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Speaker 1: Hey, Jorge, do you have your anti matter snack yet?

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Speaker 8: I had a banana as usual. It's anti slip. Does

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Speaker 8: that count?

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Speaker 1: No? But you do know that bananas give off anti

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Speaker 1: matter radiation, don't you.

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Speaker 8: Wait, what that's bananas? Isn't that dangerous?

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Speaker 1: It's so little that it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 8: Is that why you're so matter of fact about it?

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Speaker 1: That's why it annihilated my taste for bananas.

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Speaker 8: Well, the important thing is that it annihilates your hunger.

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Speaker 8: That's the whole point of eating.

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Speaker 1: Food, is the anti matter of hunger.

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Speaker 9: Hi.

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Speaker 8: I'm Jorge mc cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, And it really has been years since

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Speaker 1: I had a banana.

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Speaker 8: Years. Oh my gosh, I feel sorry for you. Why

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Speaker 8: are you depriving yourself with one of life's simplest pleasures.

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Speaker 1: Although I recently convinced my daughter to start eating bananas,

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Speaker 1: so now we have bananas around the house.

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Speaker 8: Oh my goodness. Wait, why are you recommending it to

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Speaker 8: your daughter but not having any yourself.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a very personal question, person to person.

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Speaker 8: I mean you brought it up. I'm just asking a

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Speaker 8: follow up question.

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Speaker 1: I just mean that it's subjective. You know, one person

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Speaker 1: can love bananas, another person can hate them.

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Speaker 8: The slippery slope.

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Speaker 1: Some people find them appealing.

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Speaker 8: Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 8: a production of our Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: In which we try to explain our subjective, our personal

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Speaker 1: experience of the universe the way that it seems to us.

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Speaker 1: All this data that we gather with our eyeballs, biological

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Speaker 1: and technological, the things that we see out there in

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Speaker 1: the universe, we want to understand all of them. We

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Speaker 1: want the whole universe to be a story that makes

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Speaker 1: sense to the human brain. This is part, of course,

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Speaker 1: the long journey of science and trying to wrap up

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Speaker 1: the mysteries of the cosmos into something we understand, and

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Speaker 1: our goal on this podcast is to take you on

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Speaker 1: that journey and explain all of it to you.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, because it is a very mysterious universe, full of

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Speaker 8: amazing things that are happening in it, and a lot

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Speaker 8: of things that we don't understand, even things that we

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Speaker 8: take for granted on an everyday basis.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are so many basic questions about the universe

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Speaker 1: that we do not have answers to, which means that

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Speaker 1: for you young folks listening, you future scientists, there are

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Speaker 1: plenty of discoveries left to be made, Lots and lots

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Speaker 1: of open questions for you to explore.

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Speaker 8: These are big questions about the universe, about our very existence,

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Speaker 8: of why we're here and how it is that we

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Speaker 8: are here because there is a lot of the things

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Speaker 8: in the universe that matter, and also a lot of

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Speaker 8: things that antimatter.

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Speaker 1: Like bananas. I wasn't joking that bananas produce antimatter. That's

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Speaker 1: a real thing.

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Speaker 8: Oh yeah, But isn't antimatter dangerous? Like if you touch antimatter,

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Speaker 8: you explode antimatter.

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Speaker 1: When it hits real matter, it will annihilate into photons.

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Speaker 1: But bananas contain potassium, which is unstable. It undergoes radioactive decay,

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Speaker 1: emitting positrons, which are anti electrons, and when those do

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Speaker 1: hit your body, they will annihilate and create a tiny

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Speaker 1: little flash of light. But it's such a tiny amount

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Speaker 1: of antimatter that it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 8: Well, that's why I eat bananas, because you know, makes

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Speaker 8: me glow, makes me feel lighter too. Isn't potassium in everything?

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Speaker 8: I mean, it's all around us too, right, It's not

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Speaker 8: just bananas that have potassium.

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Speaker 1: That's right. It's not just bananas that have potassium, and

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Speaker 1: it's all sorts of other things. That also radioactively decay,

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Speaker 1: so it's actually antimatter sort of all around us all

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Speaker 1: the time. It's also showering down on us from the

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Speaker 1: atmosphere because of cosmic ray impacts.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, there are all kinds of amazing things showing us

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Speaker 8: at the moment right now and enveloping us. And for

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Speaker 8: a lot of those things, we still have big questions

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Speaker 8: about them, even big things like gravity.

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Speaker 1: Antimatter is fascinating. It appears in science fiction, but it's

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Speaker 1: also something that's real. It's one of these interesting hints

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Speaker 1: that the universe is more complex than just the stuff

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Speaker 1: that we are made out of, that the universe is

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Speaker 1: capable of doing many more things than can just be

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Speaker 1: found out of the particles that we are made of.

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Speaker 1: There are all sorts of other weird possible particles out there,

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Speaker 1: and they all give us hints about what the underlying

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Speaker 1: rules are governing the universe itself. And you're right, because

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Speaker 1: antimatter is so rare, there are basic questions we have

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Speaker 1: about its properties.

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Speaker 8: Yank tuning something as basic as gravity, gravity, which you know,

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Speaker 8: we kind of depend on every day of our lives

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Speaker 8: to stay on planet Earth. Without gravity, we'd all be

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Speaker 8: floating out there in space.

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Speaker 1: That's not something I ever worry about, but maybe I

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Speaker 1: should start to do. We need to like look at

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Speaker 1: the gravity prediction every day as well as the weather prediction.

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Speaker 8: Well, I know it's a heavy burden to be carrying

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Speaker 8: around worrying about gravity, but it seems to be pretty reliable, right,

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Speaker 8: we ever notice any change? I mean, I don't want

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Speaker 8: to inquire about your weight or anything like that. That's

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Speaker 8: also personal information.

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Speaker 1: That definitely explains her. Right, It's not that I'm getting

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Speaker 1: heavier and heavier, It's that the gravity of the Earth

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Speaker 1: itself is increasing.

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Speaker 8: It sounds like you have an amazing experiment in a

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Speaker 8: hand here, But it does raise a lot of interesting

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Speaker 8: questions about gravity and antimatter, specifically whether or not they

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Speaker 8: are the same for everything in the universe.

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Speaker 1: That's right, antimatter seems to be like the opposite of

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Speaker 1: matter in so many interesting ways, and so people also

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Speaker 1: wonder whether or not antimatter falls down or whether it

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Speaker 1: might possibly fall.

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Speaker 8: Up, like does antimatter fail upwards? So today on the program,

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Speaker 8: we'll be tackling the question does antimatter feel anti gravity? Interesting? Now,

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Speaker 8: are you saying it might feel anti gravity or it

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Speaker 8: has anti feelings against gravity.

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Speaker 1: We should invite it onto the podcast to ask it

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Speaker 1: what its emotional response is to gravity. But I think

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Speaker 1: today we're focusing on a more physics question, which is,

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Speaker 1: just like, when gravity does its thing, where does antimatter go?

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Speaker 8: Hmmm? Does it like run away from gravity? Is that

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Speaker 8: what you mean?

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Speaker 1: Because antimatter is the opposite of matter in so many

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Speaker 1: interesting ways, Yet we also really don't understand how gravity

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Speaker 1: works for fundamental particles. We think about gravity in terms

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Speaker 1: of like boulders or basketballs, or baseballs, or even little

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Speaker 1: bits of sand, But once we get down to the

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Speaker 1: quantum level, those particles do things that baseball's, basketballs and

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Speaker 1: bits of sand can't do, and we don't really know

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Speaker 1: how to apply gravity to those situations, which opens up

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Speaker 1: all sorts of questions, like maybe it does the opposite

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Speaker 1: of what it does for normal matter.

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Speaker 8: Do you think antimatter minds that we call it antimatter?

