 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: You know you want to acquire some skills. A human 120 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: means a lot more complicated than a violin, and no 121 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: one can play the violin the first time they pick 122 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: it up. You gotta practice UH giving, which is sometimes 123 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: you give pleasure UH in your indulgent without an expectation 124 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: of an immediate return, that everything doesn't have to be 125 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: instantly and equally reciprocity in the moment that sometimes you give. 126 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be good for everybody. Well hopefully 127 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: it's not. You want it to be traumatic for anybody 128 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: or or unpleasant for anybody. But sometimes you are giving 129 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: UM and not getting at that moment and that's okay. 130 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: And game means sort of up for anything within reason. 131 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: That sex should be an adventure that you two are 132 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 1: on together. UM, and you know it's like good improv. 133 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: You never say no in improv. And you want to, 134 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, be the person for your partner, particularly if 135 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: it's a sexually exclusive relationship, Be the person who makes 136 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: things happen for your partner. Be the person they come to, UH, 137 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: who's going to welcome their fantasies or interests or kinson 138 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: and celebrate them and make that stuff happen dot dot 139 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: dot within reason. You know, being G G G good. 140 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: Giving a game doesn't mean you do anything that your 141 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: partner asks or wants and no, but he gets everything 142 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: they want out of a relationship. UM. And sometimes you pay. 143 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: It's another thing that to call them the price of 144 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: admission is kind of grows out of G G G. 145 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: And the price of admission is, you know, the price 146 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: you pay to be with somebody. You know, if you're 147 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: desperately into sex act X and that's not something that 148 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: your partner will ever do, then the price of admission 149 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: that you pay to be with that person as you 150 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: never get to do that. And what about c posts 151 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: that stands for cheating piece of shit? Uh? And do 152 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: you have a lot of people call you dan or 153 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: write to you and and they are writing about their 154 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: c pos Mostly I get letters. When people use the 155 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: acronym in a letter to me, they're using it to 156 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: describe themselves. Really they you know, they say that I 157 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: feel terrible, I'm a CPO s I'm a cheating piece 158 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: of ship uh. And talking about non monogamy is not 159 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: to tear down people who value monogamy, who want monogamy, 160 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: who want a monogamous commitment, creating a universe where people 161 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: who don't want monogamy and can't honor a monogamous commitment 162 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: can go make commitments to people who also don't want 163 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 1: monogamy and don't want a monogamous commitments. That makes people 164 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: who end up in monogamous relationships. That makes those monogamous 165 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: relationships safer and stronger, just like not having gay men 166 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: mary straight women makes marriage stronger. Not having people who 167 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: can't do monogamy making commitments to people who demand monogamy 168 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: makes those monogamous commitments that are ultimately made stronger if 169 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: the non monogamous and monogamous sort themselves. You're an early 170 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: podcast adopter, and I'm curious, what is the podcast offer 171 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: you that the column doesn't. Uh, you can really get 172 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: into the nuance in a podcast the columns um and 173 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: you really have to boil everything down to the nut. 174 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: And on a podcast you can. You can digress, and 175 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: I can get people on the phone and instead of 176 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: it just being here's the letter, here's my response, we 177 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: can have a conversation. I can bring in guest experts 178 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: and and interview them at great length about an issue 179 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: or a problem. Um. It just allows for more. Although now, 180 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: because my podcasts have been around for so long, when 181 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: I was podcasting so early, people like, oh my god, 182 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 1: you were an early adopter of this new format. You 183 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: must be a you know, a genius and you had 184 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: such foresight, And it's like no, no, no, no, there 185 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: were I call them the tech savvy at risk youth. 186 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: There were people that I worked with who are young 187 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: and tech savvy, who are like you were going to 188 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: start doing this podcast whether you like it or not, 189 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: and they kind of forced me to do it. I 190 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: was very resistant. What are most of the calls about 191 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: so situational ethics? You know? Twenty six years ago when 192 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: I started writing Savage Love, half the questions were, you know, 193 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: what's about plug? Or where's the swingers club in my area? 194 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: Two words I never thought i'd hear on this badcast 195 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: and now, and this may be helpful to you, Katie. Now, 196 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: butt Plug has a wiki page, so you don't have 197 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: to write into me to ask what it is after 198 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: you overheard someone talking about one of the bus and 199 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: swingers clubs all have their own website, so you don't 200 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,959 Speaker 1: need sort of specialized magazines with you know, referrals to 201 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: p O boxes to find a swing club and Dallas, 202 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: just google Dallas and swingers clubs and they pop right up. 203 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: So all the questions I get now with the podcast 204 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: and the column are I did this, they did that, 205 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: I'm mad about this, they're mad about that. Who's right, 206 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: who's wrong? And you have to kind of way in 207 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: on these situational ethics, that the situation of ethics of 208 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: this problem in this conflict. And it's a lot harder 209 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: now to write an advice column than it used to 210 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: be because you don't get I used to call them 211 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: definitions and referrals. I don't get defined this, what is this? 212 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: And I don't get referral questions anymore because the Internet 213 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: does that. All I get are this is what happened. 214 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: We need a ruling from Solomon about how we're going 215 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: to cut this baby in half or whether we should. 216 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: When when did you realize you were good at giving 217 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: people advice? I mean you were a little bit of 218 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: a of an outcast in in high school. You were 219 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: the only out gay person in your class. As I 220 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: understand it, and so did you did you sort of 221 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: always feel a little bit separated from the back. It's 222 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: just the way women. I think, I think more about 223 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: gender because it impacts them more severely, you know, gender 224 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: based discrimination, and people of color think more about race. 225 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: I think when you're gay, you think more about sex 226 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: because it's what makes you different. It sets you apart 227 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: and complicates your life, and you have to be a 228 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: little bit more thoughtful about it, and I realized early 229 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: in life, and I was rare for gay out of 230 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 1: my generation. I'm fifty two years old. It was rare 231 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: for kids to be coming out in high school who 232 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: are my age. But I did come out in high 233 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: school and instantly became kind of the go to guy 234 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: for my straight friends who had relationship problems or sex questions. UM, 235 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: because I think they just intuitive that I was thinking 236 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: more about these things than they were, because I had 237 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: to think more about these things. Uh. And I think 238 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: that's true for a lot of gay people. We talked 239 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: a lot of gay men, lesbians, uh, even very young 240 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: uh and recently out or out in college, and they'll 241 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: tell you that they're the person that their friends confide 242 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: in about their sex and relationship problems. I think because 243 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, they figure, you gave yourself permission not to 244 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: be gay, but to be out, and maybe you'll give 245 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: them permission to be whoever they actually are and help 246 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: them let go of normal, which plagues a lot of people. 