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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

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Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

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Speaker 2: Or shot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: As a heads up, this episode does contain some graphic

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Speaker 1: descriptions of violence, so if you're not into that, let's

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Speaker 1: get this one. Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 1: belief and the abuse of power from two sleepy Jo's

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Speaker 1: who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 4: And I am Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why we're sleepy Joe's guys, It's just

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Speaker 1: because we're sleepy.

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Speaker 4: Sleepy today, Yeah, today.

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Speaker 1: Our guest is Brian heloida forensic psychiatrist an expert on

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Speaker 1: a variety of topics, including atypical group beliefs.

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Speaker 4: That's our shit right there.

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Speaker 1: He's going to talk to us about the phenomenon commonly

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Speaker 1: known as folia do aka shared delusions, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to discuss examples of cases of folia do, including the

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Speaker 1: case that the movie Heavenly Creatures is based on the

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Speaker 1: difference between delusions and weird beliefs, are cult mind control

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Speaker 1: and how these things are transmitted to others.

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Speaker 2: We also talk about whether people are responsible for their beliefs,

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Speaker 2: whether shared delusions weren't the insanity plea in criminal cases,

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Speaker 2: and more and more so.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Megan, yeah, yeah, but the cultiest thing that happened

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Speaker 1: to you this.

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Speaker 2: Week, well, the cultiest thing that happened to me this

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Speaker 2: week happened in my own mind in life.

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Speaker 4: It's me being the cults.

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Speaker 2: And that was just kind of me thinking about a

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Speaker 2: conversation we have in this podcast with Brian about signs.

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Speaker 2: You know, he kind of talked about how that can

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Speaker 2: be a gateway drug.

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Speaker 4: Ooh, it's a sign and it's a sign, and it's

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Speaker 4: a sign.

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Speaker 2: But I do believe in signs, so, you know, just

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Speaker 2: kind of grappling with that with myself.

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Speaker 1: So you see a coincidence, You're talking about a fucking

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Speaker 1: lion and then a lion.

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Speaker 4: Walks by totally what does that make you think? Well,

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Speaker 4: I was kind of.

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Speaker 2: Talking to you about this at one point where it

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Speaker 2: doesn't make me think my purpose has something to do

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Speaker 2: with lions. I don't think the sign ever is giving

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Speaker 2: you directions. It might be leading you a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's just a wink from the universe.

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Speaker 4: You just kind of got really in the matrix for

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Speaker 4: a second.

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Speaker 1: What is the difference between leading you a little bit

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Speaker 1: and guiding you in a direction?

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Speaker 4: Though?

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Speaker 2: Well, in my mind, I was just thinking about how

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Speaker 2: this one time I was trying to move and I

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Speaker 2: couldn't figure out where to go, and I had like

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Speaker 2: a few problems in my life that really needed fixing,

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Speaker 2: and a bunch of my girlfriends were like, we're going

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Speaker 2: to this restaurant tomorrow night, and they just kept saying

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Speaker 2: the name of the restaurant over and over and over

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Speaker 2: and over, and I was like, shut up about it.

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Speaker 2: I've never heard about it.

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Speaker 4: What is this? And then the next.

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Speaker 2: Day I got a message from somebody being like, hey,

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Speaker 2: we got your application on Craigslist.

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Speaker 4: I didn't even remember applying.

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Speaker 2: The houses right across from the restaurant my friends had

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Speaker 2: been to the night before.

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Speaker 4: You should come look at it. And I might have

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Speaker 4: been like I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I don't even remember sending that email, Like, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what these people are talking about.

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Speaker 4: But that might be a coincidence.

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Speaker 2: And so I went there and it turned out to

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Speaker 2: be the house that I moved into, and it turned

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Speaker 2: out solving a lot of the.

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Speaker 4: Problems that I had pretty effortlessly. So something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So naturally, the skeptical Lola side would say something

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Speaker 1: along the lines of, well, we also know that bias

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Speaker 1: is such that once you hear something or see something,

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Speaker 1: once you're primed to then hear or see it more

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Speaker 1: to be more attuned to it when you see your

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Speaker 1: hear it again, whereas you weren't noticing it before. So

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Speaker 1: that can often feel like crazy coincidences when in reality,

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Speaker 1: you just weren't attuned to that thing. And then also,

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Speaker 1: there are so many events occurring all the time, U

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Speaker 1: truly that for them to not be, for there to

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Speaker 1: not be coincidences would be even statistically more insane than

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Speaker 1: for there to be.

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Speaker 2: Can I really quickly tell you the weirdest one that's

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Speaker 2: ever happened? Yes, Okay, I was on a hike with

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Speaker 2: my friend and her husband. He is a engineer and

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Speaker 2: a researcher, and he was telling us about how they

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Speaker 2: were connecting computers to monkey's brains. Okay, so monkey's minds

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Speaker 2: were they were trying to get them to be able

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Speaker 2: to control computers. And we started talking about just the

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Speaker 2: interconnectedness of our minds and technology and energy and all

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Speaker 2: of these things. And he's very low to ask and

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Speaker 2: him my wife, my wife, His wife and I are wife.

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Speaker 4: Or very we're very into the universe and such, so

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Speaker 4: we have this my wife.

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Speaker 2: We had this very intense conversation, and you know, I

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Speaker 2: felt like a little bit like that buzzy feeling when

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Speaker 2: you're really present, and I don't know, I just felt weird.

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Speaker 2: And then when we got back to my house, I

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Speaker 2: checked my email and I am dB had sent me

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Speaker 2: all these emails meant for her, his wife. And he

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Speaker 2: sat there fur the rest of the night just staring

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Speaker 2: out the window, trying to fucking figure out how this happened.

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Speaker 2: And by the end of the night he was like,

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Speaker 2: I still don't believe in it, but something matrix like

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Speaker 2: we hit the matrix today?

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Speaker 1: Can I pause a theory based on a Twitter thread

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Speaker 1: I recently read.

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Speaker 4: Okay, yes, so we.

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Speaker 1: All think that the phones are listening to us, right,

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Speaker 1: because we talk about something to our friends and then

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Speaker 1: it comes up immediately after.

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Speaker 4: Well, just really quick, this was in like two thousand

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Speaker 4: and eight.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, that changes things. Okay, yeah, no phones got

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Speaker 1: the phones got well phones, yeah, just not these kinds

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Speaker 1: of phones.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't even yeah, I don't even think we

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Speaker 2: like brought them on a hike.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't you know, you didn't have.

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Speaker 1: Well then my technological point is loot, Megan, So I say,

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Speaker 1: but I will just to finish that thought. We think

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Speaker 1: they're listening to us, but apparently the what's actually happening

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Speaker 1: is that when you are in the same space with

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Speaker 1: someone else, everything they have ever searched is then like

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Speaker 1: your phone picks up on their searches. So it's advertising

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Speaker 1: to everyone that you are physically near. So when some

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Speaker 1: stuff comes up in conversation that one person has been doing, like,

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Speaker 1: that's apparently why that happens, not just because the puncti

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Speaker 1: isn't just that's beside the point though, because this has

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Speaker 1: been two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 4: Hey, you know what it's good to know though, Uh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, I've definitely air on the side

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Speaker 1: of skepticism as we all know. However, I'm open and

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Speaker 1: I appreciate the perspective that you know, it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: the universe being like you must go this path, right,

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Speaker 1: but it maybe it's just like, yeah, like a little glitch,

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Speaker 1: a little, a little it's.

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Speaker 4: A whole wink a wink, the universe is flirting with that.

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Speaker 4: I still don't think it's that, but I'm open. I

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Speaker 4: can't say for sure that it's not. That's science.

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Speaker 2: Baby, Yeah, what's the goldiest thing happened to you?

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Speaker 4: Wait?