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Speaker 8: Like maybe it just has a different opinion about the universe,

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Speaker 8: you know, maybe it's just pro something else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in the antimatter galaxies that might be

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Speaker 1: out there in deep space. On their podcast, they're probably

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Speaker 1: calling us the antimatter.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, or maybe there's a third opinion. You know, why

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Speaker 8: does it have to be so adversarial these politics of physics.

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Speaker 1: Stop the polarization of physics exactly, it's all just matter.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's not helping our society for sure. Well, as usual,

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Speaker 8: we were wondering how many people had thought about antimatter

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Speaker 8: and whether it feels gravity, or whether it feels anti gravity,

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Speaker 8: or whether it anti feels gravity.

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Speaker 1: So thanks very much to everybody who participates in this

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Speaker 1: segment of the podcast. If you would like to try

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Speaker 1: answering the question of the day, please feel free to

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Speaker 1: write in. We'll set you up and you can hear

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Speaker 1: your voice on the podcast.

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Speaker 8: So think about it for a second. Do you think

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Speaker 8: antimatter falls down or up? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 10: Gravity, because anti gravity might be things pushing each other apart.

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Speaker 8: What do you think gravity or anti gravity?

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Speaker 11: I feel like antimatter still has mass. It doesn't have

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Speaker 11: like anti mass, so I don't think it feels anti gravity.

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Speaker 11: Do we know if there's anti gravity? Is there uncle gravity?

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Speaker 10: Think that antimatter feel gravity in the same way that

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Speaker 10: normal matter feels gravity and anti gravity I think is

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Speaker 10: we don't know if that even exists.

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Speaker 8: Well, if I remember your lessons on antimatter, it should

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Speaker 8: feel gravity because antimatter is just regular matter with opposite chart.

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Speaker 12: I know that matter feels gravity because of the bending

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Speaker 12: of space time towards something with mass.

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Speaker 1: I don't really know.

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Speaker 12: What antimatter is and whether it exists in another field

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Speaker 12: or spatial field than mass. But I suppose in the

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Speaker 12: field that antimatter exists, maybe there's the bending of that field,

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Speaker 12: which would be called anti gravity. So I'd say it

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Speaker 12: does feel anti gravity.

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Speaker 8: All right, A lot of very pro and anti positions

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Speaker 8: on this question.

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Speaker 1: I'd my emotions go up and down as I was

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Speaker 1: listening to those things.

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Speaker 8: But where anti knowing an answer?

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Speaker 1: What happens when knowledge collides with anti knowledge?

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Speaker 8: You probably get the current state of affairs right now

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Speaker 8: in the world.

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Speaker 1: You get a physics podcast about the mysteries of the universe.

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Speaker 8: But it is an interesting question whether antimatter feels anti gravity,

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Speaker 8: because I guess antimatter feels negatively about a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, antimatter is one of my favorite ideas in physics

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Speaker 1: because it shows you that our matter isn't the only

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Speaker 1: kind of matter that can be out there. There's like

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Speaker 1: the opposite of our kind of matter, though, like what

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Speaker 1: exactly opposite means is a bit of a question philosophically.

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Speaker 8: Right, Well, I guess maybe start with the basics. What

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Speaker 8: is matter for some of all? Because I know there

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Speaker 8: are matter particles and there are force particles, right, I

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Speaker 8: think the basic idea is that the universe is filled

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Speaker 8: with quantum fields, and some of these are matter quantum fields.

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Speaker 10: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what we call matter is what you and I

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Speaker 1: are made out of. We call it matter because it's

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Speaker 1: the first thing we discovered, and so we sort of

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Speaker 1: name the normal stuff. And you and I are made

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Speaker 1: of these particles electrons and protons and neutrons, which are

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Speaker 1: of course made up of quarks inside them. And as

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Speaker 1: you say, they are all bound together by forces, the

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Speaker 1: electromagnetic force, the weak nuclear force, the strong force, which

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Speaker 1: all use particles to communicate with each other. So there's

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Speaker 1: like the photon for the electromagnetic force and the gluon

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Speaker 1: for the strong nuclear force. And so you and I

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Speaker 1: are like this big complicated mesh of particles all weaving

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Speaker 1: themselves together to make me and you.

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Speaker 8: Right, And we are made out of the basic three

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Speaker 8: kinds of matter particles, right, electrons and one type of

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Speaker 8: quarks and another type of quark, and wait, a third

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Speaker 8: type of quark. Right, three quarks? How many quarks are there?

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Speaker 1: There are six quarks that we have discovered, the upcork

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Speaker 1: and the down cork. Those two are the ones that

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Speaker 1: we find mostly in the proton and the neutron, although

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Speaker 1: there is a little bit of other kinds of quarks

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Speaker 1: sometimes appearing in the proton and neutron, but for the

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Speaker 1: most part, it's upcork and down quarks make protons and neutrons,

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Speaker 1: and you add electrons to complete the atom.

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Speaker 8: Right, So we're made out of those kinds of particles,

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Speaker 8: and most of the stuff in the universe is made

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Speaker 8: out of those three particles, right, like the planets, the stars,

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Speaker 8: the commets out there, the asteroids, galaxies are basically those

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Speaker 8: three kinds of particles. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we think that our entire solar system, our entire galaxy,

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Speaker 1: our cluster of galaxy is all made out of this

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Speaker 1: same kind of basic stuff. That these basic building blocks

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Speaker 1: can be put together in lots of different ways to

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Speaker 1: make stars and lava and weasels and peanut butter and

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Speaker 1: all the stuff that we know in the universe. And

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Speaker 1: that's why we call it matter. And on a semantic note,

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Speaker 1: I would include also the force particles, you know, the

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Speaker 1: gluons and the photons, the things that tie them together

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Speaker 1: to really make them who we are, so we're not

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Speaker 1: just like a loose pile of particles as constituting matter

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Speaker 1: in this case. I know, sometimes particle physics distinguished between

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Speaker 1: matter particles and force particles, but when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: matter versus antimatter, I think it makes more sense to

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Speaker 1: just lump it all together matter.

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Speaker 8: Okay, shifting definitions here of basic things like matter and force.

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Speaker 8: I guess we're all a little bit used to that.

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Speaker 8: But also that's the stuff that we're made out of.

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Speaker 8: But there's also other stuff in the universe. In this

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Speaker 8: category of matter, right, there's like heavier electrons and heavier quarks.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there are other versions of these particles. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the really fascinating things about particle physics is

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Speaker 1: that the particles we know, the electron, the upcork, and

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Speaker 1: the down cork, have these reflections. That's what I meant

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Speaker 1: earlier about the sort of philosophical definition of opposite, because

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Speaker 1: with these particles we know there are several versions of them.

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Speaker 1: So even before we talk about antimatter, as you said,

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Speaker 1: there are heavier versions of these particles, so they're sort

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Speaker 1: of reflected in this one dimension along mass. So there's

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Speaker 1: like a heavier version of the electron it's called a muon,

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Speaker 1: and a heavier version of the upcork it's called a

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Speaker 1: charm cork. And then there's a second reflection, right, So

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Speaker 1: there's the muon and then the tau is the upcork,

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Speaker 1: the charm cork, and then the top cork. So each

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Speaker 1: of these basic particles of matter that we know, there's

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Speaker 1: two more versions of each of them. So it's this

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Speaker 1: weird reflection of the kinds of matter that we're familiar

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Speaker 1: with along the mass access they're heavier versions of each

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Speaker 1: of these.

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Speaker 8: Well, not all the particles, right, the force particles don't

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Speaker 8: have heavier cousins, do they.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Only the fermions have these heavier cousins.

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Speaker 1: We're not aware of any heavier version of the photon

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Speaker 1: or the z boson.

