1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

7
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

8
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

13
00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, All right, Kate, how are you?

14
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,880
Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I have a very important question for you. Okay,

15
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,200
Speaker 1: if you were to pick any summertime destination for you

16
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,880
Speaker 1: to unplug, No, Paul Holes is not available for an investigation. No,

17
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,360
Speaker 1: he's not available for buried bones or small town dicks.

18
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,240
Speaker 1: What would you do to completely unplug? Where would you go?

19
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,760
Speaker 2: Well, I would take my jeep out into the middle

20
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,600
Speaker 2: of nowhere, somewhere in the Rocky Mountains. Now, there's some

21
00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,960
Speaker 2: bucket list trails that I'd like to take. The jeep

22
00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 2: on particularly out in the Tellwride area. You know, I've

23
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,440
Speaker 2: never been there and just looking at the scenery and

24
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,320
Speaker 2: watching YouTube videos of other off roaders, you know, traveling,

25
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,160
Speaker 2: it's just like it's God's country, you know, and so

26
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 2: I I'd love to get out there with the jeep,

27
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,560
Speaker 2: do some dispersed camping and just unplug.

28
00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,800
Speaker 1: You are such a cheap date. I mean that that's free,

29
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:03,360
Speaker 1: isn't it. I mean you're just bringing beef jerky with

30
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,280
Speaker 1: you and a little bit of coffee and that's bringing

31
00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 1: YOURKVA and that's pretty much it.

32
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,720
Speaker 2: Right, Well, it's a little bit more than that. But

33
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, the jeep is not cheap. You know they say,

34
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,239
Speaker 2: you know, jeep just empty every pocket to j E

35
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,399
Speaker 2: E P right And never heard that. Yeah, no, it's

36
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 2: a you know, it's a pricey hobby. If you will,

37
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 2: if you want to, you know, do it safely, do

38
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,920
Speaker 2: it right, and then have the equipment like for the

39
00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 2: disperse camping. It's not not a cheap thing at all.

40
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,840
Speaker 1: Now, did you say Cora or no Cora, No Cora.

41
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,359
Speaker 2: In fact, the way, you know, I've got a little

42
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,680
Speaker 2: two door jeep and in order to store everything, cors

43
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,560
Speaker 2: is too big of a dog, and she is she's clumsy.

44
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,440
Speaker 2: So you know, the entire back of my jeep with

45
00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,360
Speaker 2: the shelving I've got back there, would not fit a dog.

46
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 2: And she cannot ride in the front passenger seat. She

47
00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 2: just is awkward. It does not like that. Yeah, that's

48
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,000
Speaker 2: just not her thing at all. She can go in

49
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 2: the back. Yeah, my wife has a Honda Pilot and

50
00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,120
Speaker 2: so she goes in the back of much larger space.

51
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,000
Speaker 2: It will go hiking, but you know, a long trip

52
00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,120
Speaker 2: and the jeep is not chorus thing at all.

53
00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 1: So first she's attacked by a bear, and now Dad

54
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:20,919
Speaker 1: is calling her awkward.

55
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,520
Speaker 2: That's not I'm just being honest.

56
00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: That's not good for her self esteem. I have two

57
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,919
Speaker 1: awkward dogs, so I can, but I would never say

58
00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,760
Speaker 1: it to their face. Well, the reason I bring it

59
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,080
Speaker 1: up is because when I think about summertime destinations, one

60
00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 1: of my most favorite states is Maine, and I love

61
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,320
Speaker 1: Maine in the summer. And we're talking about a story

62
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,120
Speaker 1: set in Maine a long time ago tune or in

63
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,440
Speaker 1: something years ago. When I was reading through it, I

64
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,160
Speaker 1: was thinking, oh my gosh, Maine would be my summertime destination.

65
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,240
Speaker 1: Getting something on a lake or a pond. I don't

66
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,680
Speaker 1: even need to be on an ocean. I just wanted,

67
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,360
Speaker 1: you know, to be there where it's cooler, because you know,

68
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,360
Speaker 1: by June in all it can be one hundred and two,

69
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 1: one hundred and three and everything's wilting. So I was

70
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,800
Speaker 1: thinking what would be sort of nice and crisp and

71
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,000
Speaker 1: with a breeze, and so my mind went to Maine,

72
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 1: which is a wonderful place.

73
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've never been there. Of course, I've seen,

74
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 2: you know, some movies that were shot there, and it

75
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,479
Speaker 2: looks like a beautiful location in the ocean. You'd mentioned

76
00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 2: the ocean, you know, the rugged ocean. That is cool.

77
00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 2: It's like northern California coast, you know from my past.

78
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,320
Speaker 2: So I would love to get out to Maine.

79
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,040
Speaker 3: Yep. It's a great place.

80
00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,719
Speaker 1: And you use the word rugged, which actually, strangely to me,

81
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,320
Speaker 1: fits into this story about what we're talking about, which

82
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,480
Speaker 1: is a story that is a really really big family tragedy.

83
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,200
Speaker 1: So you know, I like to give a disclaimer at

84
00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 1: the front of these stories. We do talk about the

85
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 1: murders of children, and we do talk about suicide. In

86
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,919
Speaker 1: this story, it's set in eighteen oh six, which I

87
00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,680
Speaker 1: feel like much of this country was rugged territory at

88
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,080
Speaker 1: this point. I'm anxious to hear your reaction to all

89
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,919
Speaker 1: this because it's very, very twist, attorney. So let's go

90
00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,200
Speaker 1: ahead and set the scene. So eighteen o six, one

91
00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,119
Speaker 1: of our older cases, eighteen o six, So you're gonna

92
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,760
Speaker 1: this is I have a note in here that I

93
00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,240
Speaker 1: was going to bring up later on, but I'm going

94
00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,719
Speaker 1: to bring up now. I mean, this is three decades

95
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,040
Speaker 1: before organized police in the United States, So you're talking

96
00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,479
Speaker 1: about at this point, anyone investigating a murder is kind

97
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,480
Speaker 1: of a band of citizens, good hearted, we hope people.

98
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 1: So already I'm a little wary of where we're going

99
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,920
Speaker 1: to be going with the story because we have a

100
00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:40,799
Speaker 1: really big murder scene to deal with and very inexperienced investigators.

101
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that's interesting. I didn't realize that

102
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:48,039
Speaker 2: there wasn't any organized law enforcement in the early eighteen hundreds,

103
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 2: you know. I'm now immediately envisioning sort of this ad

104
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 2: hoc community watch group, you know, and that's how people

105
00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,640
Speaker 2: were policing themselves. That's interesting.

106
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 1: They had the occasional sheriff and deputies, you know, constables

107
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 1: floating about, but an organized police force which was formed

108
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 1: after England's first organized police force that wouldn't happen until

109
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,839
Speaker 1: basically the eighteen thirties. So you are on your own,

110
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,000
Speaker 1: as you will find out here soon if something happens

111
00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: to your family, which is what we figure out happens here.

112
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,000
Speaker 1: It isn't often where I feel like there is such

113
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,520
Speaker 1: a clear indicator from this early time in history that

114
00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,520
Speaker 1: really terrible things that to us these days feel like,

115
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, an outlier like, ah, this this is a

116
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,720
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime event when we're talking about a

117
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 1: lot of people in one family who are murdered. And

118
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 1: the more of these stories that you and I do,

119
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 1: the more I just realize, boy, this has just happened

120
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,080
Speaker 1: for so long and for all similar reasons. So you're

121
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,040
Speaker 1: gonna your insight here is going to be pretty crucial,

122
00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 1: I think.

123
00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,400
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm looking forward to hearing it.

124
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,119
Speaker 1: Okay, eighteen oh six in what is now the state

125
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,600
Speaker 1: of Maine, but at this time Maine was actually a

126
00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,360
Speaker 1: part of Massachusetts. That's how far back we're going where

127
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 1: the state lines are changing. We're specifically in Augusta, which

128
00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:19,680
Speaker 1: I've never been to it's a sleepy small town with

129
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 1: about twelve hundred residents, and one of the most prominent

130
00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: is the family called the Purrington family, and it is

131
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 1: led by a forty six year old man named Captain

132
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,480
Speaker 1: James Perrington. He was in the local militia and seventeen

133
00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,480
Speaker 1: seventy six happened, So this is what now I have

134
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 1: to do math thirty years ago, so he could have

135
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,480
Speaker 1: been in the militia and then with what happens in

136
00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,320
Speaker 1: the years that follow after the American Revolutionary War, but

137
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 1: he certainly was somebody with a military background, somebody who

138
00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 1: was very well respected. So he's the one leading this family,

139
00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 1: just so that we know who everybody is. It's a

140
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,480
Speaker 1: little confusing because we've got two James's that are happening here.

