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Speaker 1: We live in a society where Race Trump's Merit.

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Speaker 2: American companies are more interested in meeting diversity quotas than

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Speaker 2: hiring the best and the most talented people. So how

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Speaker 2: soon will it be until we have surgeons who don't

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Speaker 2: know how to operate, pilots who can't fly, and what

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Speaker 2: are the dangers of it all? New York Times best

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Speaker 2: selling author Heather McDonald joins me to talk about our

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Speaker 2: new book, When Race Trump's Merit. Here's Heether, Heather. I

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Speaker 2: always love having you on the show. You're always willing

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Speaker 2: to have conversations that everyone else is afraid of. But

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Speaker 2: the conversations you're willing to have are the ones we

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Speaker 2: need to have. So I appreciate what you do, and

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Speaker 2: also I'm excited to talk to you about this new book,

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Speaker 2: When Race Trump's Merit.

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Speaker 3: Lisa, It's such a pleasure to be with you, and

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Speaker 3: you're one of the great interviewers out there, So thank

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Speaker 3: you for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Well, that is very kind coming from you, so I

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Speaker 2: really appreciate it. You know, so your book talks about

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Speaker 2: disparate impact theory.

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Speaker 1: You know, what is it? What should people know about it?

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Speaker 3: Well, what they should know is that every major institution

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Speaker 3: of American or Western civilization is now.

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Speaker 4: In the crosshairs.

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Speaker 3: It's all coming down unless we have a better explanation

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Speaker 3: for racial disparities than racism. Right now, the left controls

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Speaker 3: the discourse, and if there's any institution that has anything

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Speaker 3: less than thirteen percent black representation in it, So if

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Speaker 3: Google's engineering force is not thirteen percent black, or an

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Speaker 3: elite law firm doesn't have thirteen percent black partners, the

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Speaker 3: only allowable explanation at present is racism, and when that

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Speaker 3: holds the left winds, it is all coming down. Disparate

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Speaker 3: impact is the idea that any kind of meritocratic standard

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Speaker 3: that has a negative effect on preferred favorite victim groups

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Speaker 3: is by definition racist. So we saw disparate impact working

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Speaker 3: decades ago. It began overwhelmingly in sort of blue collar jobs,

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Speaker 3: where if a written exam to become a police officer

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Speaker 3: or a firefighter, if blacks were not passing the exam

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Speaker 3: at the same rate as whites, and this exam is

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Speaker 3: completely color blind, Lisa, it's objective. It's not graded by

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Speaker 3: some racist cop, it's graded by a computer. And these

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Speaker 3: exams would be at a very low level of elementary

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Speaker 3: school reading skills and math skills. But in order to test,

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Speaker 3: can a potential policemen read the patrol guide or can

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Speaker 3: a potential firemen understand the chemical instructions on using different

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Speaker 3: chemist chemicals to fight fires.

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Speaker 4: If Blacks were not passing that.

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Speaker 3: Test at an equal rate, then the test has to

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Speaker 3: throw out be thrown out. The idea is the test

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Speaker 3: has a disparate impact, bad bad test.

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Speaker 4: We're going to blame the test. And now we're doing

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Speaker 4: the same thing. We're getting rid of SATs, we're getting.

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Speaker 3: Rid of law school admissions tests. There's a big pressure

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Speaker 3: on to get rid of the medical college admission test.

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Speaker 4: We're getting rid of grading in medical.

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Speaker 3: Licensing exams because Blacks don't do as well. So disparate

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Speaker 3: impact is being used to take down every meritocratic standard.

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Speaker 3: And it also explains if you're looking around your world

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Speaker 3: for the last two three years since George Floyd, and

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Speaker 3: you're saying, my god, what's going on with the criminal

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Speaker 3: justice system. Why aren't these prosecutors prosecuting theft and shoplifting

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Speaker 3: and resisting a rest and disorderly conduct and gun possession

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Speaker 3: and drug possession. Why are they throwing out all these

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Speaker 3: cases and just saying go free, disparate impact another that's

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Speaker 3: the reason again, because it turns out that if you

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Speaker 3: enforce the criminal law in a colorblind, neutral, constitutional manner,

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Speaker 3: you will have a negative disparate effect on black criminals.

