1
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:18,080
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Charles Manson. Will he ever

2
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,240
Speaker 1: go away? You know, I'm pretty sure he was declared dead,

3
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,920
Speaker 1: but sadly, his reign of evil goes on and his

4
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:35,520
Speaker 1: minions continue his work tormenting his victims' families. I'm gonna

5
00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:51,760
Speaker 1: tell you how Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. When you

6
00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 1: heard the others come back and talking about the killings,

7
00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: what was their attitude, their demeanor toward what they had done.

8
00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,360
Speaker 1: I didn't hear about it from the girls until we

9
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:11,839
Speaker 1: were in the desert, but they were almost like bragging.

10
00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,920
Speaker 1: That's that's how I remember them telling me. It was.

11
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,520
Speaker 1: They were kind of like morbidly gleeful about it. In

12
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,399
Speaker 1: what way? What did they say? It's just like, oh,

13
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 1: and we did, you know, when we did this, and

14
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,600
Speaker 1: we did that and did what? You know. At first,

15
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,800
Speaker 1: I think one of the girls told me that they

16
00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:38,800
Speaker 1: they you know, they they stabbed somebody, and first, you know,

17
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,960
Speaker 1: and then it became then it was fun. Morbidly gleeful.

18
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: That is the way Manson's disciples responded to mass and murder,

19
00:01:54,280 --> 00:02:00,320
Speaker 1: his reign of evil, now still being carried out by

20
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:08,440
Speaker 1: his minions. How money online murder rebelia again. Thank you

21
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,200
Speaker 1: for being with us, with me an all star panel

22
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:11,840
Speaker 1: to break it down and put it back together again.

23
00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,400
Speaker 1: LA criminal defense attorney Troy Slayton. You can find him

24
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: at Troy Slayton. He's with Slayton Lawyer's APC. Doctor Sherry

25
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 1: Schwartz forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation at panther Mitigation

26
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 1: dot com. She's also an author of a set of books,

27
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 1: most notably The Psychology of Criminal Behavior. Boy do we

28
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,360
Speaker 1: need her? Special Guests, you're joining me right now. Longtime

29
00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 1: friend and colleague. If you don't know his name, I

30
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,240
Speaker 1: hope you never forget it, Andy Kahn. He is the

31
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:52,120
Speaker 1: director of victim Services and Advocacy at Crime Stoppers of Houston.

32
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 1: You can find him at Crimestoppers dot org. And he

33
00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,640
Speaker 1: coined the phrase that I've used many many times, murder rebellia.

34
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns now the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas.

35
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,160
Speaker 1: That's Austin. And when you listen to what doctor Crowns

36
00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,800
Speaker 1: has to say, whether you agree with him or not,

37
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:18,520
Speaker 1: only ten percent of medical examiners ever achieve the title

38
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:24,959
Speaker 1: of Deputy Chief medical Examiner. My longtime friend superhero Mark

39
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 1: Class the founder of Class Kids Foundations. You can find

40
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 1: him at class Kids dot org. He has devoted his

41
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,720
Speaker 1: life to seeking justice after the murder of his girl, Polly.

42
00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 1: But first two Elisia Stroutman, author of Restless Souls, The

43
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: Sharon Tape Family, account of stardom, the Manson murders, and

44
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,000
Speaker 1: a Crusade for Justice. This is Patty Ta's partner of

45
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,360
Speaker 1: nine years. You can find her at Elisa's statement dot net. Elisa,

46
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,680
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. Charles Manson items are his

47
00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 1: number one seller. Rambling prison letters, some written in code

48
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,920
Speaker 1: with a swastik as signature, so for one hundred and

49
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,160
Speaker 1: fifty dollars a page. There's even locks of hair from

50
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 1: killers and sketches like this one from Vampire Could Killer

51
00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 1: Rod Farrell and far Farrell, who told people he was

52
00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,360
Speaker 1: a five hundred year old vampire, was convicted of murdering

53
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,760
Speaker 1: a Eustace couple in nineteen ninety six. Haller befriended Farrell

54
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,839
Speaker 1: and even visited him in prison, but behind his financial

55
00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,719
Speaker 1: gain is loss. I miss you so much. Rat Field.

56
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: Zaldivar's nineteen year old son Alex, was murdered last year

57
00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 1: shot execution style in the head Zaldivar Fields Haller makes

58
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,159
Speaker 1: his money off the backs of innocent victims. That's very

59
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 1: disgusting to see something like that. You know, he should

60
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,919
Speaker 1: go find himself a real job and sell other stuff

61
00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,640
Speaker 1: online into profit off of us. You were just hearing

62
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: Matt Grant at Wish too, what is murderabilia? And right

63
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: now it's rearing its ugly head because what were you're

64
00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,440
Speaker 1: learning is that for sale right now on eBay? Who's

65
00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:03,520
Speaker 1: doing this? Yarrant Tate's family and manson victim very distraught

66
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 1: jewelry dresses, a ring for one hundred and eighty thousand

67
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,480
Speaker 1: dollars asking price, all claiming to be worn by Sharon Tate.