141
00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,200
Speaker 1: But I'll try to kind of pull them apart. There's

142
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 1: also two Martha's. One is part of the family and

143
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,360
Speaker 1: one is somebody who's an observer who gives us some

144
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,640
Speaker 1: really important insights. So I'll say one Martha versus the other.

145
00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,200
Speaker 1: I'll say James Junior and James Senior, just to try

146
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,120
Speaker 1: to keep everybody straight. But the patriarch is married to

147
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:26,280
Speaker 1: a woman named Betsy she's forty five, So we have

148
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,320
Speaker 1: a forty six year old married to a forty five

149
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 1: year old. They have quite a long marriage, decades long.

150
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:37,040
Speaker 1: And Betsy gives birth to twelve kids, so four die

151
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 1: in infancy, and then they have eight children that range

152
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,560
Speaker 1: from eighteen months to nineteen years old. That is the

153
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 1: range we're talking about here. And we've talked about families

154
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,160
Speaker 1: like this before, really large families who are not quite

155
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 1: in the countryside, but in small town, small area, and

156
00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,760
Speaker 1: there is a risk of being isolated because because if

157
00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,800
Speaker 1: somebody comes in and hurts somebody in the family, there

158
00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,679
Speaker 1: might be an opportunity for the killer to easily get

159
00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 1: away because we're not in a big city.

160
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:08,640
Speaker 3: You know.

161
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 1: The flip side is we're in the countryside, ish, we're

162
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,440
Speaker 1: in a small town, and that means that there probably

163
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,040
Speaker 1: is a certain amount of protection. Everybody knows each other.

164
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,160
Speaker 1: So there's this interesting for me dichotomy of the countryside

165
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,760
Speaker 1: being both safe and also not safe if you happen

166
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,440
Speaker 1: to be on the wrong end of a crime.

167
00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pros and cons. Just like in any type

168
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,760
Speaker 2: of neighborhood, there's pros and cons from a security standpoint.

169
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,160
Speaker 2: This Perrington family where they're living. Is this farmland or

170
00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,840
Speaker 2: is this within an actual town.

171
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:41,199
Speaker 3: I'm glad you asked.

172
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,520
Speaker 1: So this is farmland that he recently purchased, James Senior.

173
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 1: So they are new to Augusta. They've only been there

174
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 1: a year, maybe even less than a year. They came

175
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 1: from a different town in Maine, which is about twenty

176
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,880
Speaker 1: five miles away, so they don't know many people here now.

177
00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they've been there a year, and he gets

178
00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 1: the family involved in a church. I'll tell you about

179
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 1: that in a minute, so they are familiar, but we're

180
00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,440
Speaker 1: not talking about deep roots in Augusta. They are on

181
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,079
Speaker 1: a farm. They don't live on the farmland. Their house

182
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 1: is about a mile away, but the family goes back

183
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,240
Speaker 1: and forth from the house to the farm, and the

184
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,560
Speaker 1: older kids, not surprisingly at all, are all working on

185
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,480
Speaker 1: the farm. Everybody except for in fact, the baby, who

186
00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 1: is Luisa, who's eighteen months old. Everybody is integral to

187
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,240
Speaker 1: working on this farm, including Nathan who's six. I mean

188
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:34,880
Speaker 1: we've got a six year old, an eight year old,

189
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,600
Speaker 1: a ten year old, a twelve year old, a fifteen

190
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 1: year old, a seventeen year old, and a nineteen year

191
00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 1: old all working with the parents who are in their

192
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,480
Speaker 1: mid forties. That's the family unit that we have here,

193
00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 1: which is very typical of this time period and this area.

194
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: When we are learning more about the family, they are

195
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,520
Speaker 1: a hard working family of farmers. They are working the land.

196
00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,560
Speaker 1: James Senior is described as kind of a reserved, many quiet,

197
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,079
Speaker 1: kind and affectionate to the family, obliging to his neighbors.

198
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,320
Speaker 1: They're really trying to when we're kind of investigating this case,

199
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 1: the investigators are looking into the profile of the family

200
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,959
Speaker 1: led by this man who is a really important part

201
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,559
Speaker 1: of the community. When looking at the kids in the family,

202
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,720
Speaker 1: there's no red flags. Nothing is coming out about why

203
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 1: such a tragedy would end up falling on them. So

204
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,080
Speaker 1: the one note that I think is interesting is they

205
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,720
Speaker 1: settle with the Universalist Church, which I had never really

206
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm not familiar with. Universalism is rooted in the belief

207
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,040
Speaker 1: that all humans will ultimately be saved by God.

208
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:42,840
Speaker 3: So, you know, I think.

209
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,040
Speaker 1: That their devotion and their belief within this church is important,

210
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,320
Speaker 1: and they just seem like a very well grounded family

211
00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 1: that is about to experience a really terrible tragedy, which,

212
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,319
Speaker 1: of course we've talked about hundreds of times on this show.

213
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,439
Speaker 1: So I feel like we do many stories that take

214
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:01,800
Speaker 1: place around two in the morning.

215
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:02,439
Speaker 3: I feel like.

216
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,680
Speaker 1: Maybe the last five stories or two in the morning.

217
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 1: It's never a good time. Seventeen year old James Perrington junior.

218
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,439
Speaker 1: So he is the second eldest behind Polly who's nineteen.

219
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,319
Speaker 1: So James is at a neighbor's house frantically banging on

220
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,120
Speaker 1: the door. It's two and between two and three o'clock

221
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,720
Speaker 1: in the morning on July ninth, eighteen oh six. He

222
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,560
Speaker 1: is screaming. He is banging on the door, and he

223
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,480
Speaker 1: has his hand kind of on his back, and he

224
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 1: is saying that he and his family have been attacked.

225
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,200
Speaker 1: When the neighbors come down and he starts talking to

226
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,319
Speaker 1: the neighbor, which is a guy named Dean Wyman. Dean

227
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,760
Speaker 1: is talking to him and says what happened, and James

228
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 1: says that he had been sleeping, he had been rattled

229
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,000
Speaker 1: awake by the distressing sound of his mother screaming.

230
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 3: So Betsy's screaming.

231
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 1: He hops up, He rushes out of the bedroom to

232
00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 1: investigate what's happening. He tells the neighbor on the way

233
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 1: to Betsy's room to this parents room, James Junior says

234
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,880
Speaker 1: that he ran into a man who was holding a

235
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,560
Speaker 1: bloody axe, and to the boy's horror, of course, the

236
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,560
Speaker 1: man starts to swing the axe in his direction, the

237
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,679
Speaker 1: seventeen year old's direction, and he hits him on the back.

238
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,720
Speaker 1: If we're believing this story, there are dead people in

239
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,480
Speaker 1: this story. So if we believe James the seventeen year old,

240
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:27,760
Speaker 1: he's holding his back.

241
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,160
Speaker 3: There is a wound there.

242
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,880
Speaker 1: And I know this is a silly question because I

243
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:33,880
Speaker 1: know that this depends on how hard he was hit

244
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 1: and where. But I would think it would be very

245
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 1: difficult to go to a neighbor's house, which you know,

246
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,360
Speaker 1: probably was not right next door. I'm assuming it was,

247
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:43,959
Speaker 1: you know, a quarter of a mile or maybe a

248
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 1: half a mile away, with an injury on your back

249
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:47,760
Speaker 1: from an axe.

250
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really depends on the extent of the injury,

251
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 2: you know. And an axe, of course, can be a

252
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:58,280
Speaker 2: devastating weapon. It's also a tough weapon to use when

253
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,319
Speaker 2: you have let's say these two compass you know, so

254
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 2: you've got two combatants, James Junior and this unknown man,

255
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 2: and to swing an axe and hit James is not

256
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,640
Speaker 2: going to be the easiest thing, particularly in a house

257
00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 2: if you've got walls or a low ceiling, the offender

258
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,560
Speaker 2: may be limited in terms of how strong the swing

259
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 2: can be or how much of an arc the swing

260
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 2: could have with the axe. And then if James is

261
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,440
Speaker 2: really close to the offender, it's hard to employ this

262
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 2: very long weapon, you know. So there's so many dynamics

263
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,600
Speaker 2: going on, of course, you know, evaluating james statement, you know,

264
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,400
Speaker 2: one of the aspects is, Okay, where is this wound

265
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,200
Speaker 2: located at? Is this something that James could have inflicted

266
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 2: himself in some way? Is it consistent with being struck

267
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 2: with an axe? Or does its location, the type of wound,

268
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,880
Speaker 2: the seriousness of the wound, tends to suggest that James

269
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,400
Speaker 2: is telling the truth and that he actually was struck

270
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,600
Speaker 2: in the back at a location that James would unlikely

271
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 2: be able to inflict upon himself.

