Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, It's November thirty two ten. What now it's not,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna bring you back in time. We're all
Speaker 1: getting in the way back machine for this Saturday select everyone,
Speaker 1: and we're going back to November because we published How
Speaker 1: Circumcision Works that day and uh, this is a good one.
Speaker 1: It kind of tied up medical some medical science along
Speaker 1: with um. While the controversies around circumcision, there's really no
Speaker 1: way around that. It's not a it's not an open
Speaker 1: and closed, uh discussion. It's very much open for debate,
Speaker 1: and we get into it in this episode. It is.
Speaker 1: It's a pretty good one. So if you think you
Speaker 1: can handle it, listen to How Circumcision Works right now.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Joshua
Speaker 1: m Clark. With me is Charles W. Bryant. That makes
Speaker 1: this stuff. You should nizzo. Um and uh that's that. Hi, Hey,
Speaker 1: josh m Clark. Joshua Clark. Yes, you don't have a
Speaker 1: fancy setup today, I have an intro. Okay, let's hear it. Okay, Wow, Chuck,
Speaker 1: you really kind of waiting up against the wall, aren't
Speaker 1: you today. Are you waiting on me a little bit? Okay? Um?
Speaker 1: Are you ready? I'm ready, Chuck, Josh, have you ever
Speaker 1: heard of Lloyd Schofield? I have not. Yes, you have?
Speaker 1: You always do this? Who is he? Uh? He is
Speaker 1: a guy out in San Francisco who has proposed for
Speaker 1: next Novembers. Um, I guess referendum elections. It wouldn't even
Speaker 1: be mid term. What do you call the elections between
Speaker 1: mid term and you know, the big ones quarter term?
Speaker 1: I don't know. Okay, we'll call it that. For next
Speaker 1: November's ballot in San Francisco, there may be a referendum
Speaker 1: if Floyd Scofield has anything to do with it. The
Speaker 1: Outright Band's male circumcision in San Francisco. Well, yeah, obviously,
Speaker 1: but you gotta start somewhere, Um, scope Field needs signatures
Speaker 1: and uh, basically read read the read the provision, Chuck,
Speaker 1: the wording of the proposed referendum. Uh. It would make
Speaker 1: it a misdemeanor to circumcise, excise, cut, or mutilate the
Speaker 1: genitals of a person under eighteen. Right, and he he
Speaker 1: says it's genital mutilation. That's how he feels, and other
Speaker 1: people feel that way. Too. Yeah, he's definitely not um
Speaker 1: on his own in that one. There's some people in
Speaker 1: this CBS AP article they're like, it's a little too far.
Speaker 1: It should be the choice of the parents, Scofield's idea,
Speaker 1: And it's kind of it kind of appears in this
Speaker 1: um in the wording of the ballot measure that it's
Speaker 1: a parent's choice, but it's not the choice of most
Speaker 1: people who are circumcised, because they're generally circumcised as newborn infants. Yeah,
Speaker 1: little boys are. And he likened to to tooing because
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to to to a child. When did
Speaker 1: you start saying tattoo like that? What do you mean
Speaker 1: to too? Is that weird? Yeah, it's a little weird.
Speaker 1: It's like humans. Well that's what he says. He said that,
Speaker 1: you know, to felony to to to a kid. So Jerry,
Speaker 1: he's really laughing in there, to tattoo a child, and
Speaker 1: so he says it's the same thing. Well, yeah, he's
Speaker 1: actually saying it's way way worse than tattooing. Um, but
Speaker 1: he he is saying it's along the same lines as
Speaker 1: a choice by the parents that is possibly against the
Speaker 1: child's will. Later on, UM and that's that. So let's
Speaker 1: talk about circumcision, because this is a little that's an
Speaker 1: odd approach to me, you know, like the way I've
Speaker 1: always understood it is you, you know, there's circumcision out there.
Speaker 1: It's not weird, it's not odd. But as you kind
Speaker 1: of get older, you realize that there's, you know, two
Speaker 1: sides to this whole story, and it kind of is
Speaker 1: actually um and you kind of come to realize, like
Speaker 1: there's people out there who think that people who aren't
Speaker 1: you're circumcised or weird, and people out there who think
Speaker 1: that people who are circumcised or weird. Right, exactly, Let's
Speaker 1: do some stats, stat man, Well, I think the first
Speaker 1: stat we should open with, perhaps is that if you
Speaker 1: are an American boy or man in the last thirty years,
Speaker 1: then there's about a three and five chance that you
Speaker 1: are circumcised here in this country over the past three decades,
Speaker 1: although that is falling big time. Yeah, what was the
Speaker 1: three and five chance now? Um in two thousand five,
Speaker 1: between night and I think two thousand it was about
Speaker 1: three and five, right, and then by two thousand five
Speaker 1: it had dropped to about fifty three. Yeah, and the
Speaker 1: Scofield says that in uh, two thousand nine fell to
Speaker 1: thirty three. That's a huge drop, So in a decade
Speaker 1: it fell, and they actually think one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why is because there's been an increasing presence of Hispanics
Speaker 1: in the US, and Hispanics are much much less likely
Speaker 1: than any other group, um to circumcise their male infants.
Speaker 1: And it's also lower out west and uh, where there's
Speaker 1: a larger Hispanic population. Yeah, in the Midwest, there's about
Speaker 1: a chance that you are going to circumcise your boy. Uh.