68
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 1: Her sister says no way straight out to Elissa Strottmann,

69
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:24,880
Speaker 1: author of Restless Souls, why are people still tormenting the

70
00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 1: murder victims? You know, that's that's the biggest point of this, Nancy,

71
00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,039
Speaker 1: is that there were more than just the victims that

72
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,279
Speaker 1: were so brutally murdered in nine the family members and

73
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,960
Speaker 1: friends of victims as well, and they are repeatedly, year

74
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 1: after years, over fifty years, victimized by things like this.

75
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,279
Speaker 1: You know, I can't speak to the authenticity of these items.

76
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,719
Speaker 1: But one thing really jumped out at me in the

77
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,040
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty thousand dollars item, and it says retreat

78
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,599
Speaker 1: from Jay sebris car after the man's learner. And the

79
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,200
Speaker 1: important thing to know about that one statement was that

80
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,799
Speaker 1: Jay stebris car was at its fine scene, which means

81
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 1: it was evident. Now, if this was maken from this cause,

82
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,480
Speaker 1: it should have been returned to the family members, whether

83
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 1: four taps, but it should have been sent back to them.

84
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 1: You know what. You're absolutely right, Alista Strautman. It sounds

85
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,840
Speaker 1: like vultures like swooping in. If items were taken from

86
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 1: the car at the crime scene, why weren't those items

87
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,800
Speaker 1: A turned into police or b given to the families?

88
00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 1: Straight out to you, Andy Kahan, Director of Victims Services

89
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,760
Speaker 1: and Advocacy, Andy, take a listen to this. It's a business.

90
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,880
Speaker 1: Eric Holler says, makes him a killing one. Critics say

91
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,280
Speaker 1: goes too far sickening. You know, I would personally like

92
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,360
Speaker 1: to buy all that stuff. Let me burn it. Charles Manson, Yes,

93
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 1: from postcards to paintings, Holler hawks murder Abelia, intimate items

94
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,720
Speaker 1: from notorious serial killers, and rapists, While the Jacksonville entrepreneur

95
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,200
Speaker 1: won't say how much money he's made off his website,

96
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,720
Speaker 1: Serial Killers, Inc. I'm Aaron mccab. Merchandise from Ted Bundy

97
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,000
Speaker 1: and John Wayne Gacy have sold for hundreds even thousands

98
00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 1: of dollars. A Ted Bundy Christmas card and a Bible

99
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,960
Speaker 1: owned by Elean Warnos sold for three grand apiece, and

100
00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 1: this clown painting by Gacy, who was nicknamed the Killer Clown,

101
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 1: is selling for twenty seven hundred. As far as profit,

102
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,240
Speaker 1: I make a huge profit, and I'm proud to say

103
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,600
Speaker 1: that it might sound cold, but I have no guilt

104
00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,360
Speaker 1: for what I do. No, it does sound cold, Andy Kahn.

105
00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,840
Speaker 1: Just then, Usually I have outrage when it comes to murderabilia,

106
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,840
Speaker 1: but just then I just felt stopped in my tracks

107
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:44,560
Speaker 1: at this guy's total lack of empathy for a murder victims' families. Yeah.

108
00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,520
Speaker 1: I've dealt with Eric Deane, whose real name is Eric Holler,

109
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,240
Speaker 1: who runs the site out of his home in Jacksonville, Florida,

110
00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 1: for years. I've there are seven dealers throughout the country

111
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,200
Speaker 1: that operate what we call murderabilia sites. I've been monitoring

112
00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,119
Speaker 1: these sites for over twenty years. As you well know

113
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 1: in your show that you had When we used to

114
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,360
Speaker 1: do a lot of shows on murderabilia, eBay we used

115
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 1: to be the primary condoment. We had a two year

116
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 1: battle with eBay. eBay eventually relented and removed murder Bilia,

117
00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 1: though obviously that's now in contesting right now with the

118
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,560
Speaker 1: Sharon Tate items. So the dealers basically kind of like

119
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 1: exterminating cockroaches when you remove them from one site, they

120
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,120
Speaker 1: simply set up shopping our own. So you have seven

121
00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,080
Speaker 1: dealers that operate under the alias names like Murder Museum,

122
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 1: True Crime Auction House and Murder Auction, Serial Killers, Inc.