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Speaker 1: I actually want to tell one story before I say that,

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Speaker 1: which is right, when I was seventeen, I had moved

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Speaker 1: out to Los Angeles. Well, I had sort of lived

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Speaker 1: in Burbank, but then we moved to Vegas and I

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Speaker 1: moved back out by myself at seventeen, and I was

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Speaker 1: going to a community college. And what I really wanted

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Speaker 1: to do for a living at that point in my

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Speaker 1: life was become an FBI profiler. But I also loved music.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, I'm also I'm

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Speaker 1: a filmmaker and actor, but I've been a singer songwriter

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Speaker 1: my whole life. And I can't believe our own podcast

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Speaker 1: producer Steve did not know that until this week. That

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Speaker 1: is crazy to be Fuck you, Steve anyway. But I

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Speaker 1: have this dream of being a musician. But I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's probably like I should find a practical path. I

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Speaker 1: want to be, you know, forensic psychologist, FBI profiler or whatever.

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Speaker 1: I was taking criminal a criminal justice class at the

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Speaker 1: local college that I was going to, and I applied

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Speaker 1: to become like a police cadet, which is crazy in retrospect,

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Speaker 1: considering my feelings about the police now, but I was

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Speaker 1: because I was like, oh, like, maybe I'll be a

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Speaker 1: cadet and I'll be a good path for the FBI.

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Speaker 1: When I joined the FBI to become a profiler, and

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Speaker 1: like hunt down serial killers was the fantasy that I had.

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Speaker 4: I love that this is your practical thing. Always been

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Speaker 4: very practical. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So I took the test to join the cadets or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and it was the easiest fucking test in the world.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm an a student. I'm like, I get perfect grades.

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Speaker 1: This test was so easy. I didn't hear back about

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Speaker 1: whether I'd gotten in. I didn't hear back about what

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Speaker 1: happened with the test, and I called them eventually and

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Speaker 1: I was like, it's been weeks, Like what happened?

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Speaker 4: Did I get in?

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Speaker 1: Did I not get in? And they were like, we

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Speaker 1: can't find your paperwork anywhere.

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Speaker 4: The universe wanted you to be a singer. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's true.

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Speaker 1: At the time, I took it as a sign and

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Speaker 1: I was like, I guess I have to pursue music.

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Speaker 4: That's gonna be what I have to do it. You

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Speaker 4: have to just go for.

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Speaker 1: The dream, and that is what I did. But it's

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Speaker 1: funny because like it's not like I became Lady Gaga.

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Speaker 1: Like in retrospect, I'm like, damn, I wish I would

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Speaker 1: have gone to like a real college that I could

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Speaker 1: have gone to and gotten an education.

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Speaker 4: Really, yeah, because you've done huge things.

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Speaker 2: You've written a song for Brittany, you are, in your

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Speaker 2: own right a pop star like you.

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Speaker 4: You need to chill. You're wrong.

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Speaker 1: I don't have no music coming out. But it's truly

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Speaker 1: not like I don't see that as you know, if

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Speaker 1: I were to pick my life's calling, I don't think

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Speaker 1: it would be that. Which would if you told me

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Speaker 1: that ten years ago, I would have been like, fuck you,

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Speaker 1: yes it is.

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna be a pop star, you know. So I

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Speaker 4: don't know.

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Speaker 1: But on the bright side, it definitely ensured that I

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Speaker 1: never became a police officer.

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Speaker 4: So that's good, yes, because yeah, that is good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you have very fair feelings about that would not

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Speaker 1: have suited me. And yeah, anyway, I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: especially see that as a sign from the universe at

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Speaker 1: this point in time, but that is how I took

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Speaker 1: it then, and that is how some people.

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Speaker 2: That's okay, I'll hold it in my heart as a sign.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, give it the respect that deserves.

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Speaker 1: You can be my magical thinker and do all my

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Speaker 1: magical thinking for me.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you, thank you. No lot, I'm open.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: We don't know everything.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: There she goes gets it.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, that was my story about that.

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Speaker 4: Well, what's the fucking cultiest thing that happened to you?

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Speaker 3: Then?

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Speaker 4: Come on handed it.

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Speaker 1: The thing was just learning about a story. It didn't

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Speaker 1: happen recently. Well, it happened a few years ago, but

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Speaker 1: it's not like it's in the news right now or anything.

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Speaker 4: But it's got two thousand and eight level recent loser.

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Speaker 1: Our dear friend Danin told me a story about a girl,

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Speaker 1: a twenty one year old girl named Kaylee Movethart moth Dart,

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Speaker 1: moth Art. I don't know how you say it, but Kaylee,

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Speaker 1: when she was twenty one, twenty eighteen, she was addicted

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Speaker 1: to drugs. She did meth, and she was also very

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Speaker 1: Christian and held these very strong religious beliefs. Kaylee had

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Speaker 1: a psychotic episode while on the meth, and she thought

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Speaker 1: that she was hearing God telling her that in order

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Speaker 1: to save the world, she had to gouge her own

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Speaker 1: eyes out, and she did. She apparently ripped her own

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Speaker 1: eyes out with her own fucking fingers and then squeezed

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Speaker 1: her eyeballs in her hands. And I didn't read too

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Speaker 1: much into it because Dan, and this is coming from

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Speaker 1: Dana now, but she.

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Speaker 4: Said that she was like, why do I have to

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Speaker 4: do this? God?

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Speaker 1: Why do I have to do this? And God was like,

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Speaker 1: you just got to do it to save the world,

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Speaker 1: and so she did. And now she has no eyes,

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Speaker 1: she's sober.

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Speaker 4: Well she has them, they're just squished. I want do

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Speaker 4: you think that they saved them? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I saved Ramball's teeth after they come out, so who knows.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's like that this is not funny.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, no it's not.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's so offensive. I'm so sorry everyone, me too.

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Speaker 4: For sure. I'm a former drug addict. I can't say

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Speaker 4: these things.

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Speaker 1: It's just fascinating and it really pertains to this episode.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, because the difference between delusions and crazy

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Speaker 1: beliefs that are coming from a cult leader, like that

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Speaker 1: line is really interesting because often there's overlap and what

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Speaker 1: people think is the reality is but in this case,

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Speaker 1: it was hallucinations induced by meth. And so the conclusion

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Speaker 1: here is, please don't do meth kids.

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Speaker 2: No, especially if you have strong beliefs in your head

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Speaker 2: that lean towards yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no methan god bad combo, bad combo, not gud.

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Speaker 1: But also we've said on this podcast before to do drugs,

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Speaker 1: and what we mean is to clarify, do mushrooms, psychedelics.

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Speaker 4: Dose psychedelics, do not do meth.

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Speaker 1: Do you think someone's listening to this podcast and they're like,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna do math, but now I won't.

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Speaker 2: I mean, maybe that story is like fucked up. It's

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Speaker 2: inside of me now I will never not have it.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: You are so welcome, and thank you to Dan and

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Speaker 1: shout out to danin for assorting.

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Speaker 4: Me to this.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, Well, shall we get into talking to Brian Heloida Now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, here we go. Welcome Brian Heloida to the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very excited about this one. You study things

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Speaker 1: that are very interesting to me. Can you tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your academic background and what your

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Speaker 1: expertise is.

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Speaker 3: In sure, I'm a forensic psychiatrist. I went to medical school,

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Speaker 3: then I did residency and psychiatry, and then I did

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Speaker 3: additional training and forensics psychiatry. And what that means is

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Speaker 3: that I do evaluations for attorneys or the courts whenever

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Speaker 3: there's a psychiatric issue in a legal question or an

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Speaker 3: I llegal case. So like common things that you may

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Speaker 3: have heard of in the past are things like competency

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Speaker 3: to stand trial. What that would be is an assessment

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Speaker 3: of whether or not a person is capable of going

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Speaker 3: to court, or if they have a mental illness that

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Speaker 3: prevents them from being able to understand their criminal charges

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Speaker 3: or what's going on in court, or if their mental

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Speaker 3: illness affects their ability to work with their attorney, right, right, right.

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Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of people, a surprising number

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Speaker 1: of people, don't know that there's a difference between psychology

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Speaker 1: and psychiatry. Can you just clarify that distinction?

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Speaker 3: Sure? So, at the basic level, psychiatry is a medical field.

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Speaker 3: So if you're a psychiatrist, you've gone to medical school,

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Speaker 3: you've done rotations in the different areas of medicine, and

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Speaker 3: you've decided to work with patients with mental disorders or

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Speaker 3: mental illness. Psychology, in many ways is a much broader

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Speaker 3: field because there are different areas of psychology and not

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Speaker 3: all of them involve clinical work. So a lot of psychologists,

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Speaker 3: some get master's degrees, some get PhDs, and they decide

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Speaker 3: to do clinical work, so seeing patients and doing therapy

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Speaker 3: with patients. But a lot of psychologists do research or

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Speaker 3: do other things that are not patient care related.