Speaker 1: In the South, there's half right, it's like um Russian
Speaker 1: roulette with a two barreled two chamber gun. Yeah, sure, uh.
Speaker 1: And then out west, Yeah, it's less than a quarter
Speaker 1: um of of the male infants are circumcised out there
Speaker 1: every year. But ultimately there's about one point two million circumcisions.
Speaker 1: Well there were in two thousand five. Yes, so now
Speaker 1: we're down to less than that. But in two thousand
Speaker 1: five there about one point two million male boys born
Speaker 1: in the United States who were circumcised. Right, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: since you mentioned that, that about two hundred dollars a pop.
Speaker 1: Even though it's included in your in your birth and bill,
Speaker 1: it's about two million dollars that UM insurance companies would
Speaker 1: love to not have to pay exactly. So there's actually
Speaker 1: UM I don't know if it's overt support or maybe
Speaker 1: quiet financial support or whatever, but the insurance companies are
Speaker 1: very happy to side with the anti circumcision movement and medicaid. Yes,
Speaker 1: of course, So Chuck, let's talk about the penis. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about the foreskin. That's part of it. We're gonna
Speaker 1: say the word penis a whole lot because you can't
Speaker 1: avoid it when you're talking about circumcision. That's right, Because
Speaker 1: let's just go ahead and set up for our foreign
Speaker 1: friends who may not know what circumcision is, like Roller Derby. Uh,
Speaker 1: circumcision is when the foreskin of the penis, it's also
Speaker 1: called the prep use prepuse is removed, simple as that.
Speaker 1: So you've got the prep use, which is the foreskin. Yes,
Speaker 1: it covers the tip of the penis, which is also
Speaker 1: called the glands g L A N s uh. And
Speaker 1: then there's a piece of connective tissue that works much
Speaker 1: like the connective tissue that anchors the bottom of your
Speaker 1: tongue to the floor of your mouth, called a frenulum.
Speaker 1: And that, yes, the prep use connected to the glands. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And they also said the inner portion of the foreskin
Speaker 1: is also much like the inside of your mouth, and
Speaker 1: that it has a natural moisture to lubricate the glands.
Speaker 1: It's hot and moist in there, that's what it says. Yes, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it provides luber cation which kind of keeps it safe
Speaker 1: and sheathed. I guess right, yeah, from abrasion. And like
Speaker 1: they've mentioned, cold and wind dry, the dry winter air
Speaker 1: can be rough on a glands. Yeah. And they this
Speaker 1: was the Tom Sheef article, and my hat is off
Speaker 1: to him for this one. Yes, Tom did a great
Speaker 1: job with us. I liked your first response, um, chuck.
Speaker 1: It also contains the prep use, also contains um, some
Speaker 1: nerve cells, bundles blood, special blood cells. Just it makes
Speaker 1: the the penis that much more sensitive. And the fact
Speaker 1: that it's uh, it produces movement aids in stimulation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and lubrication. So there's a lot of people who are
Speaker 1: happy with their prep use or foreskin and are very
Speaker 1: glad that they are um uncut, as the anti circumcision
Speaker 1: groups would call it right, right or natural is another
Speaker 1: one that's right. And since we're talking about the four skin.
Speaker 1: It's not the same on all dudes. It's uh like
Speaker 1: every human body part. It varies from person to person. Uh.
Speaker 1: And some men actually are sort of naturally circumcised because
Speaker 1: they're either born with very little foreskin, or they have
Speaker 1: foreskins that actually retract during puberty they go or maybe
Speaker 1: sad trombone and uh, they do serve a protective purpose,
Speaker 1: but they can also And for people that are on
Speaker 1: both sides, we're gonna present both sides of the argument.
Speaker 1: So don't say you guys are just talking about this
Speaker 1: one side. We're gonna talk about both sides, sure of course.
Speaker 1: But some one camp believes that, uh, it can cause
Speaker 1: some problems. Well it can. I think everybody agrees on
Speaker 1: these like these are the very rare problems that can
Speaker 1: come about it, and having force, we should say that
Speaker 1: it's rare, though, because one of the big problems that
Speaker 1: the anti circumcision folks have is that these are overstated.
Speaker 1: Like when you say it can it's easier to get
Speaker 1: dirty and bacteria can build up and all these things
Speaker 1: can happen. That is true, but it's not like if
Speaker 1: you skip a shower, this is gonna happen. Well, let's
Speaker 1: talk about this because there there are some some problems
Speaker 1: that can arise just from having an or normal foreskin.
Speaker 1: One of those problems because it is like the inside
Speaker 1: of your mouth and they're warm, moist. You gotta keep
Speaker 1: it clean. You do have to keep it clean. And
Speaker 1: if you don't, a um, white build up, a white,
Speaker 1: soapy build up, soapy, soupy. This say is cheesy in
Speaker 1: the article cheesy. That's right, A white, cheesy build up
Speaker 1: called smeg mum can develop. Um. And once you start
Speaker 1: developing a white, cheesy build up called smegma within your foreskin, um,
Speaker 1: you want to take a really hard, long look at
Speaker 1: your grooming habits. Yeah, did you say smegmum? Smegma? Okay,
Speaker 1: smegmums maybe the plural. No, I want to make sure
Speaker 1: you were saying it right, s magma, because the last
Speaker 1: thing I want is listener mail on the pronunciation of smegma.