123
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 1: Death Merchant, and so on. It's probably one of the

124
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,080
Speaker 1: most insidious sick industries that I've ever watched on now

125
00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,080
Speaker 1: for over twenty some odd years, my pet phrase has

126
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,240
Speaker 1: always been, no one should be able to rob, rape,

127
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,559
Speaker 1: and murder and then turn around and make a buck

128
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 1: off of it. I'm a firm believer in free enterprise

129
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 1: and capitalism, but I think you got to draw the

130
00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,480
Speaker 1: line somewhere and from a victim's perspective, and as someone

131
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 1: who serves on the board of parents and murdered children

132
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,160
Speaker 1: and surviving family members, on homicide. It's one of the

133
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,720
Speaker 1: most nauseating and disgusting feelings. As Mark Classwell will certainly

134
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,040
Speaker 1: attest you to find out the person who murdered one

135
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,600
Speaker 1: of your loved ones now has personalized items being hawked

136
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,760
Speaker 1: by third parties for pure profit. It's absolutely gutty and

137
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,400
Speaker 1: it's shameful that in our country we allow this to

138
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:41,160
Speaker 1: prive crime stories. With Nancy Grace, guys, we are talking

139
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,520
Speaker 1: about the most recent incident of murder Abelia where jewelry

140
00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 1: and even clothing of Charles Manson victim, the beautiful Sharon Tate,

141
00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,839
Speaker 1: those items being hot for a profit on eBay. Her

142
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,120
Speaker 1: family says they don't even belong to her. What is

143
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,199
Speaker 1: in the mind of people talking murder rebellia? Things are

144
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:09,880
Speaker 1: like serial killers toe nails, their hair, their skin scrapings,

145
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:17,120
Speaker 1: autopsy photos, crime scene photos. Just the morbid aspect of

146
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,319
Speaker 1: what is being done to make a dollar is truly

147
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,720
Speaker 1: stomach turning. Take a listen to this. And I took

148
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,560
Speaker 1: the knife and I started stabbing, and I turned into

149
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 1: an animal almost you know, I just completely let out

150
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,679
Speaker 1: on that woman's back stabbing. I I didn't really have

151
00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 1: any idea in my mind, but it's a real feeling.

152
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,719
Speaker 1: It's not even like getting a piece of meat. It's

153
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,440
Speaker 1: much tougher. I had to use both hands and all

154
00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 1: my strength behind it to get it in. And so

155
00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,240
Speaker 1: once they started, the feeling was so weird that I

156
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,400
Speaker 1: just kept doing it. She was dead because I remember

157
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,079
Speaker 1: seeing her laying bat in front of her closet, all

158
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,560
Speaker 1: bloody on her stomach, and her head was covered so

159
00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 1: I didn't see her face. I kind of wish I

160
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 1: had it because I could see what I've done. More.

161
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,080
Speaker 1: Katy get the knife and the food and it wouldn't go.

162
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,719
Speaker 1: I remember the man laying on the sofa, Google and

163
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,040
Speaker 1: deep bloody Google and blew it as the free kiep

164
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,000
Speaker 1: And then Katy and Jax when I came out of

165
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,480
Speaker 1: that bedroom and we're taking a shower, and then after

166
00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,480
Speaker 1: that we were hungry until we went and we took

167
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,560
Speaker 1: some cheese and milk out of the repreator. You are

168
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:31,240
Speaker 1: listening to Manson disciple Leslie Van Houghton describing stabbing a

169
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:37,400
Speaker 1: human how it felt, and that she was so ecstatic,

170
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:44,920
Speaker 1: truly reverberating with ecstasy, that she kept tearing the knife

171
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:51,560
Speaker 1: down the victim's skin mark. Class you know what, Sometimes

172
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,720
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. And I've been

173
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,960
Speaker 1: in court with many a pro and managed to come

174
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: up with arguments right then and there. But when I

175
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,719
Speaker 1: hear that that's Leslie van Houten Manson disciple describe me

176
00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,360
Speaker 1: having milk and cheese the victor's refrigerator after she just

177
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,560
Speaker 1: tore a knife through their skin because she liked the

178
00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:21,080
Speaker 1: way it felt. It's just do you ever get overwhelmed?

179
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,559
Speaker 1: Mark Klass, Well, I'm a little overwhelmed. I'm a little

180
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 1: overwhelmed right now. You know, Nancy, the very first time

181
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,400
Speaker 1: I ever heard of memorabilia was when I was contacted

182
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,600
Speaker 1: by Andy Kahan back in nineteen something, nineteen ninety something.

183
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,840
Speaker 1: I had a lot of their back then. Mark, I

184
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,480
Speaker 1: know you didn't, but according to me, I was not

185
00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,320
Speaker 1: alive then. But you know, he told me that my

186
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,680
Speaker 1: daughter's killer had things for sale on the internet, and

187
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:56,840
Speaker 1: I literally lost it. I became apoplectic, I became nonfunctional,

188
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,680
Speaker 1: just realizing the fact that that this this heinous individual,

189
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,920
Speaker 1: this individual who didn't even deserve to be alive, was

190
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:10,199
Speaker 1: profiteering on Paulie's death, and what he was selling were

191
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,600
Speaker 1: drawings that he made and They were remarkably unremarkable drawings.