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Speaker 8: Okay, but there is something called antimatter particles, which is

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Speaker 8: like if you take all of those particles you mentioned,

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Speaker 8: the ones we're made out of, they're heavier cousins, and

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Speaker 8: also in some ways if you also take the force

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Speaker 8: particles and nump it a while in there is a

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Speaker 8: whole other version of all of those particles that are

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Speaker 8: called antimatter.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So all these particles that we're aware of,

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Speaker 1: there's another way they're reflected. Not just like there's a

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Speaker 1: heavier version of them, but now there's like this opposite

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Speaker 1: version of them. Where we take all the charges, for example,

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Speaker 1: and we flip them, so the electron has charged minus one.

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Speaker 1: There's another version of the electron, which we call the

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Speaker 1: an antimatter version of the electron. Sometimes we call it

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Speaker 1: a positron, which has charge plus one, and so it's

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Speaker 1: reflected in this like different direction. And that's true also

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Speaker 1: for the muon, and for the upcork, and for the

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Speaker 1: down cork and the top cork. All these particles have

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Speaker 1: their antimatter versions.

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Speaker 8: So the antimatter versions are when you flip through charges,

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Speaker 8: which is related to the kind of force they feel,

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Speaker 8: right like electrons feel the electromagnetic force, which means they

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Speaker 8: have a charge, and that's what you flip to get

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Speaker 8: the anti electron exactly.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking here just about the electric charge which

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Speaker 1: is a label that we put on particles that feel

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Speaker 1: the electromagnetic force. And a minus charge means one thing

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Speaker 1: and a positive charge means something else. And we know,

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Speaker 1: for example, that like positive negative charges will pull on

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Speaker 1: each other and similar charges will repel each other. So

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Speaker 1: that's a label we put on particles to describe how

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Speaker 1: they react to electromagnetic fields. And so an electron and

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Speaker 1: a positron are the same, except they react oppositely to

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Speaker 1: these fields. The same electromagnetic field which pushes an electron

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Speaker 1: up will push a positron down, so it has the

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Speaker 1: same mass as an electron, but the opposite electric charge.

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Speaker 8: Right. And then other particles, like the quarks, they don't

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Speaker 8: feel the electromagnetic force, right, so they don't have electrical charge. Right.

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Speaker 1: Quarks do have electromagnetic charge, but they're really weird. They're

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Speaker 1: like plus two thirds or minus one third. So they

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Speaker 1: definitely feel electromagnetic fields. You just don't typically think of

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Speaker 1: them as doing so because they also have a charge

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Speaker 1: for a much more powerful force, a strong nuclear force.

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Speaker 1: So they have the electric charge, and they also have

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Speaker 1: this color charge for the strong nuclear force.

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Speaker 8: Okay, so quarks feel the color charge and also the

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Speaker 8: electric charge. Now, then, is an anti quark something that

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Speaker 8: has both of those things flipped or just one of

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Speaker 8: those things flipped.

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Speaker 1: Both of those things get flipped for an anti quark exactly.

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Speaker 8: And I guess that's true for all the other particles.

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Speaker 8: But what about the force particles. That's also true for

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Speaker 8: their antimatter versions.

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Speaker 1: So that's really interesting. It actually depends on the force particle.

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Speaker 1: So for example, the W boson that actually carries electric charge,

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Speaker 1: it's like there's a positive version and a negative version,

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Speaker 1: and one is the anti particle of the other. So

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Speaker 1: the antiparticle of the W plus is the W minus.

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Speaker 8: Okay, Yeah, And then there's some interesting things about certain

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Speaker 8: particles that are their own antiparticle, like photons, right.

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Speaker 1: That's right. For photons, there is no other particle to

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Speaker 1: serve as the antiparticle. They are their own anti particle,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of weird. But the way we think

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Speaker 1: about it in particle physics is like you take a particle,

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Speaker 1: you apply the anti particle operator to it, and say,

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Speaker 1: what do you get. If you start with an electron

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Speaker 1: and you apply the antimatter particle operator to it, you

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Speaker 1: get a positron. You start with the photon and you

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Speaker 1: apply this operator to it, you just get the photon back.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like symmetric. So the photon serves as

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Speaker 1: its own antiparticle.

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Speaker 8: Because I guess, does the photon have a charge?

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Speaker 1: Photon does not have an electric charge, right, The photon

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Speaker 1: does not feel electromagnetic fields. If a photon is flying

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Speaker 1: through space and this an electric field there, it does

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Speaker 1: not bend the path of the photon.

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Speaker 8: If you don't have anything to flip, then you can't

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Speaker 8: have an antimatter because is that kind of generally the rule.

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Speaker 1: That's generally the rule, and that holds also for example,

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Speaker 1: for gluons. Gluons are the particle that transmit the strong

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Speaker 1: nuclear force, and they do carry color. They carry this charge,

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Speaker 1: and so you can't have anti gluons. You can take

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Speaker 1: a gluon and make the anti version of it. It

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Speaker 1: has the opposite color.

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Speaker 8: All right. So that's matter and antimatter. But one thing

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Speaker 8: I guess all matter seems to have in common, whether

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Speaker 8: or not it feels certain forces or not, is that

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Speaker 8: everybody seems to feel gravity.

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Speaker 10: Right.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're not exactly sure about what happens with antimatter

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Speaker 1: and gravity, but there is something we think that isn't flipped,

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Speaker 1: which is the mass like an electron we think has

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Speaker 1: the same mass as a positron, it's not like that

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Speaker 1: mass then goes negative. That suggests they probably have a

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Speaker 1: similar relationship to gravity as the original particle, but we

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Speaker 1: just aren't sure.

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Speaker 8: Well, yeah, I guess that's what I was trying to

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Speaker 8: get at, which is that a lot of most of

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Speaker 8: these particles, the matter particles, have mass, right, that's one

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Speaker 8: thing we know about them, and almost in a way,

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Speaker 8: that's kind of what makes the matter particles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all the fermions definitely do have mass. Even the

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Speaker 1: neutrinos have mass, even though they have a really tiny

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Speaker 1: little bit of it, and all of them get mass,

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Speaker 1: we think from the same process, which is interacting with

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Speaker 1: the Higgs boson. And to interact with the Higgs boson

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Speaker 1: you have to have an antimatter particle. Also, the Higgs

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Speaker 1: boson requires particles to interact like in pairs. It couldn't

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Speaker 1: give the electron mass if the positron didn't exist.

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Speaker 8: For example, Right, All right, well then I guess you know,

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Speaker 8: we know that all of these matter particles feel gravity, right,

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Speaker 8: because we feel gravity and all of the things on

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Speaker 8: Earth feel gravity, and we know that the stars and

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Speaker 8: the planets out there, and the galaxies and the galaxy

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Speaker 8: clusters all feel gravity, and they're mostly made out of

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Speaker 8: matter stuff. And so the question then is does antimatter

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Speaker 8: also feel gravity or does it feel something else, maybe

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Speaker 8: the opposite of gravity. And so let's get into that

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Speaker 8: weighty question. But first let's take a quick break.

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473
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Speaker 1: of Greek yogurt, you're probably not thinking about the environmental

474
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475
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476
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty fifty.

477
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: That's why they're working hard every day to find new

478
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479
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,760
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480
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481
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482
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Speaker 1: How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use

483
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485
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488
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490
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491
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Speaker 8: All right, we're anti talking about not feeling anti gravity

492
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 8: or is this a pro gravity podcast.

493
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm definitely pro gravity. I don't want it to pick

494
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 1: up and move somewhere else like I'd like for it

495
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: to stay pretty much where it is. I'm relying on

496
00:24:58,520 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: it every day.

497
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 8: Oh real, I guess I'm more morally flexible when it

498
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 8: comes to gravity. I mean, if I could, like, you know,

499
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 8: ignore it for a little bit, that'd be pretty cool

500
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 8: to fly around, Wouldn't that be great?

501
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: It would be nice to be able to manipulate gravity, right,

502
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: If we had ways to create like anti gravity somehow,

503
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 1: it'd be easier to move your bed across the room,

504
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 1: or to shift stuff across the world, or to launch

505
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: stuff into outer space. That would be pretty awesome.