Speaker 1: We get all these voice files. Although I've awaysa smegma,
Speaker 1: but I think it's magma. Yeah, maybe I've just said
Speaker 1: smegma for humor sake. Maybe all right, that was around
Speaker 1: the time wains World was out, wasn't it. Probably um,
Speaker 1: that's just one but that's probably a pretty minor thing.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's easily corrected. Your force game, though, can
Speaker 1: also be um well. It can develop to two ways,
Speaker 1: too tight or too loose, right and each other problems.
Speaker 1: Too tight, it can cause a condition known as pimosis.
Speaker 1: It's like trying to put on a sweater that's way
Speaker 1: too small for you. It's a good way to look
Speaker 1: at it, and that is a medical that's the main
Speaker 1: medical determinant for whether or not you should get a circumcision.
Speaker 1: Like the main medical reason would be phi mosis. I
Speaker 1: think that's probably because it's the most frequent. It's probably
Speaker 1: the most frequent problem. You think, I think, Okay, if
Speaker 1: it's too loose, then it's going to be called paraphymosis.
Speaker 1: And that's like wearing your dad's sweater. Yes, And it
Speaker 1: can cause swelling of the glands and the forced in
Speaker 1: And there's also something called balance post thesis, which is
Speaker 1: swelling of the mucous surfaces of the four skin and
Speaker 1: that can lead to skin disease, UH, problems with the urethra, pain,
Speaker 1: all sorts of things that you don't want to have
Speaker 1: in general, like why God, why, I would imagine so
Speaker 1: you can have your frenulum attached too tightly. That's the
Speaker 1: frenulum brevi where it's just like that's like trying to
Speaker 1: poke your head through that very very tight sweater. That's
Speaker 1: a good way to look at it as well. Thank you, Chuck,
Speaker 1: very evocative, Josh. And um circumcision can help correct all
Speaker 1: of these problems, but it is rarely a medically necessary
Speaker 1: to get circumcanced. Right. And like we said, um, these
Speaker 1: problems do exist. They are serious problems. It's at the
Speaker 1: very least uncomfortable, if not, you know, downright dangerous. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think both sides agree that there are circumstances
Speaker 1: such as these that do UM warrant circumcision. The problem
Speaker 1: is most circumcision. I'm sure the vast majority of circumcisions
Speaker 1: are um customary, cultural preventative, right, yeah, sociological in nature.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the origins of circumcision. When did humans
Speaker 1: get the idea to cut the foreskin off of boys penises? Well?
Speaker 1: Did it start with the Bible? This is where tom started.
Speaker 1: But no, it didn't start with the As far back
Speaker 1: as we can find, the Egyptians were doing Okay, that's
Speaker 1: what we understand. Okay, you want to talk about that, Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the Bible first, because in the Book
Speaker 1: of Genesis God made a covenant with Abraham, and as
Speaker 1: we all know, Abraham was a Jewish patriarch and his descendants,
Speaker 1: Abraham was the patriarch of the houses of the Jews
Speaker 1: and the Muslims. Dude, really, yes, Isaac, his son went
Speaker 1: on to found the Jews. Well, went on to found
Speaker 1: Judaism with the father Judaism Ishmael. What the other one
Speaker 1: was a legitimate son, right, but he went on to
Speaker 1: found um Islam. Yes, and Isaac, they said, basically, God's
Speaker 1: gonna bless um Jews with riches and success all the
Speaker 1: you know, the land will be fruitful if you get
Speaker 1: circumcised by your eighth day of life. And not just you,
Speaker 1: but your sons, any servants that you capture, any sir,
Speaker 1: any sons that those captured servants has All boys have
Speaker 1: to be circumcised. And this has led to the fact
Speaker 1: that today of Jewish men are in fact circumcised and
Speaker 1: um According to biblical tradition, uh Ishmael was circumcised before
Speaker 1: he was basically run off from Abraham's family and um
Speaker 1: so that kind of formed the basis of the Muslim
Speaker 1: tradition of circumcision, which continues today. If you look at
Speaker 1: um Muslim texts, the Kuran, apparently it doesn't have any
Speaker 1: endorsement or mentioned of secumcision. But most Muslims today still
Speaker 1: do circumcise because Muhammad apparently was circumcised. So there, I
Speaker 1: guess it's a reverence for their profit. Yes, And today
Speaker 1: about two thirds of every circumcised men on the planet
Speaker 1: or Muslim of Jewish men, and two thirds of Muslim
Speaker 1: and circumcised of all men on the planet are Muslim exactly.
Speaker 1: That's a tough one. It's kind of an odd qualifier.
Speaker 1: Christian sex don't really endorse one way or the other.
Speaker 1: They say, like, you know, decide amongst yourselves and Buddhism
Speaker 1: and Hinduism. They don't really have a stance one way
Speaker 1: or the other. Is that right? That's right? And we
Speaker 1: talked about the Egyptians probably being the earliest group as
Speaker 1: far as Western culture is concerned. Um like with most things, Uh,
Speaker 1: the Egyptians came up with this idea, not necessarily independently,
Speaker 1: or if it did independently, they weren't the only ones,
Speaker 1: but they apparently were the ones who exposed, um, the
Speaker 1: early Israelites, early Jews to write this concept, right yeah,
Speaker 1: and then uh, at about the same time, possibly even
Speaker 1: before other groups the Mayans and the Aztecs. Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: both um circumcising their boys. Um, indigenous Australians, African Asian
Speaker 1: and other American tribes, right yeah. And Georgians. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: is that that I've never heard of them? The coal Colchians. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of him either, but described them. So
Speaker 1: they were ancient people that is now modern day Georgia
Speaker 1: and they were into it. Yeah, well they practiced it.