192
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 1: There was nothing to them. They didn't even seem to

193
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,440
Speaker 1: have a sense of the maccabb about them. But he

194
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,720
Speaker 1: was selling them for a high price based solely on

195
00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 1: the fact that he had murdered my daughter. So I

196
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 1: took that to Adam Schiff, who was a state senator

197
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,560
Speaker 1: in California at that time, and worked with Senator Schiff

198
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:42,320
Speaker 1: to craft the bill that would that would cap the

199
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,160
Speaker 1: profits on murderabilia only to their intrinsic value, not to

200
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 1: any added on value based on the crime that prompted them.

201
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 1: So I understand where Sharon Kate's sister is coming from.

202
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 1: I understand where her family is coming from. And it's

203
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,880
Speaker 1: beyond the hail that all of these years later, over

204
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,720
Speaker 1: fifty years later, they're still suffering the effects of that

205
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: crime because of the these third grade individuals on the

206
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:17,480
Speaker 1: Internet that are selling fingernail clippings or fake jewelry or

207
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And it's something that should have been

208
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 1: ended long ago, but for some reason, there is not

209
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,040
Speaker 1: the wherewithal to outlaw this kind of activity once and

210
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 1: for all. I agree with MARKA one hundred percent. Why

211
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 1: is this even allowed to happen. Why is this even allowed?

212
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,400
Speaker 1: Why is this a quote unquote privilege to these killers

213
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,000
Speaker 1: to be able to profit from their crimes. Why did

214
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,000
Speaker 1: we let those laws go and that they continue on today?

215
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,560
Speaker 1: And you know, Nancy to what Mark just said. You

216
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 1: know one of the descriptions in this it says, this

217
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 1: lacks dis believes the love a mother had for her

218
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 1: child as well as it's over a hundred years ago,

219
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,760
Speaker 1: clearly meant as an heirloom the charon would have passed

220
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 1: down to her children. How about her How about her parents?

221
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,920
Speaker 1: If this is real? What about her parents? What about

222
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,400
Speaker 1: her sisters? What about her nieces and nephew. This is

223
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,760
Speaker 1: the type of stuff that is being taken away from

224
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 1: victims who all they have left our memories, items and photos.

225
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 1: It is a disgrace that this has happened. Am I

226
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,920
Speaker 1: hearing doctor Sherry Schwartz or at Lisa's strotman that was

227
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 1: Elisa Stappin. I agree with you, and I want to

228
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 1: go back to Mark class and ask Mark when you

229
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 1: were first alerted by Andy Kahn who's with us today,

230
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 1: that Polly's attack r her kidnapper, her murderer. Polly was

231
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 1: just a little girl, when he took her from a

232
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:49,440
Speaker 1: spin and night party and murdered her. And that smug

233
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,760
Speaker 1: face he had on in the courtroom at sentencing, and

234
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,040
Speaker 1: I remember, I remember Mark Class. You tried to get

235
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,080
Speaker 1: to him, you tried to lunch at him, and you

236
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,200
Speaker 1: were held back. I wish to God you'd made it.

237
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 1: Would this piece of crap was selling drawings and they

238
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 1: relate to Polly, your girl. No, they're not drawings of Polly.

239
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 1: But the only reason anybody even knows his name is

240
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 1: because he murdered Mark Class's girl, Polly, and he is

241
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 1: making money not only off drawings, but pictures of himself

242
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:44,640
Speaker 1: and shorts. I saw those online. I nearly gagged. How

243
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 1: is this guy able to do that? When you first

244
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 1: heard that from Andy Kott, what went through your mind? Well,

245
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 1: I want to be clear about this, Nancy. Outside of

246
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,920
Speaker 1: the realization that he had actually done this to Polly,

247
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 1: which took me a little while to process, this was

248
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,639
Speaker 1: I think arguably the worst moment that I've had over

249
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,480
Speaker 1: the course of the last twenty odd years. And I'm

250
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,760
Speaker 1: not even quite sure why that is. Because we faced

251
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 1: this guy down in trial. The events that you just

252
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,320
Speaker 1: recounted actually did happen. But when Annie told me about

253
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,479
Speaker 1: this guy profit hering doing these things and that he

254
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 1: wasn't the only one that had included fingernail clippings, I

255
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: truly and really lost it. In fact, I believe that

256
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,680
Speaker 1: I was on the radio with you at one point

257
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 1: talking to one of these vendors, and I had a complete,

258
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:48,120
Speaker 1: end total on air meltdown. It's it's I don't know

259
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: why this hit me more than other things hit me,

260
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,680
Speaker 1: but it was about as close to touching evil as

261
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,600
Speaker 1: I've ever been. It's blood, money playing and simple mark

262
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,639
Speaker 1: in the fact that you had no idea this was

263
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,480
Speaker 1: going on, and if we had an alerted you, this

264
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: particular individual would be continuing to be allowed to do this.