506
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 8: Forget other stuff, how about ourselves, we could all be

507
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 8: flying around.

508
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: Finally, you'd get that flying car exactly right.

509
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 8: It could be an anti car.

510
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: Well, that's one of the exciting things about all of

511
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: these open questions is that once you understand the way

512
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: the universe works, you might discover something really surprising that's

513
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: could give you a handle for creating all sorts of

514
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: new crazy technologies.

515
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, I mean we've been waiting for these anti

516
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 8: gravity flying cars for years. We're still waiting, Daniel, what's

517
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 8: the hold.

518
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 1: Of Well, you know, anti matter is not easy to study.

519
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: It's sort of all around us in very very tiny

520
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: amounts it's made when cosmic rays hit the atmosphere. Part

521
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 1: of the shower of particles that comes down to the

522
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: surface is antimatter. There's like muons and anti muons as well,

523
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: but it doesn't last very long because it smashes into

524
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: stuff and annihilates, and there just doesn't seem to be

525
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: very much of it in the universe, which is one

526
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: of the big mysteries.

527
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 8: Right.

528
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: We talked a lot about how matter and antimatter are symmetric.

529
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: It's all the same, just with the flipped number. You

530
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: might wonder like, well, why isn't there more antimatter in

531
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: the universe. Why is the universe matter and not antimatter?

532
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: What's the difference in the end?

533
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, we have a whole episode on that, and I

534
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 8: think we also have a whole episode on the annihilation

535
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 8: of matter and antimatter. Right. When a matter particle like

536
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 8: an electron hits its antimatter version a positron, they like

537
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 8: disappear and turn into pure energy, right.

538
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, they can turn into a photon, they can turn

539
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,479
Speaker 1: into a z boson, and you're right, they do disappear, right,

540
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: It's not like what comes out as a rearrangement of

541
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: the bits inside the electron and the positron. There really

542
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: is alchemy that we're talking. You're transforming the energy from

543
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: one quantum field the electron of the positron field, then

544
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: into a photon field, and then into something else. That

545
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: photon can turn into quarks or into w's or into

546
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: something else entirely. It really is pretty awesome. This annihilation

547
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: is like a conduit for transforming matter into something else.

548
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 8: And it's funny that you mentioned that it's all around us, right,

549
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 8: I mean, well, technically it is all around us, because

550
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 8: if there's an electron quantum field all around this, there's

551
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 8: also an anti electron quantum field all around us too.

552
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 11: Right.

553
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 8: Is it a separate field or is it the same

554
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 8: field as the electron?

555
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: Oh, good question, It is its own field. There's another

556
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: field there for the anti electron. We tend to couple

557
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: them together sometimes in the calculations, although it gets complicated

558
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: because there's like left handed versions of them and right

559
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: handed versions of them, and the weak force treats those differently.

560
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: Dig into our episode about the weak force and symmetry

561
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: to understand that more in detail. But the short answer is, yes,

562
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: we are surrounded by quantum fields for anti particles. Even

563
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: if there are actually anti particles around us, their fields

564
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: are there that like parking spots are there even if

565
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: no cars are in them.

566
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, there's negativity all around us these days, it seems.

567
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 8: But as we're saying, what's interesting about antimatter is that

568
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 8: it's like regular matter, but it has certain of its

569
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 8: properties flipped, like the charge of the electromagnetic force in charge,

570
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 8: and also it's a color and things like that. And

571
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 8: so one thing that regular matter particles we know have

572
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 8: is something called mass, Like it's a little it's a

573
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 8: property of regular matter particles, and that's the thing that

574
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 8: gives it, you know, inertia, and it makes it feel gravity. Right,

575
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 8: it's kind of a measure of how much it feels

576
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 8: gravity or how hard it is to push or pull.

577
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 13: Yeah.

578
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: Mass is one of these amazing things that seems so simple.

579
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: We think we understand it. You have an intuitive sense

580
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: of what mass is, but when you dig into it theoretically,

581
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: it turns out to be kind of complicated. As you say,

582
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: the two different ideas of mass there. One is inertial mass,

583
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: which is like when you push on something, how much

584
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: does it move? And that's the mass that appears in

585
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: Newton's equation F equals MA. Basically, it relates f how

586
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: hard you're pushing on something to a how fast it

587
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: accelerates when you push on it. And Newton tells us

588
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: that the relationship between those two quantities is mass. That's

589
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: sort of what inertial mass is. Something with more inertial

590
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: mass takes a larger force to get the same acceleration.

591
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: Something with almost no inertial mass you can accelerate pretty

592
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 1: easily with a very small force. That's conceptually different from

593
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: this other concept of mass, gravitational mass. That's the mass

594
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: that appears in like the gravitational force equation GMM over

595
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: R squared that tells you how strong a gravitational force

596
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: is between two objects.

597
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 8: Right, and so regular particles have this property that we

598
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 8: call mass. I mean, we've called it before in this podcast.

599
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 8: Like it's almost like a label or it's almost like

600
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 8: a charge for the force of gravity, right, Like the

601
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 8: electric charge is kind of like it's a measure of

602
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 8: how much it feels your electromynetic force. Mass is kind

603
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 8: of like the measure of how much it feels gravity innership. Right,

604
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 8: It's almost like it's like a little property of matter.

605
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a little property of matter, and you

606
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: shouldn't think of it as like how much stuff the

607
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: electron has or how much stuff the top quark has.

608
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: In our theory, these are all point particles that have

609
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: no volume. This is just like a property of the particle.

610
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: If you're comfortable assigning like quantum labels to things like

611
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: this thing has a positive charge and you don't have

612
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: to like figure out a physical place for that charge

613
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: to live, you should try to do the same thing

614
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: with the mass of the particle. Like the particle just

615
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: has this mass. You don't have to like have room

616
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: to put enough stuff into the top cork to make

617
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: it heavy. It just sort of is that massive. There's

618
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: another interesting level to dig into there, which is like

619
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: is this mass actually a property of the particle itself

620
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: or is it a property of the interaction of that

621
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: particle with fields, Because we think that like in a

622
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: universe without a Higgs field, all these matter particles, the

623
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: top cork, the electron, they would be mass less, they

624
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: would fly around like photons. It's only because the Higgs

625
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: field is there that these particles have a mass. So

626
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: sort of like a cloud of Higgs bosons surrounding every

627
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: particle changing the way it moves so that it looks

628
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: like as if it had mass. So if you want

629
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 1: to zoom out, you could just think, I'm just going

630
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: to put a label on these particles. If you want

631
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: to zoom in, you could think about, like, well, this

632
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: particle is sort of like a virtual cloud of Higgs

633
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: bosons around it that are changing it. I'm just going

634
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: to label the whole cloud is having this mass.

635
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 8: Do you think of it as a kind of a label,

636
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 8: Like you said that what particles just have just like

637
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 8: electric charge? And so the question is if antimatter is

638
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 8: just regular matter with some of the charges flip, does

639
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 8: it also flip the label of mass, like does it

640
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 8: also flip how it feels gravity or how it feels inertia? Right,

641
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 8: that's the main question we're asking today.

642
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it really comes down to this basic question

643
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: about what is gravity anyway? Is gravity a force the

644
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: way the other forces are, you know, the electromagnetic force

645
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: and the strong force who have all their charges flipped.

646
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: For antimatter, you think about it that way, then gravity

647
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: is just another force and the charge for it is

648
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: mass as you say, And then it would make sense.

649
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: It would be like symmetric. It would follow the pattern

650
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: if also mass was flipped for antimatter. Or is gravity

651
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: not a force? If gravity is something else, And we've

652
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: been thinking about it as a force because we just

653
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: don't see the curvature of space and time, and so

654
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: we've created this fictitious force to explain the effect of

655
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: the bending of space time on the motion of particles.

