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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: How do you describe the story and its themes?

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Speaker 2: I would describe it as a story about the ripple

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Speaker 2: effects of Hadred, the struggle for political power, and what

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Speaker 2: I call historical amnesia.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that

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Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. John Blake is a senior

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Speaker 1: writer and producer with CNN, and he's also the author

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Speaker 1: of a book called Children of the Movement. In the book,

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Speaker 1: Blake collected the intimate, moving stories of families who were

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Speaker 1: pulled apart by the horrors of the civil rights movement

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Speaker 1: and It features the stories from some of the era's

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Speaker 1: most recognizable figures. In that book, Blake reports on the

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Speaker 1: story of James Earl Cheney, a black civil rights worker

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Speaker 1: who was murdered in Mississippi in the nineteen sixties alongside

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Speaker 1: two white civil rights workers. Cheney's death was horrible, but

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Speaker 1: the story didn't end with his death. The ripple effects

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Speaker 1: of his murder are felt throughout his family. As one

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Speaker 1: tragedy leads to another.

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Speaker 2: The life of an average black person in Mississippi, and

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Speaker 2: particularly in the rural areas, was a life of really

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Speaker 2: constant terra. If that person tried to vote, if that

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Speaker 2: person owned too much property, had too much wealth, they

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Speaker 2: could be thrown off their land. They could literally be killed.

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Speaker 2: It was an apartheid's state where white people had all

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Speaker 2: the political and economic power, and the black people in

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Speaker 2: Mississippi lived not that much differently than the blacks in

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Speaker 2: the nineteenth century Mississippi who had just been freed from slavery.

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Speaker 1: How did this compare with other states, both the southern

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Speaker 1: and northern states, and the condition of black people who

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Speaker 1: lived there.

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Speaker 2: Mississippi had a reputation of being one of the most

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Speaker 2: brutal segregation of states in the Jim Crow era, and

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Speaker 2: there are different reasons for it. Nina Simone wrote a

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Speaker 2: song about Mississippi. Mississippi, God damn. It was a particularly

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Speaker 2: brutal state for black people because it's something that people

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Speaker 2: don't normally talk about, and that is there were a

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Speaker 2: large number of blacks in Mississippi for a long time.

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Speaker 3: Think going back to the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 2: There were times when black people in Mississippi outnumbered whites.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of whites felt from the very beginning

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Speaker 2: in Mississippi when black people in the nineteenth century first

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Speaker 2: got their citizenship rights, they were very aware early on

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Speaker 2: that if they ever allowed democracy to exist in Mississippi,

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Speaker 2: that they could be voted out of power. They were

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Speaker 2: particularly brutal in Mississippi because they knew the numbers weren't

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Speaker 2: on their side, and they reveled in the type of

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Speaker 2: savagery that they were known for. They wanted that reputation

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Speaker 2: to terrorize black people so they wouldn't take advantage of

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Speaker 2: the numbers so things wouldn't change. Also, Mississippi gave this

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Speaker 2: country some of the most racist, segregationist politicians. I give

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Speaker 2: you example how bad Mississippi was. My father was a

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Speaker 2: merchant marine. This is a man who had been in

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Speaker 2: World War two, Korea and Vietnam. This is a man

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Speaker 2: who loved to be in danger. And I never saw

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Speaker 2: him afraid of any time. But when I mentioned the

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Speaker 2: word Mississippi too them, I could hear the shiver in

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Speaker 2: his voice. He said he wouldn't dare go to Mississippi.

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Speaker 2: So when you said the word Mississippi back in say

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, it inspired this feeling of dread, not

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Speaker 2: just in black people Mississippi, but all over the country.

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Speaker 1: Could the federal government not do anything or did they

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Speaker 1: not want to do anything in this time here? What

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Speaker 1: kind of power did they have over states?

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Speaker 3: They could do something, but they didn't have the will.

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Speaker 2: Back then, the Democratic Party was full of what they

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Speaker 2: called dick secrats. These were Southern senators who were Democrats,

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Speaker 2: but they were incredibly racists. And one of the failures

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Speaker 2: of the Democratic Party, particularly in the early twentieth century,

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Speaker 2: is that a lot of presidents, like FDR didn't want

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Speaker 2: to alienate the Southern Democrats and their party by coming

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Speaker 2: down too much on the side of black people, so

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Speaker 2: they had a hands off policy. A lot of politicians

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Speaker 2: on trying to deal with the brutality in Mississippi because

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Speaker 2: they didn't want to split the Democratic Party, and you

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Speaker 2: also got a factor into the Supreme Court. The Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court going back to the late nineteenth century had destroyed

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Speaker 2: a lot of possibility for racial progress with a series

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Speaker 2: of decisions that pretty much said, the federal government is

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Speaker 2: going to stay out of elections and states. We're going

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Speaker 2: to let states run their own elections. We're going to

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Speaker 2: turn a blind eye to the lunches into killing. So

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Speaker 2: that courts also created this environment where white people in

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Speaker 2: Mississippi could get away literally with murder.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what voter intimidation was, like, I'm assuming that's

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Speaker 1: an understatement for black people who are hoping to vote

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Speaker 1: in state election in Mississippi in the sixties, Well, it was.

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Speaker 2: A combination of physical and economic terror. If they printed

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Speaker 2: in the local newspaper that you had tried to vote,

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Speaker 2: and say you were a sharecropper who worked for a

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Speaker 2: white landowner, You were a poor person like Fanny lou Hamer,

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Speaker 2: who was a very well known black activist in Mississippi,

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Speaker 2: and you had maybe nine to eight children depending on you,

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Speaker 2: and you lived on this white landowner's property. They could

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Speaker 2: throw you off the property. They could fire you from

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Speaker 2: your job. You had no means to support yourself or

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Speaker 2: your family. That was one way they intimidated people. But

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Speaker 2: then other times it was just raw brutality. If you

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Speaker 2: were a black person you dared to go down to

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Speaker 2: courtall house to try to register to vote, they could

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Speaker 2: beat you senseless. They could come back later to your house,

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Speaker 2: kidnap you, and kill you.