272
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I had a question about that. I've done

273
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,240
Speaker 1: several stories, one from Tenfold where a young man murders

274
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,280
Speaker 1: his parents but tries to say carjacker. Well, I guess

275
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 1: carjackers in the nineteen thirties had tried to take his parents' car,

276
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,720
Speaker 1: and he shoots himself in the arm and of course,

277
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 1: I've read of modern stories and old stories of people

278
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,160
Speaker 1: shooting themselves in logical places. If you're going to shoot

279
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,040
Speaker 1: yourself in the leg, maybe in the buttocks, you know,

280
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 1: definitely in the arm, But axing yourself in the back

281
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 1: just seems like there would be a more convenient place

282
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,080
Speaker 1: to do it. It does seem like it's a location

283
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,880
Speaker 1: where he could have reached it himself. It just seems

284
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 1: like there would be an easier route to go if

285
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,680
Speaker 1: you were going to hit yourself with an axe to

286
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 1: frame a narrative.

287
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,120
Speaker 2: And I agree, you know, so I think at this point,

288
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, I'm leaning towards what James is telling Dean

289
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 2: the neighbor is probably truthful.

290
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:54,640
Speaker 3: Okay.

291
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 1: So Dean is horrified and he wants more details, and

292
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 1: he looks at James is wound on his back and

293
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 1: it is very bloody, and it is not the blunt end.

294
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,960
Speaker 1: It's definitely the sharp end of the axe. So James

295
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,000
Speaker 1: is unfolding this story and it's very chaotic. So we've

296
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,960
Speaker 1: got all of these young kids. When James is on

297
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 1: the move, trying to get to his parents' room to

298
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,400
Speaker 1: see why Betsy, his mother is screaming. There's this man

299
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 1: with the axe. There's a fight, and James is scared

300
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 1: that he is going to be murdered immediately because the

301
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 1: man is pulling up the axe to hit him again,

302
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: it seems like. But one of the kids, the little kids,

303
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 1: tries to escape through the front door, and the man

304
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 1: turns and distracts him, giving James the opportunity to run outside,

305
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 1: and that's when he ends up at the neighbor's house.

306
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,920
Speaker 1: He has no idea what happened to the rest of

307
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 1: his family. He doesn't know where his dad is, his mom,

308
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 1: and all of his brothers and sisters. He just is

309
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,800
Speaker 1: trying to go get help. So this is probably not

310
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:05,560
Speaker 1: a good ending for the child who was trying to

311
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,439
Speaker 1: get out the window, but it stopped James from, you know,

312
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 1: being murdered, of course, and gives him an opportunity to

313
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 1: escape well.

314
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 2: And it underscores when you have a single offender who's

315
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 2: going in and you have so many occupants inside a house,

316
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,680
Speaker 2: how hard it can be to contain all these occupants.

317
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,639
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of truth ringing out with what

318
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,119
Speaker 2: James is saying about that observation.

319
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 1: And this is what tells you a lot about the

320
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds, and that comment I mentioned that there

321
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,720
Speaker 1: was no organized police force. When James Junior tells the

322
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,960
Speaker 1: story to Dean Wyman, the neighbor, Dean says, I will

323
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,639
Speaker 1: go over there and see what's going on. But he

324
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 1: is frightened smartly, so he goes to several neighboring houses.

325
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 1: And that's how frightened he was. Knowing that probably people

326
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,760
Speaker 1: were being butchered in the Purrington house, he has to

327
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,959
Speaker 1: go over to these neighbors' houses to get together a

328
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,560
Speaker 1: group of neighbors so they all feel safe enough to

329
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,600
Speaker 1: go over. So you know, by this time, it's about

330
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,840
Speaker 1: three in the morning, and as they start to approach

331
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,439
Speaker 1: the house, it's eerily quiet. And you know, I have

332
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,720
Speaker 1: a point in here that, of course these days you

333
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 1: would call nine one one. They didn't ring a bell

334
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 1: to alarm neighbors or you know, get more people. They

335
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 1: just went door to door, knocking and getting people to

336
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,920
Speaker 1: come to the door. I don't know if I were

337
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,439
Speaker 1: getting a knock on the door at three in the

338
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 1: morning now, if I would answer the door. But that

339
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,600
Speaker 1: was the response the community had. They had a group

340
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 1: of men go over to find out what happened.

341
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,320
Speaker 2: I imagine because of this type of community that when

342
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 2: you know somebody's knocking on the door in the middle

343
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 2: of the night, they're screaming out. They're saying, you know, hey, James,

344
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 2: this is Dean right, and you recognize the voice. You

345
00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 2: recognize you know, the name of the person of your neighbor.

346
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 2: So I could see where this would work in this

347
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,719
Speaker 2: culture back then. You know, of course, today, you know,

348
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 2: everybody's so suspicious about somebody coming to the door in

349
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 2: the middle of the night. You'd have to be absolutely

350
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,360
Speaker 2: convinced that it is somebody you know and you trust

351
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: before you open your door.

352
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,640
Speaker 1: Just to paint the scene here, we're in countryside on

353
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 1: this farm, approaching the house. I say this line sometimes

354
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 1: in my stories. There's only candlelight and moonlight. So there's

355
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,240
Speaker 1: no electricity. We're one hundred years from electricity. So you

356
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 1: have this group holding candles, not even gas lamps. They're

357
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 1: holding candles, trying to move through the summer night to

358
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 1: get to the house. There's no light on in the

359
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 1: house at all, No candles are lit. So they walk

360
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 1: into the house, which is completely quiet. There's a room

361
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 1: that contemporary newspapers and the data that we have says,

362
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,080
Speaker 1: it's called an outer room or an outroom. It's not

363
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 1: an out house. I think the closest thing would be

364
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 1: maybe a covered porch, kind of just like an external

365
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,119
Speaker 1: parlor maybe. But this is where they find the first body.

366
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: The body is that of James sor So, the patriarch

367
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: of the family's forty six. Tell me what this means.

368
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 1: It says James Sr. Is found lying prostrate on his

369
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,920
Speaker 1: face in a pool of his own blood, and his

370
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,360
Speaker 1: throat has been slashed with a razor which is sitting

371
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 1: near by his body on like a table. And there's

372
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 1: a bloody axe found in the same room. So the

373
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 1: patriarch is dead now prostrate on his face. Is that

374
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:41,400
Speaker 1: face down?

375
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 3: Is that what that means?

376
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 2: He's face down, pool of blood around his head. You know.

377
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm kind of curious as to what other

378
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 2: injuries he has besides the incision to the neck. But

379
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 2: of course, when you in size the neck while somebody's

380
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: still alive, there's a fair amount of blood that will

381
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: come out as a heart pump. So I'm a little

382
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:07,000
Speaker 2: bit surprised that the elder statesman, James forty six year

383
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,560
Speaker 2: old male in the militia, you know, so this tells

384
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 2: me a little bit about his victimology. He's probably fairly

385
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 2: capable of taking care of himself, has fairly robust, you know,

386
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 2: relatively speaking. And this is where it's like, did somebody

387
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 2: surprise him, Did he come down and hear a sound

388
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 2: and he was surprised hit with the acts the throat

389
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 2: was cut while after he went down to the ground,

390
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,160
Speaker 2: or did he get into a fight with the offender

391
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: or offenders that he's interacting with.

392
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you no other injuries once the

393
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 1: coroner arrives and we do have a corner, Thank goodness,

394
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: no other injuries on James, but really a bad slash

395
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 1: throat and they don't know what the order of the

396
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 1: murders was. But I just thought to myself, well, Paul

397
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 1: always says that if you're a smart killer and there's

398
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: just one of you, you're going for the most capable first,

399
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 1: eliminating what do you usually call it, eliminating the mail,

400
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: the biggest threat, eliminating, that's what you say, you say,

401
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: eliminating the biggest threat. Absolutely, So is that what we

402
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: think might have happened as of now is there's a

403
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: possibility that maybe James came downstairs, he heard a noise,

404
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:20,959
Speaker 1: He's eliminated.

405
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 2: First, perhaps I'm assuming that James was asleep in a

406
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: room inside the house, and so something has drawn James out.

407
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: The likelihood of an offender going into the house and

408
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: pulling James out to this location that doesn't seem right.

