1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: and Mild from aarin Manki listener Discretion advised. Curled inside 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: the empty spare tire compartment inside the trunk of an Audi, 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: beneath several blue bags of heavy Ikia furniture, a thirty 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: two year old woman named Litifa held her breath. She 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: was attempting to sneak across the border from the United 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: Arab Emirates to Oman, where hopefully she would make it 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: onto the boat that would bring her to international waters, 9 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: where she hoped she would be free. Litifah's full name 10 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: was Sheikha Latifah bint Muhammad bin Rashid al Muktum, and 11 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: she was the daughter of the ruling Emir of Dubai, 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: Sheikh Mohammed. For years, Latifah had been studying and cultivating 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: relatelationships with people who could help her escape her repressive home. 14 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: She even trained in extreme sports so that she would 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: be ready for whatever she needed to do. That was 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: how Latifah had met a woman named Tina Yahayanen, a 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: Finnish woman living in Dubai, who gave Latifah private capuera lessons. 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: Tina was the one driving the Audi across the border. 19 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: She would stay with Latifa every step on the journey 20 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: to freedom. Thankfully, a guard waved the car across the 21 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: border into Oman without looking in the spare tire compartment. 22 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: But the journey was far from over. Latifa had made 23 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: arrangements for a yacht that could bring them to India, where, hopefully, 24 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: with the help of a fake passport, she could fly 25 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: to the United States and claim asylum. But first she 26 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 1: needed to get sixteen miles off shore to meet the yacht. 27 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: There was another contact who gave Latifa and Tina a 28 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: ride in his dinghy, and though a storm pressed toward 29 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: them on the horizon and locals warned the man not 30 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: to go out in his small boat, Latifa had come 31 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: too far to turn back. Their tiny boat pressed forward 32 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: through violent waves, but still it couldn't make it all 33 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: the way to the yacht, and so Latifah's next contact, 34 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: a former French naval officer who had once escaped Dubai himself, 35 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: where he was charged with embezzlement, rowed from the yacht 36 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: with another crew member to the dinghy on jet skis. 37 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: Latifa and Tina both fell into the water several times, 38 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: but eventually they managed to make it onto the back 39 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: of the jet skis and then safely to the yacht. 40 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: The yacht was filthy and teeming with cockroaches, but they 41 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: were finally in international waters, and when Latifah slept on 42 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: the deck, she could see the stars. But freedom wouldn't 43 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: last long. They noticed a ship was trailing them when 44 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: they were about thirty miles off the coast of India. 45 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: The next night, Latifa heard gunshots and boots on the deck. 46 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: Commandos tied Latifa up and injected her with tranquilizers before 47 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: flying her back to the place She had already risked 48 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: everything to try to escape. But that wouldn't be the 49 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: end of Latifah's story. She had already risked everything to 50 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: try to get away, and now she wanted the world 51 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: to know what she was going through. Latifa's escape attempt 52 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: and its aftermath received international attention when it occurred in 53 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. I'm thrilled to be talking with New Yorker 54 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: staff writer Heidi Blake, who wrote about Latifah and an 55 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: incredible article in May of twenty twenty three, and who's 56 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: revisited the story and the story of other royal women 57 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: who have attempted to escape the restrictive lives they were 58 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: born into in the UAE. For The New Yorker's narrative 59 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: podcast series The Runaway Princesses. I'm Dana Schwartz and this 60 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: is Noble Blood. 61 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: Heidi. Thank you so much for being here. 62 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. 63 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 2: I thought your piece last spring in The New Yorker 64 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 2: was just so extraordinary, and you've continued writing about Latifa 65 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 2: and the women like her. But before we get into 66 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: Latifah's twenty eighteen escape attempt, can we go back a 67 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 2: little bit and can you just tell me a bit 68 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: Latifa's father is Sheikh Mohammed? What sort of power does 69 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: he have? What sort of his political position in the 70 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: United Arab Emirates. 