Speaker 1: And then so here in the West, Um, I guess
Speaker 1: there was strictly religious until about the nineteenth century, right,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, medicine is like we
Speaker 1: we can do that. Well yeah, but that's also around
Speaker 1: the same time that they were doing all sorts of
Speaker 1: things saying that this could solve this this like we
Speaker 1: can treat v D and we can cure homosexuality with circumcision,
Speaker 1: and uh, impotence was another one. So they were a
Speaker 1: little bit off base, I would say, they're as in
Speaker 1: way off base, I would think, so, yeah, but it
Speaker 1: did it did have a lasting impression circumcision did become
Speaker 1: associated with the medical establishment here in the West, and
Speaker 1: that I think that's translated elsewhere in the Jewish faith.
Speaker 1: A um mohel mohole mole mole, yeah, mole okay, Um,
Speaker 1: they still perform briss us briss i brisom I just
Speaker 1: the only thing I know about that is from Seinfeld
Speaker 1: when Jerry was supposed to perform the snap. Um. They
Speaker 1: they may still perform these procedures, Uh, in the Arab world,
Speaker 1: in the Muslim world, Um, that's it's generally done in
Speaker 1: the medical realm um. And then that's actually that was
Speaker 1: taken away from barber's in ancient Turkey and yeah, in
Speaker 1: Turkey and the Middle East of the Middle Ages, barbers
Speaker 1: used to do amputations, blood lettings and circumcisions. Blood lettings
Speaker 1: like give you a nice bleating and you'll be feeling better,
Speaker 1: get all the toxins out of your blood. Uh. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about it around the globe, like how how it
Speaker 1: actually goes down like today? Yeah, Like the Jews still
Speaker 1: still do it traditionally before the Eighth Day, they kind
Speaker 1: of stick to that. And Egypt it' um anywhere from
Speaker 1: birth to about eight years old and in Malaysia. It's
Speaker 1: in other places it's like a rite of passage, like
Speaker 1: at early adolescence. Yeah, some um and some Muslim cultures.
Speaker 1: Once a boy can recite the Koran um once like
Speaker 1: all the way through right right, which I mean think
Speaker 1: about that and think about if you don't want to
Speaker 1: get circumcised. Like remember one, once a boy can do
Speaker 1: that um there that's associated with the time when he'll
Speaker 1: be circumcised after that. And you didn't see there's some
Speaker 1: really sad cute pictures in this article. Now. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a little boy who's clutching his genitalia under his hospital
Speaker 1: gown and crying because he's like second in line to
Speaker 1: be circumcised. There's a kid who's being circumcised on page zero.
Speaker 1: It's sad stuff. I'm glad I don't print the pictures out.
Speaker 1: I don't want to see that. In Africa, Josh, it
Speaker 1: is also in a lot of tribes, coming of age
Speaker 1: type of thing. And here's the deal in Africa, though
Speaker 1: sometimes there's not in these remote areas a trained professional
Speaker 1: with all the right equipment, and they do it anyway.
Speaker 1: And because of this, there's like a thirty five percent
Speaker 1: increased risk of complications six percent, like severe complications that
Speaker 1: possibly um result in partial or full amputation of the penis. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: but sometimes a traveling uh circumcis or will roll through
Speaker 1: town and his ice cream truck, and everybody comes out
Speaker 1: and UH with boys of all ages because they know
Speaker 1: the safe, real doctor with the real clean equipment is there,
Speaker 1: and so they'll bring up boys of all ages to
Speaker 1: get circumcised when he rolls through. Yes, which is a
Speaker 1: good thing that happens. Asia, it's extremely rare unless they
Speaker 1: have um thriving Muslim populations. But in Asia, among Asian cultures,
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty uncommon, except chuck. In South Korea and
Speaker 1: the Philippines, circumcision is pretty common. Who knew the American
Speaker 1: serviceman knew? Yeah? Is that the reason why Korea, Yes,
Speaker 1: and the Philippines. American servicemen stationed there in the ladder
Speaker 1: half Beginning in the ladder half of the twentieth century.
Speaker 1: UM apparently got the word leaked out that they were
Speaker 1: missing their pre pious and UM. South Koreans and Filipinos
Speaker 1: started following suit already. Well, that's circumcision around the globe today.
Speaker 1: If we forgot your country then we apologize. Please write
Speaker 1: in Shall we talk about the procedure itself? Yeah, as
Speaker 1: Tom put it next up, the big show. Is that
Speaker 1: what he said? I didn't see that part. There's some
Speaker 1: did you? So you didn't see the pictures, the illustrations
Speaker 1: like step by step illustration. I didn't need it, dotted
Speaker 1: lines like where you clip out a coupon, have a
Speaker 1: pretty get what's going on down there? So I didn't.