247 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: You know. I was. I was struck that you came 248 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: of age as a gay guy in a conservative Catholic 249 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: household and during the height or the depths of the 250 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: aids epidemics. I'm just curious how those two experiences shaped 251 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: the sort of journalist and columnist you later became. Well, 252 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: I got a Catholic education, educated by Jesuits, and you know, 253 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: my parents were evangelical Catholics before that was a hip 254 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: thing to be, which seems to be now. Um. And 255 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: my mother would joke later, you know, after she came 256 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: around on the gay thing, which she did pretty quickly 257 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: after I came out, that the values that they had 258 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: imparted to us, part of sort of their interpretation of 259 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: the Catholic tradition was one of the reasons that I 260 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: was out to them. And so it kind of blew 261 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: back and bit them on the ass because they were 262 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: very much about, you know, the importance of being honest 263 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: and loving the people in your life and being truthful, uh, 264 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: and not being deceitful. And yet I felt myself, you know, 265 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: when I was young and Catholic and I thought about 266 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 1: being a priest. I thought about, I could never come out. 267 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: It would kill my parents. Um. I thought about, you know, 268 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: I'll need to find a woman that I can lie 269 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: to for fifty years and marry her. And then that 270 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: was just so in conflict with what I had been 271 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: taught about right and wrong uh, in Sunday School, at 272 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: my Catholic grade school, at my Catholic high school, to 273 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: to lie to someone all their life like that, to 274 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: mislead someone, and it just forced me to to be out. 275 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: It just felt like it grew out of my sort 276 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: of education. Even though my faith didn't survive my coming 277 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: out and I actually came out before the AIDS epidemic. 278 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: I came out in and then uh into that buzz 279 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: saw UH and watched a lot of my friends die 280 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: in their mid twenties and early thirties, and that was 281 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: really rough, and there was you know, there were moments 282 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: there at the beginning of the HIV AIDS epidemic where 283 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: I watched people that I knew to be gay go 284 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,359 Speaker 1: back in the closet um or or renounced their homosexuality 285 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: and who were already infected and then died anyway, Uh, 286 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: and it it, you know, the AIDS epidemic forced us 287 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: to start telling the truth. Um. People were outed because 288 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: they you know, suddenly had Carposi sarcoma UM. And it 289 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: also forced us to tell the truth about about how 290 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: we were having sex. You know, it used to be. 291 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: You know, before HIV AIDS, there was the sex that 292 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: everybody agreed that everybody ought to be having, even though 293 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: everybody kind of knew that everybody wasn't having necessarily that 294 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: kind of sex. And what AIDS force was a conversation 295 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: about the sex people were actually having, not the sex 296 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: that we all agreed people ought to have, which was 297 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: the kind of sex that most advice columnists specialized in, 298 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: like what you ought to be doing, And it was 299 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: different about savage love. When I started, it really did 300 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: grow out of my experience in the HIV AIDS epidemic, 301 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: um the crisis, the worst years of it was let's 302 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: talk about what we're actually doing, because that's where the 303 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: risk comes in. As as I'm listening to Dan, I'm 304 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: thinking how ironic it is that in some ways the 305 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: AIDS epidemic accelerated the acceptance and tolerance in it, certainly 306 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: in some quarters of gay people in general. Absolutely, you know, 307 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: before the AIDS epidemic, we were just you know, gay 308 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: people started coming out on mass after the Stonewall riots 309 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: in nine and there was this kind of you know, 310 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: bakan knowledge, youthful, exuberant adolescence of the movement where people 311 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: were just so thrilled to be out and open and 312 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: able to live openly, love openly, and it was just 313 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of a party. And that was the you know, 314 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: the hedonism that people like Jerry Fallwell pointed to um 315 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: and condemned. And then the AIDS epidemics slammed into the 316 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: community and you suddenly saw that, you know, we suffered 317 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: and died, and we suffered and died and loved and 318 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: took care of each other at a time when even 319 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: our own families refused to take care of us. Plus 320 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: the activism, I think that that grew out of the 321 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: AIDS epidemic. I think made a lot more people aware 322 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: and exposed to the fact that there were a lot 323 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: of gay people in the world, right, and it put 324 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: put them front and center in some ways, obviously under 325 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: terrible circumstances, but gave them much greater attention. And if 326 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: people don't have awareness, obviously it's hard for them to 327 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: go from awareness to acceptance. Right. It was a terrible 328 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: circumstance in some ways. To borrow a phrase, also our 329 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: finest hour, because we didn't collapse. You know, people forget 330 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: what was being said that I remember it all very distinctly, 331 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, William F. Buckley saying that gay men should 332 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 1: be tattooed on the arm and the buttocks. You had 333 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: people talking about mass quarantining of openly gay people on islands. 334 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: Um Pat Buchanan floated that in columns that ran in 335 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: the Washington Post. It was a perilous moment, and we 336 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: did feel like everything, that what little visibility and little 337 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: security that we enjoyed, was going to be ripped away 338 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: from us. And instead of uh, you know, I mentioned 339 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: you know, a few people I knew who went back 340 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: into the closet, that's not the reaction that uh, the 341 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of gay people had. People who were not 342 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: out yet came out and came out fighting, and people 343 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: who are already out refused to see an inch of 344 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: the ground that we had secured for ourselves. And it 345 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: really was a war, and it was a war that 346 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: we won. It's interesting. Jerry Folwell, whom you mentioned earlier 347 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: and other key figures on the religious right, basically said 348 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: this was punishment for the sin of being gay. Why 349 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: do you think you were able to win that battle 350 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: in the public consciousness against all of these figures who 351 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, had a lot more history and maybe credibility 352 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: among millions of Americans than sort of unknown gay activists, 353 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: maybe because it was such a disgusting, despicable comment and observation, 354 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: Maybe that they had that going for We did have 355 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: that going for us. We also had our secret weapon, 356 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: which is that gay people are randomly distributed through the population, 357 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: that we are born into straight families, and that was 358 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: we were embedded in the heart of straight America. Even 359 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: though many of us have been rejected by our families 360 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 1: when we came out and we're exiled from them, we 361 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: were still a part of them. And when people got sick, 362 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: when people were dying, Uh, when lives are online, it 363 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: really like pulled people up short. And some families failed 364 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: their queer kids who are suffering their gay relatives or something. 365 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: But some families came around, and eventually more and more 366 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: of our families came around. I'm old enough to remember 367 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: when p flag parents and friends of lesbians and gays 368 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: would come up the street at the Pride parade. Everybody 369 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: lost their minds. You know, I'm gonna cry talking about 370 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: it even now. Uh, people standing a gay amend of 371 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: lesbians standing on the side of the street watching the preade. 