71 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 3: See Shee Muhammad is the ruler of Dubai and he's 72 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 3: also the Prime Minister of the United Arab Emirates, which 73 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 3: is a a major strategic ally to Western governments. And 74 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 3: so Checke Muhammad is in this interesting position because he 75 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: wields absolute power at home and he also has a 76 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 3: huge amount of power and influence on the world stage. 77 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: And you know, he's a big ally of the US 78 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: and of the UK. He's actually in the In the UK, 79 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 3: he's Britain's biggest private landowner. He's the owner of the 80 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: world's biggest thoroughbred race horsing team, which in the UK 81 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: is a big deal because the late Queen of England 82 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 3: was a huge horse racing fan, and he had cultivated 83 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: this very valuable friendship with her through their shared love 84 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 3: of horse racing, and so those things really play out 85 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 3: in this story that he has this extraordinary degree of 86 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 3: power and influence around the world and particularly in the 87 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: UK as well as inside Dubai. 88 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: It seems like in recent years the United Arab Emirates 89 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: has sort of been making a public push saying that 90 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: they're advocating for the right of women. Can you tell 91 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: us a little bit though, about what the conditions are 92 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: for women, some of the truth to that sort of 93 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: pr blit and then what the conditions were for royal women. 94 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely right, And it's one of the things 95 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 3: about the story that I sort of found most striking 96 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 3: really is that Chap Muhammad has been at pains to 97 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 3: position himself on the world stage as a champion of 98 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 3: women's rights within the Middle East. He's bowed to remove 99 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 3: all of the hurdles that women face in the UAE, 100 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: and he's passed a number of seemingly progressive laws guaranteeing women, 101 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 3: for example, equal pay for equal work. He's appointed nine 102 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 3: women to cabinet positions in the UAE's government, and many 103 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 3: of those initiatives are spearheaded by one of his daughters. 104 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 3: And so he has actually kind of wheeled out his 105 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: own female family members as sort of emblems of his 106 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 3: commitment to female advancement, and that has won him a 107 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 3: lot of claudits in the West. He's been sort of 108 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: praised for his for his progressive stance. But actually, what 109 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 3: I found when I began to report on this is 110 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 3: that women in Dubai's royal family occupy this sort of 111 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: possible dual role where they're on the one hand, held 112 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 3: up as sort of symbols of Shake Muhammad's, you know, 113 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 3: great beneficence towards women, but actually also are expected to 114 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 3: occupy very tightly defined roles and if they step outside 115 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: of that, they can be brutally punished. And the sort 116 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: of importance for Shake Muhammad in maintaining the sort of 117 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: illusion of absolute power is it's essential to him basically 118 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 3: to make sure that women in his family do not 119 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 3: step out of line, are not seen to be challenging 120 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: his authority, and it's sort of politically dangerous for him 121 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: if that is the case. And so when women have 122 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: challenged him, the consequences for them have been absolutely dire. 123 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: One detail, just early on in your piece, almost as coloring, 124 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: but that I found so incredibly striking was that Latifa 125 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: was when she was an infant, was given to another 126 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: of Schik Muhammad's wives sort of as a gift, as 127 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: an offering, almost to raise. 128 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's extraordinary. I mean, Chickmuhammad has six wives and 129 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 3: around thirty children, and it's kind of fascinating the way 130 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 3: that these kids were almost sort of a commodity. And 131 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: so Latifa and her brother were both removed from their 132 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: natural mother as infants and given as a gift to 133 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 3: shake Muhammad's childless sister, who by Latifa's account, because you know, 134 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: I sort of pieced this together from Latifa's own writings 135 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: over the course of about a decade, where she really 136 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: documented what her early life had been like. By her description, 137 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: her aunt sort of almost collected stray children in her palace, 138 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: and so Latifa was raised among dozens of other kids 139 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: who her aunt seemed to sort of want to own, 140 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 3: but then who were kept confined to their bedrooms and 141 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 3: not able to go out and to play and lived 142 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 3: really very sort of miserable and straightened lives. And she 143 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 3: wrote really movingly about just spending days at the window 144 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 3: kind of watching the world go by outside. And one 145 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: image that just really stuck with me was she wrote 146 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 3: about how she would dream over and over again that 147 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 3: she was flying a kite so huge it would carry 148 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: her into the sky because she was just desperate to 149 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 3: get away, and that was a preoccupation which really defined 150 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 3: most of her childhood and then also her adult life. 151 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: So let's fast forward to Latifah's twenty eighteen escape attempt. 