Speaker 1: I was just fine with the words. Uh so what
Speaker 1: happens Josh is ah a baby? If it's a baby
Speaker 1: in infant circumcision, then they strapped the baby down of
Speaker 1: course arms and legs, which it just seems like an
Speaker 1: awful thing to bed start when you read it. Um,
Speaker 1: they give a either a topical anesthetic, uh you know,
Speaker 1: rubbed around the area or injected around the base of
Speaker 1: the penis to numb the area. Um. There are a
Speaker 1: few different devices that the person performing the procedure can
Speaker 1: choose from, and I know you know a little bit
Speaker 1: about these. I do. Let's hear it. There's like three things. Well,
Speaker 1: there's the Gomko clamp, the Mogan clamp, and the Plasta
Speaker 1: bell device. Right, so I did. I didn't really look
Speaker 1: into the Mogan clamp um because it just too wow.
Speaker 1: But the Gomco clamp um has been around for a
Speaker 1: while and it sounds like something you could see on
Speaker 1: a late night TV head. You can actually buy them
Speaker 1: on the internet for bucks. Yeah, search Gomco clamp it
Speaker 1: comes up and do not do not buy one and
Speaker 1: do this at home. That is in no way in endorsement,
Speaker 1: and it just stop stop right now. Um there. The
Speaker 1: Gomko clamp involves a bell with a an arm, an
Speaker 1: appendage that comes off the tip of the bell. Put
Speaker 1: that in, pull the um foreskin up around the bell.
Speaker 1: So what you're doing is you're inserting this metal layer
Speaker 1: between the glands and the foreskin. Like all these things,
Speaker 1: you're separating the foreskin from the gland exactly. That's pretty
Speaker 1: much the key to circumcision um. You pull it up around,
Speaker 1: you slide it through this hole, has an arm attached
Speaker 1: to the top of the bell holding everything taut, and
Speaker 1: then you cut around it and remove the four skin.
Speaker 1: The plastic bell um devices it's similar. It doesn't have
Speaker 1: the arm and the clamp holding everything, but basically you're
Speaker 1: just you're putting a bell in between the glands and
Speaker 1: the four skin and um. Then you you basically tie
Speaker 1: off the suture around the the four skin that's been
Speaker 1: pulled up, and then you cut that and then eventually,
Speaker 1: after like a few days, the bell falls off and
Speaker 1: you're fine, supposedly well, And that's about the recovery period.
Speaker 1: Uh period if you're an infant is about three to
Speaker 1: four days. Plan on having a grumpy little baby boy
Speaker 1: for those next few days, and plan on keeping the
Speaker 1: area really really clean and maybe you might even have
Speaker 1: to bandage it, and just you got to make sure
Speaker 1: that you keep it uh separate from diaper poopoo, because
Speaker 1: you don't want a fresh surgery being around fecal matter.
Speaker 1: Not not a good thing. No, it's you're you're looking
Speaker 1: at a pretty hefty, little horrible infection there. And it
Speaker 1: takes about thirty minutes. Yeah, if you're an adult, you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to use any of these other bells
Speaker 1: or whistles literally bells, um. But you can just pull
Speaker 1: the for skin forward, make a couple of incisions, UM,
Speaker 1: cut off the frenulum, stitch back. Basically, you're stitching this
Speaker 1: hanging loose skin to the just to the corona, which
Speaker 1: is the strip just below the gland um and ba
Speaker 1: boom bada being no sex for a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: which no one should have to tell you that, but
Speaker 1: we're telling you that. Yeah, that would be common sense
Speaker 1: if you asked me, then it's done. So why are
Speaker 1: people doing this, Chuck, I mean, think about that, especially
Speaker 1: as an adult. Why why are people circumcising uh, both
Speaker 1: there themselves and their infant sons? Why is it like
Speaker 1: all the rage? So this is the argument four, and
Speaker 1: we will cover the argument against before you get upset
Speaker 1: by Mr Scofield. The reasons, some of the reasons, Josh
Speaker 1: are obviously, like we said, you're raised in a religion
Speaker 1: or culture where that's the thing you do, then you
Speaker 1: would probably do that. Um. Some fathers think that their
Speaker 1: son's penis should kind of be like theirs, and they're
Speaker 1: a little bit fact. Um. Nine tenths of circumcised men
Speaker 1: opt to have their sons circumcised, and about three quarters
Speaker 1: of uncircumcised men opt to have their sons not circumcised.
Speaker 1: Yeah about natural. Interesting, Uh, some parents want their sons
Speaker 1: to just be like the rest of the little boys.
Speaker 1: If and then if you live in the United States
Speaker 1: and most boys are like that, They don't want you
Speaker 1: to stand out in the locker room and potentially be
Speaker 1: teased that kind of thing. Um, this one uncircumcised men
Speaker 1: or twice as likely to contract HPV and pass that along.
Speaker 1: It's what it's what of here? And apparently circumcision also
Speaker 1: helps prevent or protect against Chlamydian syphilis, they say, and
Speaker 1: this is from the Journal of American Medical Association. We
Speaker 1: should say, we should the same. Same goes with a
Speaker 1: study that found recently that UM areas that don't circumcise,
Speaker 1: or where circumcision is uncommon um tend to have higher
Speaker 1: prevalences of HIV. I don't know if those two are causal,
Speaker 1: like HIV is more easily contracted because there's this maybe
Speaker 1: the blood vessels are closer to the surface when the
Speaker 1: foreskin is attached, yeah, um, or if it's just correlated,
Speaker 1: like maybe they have maybe these areas have lesser healthcare
Speaker 1: right right or less adequate healthcare well at any rate,
Speaker 1: they put that number at six less likely. But it's
Speaker 1: only it's not for male to male sex. It's only
Speaker 1: female to male train mission of HIV is what it says. Go.