372 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: Go by would see these people, other gays and lesbians 373 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: Marsham Street with their parents, their parents who loved them 374 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: and were willing to love them publicly in March and 375 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: the Pride parade, and everybody would cry when p flag 376 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: came down the street because almost no one had that 377 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: kind of support from their parents, from their families. It 378 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: was so rare. I bet that was incredibly moving. And 379 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, I just spent the weekend I was in 380 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 1: the pines in Fire Islands, so as you can imagine, 381 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: I was for this show. So my my husband's brother 382 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: Tom is gay and he's been with his partner Andy 383 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: for twenty plus years, so we always go to see 384 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: them for a weekend in the summer at their beautiful 385 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: home and Fire Island. And I was just thinking, as 386 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: I was watching all these gay couples, how much things 387 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: have changed? Dan, And I'm just I think in terms 388 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: of social transformations, if you will, or progress, societal progress, 389 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: I'm sure it doesn't feel that way for a lot 390 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: of gay people. I remember my dad talking who I 391 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: think was slightly homophobic, uh, you know, talking about some 392 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,959 Speaker 1: gay person who worked in his office, and kind of 393 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,959 Speaker 1: in hushed tones, and you know, I think and not 394 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: flattering and not a flattering way. And my father was 395 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: the most fair minded person I know, but this was 396 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: a blind spot for him. But I think culturally it 397 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: was so people were so closeted, and then you go 398 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: to Fire Island and you see everyone just out and 399 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: about and it's just it's just amazing to me how 400 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: much things have changed. Amazing. Yeah, oh absolutely. And you 401 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: know the P flag point P flag with Marchtown Street 402 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: thirty four years ago everyone would sob Now P flag 403 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: marches down the streets, priparate. We're all happy to see 404 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: P flag, But most of us at the parade, most 405 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: of the people there have families that love and support 406 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: them now, so it's not as impact. It's not as 407 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: emotionally devastating to see people with parents who love them, 408 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: because you probably have parents who love you, uh now, 409 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: and there's there has been such a change, you know. 410 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: I talk frequently about the right wing myth and the 411 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: left wing myth when it comes to progress, and the 412 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: right wing myth is we can risk no progress if 413 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: we give women the vote. Society will collapse, family will 414 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: fall apart if we uh you know, pass the civil 415 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: rights Act or the Voting Rights Act. Everything's gonna end 416 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 1: if we'd let gay people serve opening in the military. 417 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: The military is going to collapse. If we get people 418 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: get married, family is going to collapse. It's always, you know, 419 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: do this, there will be a catastrohe And that's the 420 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: right wing myth, and they're proven wrong again and again 421 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: and again and again. There their dire predictions never come 422 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: to pass. The left wing myth is there's been no progress, 423 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: that we're as racist, as homophobic, as anti semitic, as 424 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: transphobic a culture as we have ever been, and that's 425 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: demonstrably false. We are not free from racism or sexism, 426 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: or homophobia, or transphobia or anti semitism, but we've made 427 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: tremendous progress. And on the left we shouldn't. We shouldn't 428 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: propagate a myth. It's in some ways as damaging as 429 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: that right wing myth that we can risk no progress 430 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: because we want to be able to point to the 431 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: progress we've made and be able to say, look, we've 432 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: done this, We've taken all of these steps, and it 433 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: hasn't just you know, the sky hasn't fallen and the 434 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: country hasn't fallen, and anything, we've gotten better and stronger, uh, 435 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: and more just as a society for having taken these steps. 436 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: So the left should always be pointing to the progress 437 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 1: that we've made to argue for more progress, to refute 438 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: the right wing myth that we can risk no progress. 439 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: And what about the nature versus nurture argument? You know, 440 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: it's funny because I thought it was pretty established that 441 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: it was nature that people are born gay. But then 442 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: other people seem to come out and say, well, it 443 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: is a choice. I think Cynthia Nixon not that long ago, 444 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: didn't she create some controversy about that and it was 445 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: a choice. Yeah, And I'm just curious about your take 446 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: on that. Well, it shouldn't matter. The people who say 447 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: it's a choice are arguing that gay people, queer people 448 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: shouldn't have any civil rights, be allowed to marry, be 449 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: allowed to adopt, because they don't have to exist. Um, well, 450 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: Mormons don't have to exist. Faith is a choice. That's 451 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: why there are street preachers and proselytizers and Jehovah's witnesses 452 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: knocking on my door this morning. Religion is a choice. 453 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: It's also a protected class, as it should be. Um, 454 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to discriminate against someone based on 455 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: their chosen faith. So there's just this dishonesty at the 456 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: heart of the way so many people of faith, it's 457 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: usually religious people who make this choice argument about sexual orientation. 458 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: They're saying that because this thing is a choice, you 459 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: deserve no protections. Um. I experienced my homosexuality as not 460 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: a choice at all. Uh. It shouldn't matter whether it 461 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: was a voice or not. But certainly for me felt born. 462 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: And there is a body of sort of evidence. No, 463 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: there's no one gay gene out there, but there are 464 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: genetic factors at play. You know. The most famous thing 465 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: is the twins studies that show that if an identical 466 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: twin is gay, Uh, the other twin is likelier to 467 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: be gay, but not automatically gay. So that there are 468 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: it seemed to be a multicausal thing. But the way, 469 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, most gay people don't, you know, we dread 470 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: being gay. When I was thirteen years old and realizing 471 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: that I was gay, it was a catastrophe. It wasn't 472 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: a choice I made to destroy my life, to you know, 473 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: up end my relationship with my parents, to estrange myself 474 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: from my siblings and the faith that I had been 475 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: raised in to live every day in terror of being 476 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: caught or found out or scrutinized in such a way 477 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: that I might be outed, and then to police my 478 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: behavior and try to act straight, even had sex with 479 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: girls like I desperately wanted to be straight. I desperately 480 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: wanted to be anything other than gay. That was not 481 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: a choice I made to p saw my dad, which 482 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: is the argument that a lot of people who don't 483 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: know what they're talking about when they talk about homosexuality 484 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: like to make. Can I say something about Jerry Fallwell, 485 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: who came up a couple of times, Um my dad. 486 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: Uh was for Anita Bryant was for Jerry Follows, kind 487 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: of a conservative guy. He said things that were anti 488 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: gay in front of me when I was ten and 489 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: eight that I remembered that just pierced me like kind 490 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: of new then. And the argument that the Fallwells and 491 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 1: Brian's used to make was that, Uh, gay people were 492 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: a threat to the family because we didn't get married, 493 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: because we didn't have children, because we didn't settle down. 494 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: We lived for the moment and for pleasure and the 495 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: next do orgasm, and that was why we were terrible. 