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Speaker 3: And we have decided as a society that we would

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Speaker 3: rather not enforce the law and allow criminals back on

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Speaker 3: the street to pray overwhelmingly on minority victims than to

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Speaker 3: enforce the law in a legal manner and have a

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Speaker 3: disparate impact and have a disproportionate number of blacks in prison.

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Speaker 2: What drove this or when did you start saying it

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Speaker 2: take hold of a versus society.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've been watching the attack on merit and the

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Speaker 3: idea that any kind of standard is racist for decades.

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Speaker 3: But things really got insane. They got at a sort

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Speaker 3: of psychotic breakdown, George Floyd, And that's when you had

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Speaker 3: every single important institution in this country, whether it's the

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Speaker 3: of science, of medicine, the arts, music, theater, basic functions

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Speaker 3: of government, all standing up and saying we are by

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Speaker 3: definition racist because we have too many whites in our organization.

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Speaker 3: The history of art is racist because European art is

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Speaker 3: predominantly white.

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Speaker 4: Well, guess what.

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Speaker 3: That's what the demographics were. There was not discrimination going

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Speaker 3: on against black classical music composers in the eighteenth century because.

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Speaker 4: There were none.

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Speaker 3: But right now, all you need to do to take

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Speaker 3: down an institution or an individual is to say it's

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Speaker 3: too white.

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Speaker 4: The New York.

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Speaker 3: Times will routinely, if it wants to discredit a judge

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Speaker 3: or a prosecutor or a police officer, it will say

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Speaker 3: a white judge. Here's a rule of thumb. If the

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Speaker 3: race of a criminal is not identified, it's a black criminal,

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Speaker 3: because if it's a white criminal, the New York Times

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Speaker 3: at CNN will tell you it's a white criminal.

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Speaker 4: To be white today is to be at the bottom.

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Speaker 3: To be a white male, a straight white male, is

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Speaker 3: to be at the absolute bottom of the totem pole.

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Speaker 3: The reality today is not white privilege.

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Speaker 4: It's black privilege. If there's a privilege, it's family privilege.

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Speaker 3: But if you want to get your child into a

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Speaker 3: selective school, hope that he is a underrepresented minority, and

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Speaker 3: if he's a white male, you can kind of forget

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, how hard would it be for a white

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Speaker 2: male to get into college these days?

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Speaker 4: It's very hard.

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Speaker 3: I mean I got a friend sent me a notice

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Speaker 3: he'd gotten from a friend. My friend teaches criminology at

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Speaker 3: a military academy, about his daughter who has perfect SATs.

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Speaker 4: You have sixteen hundred SATs.

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Speaker 3: Perfect National Merit scholar, you know, a plus on every

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Speaker 3: single AP course under the sun Honor Society's athlete. She's

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Speaker 3: been waitlisted at every school she applied to because she's white.

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Speaker 3: Being female doesn't even get her over the bar. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: every school, every single selective college, employs vast racial preferences.

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Speaker 3: It admits black and Hispanic students with SAT scores and

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Speaker 3: GPAs that are so low that they would be automatically

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Speaker 3: disqualifying if presented by whites and Asians.

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Speaker 4: But they're brought in, and these.

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Speaker 3: Racial preferences do their beneficiaries. Alleged beneficiary is no good whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: You're putting students up.

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Speaker 3: To fail, if you're catapulting them into a college for

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Speaker 3: which they're not competitively prepared. Black students should go to

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Speaker 3: college on the same terms as everybody else, which is

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Speaker 3: with peers that share their academic qualifications.

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Speaker 4: It's cruel to put somebody.

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Speaker 3: If Mit admitted me with six hundreds on my math

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Speaker 3: SATs and all my peers had eight hundred, in other words,

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Speaker 3: a perfect score on the math SATs, and MIT said, oh,

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Speaker 3: we have to have more females, We need more gender diversity.

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Speaker 3: So it brings me in, what's going to happen to

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Speaker 3: me my first year? I Am going to fail calculus

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Speaker 3: because the teaching is pitched to my peers who had

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Speaker 3: eight hundreds.