Speaker 1: I know, uh, some people think it's cleaner but that's
Speaker 1: completely unsupported from what I can tell medically. Right, that's
Speaker 1: that's just a perception, if I'm not mistaken. And then
Speaker 1: there are some who just think it's prettier, yeah, better looking,
Speaker 1: sleeker fish. All right, Josh, that's the case for generally.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about people who are against this, like Mr Scofield.
Speaker 1: What are their arguments. Well, I get the impression that
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who well, the people who
Speaker 1: are against it are vehemently against it. One of the
Speaker 1: biggest arguments is that it's um mutilation. Yeah, general mutilation.
Speaker 1: It is genital mutilation. Female um circumcision, which we'll talk
Speaker 1: a little bit more about in a minute, is basically
Speaker 1: considered now in the Western world, the developed world, female
Speaker 1: genital mutilation, not female circumcision any longer. And the one
Speaker 1: of the big points among anti circumcision people is that
Speaker 1: this is the same thing with men. It's just for
Speaker 1: some reason more accepted in the West than female circumcision is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but if you're against it, you probably think it's old
Speaker 1: fashioned and unnecessary. Unnecessary is a big one. The American
Speaker 1: Academy of Pediatrics considered this in and said, you know,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna endorse this. We're not gonna come out
Speaker 1: against it. But we've looked at all of the information.
Speaker 1: We see no medical reason to do this, and we're
Speaker 1: not gonna endorse it. So that's that's a big one
Speaker 1: that the the anti circumcision lobby sites. Yeah. When I
Speaker 1: was when I read that that they didn't endorse it,
Speaker 1: or they said that you shouldn't do it. This is
Speaker 1: such a tender subject. That kind of got the impression
Speaker 1: they were a little bit like, I ain't going there.
Speaker 1: Why don't you just decide. We don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of data either way, so we're not gonna say it's
Speaker 1: I get the impression that it's a lot like the
Speaker 1: natural birth movement. There's a lot of probably similar sentiment,
Speaker 1: maybe a lot of crossover actually between the two. Josh,
Speaker 1: there are risks of scarring, their risks of infection. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a big one right here. It can go wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it does like you can have your penis lopped
Speaker 1: off because of a bad circumcision. Yeah, that's a pretty
Speaker 1: good reason not to do it. I don't have it
Speaker 1: super common, but it's very uncommon. But when you're talking
Speaker 1: about your your maybe your only male son. It can
Speaker 1: only be a male son, but your only son. Do
Speaker 1: you want to take that kind of risk? I don't
Speaker 1: know yet. Well, yeah, sure, I don't know. Stop pressuring me. No,
Speaker 1: I'm not pressuring you. I was just I'm not asking you.
Speaker 1: I'm just asking theoretically. But I think that's probably the
Speaker 1: sentiment among a lot of like first time parents, you know,
Speaker 1: like should we do this? I haven't really thought about
Speaker 1: it before, and like hold account. Now we have to
Speaker 1: decide or do we um. Another another argument against is
Speaker 1: that you take away the child's right to choose. Um.
Speaker 1: There are there is a procedure called an epipasm which um,
Speaker 1: there's actually a surgical procedure which is kind of a
Speaker 1: skin graft. Um. Yeah, is not always desirable. Sometimes you
Speaker 1: get a different color, different texture because this is someone
Speaker 1: else's foreskin or else it's skin from elsewhere on your body.
Speaker 1: That's I would say. And then there's also like a
Speaker 1: non there's non surgical things you can do to right
Speaker 1: chuck to to to create a new foreskin, to recreate it. Yes, Josh,
Speaker 1: there are non surgical ways. And I have never heard
Speaker 1: of this at all. I hadn't either until I read
Speaker 1: this article. Um over time, and we're not recommending that
Speaker 1: you try this at home, by the way, this is
Speaker 1: this is something you really need to know a lot
Speaker 1: about um over time. Though. You can apparently stretch your
Speaker 1: foreskin using weights and straps and it will eventually stretch
Speaker 1: to where it could cover your glands. That's what they say.
Speaker 1: There's another method that has UH involves inflating little balloons
Speaker 1: under your skin, under your penile skin prompt new skin
Speaker 1: cell growth. I guess, to fill in the void, I guess,
Speaker 1: and then when you deflate the balloons, you've got all
Speaker 1: that extra skin right, and you go to So that's
Speaker 1: an epipasum. So yeah, the point is um one of
Speaker 1: the arguments against circumcisions that you take away a kid's
Speaker 1: right to choose, and if the kid turns like fifty
Speaker 1: and goes I really want to for skin, basically he
Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of options available to him balloons
Speaker 1: and weights and straps and skin graphs and skin graphs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's that's another reason. What are some more reasons, Chuckers, Well,
Speaker 1: like we said, in the foreskin, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: sensitive areas for sexual stimulation, and that once you lose
Speaker 1: that it's gone. Yeah, so theoretically you're cutting down on
Speaker 1: the man's pleasure centers. So I'm white sure, and he
Speaker 1: wants to do that to your kid, puritan, I don't know. Uh,
Speaker 1: they say, you know, like psychologists might say that, Um,
Speaker 1: a child might remember this somehow, resulting in lingering psychological repercussions.