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Speaker 3: Your body could disappear.

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Speaker 1: This sounds like an inevitable death sentence for any civil

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Speaker 1: rights activists in this state who are black in the sixties.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: If you were a civil rights activist, particularly a black

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Speaker 2: civil rights activist in Mississippi, I would compare it literally

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Speaker 2: to being a soldier in combat. Whereas a soldier would

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Speaker 2: go into battle not knowing if he would come back live.

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Speaker 2: There were so many civil rights activists who had the

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Speaker 2: same attitude. I don't know if I'm going to survive

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Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. I don't know if I

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Speaker 2: want to survive this month. I give you an example

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Speaker 2: how awful the conditions were when those three civil rights

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Speaker 2: workers disappeared and the FBI commenced this search throughout the state.

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Speaker 2: They were dragging all these rivers in Mississippi to look

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Speaker 2: for them. Before they found the bodies of the three

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Speaker 2: civil rights workers, they found the bodies of eight other

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Speaker 2: black men who have been brutalized. So Mississippi was literally

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Speaker 2: a graveyard of civil rights workers.

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Speaker 1: Set the scene for what happens. This is nineteen sixty seven.

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Speaker 1: Summertime introduced me to James Earl Cheney and Andrew Goodman

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Speaker 1: and Mickey Schwarner.

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Speaker 2: So James Earl Cheney is a young black man twenty

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Speaker 2: one years old at the time, and he grew up

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Speaker 2: in Mississippi, so he had no illusions about what he

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Speaker 2: was facing when he became a voter rights activists.

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Speaker 3: He was the type of god that had an incredible

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Speaker 3: amount of carriage.

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Speaker 2: He wore a badge for the NAACP in high school

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Speaker 2: was suspended back then. That's like wearing Black Lives Matter too,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, to a KKK parade or something. So

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Speaker 2: he's very brave. Unlike some black people in Mississippi, he

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Speaker 2: was not intimidated into silence, and he wanted to be

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Speaker 2: part of this political revolution that was coming to the state.

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Speaker 2: So when groups like snick Suit Non Violin Coordinated Committee, Corps,

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Speaker 2: all these other groups came, he joined them. He wanted

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Speaker 2: to be part of it, despite the fears and warnings

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Speaker 2: from the family and what could happen. Then you had

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Speaker 2: Andrew Goodman, a young Jewish man from New York and

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Speaker 2: he was part of this other great tradition in the

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Speaker 2: civil rights movement where Jewish people really identified with the

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Speaker 2: story of black people. And like a Jewish man was

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Speaker 2: the guy who wrote the song Strange Truth about Lynching.

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Speaker 2: So he came from that Jewish tradition of activism and

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Speaker 2: then grew out of Judaism and the emphasis on justice.

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Speaker 2: And he was a young, idealistic man, family of good means,

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Speaker 2: who came down to Mississippi, one of hundreds of other

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Speaker 2: whites to who wanted to come down or play that part.

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Speaker 2: And then you had Mickey Schwerner, who was kind of

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Speaker 2: a chubby guy with a goateee. And Ben Cheney told

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Speaker 2: me that if you close your eyes and you listened

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Speaker 2: to Mickey's speak, you was swear you were hearing a

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Speaker 2: black guy. He was one of those guys who had

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Speaker 2: already been in Mississippi for a year. He was a veteran,

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Speaker 2: He knew and He seemed to be one of these

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Speaker 2: white people who had a way of really making black

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Speaker 2: people feel comfortable.

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Speaker 3: He felt like family to people.

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Speaker 2: He really had a gift for not coming in with

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Speaker 2: this kind of attitude like I'm going to teach you things,

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Speaker 2: but he came in with attitude of humility, and he.

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Speaker 3: Had nicknames for people.

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Speaker 2: He called James Earl Cheney Bear, and he called Ben

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Speaker 2: Cheney Cub. He was just a jovial guy that a

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Speaker 2: lot of people aliked and also just incredibly brave just

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Speaker 2: to be there.

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Speaker 1: What brought Andrew and Mickey and James Earl together that

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Speaker 1: particular day.

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Speaker 2: They were one of many students there. One of the

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Speaker 2: big gold was to register voters. Black voters. They're wanted

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Speaker 2: their political power. One of the focal points for a

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Speaker 2: black political power in Mississippi and elsewhere is the black church.

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Speaker 2: It was one of the few institutions where black people

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Speaker 2: could go where they felt some degree of freedom from

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Speaker 2: white people. So they would have a lot of political

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Speaker 2: meetings at churches. They would a lot of civil rights meetings,

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Speaker 2: community drives for voting, and there were some black churches

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Speaker 2: that were burned. And those three came together because they

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Speaker 2: wanted to investigate these church burnings, and so they were

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Speaker 2: stopped for speeding by some Mississippi sheriffs. That was the

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Speaker 2: sensible purpose, We're stopping you for speeding, But that's how

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Speaker 2: they fell into the hands of these white law enforcement

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Speaker 2: offices Mississippi.

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Speaker 1: That summer Mississippi's and it's just hotter in hell in

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Speaker 1: the summer. So I'm assuming this is a hot night.

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Speaker 2: Hot humid night, and when you're driving on one of

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Speaker 2: those lonely Mississippi roads at night, it feels like you're

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Speaker 2: going back in time.

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Speaker 1: So they are going to go out and what's the plan.