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Speaker 4: They had perfect math scores.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's what happens to black students that are admitted

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Speaker 3: to selective colleges. They end up switching out of STEM majors,

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Speaker 3: they end up at the bottom of their class. The

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Speaker 3: law school data is utterly horrific. Black law students, you know,

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Speaker 3: the vast majority end up at the bottom tenth of

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Speaker 3: their classes. This is after neutral, color, blind, objective, non

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Speaker 3: human graded tests. So we are watering down the caliber

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Speaker 3: of our institutions. Medical schools are admitting students on the

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Speaker 3: basis of race, not merit. They're promoting doctors on the

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Speaker 3: basis of race not merit. Same as happening in engineering schools.

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Speaker 4: We are playing with fire.

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Speaker 2: Lisa, Well, I'm awful at math, so you know, God

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Speaker 2: helpt if they admitted me, and then and every and

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Speaker 2: every teacher I would come across, so it would be

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Speaker 2: it would be a headache for all involved.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but these days, you know, you cannot be sure

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Speaker 3: that you're not going to be chosen to had some

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Speaker 3: mathematics counsel because you're a female.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's what's going on math. You know, the American.

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Speaker 3: Association of Math Society is is always saying, oh, we're

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Speaker 3: racist and we're sexist, and so I mean, I've been chosen.

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Speaker 3: I was asked to be on some Fox Nation program

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Speaker 3: on interest rates and I said, what, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I think about instruments. Am I a gender quota for

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Speaker 3: you guys?

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Speaker 4: And they basically said yes. So it happens constantly.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick commercial break more with Heather MacDonald

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Speaker 2: about when race Trump's merit. I mean, of course there's

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Speaker 2: an impact to tell all of this, right, I mean

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Speaker 2: we're talking about a lot of jobs, like the medical

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Speaker 2: profession or engineering. I mean, so if you look at

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Speaker 2: these professions where competency is critical to preserving life, what

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Speaker 2: impact does this have? If we're leading people to posicians

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Speaker 2: who aren't qualified.

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Speaker 3: It's going to eventually put lives at risk for sure.

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Speaker 3: What's happening right now? Is it slowing down research? You

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Speaker 3: have the federal science agencies that are telling labs you

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Speaker 3: should hire if you're in Alzheimer's lab, you should not

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Speaker 3: hire the most qualified scientists if they're white and Asian.

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Speaker 3: You should hire on.

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Speaker 4: The basis of diversity.

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Speaker 3: Well, given the academic skills gaps. And you know, this

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Speaker 3: is what I do here is actually give readers the

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Speaker 3: data about why it is that diversity is at this

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Speaker 3: point incompatible with meritocracy. You can have diversity or you

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Speaker 3: can have meritocracy. You cannot have both. Here's the facts, Lisa.

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Speaker 3: Sixty six percent of black twelfth graders do not even

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Speaker 3: possess partial mastery of twelfth grade math skills. What's a

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Speaker 3: twelfth grade math skill being able to do an arithmetical

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Speaker 3: calculation or being able to recognize the linear function on

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Speaker 3: a graph. Sixty six percent of black twelfth graders cannot

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Speaker 3: even do partially arithmetical calculations.

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Speaker 4: Only seven percent.

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Speaker 3: Of black twelfth graders are competent in those skills. In

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Speaker 3: other words, they can perform them, and the number who

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Speaker 3: are advanced is so small to not even show up statistically.

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Speaker 3: This is based on the National Association National Assessment of

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Speaker 3: Education Progress. So it's got tens of thousands of students

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Speaker 3: taking these exams. But we have decided, even though there

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Speaker 3: we've got these massive academic skills gaps, that the only

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Speaker 3: allowable explanation for the lack of thirteen percent black physicists

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Speaker 3: at MIT or Harvard or cal Tech, or thirteen percent

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Speaker 3: black cancer researchers at the University of Pennsylvania or Mass

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Speaker 3: General is racism.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not.

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Speaker 3: The reason is the academic skills gap.

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Speaker 4: But we have the federal.

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Speaker 3: Agencies now, the National Institutes of Health, national Science Foundation,

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Speaker 3: telling labs you must have proportional representation in your lab

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Speaker 3: or you ain't getting any more federal money. So we

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Speaker 3: have decided that diversity is more important than medical progress,

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Speaker 3: curing cancer or curing Alzheimer's disease.

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Speaker 1: You talk in your book, you're right.