152 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: What were those preparations like for her? Obviously, her father 153 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: has so much power, so it was an incredibly dangerous 154 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: prospect for her. 155 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 3: Right exactly, And she knew what the stakes were because 156 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 3: she'd seen what happened to other women in the royal 157 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: family who tried to escape. So her own sister, Shanza, 158 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 3: twenty years earlier, had tried to run away on a 159 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 3: trip to the UK and had since been captured and 160 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 3: imprisoned and held at the Heavy Sedation in the palace. 161 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 3: Her aunt Bushra had been kidnapped from Britain after antagonizing 162 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 3: Dubai's ruler, and had been brought back to Dubai, where 163 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: she died suspiciously. And so Latifa Is sort of knew 164 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 3: what the risks were. She herself had previously tried to 165 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 3: escape to get help for her sister Shamza, and had 166 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 3: been captured and imprisoned for years and beaten so badly 167 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 3: that all the bones in her feet had been broken 168 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: during prolonged torture sessions. So she knew that the risks 169 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 3: were huge. But she wrote again and again to her 170 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: supporters that she was prepared to countenance death. She was 171 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 3: so determined to get away. She said, it's freedom or 172 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 3: death and nothing in between. So her determination is one 173 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: of the things that's so striking in the sort of 174 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: letters and messages and writings that I got hold of. 175 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: And she actually spent seven years planning her second escape attempt, 176 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 3: and she planned it in extraordinary details. She recruited a 177 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: team to help her, two martial arts instructors and a 178 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: former French naval officer who was to captain the yacht 179 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 3: that she escaped on, and they spent years deliberating over 180 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 3: how she would get out of Dubai and over the 181 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 3: border into Oman, which was where she was going to 182 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: escape onto this yacht. They spent years practicing her doing 183 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 3: an underwater swim using an underwater scooter and a scuba 184 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 3: rebreather to try and get over the border that way, 185 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 3: and ultimately decided that was too risky, and so eventually 186 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 3: they decided to smuggle her over the border into Oman 187 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: in the boot of a car before she used a 188 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 3: dinghy and then jet skis to get onto this yacht 189 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 3: that she used to make her getaway. So yeah, it 190 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 3: was an escape attempt of just extraordinary daring. 191 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: Obviously, as your story tells, when she was about thirty 192 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: miles off the coast of India, commanders stormed the yacht 193 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: and Latifa was captured. What went wrong in this escape. 194 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: Well, I guess there were sort of a variety of 195 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 3: things that led up to Latifa's capture, But ultimately, I 196 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 3: think you sort of realize when you look into this 197 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 3: that when you're up against Shake Muhammad, no one really 198 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: has a chance, and you know, his global power exten 199 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 3: and so widely that really I think sort of you know, 200 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: in retrospect, Latifa's hope that she was going to be 201 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 3: able to get away was pretty fanciful. So her father 202 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 3: had managed to intercept her communications from on board the 203 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 3: yacht and was able to pinpoint exactly where she was. 204 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 3: He'd issued red notices through Interpol, the international policing agency, 205 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: accusing the people who were helping her of having her kidnapped, 206 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 3: to enlist the support of you know, international police forces. 207 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 3: And he had then put in a call to his 208 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 3: friend and ally, the Prime Minister of India and the 209 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 3: Randa Mody, and persuaded Mody to send armed commandos to 210 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 3: storm the yacht off the coast of India and capture 211 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: Latifa in exchange for an arms dealer who was placed 212 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: in Dubai, who Naranda Mody wanted extra dising back to India. 