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Speaker 2: But psychiatrists give us the pills, which is what matters.

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Speaker 4: Just kidding, that is.

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Speaker 3: One of the big distinctions. Yes, we do medication management,

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Speaker 3: so I work in a jail. That's my primary clinical setting.

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Speaker 3: So I work in a jail in the Bay Area,

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Speaker 3: and in that role, this may be somewhat of a

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Speaker 3: tangent but a jail is a very interesting place to

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Speaker 3: work as a psychiatrist because you basically have every type

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Speaker 3: of psychiatry under the sun in one building. So you've

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Speaker 3: got folks coming in off the streets who are intoxicated

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Speaker 3: or have a mental illness and have been off their

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Speaker 3: medications for months. Then you have people who just have

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Speaker 3: general depression and anxiety, like milder issues that outside of

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Speaker 3: the jail would be managed in an outpatient context. And

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Speaker 3: then you've got crises happening around the jail and folks

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Speaker 3: in crisis. So it's a very interesting place to work. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and now that's sort of separate from forensic psychiatry, but

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Speaker 3: the work that we do in the jail overlaps a

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Speaker 3: lot because we see folks who are undergoing forensic evaluations

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Speaker 3: for things like competency or sanity.

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Speaker 4: Right right.

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Speaker 1: I actually had no idea that you work in a jail,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like that adds just a total extra

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Speaker 1: layer of interest of things that we can talk about.

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Speaker 4: But for starters, I found you because I.

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Speaker 1: Was googling shared delusions, this idea that one person can

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Speaker 1: sort of transmit their delusions to other people around them,

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Speaker 1: which is called at least I learned today that the

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Speaker 1: DSM five sort of changed things. But I learned it

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Speaker 1: is called folia do or that is what people know

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Speaker 1: it as, or as Megan and I were saying earlier.

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Speaker 1: The American way to say it is apparently a folio

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Speaker 1: or according to websites.

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Speaker 3: But.

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Speaker 1: It's f O l i E hey d e u

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Speaker 1: X it's French.

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Speaker 4: You can you can you.

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Speaker 1: Just explain what this is and why the definition has

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Speaker 1: sort of changed a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So foli ado refers to what in English we

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Speaker 3: call a shared psychotic disorder, and it typically refers to

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Speaker 3: delusional thought content being transmitted or shared between two individuals.

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Speaker 3: And a delusion is a belief that is fixed, meaning

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Speaker 3: you can't convince somebody that it's false with evidence. The

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Speaker 3: person will come up with other reasons as to why

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Speaker 3: you're wrong, and this belief is correct, so it's fixed.

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Speaker 3: It's false meaning it's not based in reality and there's

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Speaker 3: no evidence to support it. And so, in very rare cases,

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Speaker 3: an individual with a delusion, usually somebody in a position

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Speaker 3: of authority or somebody who's in a relationship in which

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Speaker 3: they are the dominant individual somehow will share these delusional

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Speaker 3: beliefs with somebody else, and then that other person will

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Speaker 3: begin to believe the same things.

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Speaker 2: That has to happen on smaller scales, and like every

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Speaker 2: family system, right, is that just.

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Speaker 3: Well, delusions are an interesting thing. We don't fully understand

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Speaker 3: the neurobiology as to how they form, or as to

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Speaker 3: whether or not, you know, we don't fully understand the

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Speaker 3: processes that result in delusional belief. It's a complicated phenomenon.

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Speaker 3: And so the idea that delusions can be transmitted between

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Speaker 3: people is particularly fascinating. Yeah, but that process is likely

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Speaker 3: more consistent with probably what you've talked about on this

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Speaker 3: podcast before, where belief is transmitted within cultural groups. So

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Speaker 3: whether that's like a cult, it's a religious sect, or

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Speaker 3: even amongst like political dissident groups or political extremist groups,

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Speaker 3: beliefs can be shared and transmitted. And I think what

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Speaker 3: you often find, similar to how in fully you do,

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Speaker 3: there's a dominant individual in the relationship. You get a

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Speaker 3: similar sort of dynamic in other groups, like in cults

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Speaker 3: and then things like that, where there's a dominant charismatic

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Speaker 3: figure who is the one promulgating the belief system and

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Speaker 3: convincing other people. Those beliefs, even though those may not

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Speaker 3: be categorized as delusions.

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Speaker 1: Got it. Yeah, I want to ask more about that

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Speaker 1: particular piece in a second, but just for audience.

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Speaker 4: So the case that I always.

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Speaker 1: Think of is the Parker Hume murder case in christ Church,

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Speaker 1: which the movie Heavenly Creatures was based on. Megan, do

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Speaker 1: you do either you know about this?

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Speaker 4: Winslet terrified?

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Speaker 2: She's just like young Kate Winslet, going full full full in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just gonna like go over the like what

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Speaker 1: happened in that story. So basically, these two young girls

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Speaker 1: they met at you know, their Australian boarding school whatever,

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Speaker 1: and became obsessed with each other, and they started to

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Speaker 1: basically create this world and create this sort of fantasy

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Speaker 1: idea of like a fourth dimension where they could go

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Speaker 1: and that's or it was like their version of heaven.

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Speaker 1: And it resulted eventually when they were when one of

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Speaker 1: them was going to move away and so they weren't

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to be together anymore. They decided that

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Speaker 1: what had to be done was murder one of their mothers.

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Speaker 1: So together they murdered one of their moms and it's

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Speaker 1: crazy they only went to jail for like five years

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Speaker 1: because they were young girls. They were I want to say,

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Speaker 1: like twelve or something, kind of like that slender Man.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: But there's like one main girl who's like slender Man

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Speaker 2: told me that this is what we need to do,

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Speaker 2: or like my mom is evil, we need to and

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Speaker 2: then the other person's like, yeah, that's kind of yeah.

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Speaker 1: In Heavenly Creatures, that's sort of how it's portrayed too,

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Speaker 1: Like Kate Winslet is the one, she's the dominant one.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know to what extent that's actually true,

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Speaker 1: or if they were just feeding off each other or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but it's so fascinating to me.

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Speaker 4: Brian.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any like examples or stories that you've

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Speaker 1: seen in your work of this thing actually happening?

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Speaker 3: Yes, one example. It's a very rare condition. But I

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Speaker 3: saw an example clinically during my training. So I don't

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Speaker 3: know how much you guys know about the process of

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Speaker 3: hospitalizing somebody psychiatrically in this country, but nothing. Okay, So

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Speaker 3: in California, which is where I trained, people are placed

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Speaker 3: on what's called the fifty one fifty hold, and so

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Speaker 3: usually that's done by like a social worker. If the

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Speaker 3: patient is brought into the emergency room, or it can

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Speaker 3: be done by the police out in the community in

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Speaker 3: the field, and then the police will bring the person

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Speaker 3: in already on a hold to the emergency room. So

444
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 3: a fifty one fifty L seventy two hours, and within

445
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,400
Speaker 3: those seventy two hours, the person has to be evaluated

446
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 3: by a psychiatrist, and then there's a determination as to

447
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 3: whether or not the person needs to remain on the

448
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 3: hold or if they can drop the hold. If somebody

449
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 3: remains on the hold, then they get brought into a

450
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 3: psychiatric hospital involuntarily. Then that hold can be extended on

451
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 3: what's called a fifty two to fifty, which is a

452
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 3: fourteen day hold.

453
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: Does it just keep going up to fifty three fifteen?