409
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 2: So possibly maybe there was a knock on the door

410
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 2: and James Senior is the one that would naturally be

411
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 2: the one to go investigate. And as soon as he

412
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 2: opens the door, is he being confronted by offenders? The

413
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: blood flows out of the neck would be very telling.

414
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 2: Does he have any blood flows that are going down

415
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 2: the front of his clothing, his pajamas, whatever he's got

416
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 2: on to indicate that he was upright at the time

417
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 2: eating started, or was he forced down to the ground,

418
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: faced down and that's what his neck was cut, because

419
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: that is how some offenders will execute their victims.

420
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: A pool of his own blood. I don't know in

421
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: which direction it flowed. I will say I think it's

422
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: curious that the axes in the room and the razors

423
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 1: in the room, and I had wondered if James Senior,

424
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: for some reason was the last one killed, and then

425
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: like the person went out the door, because why are

426
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: those things found by the person who was potentially the

427
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: first victim, or maybe James was killed first. And then

428
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: the killer goes around the house and I'll tell you

429
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: about all the other victims here soon, and then goes

430
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 1: back out to where James is, he knows he's dead,

431
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: and then leaves the stuff behind, and then that's it.

432
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what the possibility would be.

433
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I need to know more in terms of sequencing. Obviously,

434
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: we know that we have a family inside the house,

435
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,719
Speaker 2: we have multiple victims. You've described you know, James Sr.

436
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 2: Being out at this location. You know, it's possible he's

437
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 2: the first one killed. It's possible he's a third one killed.

438
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 2: It's possible he's the last one killed. I might be

439
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: able to do some sequencing as I hear more information. However,

440
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 2: my initial thought is is the reason why these weapons

441
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 2: are at this location is this seems like the logical

442
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 2: entry and exit the offender or offenders took going into

443
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: and out of the house.

444
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: And if we believe James Junior, he's not much of

445
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,399
Speaker 1: a witness right now because he seems to have maybe

446
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: come in in the middle. You know, he's awoken, he

447
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: is on the move trying to get to his mom

448
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: and her screaming, and then he encounters the killer and

449
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: then turns and runs.

450
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: So we don't really know.

451
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: You know, We've had some cases where we can see

452
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: there's a survivor who has kind of seen the sequence,

453
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 1: and we're we just have a disadvantage in this case

454
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: because James sort of just sees this one pocket of

455
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: time and then he is out the door, if we

456
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: believe him. One thing that I want to give a

457
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 1: lot of credit too is I love the folks in

458
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds who kept up diary.

459
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: There is a woman named Martha Ballard, which is kind

460
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: of what led me to this story. She was a midwife,

461
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: and I was really interested in her diary because she

462
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: chronicled everything that happened. Her house was one of the

463
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: houses that was you know, knocked, The door was knocked

464
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: on at two or three in the morning, and her

465
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 1: husband was requested to come outside so that, you know,

466
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: all these neighbors could go over and see what's happening

467
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: in the house. So Martha had a first person point of.

468
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 3: View of all of this.

469
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: In true nineteenth century fashion. You know, there's a lot

470
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: of drama between the newspapers and Martha. She said it

471
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: was the most shocking scene she'd ever seen in this

472
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: part of the world. And then one of the newspapers

473
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: said the whole house seemed covered with blood, which means

474
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: I need to start to tell you about the other victims, right,

475
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: because that's a big tease.

476
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. You know, as I'm thinking about this, we

477
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,360
Speaker 2: have multi victims inside the house, and is the offender

478
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 2: targeting the family? Is there a specific person of this

479
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: family that the offender is targeting and learning more about

480
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: the offender victim interactions could help me kind of determine. Okay,

481
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: is this the offender going in and just wiping this

482
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: entire family out, or is there a specific victim that

483
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: the offender really wanted to target? You know, is there

484
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: more time the offender spent with a specific person based

485
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: on the amount of injuries or the types of activities

486
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: the offender did with the person, and then all the

487
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: other family members are just ancillary to the crime.

488
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: Well, let's continue on. I will be curious about your

489
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: thought on weapons, so I will tell you there were

490
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: It seems like only two weapons used, an AX which

491
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: was used on James Junior's back, and a razor that

492
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: was used on several people, including James SR. Maybe there's

493
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: some sort of weapons theory that I don't know, but

494
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: as we go through the victims and their injuries, maybe

495
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: you can tell me what you think might have happened

496
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: and why the killer chose one way versus the other.

497
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: And I want to do a little bit of a

498
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: trigger warning that there will be discussions about, you know,

499
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: kids who have been murdered here and were coming up

500
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: on them. Now, near James Senior's body, the neighbors find

501
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: the bodies of eight year old Nathaniel and six year

502
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: old Nathan. These are the two youngest other than the

503
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: eighteen month old baby. Both of their throats have been

504
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,479
Speaker 1: fatally slit. So one of them is the kid who

505
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: tried to get out the window and couldn't. And this

506
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: is what the razer, presumably the same one that was

507
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: held by the killer who murdered James Senor. This seems

508
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: in a world where everybody owned a gun, this seems

509
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: like so close up and personal to slit the throats

510
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: of an eight year old and a six year old

511
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: right next to the father.

512
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: Well, the offender is choosing this weapon purposely, you know.

513
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: So that's where now getting into the offender's mind. Why

514
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: not just go in with a gun? Well, we know

515
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: that guns make a lot of noise. Is it possible

516
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 2: to start shooting family members in one room and not

517
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: alert other family members that something bad is happening. So

518
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 2: it sounds like the offender purposely chose the razor and

519
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 2: possibly thought would be able to silently go through the

520
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: house and execute the family members without alerting the other

521
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: sleeping members inside the house. I think that is the

522
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: offender's initial plan. And then something goes sideways. We have

523
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: James Junior hearing Mom screaming, so possibly Mom wakes up

524
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 2: unexpectedly while the offender is attacking her, and now the

525
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 2: family is alert to uh oh, something bad is happening

526
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: inside the house.

527
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: Well, let's move on to the next victim. So we've

528
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: got the father, and then we've got an eight year

529
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: old boy and a six year old boy, and the

530
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: seventeen year old with an axe mark on his back.

531
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: When the neighbors go with their candles, which just must

532
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: have been an awful thing for them at three in

533
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: the morning in the countryside in the summer with all

534
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: of the noises that I know come that I think

535
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: are beautiful, with the crickets and the frogs and you know,

536
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: all of this that come in the countryside to paint

537
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: the scene of having candles and walking from room to

538
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 1: room discovering bodies because they know how big this family is.

539
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: They get to the common areas, which would have been

540
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: maybe the parlor, we could call it the living room.

541
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: They look in front of the fireplace and there is

542
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: the body of the twelve year old whose name is Benjamin.

543
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: He has been axed to death, so not the straight

544
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: razor or not the razor. He has been axed to death.

545
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: He's in front of the fireplace, on the floor, and

546
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: the investigators say that Benjamin's pants are tucked under his arm,

547
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: so it sounds like maybe he was in his underwear

548
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: or his night dress and he had grabbed his paint

549
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: trying to dress himself to either find out what the

550
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: noise was about or to get out, and before he collapsed,

551
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: he left a bloody handprint on a nearby wall, which

552
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: in eighteen oh six would not have been particularly useful.

553
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: No as forensics sorry, as a forensics tool, it was

554
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: not useful.

555
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: I'm envisioning if there's a single offender, a single offender

556
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: is utilizing two different weapons and having multiple victims being

557
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: attacked as they are trying to escape or move about

558
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: the house. There's a lot going on here without even

559
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: hearing about what's happening with the other victims. Just with

560
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: what we know right now, with James Senior and the

561
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: three boys, the six, eight, and twelve year old boys

562
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: being in different locations in the house, I'm trying to

563
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: envision how the offender is able to contain these boys.

564
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: Is it just mer the physical presence and the boys

565
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: are scared and they freeze, you know, that is typical

566
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: for kids this age, or as the offender in essence

567
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: just planting himself knowing that as the family tries to escape,

568
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: they're going to run right at him. A know, and

569
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: basically the victims. He knows these victims are just going

570
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: to come to him, and he's dispatching them as they

571
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: kind of emerge out of their rooms.

572
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: And this sequencing is really confusing to me, and I'm

573
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: not sure it's going to be any more illuminated. Maybe

574
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: by the end of the story it will be. But

575
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: now we're going to move to Betsy's room, who is

576
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: the matriarch of the family, the forty five year old.

577
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: So this is when we hear her scream and James

578
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: is awoken, James Junior, and he's I'm assuming taking a

579
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: few minutes or a few seconds to orient himself. When

580
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: the neighbors find her, Betsy, her head has been almost

581
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: severed her body, and there are no other injuries. It

582
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: seems like whatever happens with her neck is the only thing.