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Speaker 2: The reality remains that a dysfunctional inner city culture is

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Speaker 2: hindering black progress. You just talked about the skills gap

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Speaker 2: that is happening. You had mentioned some of those scores

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Speaker 2: where you know, unfortunately black students are being left behind.

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Speaker 1: So what do we do about that?

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Speaker 2: You know, talk a little bit about this dysfunctional inner

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Speaker 2: city culture and what we can do to help You

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Speaker 2: know where zip code, for instance, does it determine a

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Speaker 2: child's future.

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Speaker 4: You know what I'm going to be really really stark

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Speaker 4: and bleak here. There's what we can do is less.

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Speaker 4: The culture has to heal itself.

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Speaker 3: There has to be an This is on academic achievement.

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Speaker 3: You have this pervasive view that to study hard, to

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Speaker 3: care about your studies and exams is acting white. So

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Speaker 3: black students who do take their homework home and do

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Speaker 3: it and are not truant, they're criticized for acting white.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing that anybody else can do to fix that.

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Speaker 3: The students have to study. You can't come from the

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Speaker 3: outside and put that knowledge into students' heads. Parents have

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Speaker 3: to take responsibility for their children. If every black family

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Speaker 3: acted like an Asian family with regards to academic achievements

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Speaker 3: and effort, and after ten or fifteen years we still

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Speaker 3: saw racial disparities, then I'm going to contemplate that it

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Speaker 3: may be systemic racism. But right now, when the behavioral

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Speaker 3: disparities are so great, when the behavior that you see

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Speaker 3: in inner city classrooms is so talentter productive, the reason

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Speaker 3: that black kids are disciplined more. It's not teacher racism,

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Speaker 3: as Barack Obama claimed, and as Joe Biden claims, it's because.

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Speaker 4: They are acting out.

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Speaker 3: More Black teenagers males between the ages of fourteen and

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Speaker 3: seventeen commit gun homicide at least at ten times the

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Speaker 3: rate of white and Hispanic male teens in those ages combined,

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Speaker 3: at least.

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Speaker 4: And then we think that, well, if.

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Speaker 3: Those same teens that are gangbanging, we expect that they're

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Speaker 3: being docile and obedient in classroom. And the only reason

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Speaker 3: that explains the higher discipline rate is teacher racism. It's preposterous. No,

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Speaker 3: I've seen these classrooms.

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Speaker 4: They are chaotic, and then the.

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Speaker 3: Teachers are told, you can't impose discipline because that has

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Speaker 3: a desperate impact. Another key disparate impact theme. You can't

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Speaker 3: impose those expulsions or suspensions because it has a disparate

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Speaker 3: impact on unruly black students. So the first thing that

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Speaker 3: has to happen is a cultural change. Yes, there's things

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Speaker 3: that the rest of society have been trying for years,

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Speaker 3: whether it's the conservative recipes of vouchers and charter schools.

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Speaker 3: I would say schools should be relentlessly insistent on complete

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Speaker 3: self control, no excuses for bad behavior, no excuses for

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Speaker 3: you just ignoring exams for being truant.

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Speaker 4: The left would say we need more spending.

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Speaker 3: That's quite questionable given that many inner city schools on

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Speaker 3: a per capita basis are funded at much higher rates

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Speaker 3: than any other schools. The money is not the problem.

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Speaker 3: The problem is the lack of a culture of academic achievements.

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Speaker 2: So do you think any sort of bring you just

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Speaker 2: laying out the break down that's happening in schools, So

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Speaker 2: do you think you know, obviously many of those of

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Speaker 2: those a's and the right, you know, support school choice,

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Speaker 2: So do.

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Speaker 1: You think that would have an impact?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I agree with you that parents are the

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Speaker 2: most important thing in a child's life.

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Speaker 1: But you know, would school choice help well, I.

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Speaker 4: Think the data is kind of mixed.

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Speaker 3: Uh, I'm betraying my conservative policy want colleagues here. But

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Speaker 3: certainly every parent that does want a stricter environment for.

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Speaker 4: His child should have that option. But it's not always clear.

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Speaker 3: You know that that inner city voters are voting for

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Speaker 3: politicians that are promising these I mean, I think we've

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Speaker 3: got a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Of a whitewash going on. We saw this as well

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Speaker 4: with crime, with.