265
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,439
Speaker 1: Going back to the Manton items on eBay, you know,

266
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 1: eBay could take a stand very simply, and you know

267
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 1: we forced them to, you know, you know, years ago,

268
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,239
Speaker 1: to take a stand on murder bilia. eBay doesn't have

269
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 1: to allow this. They can simply say the items are

270
00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,919
Speaker 1: being contested, we're pulling them and we don't have to

271
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 1: allow this to being sold. So, you know, shame on

272
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,960
Speaker 1: eBay for even allowing them. Yeah, how did you get

273
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 1: them to back off the first time. Andy. The first time,

274
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 1: it was a two year battle. I put them through

275
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,560
Speaker 1: the Ringer through basically a national media campaign of exposing

276
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,720
Speaker 1: hundreds of serial killers, mass murderers, school shooters. They were

277
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 1: having items, personalized items being showed on eBay, and then

278
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 1: we were I was approached by a producer from twenty

279
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: twenty who wanted to do a segment and Mark is

280
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,040
Speaker 1: on that segment as well with me. And at that

281
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 1: time we had just started crafting what we call notoriety

282
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 1: for profit laws. Most people in this country still assume

283
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 1: we have what's called Son of Sam laws, which restrict

284
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,920
Speaker 1: a convicted balance ability to profit, but most people are

285
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,440
Speaker 1: unaware of that. The Son of Sam laws were ruled

286
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 1: unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court all the way back

287
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one in a case involving Simon and

288
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: Schuster versus Henry Hill, who's better known as the main

289
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 1: character in the movie Good Fellaws. So Son of Sam

290
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,440
Speaker 1: laws were struck down because most of the language dealt

291
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,600
Speaker 1: with the issue of free speech, and as you well know, Nancy,

292
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 1: most courts frown on any language refuting free speech. So

293
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,720
Speaker 1: what I started doing was crafting laws not dealing with

294
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: the free speech angle, but simply the issue of profiting.

295
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 1: So in other words, talk all you want, scratch, sniff, paint, doodle, whatever,

296
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,160
Speaker 1: you just don't make money off of it. So at

297
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,600
Speaker 1: that time, we had a bill filed in Texas. Mark

298
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,159
Speaker 1: actually had a bill that ended up being passed in California.

299
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 1: So about two weeks before twenty twenty was scheduled air

300
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: their segment, eBay sent out a news release stating they

301
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 1: will no longer allow the sale of murder Delia at

302
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 1: a respect for victims families and had the timing of

303
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 1: their news release in a twenty twenty story was merely coincidental.

304
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,479
Speaker 1: So that's how it happened. Well, how the heck did

305
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 1: it devolve into this? Because it's happening all over again.

306
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just

307
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 1: joining us, take a listen to our friend Matt Grant

308
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 1: at W S. H. Richard was the first guy that

309
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 1: I went into business with. He was the first guy

310
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 1: that I wrote. He was the first guy that I

311
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 1: heard back from. He wanted me to sell his artwork

312
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 1: back to nineties. Did you ever get an ask for

313
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 1: a cut of it or did you ask for anything

314
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 1: in return. I can't say that these are letters from

315
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 1: Charles Manson, and reading his writing is practically impossible. There's

316
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,679
Speaker 1: a very small Manson signature right there. I think he

317
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 1: had signed it somewhere, very very small. I think I

318
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 1: can't see right my life there players are playing in.

319
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: I think there's a signature of swastika right there. I

320
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,719
Speaker 1: can't see because my eyes are so bad. I've got

321
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 1: better Manson signature. That's another letter of his. Yes, that's

322
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: another letter. I'll show you a better Manson signature. And

323
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 1: this goes from one hundred and fifty dollars just so

324
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 1: one page Charlie Manson letter. It's almost too much to

325
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: take in. I want you to juxtapose that to something

326
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: I just played earlier hour cut to listen to what

327
00:21:52,800 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: the Manson Disciples says happened as Manson's followers tore apart,

328
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 1: literally tore apart their victims. And I took the knife

329
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: and I started stabbing, and I turned into the animal almost,

330
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, I just completely let out on that woman's

331
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: bad stabbing. I didn't I didn't really have any idea

332
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: in my mind, but into a real feeling. It's not

333
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: even like getting a piece of meat. It's mentioned coffort.

334
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: I had out to doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, author

335
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: of psychology of criminal behavior at panther mitigation dot com,

336
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 1: doctor Sherry Schwarts as a prose former prosecutor. It was

337
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: not my duty or burden to prove what is going

338
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 1: on and the mind of a killer. But let me

339
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 1: ask you, did you just hear manson disciple Leslie van

340
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 1: Houghton doing Manson's bidding, literally tearing apart the victim's skin.

341
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 1: Help me, I have to tell you that listening to that,

342
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, and I had watched over the years their

343
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: parole hearings because I was interested in the process and

344
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: wanting to see are they going to get out? I

345
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: hadn't appreciated before really the utter lack of empathy. It's

346
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: a very different seeing the person than just listening to them.