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Speaker 1: They're going to go to visit this church to see

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Speaker 1: what happened.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and investigate see what happened. They probably knew

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Speaker 2: what happened, who was responsible for But this is just

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Speaker 2: an assumption of our But I think one of the

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Speaker 2: main purposes of people like them during that time was

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Speaker 2: to visit people when things like that happened, like a burning,

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Speaker 2: was to bolster their spirits, to keep up people's morale,

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Speaker 2: to make sure that the Native Mississippians wouldn't give up.

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Speaker 2: They weren't just detectives. I think they were also trying

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Speaker 2: to keep up the morale of people that they were

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Speaker 2: trying to serve.

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Speaker 1: So they start to drive and now is it evening time?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the evening and they were ambushed by a

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Speaker 2: group of up to nineteen men. Now a lot of

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Speaker 2: people get their sense for what happened from the movie

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Speaker 2: Mississippi Burning. But that's an incredibly inaccurate and insulting movie

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Speaker 2: on many levels. Because the movie opens up with them driving,

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Speaker 2: all three of them, driving along on this dark Mississippi

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Speaker 2: road at night, which is true. It was dark, it's lonely,

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Speaker 2: these little narrow roads ringed by these huge trees, and

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Speaker 2: out in these woods are probably a bodies of other

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Speaker 2: black men.

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Speaker 3: That part is true.

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Speaker 2: But in the movie, James Earl Chaney is sitting in

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Speaker 2: the bag and a white person is driving the car.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't even make sense.

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Speaker 2: James Earl Chaney was the one who knew those roles

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Speaker 2: better than anybody. His brother been told me that he

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Speaker 2: had driven on those roles so much, and he had

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Speaker 2: been chased by the KKK and all those people so

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Speaker 2: much that it was like he knew it like the

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Speaker 2: back of his hand. He had defied death before he

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Speaker 2: got on the road that night.

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Speaker 1: They're taking a huge risk by going out there, though,

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Speaker 1: why go at night?

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Speaker 2: Went oh wait, well they were arrested. They didn't have

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Speaker 2: control over when and where they would go.

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Speaker 1: Okay, they're stopped by the sheriff and they're arrested under

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Speaker 1: what pretense? Why are they arrested speeding? You can be

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Speaker 1: arrested for speeding in Mississippi in nineteen sixty four.

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Speaker 2: If you're black, you could be arrested for virtually anything

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Speaker 2: in Mississippi, like, for example, it used to be a

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Speaker 2: prime called reckless eyeballing. You could literally be arrested if

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Speaker 2: you looked at a white person the wrong way. In fact,

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Speaker 2: if you're a black man, if you looked at a

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Speaker 2: white woman the wrong way.

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Speaker 3: You could be killed.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's how we had emmittt till he supposedly

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Speaker 2: flirted with a white woman, he was tortured and killed.

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Speaker 2: That's the state of Arley liveded. And that's what made

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Speaker 2: James Earl Janey such an incredible man. He knew all

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Speaker 2: this and had tried to take his life before, and

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Speaker 2: he had evaded that.

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Speaker 3: He was still going back out there taking those risks.

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Speaker 1: He was stopped by the sheriff before.

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Speaker 2: Well, he wasn't stopped so much. But his brother Ben

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Speaker 2: told me is that they couldn't get him because he

259
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Speaker 2: was such a great driver. He would drive with his

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Speaker 2: lights off through these roads at night that he knew

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Speaker 2: like the back of his hand, and they couldn't get them.

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Speaker 2: But this night they had a mob really waiting for them,

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Speaker 2: and he couldn't get away.

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Speaker 3: He had two other people with him.

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Speaker 1: Initially, they're going down these dark roads. They're stopped by

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Speaker 1: the sheriff James, and Andrew and Mickey. They're arrested for speeding.

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Speaker 1: They are taken to the county jail.

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Speaker 2: And then they were let out. But they were let

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Speaker 2: out not for freedom. They were let out so they

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Speaker 2: could be led to their death. Really, and that's what happened.

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Speaker 1: How many law enforcement officers are we saying from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning colluded. It's two that you name, right, but

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Speaker 1: there's probably more.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were nineteen men that were originally arrested, but

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Speaker 2: there were two sheriffs in particular that became really well known,

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Speaker 2: Cecil Price and Lawrence. And those are the two people

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Speaker 2: that I know about for sure. That might have been

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Speaker 2: more in that nineteen, but those are the two I

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Speaker 2: know about. Those are the two that most people know about.

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Speaker 1: So what happens These three guys get back into their car.

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Speaker 1: They're irritated, I'm sure, and then they drive off.

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Speaker 2: The car was stopping, they were ambushed. From the accounts

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Speaker 2: and talking to Ben, James Earl Cheney was the first

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Speaker 2: one who was murdered. And he wasn't just murdered, he

285
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Speaker 2: was tortured beforehand. He was with with iron chains. He

286
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Speaker 2: was beaten so savagely that his bones were literally crushed.

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Speaker 2: Ben told me that when he looked at the autopsy

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Speaker 2: photos for his brother, that looked like he had been

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Speaker 2: in the plane crash, and they did other things to

290
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Speaker 2: him that were pretty brutal to desecrate the body. So

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Speaker 2: they did this in front of Andrew and Mickey, who

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Speaker 2: was still alive at first. So imagine this. You're seeing

293
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Speaker 2: this man, your friend, being tortured and killed in front

294
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Speaker 2: of you, and you know you're next. And then the

295
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Speaker 2: account comes that Mickey as he bent over to look

296
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Speaker 2: at James Earl Cheney's body was shot through the heart.

297
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Speaker 2: And then Andrew Goodman he was shot as he tried

298
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Speaker 2: to run away. And their indications that even when those

299
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Speaker 2: three men were shot and they were buried in the grave.