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Speaker 3: The Chicago neighborhoods that had the highest crime rates were

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Speaker 3: the also ones that voted most for the anti police

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Speaker 3: mayoral candidate Brandon Johnson in the recent Chicago mayoral election runoff,

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Speaker 3: putting a somebody who believes that the police are racists

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Speaker 3: in the mayoralty.

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Speaker 4: This is a total disaster.

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Speaker 3: So yes, it would help, but I think that the

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Speaker 3: real problem again is culture, and you've got to have

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Speaker 3: black leaders getting up there and saying, don't use the

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Speaker 3: excuse of racism. You have efficacy, you have power, you

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Speaker 3: have agency. And I am a supporter of what used

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Speaker 3: to be called the no excuses charter schools, and you know.

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Speaker 4: They've gone left as well.

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Speaker 3: The insanity of this, you know, race trumping merit idea

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Speaker 3: has has even poisoned some of the best charter schools

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Speaker 3: and networks like KIP. This is an acronym k i

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Speaker 3: PP that was founded by these two white civil rights

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Speaker 3: activists and it had It was one of these no

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Speaker 3: excuse of schools that every every everything a child did

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Speaker 3: basically during the day was scripted.

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Speaker 4: They had to the students have.

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Speaker 3: To walk in line, the teachers have a very strictly

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Speaker 3: regulated way of teaching, and they're basically trying to inculcate

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Speaker 3: the self control and deferred gratification that these kids are

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Speaker 3: not getting at home in these chaotic inner city homes,

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Speaker 3: and to give them the ability to have the virtues,

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Speaker 3: the bourgeois virtues of self control that will allow them

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Speaker 3: to hold a job. So KIP was a good leader

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Speaker 3: in this well.

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Speaker 4: After George Floyd.

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Speaker 3: They decided to retire their motto, which was work hard,

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Speaker 3: be nice, because they thought that embodied white supremacist values.

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Speaker 3: So another example of an institution that would rather flagellate

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Speaker 3: itself for phantom racism. KIP was not a racist institution.

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Speaker 3: It was founded on the hope of racial equality. And

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Speaker 3: yet all of white America melted down and decided that

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Speaker 3: it was the problem and that it would not have

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Speaker 3: any expectations of good law abiding, you know, self disciplined

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Speaker 3: behavior on the part of blacks.

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Speaker 2: That's concerning to hear, you know, And it's always interesting

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Speaker 2: to get different perspectives on the issue because that's how

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Speaker 2: you learn, you know, getting different opinions, and you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of just having those conversations you had mentioned Obama

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Speaker 2: and Biden, you know, two people who are really intentionally

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Speaker 2: trying to drive racial divisions in the country. You know

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Speaker 2: what do they get from that? You know, what do

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Speaker 2: they get from from driving this this equity stuff.

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Speaker 3: Self respect, self love? You know, they view themselves as

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Speaker 3: superior to these yahoo maga hat wearing red state Americans,

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Speaker 3: and so it's just an incredible infusion of virtue they feel.

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Speaker 3: You know, the biggest virtue in America today is to

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Speaker 3: be anti racist. Uh, nothing else really matters.

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Speaker 4: You know, being a good parent.

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Speaker 3: Raising law abiding children, staying married, accomplishing you know what,

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Speaker 3: learning to the up most of your capacity.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't really get rewarded, but being anti racist does.

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Speaker 3: So they get acclaim and plaudits from the mainstream media

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Speaker 3: and from academia. But it is they are parasites on

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Speaker 3: a civilization that did value excellence and that believe that

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Speaker 3: human beings should not be limited by by the trivialities

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Speaker 3: of identity. Now, I am not going to pay over

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Speaker 3: America's horrible history.

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Speaker 4: It's just sickening.

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Speaker 3: Hypocrisy that the centuries of gratuitous cruelty towards blacks. I mean,

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Speaker 3: one wonders you know, who were these Southerners? They were

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Speaker 3: absolutely insane in their hatreds and nastiness, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of the North was for very long as well. So

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Speaker 3: that is a reality, and it undercuts any facile conservative

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Speaker 3: narrative about America being founded on equality. It was not.

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Speaker 4: We were a white supremacist state.