347
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: And it almost sounds to me, as she's talking about that,

348
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: that there is sort of a sense of pride. Listen

349
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: to the amount of detail that she goes into, and

350
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: if there's not a sense of pride, there's certainly a

351
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: glaring lack of empathy. Right she knows that this is

352
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: being recorded, She's going on and on and on about

353
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: these gory details. I mean down to the detail of

354
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 1: oh it was, you know, tougher than a piece of meat.

355
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's not what you would think, and then

356
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: we went went and ate sandwiches. This is somebody who

357
00:23:54,320 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: has no respect, no reverence for any whatsoever of what

358
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: has been done. And I want to go to Troy Slayton,

359
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: following up on what doctor Sherry Schwartz just said forensic psychologists. Troy, A,

360
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: there's a rhetorical question, how do you represent people like that?

361
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: But I know you're not going to give me a

362
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 1: straight answer on that. But b you're the LA criminal

363
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: defense attorney. How do people still get away with profiting

364
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: of murders like that? Including Sharon Tates Her sister has

365
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: been thrown into the abyss an emotional abyss by clothing

366
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: purportedly belonging to her sister, Sharon Tate, pregnant at the

367
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: time she was murdered, clothing now on sale on eBay

368
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: and jewelry purporting to belong to her. How are they

369
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: still getting away with it? Troy well Nancy. Several states

370
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: have taken action, including Texas, California, New Jersey, Michigan, Utah

371
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: banning the sale of the so called murderabilia, and so

372
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: the states have taken action. Several years ago, there was

373
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: an attempt in Congress. Senators Conran and Klobuchar tried to

374
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: pass a bill that would have banned this on a

375
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: federal level. Unfortunately that attempt failed. And you have to

376
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: be very careful in crafting something like this because the

377
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: ACLU is working hard to fight against any type of

378
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: prior restraint. Okay, well stop right there. The American Civil

379
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: Liberties Union, they are defied for your constitutional and God

380
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: given liberties to sell a serial killer's toe, nails and

381
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 1: skin scrapings. They really they believe that no matter who

382
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: you are, whether you're a crime victim or the perpetrator

383
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: of horrific, heinous acts, that you have the same constitutional rights.

384
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: And there are even some prisoners who will go so

385
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: far as to melt M and m's and use paint

386
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: brushes created by their own human hair to paint and

387
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: sell their artwork out of the prison in a choice.

388
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: So it's just such a pleasure talking to you. I

389
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: didn't know that, but that's something for me to tuck

390
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: away and never think about again. Doctor Kendall, Crown's Deputy

391
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: Chief Medical examer and Travis County, Texas. That's Austin. What

392
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: is she talking about when she is describing stabbing the

393
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: victim in the back and then ripping ripping the knife

394
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: down the victim's back, and she said that it was difficult, difficult?

395
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,919
Speaker 1: What was she was she tearing through muscle? What was

396
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: she doing? So when you stab someone, it only takes

397
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: about three pounds of pressure to get through the skin

398
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: surface to get to the organs. So what it sounds

399
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: like she's describing is she's probably tearing through the cartilage

400
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: or the ribs that are along the back, and that

401
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: would actually make it difficult once you insert the knife

402
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: to move it because of the bones or the or

403
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: the ribs. So what it sounds like she's describing as

404
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: pulling it through bone or having to basically hack her

405
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: way through the bone to continue pulling. You know, Nancy,

406
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: if I can just comment real quickly on that Van Houghton, Sorry,

407
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: go ahead, dear. I released that tape about two years

408
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: ago for one reason and one reason only. That tape

409
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: was done at the time that Leslie Van Houghton was

410
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: switching attorney her post attorney was fired. So this is

411
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 1: the second half of the class. So we're talking all

412
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: the way back in nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy. That

413
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: was her description of the lobby aso murders. Today she

414
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: takes that same thing and she saft so fick while

415
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: I was doing this, and everything sounded very benign about

416
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: what she was doing. This is the reality of what

417
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: these people do. And I think it speaks to why

418
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: murder abilia is so readily kind of expected in our society.

419
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: Unless she's been victimized. It is because people suget how

420
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: horrible and brutal these murders books and it's people could

421
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: be reminded of that more often, maybe they wouldn't want

422
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: to buy these items. What she was speaking to were

423
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: her own feelings back then that she says, you know,

424
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: I didn't feel this, and I didn't feel that, and

425
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: I just barely stabbed her after she was dead, and

426
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: you know this, and that they asked the blood was

427
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: still running out of the Lobbyancea's body. They ramsacked the closet,

428
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: they took clothing, they took other items from the house itself,

429
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: which for all we know, could end up on a

430
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: murderabilia site, you know, and now nobody remembers the bootality

431
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: of this, and that's why that tap is so important.

432
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: Let's go back and remember what happened on those tonight.

433
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about what Sharon Tate's sister is going

434
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: through right now. And I've often described mark class to

435
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: you and Andy Cohn when asked about the murder of

436
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: my fiance, Keith. What I haven't really talked about as

437
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: much is what happened in the courtroom when I was

438
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: a witness. I remember coming down off the witness stand.