583
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: There's not hack marks anywhere else on her body. She's

584
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: found in her bed, so investigators will later surmise that

585
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: she was sleeping when this happened. Maybe she saw the

586
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: killer standing there with the axe. She screamed, then this happens.

587
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: The trick here is that there is a little girl

588
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: on the floor who has also been killed. The ten

589
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: year old is Anna now? The contemporary newspaper from eighteen

590
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: oh six says that they think that Anna also heard

591
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: the mom screams and came running in and then she

592
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: was killed, which they said had been clearly done with

593
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: the axe.

594
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: She had been hacked with an axe and was murdered.

595
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: But I would think that James would have seen her

596
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: run into the room then get murdered, and then I

597
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: guess it just depends on how quickly James got himself together,

598
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: got up and ran to his mother's room.

599
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: Right. Also, just the configuration of the hallways, the doorways,

600
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: the room itself. You know what could James Junior actually witness,

601
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: particularly when his attention is really going to be focused

602
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 2: in on this man with an axe that's attacking him,

603
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: you know, so his senses are going to be focused

604
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: in on that threat.

605
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: Well, now we're going to talk about I wonder another

606
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: potential threat. Who was the eldest child. She was nineteen, Paullie.

607
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: I would say, let's go with functional strength. We've talked

608
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: about this before, how I used to throw around Hey

609
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: bills when I was twelve or thirteen and built up

610
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: a lot of functional strength. I think we can assume

611
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: that Polly at nineteen and has been working on a

612
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: farm her whole life, I would assume could have been

613
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: a threat to some stranger who came in or somebody

614
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: in the family who came in and encountered her. Do

615
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: you think that that's a fair assessment.

616
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: Well, first, Kate, I think I know I better not

617
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: mess with you in any way.

618
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: Functional strength not old man strength. But it's in there somewhere,

619
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: It's in the mix.

620
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: I envisioned myself being pinned down on the ground real fast. No,

621
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 2: but this is true. You know this is something to wear. Now,

622
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: Polly a nineteen year old female, I think maybe relative

623
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: to today, to the average nineteen year old woman, Polly

624
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: probably had a greater capacity to defend herself from let's say,

625
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: a more robust combatant such as maybe the average type

626
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 2: of male. So, now is Paullie engaged with the offender

627
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 2: and it's taking longer for the offender to subdue Paully

628
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: or dispatch Pollie. You know, this is where I'm going

629
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: to be very interested in hearing about Polly's injuries.

630
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: The only quote I see is dreadfully butchered, which I

631
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: believe the corner was saying, just hack marks everywhere. Paullie

632
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: is in a separate bedroom, but there are two other

633
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 1: people in the bedroom.

634
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: This is getting interesting in terms of so Paullie is

635
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: her injuries the coroner is describing as severely butchered. Now

636
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: we were just talking, did Pollie put up a greater

637
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: fight and that's why she maybe has more injuries? And

638
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: what we've been told about on these other victims. You know,

639
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,360
Speaker 2: we have little boys, you know with singular you know,

640
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: throat slashes of Betsy with you know, a singular either

641
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 2: throat slash or acts to the neck. Even the biggest

642
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: thread in the house, the forty six year old James Senior,

643
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: single throat slash. But Paoullie, There's a lot more going on.

644
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: So I'm right now, I'm just kind of marking that

645
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 2: in my head, going, Okay, is this just because Pollie

646
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: resisted more it was due to the dynamics of maybe

647
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: the combat that was happening between her and the offender,

648
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: or is it because the offender had a focus on Polly,

649
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 2: you know. So that's where I'm going to be trying

650
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 2: to tease that out as we talk.

651
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: So we have nineteen year old Pollie who's in this

652
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: room nearby room to her mother's room, butchered. There are

653
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: two other people in the room. One is the eighteen

654
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: month old baby Louisa, who it seems like has also

655
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: been killed with an axe. She is on the floor,

656
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: and there is the final kid, fifteen year old Martha,

657
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: and Martha's head is resting on top of Louisa. I

658
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: think maybe trying to protect her. But here's the shocker

659
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: to me. I mean, Martha's got axe wounds all over

660
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: her and she's alive. I mean, I know that it

661
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: depends on where you're hit, but gosh, being hit with

662
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: an axe just seems like almost inevitably death. But she

663
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: is still alive.

664
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: It all depends on, you know, what is injured wounded.

665
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: You know, within the body. You could have a very

666
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: serious wound from an axe and easily survive it. You

667
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: could have a wound that doesn't look like much and

668
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: it could be fatal.

669
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: So what ends up happening is when the neighbors finally

670
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: find Martha, she is the final victim. Now we know

671
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: everybody who has been discovered, and so now just to conclude,

672
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: we've got the mother, Betsy, We've got the father, James Senior.

673
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: We've got a nineteen.

674
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: Year old, we've got Martha who's fifteen but seems to

675
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: be surviving. We've got a twelve year old boy, a

676
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: ten year old girl, an eight year old boy, a

677
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,320
Speaker 1: six year old boy, and then the baby eighteen months old.

678
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: I cannot understand the baby aspect of this at all.

679
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: I've never been able to understand why that would happen.

680
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: Why a stranger would come in, If this is a

681
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: stranger and do something like that, what is the motivation?

682
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: Well, I go back to a case that I reviewed

683
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six triple homicide out of my jurisdiction, in

684
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 2: which a husband, wife, and their toddler kid in the

685
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 2: crib were all killed and it was a solve case.

686
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: And the offender in that case said that while he

687
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 2: was attacking the parents, the little toddler is crying in

688
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: the crib and that was a threat to the offender

689
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: because that cry would potentially alert witnesses, and so he

690
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: went and horribly butchered this little toddler. But it was

691
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 2: mo o that this was for the offender to succeed,

692
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: and it had nothing to do with this young child

693
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: being targeted. So there's always that as a possibility, you know,

694
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: But this is in this case with the Purrington family,

695
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: this is where it gets to, Okay, is the offender

696
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: trying to just eliminate this entire family or is the

697
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: offender targeting select individuals in this family but also eliminating witnesses?

698
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: And I don't know just yet.

699
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: The two people who seemed to endure the most injuries

700
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: were Betsy, the mom.

701
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 3: And then the nineteen year old.

702
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: And you know he never got a chance to finish

703
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: the job with James Junior because he ran out the door.

704
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: So the reason that Martha Ballard, who is our the

705
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: woman who kept all of the diaries about this and

706
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: gave great detail, the reason she knows a lot about

707
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: this is not only did her husband respond when the

708
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: neighbors needed somebody to go over and help search this house.

709
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: Room to room.

710
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: When Martha Perrington was discovered still alive laying right on

711
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: top of her eighteen month old sister, they take her

712
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: to Martha Ballard's house and Martha tends to her wounds,

713
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: and Martha Perrington eventually starts to recover. The fifteen year

714
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: old starts to recover, and she starts to talk about

715
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: what happened that night. She had no idea during the

716
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: attack who it was, what was happening, why it was happening,

717
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: She says. She told Martha that she was in the

718
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: room with Polly and they were in bed. I don't

719
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: know why Louisa, the eighteen month old was in there.

720
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: It wouldn't be surprising. Maybe the mother and the father

721
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: needed sleep. Maybe this was a normal thing. But Martha

722
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: and Pollie were in bed together, and Martha says she

723
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: woke up while her sister was being struck with an

724
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: axe in bed. So Martha, the fifteen year old, grabs

725
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: all of the bedding, which I don't know how much

726
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: that would have been in June, but some kind of betting,

727
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,240
Speaker 1: and to defend herself from the blows, she wraps herself

728
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: up in the bedding before she is being struck on

729
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: the head and the arm. So those are her injuries.

730
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: And you know, it seems likely that whoever did this

731
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: assumed she had died along with Polly and everybody else

732
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: because she was bleeding and left her and that's how

733
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: she survived, is wrapping herself up in the bedding to

734
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: muffle the blows.

735
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 2: I guess so Martha, at least what's observed on the

736
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: fifteen year old Martha Purrington is just maybe defensive injuries

737
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: to her arm as well as a blow to her head,

738
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: But sounds very different than the number of blows being

739
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: inflicted to Paullie, who is lying helpless on the bed.