496 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: Well that's the only way that we were allowed to live. 497 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: We couldn't get married, we couldn't have children. Then once 498 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: gay people were freer, there were gay people who wanted 499 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: to get married. There were gay people who wanted to 500 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: have children and and did marry and did have children 501 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: and do and continue to just as there are straight 502 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: people who don't want to get married, don't want to 503 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: have kids, and don't that. There was nothing gay about 504 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: the gay lifestyle that fall well condemned, and nothing straight 505 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: about the straight lifestyle. Uh. In the end, there was 506 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: something straight about it. And what we see now is 507 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: kind of this great cross pollnization where you know, gay 508 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: people live as you know, the quote unquote gay lifestyle 509 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: until they settled down and then live the straight lifestyle, 510 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: and straight people kind of do the same. Like straight 511 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: people borrowed a lot from gay culture and just renamed it. Uh. 512 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: You know, we used to can I use a swear word? Yeah, 513 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: We used to talk about funck buddies, and now straight 514 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: people talk about friends with benefits. We used to talk 515 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: about tricking, and then straight people called that hooking up. 516 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: And there's so much in like young straight life and 517 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: culture and young people, young adults straight people's second life. 518 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: That's just gay stuff renamed and reappropriated. So we still 519 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: marriage from you, You still fun buddies from us, and 520 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: I think we're even Yeah, me too, I think we're 521 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: definitely even. That. That said, Dan, you know you are 522 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: a major proponent of this concept called monogamish, which is 523 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: a sort of a modified open marriage concept where you 524 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: you don't believe that for a lot of people, lifelong 525 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: monogamy is realistic, and so if both partners can consent, 526 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,239 Speaker 1: you believe that there there can be extramarital relationships. Can 527 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: you talk about that both in concept and also in 528 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 1: practice in your own life? Well, I actually coined the 529 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: term monogamist to describe my own, uh life with my husband. Um, 530 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: we're not monogamous. When you're a gay couple, particularly gay 531 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: couple who are parents, and you're saying you're not monogamous, 532 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: people picture uh, you know a degree of promiscuity or 533 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: recklessness that just isn't us, um, And so you know, 534 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: we were more monogamous than not you. We're mostly overwhelmingly 535 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: having sex with each other and occasionally a very special 536 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: guest star. So I started saying, like the three of 537 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: you are just like you go out off on your own. 538 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm getting a little nervous here. Both. The question I 539 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: put to Stephen Colbert once that made him have to 540 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: stop his show was, you know, he said, I asked 541 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: me if I cheated on my husband, And I asked 542 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: him if it was cheating if I'm cheating at one 543 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: end of a guy while my husband cheats at the 544 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: other end of the same guy at the same time. 545 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: Are picturing that everybody out there in podcast and we'll 546 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: see if that makes Yes, Yeah, we got that. You're 547 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: painting quite a picture. But do you also do you 548 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: also when you say you're monoga mish, Dan, would you 549 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: also have a sexual encounter with a with a guy 550 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: and that your husband doesn't know? And he's okay with that? 551 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: Because I would not be jiggy with that, Dan, if 552 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: my husband wanted to do that. What we do, and 553 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: what I think all people who are engaged in ethical 554 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: nonmonogamy is we do what we both agree is okay. 555 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: You know, when I talk about monogamysh though in the 556 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: context of the column or the concept that I that 557 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: are promligated like it's been embraced by a lot of 558 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: people who are monogamous. But what they you use monogamous 559 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: to mean is, of course we're still attracted to other people. 560 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: You know, we're told a lie about monogamy and about 561 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: long term relationships and love and commitment when we're kids, 562 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: which is you know, one day you'll fall in love 563 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: and you won't want to have sex with anybody else, 564 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: and you will be monogamous. And the truth is, you 565 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: grow up, you'll make a monogamous commitment. You'll still want 566 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: to have sex with other people, but you're not going 567 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: to because you've made a monogamous commitment and you should 568 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: honor that commitment. Um. If two people are policing each 569 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: other in a monogamous relationship for evidence of what both 570 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: should just assume to be true, that's exhausting and it 571 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: generates a lot of conflict, like, oh, you looked at 572 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: that person. You're attracted your personal trainer. Um, you checked 573 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: out the baristas, But well, of course your wife's attracted 574 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: to a personal trainer. No one in the whole long 575 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: history of personal trainers has ever hired a personal trainer 576 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: they didn't want to fuck. It's the question with monogamy 577 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: is whether or not I don't want to do that 578 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: with my personal trainer names Larissa and I. You're the 579 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: exception that proves Earle um By and large broadly speaking generally, 580 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: um So, of course you're both attracted to other people, 581 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: and if you're making a monogamous commitment, then you don't 582 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: sleep with other people. But if why bust each other 583 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: and give each other grief for the fact that you 584 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: will sometimes perceive your partner to be attracted to someone else. 585 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: Of course they're gonna be attracted to someone else. If 586 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: you can diffuse that in a in a monogamous relationship 587 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: that source of conflict, you're gonna have a more stable 588 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: monogamous relationship. I deal with it by just giving my 589 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: husband a lot of free passes, knowing that he's not 590 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: going to use the free passes, but acknowledging that if 591 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: I gave free passes out, those people would be a 592 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: part of the free pass system. Yeah, but your free 593 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: processor a little bit unrealistic. It's like, oh, yeah, john 594 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: if you could convince Gwyneth paltr to sleep with you, 595 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: go right ahead. Hey, I'm not going to tell Johnny 596 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: you said that, Brian, But here's I was just gonna 597 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: ask Dan. You know, you and your husband adopted a son. 598 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people say that it's important 599 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: to be monogamous for the sake of the kid and 600 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: a stable family unit. Is your son aware of the 601 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: fact that you're monogamish, not monogamous, And what effect, if any, 602 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: do you think that would have on him? Well, he 603 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: doesn't like to hear about his parents sex life anymore 604 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: than anyone else wants to hear about their parents sex lives. Uh. 605 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: You know, he's read some of the stuff that I've written. 606 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: He knows, and we have generally acknowledged it without how 607 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: old into details. He's nineteen years old, he's an adult. 608 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: Uh So I often say to people, ask the questions, 609 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: if your parents were swingers, would you want them to 610 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: tell you? Probably not, because there's two different kinds of monogamy. 611 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: There's social monogamy and sexual monogamy. And there are people 612 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: who are socially monogamous, perceived to be monogamous, who are 613 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: not actually monogamous. And I think Terry and I would 614 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: be socially monogamous if I hadn't written what I had written, 615 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: even I hadn't told these truths, and I felt like 616 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: we should tell to de stigmatize and demystify, Uh, non 617 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: monogamous relationships. Um, So we don't go into it with 618 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: great detail with our kid, nor does he wish to 619 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: discuss it with us in any great detail. Uh. Nor 620 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: would I want to talk with my parents about their 621 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: sex life in any great detail. And if they were not, 622 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: all wouldn want to hear about that from them either. 