439
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: It was two levels of steps up way up by

440
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: the judge, and coming down I glanced over at the

441
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: States Council table and saw evidence, including the shirt Keith

442
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: had been wearing that morning when he went to work.

443
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: It was a denim shirt, except now it was covered

444
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: in dried blood, and there were other items there. That's

445
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: the one I remember. I can only imagine what Sharon Tate,

446
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: pregnant when she was murdered, sister is going through if

447
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: someone if I found out someone was trying to sell

448
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: that shirt or sell autopsy photos of Keith. It's just

449
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: what Elissa Strotman, author of author of Usseless souls just

450
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: said it seemingly only matters to us crime victims. But

451
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: I think any thinking or would not want this. I mean,

452
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: Mark Class just say verbalizing what Sharon Tate's sister must

453
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: be going through when she allows herself to think about it,

454
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: It's got to be excruciating. And you have gone through this,

455
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: Mark Class, well, I have indend it's everything that was

456
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: described Nancy. Like I said, it was the worst possible

457
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: moment outside of learning about Paulie's death itself. But in

458
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: defensive I don't want to say in defensive, but the

459
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: Sharon Tate's family became instrumental in creating victims' rights in

460
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: the United States. They really barely existed. Her mother, Doris Tate,

461
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: spent years after that crime in bed in almost a

462
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 1: comatose state. But at some point she decided that she

463
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: needed to do something to memorialize her daughter as something

464
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: more than just the Hollywood curiosity, and she started to

465
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,479
Speaker 1: pound the pavements in Sacramento, and she created the Dorist

466
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: Hate Act. She really became one of the very first

467
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: victims advocates in the United States, and her actions spawned

468
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: a great movement that for some period of time protected

469
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: crime victims. Unfortunately, then the Internet came around and everything changed.

470
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. The evil of Charles Manson

471
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: is still being carried out by his dominions. Manson is

472
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: the biggest wheeler in Yeah, just the Devil's hinchman. And

473
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: it's amazing to me this is still happening. Um, you

474
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: know what, take a listen again. Let's get real. I

475
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: don't want to even hear Charlie Manson's voice, So let's

476
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: listen to Leslie Mannahut and his chief disciple and our

477
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: cut number three. This but a mood of it, had

478
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: no sense behind it. We were all almost fascinated by

479
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: this thought of killing me. It had to be done,

480
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: and really doing was to saw that I had to

481
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: be done. Me and Katy and See and Clem. We

482
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 1: all went out that night. We went driving around, couldn't

483
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: find any place, and I was tired, and so we

484
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: went to sleep. When I woke up, I heard Charlie

485
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: talking into Sadie and he said, they think it's a

486
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: robbery to die up, Just go on, and I got

487
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: the wallets, just making quick and easy. So we went in.

488
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: You know the woman, She turned around and what are

489
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: you guys doing here. She was really kind, just gonna

490
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: take your money. We was forced to go the women

491
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: google and pretty hood on her because all of a

492
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: sudden she jumped up, she got the lamp and I

493
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: put her back. What was happening to Leo? And we

494
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: kept moving. We w all right, and then Katy tried

495
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: to bold and then I send it describing the martyrs

496
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: wiping out multiple victims and then taking their stuff, and

497
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: that evil is going on right now, Andy Khan, because

498
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 1: the victims items purportedly are still being sold on e Bay.

499
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: He swore they weren't gonna let this happen anymore, but

500
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: they are. Andy, what are some of the items you

501
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: have seen? I mentioned I think it was Rocindez Ramirez,

502
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: just his toe nails, Yeah he had, Yeah, he had

503
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: foot scrapings that they were being sold. That was I

504
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: actually came up with a top ten lost just because

505
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: it was The items that I was seeing were just

506
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: s tell me, probably the worst items that I've seen.

507
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: I can't, I guess I could. I'll describe it as

508
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: bodily fluid from a Massachusetts school shooter that was placed

509
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: on a magazine. Carver, a dealer actually went to where

510
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: James Burger Junior, an African American man who most people

511
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: remember the victim and the Jasper dragging death a murdered

512
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: Billya dealer went to the site where he was dragged

513
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: to death on a highway and scooped up rocks and pavement.

514
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: Then he had the audacity to go to Bird's grave site.

515
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 1: He has pictures scooping up dirt and then posting them

516
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: up for sale on Bird's gray site. That was about

517
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: as revolting as it can get. I have, you know,

518
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: I have items, and the reason I purchase a lot

519
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: of items mainly because most people don't believe this industry exists.