454
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 3: There is a fifty two seventy which is a month

455
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,119
Speaker 3: long commitment, okay, but it kind of ends after that point,

456
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 3: although there are other mechanisms to keep people hospitalized. But

457
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 3: if somebody gets put on this fourteen day hold, then

458
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 3: to protect patients' rights, there are a lot of safeguards

459
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 3: put in place so the patient can can argue that

460
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 3: they don't need to be on a hold and that

461
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 3: they should be allowed to be released. And then under

462
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 3: those conditions, a judge will come in and two attorneys,

463
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 3: one for the psychiatrist and one for the patient, and

464
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 3: each side will present their case as to why the

465
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:04,239
Speaker 3: person remain hospitalized. Now, this was a fascinating case. It

466
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 3: wasn't actually my patient, but I was allowed to come

467
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 3: witness this legal proceeding just in broad terms. So the

468
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 3: case was of this elderly woman. She must have been

469
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 3: in her early sixties. She was picked up because she

470
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: was wandering around in an affluent area, knocking on people's

471
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: doors saying, this is my home, you need to leave.

472
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: WHOA.

473
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 3: As you can imagine, didn't go down. Well. Yeah, so

474
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 3: she gets picked up by the police, brought to the

475
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 3: psychiatric hospital. She had numerous delusions. She believed one that

476
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 3: she was rich and lived in this really wealthy neighborhood.

477
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 3: So she believed that. She believed I think that she

478
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 3: was married to a famous movie star, but that she

479
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 3: had like shortened his legs by two feet, so he

480
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: was like much shorter than he was supposed to be.

481
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 4: WHOA.

482
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 3: So it's fascinating. So we're at this hearing. She's got

483
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: her attorneys. The psychiatrist is there. Psychiatrist is explaining to

484
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 3: the judge why they think the patient needs to stay

485
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: in the hospital. The patient doesn't say much during the hearing.

486
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 3: Usually their attorney speaks and the judge just asks a

487
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 3: few questions of the patient. But the interesting part is

488
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 3: that this patient's daughter came and their patient's daughter she

489
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 3: was sort of smirking and chuckling throughout this whole hearing

490
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 3: as she sat there, and then at one point towards

491
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: the end of it, the daughter started speaking and she

492
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 3: said that her mother indeed was married to a famous

493
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: Hollywood actor and that she had shrunk him down to

494
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 3: three feet in size.

495
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 4: Wow, but I.

496
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 3: Think anyway, it doesn't really matter how it ended. But

497
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 3: that was my first exposure to someonew openly supporting the

498
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 3: delusional beliefs of somebody else and having like taken on

499
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 3: those delusional beliefs.

500
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 4: It's kind of like munch hous Aye somehow.

501
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 3: And it's different, it's different from that.

502
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:03,160
Speaker 4: But like it's no, it's like their psyche's becoming I don't.

503
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, I don't know, there's sort of there.

504
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: He's like, no, Megan, No, it's not actually nothing like that.

505
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 3: You could throw some patients with Munchausens become so like

506
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 3: used to it. I think that it becomes like a Stockholm.

507
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 4: Thing exactly exactly.

508
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 3: They sort of adopt the role that they have been

509
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 3: forced into.

510
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 4: Exactly.

511
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 3: We're talking about Munchausens by proxy.

512
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: I think it's what yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I just

513
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 2: remember watching Mommy dearist and she's like, I knew I

514
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: could walk, but like, I also believe that I must

515
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: not be supposed to.

516
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: It's about mommy, mommy, yeah, mommy and dares.

517
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 4: Oh you have to watch it anyway.

518
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 3: Well, it's also like sharp objects. That's another case of

519
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 3: munch Housings by proxy. But yeah, yeah, it's delusional. It's

520
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 3: different because in this case we're talking about belief formation

521
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 3: and how people accept or reject untruthful beliefs that they

522
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 3: are surrounded by. But it is fascinating that somebody can

523
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 3: take it on that extremely to where they believe absolutely

524
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: incredible things like in this case.

525
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: You bring up a great point that I want to

526
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: know more about, which is how do people come to

527
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: believe these things? And also what is the difference between

528
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: a delusion and just like.

529
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 4: A weird belief.

530
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, like I mentioned, it's not fully

531
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 3: elucidated how people take on beliefs or how beliefs form

532
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 3: in general. There are a lot of models or theoretical

533
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 3: models and cognitive psychology as to how beliefs form in general,

534
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: in particular how people might take on atypical beliefs, and

535
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 3: there has been one proposed model for how people form

536
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 3: beliefs or atypical beliefs, which is called the two deficit model,

537
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 3: which involves a person having what is described as an

538
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: anomalist experience. So that could be something that, for whatever reason,

539
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 3: is particularly salient or important to that person, whether it's

540
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: like they see something that is particularly striking to them,

541
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 3: or they have a physical body sensation that they take

542
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: on to have some sort of special meaning. So then

543
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 3: along with that there is a cognitive misinterpretation of that experience. So,

544
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: for example, in the case of like somebody is looking

545
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 3: up at the night sky and they have this anomalous experience,

546
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 3: some sort of visual distortion, or they see something like

547
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: a flash or something like that, and then a cognitive

548
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 3: misinterpretation of that would be, oh, that's like a UFO,

549
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: and so the the person sort of holds on to

550
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: this belief and maybe they look up more information about

551
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: that and then they become convinced that what they saw

552
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: was a UFO. So that's an example of one type

553
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: of belief model of belief formation.

554
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: So it's like having an emotionally charged experience of some

555
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: kind that you then connect to an idea that's happened simultaneously,

556
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 1: or like.

557
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: Certain people may be prone to taking on sort of

558
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 3: atypical beliefs or interpreting things in a certain way. So

559
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: people who are prone to sort of what we call

560
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: paranoid ideation or persecutory thoughts. There's a personality disorder called

561
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 3: schizotypal personality disorder, and these folks tend to have very

562
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: magical thinking, it's called So they'll connect certain experiences in

563
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 3: their lives, or they'll connect certain ideas in ways that

564
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: are not totally delusional, like they don't have a schizophrenia

565
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 3: or something like that, but it's they're able to connect

566
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 3: things and relate them to themselves in ways that most

567
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: people do not. So they may give more importance to

568
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 3: events or information that they receive and connected to their

569
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: own personal life in a way that somebody else might

570
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: just accept that and move on.

571
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember this guy that somehow was friends with

572
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: my family. I feel like he baby sat me a

573
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: couple times when I was a kid, and he would

574
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: just constantly think that everything was a sign and everything

575
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: was connected. You'd see a rainbow on a billboard and

576
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: he saw a rainbow that week and he was like,

577
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: that means that the Lord is blah blah blah. Like

578
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: it's just it was so extreme, and I hated it

579
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 1: as a kid. I was like, what is wrong with you?

580
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: That's just a fucking random coincidence. It sounds like he

581
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: would probably be in that category of someone who just

582
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: like is doing that more than the average person.

583
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 3: I guess yeah. And there's this concept in psychiatry that

584
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 3: we refer to as ideas of reference, where people sort

585
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 3: of assume that things that are happening around them are

586
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 3: personally relevant, or there's a message they see something on

587
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 3: TV and they somehow interpret that as like a personal message,

588
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: and those sorts of beliefs can reach like a delusional

589
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 3: level where it's like clearly not the case and their

590
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: beliefs are false, Like thinking that the television's talking to

591
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: them or the radios talking to them. That would be

592
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 3: like a delusional level of that sort of belief well.

593
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because I feel like a lot

594
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: of cultish groups are sort of mimicking delusions in the

595
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: way that they perceived the world like. And I'm guessing

596
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: most of those members, I mean, I know for a

597
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: fact we've interviewed many of them, most of those members

598
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: are not actually people who have personality disorders, at least

599
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: not those personality disorders.

600
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 3: You know.

601
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: It's a lot of drawing connections and seeing things as

602
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: signs and God intends this because I saw this, you know.

603
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that is really the crux of

604
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,239
Speaker 1: why I wanted to have you on here, because it

605
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: is like they are taking on these delusions even though

606
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: they are ostensibly like psychologically healthy people.

607
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's where my initial interest in cults came

608
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: up was sort of how, at least in the courts,

609
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 3: how are these beliefs viewed. So is somebody who is

610
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: acting on the basis of a cult belief like if

611
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: they kill somebody or they assault somebody, if they do

612
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 3: something criminal on the basis of their cult beliefs, are

613
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: they able to say that they were not guilty by

614
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: reason of insanity, which you know is sort of a

615
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 3: proxy as to whether or not. The courts view these

616
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: types of beliefs as delusional, and it turns out that

617
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 3: so I did a review of cases related to cults

618
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 3: and these sort of beliefs, and in a lot of cases,

619
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 3: courts reject that claim outright, And it all comes down

620
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: to who's making the decision. So if it's a jury,

621
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: I mean, the question is, can you convince a jury

622
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 3: that the person's beliefs were somehow pathological and that they

623
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: were experiencing these beliefs only because of the cult, and

624
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 3: so they were ill in some way at the time

625
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 3: they committed.