213 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 3: And so this whole kind of deal was stitched up 214 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 3: between two world leaders and Latifa was captured and dragged 215 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: away back to Dubai just around a week after is 216 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: setting off. 217 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: When she was tranquilized and brought back to Dubai, what 218 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: do we know about her treatment. 219 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 3: Well, so she went dark for a long time after 220 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 3: the yacht that she was on was stormed and her 221 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: friends and supporters had no idea what had happened to her. 222 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 3: Her friend Tina just describes seeing Latifa being dragged off 223 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 3: the side of the boat shouting shoot me now, don't 224 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 3: take me back, and then they heard nothing from her 225 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 3: for about a year. Only after a year had gone 226 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 3: by did Latfa supporters get a message from a woman 227 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 3: who was attending to Latifa where she was being held, 228 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: and then they kind of began this extraordinary correspondence where 229 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 3: Latifa was being held in prison but had a secret 230 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: line of communication via this maid back to her friends 231 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 3: who were based in the UK and was able to 232 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: document exactly what had happened to her, and she described 233 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 3: being dragged off this boat, tranquilized, thrown into a desert 234 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 3: prison where she came under concerted pressure to recount a 235 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: testimony that she'd published online accusing her father of all 236 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 3: sorts of crimes during her escape, and to kind of 237 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 3: tell the world that she was fine and that she 238 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: was living freely in Dubai, and that she was not 239 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: you know that she no longer she no longer wished 240 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 3: to leave the country, and she resisted that for years 241 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 3: during this imprisonment, she absolutely refused to cooperate with that. 242 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 3: But you know, eventually, in these these letters and messages 243 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: videos that she was sharing with her supporters, you kind 244 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 3: of see her will power begin to ebb away. She 245 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 3: talks about, you know, how she's being guarded around the clock, 246 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: She's not being allowed to open the window. She feels 247 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: she's dying a very slow death by suffocation. Her father's 248 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: guards are increasingly appearing, accompanied by a psychiatrist who's putting 249 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 3: pressure on her, ramping up the psychological pressure on her 250 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 3: to crack. They're telling her she'll never see the sunlight again. 251 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 3: She lives constantly in fear of being killed by her 252 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 3: father's guards, and I think ultimately you begin to see 253 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: just the cumulative pressure become too much for her to bear. 254 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: In recent years, there have been public appearances of Latifa 255 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: out in the world, and two UN Human Rights Watch 256 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: officials have met with her publicly. How much credence do 257 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: you give to those meetings of the UN? 258 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's I mean, it's interesting. The sort of 259 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 3: the way the story sort of resolved itself in the 260 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: end is that after decades of absolutely refusing to countenance 261 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 3: that she would ever accept a life in Dubay under 262 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 3: her father's control, and you know, saying again and again, 263 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 3: I will never accept that, and I will always be 264 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: imprisoned as long as I'm here, and I will never 265 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 3: be free until I'm outside Dubai. Latifa suddenly lost all 266 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 3: contact with her supporters and then soon after started appearing 267 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: in what appeared to be kind of carefully stage managed 268 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: social media photographs and then ultimately had this, you know, 269 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: these meetings with UN Human Rights officials, and they're sort 270 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 3: of complicated because it happened in two stages. So one 271 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 3: of those took place during her imprisonment. She was photographed 272 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 3: with Mary Robinson, who was the former UN Human Rights 273 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: Commissioner and who released a statement afterwards with photographs of 274 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 3: Latifa and said to the media that Latifa was mentally ill, 275 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: regretted her attempt to escape, and was now safe in 276 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 3: the loving care of her family. Mary Robinson subsequently retracted 277 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 3: that and said she'd been horribly tricked into saying those 278 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 3: things after videos of Latifa appeared in which she accused 279 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 3: her father of holding her hostage and said she was 280 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: a prisoner. But then after she