740
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 2: So it's not like Pollie had gotten up and was

741
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 2: able to use her functional strength Poullie probably was asleep

742
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: when she's first being struck with blows by the acts,

743
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 2: possibly doesn't have any capacity or even awareness of what's

744
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: going on before she's killed, you know, So why is

745
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: the offender inflicting so many blows on Pollie relative to

746
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: what's happening to the rest of the family, and you know,

747
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: kind of going through this Well, then now naturally it's

748
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 2: going back to James Junior of the children. You know,

749
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 2: he's the oldest boy, he's seventeen years old. He's working

750
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: on the farm. So we're talking about Pollie as a

751
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 2: girl having functional strength, James Junior probably is the second

752
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: biggest threat in this house. As a seventeen year old

753
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 2: boy working on a farm, he's able to escape. Now

754
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: is he telling the truth or this is where I

755
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: kind of go back. How is this offender controlling so

756
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: many family members inside this house? Well, if these family

757
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: members are seeing James Junior, they're possibly more willing to

758
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 2: just kind of approach him or let him approach if

759
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 2: he is the one that's killing this family, And that

760
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: would in my mind account for how a single offender

761
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: would be able to go through this house and kill everybody.

762
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of curious to see how this develops

763
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 2: with James Junior. You know, early on it's like, what

764
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 2: sounds like he's selling the truth. But I'm a little

765
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 2: suspicious at this point.

766
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, considering he's the only survivor out of all of this.

767
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: So Martha Perrington says to Martha Ballard that eventually after

768
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: the it sounds like the killer thought.

769
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 3: She was dead.

770
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: He left left the room. Now what I was just

771
00:42:55,719 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 1: thinking as you were talking, was Martha Parrington does not

772
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: mention her mother screaming with a head injury. Maybe she

773
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: missed it. But now I'm wondering what the sequence of

774
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 1: events would have been if she doesn't mention hearing a

775
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,879
Speaker 1: fight nearby between James and the killer and yelling. If

776
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: she doesn't mention, you know, her mother screaming. So now

777
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: maybe this head injury knocked her out. Probably it did,

778
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 1: you know.

779
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 2: When you have these, you know, head injuries, traumatic brain injuries,

780
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: there can be so much lost in terms of memory,

781
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, or she is not even conscious at the time,

782
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: that maybe her mom, Betsy is being attacked, you know,

783
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: So that would go to the sequencing. But it is

784
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: a significant statement by her. I'm not sure we can

785
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: tease it out though from a sequencing standpoint, because we

786
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: don't know her state of consciousness. You know at the

787
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: time that Betsy is being attacked her mom.

788
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: Here's an interesting note that is very graphic, but I

789
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: feel like important to say. There's a writer, modern day

790
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: writer named Laurel Thatcher Ulric, and she studied Martha Ballard's diaries,

791
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: which are really interesting. And according to Ulric, she says

792
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: that the younger Martha, the fifteen year old, is in

793
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: bed with Polly. Polly is murdered, and she said she

794
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: felt the blood from her sister's wounds and was convinced

795
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: she was dead. After Martha herself was attacked, Martha's laying

796
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: there pretending to be dead or passed out, but she

797
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: says that according to the diary, Martha Purrington says that

798
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: she remembers laying her head over the edge of the

799
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: bed and hearing the blood run like a brook upon

800
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: the floor. Sounds like indicating that was coming both from

801
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: her sister and from her wounds. Now, if you'll remember,

802
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: sounds like she dragged herself off the bed, fell off

803
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: the bed. Maybe because she is found ultimately laying basically

804
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: on top of the eighteen month old girl on the floor.

805
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if she's I saw Louisa dead on

806
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: the floor, the little girl, and wanted to protect her

807
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: or check on her or something. But she was almost

808
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: killed in bed next to her sister, but found on

809
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: the floor on top of her baby sister.

810
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And if she's putting her head over

811
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: the side of the mattress, it sounds like it's her

812
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 2: head wound that is bleeding so extensively. She's hearing her

813
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: blood in essence run out and strike the floor. And

814
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: when you start getting a pool of blood and blood

815
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 2: dripping into blood, now you get a lot of the spatter,

816
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 2: the secondary satellite spatter that occurs, and there'd be almost

817
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: like a slapping sound as you know, drops of blood

818
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: are going into this pool of blood on the floor. Again,

819
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 2: I kind of go back to even though Martha is

820
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 2: severely injured, she's in bed with Polly. Yet Pollie is

821
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: receiving a lot of the offender's attention. Seems like the

822
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 2: offender has angst with something about Polly.

823
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: Now, I don't know how much credence you want to

824
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: give this, but the corner says that it looked like

825
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: to him that the killer seemed determined to sever the

826
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 1: heads from the bodies of just about everyone except for

827
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,720
Speaker 1: the two young kids who were found near James Senior,

828
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 1: whose throats had been cut with the razor. He felt

829
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: like everybody else had really been butchered, particularly Polly and

830
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: the twelve year old son Benjamin, which he believes meant

831
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: that they were both putting up a pretty good fight

832
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: and that's what happened. There were more injuries kind of

833
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,479
Speaker 1: all over their body, like they had really been trying

834
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: to fight back. So again it comes back to like

835
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: what is his motivation, what is he thinking? And how

836
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: is he choosing the victims? And I know, right now

837
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: it's a big mystery.

838
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 2: It is a mystery, and you know, I'll put some

839
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 2: credence into the coroners observations. However, I also questioned the coroners.

840
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 2: You know, at this time frame, you know his level

841
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 2: of expertise in evaluating these injuries. You know, how many

842
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: cases like this, homicides like this, had he ever seen before?

843
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: Is he truly classifying these injuries appropriately? You know, these

844
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 2: throats being cut versus being struck with an axe, you know,

845
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: but the offender is almost exclusively targeting the next whether

846
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: it be with the acts or with the razor, and

847
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 2: that in part, I think there is the you know,

848
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: the kind of what I talked about earlier, you know,

849
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 2: kind of the silent kill, you know, you cut the

850
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: throat before vocalization could occur, you know, And this is

851
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: maybe the plan the offender had to be able to

852
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 2: take on the entire family. But also I imagine during

853
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 2: this era you have a fair number of people who

854
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: are probably raising their own farm animals and slaughtering their

855
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: own animals. And how are animals typically slaughtered? You know,

856
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: is this something that the offender is comfortable doing because

857
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 2: of something in his normal life.

858
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 1: So I think that your observations of specific people being

859
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: targeted is a good one. And now I want to

860
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: clarify sequence for you, because now this takes a pretty

861
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: big turn. Okay, So the neighbors are going room to

862
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: room with their candlelight, They find all of the victims,

863
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: make note of where everybody is. Eventually the corner shows

864
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: up and eventually he will call an inquest. Corner's inquests,

865
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: so people get interviewed. While James Junior is safe at

866
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: the neighbor's house, he is talking, and the neighbors eventually,

867
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: of course, say who did this? Do you know who

868
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: did this? And he goes back and he says, this

869
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: is what happened.

870
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 3: I heard my mom scream. I got up.

871
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: I started to run to her room because it was

872
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: an awful sound. I saw a man standing there with

873
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 1: an axe and it was my father.

874
00:48:54,880 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's talk about James Senior, who's fast found

875
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 2: laying face down out on that porch area with a

876
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: single cut to the throat. Yep, so this throws in. Okay,

877
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: We've got James Junior, who's a survivor, and of course

878
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 2: there's some suspicion about him, whether he's telling the truth

879
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 2: or not. Do we also have potentially James Senior being

880
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 2: the killer and he kills everybody. James Junior is able

881
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: to escape, but James Senior, after everybody's dead, cuts his

882
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 2: own throat. It's possibility.

883
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: What do you think if that is the route we

884
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: go down? You have the two youngest boys who, if

885
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: we believe the coroner who thinks Betsy was killed with

886
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: an axe, everybody was killed with an axe except James

887
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: Senior and the two young boys who are found nearby

888
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,399
Speaker 1: you've got an axe nearby, James Senior, and you've got

889
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: this razor laying on a table nearby. Does that fit

890
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: in with what James Junior is saying happened and what

891
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: would fit in with the scene in general, with.

892
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: The information as presented, I think that that's a fair

893
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:14,479
Speaker 2: scenario where if you have the father, James Senior, going

894
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 2: through the house with an axe, dispatching the family members

895
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 2: and their rooms, he also has the razor with them,

896
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 2: you know, after he goes through and Betsy has been killed,

897
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 2: and Polly and he thinks Martha is and then eighteen

898
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 2: month old Luisa. He has the interaction with James Junior,

899
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 2: but gets distracted when he sees one of the younger

900
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: boys trying to escape and goes to contain the younger boy.

