1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. I guess, like many people 2 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: my age, we grew up going to vacation Bible school 3 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: during the summer, going to Sunday school on Sundays, and 4 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: unlike being in school, there was something different about a 5 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: Sunday school teacher. They weren't there for the pay. They 6 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: were there because they felt as though that it was 7 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: a calling and they wanted to teach kids right from wrong, essentially, 8 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: and I have fond memories of those that taught me 9 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: as a small child. But today we're going to talk 10 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: about a woman who had essentially devoted her entire life 11 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: to God and to the education of children in her community. 12 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: Today we're going to talk about the homicide of Sasha Cross. 13 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Joining me 14 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories with 15 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: Nancy Grays. I can't fathom why anyone in the world 16 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: would want to just randomly set about destroying such a 17 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: beautiful life. But I'm beginning to think about what happened 18 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: to Sarah Krauss out there in that cold desert in 19 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: northern Arizona, and it conjures up images of monsters rising 20 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: up out of the dark, and I think that that 21 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: is probably what happened in the case of Sarah, just 22 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: living her life, not a care in the world other 23 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: than taking care of these kids that were in her charge, 24 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: and then suddenly she vanishes from her Mennonite community. There 25 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: are so many facts in this case, Joe, that really 26 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: are difficult to understand. The first thing for me that 27 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: struck me twenty seven year old Sasha Kraus was a 28 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: Sunday school teacher and she worked in the publishing industry, 29 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: and she was shot in the head and left in 30 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: the cold. She disappeared from New Mexico in January of 31 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: twenty twenty and her body was found by a camper 32 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: in Arizona. Remember it's January. Her body was left out 33 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 1: in the cold. But what's surprising about this case is 34 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: the man who was charged with Kraus's death, Mark Gooch, 35 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: and Sasha Krause, didn't know each other. Yet there is 36 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: no sex assault that can be verified. The autopsy says 37 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: it could not be conclusive, and there's no other outside 38 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: relationship that can be verified between these two people. That's 39 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: a curious thing, because you know, it's not like Sasha 40 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: lived in an environment that was heavily populated, like where 41 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: you think that there's going to be an opportunity for 42 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: some stranger to cross her path that meant her harm. 43 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: In some big urban area or perhaps in her little community, 44 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: would be very easy to narrow down anyone that might 45 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: have held a grudge against her. In let's face that 46 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: she was a Mennonite. The Mennonites, by their nature are pacifist, 47 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: and so you think who in the world would pertrate 48 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: this kind of violence as level of violence on this 49 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: poor young woman who had lived her life by the 50 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: tenants of the Bible essentially, and the tenants of her 51 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: community educating small children, who would seek to target her. 52 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: And that makes this case all the more horrible because 53 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: it's Yeah, I think for the people that lived around her, 54 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: lived within this community, and her family that lived back 55 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: in Texas, the moment that they realized that she was missing, 56 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure that they were sitting around scratching their heads 57 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: wondering where in the world could she be. She didn't 58 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: light out in her car, Her car was still there. 59 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: It's almost as if she had just vanished into thin 60 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: air at their community in New Mexico. So your investigative 61 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: skills are going to have to be top notch one 62 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: this one because when we look at what happened, as 63 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: you pointed out, she just disappeared. So when Sasha Krauss 64 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: went missing, the investigators really had to bring their a game, 65 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: as we obviously know they always do. But there was 66 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: very very little to go on. As you just said, 67 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: her car was still there, They had little information to 68 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: go on. So when this is the case, what do 69 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: you do, Joe, Well, you have to start at the beginning, 70 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: where she was last seen and who her intimate circle is. 71 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: And we've talked about this before on bodybacks. It's not 72 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: like you're looking for someone that is a stranger to 73 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: the individual, someone that has this level of hatred, and 74 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: this is a sign of hatred. And you're bringing about 75 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: the death of this young woman that hasn't the best 76 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: rine knowledge, done any significant harm to anybody. So who 77 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: would lash out at her? Is there someone in the community? 78 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: You know? From that point, tom becomes certainly an issue 79 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: because you know initially and you look at this, this 80 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: is not a homicide. It's not you're looking for a 81 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: member of your group that has gone missing. So the 82 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: human brain does not necessarily the default position is not homicide. Okay, 83 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: they just think missing. They're going to think, well, maybe 84 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: she wandered off in the scrub. Maybe she's off somewhere 85 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: out in the distance and she hadn't been able to 86 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: find her way back. Maybe she's injured somewhere. We want 87 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: to go try to put together a team and find her. 88 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: And that's generally how these things start out. The problem is, 89 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: many times when things start out as a missing person's case, 90 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: evidence for instance, that could be essential to a homicide 91 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: investigation might be overlooked or might be disturbed in some manner. 