626
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: A crime, right, Yeah, that is I mean, that's an

627
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: area of particular interest to me. It's not considered a

628
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: legitimate thing to be under the undue influence of somebody

629
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: else's will. And honestly surprising to me that we think

630
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: of Charles Manson as the evil one in that case,

631
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: because I feel like so much of the time it

632
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: is the followers who commit the crime who we want

633
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: to punish and who we believe are acting out of

634
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: their own volition. And I mean, and of course, look,

635
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: when you commit a crime, like there should be consequences

636
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: for committing a crime. But I think we also have

637
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: to recognize that, to use the colloquial term brainwashing is

638
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: a legitimate thing that happens.

639
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's interesting when I initially published a paper

640
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: about cult beliefs. The paper specifically looked at cases of

641
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 3: cult members who had committed murder and then the question

642
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: of insanity arose at some point during their proceedings, and

643
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 3: in none of the cases was the person found not

644
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: guilty by reason of insanity. But after that paper was published,

645
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 3: somebody reached out to me about a case and it

646
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 3: wasn't the case of murder. It was actually a conspiracy

647
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: to commit murder case of a couple individuals who were

648
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 3: in a cult like organization. And in that case, one

649
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: person actually was found not guilty reason of insanity, and

650
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: he was a member, he wasn't the charismatic leader of

651
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 3: the group. I think courts generally like to have a

652
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 3: psychiatric diagnosis and have that diagnosis to explain a person's

653
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 3: behavior and explain how the person meets the legal criteria

654
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 3: for insanity. But some have argued that, you know, there

655
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: should be a more dimensional approach, meaning let's look at

656
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 3: what the person's beliefs were and whether or not they

657
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 3: fall into a specific psychiatric diagnosis. Let's talk about how

658
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,959
Speaker 3: those beliefs affected their behavior and may have motivated the

659
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 3: criminal act. But you know, determinations of insanity are yes

660
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 3: or no, So it's the clearer a message a jury receives.

661
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,719
Speaker 3: You know, oftentimes that has the most way, you know,

662
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: whatever makes the most sense.

663
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: So right, well, first of all, the DSM is an

664
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: evolving like group of definitions, right like, is there anything

665
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: in there that addresses like a coercive control or being

666
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, under under influence of someone else.

667
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 3: So there was there was a brief mention in DSM

668
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 3: five related to that very thing, but it doesn't come

669
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: under a psychotic disorder diagnosis, meaning things like schizophrenia or

670
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: delusional disorder. They have this section. So if you've heard

671
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 3: of dissociative disorders, those are things like dissociative fugue. So

672
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 3: the classic example is somebody who wakes up in a

673
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: different city or comes back to their normal self in

674
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 3: a different city and doesn't know how they got there

675
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: and doesn't know what happened in the intervening time. That's

676
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 3: we call that a dissociated fugue. There's also dissociative identity disorder.

677
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 3: What used to be called multiple personality disorder, which is

678
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: a highly controversial topic.

679
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 4: I was going to say in general.

680
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: So there's this chapter on dissociative disorders, and then in

681
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 3: each chapter in the DSM there's sort of this cat

682
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 3: ggory at the end for things that don't quite fit

683
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 3: with the other diagnoses, and under DSM five those are

684
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: called the other specified disorders. So all that is just

685
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 3: a prologue to say that there is an other specified

686
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 3: dissociative disorder. And in the text of that they write

687
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 3: about there's this diagnosis of identity disturbance due to prolonged

688
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 3: and intense coercive persuasion. That's the language of the diagnosis,

689
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 3: and there's a brief description which is individuals who have

690
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: been subjected to intense coursive persuasion, for example, brainwashing, thought reform, indoctrination,

691
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: while captive torture, long term imprisonment, recruitment by sects or cults,

692
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 3: or by terror organizations may present with prolonged changes in

693
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 3: or conscious questioning of their identity. So sort of an

694
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 3: interesting it addresses what you're talking about, but the curious

695
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 3: thing is that it is focused on a person's sense

696
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 3: of identity which is a much more elusive concept than

697
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 3: like somebody's beliefs and whether or not they're delusional or

698
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 3: sort of pseudo delusional.

699
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: Right, because if you believe that in order to like

700
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: save the world, you are being told by God through

701
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: your leader, that you have to commit this crime, you

702
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: know that is it might not be about your identity specifically,

703
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: but that to me, that's a pretty extenuating belief. I mean,

704
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: And ultimately, like the question that it comes down to

705
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: is like intent versus impact. If the impact is that

706
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: somebody was harmed or murdered, obviously, like that matters. But

707
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: I don't think that intent should not be a part

708
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: of the equation at all. Personally, you don't think that.

709
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: I don't think intent should be ignored. Right if somebody

710
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: believes that what they're doing is actually a good thing, right,

711
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying.

712
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, And do you see those in you see that

713
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 3: issue in insanity cases where somebody with a primary psychotic

714
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 3: sort of like schizophrenia believes that unless they do this act,

715
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 3: Satan is going to kill their children or something like that.

716
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 3: So like the Andrea Yates case, drowned her children. She

717
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: had a belief that I think it was similar to

718
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: that that unless she did that, Satan was going to

719
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: take her children or something like that, Right, And yeah,

720
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 3: people can believe similar things on the basis of their

721
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 3: involvement with like cults, and I think it's just more

722
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 3: difficult to prove in court that those beliefs. This is

723
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: going to sound funny, but it's more difficult to prove

724
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 3: that like cult beliefs or other sort of group beliefs

725
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 3: weren't voluntary. And I put voluntary in quotes because I

726
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: don't really believe that what anybody believes is all that voluntary. Like, right,

727
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 3: people are predisposed to believe certain things, and they don't

728
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: really have much control over what they end up believing.

729
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 3: It's just how their brain works, that's right. Often, you know,

730
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: it's one way to look at it. But I think

731
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: courts in general have people's involvement in religious groups or

732
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 3: cults or whatever as voluntary behavior, and so anything that

733
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 3: stems from that is sort of like, well, you chose

734
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 3: to do this, and it's it's sort of similar to

735
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 3: like general religious belief like people who people who make

736
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 3: decisions on the basis of their religious beliefs, even from

737
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 3: mainstream religions like that's considered you know, voluntary, and you're not.

738
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 3: There have even been some cases. There was a case

739
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 3: that went to the Supreme Court in nineteen forty four.

740
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 3: There was a Supreme Court case called the United States

741
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: the Ballard and this involved a cult called the i

742
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 3: Am Movement and they had been convicted for defrauding people

743
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 3: by claiming to have supernatural powers to cure incurable diseases.

744
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: So this group was going around taking people's money and

745
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 3: claiming to cure them by supernatural means. So this made

746
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 3: its way all up to the Supreme Court, and the

747
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: court said in their opinion that the question of whether

748
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 3: the claims about the religious experiences were valid should never

749
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 3: have even been given to the jury. And the quotation

750
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,839
Speaker 3: from their opinion is that freedom of religious belief embraces

751
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 3: the right to maintain theories of life and of death

752
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 3: and of the hereafter, which are rank heresy to followers

753
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 3: of the orthodox faiths. So the idea there is that

754
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 3: people have the right to believe whatever sort of religious

755
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: beliefs they want, and that's not really something to be

756
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 3: judged or questioned in a court of law. And what

757
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 3: comes from that is that if you don't question the

758
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: religious beliefs, then whatever behavior comes from that was the

759
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 3: person's choice and it was totally religional. But you know,

760
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,479
Speaker 3: I think there's more gray area there then, well, right.

761
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: Because that just allows absolutely no room for the process

762
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: of indoctrination or manipulation that so often happens when somebody

763
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: has complete control over others' lives.

764
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was.

765
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: Reading about the Toolbox Killers. I don't know when I

766
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 2: looked up what we're talking about today. That's what kept

767
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: up for me. It was these two dudes in the

768
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: seventies who murdered five girls together.