623 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: I remember when my parents used to lock their door, 624 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: and I would be like gross, because I you know, 625 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: every once in a while, my dad would lock the 626 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: door and I'd be like that going on in there. Anyway, 627 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick break, 628 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: and when we come back, Dan, we want to hear 629 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: more about your podcast and some of the weird questions 630 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: or interesting questions you get about Donald Trump and his 631 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: so called commitment to l g b t Q issues 632 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: that he talked about on the campaign trail, and your 633 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: campaign with your husband, the It Gets Better campaign. So 634 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about all those things right after this, 635 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: and now back to our conversation with Dan Savage. Let's 636 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: talk about what Donald Trump has done visa v. Gay rights, 637 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: and of course the recent transgender band which caught so 638 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: many people in the Pentagon by surprise. Um, were you 639 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: hopeful that he would be more supportive and what has 640 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: your reaction been to some of the moves that he 641 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: has made. I wasn't hopeful. Um uh. Donald Trump crawled 642 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: into bed with Mike Pence. That was his first big 643 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 1: act as the nominee, was picking Mike Pence, who is 644 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: one of the most rapidly anti gay Republican politicians in 645 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: the country. Mike penncey redirected funds from HIV prevention education 646 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: to X gay therapies, including shock treatments. Rather than educating 647 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: you so you don't contract HIV, We're going to electrocute 648 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: the gay out of you. That's Mike Pence's platform on 649 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: gay rights. And Trump picked Pence to be his running mate. Uh. 650 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:55,479 Speaker 1: Trump allowed um, Tony what's his face from Family Research 651 00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: Council Perkins from the SPLC certified anti gay hate group 652 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: Family Research Council to basically right the Republican platform again. Um. 653 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: You know. Trump touched a Pride flag at a rally, 654 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: and a bunch of right wing gay people, a handful 655 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: that exists out there, pointed to that as evidence that 656 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: he would be the most pro gay president ever and 657 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 1: then appoints Neil Gorcus to the Supreme Court, who's already 658 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: uh issued anti gay rulings when he was involved in 659 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: lower courts, And now the transpan which is looks like 660 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: it's going to go into force, And when you have 661 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: the Justice Department reversing an Obama air interpretation of an 662 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: anti gender discrimination statue as covering sexual orientation, and the 663 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: DJ now weighing in and say oh, no, no no, no, 664 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: no it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, and inserting itself 665 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: into a lawsuit that it did not need to insert 666 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: itself into into a litigation it wasn't involved in, like 667 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: aggressively going after gay rights. So yeah, I didn't look 668 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: at Trump and think, oh, this is going to be 669 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: a sunny new era of Republican pro gay anything. It 670 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: was more of the same. Having said that, though he 671 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: did tweet out in two thousand and sixteen, thank you 672 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 1: to the LGBT community. I will fight for you while 673 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: Hillary brings in more people who that will he should 674 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: have said, who will threaten your freedoms and beliefs, And 675 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: even at the r n C he said, as your president, 676 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: I will do everything in my power to protect our 677 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: LGBT citizens. From the violence and oppression of a hateful 678 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: foreign ideology. Yeah, the keyword there is foreign ideology. We're 679 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: not going to get thrown off towers by ISIS in 680 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: the United States while Donald Trump is president, but he 681 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: is not going to protect us from a domestic hateful ideology. 682 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: He's going to empower domestic haters of LGBT people as 683 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: he has. Yeah, he was trying to make the political 684 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: argument that he's tougher on ISIS, or he was tougher 685 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: on ISIS than Hillary and therefore gay people should vote 686 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: for him. And you know, I don't think that was 687 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: a very successful political pitch, but it came across his 688 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: hypocrisy as he made this decision to ban trans people 689 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: from the military without even consulting the generals who would 690 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: have to oversee and implement that policy. The scariest thing 691 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 1: about that announcement he made on Twitter about banning trans 692 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: people from military without consulting his generals was that that 693 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: was three tweets, and the first tweet ended without the 694 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: announcement about what the hell he was talking about, And 695 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: there were nine minutes between that first tweet and the 696 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: second tweet where the Pentagon thought that the Trump might 697 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: be announcing an attack on North Korea. And you know 698 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: the North Koreans are monitoring Trump's Twitter feed, so they 699 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: might have thought the same thing. We have a dangerous 700 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 1: lunatic in the office of the president right now and 701 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: paralleling us all not just where people. How many trans 702 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: people are actually in the military. I've seen the numbers 703 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: really very wildly. They do not all people who are 704 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,919 Speaker 1: trans or out. So we're going to have perhaps witch 705 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: hunts like they used to do for closeted people in 706 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: the military, for closet gaze and lesbians and bifox in 707 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: the military. But there are reportedly thousands although like you, 708 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 1: of the numbers I've seen very widely, but reportedly thousands 709 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: of trans people already serving in the military without incident, 710 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: without it being a problem. The Pentagon supports allowing trans 711 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: people to serve openly and continuing to serve openly in 712 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: the military. So you you started a project called I 713 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,799 Speaker 1: T m f A. Do you want to say what 714 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: that stands for? It stands for, Well, first, we have 715 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: to know that. Uh. In my advice column, I frequently 716 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: use the acronym d T m f A because so 717 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: many people right in and the advice they need is 718 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: to dump the motherfucker already. They're like in a terrible 719 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: relationship and they're asking for help, and the only help 720 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: they need is the push to dump. And so sometimes 721 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: I use that shorthand to save space in my column. 722 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: D T. M F A. And you're trying to give 723 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 1: the nation similar advice exactly. It stands for impeach the 724 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: motherfucker already. And we've sold thousands and thousands of T shirts, mugs, 725 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: very tasteful of pel pins that you can wear on 726 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: a tasteful suit if you're going on the cable news 727 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 1: program to talk about the President UH and other merch 728 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: and donated whole bunch of money to Plan Parenthood, the 729 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: International Refugee Assistance Project, and the a C l U. 730 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: All proceeds go to those three organizations. And you've raised 731 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: over a hundred thousand dollars. Is that we sold a 732 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: lot more than a hundred thousand dollars. That's what we 733 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: were able to donate after buying the merch, shipping the merch, 734 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: paying the taxes, a hundred thousand dollars to those organizations. 735 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: We're getting ready to make another big donation to those 736 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: organizations based on sales since that donation. Um, And what's 737 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: fun about I t m f A is, as you know, 738 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: you wear the T shirt I t m f A 739 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: and people look at you or the red hat that 740 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: has I t m f A on it instead of 741 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: make America Great Again, and people say what is I 742 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,399 Speaker 1: t m f A stand for? And then you get 743 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: to tell them, And at that moment it's like it's 744 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: like the sorting hat in Harry Powder. You're gonna know 745 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,919 Speaker 1: whether you're talking to a good person or a bad 746 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: person in my opinion, because they lie there, laugh and 747 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: think that's hilarious and want the T shirt themselves, or 748 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: they'll luf off and on. It's interesting you just said 749 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,319 Speaker 1: that because there are a lot of people, a few 750 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: million in fact, who voted for Barack Obama in and 751 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: then voted for Donald Trump in. Are you saying that 752 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: they're all bad people, that the sixty two million people 753 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: who voted for Donald Trump were all bad people? Or 754 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: is there some shift that needs to happen in the 755 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: society where the Democrats or commentators like you need to 756 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: make a stronger case to those people about why and 757 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: how Donald Trump is bad for them. Yes, I agree 758 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: that They're not all in the basket of deplorables. I 759 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: think there definitely are some who are in the basket 760 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: of deplorables. That statement Hilary made that was just so 761 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: problematic for her, in such a burden for her, is 762 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: really kind of true. You know, in politics, you can't 763 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: win over everyone. You have to work at the margins. 