300
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Speaker 2: That their reports that maybe even Andrew might have still

301
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Speaker 2: been alive, but they were tortured and it was a

302
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Speaker 2: mob of men, and those kind of details really stayed

303
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Speaker 2: with ben Cheney.

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Speaker 1: How does the Cheney family find out any of this.

305
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Speaker 2: It was a huge public event, It was a huge

306
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Speaker 2: political event. It was a huge national story because there

307
00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,720
Speaker 2: was so much focus already on Mississippi because all those

308
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Speaker 2: white volunteers had come down to Mississippi. You see, part

309
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Speaker 2: of the strategy of the civil rights movement in those times,

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Speaker 2: young black activists realized if black people are the only

311
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Speaker 2: ones dying in Mississippi, like James Earl Cheney, no one

312
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Speaker 2: will pay attention. So part of the reason they wanted

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Speaker 2: white volunteers to come down is so they figured that

314
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Speaker 2: if white volunteers were there, if they were facing they

315
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Speaker 2: were getting beaten, that the nation would care more about them.

316
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Speaker 2: So when old white volunteers went down there in the summer,

317
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Speaker 2: the country was following this, and so when they disappeared,

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Speaker 2: most people immediately knew that they were dead. They pretty

319
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Speaker 2: much knew, and so the only question was not where

320
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Speaker 2: are they, you know, are they alive? But the question

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Speaker 2: is can we find their bodies? And so that's how

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Speaker 2: the family found out. It was just all in the news.

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Speaker 2: It was a huge national story. I still remember those

324
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Speaker 2: posters of those three men when you see it. When

325
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Speaker 2: I see that post of the day, I feel this

326
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Speaker 2: shutter because it was so wildly distributed, and when people

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Speaker 2: saw those posts, most people knew they were looking at

328
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Speaker 2: dead men.

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Speaker 1: They find the bodies. How long does it take for

330
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Speaker 1: them to find the bodies?

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Speaker 2: I think it took about forty four days for them

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Speaker 2: to find the bodies. And before they found.

333
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Speaker 1: The bodies forty four days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, white politicians were saying it was a hux. You know,

335
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Speaker 2: it didn't really happen. They were denying it. People knew

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Speaker 2: that these guys had lost their lives.

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Speaker 1: So they find the bodies. They're degraded, I'm assuming summer

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Speaker 1: in Mississippi, but they could still figure out what happened. Horrible,

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Speaker 1: horrible development for the Cheney family and particularly for his

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Speaker 1: twelve year old brother, Right Ben, When.

341
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Speaker 2: You ask what happens, there are kind of two levels

342
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Speaker 2: to the answer. On a political level, what happened is

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Speaker 2: it built up pressure so that President Johnson at the

344
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Speaker 2: time was able to use some of the outrage over

345
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Speaker 2: what happened in Mississippi to push for the successful passage

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Speaker 2: of the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act, So that

347
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Speaker 2: was taking some good out of the tragedy. But on

348
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Speaker 2: a personal level, for the family of James Earl Cheney

349
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Speaker 2: and for the families of Mickey Schwerner and Goodman, the

350
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Speaker 2: story about what happened really is what didn't happen. Nothing happened.

351
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Speaker 2: They could not successfully arrest and convict and charge anybody

352
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Speaker 2: for the murders of those three men, even though everybody

353
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Speaker 2: who did it they had a trial in nineteen sixty seven.

354
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Speaker 3: You're talking about like small southern towns.

355
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Speaker 2: When people like that were murdered, the typical thing was

356
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Speaker 2: people knew who did it, and that was See, that

357
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Speaker 2: was part of why they did it.

358
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Speaker 3: They wanted people to know.

359
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Speaker 2: They wanted people to know because that's how they kept

360
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Speaker 2: people terrorized, and that's how they kept their power. And

361
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 2: they wanted people to know because they believed that no

362
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,600
Speaker 2: Southern jury would convict him, and they weren't as worried

363
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Speaker 2: about people knowing.

364
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Speaker 3: And they were right.

365
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Speaker 2: No Southern white jury would convict any of those men

366
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Speaker 2: that nineteen men were arrested. No Southern jury would convict

367
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Speaker 2: any of those men, and the murders of these three

368
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Speaker 2: men they had to trial a little later, I think

369
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Speaker 2: it was nineteen sixty seven, and they convicted some on

370
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Speaker 2: civil rights chargers. No one did more than like six

371
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 2: years or so. But no one even to this day

372
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:39,359
Speaker 2: was successfully convicted for the murder of those three civil

373
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,639
Speaker 2: rights workers. Now there was another man named Edgar Ray killing.

374
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Speaker 2: He was arrested in two thousand and five, about forty

375
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Speaker 2: one years later.

376
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Speaker 3: He was the dream Leader.

377
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Speaker 2: He was successfully charged in those deaths, but it was

378
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Speaker 2: manslaughter and he spent the rest of his days in

379
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 2: prison and died at prison. But even he it was manslaughter,

380
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 2: not murder that finally put him in prison. So that's

381
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Speaker 2: one of the things I was trying to with my book.

382
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,360
Speaker 2: When people hear today about the Mississippi killings, the murders,

383
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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people assume, because there was

384
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,959
Speaker 2: so much publicity, because it's so well known, who did it.

385
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,879
Speaker 2: You know, Jess was found that they convicted somebody in

386
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Speaker 2: those murders.

387
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Speaker 3: They didn't. They never did.

388
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Speaker 2: That was the type of knowledge that ben Cheney and

389
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Speaker 2: the rest of his family had to live with the

390
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 2: rest of their life. But everybody knew killed them, but

391
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 2: nothing was ever really done about it, and you carry

392
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,960
Speaker 2: that around the rest of your life.