a second time, lost 281 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 3: contact with her supporters, and then started to appear in 282 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 3: these social media posts. She met with Michelle Bachelet, who 283 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 3: is Mary Robinson's successor as U and Human Rights Commissioner, 284 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 3: who released a statement to say that Latifa had assured 285 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 3: her that she was well and living as she wishes 286 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 3: to and just wished, you know, wish to be left 287 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: alone to live her life in peace. I spoke to 288 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: Michelle Bachelet after that statement, and she acknowledged to me 289 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 3: that while she'd said that, actually she was far from 290 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 3: convinced that Latifa was actually safe and well. Certain couldn't 291 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: rule out that Latifa had come to this meeting with 292 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 3: her under durest and had been put under pressure to 293 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 3: say those things. It's certainly hard for me, having spent 294 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 3: many months kind of immersed in Latifa's writings and the 295 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 3: recordings that she left behind, and just those sort of 296 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 3: decades of determination on her part, never to give in, 297 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: never to surrender, never to accept a life under her 298 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 3: father's control. It's very hard to imagine that she has suddenly, 299 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 3: of her own free will, completely reversed course and all 300 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 3: of that and decided that she really does just want 301 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 3: to live in Dubai. You know, I think clearly the 302 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 3: stance that she has now taken is at least a 303 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 3: product of years of torture, imprisonment and abuse, an extreme duress. 304 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 3: And of course it's possible that she's being outright coerced 305 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 3: and you know, is being threatened into saying these things. 306 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: I think, given what we know about the way Shapemhammad 307 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 3: has treated his daughters and other women in the family, 308 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 3: nothing is off limits in terms of what he would 309 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 3: be willing to do to crush their rebellions, to bring 310 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 3: them to heal. And so I don't think anyone should 311 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 3: rest assured that Latifa is well and is living freely. 312 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: One thing that is just very clear in your story 313 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: is that Latifa's family is just incredibly powerful and I 314 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: will say frightening. Were you nervous at all investigating and 315 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: publishing your story? 316 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 3: I think I was certainly conscious that shap Muhammad's government 317 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 3: has no compunction about sort of digital surveillance on journalists 318 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: and things like that. You know, one of the things 319 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 3: that came out in the course of a court battle 320 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 3: between shape Mohammad and his his youngest wife, Princess High 321 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 3: who's another princess who ran away from him to the 322 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 3: UK seeking protection. Was that Shane Muhammad had used his 323 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 3: you know, his intelligence agencies had hacked Higher's phone and 324 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: the phones of her lawyers and various supporters with the 325 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 3: Pegasus Israeli spyware, and that subsequently some supporters of Latifa's 326 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 3: found that Pegasus was also on their phones. And so 327 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 3: I was conscious that that sort of thing was certainly 328 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 3: a possibility of not a likelihood, and was therefore sort 329 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: of careful about digital security to the extent that any 330 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 3: of us really can be these days. But you know, 331 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 3: it's yeah, I mean, I think beyond that, I just 332 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 3: feel incredibly lucky to live in a country where, for all, 333 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 3: for all Britain's many failians, I think, you know, it's 334 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 3: a pretty safe place to go about your work as 335 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 3: a journalist. I think it would have been quite a 336 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 3: different thing traveling to de Buy and doing reporting there, 337 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 3: because I think there are a real risks to journalists 338 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 3: in that region, and you know, but I'm lucky to 339 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 3: operate in a pretty safe country for this kind of work. 340 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: And so I wasn't I wasn't too nervous for my 341 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 3: sort of physical safety, but certainly, yeah, conscious of the 342 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: kind of digital security side of things you alluded to. 343 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: Princess Hio, as you said, was Shiekmhammad's youngest wife, was 344 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: involved in a court bettal and ultimately was able to 345 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: win a settlement and win custody of their children to 346 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: live in England. Can you speak a little bit about 347 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 2: her experience. 