769
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: What were their shared delusions about Megan, do you remember?

770
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: Well, their shared delusions were that killing teenage girls was

771
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: fine they wanted.

772
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 3: That's a strictly psychopathic to me.

773
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, well it was one.

774
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: It was one guy who was like leading. It is

775
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: why this came.

776
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 4: Because he was like I was. The other guy was

777
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 4: like he was more in charge.

778
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: I tried to like let them go and he wouldn't

779
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: let me, and we were in prison together and I

780
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 2: got indoctrinated by him and blah blah blah. And then

781
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: you know, I kept reading these articles and one of

782
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: them was just kept talking about how they shared hallucinations

783
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: and I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

784
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 4: But that makes sense that it's just not right.

785
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 1: It's just people miss mixing those words up basically.

786
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

787
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

788
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 2: But when you like are in a writer's room, sometimes

789
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: you'll come up with the craziest fucking idea and somebody

790
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: else's thought of it, thinks of it at the exact

791
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: same time, and you're just like, what the fuck was that?

792
00:40:59,560 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: I don't know.

793
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: Anyway, there are some things we cannot explain.

794
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just like trying to delineate where

795
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: the difference is between Folia DO and you know, just

796
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: like shared group beliefs that are weird, is it that,

797
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: like in a shared delusion or in folio do it

798
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: just like sort of organically becomes contagious and in a

799
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: cult it's like willfully given to the other people.

800
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

801
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 3: So again, this is such a murky area, and it's

802
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 3: something that I still write about because it's such a

803
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: great area. But me think of a sort of systematic

804
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 3: way that one could try to think about this to

805
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 3: try to delineate between the two. I guess I would

806
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 3: say in Folia Do, one of the individuals at least

807
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: and then you know, by extension, the second one develops

808
00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 3: a delusional disorder, so they have you know, what meets

809
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: criteria for a delusion. Now, part of the diagnosis of

810
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 3: a delusion is that the belief is not accepted by

811
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: the individuals cultural group, or religious group. That's an exclusionary

812
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 3: criteria for it. So, like, the belief to some extent

813
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 3: at least has to be idiosyncratic for that person.

814
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: Right, we can't just go to some island in the

815
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere where they believe something different and be like,

816
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 2: you're delusional, right, right.

817
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 3: Right, And you can't call whatever percentage of the population

818
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: of the United States that believes in QAnon. You can't say, oh,

819
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 3: you're all delusional, because for it to be a delusion,

820
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: there can't really be like a community that really a

821
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: group of followers that adheres to this belief. And that's

822
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: one reason why it's kind of hard to say that

823
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 3: individuals who are in a cult all have like a

824
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 3: mass shared delusional disorder. Some people have put forth that idea,

825
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 3: but the very definition of delusion, like it's got to

826
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: be somewhat idiosyncratic to that individual. So when looking at

827
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: folks who have delusions, there are there are varying levels

828
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 3: of different elements of belief that we can look at.

829
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 3: So I'm referring to things like the degree to which

830
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: a person is preoccupied with that belief. So how often

831
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: is the belief coming to them, how much sort of

832
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 3: cognitive space does it take up for them in a

833
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 3: given day, So you can talk about levels of preoccupation,

834
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 3: levels of conviction. So, as I mentioned before, a person

835
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 3: with a delusion cannot have their belief shaken, like they

836
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 3: believe in this regardless of any evidence presented to them,

837
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: whereas some folks in cults or some people who believe

838
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 3: conspiracy theories, they may openly say they're not one hundred

839
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 3: percent on board with the beliefs, even if they report

840
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 3: that they generally believe it. There is a concept of

841
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: how self referential the belief is. So some have argued

842
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 3: that delusions will be more self referential, like the belief

843
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 3: affects them more personally than perhaps a belief in QAnon.

844
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 3: Like belief in QAnon may mean that somebody believes things

845
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 3: about the government, people in the government, people in Hollywood.

846
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 3: They may believe all these things, but it doesn't necessarily

847
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 3: directly impact their life so much, whereas a delusion typically

848
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 3: it's like very closely tied to the person's life. Right,

849
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: So there are these other facets of the belief that

850
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 3: we can look at to try to distinguish between a delusion.

851
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 3: But again, even with non delusional beliefs, some of these

852
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: factors can be quite strong.

853
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about cult leaders for a second, moving

854
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: beyond the members, because one thing that comes up for

855
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: so lot and that we often wonder about is which

856
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: cult leaders are you know, knowingly conning people and which

857
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 1: ones are themselves experiencing delusions. And if they they are

858
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: experiencing delusions and then transmitting their genuine delusions onto all

859
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: of their followers, does that not qualify as a shared delusion?

860
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 3: Right? And in my review of cases of cult murder,

861
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 3: some of the cult leaders actually received psychotic diagnoses. So,

862
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: I don't know if you guys have covered the Michael

863
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 3: Ryan cults in Nebraska.

864
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 4: We know, but was his son his son murdered somebody?

865
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:31,240
Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, yeah, So that was an interesting case because

866
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 3: Michael Ryan, the leader of the cult, was diagnosed with

867
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 3: paranoid schizophrenia, so he believed all sorts of strange things.

868
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 3: He said that Yahweh was giving him directions to build

869
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: a base camp to like stockpile weapons and cattle and

870
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 3: construction equipment and all this stuff. And ultimately he killed

871
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: two of his followers I believe in a pretty brutal manner.

872
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 3: One of the he like sodomized with a shovel.

873
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 4: And one of almost five years old.

874
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they killed a five year old and then his

875
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: fifteen year old son, Dennis Ryan stomped on the chest

876
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 3: of one of them until they died. So like super

877
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 3: brutal stuff. God, but yeah, the cult leader was diagnosed

878
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 3: with paranoid schizophrenia, but it didn't sway the jury and

879
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 3: he wasn't found insane. And then the Sun also put

880
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: forth a not guilty by reason of insanity plea, and

881
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 3: somebody diagnosed him with shared psychotic disorder or fully ADO,

882
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 3: but again it didn't convince anybody, and he was convicted.

883
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: My understanding is that the insanity plea doesn't, like almost

884
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 1: never works. What is your experience of that or knowledge

885
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: of that.

886
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 3: It is extremely rare. Different figures have been thrown out

887
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 3: for how often it's used and how often it's successful,

888
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 3: but it is very rare.

889
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 4: I was just reading that you don't want to be.

890
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 3: Your sent to the hospital and sometimes indefinitely, whereas if

891
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 3: you go to yeah, just like serve your time and

892
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 3: leave exactly.

893
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 4: And yeah, scary people anyway.

894
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: Well, unless it's unless you were going to go for

895
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: life or for debt.

896
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 3: Then you will, in which case, yeah, then you would

897
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: claim a delusional disorder and then within a year of

898
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 3: being in the hospital, your delusion would magically disappear. That's

899
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 3: the way.

900
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 4: You're going to fake it, noted writing this down.

901
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 3: So as far as the insanity defense and its use goes,

902
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 3: a recent study demonstrated. So this study doesn't talk about

903
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 3: how often it's used, but I can tell you it's

904
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 3: not commonly brought up. But when it is brought up,

905
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 3: an expert will find a defendant insane in about fourteen

906
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 3: percent of their evaluations. So that's the expert's opinion. Now,

907
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 3: when it's actually raised in court, approximately twenty six percent

908
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: of defendants are acquitted is not guilty er reason of it?

909
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: See, so twenty six percent of fourteen percent, Yes.

910
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 3: But that's fourteen percent of the evaluations who think that, yes,

911
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 3: the person is insane. It's not that an attorney will

912
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: have their defend and evaluated fourteen percent of the time.

913
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 3: It's probably worse than that as far as even having

914
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,760
Speaker 3: somebody get evaluated.

915
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 4: For that, right, right, right.

916
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 3: It's different in every state because different states have different statutes,

917
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 3: and the standard for insanity differs in different states. So

918
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 3: it just depends.

919
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that By the way, we've been

920
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: saying DSM a lot, and I feel like there are

921
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: probably a lot of people who don't actually know what

922
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: that means.