393
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 3: Not only that.

394
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Speaker 2: I remember talking to James Earl Chaney's daughter Angela. She

395
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,440
Speaker 2: would go to a shopping center and she would see

396
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Speaker 2: a security guard, a white security guard who was right

397
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,440
Speaker 2: around at the shopping center, and every time she saw him,

398
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 2: she felt just not of bitterness and anger. And when

399
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 2: she saw him, you know why she felt it because

400
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 2: that man was one of the sheriffs who killed her

401
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 2: father and she seeing him walk around free. That happened

402
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 2: all the time in it South, not just with those

403
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,880
Speaker 2: free civil rights workers, but other civil rights workers who

404
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:59,359
Speaker 2: were killed. Other people like Viola Luzzo, Reverend James Reed

405
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 2: weren't prosecuted. They just walked around in freedom and everybody knew.

406
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 3: Who did it?

407
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,120
Speaker 1: Tell me about after James Earl's death with the Cheney family,

408
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 1: because the terrorism doesn't end with his death.

409
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,159
Speaker 2: It wasn't enough to kill James Earl Cheney. They still

410
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 2: harassed the family, death threats, assaults, gets just damaging the house, vandalism.

411
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,480
Speaker 3: They hounded the family. I mean even after they killed them.

412
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 2: And so Ben Cheney, who was twelve at the time

413
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 2: when his brother was killed, he didn't feel safe living

414
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 2: there in Mississippi anymore, so he was forced to flee

415
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 2: to New York City. His family sent him there and

416
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 2: that's where he spent pretty much the rest of his

417
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 2: teenage years in New York City because he couldn't live

418
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:43,880
Speaker 2: in Mississippi anymore.

419
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 3: It wasn't safe. I tell you how bad it is.

420
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 2: It wasn't just right after the murders in sixty four

421
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 2: that white people in Mississippi harassed the Cheney family. When

422
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 2: I went to Mississippi in your early nineties and I

423
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 2: met Ben Cheney, we went on this really cold winter day,

424
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 2: snow everywhere. We went to the cemetery to pay respects

425
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 2: to his brother. And when we got there, Ben looked

426
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 2: at the gravestone for his brother, and they had been

427
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,440
Speaker 2: shot full of holes. So people even recently were trying

428
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 2: to re vandalize in his brother's grave. He told me

429
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 2: that people had even tried to get into the ground

430
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 2: to unearth the coffin to desegrate his brother's body. Just

431
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 2: imagine that type of hate.

432
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:22,920
Speaker 3: That hate.

433
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: This is not nineteen sixty five when this was happening

434
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: or sixty four. This is very recent. So that's how

435
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,120
Speaker 2: deep to hatred.

436
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 1: Is, Isn't that also fear? Yes, right, because of the

437
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 1: power that James Earl Cheney's name and his memory had.

438
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: This was a tremendous amount of anger and fear that

439
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,680
Speaker 1: he had so much weight, he had influence, his death

440
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 1: had so much influence.

441
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think it's a good point that when

442
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 2: you have that type of hatred there's fear involved. I

443
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 2: think it was more than just fear of the power

444
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,199
Speaker 2: of James Earl Cheney's death and the symbolism of this

445
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 2: young man in his carriage. A lot of it's just

446
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 2: fear of losing political dominance, economic doming is changing.

447
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, like I keep them thinking.

448
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 2: People think when they look back at those murders of

449
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: those three civil rights workers, and they think people just

450
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 2: murdered them because they hated them, simple as that. I

451
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,919
Speaker 2: don't think people understand that there is a political strategy

452
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 2: behind these murders. There was a political strategy behind lynching.

453
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 2: These things have a purpose, and that is to make

454
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 2: sure black people don't have any kind of political power

455
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,359
Speaker 2: or had any kind of economic power. There would threatened

456
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 2: white dominance. It's not just hatred as a strategy behind it.

457
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: So this story could have ended here. Your story could

458
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: have ended with the death of James Earld Cheney and

459
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: Andrew Goodman and Mickey Schwarner. This would have been another

460
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,960
Speaker 1: tragedy that there was some kind of good with, you know,

461
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: lbja's nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act. But that's not

462
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 1: where it ends with this family. It continues to sort

463
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,640
Speaker 1: of haunt them in so many different ways. So pick

464
00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 1: back up with maybe the funeral, that iconic photo of

465
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: Ben Cheney just breaking down during the funeral service.

466
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: Ben he really didn't comprehend that his brother had been

467
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: killed until he went to that funeral that day.

468
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: That's when it really hit.

469
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: Him because his big brother had so often successfully evaded

470
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 2: all those white folks that were trying to do him

471
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: harm in Mississippi, and he looked up to him. He

472
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 2: was his big brother. He thought he was like invulnerable.

473
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 2: This guy was so smart, he was so resourceful. And

474
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 2: when he goes to the funeral that day, it really

475
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 2: hits him when he sees that cough and going on

476
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: the ground that I've lost my big brother. It wasn't

477
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 2: just like sadness and grief that he felt. It was

478
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: also a tremendous anger. Because he knew that there were

479
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 2: white people who did this in Mississippi, he began to

480
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: develop his hatred toward white people.

481
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 1: I'm talking with author John Blake about how he reported

482
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: on the murders of three civil rights workers in Mississippi

483
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four. Blake spoke with several members of

484
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: James Earl Cheney's family, including his daughter and his younger

485
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: brother Ben. At this point in the story, Ben is

486
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: growing increasingly angry over James's death, and it's about to

487
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: lead him to a very bad decision.

488
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: He knew that there were white people who did this

489
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: in Mississippi, he began to develop his hatred toward.