348 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, Princess Hia's case is a really interesting one because 349 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 3: she's kind of the one who got away, I mean 350 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 3: literally the one who got away. I think that that 351 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 3: is really due entirely to her independent status as the 352 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: daughter of the former king of Jordan, a member of 353 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 3: the Jordanian royal family, and a woman who, unlike other 354 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 3: women in Shamhamon's family, actually had a considerable amount of 355 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 3: power and status in her own right. And you know, 356 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 3: while U is an important ally to Western governments, so 357 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 3: is Jordan. That comes with a certain inviolability. I think 358 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 3: that wasn't there for Shakemhammad's own children. So when Princess 359 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 3: hire ran away to the UK in twenty nineteen with 360 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 3: her two young children, she was actually afforded the diplomatic 361 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 3: position at the Jordan embassy, which gave her immunity and protection. 362 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 3: She was then able sort of under that cover to 363 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: apply to the courts for court protection. Her children were 364 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 3: made wards of the Court in the UK, which meant 365 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: they couldn't be removed from the country without court permission. 366 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: She was then able to bring a claim against Shapemuhammad 367 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 3: in the British courts, which actually provided a forum for 368 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: a lot of the evidence of his abuse of his 369 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 3: daughters to come out, because she cited his abuse of 370 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 3: both Latifa and her sister Shamza as evidence of the 371 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 3: threat that Shae Muhammad posed to her and to her 372 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 3: own children. And so those masters were adjudicated in a 373 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 3: British court. The judge held a kind of fact finding 374 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 3: process and ultimately ruled that indeed Chich Muhammad had kidnapped 375 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 3: and in prison Shamza and Latifa. And so that was 376 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: kind of an extraordinary development in this story, this moment 377 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 3: where one of these women was actually able to get 378 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 3: out and get the truth out there. And it was 379 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: kind of interesting because Hire had played a pretty ambiguous 380 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 3: role in all of this up until that point, because 381 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 3: she had been the person who arranged this lunch between 382 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: Latifa and Mary Robinson for the product of which were 383 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 3: these photographs, and then this statement by Mary Robinson that 384 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 3: Latifa was mentally unwell and basically shouldn't be believed and 385 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 3: Hire had sort of therefore been part of this propaganda 386 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 3: campaign by Ship Muhammad's government to try to dispel international 387 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 3: concern about Latifa, and then shortly afterwards actually ran away 388 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 3: herself and said help me, I'm in danger, and actually 389 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 3: by way of proved look what he's doing to Latifa, 390 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 3: and so you know, she kind of there was this 391 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 3: extraordinary reversal on her part and so's, yeah, she's a 392 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 3: fascinating character in all of this, and she's still living 393 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: in the She actually won the biggest dull settlement in 394 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 3: British legal history against Shapemhammed, and yeah, really sort of 395 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: delivered a pretty resounding blow to his reputation in this 396 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 3: court action that she was able to bring in all 397 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 3: of the appalling abuses that it brought to light. 398 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: Latifa's sister, Shamsa, as you alluded to, had also attempted 399 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: to escape when she was in England, and she was 400 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: unsuccessful and wasn't able to claim asylum in England. Can 401 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 2: you briefly just just walk us through sort of what 402 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: Chamser's escape attempt had been like. 403 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, so Chansa's escape is really the 404 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 3: sort of inciting incident that set off a whole chain 405 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 3: of events here that ultimately ended up with Latifa repeatedly 406 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 3: trying to escape herself, because Lativa's escape attempts were to 407 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 3: try to get help for Shamsa and Chanza had clashed 408 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: with shape Mohammed increasingly as she kind of grew older 409 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 3: as a teenager. She wanted to study, she wants she 410 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 3: wants to travel, she wants to go to university. She 411 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: didn't want to wear the a buyers, she wanted to 412 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 3: be able to drive, she wanted you know, those those 413 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 3: those sorts of freedoms that women in the West enjoy, 414 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 3: and she was denied all of that, and increasingly sort 415 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 3: of had this strained relationship with her father, and so 416 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: ultimately decided, when she was in her late teens that 417 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 3: she would run away. And she waited till she and 418 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 