923
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 4: So do you want to just define DSM?

924
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 3: Yeah. The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of

925
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 3: Mental Disorders, and so this is our book that psychiatrists

926
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 3: and psychologists and some social workers use to make psychiatric diagnoses.

927
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 3: And so we're now in our fifth edition, which came

928
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 3: out in twenty and thirteen, and the book evolves with

929
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 3: each iteration, diagnoses will change somewhat. Sometimes diagnoses will be

930
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 3: taken out entirely. So, for example, the shared Psychotic disorder

931
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 3: or fully ADO, was taken out of DSM five. It's

932
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 3: not even in DSM five. But I had previously mentioned

933
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,359
Speaker 3: that each chapter has an other specified category, and there

934
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 3: is an other specified diagnosis under the psychotic disorders for

935
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 3: something that's similar to shared psychotic disorder called delusional symptoms

936
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 3: in partner of individual with delusional disorder, which I actually

937
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 3: think it's a bigger mouthful and it's not as nice

938
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 3: as the French folly you do, so it doesn't sound

939
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 3: as great, but I think it likely better captures what

940
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 3: is actually going on in the situation because the person

941
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 3: who takes on these beliefs, they might not have the

942
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 3: same conviction as the the primary individual with delusional disorder.

943
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 3: And what you find is that when you separate the two,

944
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 3: the person who took on the beliefs tends to lose

945
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 3: them over time. They don't typically develop like a full

946
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 3: blown delusional disorder where they then continue to believe that

947
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 3: stuff like once they're separated from the dominant individual, oftentimes

948
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 3: those beliefs will sort of go away or they can

949
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 3: be more easily managed, whereas individuals with delusional disorder have

950
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 3: like a legitimate psychotic disorder that requires treatment with medication for.

951
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 4: It to go away, right right, yeah, Yeah.

952
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,399
Speaker 1: The question of who who has a disorder and who

953
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: doesn't in terms of cult leaders is one that was

954
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: just will just endlessly fascinate me, and I wish we

955
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: could get evaluations for them all, because you know, I

956
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: mean for some of them, Like we were just saying

957
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: this in the last episode, So sorry listeners if I'm

958
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: repeating myself, But my former cult leader sometimes will admit

959
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: that he was conning people and sometimes won't, and sometimes

960
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 1: it seems like he really does have these delusions of grandeur,

961
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: and it's kind of it can be pretty hard to

962
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: tell whether he actually has delusions or not, you know.

963
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, forensic psychiatrists don't have

964
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,240
Speaker 3: a crystal ball either, So yeah, this is an area where,

965
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 3: you know, somebody who's not informed about the background of

966
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 3: the individual and doesn't have the full history may label

967
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 3: somebody as psychotic or having like a major mental illness

968
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 3: when they don't really. So just as an example of that,

969
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 3: there was a paper published about the forensic evaluation of

970
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 3: sovereign citizen folks and for those who don't know, sovereign

971
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 3: citizens are people who hold i would say, atypical political beliefs.

972
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 3: They believe that the US runs under maritime law that

973
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 3: when each person is born, the birth certificate that is

974
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 3: given in all capital letters represents like the establishment of

975
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: a corporation in that person's name that the US government

976
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 3: establishes a trust for that person. Lots of strange beliefs

977
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 3: that sound frankly delusional, right, but it is a well

978
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 3: subscribed set of beliefs that groups and certain states have.

979
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 3: It's often associated with like militia and white supremacy type stuff.

980
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 3: But there was a paper published about the forensic evaluation

981
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 3: of these people, and the author wrote how in reviewing

982
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 3: cases of sovereign citizens that he had evaluated, he had

983
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 3: found one of the people incompetent to stand trial on

984
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 3: the basis of a delusional disorder. And they said, looking

985
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 3: back on it, that was probably a mistake, and the

986
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 3: person's beliefs were likely just consistent with sovereign citizen beliefs.

987
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 3: I just wasn't aware of it at the time, and

988
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 3: so he made that opinion, perhaps incorrectly looking back on it. Wow.

989
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: Interesting. Well, with the advent of the Internet, I mean,

990
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: it just seems like it's so easy now to transmit

991
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: your delusions to other people.

992
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: You know, yes, and then if you transmit it to

993
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: enough people, it's not a delusion anymore.

994
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 3: We don't know if the people who started QAnon were

995
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 3: delusional or not.

996
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: Right, our former qnon believer that we had on our

997
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: podcast firmly believes that the that Q is just a

998
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: sociopath who was like fucking with everyone.

999
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 3: I mean this started on Reddit, right, Like, yeah, talk

1000
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 3: about the source of a never ending source of psychopathy

1001
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 3: on the Internet is Reddit. But I shouldn't say that.

1002
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 3: A lot on Reddit just say that, But yeah, I mean,

1003
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 3: the Internet has facilitated the spread of beliefs. It's facilitated

1004
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 3: the spread of fake news. It's facilitated the dissemination of

1005
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 3: emotionally charged videos containing clips that you don't know where

1006
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 3: they came from or how out of context they were taken.

1007
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 3: But if you string it together, there are going to

1008
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 3: be people out there who are susceptible to believing whatever

1009
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 3: you're putting out, because all of us, to some degree

1010
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 3: are susceptible to believe things that we see and hear,

1011
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 3: especially if it resonates with our personal experience in some way.

1012
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,800
Speaker 3: So which is sort of relates to that too deficit

1013
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 3: model of belief formation that I mentioned previously.

1014
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: Right, and which just reminds me again, I mean, we're

1015
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: not choosing. We're not going around and choosing our beliefs.

1016
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 1: I wish that we could, because I would choose much

1017
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 1: kinder beliefs about myself if I could do that, because

1018
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: that's the shit that I believe about myself is fucked up. Man,

1019
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: It's like that nice.

1020
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 3: Our minds are hopelessly subject to the influences that come

1021
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 3: at us. And yeah, I mean we don't get to

1022
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 3: choose what we believe.

1023
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like we can choose to I guess

1024
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: maybe now. But even that, I'm like trying to choose

1025
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: to reprogram my beliefs. But it's still like it's not

1026
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: just happening, Like I have to go to CBT and like,

1027
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:52,959
Speaker 1: you know, yeah.

1028
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 3: You are not responsible for the fact that you are

1029
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 3: motivated to do that, or that you have the motivation

1030
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 3: to change those beliefs. That is not something you controlled.

1031
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 3: You did not control the preconditions that led you to

1032
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 3: getting to a point where you were contemplating.

1033
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: Change, because free will doesn't exist. Okay, I just had

1034
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 1: one more thought, which is just a bit of a tangent.

1035
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: But I also want to just point out that American psychology,

1036
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 1: you know, the DSM, is very different from it's just American,

1037
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: the American standard, like the British whatever it's called, the

1038
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 1: British psychological society. They have different definitions of things and

1039
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: everything is evolving. You're you're kind of giving me a stuff.

1040
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like alther folks use something called the International Classification

1041
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 3: of Diseases to make diagnoses. There's like pretty good overlap

1042
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 3: in most areas on those things. But certainly, I mean,

1043
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 3: there are different people in different camps about certain elements

1044
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 3: of psych pathology who you know, have certain beliefs about

1045
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 3: disorders or diagnoses, and these things are evolving. But yeah,

1046
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 3: I guess I'll just say that about it.

1047
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I only said that to My only

1048
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: point with saying that is to say that a lot

1049
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: of this stuff. I mean, I think there's a lot

1050
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: of work to be done in getting to a place

1051
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 1: where we do have definitions that make sense. Does it

1052
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: even make sense to have labels to the extent that

1053
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: we do, And there's more recognition of what course of

1054
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: control is in other places, And I think it's just

1055
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 1: all evolving and hopefully we'll get much better.

1056
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1057
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 3: I mean, the DSM is not the end all be

1058
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 3: all of psychopathology. It's a manual that we use.

1059
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 4: That'll be different next year or you know, in four

1060
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 4: over years.