490
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: White people, and that would not be the environment that

491
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: he came from in the Cheney family, right. This is

492
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 1: sparked from what happened to his brother No.

493
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: No, one of the ways that black families survived psychologically,

494
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: not just physically, but psychologically growing up in the gymcrow

495
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: era in the South, when you're surrounded by that much

496
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 2: kind of terror, and you have so many people hating you,

497
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 2: and you're humiliated, and.

498
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 3: All these things happened to you constantly.

499
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 2: A lot of black southers took their refuge in faith

500
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 2: and their religion man that gave them tremendous, like spiritual

501
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: resources to deal with that. And one of the things

502
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: you heard King and all those people talk about is

503
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 2: that you can't allow a man to drag you so

504
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: low that you would hate him. Cheney's family is like

505
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 2: many other black families. They did not preach this type

506
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 2: of hatred like many they were. It's about faith. It

507
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: was about you can't let this stuff consume you. The

508
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: type of hatred that ben Cheney felt wasn't something he

509
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: learned from his family. It was something he absorbed for

510
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 2: watching what white people did to his brother.

511
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: He sent to New York because he can no longer

512
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: be in Mississippi and doesn't want to be there. I'm assuming,

513
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 1: so he goes to New York, which is more progressive

514
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: than Mississippi.

515
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: I'm assuming New York had then and now its own

516
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 2: problems with segregation that people don't talk about. But it

517
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: was definitely not Mississippi, and it wasn't just New York.

518
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 2: He spent most of his time in Harlem. To be

519
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: black in Harlem in his sixties were one of the

520
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: best places to be, particularly for somebody who comes from Mississippi,

521
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: a black man who grew up seeing black people tiptoe

522
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: around white people, afraid all the time. You go to

523
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: New York, the scene of the Harlem renaissance in the twenties,

524
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: you have this huge black arts movement, you have all

525
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 2: this black nationalism. This is the place where Malcolm X

526
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: would be on the corner talking about white.

527
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 3: People and black people cheering them on.

528
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 2: He told me it was such a new world for him,

529
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: and it fired him up, and it made him feel

530
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: proud to be black. Psychologically, this helped him feel better

531
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: about himself and his people to be in New York.

532
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 1: So he goes to school in New York. Is he

533
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: successful there? No, So he's not destined for a conventional career.

534
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: What is his path once he's there?

535
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 3: He spent most of his time in Harlem.

536
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 2: He was he felt like he could create more change

537
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: outside the classroom. There were all these kind of black

538
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: liberation groups, black nationalist groups that were seizing the imagination

539
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 2: of young men like him. You know, the Black Panthers

540
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 2: were really popular, all these other black militant groups, and

541
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 2: so he felt more swept up by that as opposed

542
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: to the non violent doctor King stuff that he was

543
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: exposed to Mississippi. So he was like one of many

544
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 2: young black men who was caught up in that kind

545
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 2: of black nationalist movement of the late nineteen sixties.

546
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: So is it late teens or early twenties when things

547
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: really start to go awry for Ben?

548
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: April nineteen seventy. Ben was only like seventeen or eighteen

549
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 2: at the time. One of his friends asked him to

550
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 2: join him on a trip to visit a relative in Florida.

551
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: On the way there, this man told Ben the trip's

552
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 2: true purpose was to pick up these shipment of guns

553
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: and transport them to this Black liberation Army unit. So

554
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: he's on on this trip and what happens next is

555
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 2: at the end of this trip, four white people were

556
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: shot to death and two wounded during a murders free

557
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: that crossed Florida, North Carolina, and South Carolina. And so

558
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: at the age of eighteen, Ben was sentenced to life

559
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: in prison for the murder of a white insurance salesman.

560
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 3: In two college students, he.

561
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 2: Was acquitted the murder of before, so at eighteen, his

562
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: life is over pretty much.

563
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: Did he do it? Does he say he participated actively?

564
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 2: He says he didn't do it. He says I never

565
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: killed anyone. He says, I was charged and convicted primarily

566
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: because I would not tell after the acts were committed.

567
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 2: And he says, I didn't know the acts were going

568
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: to be committed ahead of time, and I did not

569
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: go with other cops that this person had kill someone.

570
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: But he spent the prime of his life the next

571
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: thirteen years in prison.

572
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: What was his experience in prison like as a black

573
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: man now in the early seventies, did he talk to

574
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: you about that?

575
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: He took a journey that a lot of black men

576
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: then and now take in prison. And that journey is

577
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: I think most associated with Malcolm X. That is, he

578
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 2: used that time to create a new version of himself,

579
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 2: reflect to read, to educate himself. Read all these books

580
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: about Malcolm X. He read George Orwell's Animal Farm, he

581
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: read the biographies of great people. He told me that

582
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 2: prison taught him patience, because in prison you have to

583
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 2: wait all the time. So I think in prison he

584
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: matured and he reinvented himself.

585
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 1: So in the world of activism, we've gone from the

586
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: pastism of his brother playing within the rules but not

587
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: white people's rules, but not breaking the law.

588
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: Right.

589
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: Then over to the other extreme of aggressive activism. Now

590
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: in prison, what is he doing, what does he think

591
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: Does he feel like he can still, despite this conviction,

592
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: do something to change of what's happening in the world

593
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: around him, either in or out of prison.

594
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 2: When he got out of prison and I talked to

595
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: him years after that his idealism had faded a bit.

596
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: He said that a lot of black people weren't really

597
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 2: prepared to pay the price for the type of revolution

598
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 2: that was needed. But his idealism may have faded in

599
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 2: some ways, but he never abandoned that because his new

600
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 2: mission became going back to Mississippi to try to win

601
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: justice for his brother. So he became this activist who's

602
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: going back to Mississippi agitating and trying to persuade people

603
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: and authorities to arrest and convict the men who killed

604
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: his brother.