3: and some other members of the family had traveled to 419 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 3: Shakee Mohammed's summer house in the UK. She was staying 420 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 3: there with with the entourage, and she waited till after 421 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 3: dark one night and then slipped away and managed to 422 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 3: find a range rover that had been left unattended in 423 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 3: the ground, and she drove it out to the perimeter 424 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 3: of the estate, dumped the car and slipped through a 425 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 3: gate on foot and dumped her mobile phone and then 426 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 3: just sort of disappeared into the night, and it was 427 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 3: it was weeks before she was tracked down. She managed 428 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 3: to kind of stay on the run, find friends to 429 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: stay with, and she actually managed to contact an immigration lawyer, 430 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 3: a guy called Paul Simon, and asked him to help 431 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: her get asylum in the UK. She kind of walked 432 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 3: into this office of this small time lawyer and said, 433 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 3: I'm a runaway princess from the Dubai royal family, please 434 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 3: can you help me? Which must have been a pretty 435 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 3: extraordinary walking but he basically advised her that he wasn't 436 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 3: going to be able to help her because she didn't 437 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 3: have a passport. She'd left that behind at the house, 438 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: and so she was sort of out on her own, 439 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 3: and in her desperation, she turned to one of her 440 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 3: father's guards in the UK, a guy who she had 441 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 3: sort of come to trust over the course of her 442 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 3: summer's there, and asked him to help her. And instead 443 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 3: of helping her, he lured her into a kidnapping. She 444 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 3: was then dragged back to her father's estate and put 445 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: on a helicopter and then a private jet back to Dubai, 446 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 3: where she was held for decades under heavy sedation and 447 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 3: under constant guard, and as far as we know, still 448 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: is being held following that attempt all these years ago. 449 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: I was about to say, we've gotten these sort of 450 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 2: heavily manicured photos on social media of Latifa, but is 451 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: there any evidence that Chamsa is alive. 452 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 3: No, Shamsa really has sort of disappeared without trace. The 453 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 3: last chen pinpoint Shamsa's whereabouts is that there is an 454 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 3: extraordinary record that Latifa created of a meeting between the 455 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: two sisters, which was in the summer of twenty nineteen 456 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 3: in their father's desert compound. And they were actually both 457 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 3: summoned to meet shae Mohammad because they've been called to 458 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 3: testify in Princess Hya's case in London and he wanted 459 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: to make sure that they didn't do this, and so 460 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 3: he summoned them both to ask them to provide a 461 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 3: statement say they didn't wish to testify. When they refused 462 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 3: to comply, he just wrote to the court on their 463 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 3: behalf and said, my daughters have no wish to have 464 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: any part in this, but Shamsu and Nativa sort of 465 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: had this private moment together, and it's one of the things. 466 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 3: We've just released a podcast series about this story. And 467 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 3: one of the things for me that sort of most 468 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 3: compelling is to hear these extraordinary tapes that Theatifa made 469 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 3: during her imprisonment, and that some of these tapes after 470 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: the meeting with Shamsa are some of the most haunting 471 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 3: for me because just the raw pain and emotion in 472 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 3: her voice as she describes this moment of seeing her sister, 473 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 3: who she just adored and who she'd fought for and 474 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 3: she tried twice to escape for to try and get help, 475 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 3: she'd risked her life for. When this coming, this brief 476 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 3: coming together of these two women before they were wrenched 477 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 3: apart again, it's just absolutely heartrending. And after that, we 478 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 3: have no record of what happened to Shamsa. None of 479 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: the Royal insiders I spoke with were able to shed 480 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 3: any light on where she was or knew where she was. 481 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: When I spoke with Michelle Bashade, the former You and 482 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 3: Human Rights Commissioner who met with Latifa, She said that 483 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 3: something that had really struck her was that Latifa was 484 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 3: reasonably composed during their meeting, but when she asked about Shamsa, 485 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 3: Latifa had become suddenly very firm and had said, no, 486 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 3: I will not discuss my sister. I will I'm here 487 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: to talk about myself, and I will not