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Speaker 3: I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that, and it breaks

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Speaker 3: my heart for our treatment of blacks for so long.

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Speaker 3: But I can also say that that is not our

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Speaker 3: reality today.

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Speaker 4: It is not.

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Speaker 3: There is not a single mainstream institution that is not

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Speaker 3: twisting itself into to hire and promote as many blacks

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Speaker 3: as possible. They are not facing discrimination from a single

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Speaker 3: mainstream institution. And to continue making that as the predominant

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Speaker 3: explanation means that we will continue tearing down our civilizational

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Speaker 3: meritocratic standards for disparate impact, when the problem is not

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Speaker 3: the standards. We have to stop tearing down the standards, because,

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Speaker 3: as you say, Lisa, it's going to put it's going

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Speaker 3: to put lives at risk when we are qualifying incompetent doctors,

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Speaker 3: when we're putting incompetent pilots and cockpits, when we're having

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Speaker 3: bridges built by people who were preference beneficiaries, and we

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Speaker 3: are also destroying the greatest works of art. We are

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Speaker 3: teaching young people to see the traditions of music and

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Speaker 3: art and theater through the trivializing lens of rape and

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Speaker 3: sex oppression, a lens that in almost all cases is

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Speaker 3: completely irrelevant.

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Speaker 2: Quick commercial break more with Heather on her new book

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Speaker 2: When Race Trump's Merit. You know what, it also scares

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Speaker 2: me because you look at some of these airlines too,

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Speaker 2: who are saying that you know, they're going to focus on,

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Speaker 2: you know, diversity in the hiring. You know, we're going

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Speaker 2: to meet this fifty percent quote of the five thousand

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Speaker 2: pilots it trains or the company trains in the next

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Speaker 2: decade or whatever to be women or color or when

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Speaker 2: I think most people are like, I just want.

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Speaker 1: To get home safely.

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Speaker 2: You know, I fly a lot, and so that's a

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Speaker 2: concern of mine as well, of these airlines hiring people

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Speaker 2: on the basis of meeting quotas as opposed to just

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Speaker 2: hiring people who can get me safely.

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Speaker 1: To point A to point B.

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Speaker 2: You know, the left has moved from a quality to equity,

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Speaker 2: you know, talk about that transition.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a long time since we've had any

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Speaker 3: sort of common sense.

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Speaker 4: Idea of equality.

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Speaker 3: I think certainly the great civil rights heroes of the

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifties nineteen forties, they were thinking in terms of.

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Speaker 4: Equality and wanted to remove.

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Speaker 3: The horrific strictures that blacks were facing in both the

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Speaker 3: South and the North. But even in the sixties, with

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Speaker 3: the Civil Rights Acts, there were already little glimmers that

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Speaker 3: this was going to move more very quickly into quotas

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Speaker 3: and looking at equality of outcomes. And the problem with

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Speaker 3: that is if the only reason anybody talks about this

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Speaker 3: is because of the racial skills gaps and the crime gaps.

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Speaker 3: If those gaps didn't exist, we wouldn't have this problem.

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Speaker 4: And yet we've got.

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Speaker 3: These solutions that mean that we can't even look at

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Speaker 3: those gaps.

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Speaker 4: So the only reason.

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Speaker 3: And we have all these colleges talking about diversity is

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Speaker 3: because if they admitted students on a color blind basis,

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Speaker 3: on the basis of academic preparation, they wouldn't be in

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Speaker 3: certain instances. But it gets complicated because you'd have a

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Speaker 3: cascading effect. Eventually you'd have the same you would have

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Speaker 3: the same number of blacks going to college black should

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Speaker 3: go to college that you shouldn't go to colleges that

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Speaker 3: they're not prepared for.

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Speaker 4: They should go to.

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Speaker 3: Like if you're a white male and you're admitted to

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Speaker 3: Boston College, you're going to be prepared for Boston College,

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Speaker 3: you know, if they even dained to let you in.

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Speaker 3: If you have those same qualifications and you're black male,

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Speaker 3: you'll be admitted to Harvard. But you're not prepared for Harvard,

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Speaker 3: but you are prepared for Boston College.