764 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,280 Speaker 1: And there are people who support for Trump was marginal 765 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,359 Speaker 1: and conditional. You've seen his poll numbers dropping. You've seen 766 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people even in the base, the GOP 767 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: base and his base, regret their support for him, including 768 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 1: one of his highest profile queer supporters, who's Peter Teal, 769 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley investor billionaire uh now thinks that the 770 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: Trump administration is incompetent in a disaster. Thinks now what 771 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: we all could see coming plainly before he was elected. So, yeah, 772 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: you want to work on reaching those folks. And you 773 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: know the message I think the Democrats need to send 774 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,919 Speaker 1: us that the Republicans are lying to you about cause 775 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: and effect. They're pointing to the fact that people of 776 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 1: color it's not legal to discriminate against them anymore. That 777 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, women are empowered in the workforce, and gender 778 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,439 Speaker 1: discrimination is wrong that like there's all these openly gay 779 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: people around, and you know, there's more people causing more Mexicans, 780 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: there's more immigrants, and they say, look at these things, 781 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 1: this is why you don't have a living wage job, 782 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: and actually those things, you know, there's correlation perhaps there, 783 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: but there's not causation. You have a living wage job 784 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: because we've destroyed the union movement, because we've shredded the 785 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: social safety net, because we don't invest in schools and 786 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: communities and transportation and housing the way we once did. 787 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: That's that's why it's tougher for you. That's why college 788 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: is primitively expensive for your kids now. It's not because 789 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,440 Speaker 1: gay people are open. That didn't cause that to happen. 790 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: It's not because there are more Mexicans now than there 791 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: were thirty forty years ago. What the problem now is 792 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: that there's not a union. The problem now is that 793 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,439 Speaker 1: we've shredded that social safety net, that we've done away 794 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: with living wage jobs, but that we don't that the 795 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: rich don't pay their fair share, and then we invest 796 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: that money into programs that benefit anyone. That's the cause 797 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: of your misery, not these those people, whether you're talking 798 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,240 Speaker 1: about people of color or queer people or trans people 799 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: or whoever the scapegoat of the moment is that they're 800 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: pointing to. You know, I have to point out, though, 801 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting, Dan, that you launched this 802 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: I T M F A campaign during George W. Bush's 803 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: presidency and which and he, the president Bush must seem 804 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 1: like Nelson Mandela at this point in time to you, 805 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: you know, in retrospect, you know, Bush launched you know, 806 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: a disastrous war and tank the economy. Uh. We got 807 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: out of the Bush era alive, Uh, most of us, 808 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 1: not all of us. And he also got reelected in 809 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: part on an attack on gay people in gay marriage 810 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: in particulars. That's true. So now we can look back 811 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: on the Bush air thinking, well, it didn't kill us. 812 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: Right now in the middle of the you know, out 813 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: the beginning of the Trump hopefully not era, hopefully the 814 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: Trump twenty four months, Uh, he might get us all killed. 815 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: And it's a little bit you know, you want to 816 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: like return to the president who you know, in retrospect 817 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: didn't get us all killed, but might have at the 818 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: time Gondness all killed. How realistic do you think it 819 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,359 Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump will be impeached. If Donald Trump 820 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: or Hillary Clinton, he would have been impeached twenty three 821 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: times already. H If Chelsea Clinton was filling in for 822 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: Hillary uh in an official capacity in any way, there 823 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: would be no end of screaming and yelling, complaining, um, 824 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: the corruption, hypocrisy, the double standards UH are are appalling. 825 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: So you know, realistically, he's probably not going to get 826 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: impeached as long as Paul Ryan is sitting there and 827 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: a Speaker of the House. I'm hopeful that the Dems 828 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 1: can take at least the House and hopefully the House 829 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: in the Senate. Uh in. But if the Democrats do 830 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,000 Speaker 1: take the House in, do you really want Donald Trump 831 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: to be impeached? Given what you just said about Mike Pence? 832 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 1: People ask that question a lot, like, oh my god. 833 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: But if we impeach him, then it's Pence. And my 834 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 1: feeling is as awful as I think Pence is. Pence 835 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,240 Speaker 1: oscillates in a predictable band of Republican awfulness, whereas Trump, 836 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: you don't know what's going to happen next, and it's 837 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 1: a bit of an existential terror living with that man 838 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,879 Speaker 1: in the Oval office. You're highly critical, obviously of Republicans. 839 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: But you also get annoyed by liberal Democrats. What do 840 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 1: you think they get wrong? And why are they why 841 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,439 Speaker 1: do they seem to be struggling, you know, and having 842 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: a bit of an identity crisis. Democrats are just so 843 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: bad at messaging. You know, the word goes down from 844 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: some you know, the Republican death star, that we're going 845 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: to call these partial birth abortions, that we're gonna call 846 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,359 Speaker 1: them death taxes, and we're gonna talk about a death 847 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: panel and or fake news, and then every Republican marches 848 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,799 Speaker 1: in lockstep, every Republican as behind whatever the message is, 849 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:08,720 Speaker 1: until even liberals can't think of uh, that abortion procedure 850 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: without thinking partial birth abortion, or can't think of estate 851 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 1: taxes without thinking death taxes, and Democrats can't seem to 852 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: uh make that same sort of effort. Democrats can't seem 853 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: to unite, for instance. And this isn't my idea of 854 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: suggested years ago by a Republican operative who walked away 855 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: from the right wing movement because he was so disgusted 856 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: by what he had witnessed and his name escapes me, 857 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: because marijuana is legally here where I live, and he 858 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: he said, why are you calling them entitlements. We don't 859 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 1: like people who are entitled. No one's entitled to anything, right, 860 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: that's the American myth. You have to make it happen 861 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: for yourself. What they are is and what you should 862 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,760 Speaker 1: be calling them are earned benefits, Social Security, medicare earned benefits. 863 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 1: You paid in. You earned this, not you're entitled to it. 864 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: And this has been floating around now for like a 865 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: dozen years, this advice. And yet every time you see 866 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: a Democrat on television talking about Social Security, it's entitlement, entitlement, entitlement, entitlement. 