Speaker 1: Its very Freudian sentence. Uh. Some people think it's better
Speaker 1: looking to have the foreskin in prettier that way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would like to conduct a poll. I don't know
Speaker 1: how we could do this conceivably, but I would like to,
Speaker 1: I know, not and not and not get in trouble right, Um,
Speaker 1: but I am curious, like where, like which one is
Speaker 1: considered more attractive? I have no idea. Um, so I'm
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very curious, you know, like is it like
Speaker 1: do people think people who like a foreskin? I think
Speaker 1: those people are weird or vice versa. Or I'm very curious.
Speaker 1: This is all just I'm curious this. You've been even
Speaker 1: fascinated by this whole thing, Huh? I have from paid zero. Uh.
Speaker 1: And there are a couple more reasons some men subconsciously
Speaker 1: might not feel complete. And then the big reason you're
Speaker 1: born with it, so that might mean that you should
Speaker 1: keep it on your body. Yeah, Like, if we didn't
Speaker 1: need it, why would we have it? And it have
Speaker 1: whether you whether you believe in creationism or evolution, there's that.
Speaker 1: Both of those kind of touch upon that. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: wouldn't have it if we didn't need it, it didn't
Speaker 1: serve some purpose. Did you already cover the language part?
Speaker 1: I think you'd mentioned that right a little bit. If
Speaker 1: you are talking to somebody who is in the anti
Speaker 1: circumcision camp, you don't want to use the term uncircumcised
Speaker 1: because it implies that there is something wrong, that there's
Speaker 1: something missing, They something hasn't been done yet. That's not
Speaker 1: the norm, right, and so they people in the anti
Speaker 1: circumcision camp tend to prefer um terms like natural, uncut,
Speaker 1: full length, intact, intact. Yeah, yeah, we would be remiss, Josh,
Speaker 1: you did mention female genital mutilation. This is a big
Speaker 1: problem around the world. Between a hundred and a hundred
Speaker 1: and forty million women have been victims of this um
Speaker 1: A lot of times there are I'm sorry all the time.
Speaker 1: There's no medical reason for doing this, Like they will
Speaker 1: remove the clitterest sometimes. Yeah, this actually, um was kind
Speaker 1: of It came about in the West too. It's still
Speaker 1: a huge problem in Africa apparently, UM. Two million girls
Speaker 1: under the age of ten have undergone female genital mutilation. UM.
Speaker 1: And that's just Africa alone. Um. But in the West
Speaker 1: it was popular. I had no idea. But here in
Speaker 1: the West, in the United States, until ninety seven, Blue
Speaker 1: Cross covered its female They covered clitter ectomy, clitter clitter clittery, cliterodectomy,
Speaker 1: that's awful. Cliterodectomy, which is the partial total removal of
Speaker 1: the clitteress right UM. And this, this fad of circumcision
Speaker 1: came about at about the same time in the nineteenth
Speaker 1: century and for the same reasons as male circumcision, which
Speaker 1: is yet another argument against male circumcision because we've come
Speaker 1: to see female circumcision as barbaric, even though they were
Speaker 1: both brought up for the same reasons, which was it's cleaner,
Speaker 1: it's more hygienic, it's it's healthier. And also with girls,
Speaker 1: they had the added bonus of it reduces reduces their
Speaker 1: sexual pleasure from masturbation. Therefore it will it's much more
Speaker 1: morally hygienic as well. This is one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why it's become or come to be seen as barbaric
Speaker 1: because it actually does reduce tremendously the sensitivity a woman
Speaker 1: can experience in sex. Right, there's a lot of other
Speaker 1: problems with it too. Um. There's a little procedure called
Speaker 1: in fabulation that basically is you cut the inner outer
Speaker 1: lay you so that it grows back to narrow or
Speaker 1: close the vagina. And what's the idea here are they
Speaker 1: Is it a moral thing where they're trying to prevent
Speaker 1: their daughters from being tempted to have sex or having sex. Yes,
Speaker 1: because to to get this reversed, you to have children,
Speaker 1: to have sex, to conceive, to do all these things,
Speaker 1: you basically have to have the procedure reversed. And then
Speaker 1: in some cultures that promote this um after childbirth, after
Speaker 1: the reproductive years, it's closed up again. So not only
Speaker 1: are you undergoing it this first time, you're having a
Speaker 1: reverse and then you're having it done again. So it
Speaker 1: is a huge problem and it is viewed as barbaric
Speaker 1: in the West, um, and the World Health Organization has
Speaker 1: come out starting against this, and then I guess over
Speaker 1: the ensuing decades really lobbied the rest of the u
Speaker 1: N and and got much wider support. In February two
Speaker 1: thousand eight, pretty much the entire un issued the statement
Speaker 1: saying like this has to stop. This is really bad.
Speaker 1: But it's still continues. It happens in the US, it
Speaker 1: happens in um Great Britain, and a lot of the
Speaker 1: minority African populations that immigrate here immigrate here. It's it's
Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, well, thank god for the w h
Speaker 1: O in. Groups like UNICEF and other human rights groups
Speaker 1: are trying to get the word out on that too. Right,
Speaker 1: But Chuck, we just arrived at a really kind of
Speaker 1: a hinky place. Like everybody agrees this is barbaric. One
Speaker 1: of the reasons why is because it serves absolutely no
Speaker 1: medical reason whatsoever. No, there's no medical purpose to it.