656
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,719
Speaker 1: And if that's the case, it would make sense for

657
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: space time to treat everything inside of it the same

658
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: way antimatter and matter. Particles are both just little bundles

659
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: of energy, and is energy that bends that space, and

660
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: so then it would make sense for matter and antimatter

661
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: to all have the same relationship with gravity instead of

662
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: the opposite relationship. So this question about whether antimatter feels

663
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: gravity or anti gravity is also kind of a question

664
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: about like what is gravity anyway?

665
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 8: But I guess the main picture we're trying to pain

666
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 8: is that, you know, like if an electron has a

667
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 8: negative charge, the negative electric charge, and it ways you know,

668
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 8: point zero zero zero zero zero something kilograms, does an

669
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 8: anti electron not just have positive electric charge, but does

670
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 8: it also maybe weigh negative zero point zero zeros or

671
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 8: zero something kilograms And what would that mean for the

672
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 8: anti electron?

673
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be super fascinating, right, And because we

674
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: have two different concepts of mass, we have to think

675
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: about them sort of individually. Like if a positron had

676
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: negative inertial mass, what would that mean. It would mean

677
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: that if you push on it in one direction, it

678
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: would accelerate the other direction. Right. Remember force equals mass

679
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: times acceleration. These are vectors, So if mass is negative,

680
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: that means that acceleration of force are pointing in different directions.

681
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 1: So you like give it a shove to the left

682
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: and it moves to the right. That's what having negative

683
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: inertial mass would mean. That's like really counterintuitive. Negative gravitational

684
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: mass would be different. It would allow for gravitational pulsion.

685
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: Gravity attracts things that both have positive mass. But if

686
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: two particles, one with positive gravitational mass and when with

687
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: negative gravitational mass, meet, they might repel each other, which

688
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: would be really interesting because that's not something we've ever

689
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: seen gravitational repulsion.

690
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, super fascinating, And so let's maybe talk more about

691
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 8: each of these scenarios one at a time. And so,

692
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 8: first of all, let's say that antimatter doesn't just flip

693
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 8: the charges electrical charges of the forces in regular matter particles,

694
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 8: but let's say it also flips its inertial mass, so

695
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 8: it has anti inertia. I guess is the idea. And

696
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 8: like you said, it's kind of counterintuitive. Where you try

697
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 8: to push something but it actually moves towards you. That

698
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 8: would be weird, right.

699
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: That hope would be very weird and sort of counter

700
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: to everything we've understood in everything we've experienced in the universe.

701
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: That would be a very strange experience. So has to

702
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: shove somebody and then have them slam into you.

703
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 8: But I guess maybe it does make sense if you

704
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 8: just think about it as it being antimatter, and where

705
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 8: you think you're pushing it, you're actually pulling it because

706
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 8: it feels you're pushing force the opposite way, so it's

707
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 8: almost like you're just pulling on something, right, Like an

708
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 8: electron attracts a positively charged particle, right, so it doesn't

709
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 8: push it when it gets near it, it actually pulls it.

710
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 8: So couldn't that just be the same for antimass.

711
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: It could be, although it's a bit more general than that.

712
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: We're talking about. Any force applied to a positron would

713
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 1: then move it in the opposite direction of that force,

714
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: whether it's a gravitational force or an electromagnetic force, or

715
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: the weak force, which positrons also feel. It's a little

716
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: bit deeper than just saying electromagnetism can attract and repel.

717
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: So what's the big deal. Now it's applied to every

718
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: force on this positron, it would be pretty strange.

719
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, But I mean if you think about it, like

720
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 8: an electron repels another electron, right, because they have both

721
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 8: have negative charge. Now, if you have an electron and

722
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 8: a positron, they would normally attract each other because they

723
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 8: have opposite charges. But then if it has negative inertial mass,

724
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 8: then it actually maybe flips that force and it does repel.

725
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what happens there is even weirder

726
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: because the positron is repelled from the electron, but the

727
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: electron is still attracted to the positron, right, It's still

728
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: attracted to that positive charge, and so they sort of

729
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: like chase each other, Like the positron gets pushed away

730
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: from the electron, but the electron gets pulled along with

731
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: the positron, so you get this sort of like weird

732
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: runaway effect.

733
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, I guess that is kind of a way to

734
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 8: prove that antimatter doesn't have anti inertial mass. Is that

735
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 8: you know, if you have an electron, it gets attracted

736
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 8: to an anti electron, which means that it doesn't have

737
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 8: anti inertia.

738
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, anti inertia would be really weird. Negative inertial mass

739
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: particles would behave very strangely, And this is something we

740
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: would have seen because we do see positrons in the world.

741
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 1: We see them in cosmic rays, we can bend them

742
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: with magnets. We don't see them doing this sort of

743
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: weird behavior of being pushed in the opposite direction of

744
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: the force. So negative inertial mass is not something anybody

745
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: really considers seriously when it comes to antimatter. It would

746
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: be really bizarre.

747
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 8: We haven't seen it, but I wonder if it's possible,

748
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 8: Like could you have maybe a third version of an electron,

749
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 8: not just a positron, but something that has its opposite

750
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 8: charge but also has negative inertia, which would act just

751
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 8: like another electron to an electron, Like you would think

752
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 8: it was an electron, but really it's an antimatter electron

753
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 8: with a flip inertial mass.

754
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, a negative mass electron. It's certainly possible that there

755
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: are other reflections of the particles that we're not aware of,

756
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: and we're not limited to just matter and antimatter or

757
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: heavier versions. You know, there are theories about like super

758
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: symmetric versions of each of these particles, and so it's

759
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: totally possible to come up with another idea, like a

760
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: particle that it's just like the electron, but with negative

761
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: inertial mass, and say maybe it could exist in the universe.

762
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 1: Then you have to answer questions like, well, why was

763
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: it made in the Big Bang? Where are these If

764
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: they do exist, why haven't we seen them? And if

765
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: you haven't seen them, you have to come up with

766
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: an explanation for why they don't seem to appear in

767
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: our universe. But it doesn't mean that it couldn't possibly

768
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: exist in the universe.

769
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 8: But I guess you're saying that the antimatter that we

770
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 8: have seen so far, like the anti electrons that we've seen,

771
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 8: seem to have regular inertial mass.

772
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is not so challenging to observe because

773
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: we can apply pretty powerful forces like electromagnetic forces to

774
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: antimatter particles which are rare but not impossible to make

775
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: and too manipulate, and we can see their behavior. And so,

776
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: for example, the discovery of antimatter was seeing a positron

777
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: moved through a magnetic field and bending in a way

778
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: that an electron doesn't. So we're pretty sure that antimatter

779
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: has an inertial mass the same way that normal matter does.

780
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 8: All right, well, now let's tackle this idea of having

781
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 8: anti gravitational mass. Now, is there such a thing as

782
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 8: gravitational mass? I thought gravity wasn't really a force, It

783
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 8: was really kind of a bending of space.

784
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: This idea has some interesting history. Consider these things separate.

785
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: He said, things have inertial mass and they have gravitational mass.

786
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: These are different ideas. If you're out an empty space

787
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: where there's no gravity, and objects still had inertia, right,

788
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: and the force of gravity, the mass that appears in

789
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: there didn't necessarily have to be the same as the

790
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: mass in f equals MA. People measured it, and they

791
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 1: always found these two things to be the same. The

792
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: mass that appears in those equations were the same, and

793
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: so people thought, well, that's weird. What a crazy coincidence

794
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: of these things really are separate concepts and yet always

795
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: managed to be exactly the same. So that was sort

796
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: of an unexplained mystery for a long time. Einstein, when

797
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: he developed his theory of relativity, he said, well, let's

798
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: just assume that these things are the same. He baked

799
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: that in to his theory of relativity. That's not a

800
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: proof that they are, that's just an assumption at the

801
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: foundation of general relativity. He said that gravity and inertia

802
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: are basically the same thing.