867 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: Even though that's it's right wing rhetoric to call it 868 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: an entitlement, it undermines social security. Every time a Democrat 869 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: lets the word entitlement fall out of their mounds and 870 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 1: you see it on I think single pair is not 871 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: a term that Democrats should embrace. And Democrats are just 872 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 1: terrible messaging. So what should it be? Universal healthcare? Everyone 873 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: is pro universe, everyone's pro healthcare. When you hear single pair, 874 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,240 Speaker 1: And what the what the ours will do when already 875 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: are doing, is they'll say to an individual voter, you 876 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: know who they mean when they say a single pair, 877 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: they mean you you're going to be paying for their 878 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: healthcare for those people. So they really need sort of 879 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: new branding, don't they. They need to hire a consultant 880 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: to come up with better terminology. I think he's talking 881 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,880 Speaker 1: about kind of like a Frank Lence for the left. 882 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: Frank was a guest on this show, and he's of 883 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 1: course famous for coming up with words and catch phrases 884 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: that Republicans can use to defend and promote their ideas, 885 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,920 Speaker 1: and the Dems desperately need more. And I think there's 886 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: an example in gay marriage when it comes to messaging. Um. 887 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: You know, even advocates of of same sex marriage, advocates 888 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: of marriage equality like me and other folks who you know, 889 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: pushed the movement, Mary bon Otto and Evan Wolfson and 890 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: Andrew Sullivan a lot. Everyone was using gay marriage, gay marriage, 891 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: and then there was this shift on a dime one 892 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: day where everyone started using marriage equality because gay marriage 893 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: put gay first gay for a lot of straight people, 894 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: who are the people we are trying to convince is 895 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: a negative. It conjures up negative mental images of frankly, 896 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: of gay sex, gay marriage. It's like gay sex marriage, 897 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,920 Speaker 1: this is butt sucker marriage. And that made people uncomfortable 898 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: because not everyone is for gay or that's okay with 899 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,640 Speaker 1: gay sex. And then marriage equality, everyone's for marriage, everyone's 900 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: for equality, universal health care not single payer, because everyone's 901 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,320 Speaker 1: for the universe and everyone's for health. That's so interesting, 902 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,720 Speaker 1: isn't it? How much that changed the perception and ergo 903 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: the progression of of gay marriage or marriage equality, right, 904 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: and that happened a dime where everyone started using marriage quality. 905 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: Why twelve years after uh this, I think kind of 906 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: seminal op ed was written about. Stop calling them entitlements, 907 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,799 Speaker 1: call them earned benefits. Our Democrats still going on CNN 908 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 1: and MSNBC sometimes even Fox and saying and having the 909 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 1: word entitlement come out of their mouths. It's political malpractice 910 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: at this point, speaking of Fox, does your dad still 911 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: watch Fox News only twenty four hours a day so 912 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 1: he's limited himself. That must be a fun dinner table conversation. 913 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: I mean, because you do. It's it's amazing to me. 914 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: You watch the different networks and it's like a parallel universe, 915 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:43,279 Speaker 1: it is. You get a completely different perspective given who 916 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: you're watching right now. Do you have a hard time 917 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,440 Speaker 1: even discussing things with him? Yeah, we don't talk about politics. 918 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,280 Speaker 1: We can't we we we don't have the same language, 919 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 1: we don't live in the same universe. And you know, 920 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,400 Speaker 1: my dad, like I think a lot of people exist 921 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,839 Speaker 1: in kind of hermetically sealed right in universe. Although he 922 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: claims he's an independent, and yet he only votes for 923 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: Republicans and U except says, fact, a lot of the 924 00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: crap that is shoveled out out of the television screen 925 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 1: every day by Fox News and Hannity and all the 926 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: lying liars over there, how can we ever come together 927 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: if people are getting their worldview from two such disparate places. 928 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're probably overblowing the number of 929 00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: people who watch cable news, which is not that many. 930 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: You know. I think sometimes if you watch it, you 931 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,960 Speaker 1: feel like everybody is. But it seems to me that 932 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:39,320 Speaker 1: it's it's only I think, exacerbating this divide in the country. 933 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,399 Speaker 1: It is. And but but we're never going to bring 934 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: everybody together. There was never a moment where we were 935 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: were all together, um and there never will be. You know, 936 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 1: what you want to do is as symbol a majority, 937 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: and sometimes that means looking at the people you can't 938 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,120 Speaker 1: persuade and not not trying to persuade the unpersuadable, is 939 00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 1: not not expending that effort. Uh. And to not fast 940 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: effort on those who cannot be persuaded, you have to 941 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: first be able to identify accurately those people who cannot 942 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: be persuaded, and identify accurately those people who can be moved. 943 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: And maybe the people you cited earlier who voted for 944 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,560 Speaker 1: Obama eight years ago or four years ago and voted 945 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,560 Speaker 1: for Trump this year, that those are the people that 946 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: Dems should be really digging into and figuring out how 947 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: to speak to and how to what language and what 948 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,880 Speaker 1: sort of words and phrases that best encapsulate and communicate 949 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:34,279 Speaker 1: Democratic policies which are better for those people, uh, will 950 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:40,080 Speaker 1: work and to bring them around. But the hardcore Donald 951 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: Trump can do no wrong. Dear leader Dan, you were 952 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 1: introduced to many Americans through the It Gets Better project, 953 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: which you started in with your husband, and the idea 954 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,480 Speaker 1: was to have adult submit videos assuring gay teenagers that 955 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 1: they can go on to you know, have good lives 956 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: even after being bullied as teens or feeling bad about 957 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: themselves for being gay. How did how did this idea 958 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: come about? Well, there was this kid in Indiana named 959 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: Billy Lucas who killed himself. Uh and he it's a 960 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,239 Speaker 1: it's a horrible story, but you know, he was very 961 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: brutally bullied all through middle school in high school, never 962 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: came out to anybody, may not have been gay, but 963 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: was perceived to be gay. And after he died, a 964 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: Facebook memorial page was created for him by his family. 965 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,839 Speaker 1: Were the same kids who had been bullying him uh 966 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: in school went They went to that page to say 967 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: they were glad he was dead and to call him 968 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 1: faggot one last time in front of his grieving parents. 969 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: And I wrote about that, and I was just so furious, 970 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: as we're all the commenters except one who wrote a 971 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,280 Speaker 1: comment on my blog on the thing I wrote about 972 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: Billy's death and that Facebook page where she said I 973 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: wished I had known you, Billy, and being able to 974 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,279 Speaker 1: tell you it makes me cry. I've been able to 975 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: tell you that things get better. Rest in peace. And 976 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,479 Speaker 1: that really leapt out at me, because things do get better, 977 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,399 Speaker 1: often on the personal level, on the macro level, for 978 00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,839 Speaker 1: the queer community, things have gotten much better, and we 979 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,000 Speaker 1: need to be able to share that with kids. And 980 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,719 Speaker 1: I just was thinking about things get better. And you know, 981 00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,920 Speaker 1: particularly the kids who have parents would never allow them 982 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,839 Speaker 1: to talk to a queer adult or go to an 983 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,120 Speaker 1: LGBT youth support group or join the g s A 984 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,959 Speaker 1: in their school. Those kids need to hear from queer 985 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,400 Speaker 1: adults about how it gets better, um and how to 986 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,560 Speaker 1: make it better for themselves, what we did to make 987 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 1: it better for ourselves, And we wouldn't get permission to 988 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 1: talk to those kids, right, And it just occurred to 989 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 1: me that, oh, there's the Internet, there's YouTube, there's Twitter 990 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,279 Speaker 1: and Facebook. We don't need permission to talk to those 991 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,120 Speaker 1: kids anymore. That there are queer kids out there who 992 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: can't get to a queer youth support group, but we 993 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,760 Speaker 1: can bring the queer youth support group and the adult 994 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,840 Speaker 1: perspective to them using these new tools. Because when you 995 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: think about you know, people have said to me, you know, 996 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,439 Speaker 1: it's not just gay kids who are bullied, like absolutely true. 997 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: The kid is bullied at school because of his race 998 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 1: or her faith or his class goes home to parents 999 00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: with the same race, faith, class that they can open 1000 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,360 Speaker 1: up to and expect support. A kid who's queer or 1001 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:09,400 Speaker 1: gender nonconforming or gay goes home to parents who aren't queer, 1002 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes disastrously are there. We're the worst bullies in 1003 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:18,160 Speaker 1: their lives are bullying them too, and they have no 1004 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 1: one to turn to. You know, a kid of a 1005 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: kid who's uh, you know, an African American kid goes 1006 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,720 Speaker 1: home to his parents and can talk about what he's encountered, 1007 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: what he's seen. The parents will share with their kid 1008 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,000 Speaker 1: how they navigate living in a society with the plague 1009 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:37,120 Speaker 1: by systemic racism, how you know, how they survive. And 1010 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,719 Speaker 1: the kid who's gay goes home to parents who can't 1011 00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: impart that, who can't share that. Even if the kids 1012 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: openly gay and the parents are supportive, they don't know 1013 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,839 Speaker 1: how to illuminate that path. And what the Gets Better 1014 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,839 Speaker 1: campaign did was it allowed LGBT adults to share what 1015 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,560 Speaker 1: they learned navigating that often all by themselves, um with 1016 00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,920 Speaker 1: queer kids who are just starting out, who are just 1017 00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,240 Speaker 1: figuring out who they are, and also straight people who 1018 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,320 Speaker 1: are were supportive of or are supportive of the community. 