1061
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are changes with each edition. It

1062
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 3: might might not be as sweeping as some people imagine

1063
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 3: the changes to be. In some areas, there are significant

1064
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 3: changes that affect how diagnoses are made or how diagnoses

1065
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 3: may play out in the courtroom. That's certainly true. But

1066
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 3: I mean there's there's so much research and data and opinion,

1067
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 3: expert opinion beyond what's in the DSM. So I mean,

1068
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 3: I think, I think that's why you had me on here,

1069
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: which is belief is something that we don't fully understand,

1070
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 3: like the basic science and the neurobiology of belief and

1071
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 3: how beliefs form. We don't fully understand that yet. And

1072
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 3: then when it comes to these shared beliefs amongst groups

1073
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 3: of people, you know, the definitions get blurry and things

1074
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 3: get really difficult. And we haven't talked about it yet,

1075
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 3: but there are sort of some ways that have been

1076
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 3: tried to describe these beliefs. So we've been talking a

1077
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 3: lot about what some called delusion like beliefs or dlbs.

1078
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 3: So these are like shared beliefs that you know, to

1079
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 3: an outside observer may seem psychotic. You know, whether it's

1080
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 3: in a cult, whether it's in like the Sovereign Citizen movement,

1081
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 3: or whether it's in conspiracy theory risks. Like a lot

1082
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 3: of these types of beliefs could be called delusion like

1083
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 3: beliefs because they sort of straddled the line between accepted

1084
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 3: within a subculture but also seeming really pathological. So that's

1085
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 3: been one method to try to describe these. And then

1086
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 3: there's been another recent term called the extreme over valued belief,

1087
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 3: which we don't need to get into that because the

1088
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 3: definition is fairly lengthy and the reason they're called extreme

1089
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: is more based on the behavior that results from the

1090
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: belief than the actual belief itself, So there's sort of

1091
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 3: some internal confusion as to like what does it mean

1092
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 3: to have it in extreme belief? So, but I think

1093
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 3: the delusion like belief better captures what we're looking at,

1094
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 3: which is, you know, beliefs that appear totally bizarre from outside,

1095
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 3: but they may seem consistent amongst the group members.

1096
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 4: And if there were a clear.

1097
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 1: Definition in the DSM that referred to not just as

1098
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,760
Speaker 1: a footnote, but like a clear term for what happens

1099
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: when you are under a course of control, do you

1100
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 1: think that more people would be found not guilty when

1101
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 1: they commit crimes for their cult or whatever.

1102
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 3: I don't know. Again, that mention of course of control

1103
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 3: in the DSM now under that dissociative disorder category is

1104
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 3: strange and I haven't seen it come up in any cases.

1105
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 3: I've never actually seen a dissociative disorder. Oh, I take

1106
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 3: it back, never mind, spoke too soon. I have that

1107
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 3: attempted to be used, but I don't know. I mean,

1108
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 3: definitions only get you so far. Like, the problem with

1109
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 3: definitions is they can be flexed and they can be bents.

1110
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 3: So it really requires like a deeper understanding of the

1111
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 3: literature on belief formation and on these groups and how

1112
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 3: beliefs get transmitted within these types of groups. I think

1113
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 3: to make to make an argument that somebody should be

1114
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 3: found insane on the basis of their.

1115
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: Beliefs, right, well, insane, I mean that's that's another That's

1116
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: a whole other tangent we could go on, because I'm like,

1117
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: would it be does it have to be insane or

1118
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: could it just be influenced? You know?

1119
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 3: So oftentimes as a forensic psychiatrist, you'll be asked to

1120
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 3: evaluate somebody and they're not going for an insanity defense,

1121
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 3: but they're going for just get me a psychiatric evaluation

1122
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 3: and tell me if there are any mitigating factors in

1123
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 3: this case, so like, help the attorney and help the

1124
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 3: court understand the person's vulnerabilities if they were laboring under

1125
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 3: any sort of mental illness, or if not a mental illness,

1126
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 3: you know, something that doesn't fit as neatly into the

1127
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 3: DSM like and in those cases it might be more

1128
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 3: appropriate to talk about course of control and things like

1129
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 3: that and how that affected the person in the commission

1130
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 3: of a crime if they've been accused of one.

1131
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 4: How do how do people? Do you want people to

1132
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 4: find you official media or do you have to?

1133
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I have a website. It's basically for like

1134
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 3: attorneys to contact me, but it has a submit page

1135
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 3: if like people want to submit questions or whatever.

1136
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 4: Oh cool, where does that?

1137
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 3: It's just my name dot com, Brianhloida.

1138
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 1: Dot com, Brianhealoida dot com.

1139
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, submit any questions.

1140
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: That was great, awesome, Thank you so much for coming on.

1141
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for having me. Hopefully it's somewhat enlightening

1142
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 3: or educational so much.

1143
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 4: Oh totally yeah.

1144
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: Alrighty, Megan, So your question for today is not would

1145
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: you join this group because what group would we be

1146
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: talking about? But Your question is, do you think you've

1147
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: ever experienced like a light form a folio do where

1148
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: someone believed something or had some weird idea and then

1149
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: you kind of took.

1150
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 4: That on so much.

1151
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, give me an example.

1152
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 4: Okay, well, I'm thinking let me ask you the same,

1153
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 4: do you do you have one?

1154
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: The first one that comes to mind is I feel

1155
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: like such a loser talking about this because I feel

1156
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: like I've talked about this relationship. Luckily, no one can

1157
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,080
Speaker 1: tell the difference between which relationships I'm referring to in

1158
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: any episode, so h.

1159
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 4: Isn't it great?

1160
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 1: But there is a relationship that I was in in

1161
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: which my beliefs about myself changed dramatically over the course

1162
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 1: of the months that we were together, and he had

1163
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: like formed a conclusion about me that is not aligned

1164
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: with reality necessarily, but because he was so insistent on it,

1165
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: by the end of the relationship, I had taken that

1166
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: on into my identity and I was like, oh, I

1167
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: don't think like this. I'm not a person who does this.

1168
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm just a lowly other kind of person. And it

1169
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: was only like months afterwards that I was like, what,

1170
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous.

1171
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 4: What now?

1172
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 3: What?

1173
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: Granted it's not a delusion, but it is a like,

1174
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: it is a false belief. It is a you know,

1175
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:57,439
Speaker 1: a change in my thoughts that happened due to someone else.

1176
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I also participated in allowing myself to

1177
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: take on those thoughts. But you know, we're only so strong.

1178
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: We're only so strong.

1179
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're only so strong. That's a really good one.

1180
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 2: I like that.

1181
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 4: I mean, I hate it for you, but you're like,

1182
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 4: I like that for you. I like you. Yeah, you

1183
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 4: keep that. That's fits you well. I think mine is.

1184
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 2: Like in eighth grade, I became friends with this girl

1185
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 2: who was new to our school, and she was very

1186
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 2: like she had a very outcast mentality, kind of in

1187
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 2: like a rebellious cool way. But I became like best

1188
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 2: friends with her really quickly, and it was very like

1189
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 2: everyone hates us, and I was like, everyone does hate us,

1190
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 2: And suddenly I just felt like everyone.

1191
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 4: Hated mmmmm mmm hmmm.

1192
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: That's a good I feel like that happens in friendships

1193
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: a lot, where it's like, what's uh, everyone everyone's against us,

1194
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:54,400
Speaker 1: or I don't.

1195
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 4: Know, yeah, or or sometimes it's like everyone loves us,

1196
01:03:58,640 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 4: yes exactly.

1197
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh I could think of yeah, actually it's I mean, look,

1198
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 1: this is obviously one of the topics that fascinates me

1199
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 1: most in life, where I'm like someone thinking something and

1200
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: then influencing other people with that thought, regardless of its

1201
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 1: connection to reality. I just find that process to be

1202
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: incredibly fascinating. It certainly is, and I have nothing else

1203
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 1: to say about that.

1204
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 4: I love that.

1205
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: Do you think that? Do you think that this episode

1206
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: is concluded and all of its beauty and exceptionalness?

1207
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 1: Well, I was also thinking it's the end of the episode.

1208
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 4: It's a coincidence. The universe is leading us. It's winking.

1209
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 4: Oh my god, you gotta wink.

1210
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 2: You're so lucky. All right, guys, Well, thank you so

1211
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 2: much for listening. Remember to follow your gut, watch out

1212
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 2: for red flags, and never ever trust me.

1213
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 3: Bye.