803
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 8: Okay, and so then what does that mean for having

804
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 8: negative gravitational mass or anti gravitational mass.

805
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: Well, it means that general relativity makes a very strong

806
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: prediction that anything with energy mends space the same way.

807
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: And so we think that antimatter probably feels gravity the

808
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: same way that matter does. So Einstein in general relativity say,

809
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: antimatter should feel gravity, it shouldn't feel anti gravity. That's

810
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: a strong predition from general relativity.

811
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 8: Well, that's a strong use saying assumption about general relativity. Right,

812
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 8: But is it possible for something to have negative gravitational

813
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 8: mass so that if I throw it at a black hole,

814
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 8: it's actually going to run away from the black hole,

815
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 8: and not towards the black hole.

816
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 1: I mean it's possible in the sense that like anything

817
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: is possible in the universe, and we don't know if

818
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: general relativity accurately describes everything in the universe, and specifically,

819
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: we don't know how to apply general relativity to particles.

820
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: So it's possible that antimatter breaks general relativity and that

821
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: quantum gravity allows for other weird forces on antimatter particles,

822
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: like anti gravity. But if you just say we believe

823
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: in general relativity, then it's not possible for antimatter to

824
00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: have anti gravity.

825
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 8: I see, so if something could have negative gravitational mass,

826
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 8: it would mean Einstein was wrong, or that general creativity

827
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 8: needs to be maybe expanded. Doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong,

828
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 8: or would you just need to like add something to

829
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 8: Einstein's theory.

830
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting philosophical question. I mean, we're pretty

831
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: sure that Einstein is wrong, not in the sense that

832
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 1: any of his predictions have been proven wrong, but we

833
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: don't know how to extend his theory to quantum particles.

834
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 1: It definitely needs some sort of adaptation, and that might

835
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: mean that it needs to be tossed out and completely

836
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: replaced with the theory of quantum gravity. That's a completely

837
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: different picture of how space gets bent using like quantum gravitons.

838
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: Or it might be that we take Einstein's theory and

839
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: we quantize it that we like say, space itself is

840
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: made of quantum bits that are woven together, and general

841
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: relativity emerges from that. We really don't know whether we

842
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: need to build on top of Einstein's theory or whether

843
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: we need to like re examine the very foundations of it,

844
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: but we do know that it can't work in the

845
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: quantum realm, so it needs some sort of update. It

846
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: might be that we just covered failing only when we

847
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: see inside black holes, or it might be that we

848
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: discover it failing when we examine the gravitational properties of antimatter.

849
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 8: Well, I guess I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

850
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 8: Are you saying that? Okay? So Einstein's theory assumes that

851
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 8: gravitational mass and inertial mass are the same, which means

852
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 8: that you can't have negative gravitational mass anti gravitational mass,

853
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 8: or that you still could or like, if you have

854
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 8: negative inertial mas anti inertial mass, then that would also

855
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 8: mean you have anti gravity irritational mass.

856
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: Einstein's theory says you can't have negative gravitational mass. That

857
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: just can't happen because of the equivalence principle. But we

858
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: don't know that that's true, right, We don't know what

859
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: the universe actually does. So if we discover anti matter

860
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: with negative gravitational mass, that means general relativity is wrong

861
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: in some important way.

862
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 8: But maybe wouldn't that just mean that it has negative

863
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 8: inertial mass. Like if something has a negative inertial MAM mass,

864
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 8: then in Einstein's formulation, they would also have negative gravitational mass.

865
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really cool thing. You're right that general

866
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: relativity just requires that they have the same inertial and

867
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 1: gravitational mass, which I suppose would allow for them to

868
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: both be negative. But again, we haven't seen particles with

869
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: negative inertial mass. So the antimatter we know and we

870
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: are familiar with doesn't have negative inertial mass, So then

871
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: general relativity would predict that it also has positive gravitational mass.

872
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 8: So then it is possible to have a particle out

873
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 8: there that if you throw at a black hole, it's

874
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 8: going to run away from the black hole.

875
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: But if it has both negative and gravitational mass. It

876
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 1: would have the opposite force on it, and then that

877
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: force would push it in the opposite direction, and two

878
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: opposites resulted in going the same way.

879
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 8: WHOA, So it would still go towards the black hole.

880
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 1: It would still go towards the black hole.

881
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 8: Yes, because they would cancel each other out.

882
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Black hole's force would technically be away from it,

883
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: and that would result in the particle moving towards it.

884
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 8: So double bonkers unless somehow Einstein's theory is wrong and

885
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 8: they're sort of not the same thing, right.

886
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: Exactly, the possibility that Einstein is wrong and that antimatter

887
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 1: particles have positive inertial mass and negative gravitational mass.

888
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 8: All right, well, it seems like it is possible maybe

889
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 8: to have anti gravity from being an antimatter particle, to

890
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 8: have anti inertial or anti gravitational mass. It seems possible.

891
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 8: But I guess then the question is does it actually happen?

892
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 8: What are some experiments we've done to try to find

893
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 8: the answer to this question. So let's get into that.

894
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 8: But first, let's take another quick break.

895
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

896
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt. You're probably

897
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

898
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 1: but the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

899
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

900
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

901
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to produce waste,

902
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 1: conserve natural sources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

903
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

904
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

905
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy

906
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

907
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: the methane from maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

908
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

909
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

910
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

911
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

912
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

913
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: US dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

914
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Speaker 2: We're just days away from our twenty twenty four iHeartRadio

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Speaker 8: Hi.

925
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 9: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

926
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 9: hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a

927
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 9: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

928
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 9: three pound universe.

929
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Speaker 1: In our heads.

930
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 9: We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this

931
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932
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933
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Speaker 9: Why is it so hard to keep a secret, When

934
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935
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Speaker 9: easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love

936
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 9: conspiracy theories. I'm hitting these questions and hundreds.

937
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Speaker 1: More because the more we.

938
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 9: Know about what's running under the hood the better we

939
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 9: can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the

940
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,959
Speaker 9: relationship between your brain and your life by digging into

941
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 9: unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eaglelman on

942
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,359
Speaker 9: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

943
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 7: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. If you follow me

944
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945
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949
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950
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958
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960
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961
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962
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 8: All right, we are feeling a lot of anti emotions

963
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 8: here talking about antimatter, anti gravity, anti mass, anti everything.

964
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 8: It's a very controring episode.

965
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: We're going up, we're going down. We're going anti up

966
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: and anti down all at the same time.

967
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 8: Can you go anti anti?

968
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: Those would be your double negative mass particles, right, that'd

969
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,439
Speaker 1: be anti anti attracted to a black hole?

970
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 8: Hmmm, what would you call the antimatter version of your parents' sister?

971
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 8: You're anti anti. These are tough questions we're asking today

972
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 8: that maybe we're still listening or they left in an

973
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 8: anti huff.

974
00:48:58,680 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: All.

975
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 8: Are we talking about whether or not antimatter feels anti gravity,

976
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 8: which is kind of a turned out to be a

977
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 8: pretty complicated question because, first of all, you have to

978
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 8: think about whether antimatter has anti inertial mass or anti

979
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 8: gravitational mass, and whether or not if they're the same

980
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 8: thing according to Eesein, or maybe the or not. I

981
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 8: don't know, Daniel. I feel like from all this theoretical discussion,

982
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 8: it seems like you're saying that it's not possible to

983
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 8: have anti gravity.

984
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 1: I think it's very unlikely that antimatter has anti gravity

985
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: just because general relativity is so successful yadiadiada dot dot dot.

986
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: On the other hand, why do we do experiments. We

987
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: don't do experiments just to like yawn and check the

988
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: boxes off of theoretical predictions. We do experiments because we

989
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: want to explore the universe. We want to find crazy,

990
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: shocking things that we can't explain that let us pull

991
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: the rug out of everything we thought we knew and

992
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: build up new ideas about the universe. So this is

993
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,919
Speaker 1: definitely something we should check. We should go and see

994
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:00,760
Speaker 1: whether antimatter follows our expectations or anti follows them.