605
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 1: So he realizes, obviously a lot of what has happened

606
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: in his life is connected to this one incredible tragedy. Yeah,

607
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 1: and that tragedy is connected nationally at this point. So

608
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: now he's really drilling back to who he is in

609
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: his roots. He goes back to Mississippi to finally get

610
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: justice for his brother. How does it go.

611
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: He tries to find justice, But in the sense, one could,

612
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: I think, argue that he never really found it because

613
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: nobody was ever convicted in the murder of his brother.

614
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: They most they got was a manslaughter charge for the

615
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: ring later, and they put him in prison when he

616
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: was eighty years old, and that's where he died. But

617
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: he had nineteen men arrested. Some of those men that

618
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: were arrested, they didn't do more than six years. So

619
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: one could argue that his quest to really win justice

620
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: for his brother was never realized. But at the same time,

621
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: I think what he did do you could argue that

622
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: this was something he did successfully.

623
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: He let the country know. He let a lot of

624
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: people know that.

625
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: You think that story ended back in sixty four when

626
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: my brother and those two men were murdered and some

627
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: men were arrested, I'm.

628
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 3: Trying to tell you it didn't end. Justice wasn't found.

629
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: So I think it showed a lot of people that

630
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: what happened to his brother was part of a larger patent,

631
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: that it happened to a lot of civil rights activists

632
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: who were murdered in the sixties 's was never found.

633
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: Did he contribute at all to the arrest of this

634
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: man who was eighty at the time.

635
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: Now, there was a reporter in Mississippi, Jerry Mitchell, a

636
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: white reporter who really did a great job of reminding

637
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: people about the murders in Mississippi, but also just about

638
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: all these other people that were killed during the sixties

639
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 2: and justice wasn't found for them. So it was this

640
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: reporter and they also had they had a great evidence

641
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 2: from the trials. You got to credit people in the

642
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: Justice department said we got to try to do this again.

643
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 2: People who didn't let this case go. So it it's

644
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: a lot of different groups. But Ben did his part

645
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: by keeping that case alive in the news media. He

646
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: could have just retired to his private life, but he

647
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: didn't do it. He used his name, even some of

648
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: the tragedy from his past to try to make something

649
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: good out of it.

650
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: And you said, who had a daughter? Did James Earl

651
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: have a daughter?

652
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: That was one of the most powerful ports of the

653
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 3: story to me.

654
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: A lot of people don't know this, but James Earl

655
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: Cheney had a daughter that was born about a week

656
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: after he was murdered.

657
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 3: Gosh.

658
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: And so she grew up in Mississippi, and like I

659
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, she grew up going to a shopping center

660
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: and seeing one of the men who was responsible for

661
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: her father's death. She would see this man and just

662
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 2: feel this just tremendous tension and bitterness. And I asked her,

663
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: did you ever feel tempted to go up to him

664
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: and say something like, you know you're murdered my father,

665
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: I'll get you. And she said no, She said, because

666
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: if I hated him, I would become just like him,

667
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: and hats what took my father out of the world.

668
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: So I don't want to go down that route. She

669
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: told me she grew up in Mississippi. She didn't let

670
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: people know who she was because she was afraid. So

671
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: his daughter was afraid. And she told me that she

672
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: would go to class and she would hear people talk

673
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: about the murders, and they would talk about her father,

674
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: and she would see that picture from the wanted post

675
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: of her father, but she wouldn't tell her classmates that

676
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: that's my father.

677
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: So the Cheney family continues to live in Mississippi. Is

678
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: that right?

679
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: For last? I know?

680
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: Angela does the daughter last to know? She's married to

681
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: a police officer. She had four children. James or Cheney's

682
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: mother died recently, not too long ago. She lived long,

683
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: But I don't know if the other sended family, if

684
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: they're still in Mississippi.

685
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: How do you think this story affected you. I'm assuming

686
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: it resonated. We've already sort of touched on that. You

687
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: spoke about your father, you travel to Mississippi. What was

688
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: your feeling reporting on this?

689
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: Well, it had a profound effect on me because it

690
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: kind of forced me to redefine patriotism and carriage. What

691
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: I mean by this is specifically today, if you get

692
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: off of a plane and you see a man in

693
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: a uniform a woman in uniform stand up, people will

694
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: applaud and say thank you for their service. And you

695
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: look at TV and you see all these movies about

696
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: great war heroes like Save in Private Ryan, and we

697
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: talk about those soldiers that stormed the beaches in Normandy,

698
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: and we say they're great Americans, and look how courageous

699
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: it were. When I began to learn more about people

700
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: like James Earl Cheney, it occurred to me in many

701
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: ways that they were just as courageous because they knew

702
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: that what they were doing that they could easily lose

703
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: their life. They didn't have flags, they didn't have guns,

704
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: they didn't even have a country backing them up. A

705
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 2: lot of the country was opposed to what they were doing.

706
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: A lot of the country thought they were commonists to troublemakers.

707
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: But they believed so deeply in these ideas about democracy,

708
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: about the importance of the vote, that they were really

709
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: literally willing to die for it. And I never really

710
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: thought of courage in that form. I always thought of

711
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: courage as being attacked to someone carrying a gun, but

712
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: I never thought of carriage when you had someone like

713
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: James Earl Cheney, a black young man in Mississippi, where

714
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: these people didn't even see him as human beings. A

715
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 2: lot of the country didn't believe what he was doing,

716
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: but he did it nonethe less because he believed in

717
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: the country. So that gave me a new appreciation of

718
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: the kind of patriotism that they had. I don't think

719
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: we talk enough about them as being just great patriots.

720
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: But secondly, what it showed me is that for us,

721
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 2: a lot of these stories are passages and history books,

722
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: but for them and their family. It's like it happened yesterday.