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Speaker 4: So go to Boston College. It's not the end of

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Speaker 4: the world, you know. The elitism in this discourse.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, it became very quickly not about equality. It

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Speaker 3: became about outcomes and lowering standards, double standards everywhere.

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Speaker 4: And as I say, we are.

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Speaker 3: Playing with fire, and we need to have an alternative explanation.

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Speaker 3: As I say, the only explanation now, all the New

435
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 3: York Times needs to do is look at this law

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Speaker 3: firm or that bank, or this cancer lab or that

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00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 3: engineering department or architectural firm, and do the counting and

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Speaker 3: the being counting.

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Speaker 4: And if it's not.

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Speaker 3: Racially proportionate racist left, no, it is impossible to be

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Speaker 3: proportionally diverse and meritocratic at the same time, you can't

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Speaker 3: have both because of the skills gaps.

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Speaker 4: And you've got to know this data, and we have

444
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 4: to be prepared to start.

445
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 3: Fighting back against the left's discourse because we are losing

446
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 3: things very fast, Lisa, well, and.

447
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: We're losing the country, you know, I mean equity of course,

448
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: as a race to the bottom, and all those different

449
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 2: institutions you had mentioned, and you know, these professions that

450
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: you had mentioned, they're going to decrease in their ability

451
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: to function, and as a society, we're going to decrease

452
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: our ability to function on just a basic level. I

453
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: think we're really already staying it really over these past

454
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: couple of years of how quickly things can take a

455
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 2: downward turn, you know, and a lot of this conversation,

456
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: you would think that, okay, it's common sense, let's just

457
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: hire the best people, let's hire you know, people on meritocracy.

458
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: But somehow we don't function anymore on what makes sense

459
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: as a society. So I guess when did we lose

460
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: our ability to reason? Why did we lose it? Is

461
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: is it social media? Or what has led us to

462
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: this point today where we no longer we no longer

463
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: rely on you know, common sense and reason in making determinations.

464
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: Well, I think a lot in our world today it's

465
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: all about race, and whites are very guilty. I mean,

466
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 3: Shelby Steele was writing about this long ago of this dysfunctional,

467
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 3: codependent relationship between white guilt and black victimhood, and nobody

468
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: wants to They're terrified that the racial skills gaps are

469
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: not going to close, and they don't want so. The

470
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: only allowable explanation for that white sort of preemptively say, Okay,

471
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 3: it's got to be racism. Got to be racism. And

472
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: so that's our problem is we turn our eyes away

473
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: from something that is very ugly.

474
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 4: Which is this inner city culture.

475
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: You know, right now, black juveniles are dying of gun

476
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: homicide at one hundred times the rate of whites. That's

477
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 3: a civil rights problem. It's not one that the activists

478
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 3: want to talk about, because the reason that black juvenile

479
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: are getting killed in gun homicide at one hundred times

480
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: the rate is because they're committing gun homicide and as

481
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 3: juveniles at that rate. This is post George Floyd. I

482
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 3: gave you before the ten time number. Post George Floyd,

483
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: things have gotten even worse. These drive by shootings are

484
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: absolutely barbaric.

485
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 4: You have these teens sprang.

486
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 3: Bullets across sidewalks, not caring whom they hit.

487
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 4: If this was.

488
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: Happening to white kids, there'd be a revolution. But because

489
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 3: it's blacks that are being mowed down, nobody wants to

490
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: talk about it. Because it's blacks who were mowing them down.

491
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 3: Dozens of blacks are killed every day in homicide. That's

492
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: more than all white and Hispanic homicide victims combined. Nobody

493
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: hears about them. So we're scared about that, And so

494
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: meanwhile we're saying, oh, we've got to get rid of

495
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: our gifted and talented programs. You know, if you have

496
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: a child who is a absolute gifted in math, and

497
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: you want to put him in a program that will

498
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 3: allow him to maximize his talent and be the greatest

499
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 3: mathematician or nuclear physicist he could possibly be, you're going

500
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: to have very few options now because we're closing down

501
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: gifted and talented programs because they have what's the answer,

502
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: disparate impact. Any kind of exam that tests academic skills

503
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 3: has a disparate impact on blacks.

504
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: So we've decided.