Speaker 1: It's all just basically chastity. Um, so we all agree
Speaker 1: that that's barbaric. If there's really no medical reason for
Speaker 1: male circumcision, isn't the same thing? Is it barbaric? Well?
Speaker 1: People against it sure say it is, people like Schofield.
Speaker 1: And I'm not here to make a judgment either way
Speaker 1: because I don't have a son at this point. But
Speaker 1: maybe that day will come when I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: make that decision. Hopefully we put out at least some
Speaker 1: facts and figures on both sides, some stats. Yeah, it's tricky. Well,
Speaker 1: if you want to know more about circumcision and you
Speaker 1: want to see probably more illustrations of the male reproductive
Speaker 1: organ uh than any other article on the site, including
Speaker 1: cut here dots cut along the dotted line dots, you
Speaker 1: can you can type circumcision into the search bar at
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com and that will bring all
Speaker 1: that stuff up. It's an interesting article, right, yes, sir, uh,
Speaker 1: since I said handy search bar while I said search
Speaker 1: bar at least right, Yeah, it's time for a listener mail. Yes, Josh,
Speaker 1: I thought this might be appropriate. You asked for stories
Speaker 1: about people who had their fingers cut off, and what
Speaker 1: podcast was at one of them? Yeah, one of the
Speaker 1: podcasts one one of the things we did. And so
Speaker 1: we got a bunch of stories of people who have
Speaker 1: lost fingers, and I picked out three fairly short ones
Speaker 1: to read. The one comes from Melanie fro Minnesota. She
Speaker 1: did not lose a finger, but her husband's uncle did.
Speaker 1: He was doing some woodworking in his garage, solid his thumb,
Speaker 1: index finger and part of his middle finger clean off.
Speaker 1: His wife rushed him to the hospital. They're able to
Speaker 1: reattach the thumb, but not his index finger. They were
Speaker 1: never able to find the rest of his ring finger,
Speaker 1: and they suspect that the dog ate it. Now he
Speaker 1: now has a prosthetic index finger, which he likes to
Speaker 1: remove and toss to people just to freak them out.
Speaker 1: He was a musician before the accident. He's still able
Speaker 1: to play the piano with his faux finger, which is
Speaker 1: pretty cool. And he has a winter and summer version.
Speaker 1: One his tan and one isn't no way way uh.
Speaker 1: This next one is from Abbey from Hampden, Connecticut. Guys
Speaker 1: who thought you might find this interesting? I am in
Speaker 1: fact missing two fingers, but I still have five fingers
Speaker 1: on each hand. Awesome, awesome. This one. The same is
Speaker 1: true for my mother and her grandmother. We all have
Speaker 1: a slight genetic disorder called polydactylism, which is when you
Speaker 1: were born with extra pinkies. The extra fingers were all
Speaker 1: cut off at birth because the bones in them were
Speaker 1: not fully formed. So now we all have little bumps
Speaker 1: on the sides of our hands that were once pinkies
Speaker 1: that circumcision of fingers. It is. I kind of wish
Speaker 1: I had kept the little extra fingers and that they
Speaker 1: were fully functional, because I would use them to play
Speaker 1: impossible pieces of music. I told my bio teacher about
Speaker 1: Polly dactyalism in high school. She got very excited and
Speaker 1: give me extra credit. She gave her extra credit for
Speaker 1: missing those fingers. It's pretty cool. Or she gave her
Speaker 1: extra credit for being born with two extra fingers, or
Speaker 1: being brave enough to admit it in the classroom setting.
Speaker 1: All right, And this last one is from James from Ohio, Guys.
Speaker 1: I have a missing finger story you might find disturbing.
Speaker 1: We're fascinating. In high school, my shop class teacher always
Speaker 1: had these crazy stories about his work in the industry field.
Speaker 1: In the industry field, and that's pretty wide field, it is.
Speaker 1: And one day he had a story to tell us
Speaker 1: about a man who was unfortunate enough to lose some fingers. Uh.
Speaker 1: The story starts when my shop teacher worked at a
Speaker 1: metal sheet shaping factory. I bet you there's a lot
Speaker 1: of fingers in one of those places. Um, they make
Speaker 1: impossible curves on metal that couldn't normally exist. Fellow worker
Speaker 1: decided to pull an all nighter an attempt to work
Speaker 1: machinery with coherency. Unfortunately, the fingers of the worker were
Speaker 1: caught in the metal working machine, pinched clean off, not
Speaker 1: cut pinched off. My teacher explained that it took about
Speaker 1: a half an hour to find all the missing fingers,
Speaker 1: keep them cool and a fridge until they were able
Speaker 1: to reattach them. It's like the Machinist, uh Christian Man.
Speaker 1: That movie was messed up. Yes, it was. So we
Speaker 1: got a lot more stories and a lot were very
Speaker 1: detailed and more gruesome. So we went with these because
Speaker 1: it was short and a little lighter in nature. That's
Speaker 1: very good. That's all I got. If you have an
Speaker 1: email that has absolutely nothing to do with that, we
Speaker 1: want to hear about it. You should wrap it up,
Speaker 1: send it to us, spank it on the bottom, and
Speaker 1: send it to stuff podcast at how stuff works dot
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com. To learn more
Speaker 1: about the podcast, click on the podcast icon in the
Speaker 1: upper right corner of our homepage.