901
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 2: Does he kill Nathan and Nathaniel you know six and

902
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 2: eight year olds in this area and his final act

903
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: is he takes his own life? The acts would be there,

904
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: the razor would be what he uses to cut his

905
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: own throat. And this is now where blood patterns become

906
00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: important in terms of evaluating the evidence, and his wounding

907
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 2: suggests it's self inflicted versus Is there something that would

908
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: indicate it was done by an offender, you know, And

909
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 2: of course I know I'm not going to get that

910
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: concrete evidence, you know, those photos and autopsy reports in

911
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 2: order to try to figure that out. But it is

912
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 2: I think the scenario is a possibility, you know, because

913
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 2: why is James Senior the biggest threat in the house,

914
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: all the way out front and killed face you know,

915
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 2: he's face down with just a single cut to the throat.

916
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 2: You know, you would think if he's interacting with this

917
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: man who has an axe, you know, he's probably putting

918
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 2: up the biggest fight of all the family members. And

919
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 2: it doesn't look like James Senior has the types of

920
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: abrasions and bruising and defensive wounds as he's in combat

921
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: with an armed offender. So I right now, you know,

922
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 2: with what's presented, I think Dad may have killed his

923
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 2: family and then killed himself.

924
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: It does seem like that is clearly what happened. And

925
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: I will say, just like today, in eighteen oh six, people.

926
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:12,720
Speaker 3: Wanted to know why.

927
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: All the newspapers fixated on the why why would he

928
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: do this? This is a successful farmer, somebody who was

929
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: in the military, someone who was well respected. They had

930
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: a nice family. There seemed to be no history of

931
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: violence that we knew of. Of course, behind closed doors

932
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: we don't know. But there is some circumstantial evidence that

933
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: I find really interesting. I'm always baffled by family annihilation stories,

934
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: but this is the evidence that people started to dig

935
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: up when they started to get information about James Perrington Sor.

936
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: The coroner's jury found multiple things. One they said that

937
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: he was seized with an attack of hereditary insanity and

938
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: was a maniac when he committed the deed. So there's

939
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 1: that that was the basic what drove him, But there

940
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: is a lot of kind of context about his fears

941
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: and his own rationale. So just throwing out the coroner's

942
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 1: jury saying he was crazy, well, I mean, how helpful

943
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: is that.

944
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: Were there any behaviors he was exhibiting, you know, in

945
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: the days and the months and the years, you know,

946
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: that would indicate that he was suffering from some sort

947
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: of mental health aspect. You know, I could see where yeah,

948
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 2: you know, here he is. He's forty six years old,

949
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 2: potentially has been suffering with some mental health issue and

950
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 2: it spirals out of control, and then one night he

951
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 2: goes through and takes out his family, and himself. That's

952
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 2: a possibility, you know. But this is where you know,

953
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 2: studying James Sr. And his behaviors. You know what he's

954
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 2: getting himself into. Everybody has secrets, you know what did

955
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 2: he get him himself into trouble with you know, somebody

956
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 2: else and thought the only way to get out was

957
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 2: to take himself and his entire family out. So there's

958
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 2: so many things that could be bubbling within James Senior,

959
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,280
Speaker 2: including the mental health aspect.

960
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: He was it sounds like becoming in the months before

961
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: more zealous about being in the Universalist church. But really

962
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,320
Speaker 1: what people were picking up on are some really disturbing things.

963
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: I was surprised because this all seemed to come within

964
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: a week of the murders. No one is really flagging

965
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: anything until about a week beforehand. So let me tell

966
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: you what happens. You know, he's a farmer. Neighbors say

967
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: that really over the last maybe couple of months, he

968
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: had become incredibly anxious about his farm. According to the

969
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: Bulletin of Maine State Library, we you know, Wes try

970
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: to give credit for this. He was known to be

971
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: elated or depressed up and down according to to circumstances

972
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,719
Speaker 1: and before the tragedy, he was incredibly despondent over a

973
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: severe drought that made him fear that his crops would

974
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: be cut off and his family would suffer. So you

975
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: have just this monitory everything is going to hell feeling

976
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: that he is expressing openly to other people panicking or

977
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: oh we're getting a rain. Everything is fantastic. So the

978
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: ups and downs, what do we think about that?

979
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 2: I always have to couch this, you know. I am

980
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: not a terrained psychologist psychiatrist, you know, but I think

981
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 2: just you know, common lay knowledge of symptoms that different

982
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: mental health issues present. You know, you have manic and

983
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 2: depressant oscillations, you know, and it was within certain conditions,

984
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: sounds like he may be exhibiting that, you know, whether

985
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 2: it be a like a bipolar situation or something else.

986
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 2: You know. Again, I don't want to put any type

987
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: of diagnosis on James Senior, but it is something that

988
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 2: possibly suggests that he was struggling from a mental health

989
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 2: standpoint and may have put such great emphasis on this

990
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 2: drought coming up and the suffering of the family, and

991
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 2: he didn't want his family to suffer, so he decided, well,

992
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 2: they're better off being killed and going into the hands

993
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 2: of God than living through this upcoming drought. Who knows

994
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: what kind of warped logic he had at the end

995
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: of his life.

996
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 1: So moving forward, there are two key things that happened

997
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: that give us a really good indication that things are

998
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: not going to go well here a week before they

999
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,720
Speaker 1: both happen basically at the same time. So a week

1000
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: before the murders, James Senior asked Martha, the fifteen year

1001
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,839
Speaker 1: old who survived. So she's the one telling us this,

1002
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:00,439
Speaker 1: to bring him a butcher knife. He sharpens it, and

1003
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: when I started reading this, I thought, oh, man, did

1004
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: he threaten her? Martha says that her dad put the

1005
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: butcher knife to his own throat and Martha panicked and

1006
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: screamed and said, I'm getting mother, turned and ran out

1007
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 1: the door, and he put the knife down. And that

1008
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: happened a week before. So what do you think about

1009
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: that he's not threatening her, he's threatening his own life.

1010
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 3: Ultimately.

1011
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, whether or not he was actually going to cut

1012
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: his throat in front of Martha or at that point

1013
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 2: in time, who knows. But it's a behavior that is

1014
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: predictive to ultimately what he did to himself, you know,

1015
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 2: I'm absolutely convinced James Senior killed his family and killed himself.

1016
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 2: So this act of sharpening the butcher knife and putting

1017
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: it to his neck in front of his daughter, you know,

1018
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 2: for me, that's a behavior that turned out to be

1019
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 2: predictive of what ultimately he was thinking about downstream. Don't

1020
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 2: know when he was going to carry out this, you know,

1021
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: cutting his own throat, but he definitely he was thinking

1022
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:02,440
Speaker 2: about it the week prior to the homicides.

1023
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: And you know, when he first moved to Augusta with

1024
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: his family, he had been sort of trying out different

1025
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: churches and ultimately landed with the Universalist Church, which I'll

1026
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: remind you is rooted in the belief that all human souls,

1027
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: no matter what, are ultimately going to be saved by God,

1028
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: which is different than you know, suicide as a sin, murders,

1029
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: you know, all of this stuff. So I think that

1030
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: plays into it. Now, here's the most compelling evidence. Around

1031
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 1: the same time, his wife finds a letter that James

1032
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: Senior had written to his own brother, and he hadn't

1033
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: mailed it yet. Betsy, who is now dead, is flipping

1034
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: through this letter and it says, dear brother, these lines

1035
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 1: are to let you know that I am going on

1036
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 1: a long journey, and I would have you sell what

1037
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: I have and put it out to interest, and put

1038
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: my boys to trades or send them to see I

1039
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: cannot see the distress of my family. God only knows

1040
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: my distress. I would have you put Nathaniel to Uncle Purton,

1041
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: to a tanner's trade. I want James Junior to go

1042
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: to school until sufficient to attend in a store, Benjamin

1043
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 1: to a blacksmith's trade, or to what you think best.

1044
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 1: Be sure to give them learning. If it takes all,

1045
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: divide what is left for I am no more James Purrington.

1046
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: Now what I find interesting is he does not mention

1047
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: one of the girls or his wife in that letter.

1048
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 2: It is all boys, right, you know, this is a

1049
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 2: suicide letter, and very possibly at this point when he's writing,

1050
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 2: his intent was to take out his wife and the

1051
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 2: girls for whatever reason, whatever was in his mind, but

1052
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: preserve his sons. Why and his son's taken care of

1053
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 2: after he was gone. And this is where that night

1054
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 2: when he's going in is his primary focus to kill

1055
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 2: his wife and the girls and somehow preserve the sons.