ask answer 488 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 3: questions about her. And it seemed odd that she was. 489 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 3: There was such a hard line there, like there was 490 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: just something there that Latifa was absolutely not going to 491 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 3: go near. And so, you know, one dreads to think 492 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 3: what Shamsa's situation might be. You know, certainly for the 493 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: decades since she attempted to escape as a teenager, it 494 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: has been absolutely dire. 495 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 2: And one thing that I found uniquely heartbreaking and a 496 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: little frightening that you detailed in your investigation was how 497 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: when English detective inspectors were trying to look into this case, 498 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: they were fairly continually stymied by higher up saying it's 499 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: none of our concern. Was that for political reasons? 500 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that was one of the sort of 501 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 3: real central mysteries of all of this was sort of 502 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 3: what happened to these attempts by the police to investigate 503 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 3: you know, in Chansa's case, she showed extraordinary resourcefulness as 504 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 3: an eighteen year old on the run, and that she 505 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 3: managed to instruct this lawyer to act for her, and 506 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 3: then having been kidnapped, she managed to get hold of 507 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 3: a phone and get a message to her lawyer saying 508 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 3: that she wanted the police to be involved, and her 509 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 3: lawyer then decided to ignore this and do nothing about it. 510 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 3: She then, after another six months of imprisonment, managed again 511 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 3: to get a message to her lawyer and this time 512 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 3: the police. You know, the police were notified that she 513 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 3: was alleging that she'd been kidnapped from the UK and 514 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: I was a detective who attempted to investigate. But he 515 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 3: described how you just were sort of blocked at every 516 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 3: turn and ultimately was told that he wasn't going to 517 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 3: be allowed to travel to Dubai to try to investigate 518 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 3: shams in situation, and so he decided to kind of 519 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 3: step away from the case. And you know, he certainly 520 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: felt clearly that that was politically motivated. You know, he 521 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 3: said to me, because you're a rich and powerful enough person, 522 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 3: you can break any law you like in our country 523 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 3: and get away with it, and that that had always 524 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 3: really frustrated him. And that was something I heard from 525 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: multiple police officers and also former government officials. I spoke 526 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 3: to you, that the relationship with the UAE was just 527 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 3: too strategically important for the government to compromise, you know, 528 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 3: over the individual fate of one or two or three princesses, 529 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 3: and they just weren't prepared to go to the map 530 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: for these women. They kind of viewed it as a 531 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,239 Speaker 3: private family matter. And officials I spoke to you were 532 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 3: pretty you know, pretty confident that these sorts of things, 533 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 3: you know, blow over, and that they knew that. One 534 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 3: of them said that, you know, when and these sort 535 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 3: of things blew up with these members of Shapemhammad's family. 536 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 3: You know, they felt fairly confident they would be a 537 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 3: forty eight hour wonder and then everybody would move on 538 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 3: and forget. And I think that's right, you know, I 539 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 3: think they did get away with allowing this to happen 540 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 3: and shape Muhammad continues to enjoy a very cordial relationship 541 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 3: with the British government and you know, and is esteemed 542 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 3: on the world stage as you know, a progressive leader 543 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 3: in the Middle East. And despite all of this, that 544 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 3: continues to be the case. 545 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: Well, that is a lot to think about. Heidi Blake. 546 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: To read more, read her incredible investigative reporting in The 547 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 2: New Yorker and listen to The New Yorker's brand new 548 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: podcast series, The Runaway Princesses. Thank you so much for 549 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: being here. 550 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Daniel. This is a real pleasure. 551 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and 552 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Manki. Noble Blood is created and hosted 553 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: by me Dana Shwarts, with additional writing and researching by 554 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. 555 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: The show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and 556 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: rima Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive 557 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more 558 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 559 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.