505
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 3: We're just going to get rid of the program. We're

506
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: going to get rid of the standard. We blame the standards,

507
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 3: We don't blame the skills gaps. Meanwhile, China is taking

508
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 3: its most mathematically competent talent and throwing everything it's got

509
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: at them. It's accelerating them, it's giving them intense mathematics

510
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 3: education because.

511
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 4: It knows that this is war.

512
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 3: They are in a technological war with the US, and

513
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 3: they are already beating us in many nanotechnologies. As we're

514
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 3: sitting there dithering about whether mathematics is white supremacist, ablest,

515
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: you know, misogynist, the Chinese are just saying, give it

516
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 3: to me, you know, let me master this, and we're

517
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: saying mastery is itself a form of white supremacy.

518
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: Well, I almost wonder, you know, if some of this

519
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: is being driven by China when you look at things

520
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: like TikTok and the fact that you know it is

521
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: a Chinese company, which I think TikTok's done an incredible

522
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: amount of damage to young people and sort of a

523
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: brainwashing effect.

524
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: You know, did anything surprise you?

525
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: Obviously, you do a ton of research and writing these books,

526
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: and New York Times bestselling author in writing this and

527
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 2: in doing research, is there anything that surprised you in

528
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: the process.

529
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: What surprised me was the willingness of the leaders of

530
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: great traditions to completely cancel their own traditions.

531
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: I would that somebody.

532
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: That runs a classical music organization, an orchestra, or an

533
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 3: opera company, or a great art museum like the Metropolitan

534
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 3: Museum of Art or the Art Institute of Chicago, would

535
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: feel so privileged to be in the position to curate

536
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: this legacy, the civilizational legacy, and would say to young people,

537
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 3: come and listen to my art, see my art. This

538
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: is a form of sublimity. It will take you out

539
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: of your narrow, petty self. And instead what I have seen, especially.

540
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 4: Post George Floyd, is leaders.

541
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: Of arts organizations, of medical schools, of physics, of art museum.

542
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: They are all turning on their own tradition and blaming

543
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 3: it for phantom racism. I cannot begin to understand that

544
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: these are people who, in many cases have given their

545
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: lives to sting or tradition, whether it's in physics or music,

546
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 3: and they would rather throw completely fictional, lying accusations of

547
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 3: racism at their own tradition than stand up and defend

548
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 3: it before we go.

549
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: What do you hope people take away from this book

550
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: when race strump's merit.

551
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 3: The courage not to apologize, the courage not to back down,

552
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 3: the courage to have our alternative explanations for lack of

553
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: racial proportionality, The understanding that Western civilization has nothing to

554
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: apologize for. There is no civilization that was less equal

555
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: than ours or more excuse me, more equal than ours,

556
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 3: that cared more about equal rights and ours. The concepts

557
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: that the left uses against the West, our Western concepts colonialism, slavery, predation,

558
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: marginalization of the other. Every other civilization has done those

559
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 3: things that the West blames itself forth in much greater degree. Yes,

560
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 3: we did engage in slavery when the rest of the

561
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 3: world was engaging in slavery, when Africa was engaging in.

562
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 4: Slavery of its own peoples. We have we have hurt people,

563
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 4: We have extremity people. Yes, we have, so is everybody else.

564
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 3: But we have also given the world science, medicine, prosperity,

565
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 3: freedom from hunger, equality, representative government. These are all Western concepts.

566
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 3: We have to stop apologizing.

567
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: Heather, I always learned so much from you. I really

568
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,919
Speaker 2: appreciate you taking the time. Everybody go check out when

569
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: Race Trump's Mara an important conversation to have the Thank

570
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: you for bringing this conversation to the forefront, and thank

571
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: you for being so fearless and what you do well.

572
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 3: Thank you for giving me a voice with yours, Lisa,

573
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 3: I greatly appreciate it.

574
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 2: Those Heather MacDonald. I appreciate her joining the show. She's

575
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 2: so smart, she does so much research. I always learn

576
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: so much from her when I have her on the show,

577
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 2: so I appreciate her time. I want to thank you

578
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: guys at home for listening to the show every Monday

579
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 2: and Thursday, but of course you can listen to it

580
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 2: whenever you want. Please leave us a review, give us

581
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: a rating on Apple Podcast. I want to thank John

582
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: Cassio and my producer for putting the show together.

583
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: Until next time,