995
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 8: I think I see what you're saying. You're saying you're

996
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 8: anti anti gravity, but you're pro the government giving you

997
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 8: more money to run experiments. Is that kind of what

998
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 8: I'm sensing here. I sense a little contradictory position here.

999
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: I think it's just exciting to go out and ask

1000
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: basic questions, like, hey, does antimatter fall up or down.

1001
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: And it's incredible to me that almost one hundred years

1002
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 1: after we've discovered anti matter, we still don't really know

1003
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: the answer to that. Like, experimentally, it turns out to

1004
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: be surprisingly tricky to do experiments with antimatter.

1005
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 8: Right, and specifically, you're talking about measuring I guess the

1006
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 8: gravity of a particle, right, I mean, you can measure

1007
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 8: the gravity of a planet, of a person, of a banana,

1008
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 8: but it's hard to kind of talk about the gravity

1009
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 8: of tiny little particles because they feel very little gravity.

1010
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: It's hard to even measure the gravity of a banana.

1011
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: Like you can measure the weight of a banana, you

1012
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: put it on a scale, but there you're measuring the

1013
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: gravity of the Earth. Right, the Earth is pulling on

1014
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: the banana. If you have two bananas in the room

1015
00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: next to you, it's pretty hard to measure their attraction

1016
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 1: between themselves because gravity is so weak. It's like ten

1017
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: to the thirty times as weak as electromagnetism. So it's

1018
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: something we typically ignore. Right, you have two bananas on

1019
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 1: your table, you don't expect to see them like creep

1020
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: towards each other if you leave them alone.

1021
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 8: But they would in space, right, that's the idea. If

1022
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 8: you were floating out there in space and you had

1023
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 8: two bananas, eventually they would become a bi banana, a

1024
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 8: banana nnna.

1025
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, But even doing that experiment in space would be

1026
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 1: hard because the gravity is so weak that it might

1027
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: get swamped by other stuff, Like the solar wind would

1028
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 1: probably blow on those bananas, pushing on them harder than

1029
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: the force of gravity between the bananas. Or if the

1030
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: bananas have like a little bit of residual positive and

1031
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: negative charge, like you'd rubbed one on your pants accidentally

1032
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: and given it some static electricity, then those forces, even

1033
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 1: a few electrons on the surface of each one, would

1034
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: be more powerful than gravity. So gravity is super hard

1035
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: to measure for small things because it's so weak it's

1036
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: swamped by everything else. It's like trying to listen to

1037
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: a whisp or during a really loud concert.

1038
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 8: But I guess if you set the experiment up the

1039
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 8: right way and make sure everything doesn't have a charge,

1040
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 8: the two bananas would come together eventually, because that is

1041
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 8: what happens out there in space, right, That's how planets

1042
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 8: get formed and asteroids and the sun. Right.

1043
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, we think that's the basic process for forming all

1044
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: of the structure in the universe. And we've done some

1045
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: really pretty awesome virtuoso experiments measuring the gravity of like

1046
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: little things, things about the size of a centimeter and

1047
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: involves isolating them from everything else and seeing very very

1048
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: small motion, which people observe by like attaching a mirror

1049
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 1: to the object and shining a laser on the mirror

1050
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: and seeing the laser spot and like move a tiny

1051
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: little bit so that you see that the object has moved.

1052
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: These are really super precise experiments, very very difficult to do,

1053
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 1: but still there were with macroscopic objects. We're talking about

1054
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: like things the size of a millimeter or a centimeter,

1055
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 1: not individual particles.

1056
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 8: We can measure the mass of tiny, regular matter things,

1057
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 8: but I guess it's hard to do it with antimatter, right,

1058
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 8: because that's really the question we're asking today is like,

1059
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 8: if you have something made out of or a whole

1060
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 8: bunch of antimatter in one spot, would it feel anti gravity?

1061
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 8: That's the experiment that's also hard to do, because it's

1062
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 8: hard to put together a lot of antimatter.

1063
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: It is. We can make antimatter at cern, For example,

1064
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: we smash matter into targets and a whole spray of

1065
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: stuff comes out, including some antimatter, and we can filter

1066
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: it out and do experiments with it, and we do

1067
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But we make like p gograms

1068
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: of antimatter every year at CERN. So you want to

1069
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: make like a bananas amount of antimatter, it would cost

1070
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: zillions of dollars and take years and years and years.

1071
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: So instead of making really big objects out of antimatter,

1072
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: we try to do really precision experiments with much smaller

1073
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: amounts of antimatter.

1074
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 8: Also, would be super dangerous to make even a pie

1075
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 8: size or raisin size amount of antimatter, because then if

1076
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 8: it touches regular matter, it's it's going to destroy the

1077
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 8: Earth basically, right, Yeah.

1078
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 1: It's one of the most efficient ways to release the

1079
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,720
Speaker 1: energy inside matter, which is a huge amount. Right, MC

1080
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: squared c is a really big number. The speed of

1081
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: light C squared is a really big number squared. So

1082
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 1: as you say, like a raisin's worth of antimatter combined

1083
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: with a raisin, but have as much energy as like

1084
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: a nuclear detonation. So yes, if you are making antimatter

1085
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 1: in your kitchen, be very careful.

1086
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, we're very anti that kitchen recipe there. But I

1087
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 8: think what you're saying is that you can make antimatter

1088
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 8: in your colliders concern, but you haven't made enough to

1089
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 8: really do gravitational experiments to see whether antimatter feels anti gravity.

1090
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: We actually have done a few experiments with antimatter that

1091
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: do ask this question about the effects of gravity on

1092
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: these particles, but they're very, very difficult to do and

1093
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: not as sensitive as we'd like.

1094
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 8: Yet, what do you mean, so you did the experiments

1095
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 8: but didn't reach a conclusion or what couldn't get the data.

1096
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 1: So they've done the experiments. They take antiprotons and they

1097
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: combine them with anti electrons to make anti hydrogen. And

1098
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: the reason they do that is you need neutral antimatter.

1099
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: You don't want any electric or magnetic fields affecting your antimatter.

1100
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: You want to measure only the gravitational force on these objects.

1101
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 1: So they make neutral anti hydrogen, which is super awesome anyway,

1102
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,720
Speaker 1: because then they can do things like study the spectral

1103
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: properties of it and see if anti hydrogen behaves the

1104
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: same way as hydrogen, which this whole other really fascinating

1105
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: field of science to try to figure out what is

1106
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 1: the difference between matter and antimatter. But because they have

1107
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 1: a collection of these anti hydrogen atoms, they can also

1108
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 1: see like what happens when they float there? Like do

1109
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 1: they drift down or do they drift up?

1110
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 8: Well, I guess, first of all, how do you hold

1111
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 8: a bunch of anti hydrogen? So you create this I

1112
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 8: guess by bringing together anti electronics and anti protons, and

1113
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 8: then they make anti hydrogen, and then you get a

1114
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 8: little cloud of anti hydrogen. What do you do with that?

1115
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 8: Do you keep it inside of a bottle?

1116
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: It's really challenging to contain. You're absolutely right. What we

1117
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 1: do is we keep it in a magnetic bottle. It

1118
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: doesn't work very well. A magnetic bottle is good at

1119
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: holding charged particles because magnetic fields bend the path of

1120
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: charged particles. So, for example, the beams and the large

1121
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 1: hadron collider are kept moving in a circle because of

1122
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: very powerful magnets. Or plasma in a fusion reactor is

1123
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: kept in a magnetic bottle to keep it from escaping

1124
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 1: because it's filled with charged particles. It doesn't work very

1125
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: well on neutral particles. But even anti hydrogen has a

1126
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 1: magnetic moment because the spins of the particles, they do

1127
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: feel magnetic fields a little bit, so we can keep

1128
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: them into like a very very bad magnetic bottle, and

1129
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: it works best if those anti hydrogen atoms are slow,

1130
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: if they're cold, they're not like flying around with high velocity,

1131
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: then this very weak bottle tends to contain them. But

1132
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: that's a challenge because making anti hydrogen that's moving slowly

1133
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: is hard because you have to combine the positrons and

1134
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: the antiprotons which come in in beams, so you have

1135
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: to have like slow beams, like gases of these things

1136
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: like merge together. The whole thing is experimentally very tricky.