520
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: So I thought, you know, what would be prudent for

521
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: me to get items? So when I do lectures, when

522
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 1: I speak to elected officials, I can actually show them

523
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: that this industry isn't burgeoning and it's thriving. I have

524
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: a California fingernail serial killers fingernail clippings, pieces of clothing

525
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 1: or shirts. Clime scenes photos are really big in vogue

526
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 1: right now, and actually Facebook allows a dealer to post

527
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: crime scene photos up for sale. Manson was the biggest

528
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: wheeler and dealer. He actually had CDs. He recorded from

529
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: his prison cell and he sent them to a company

530
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: called Hight Devil Records, who actually on the market put

531
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: out three Manson CDs to be sold sell dust from

532
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: someone who was in there. You name, anything that can

533
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: be attached to a high profile killer can and will

534
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: be sold on the market. You know, Nancy, I'm not

535
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: sure if you've heard of the Hunted museum that is

536
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,959
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas. And I bring this up because this

537
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: guy has taken everything from serial killers to victims. Sharon

538
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,959
Speaker 1: Tate's wedding dress is in this place that he bought

539
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 1: some an auction. Other items from Sharon Tator in this

540
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: place items that belong to Manson. So this isn't just

541
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: on the internet. This is like one of the biggest

542
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: attractions in Las Vegas is just basically murderabilia museum. On

543
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,240
Speaker 1: top of that, the same man that owns that museum

544
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: actually purchased the La Bianca House for one reason and

545
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: one reason only. He planned to turn it into a

546
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: murderabilia museum. And the only reason he didn't do that

547
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 1: is because he was turned down for zoning house and

548
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: facts on the market. This isn't just this is pandemic

549
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: to the point take a listen to Steve Burgion w

550
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: lk Ynis Louisville. You could even shop by category cannibals,

551
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: gay killers, satanic killers, and school shooters. There are also

552
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: other sites selling murderabilia where you can buy serial killer

553
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: trading cards, Dalmer calendar, rare footage of the Dalmer trial

554
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: and his TV appearances. Damer eight some of his seventeen victims.

555
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: This would be a subject role consideration hearings for Charles

556
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: Online you can buy copies of Charles manson parole hearings.

557
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: Manson had his own Family of Killers. Artwork of John

558
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: Gaycy sells for thousands of dollars. He was known as

559
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: the killer clown to Danda Sherry Schwartz forhensic psychologist. You

560
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: can find her at panthermitigation dot com. The killers themselves

561
00:37:54,719 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 1: are the devil. But who are these people sell memorabilia?

562
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: What's going on in their minds? These are individuals, Nancy,

563
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: who on some level are con artists. They may not

564
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: be like the con artists that approach you on the

565
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: street and try to scam you, but they use similar

566
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: techniques to draw people in to buy these things, and

567
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: they don't care about the impact. One of your guests

568
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: earlier said that one of these sellers has absolutely no

569
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: problem whatsoever with what he's doing. He doesn't feel guilty

570
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: about it at all. And he's making a killing on it.

571
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 1: He's profiting on this. And so these are individuals to

572
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: sell their wares or you know, these items that they

573
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: come up with. They use emotional appeals to draw people in. So,

574
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: for example, one of the items that's on sale on

575
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: eBay that supposedly belong to Sharontate the dress, there's an

576
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: emotional appeal in there. It's somebody saying, oh, I'm nine.

577
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 1: The seller is saying, I'm ninety three years old, and

578
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: this belonged to my late son. This was part of

579
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: his collection. And I'm just trying to recoup costs, you know.

580
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: And I don't really know very much about this industry.

581
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to get rich. Well, but of course

582
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: you are, because why are you selling this? And even worse,

583
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: why are you trying to profit on a family's trauma,

584
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: you know, And so these are these are really it's

585
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: very infidious, as one of your guests said earlier, because

586
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: it's subtle and because to the average person who looks

587
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: at this, you know, they might do an eye roll

588
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: and say, oh, well, maybe it's for real, maybe it's not,

589
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: and who would spend so much money on that silly thing.

590
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: But really all you have to do is listen to

591
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: Mark Class say, you know, I had a meltdown when

592
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: I found out my daughter's killer was selling these things.

593
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: That's a trauma response. And really can act with this

594
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: idea that when you are feeding into this and you're

595
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: buying these items, and you are perpetuating this type of

596
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: a business, you're actually perpetuating the victims families trauma. And

597
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: the Tate family has been dealing with this for fifty

598
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: two years, Nancy, fifty two years, and not just a

599
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: Tate family, but others. Mark Class, I want to end

600
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: with you why Yeah, Well, the selling, trading, even existence

601
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: of this, this murder rebelia is nothing more than a

602
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: total and complete revictimization of the families that are involved

603
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: on the murder end of of of these transactions. Every

604
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: time I see or hear about one of these things,

605
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: it makes my blood boil. Um Andy knows about this.

606
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: I've talked to him many times about this. He's a

607
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: true champion in trying to eliminate this horrible stuff, but

608
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: unfortunately it continues to exist. And as long as we

609
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: continue as we're doing now to coddle these prisoners and

610
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: have organizations like the ACLU stand up for their rights,

611
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 1: I'm afraid that this is going to be perpetuated time

612
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: and time again, and it's unfortunate for everybody involved. Nancy

613
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: Grace scrib story signing off good Bye, s