1056
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 2: But then things go sideways on him for whatever reason,

1057
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 2: you know whatever, or does he just decide even my

1058
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: sons can't you know, survive? Moving forward, and sort of

1059
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 2: what I alluded to with a previous statement, in James

1060
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 2: Senior's mind is that everybody in the house is going

1061
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 2: to be better off dead because they would be taken

1062
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: care of by God than what the upcoming scenario that

1063
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 2: James Senior is seeing for his family with the drought

1064
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 2: or whatever else is going on.

1065
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: And it's interesting when he names off these boys because

1066
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: there's four. There's James the seventeen year old, There's Benjamin

1067
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: the twelve year old, and then you've got Nathaniel and

1068
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 1: Nathan who are eight and six. So if you think

1069
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: about the details, they feel very different than the girls.

1070
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: So you've got James who's hit once on the back

1071
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: and he takes off, but we don't have James Senior

1072
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 1: chasing after him. There's Benjamin, who the corner notes has

1073
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 1: a lot of injuries, like he fought, so I wonder

1074
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: if he walked into something or was found or what happened.

1075
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: Because Benjamin, if you remember, was found in the common area.

1076
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: So James Senior did not go seek him out in

1077
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: a bedroom and the two boys were laying with their

1078
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 1: throats cut next to James Senior, which to me, I

1079
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 1: wondered if they walked up on their dad getting ready

1080
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: to take his own life and he turned and killed

1081
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: them and then killed himself. It's just the boys are

1082
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: a totally different situation than the girls in this scenario.

1083
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 2: Now, okay, what do you think about at this point?

1084
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 2: You know, the culture was is that you know, the

1085
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 2: men were the you know, primary income earners. You know

1086
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 2: they would you know, obviously he was interested in select

1087
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 2: careers for his boys. You know, could that be playing

1088
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 2: in to how he's writing about, you know, to his brother, Hey,

1089
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 2: take care of the boys, you know, but there's no

1090
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 2: future for that the women or the girls in this family.

1091
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: Let's just say that there are no major interpersonal issues

1092
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 1: between the girls and the family obviously. I mean there's

1093
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 1: an eighteen month old Louisa.

1094
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 3: You know.

1095
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: He probably thought they would not be able to survive

1096
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: this shame and would not maybe be able to get

1097
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 1: married or any of that, but the boys would. Because

1098
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,439
Speaker 1: the boys could leave and reinvent themselves at eighteen oh six,

1099
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: they could call themselves whatever they want. It would have

1100
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: been really difficult I think for the girls to have

1101
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: done that without having jobs, there's very little you can

1102
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: do to reinvent yourself. I think as a young woman

1103
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 1: in this time period, that's what I think. I think

1104
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: he in his mind was thinking he was sparing the

1105
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: shame for the girls and the struggle and for the

1106
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: boys they would be able to move on. And then

1107
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: I think he just maybe got blindsided by these different

1108
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 1: boys coming downstairs trying to figure out what's happening.

1109
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 2: Well, you know, he's attacking Betsy, who's screaming, and now

1110
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 2: that at least gets James Junior up, and James Senior

1111
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 2: is now being confronted by the seventeen year old boy

1112
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 2: who's now seeing him. And you know, this is where

1113
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: the dynamics of a crime. The offender can plan it

1114
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 2: in his head and think he's got everything set up,

1115
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 2: but things go sideways and now things get out of control,

1116
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 2: and that's where what the offender does and how the

1117
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 2: offender reacts is so critical and assessing, you know, the

1118
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 2: motive of the offender, and the crime got away from him,

1119
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 2: the case got away from him, and so instead of

1120
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 2: doing what he wanted to do as he outlined in

1121
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 2: his suicide letter. You know, he ends up having to

1122
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 2: take out the whole family. Anytime we have these, you know,

1123
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:51,440
Speaker 2: family annihilator cases, they're horrific and very sad. Do we

1124
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 2: have any information on James Junior and Martha and what

1125
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 2: happened with them?

1126
01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: Well, unfortunately Martha ended up dying.

1127
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 3: Okay, she did.

1128
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 1: She was able to give some information. Of course, with

1129
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: this head wound, she couldn't remember a lot, but she

1130
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:08,959
Speaker 1: was able to recall that I think very pivotal piece

1131
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: of evidence of her father putting a butcher knife to

1132
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: his own throat, which I think gave a lot of

1133
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: context to people. And she died about a month later.

1134
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: I will say, you know, people talk to me all

1135
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 1: the time about our interest in true crime has grown.

1136
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,479
Speaker 1: Here's another example. True crime has been alive and well

1137
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,760
Speaker 1: for as long as crime has been committed. They took

1138
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 1: James Senior's body and put it on display on the

1139
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: front porch along with the razor and the axe for whomever,

1140
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 1: which I'm presuming was hundreds of people to come by

1141
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: and glalk at. People wanted to see it. They really

1142
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: wanted to see this guy. This story. It was devastating

1143
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: for the community, but that sort of odd bloodlust. I

1144
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: don't know if it's eye for an eye or what

1145
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: we would call that now, but that was alive and

1146
01:04:58,120 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: well in this time period in eighteen oh six.

1147
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 2: I do think, you know, in centuries passed, people were

1148
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 2: much more exposed to death and what death looks like.

1149
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 2: And then for the most part, today people are sheltered

1150
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: from it, and so when somebody today sees death, it's

1151
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 2: a traumatic thing. But back then it was something that

1152
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 2: I believe that people were much more used to witnessing.

1153
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,280
Speaker 2: So putting James Senior on display like that, you know,

1154
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 2: people would be throwing up and there'd be screams, you know,

1155
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 2: with people looking at that today, but back then it

1156
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 2: almost sounds like you said, it's an eye for an

1157
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 2: eye and it was a form of true crime entertainment.

1158
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so. James Junior, of course survives, thank goodness.

1159
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 1: He lives with the Ballards for a while and then

1160
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 1: he just vanishes from any kind of records. We don't

1161
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 1: know what happened to him. Hopefully after witnessing all of this,

1162
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: being the lone survivor from a family of ten, you know,

1163
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: hopefully he went on and lived a good life in

1164
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: the early two thousands, the Augusta Historic Preservation Commission found

1165
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: the graves of Betsy and her children. They ended up

1166
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: erecting this really nice bronze memorial plaque at the burial site,

1167
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: which is in the Mount Vernon Cemetery in Augusta. So

1168
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: this was a shock to the community, A horrible story.

1169
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 1: I tell you. I can never ever get used to

1170
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: family annihilation stories. I just those, probably even more than

1171
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: the Edmund Kemper, the Ted Bundy. I am so much

1172
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,640
Speaker 1: more baffled by family annihilators than probably any other category

1173
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:40,439
Speaker 1: of killer, I.

1174
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 3: Have to say.

1175
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: But I thought this was a good story to bring

1176
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,720
Speaker 1: to you, just because it's interesting to know the sequencing

1177
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 1: of events and what happens and how this all unfolds

1178
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: and why somebody would do this.

1179
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 2: No it is, you know, it's a very complex crime scene.

1180
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 2: So I thought you did a good job walking me

1181
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 2: through that. You obviously can't get all the answers and

1182
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 2: details needed to help reconstruct the events, but fundamentally, you know,

1183
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 2: it appears that the right person was accused of the crime,

1184
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 2: and it's just such a sad case.

1185
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: Well, one note that's a bit of a more positive

1186
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: note here, to end on is I love New England

1187
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 1: and I love how deep the history is, including the

1188
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: crime history of New England. And what's great about New

1189
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: England with crime history is that oftentimes we have the

1190
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 1: Martha Ballards, the people who cared so much about their

1191
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 1: neighbors and the stories and interviewing people that they jotted

1192
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 1: down all of this information that would have been missing otherwise.

1193
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 1: I rely on the Martha Ballards to write my books

1194
01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 1: and do these podcasts, and so having a record, a

1195
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: historical record here, even if it came from a midwife,

1196
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: just a normal person, not a historian, not a journalist

1197
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 1: from eighteen six has been pretty invaluable. So boy, big

1198
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: shout out to anybody who covers current events because it

1199
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 1: will be important not only now but to historians in

1200
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 1: the future.

1201
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 2: And you'll have somebody like Kate and knocking on your

1202
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 2: door wanting to get into your diaries.

1203
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: Get ready, listeners, I'll be there. Well, next week we're

1204
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,640
Speaker 1: going to skip the family Annihilator story, I promise, but

1205
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: we'll come back with another good.

1206
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 2: Story, all right, looking forward to it.

1207
01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:34,719
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1208
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,879
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot com slash

1209
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,840
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1210
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1211
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1212
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,520
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1213
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:53,799
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1214
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1215
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1216
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

1217
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1218
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,160
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1219
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1220
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1221
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:16,599
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now