1019 00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 1: They participated as well. You had people like Stephen Colbert, 1020 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,720 Speaker 1: for example, in Janet Jackson and all sorts of people, 1021 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,600 Speaker 1: Barack Obama, Barack Obama exactly, and Joe Biden. They all 1022 00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,840 Speaker 1: contributed videos to this effort, which was really, I I imagine, 1023 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:29,000 Speaker 1: also very important. It was important, you know, for my money, Uh, 1024 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,400 Speaker 1: I think the most important videos are the videos by 1025 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: LGBT folks that no one's ever heard of, not celebrities, 1026 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 1: not famous. There was one by a lesbian dairy farmer 1027 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,719 Speaker 1: in Vermont talking about even living in this world community, 1028 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 1: how it got better for her, and how she's loved 1029 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,280 Speaker 1: and accepted by her family and uh and her community, 1030 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,040 Speaker 1: and that's really important. What wasn't great about the videos 1031 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: from straight folks? Uh? You know, as re Kline from 1032 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,319 Speaker 1: Box made a really wonderful it gets Better video was 1033 00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 1: an important message for a lot of young queer kids 1034 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,839 Speaker 1: who are being bullied by their families and by every 1035 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,520 Speaker 1: straight person that they know. Is the message that there 1036 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,600 Speaker 1: are straight people out there in the world who will 1037 00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,239 Speaker 1: love and accept you for who you are. You may 1038 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,759 Speaker 1: not know any of them right now, but they're out there, 1039 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,439 Speaker 1: you know. I hate to end things on a pessimistic note, 1040 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,040 Speaker 1: but I can't help but wonder, which makes me sound 1041 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,080 Speaker 1: very much like Carrie Bradshaw. But with all the things 1042 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,040 Speaker 1: that are going on in the country and some of 1043 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,600 Speaker 1: the things that the Trump administration has done so far. 1044 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: Are you concerned about the strides that have been made 1045 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,920 Speaker 1: and about going backwards and about some of the members 1046 00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: of these communities who are going to really suffer as 1047 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:44,480 Speaker 1: a result. I am, I'm very concerned. But you know, 1048 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,080 Speaker 1: circling back to when we were talking about HIV AIDS, 1049 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,600 Speaker 1: things were dark and things looked really dire, and there 1050 00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,640 Speaker 1: was you know, we've made progress, but then that was 1051 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,480 Speaker 1: halted in some places reversed, uh, and then we got 1052 00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,880 Speaker 1: into the fight and that fight and having to defend 1053 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 1: what we'd already uh secured. Um, that fight made it 1054 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:11,480 Speaker 1: better in the end. That fight wound up creating more 1055 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 1: progress and more forward momentum. So right now there's a 1056 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,440 Speaker 1: fight on and people have to jump in and get engaged. 1057 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,399 Speaker 1: But that's how it gets better because you got out 1058 00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,839 Speaker 1: there and fought. That's how the Act up generation made 1059 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,440 Speaker 1: it better for the generations of where people who have 1060 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,600 Speaker 1: come after by engaging in the fight, by defending ourselves 1061 00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,480 Speaker 1: and fighting for what we know to be right. So 1062 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,880 Speaker 1: this is galvanized the community in a way exactly. You know, 1063 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,760 Speaker 1: the we talked about the transpan and it's being used 1064 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,919 Speaker 1: politically by this Republican administration. George Bush, like Brand said, 1065 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,000 Speaker 1: George Bush too thousand and four helped get reelected by 1066 00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,720 Speaker 1: running anti game marriage initiatives in eleven states that passed 1067 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: in each and every state, and a decade later, we 1068 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: have marriage equality in part, not despite those campaigns, but 1069 00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,560 Speaker 1: because of them, because the anti marriage campaign force us 1070 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,320 Speaker 1: to have an ongoing conversation about marriage rights and about 1071 00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,399 Speaker 1: gay relationships and straight relationships, and about love. And even 1072 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,239 Speaker 1: though we lost those sort of snapshots in time in 1073 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,080 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, we were winning the argument. The 1074 00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,320 Speaker 1: more we had the fight, the more we had the argument, 1075 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,120 Speaker 1: the more the needle moved in the direction of justice 1076 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,319 Speaker 1: and fairness toward us. And we're having that fight now 1077 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:27,840 Speaker 1: about trans rights. You know, their weaponizing anti trans bigotry 1078 00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 1: at this moment. They may win at this moment, but 1079 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,480 Speaker 1: the conversation they're starting and the fight that we are 1080 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,440 Speaker 1: now in is going to move the needle in the 1081 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: direction of progress and justice ultimately and in the end. Well, 1082 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,279 Speaker 1: Dan Savage has been such a pleasure to talk to 1083 00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: you about so many different things. We really appreciate your 1084 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,800 Speaker 1: coming on the podcast, and you know, I look forward 1085 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,640 Speaker 1: to talking to you in the future. It was my pleasure. 1086 00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:55,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. A huge thank you to our 1087 00:56:55,600 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: podcast team are indemfatigable podcast team, our producer Gianna Palmer, 1088 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:05,080 Speaker 1: our production assistant Nor Richie, our audio engineer, Ryan Connor 1089 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,840 Speaker 1: in l A and Shared O'Connell, who mixes the show. Hi, Jared, 1090 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,680 Speaker 1: he's just waiting at me now. Plus Alison Bresnick on 1091 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:19,360 Speaker 1: Keys just kidding, Alison Bresnik on Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, 1092 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,400 Speaker 1: everything social and Emily Beena on snares I mean, who 1093 00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,400 Speaker 1: keeps things moving at Katie Kirk Media, Mark Phillips, By 1094 00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,520 Speaker 1: the way, thank you for writing our terrific theme music. 1095 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,760 Speaker 1: I still think it's extremely catchy. I give it a 1096 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,720 Speaker 1: ninety five for dancing. Katie and I are the executive 1097 00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,440 Speaker 1: producers of this show, and as we keep reminding you, 1098 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,160 Speaker 1: you can email us at comments at currect podcast dot 1099 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,880 Speaker 1: com or you can leave us a voicemail at nine 1100 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,080 Speaker 1: to nine, two to four, four, six, three seven. We 1101 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,600 Speaker 1: really love hearing from our listeners, good, bad, and ugly, 1102 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,480 Speaker 1: well maybe not ugly, but you know, constructive criticism, nice feedback, 1103 00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,200 Speaker 1: all of it. We appreciate it, and we really do 1104 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: make this show free you not for the money, so 1105 00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: thank you for that's for Dave. Sure. If you can't 1106 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: get enough of us, I'm Katie Curic on Twitter and Instagram, 1107 00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,400 Speaker 1: Katie dot Curic on Snapchat. You can find me on 1108 00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:15,600 Speaker 1: Facebook as well. Brian meanwhile, is at Twitter at Goldsmith b. 1109 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,720 Speaker 1: So here's the part where we appeal to the better 1110 00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,120 Speaker 1: angels of your nature, just like Abraham Lincoln. Won't you 1111 00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,080 Speaker 1: please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and subscribe 1112 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,640 Speaker 1: as well. Your support helps make this show possible. So 1113 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: thank you very very much for listening, and we'll talk 1114 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:33,480 Speaker 1: to you next time.