1137
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, it sounds pretty hard, but they had done this

1138
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 8: kind of and what did they find. Did they find

1139
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 8: that it falls to the bottom of this bad bottle

1140
00:56:57,960 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 8: or does it float up to the top of the

1141
00:56:59,480 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 8: bad bottle.

1142
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: So there's a very cool experiment at CERN. It's called

1143
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 1: the ALPHA experiment, which stands for anti Hydrogen Laser Physics Apparatus.

1144
00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: It is a terrible acronym for a really awesome experiment.

1145
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: And they do not see anti matter falling upwards very fast.

1146
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: I mean, some of these hydrogen atoms do float up

1147
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: and some of them do float down and because the

1148
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: difficulty of measuring gravity is not a very precise measurement.

1149
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: What they can do is they can say that anti

1150
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: hydrogen doesn't have a negative gravitational mass of sixty five

1151
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: times the inertial mass. So if anti hydrogen had a

1152
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: negative gravitational mass of like one hundred or a million

1153
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: times the inertial mass, they would have seen it because

1154
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: they would have flown upwards really fast. They don't see

1155
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: them flying upwards really fast. So they can say, if

1156
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: it does have a negative gravitational mass, it's not that big.

1157
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: So it's like very imprecise so far. If they had

1158
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: a lot more anti hydrogen or more time, they could

1159
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: make more precise measurements. They could sort of narrow this

1160
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: down statistically. All they can do right now is like

1161
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 1: rule out a really crazy result where anti hydrogen has

1162
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,959
Speaker 1: a negative gravitational mass that's also much bigger in magnitude

1163
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: than the inertial mass.

1164
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 8: But could it have a varying different gravitational mass in

1165
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 8: magnitude it's inertial mass.

1166
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: I mean, we're exploring the bonkers universe theory out here,

1167
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 1: so maybe right And this is also sort of like

1168
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: just the way that they can express their result. Even

1169
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: if the theoretical options are well, it either has a

1170
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 1: positive gravitational mass or negative one times the inertial mass.

1171
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 1: We can't tell the difference between those two. Experimentally, all

1172
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: we can do is tell the difference between negative sixty

1173
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: five and positive one. So we can rule out negative

1174
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: sixty five, we can't yet rule out negative one.

1175
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 8: I see, so they've done the experiment and they don't

1176
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 8: have a fear result, but it's not an anti result either.

1177
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: It's not. And they're just getting started, right, and so

1178
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: they're going to make more anti hydrogen and they're going

1179
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 1: to do more precise experiments. There are other experiments coming

1180
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 1: online at CERN to measure this in other ways, and

1181
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: so in the next few years we hope to get

1182
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: more precise measurements of the gravitational properties of antimatter.

1183
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 8: M all right, Besides CERN, are there other experiments that

1184
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 8: we've done or are going to do to measure the

1185
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 8: gravity of antimatter.

1186
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:16,959
Speaker 1: These kind of particle physics experiments are really the most

1187
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 1: direct way to probe this. You can also do other

1188
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: sort of thought experiments to think about the effects of antimatter,

1189
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,439
Speaker 1: For example, like the protons that are inside me and you.

1190
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,439
Speaker 1: We talked earlier about how they have quarks inside them

1191
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: while they also have antimatter inside them. Like the gluons

1192
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 1: that are inside the protons, they sometimes turn into quark

1193
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: antiquark pairs, like very briefly before going back to being

1194
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: a gluon the way like a photon will turn into

1195
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 1: a particle antiparticle pair briefly and go back to being

1196
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: a photon. So that means that you and I are

1197
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: partially made of antimatter. If antimatter had anti gravity in

1198
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: some weird way, then we would see the effect of

1199
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: that on protons, and we don't see any weird behavior

1200
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: of protons. It don't seem to have any sort of

1201
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: like deviation between their inertial and gravitational mass. So that's

1202
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: a strong hint that antimatter probably has normal gravity.

1203
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, we all have a little bit of negativity inside

1204
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 8: of us, a little bit of a contrarian inside of us.

1205
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 8: But I think you're saying that we all are made

1206
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 8: a little bit of antimatter, and it doesn't seem to

1207
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 8: be affecting the regular matter. But at the same time,

1208
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 8: it's a very tiny amount, isn't it Like super duper

1209
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 8: negligible the amount of antimatter inside of us.

1210
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it would be pretty negligible.

1211
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 8: All right. Well, maybe to wrap up here, I think

1212
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 8: we've sort of, maybe a little big debunked the idea

1213
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 8: of anti gravity for antimatter particles. I mean, theoretically, it

1214
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 8: seems like it's not really possible, or I mean it's possible,

1215
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 8: but we would mean we would see a very different universe.

1216
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 8: And also these experiments that you describe kind of rule

1217
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 8: it out as well. So if that's true, then if

1218
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 8: you can have anti gravity, what does that mean about

1219
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 8: our theories of the universe.

1220
01:00:57,880 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: I think I agree mostly with what you say, but

1221
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: I always hold out a little bit of hope for

1222
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: the crazy result. You know, even if the theory very

1223
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 1: strongly says that can't happen, that just makes me more

1224
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: excited to go and discover it that way, because it

1225
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: means undermining that whole theory and starting from scratch, and

1226
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: to me, those are the most exciting moments in science.

1227
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: So I think you're right that the theory very strongly

1228
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: suggests that antimatter doesn't have anti gravity, But that still

1229
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 1: makes me hopeful.

1230
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:24,439
Speaker 8: Wait, what makes you hopeful.

1231
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 1: That maybe one of these experiments will get a shocking

1232
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: result and discover antimatter floating up in a gravitational field

1233
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: and give us a clue about the next direction we

1234
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: should take for gravity, for understanding whether it is a

1235
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 1: quantum field or whether space itself is quantized, and how

1236
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: to get too quantum gravity.

1237
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 8: Hmmm, all right, well, I think what you're trying to

1238
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 8: say is keep giving you money to run these experiments

1239
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 8: just to make sure that the universe is not actually crazy.

1240
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: I'd say, we never know where the next surprise, where

1241
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: the great big learning moment about the universe, will come,

1242
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: and so it makes a lot of sense to go

1243
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: out there and do careful experiments and see if the

1244
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: universe is the way we expect or not where it's

1245
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 1: the anti way we expect.

1246
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 8: All right, Well, stay tuned as I guess we keep

1247
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 8: exploring this idea of anti matter and what gravity actually is.

1248
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 8: I guess it's hard to prove that there's such a

1249
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 8: thing as anti gravity if we don't actually kind of

1250
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 8: know what gravity is.

1251
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. We anti know gravity.

1252
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 8: Right like. It's still kind of up for debate whether

1253
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 8: general relativity, which is Einstein's theory, is right or not,

1254
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 8: and how it matches up with quantum mechanics.

1255
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: It's one of the deepest questions at the heart of

1256
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: modern physics. How to unify these two pillars of our

1257
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 1: understanding of the universe.

1258
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 8: All right, well, I guess we'll keep waiting for news

1259
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 8: from those fringes of physics.

1260
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 1: We'll keep funding those experiments.

1261
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 8: You mean it's above my pay grade? All right, well,

1262
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,959
Speaker 8: we hope you enjoyed that or anti enjoyed that. Thanks

1263
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 8: for joining us, See you next time.

1264
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain

1265
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1266
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:08,320
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