723
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: They're still dealing with that. I was talking to Taylor

724
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: Branch who's a famous civil rights author, and he said

725
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: that the families of people like James Earl Chaney and

726
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: Andrew Goodman, they are like families of combat soldiers that

727
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: in some ways they're like they're dealing with post traumatic

728
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 2: stress syndrome. All these things that happened to people like

729
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: James Earl Chaney. There were people that James Arl Chaney

730
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: who survived, who went on to live their life, but

731
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: a lot of the things that happened to them, the

732
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 2: way they were arrested, the way they were torture, the

733
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 2: way they were beaten, they suffered post traumatic stress syndrome

734
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: throughout the rest of their life. They still had to

735
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: deal with all the things that they went through. Some

736
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: of them broke psychologically. It's not like there's a retirement

737
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: plan for these civil rights workers, or we throw parades

738
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: for them, or we applaud them and say thank you

739
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 2: for their service, but they're still dealing with their act effects.

740
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 3: So that's another thing that.

741
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 2: Story really showed me, is that this stuff that happened

742
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: in the past is still happening to people that are

743
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: alive today.

744
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: What is the more common retribution though, for people who

745
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: are alive today, who are the James Earl Cheneys of

746
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: your generation, of our generation.

747
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: Well, fortunately we're not in a place where it's common

748
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 2: where a black person trying to register the vote it's

749
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 2: going to be murdered. But we're now going through what

750
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: many consider, and I do consider, the most sustained attack

751
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 2: against voting rights since the gen Crow era. If James

752
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 2: Earl Cheney, Andrew Goodman, and Mickey Schwerder stepped out in

753
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: today's world and looked at what's happening in Congress with

754
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: voting rights, one of the tragic things would be is.

755
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 3: That it would seem so familiar to them.

756
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: A lot of the same voter suppression strategies, all these

757
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: kind of different things people try to do to make

758
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: sure black people didn't have political power.

759
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: They're doing it now.

760
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: So as far as retribution, ask you a question, when

761
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: people try to combat that they're not getting killed, but

762
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 2: there's this kind of almost like a civic equivalent of

763
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: murder where they're not being allowed to vote or it's

764
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 2: becoming more difficult.

765
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: Was this one of the tougher stories for you to

766
00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: report on.

767
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the thing that got me is that

768
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 2: the depth of hatred, the way they murdered James Earl Chaney,

769
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: the way he desecrated his body, when I began to

770
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 2: realize that.

771
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 3: There wasn't just hatred, that there.

772
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: Was a political strategy behind it, that it was about power,

773
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: and those things really stay with me. And when I see,

774
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: for example, today, when I saw that insurrection at the Capitol,

775
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 2: and I saw a noose hanging out of the Capitol building,

776
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: and I saw a white demonstrator current a Confederate flag

777
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,359
Speaker 2: through the Capitol of rotunda, when I saw the look

778
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: of anger murder on those faces who were so angry

779
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: about this election, it just showed me how this type

780
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: of hatred is so durable, it's so adaptable, and it's

781
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: still here.

782
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: What is the story of James Earl Chaney.

783
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: It shows how far a part of America is willing

784
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: to go to deprive black people voting rights.

785
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: When we talk about voting.

786
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 2: Rights today, it tends to be kind of abstract act

787
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: and kind of legal. We talk about voter ID laws,

788
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: we talk about this. I don't think most Americans know

789
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: that there is a long history of people murdering and

790
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 2: torturing black people who were trying to vote.

791
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: Then.

792
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 3: I don't think people really get that.

793
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 2: So I think this story kind of shows the lengths

794
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: people were willing to go to make sure that they

795
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: could maintain political dominance. But the second theme to the

796
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: story to me, that that stands out is when I

797
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 2: alluded to earlier when I talked about historical amnesia.

798
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 3: When I did this story.

799
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: And I would go around and talk about it in

800
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: my book, so many people didn't know this history. So

801
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 2: many people didn't know that no killer was ever successfully

802
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: convicted in the murder of these men. So many people

803
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: didn't know about the brutality of that era. The fight

804
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: is not just over what happened then, but the fight

805
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: is over the present and how we're going to look

806
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: at this country. And I just think there are all

807
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: these huge forces that want people to forget this, that

808
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: just wanted to oh away, that don't want people to

809
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: learn about this. I keep on thinking about, you know, Angela,

810
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: James Earl Cheney's daughter, what if she spoke up in

811
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 2: class and said that was my father. What if she

812
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 2: told people this is what my family went through. This

813
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: is what he was like, she could have helped, but

814
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: what a comfortable But would a teacher be comfortable with

815
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 2: her speaking up in class now? Would a teacher feel

816
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 2: comfortable even talking about that? And how complex that case

817
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 2: is when people are putting so much pressure on people

818
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: not to talk about systemic racism or critical race theory

819
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: even though they can't define it. So I just think

820
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 2: it's really important to keep on telling these stories about

821
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: James Earl Cheney and how complex that story was, and

822
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 2: how wasn't this neat story of good and evil bad

823
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 2: guy sent to jail that is a lot more complex

824
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: than that.

825
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,720
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, the hot Fields

826
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: came over the state line and basically hunted down Harmon

827
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: McCoy and killed them.

828
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: Some historians say that didn't begin the feud.

829
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: Not much happened until Randall McCoy's hog went missing and

830
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 2: he founded in a hatfield Hog Pen.

831
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

832
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the year This has

833
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more media production Alexis and

834
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapan is our sound designer.

835
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. Curtis Heath does

836
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and Ilsa Brink

837
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff,

838
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook

839
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,879
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840
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Speaker 1: a historical true crime story that could use some attention

843
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844
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,040
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845
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