92 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: Let me give you an example. Let's say, for instance, 93 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: you've got somebody that was last known to be in 94 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: a building, okay, like in a structure, they have an office, 95 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: or maybe it's their home or whatever the case might be, 96 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: and the individual vanishes, they disappear, well immediately if you 97 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: begin to search that area in which they dwell, that 98 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: space that they occupied, normally you're going to be in 99 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: a fever to try to find them. You're not going 100 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: to be thinking about trace evidence necessarily. You'll be looking 101 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: for things. So as you kind of make your way 102 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: through a dwelling. For instance, you're throwing open doors, you're 103 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: touching door handles, you're scuffing on the floor. Maybe you're 104 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: outside and the bushes adjacent to the entrance and the 105 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: exit to a building. You might be trampling on footprints 106 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: for all you know, you might be trampling on cigarette butts, 107 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: anything that might give you an indication later on that 108 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: someone had kind of interjected themselves into Sasha's environment and 109 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: had removed her from that location, somebody that may perhaps 110 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: had brought about her death. At that moment time, all 111 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: you want to do is find her safe and secure, 112 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: and of course, as we know, that turned out not 113 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: to be the case. When Kraus's car was found in 114 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: the investigative teams went through it. She disappeared after eating 115 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: dinner with her roommates, and she didn't have her wallet, 116 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: she didn't have money, she didn't have her driver's license, 117 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: and obviously she didn't have her car. So that was 118 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: a fur clue, wasn't it. That's that first step that 119 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: you're talking about in setting up a timeline of when 120 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: she went missing. Yeah. Yeah, it is all of those 121 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: little elements that make up who we are. They come 122 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: into play those things that we have very specific and 123 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: intimate control over in our lives, identifiers id for instance, 124 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: a driver's license or sub security card, or maybe a purse, 125 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: a pocketbook, or maybe a backpack that we are known 126 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: to carry. Either an absence or presence of those is 127 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: going to play into the investigation. It's going to be 128 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: a significant finding. If you find, say, for instance, a 129 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: pocketbook that is just laying on the ground, and you 130 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: can't find the person that's associated with it, then that's 131 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: going to be a big tell. Conversely, if the pocketbook 132 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: is gone, you would make this kind of logical assumption, well, 133 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: they might not have taken their card, but they left 134 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: with their pocketbook, for instance, or left with keys, or 135 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: left with money, that sort of thing, And so it 136 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: paints it in a different light depended upon what you 137 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: find for your initial investigation into a case like this. 138 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: I like to camp. I camp with my family a 139 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: couple of times a year, I say, I like to 140 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: My wife likes to do it more than I do, 141 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: but I try to indulge her and be a good husband, 142 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: so I'll go out and camp. But one of the 143 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: things that we do is we go out and we 144 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: gather firewood if we haven't brought our own. And I 145 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: cannot imagine what it's like to be in a peaceful 146 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: environment where you're trying to recharge your batteries, you're out 147 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: picking up firewood, and then all of a sudden you 148 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: look down and you see a body. I can't imagine 149 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: what that would be like. I think that probably my 150 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: gut ray action, at least initially, would be is the 151 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: person alive? And then I would begin to think, well, 152 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: if they're deceased, is there a chance that harm's going 153 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: to come to me. The person who found Sasha Krause 154 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: probably felt exactly the same thing, given what could be seen. 155 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: Sasha's body was found near Sunset Crater of volcano and 156 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: the National Monuments. They're outside Flagstaff. That's more than two 157 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: hundred and seventy miles from the place where Sasha was 158 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: last seen. She had on the same clothes that she 159 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: was wearing when she was taken, and she had several 160 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: injuries to her head, and her hands were duct taped. 161 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: So just seeing the duct tape around somebody's hands would 162 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: be frightening enough. So investigators come and they start to 163 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: process the scene. Walk me through that. Joe because there's 164 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: a lot of things going on here that they have 165 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: to make note of. Yeah, it certainly is duct tape. 166 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you brought that up, because it's one 167 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: of those things that it gives you pause. It's unreasonable 168 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: to think that anyone would obviously duct tape their own wrist. 169 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: So you know from Jump Street that something is a 170 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: miss here. And this young woman who according to the police, 171 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: when they observed her body, she appeared to be dressed 172 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: in homemade clothing. Now keep in mind, they have no 173 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: idea who this is. All they know is that a 174 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: camper is reported finding a body out here in this 175 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: wilderness area in this national park, and she's laying there 176 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: on the ground. Hands are visible, duct tape is visible, 177 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: and kind of an interesting thing. They look down and 178 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: they see one of the things that kind of stands 179 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: out to them. They notice that not only is she 180 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: wearing kind of this homespun dress, but her hair, which 181 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: is brown, is tied up in a neat bun the 182 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: back of her head. And of course that comes into 183 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: play later, but it's just one of those identifying factors. 184 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: A young lady like this that appears, I would imagine 185 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: so very passive in her appearance out there would wind 186 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: up in a state like this, and this is a 187 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: dirt kind of a loose dirt surface that you're looking 188 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: at here, and you know, you have to think, were 189 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: they thinking at that moment time did she actually walk 190 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: to this spot herself, because you would be looking certainly 191 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: for footprints of any kind that might say matchup would 192 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: that she wear that she is currently wearing. But one 193 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: of the things that they found immediately adjacent to her 194 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: body that is significant are what they termed as drag marks. Now, 195 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: drag marks can come about in any number of ways, 196 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: and they can present in kind of a number of ways. 197 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: But if you are essentially dragging someone along, let's say 198 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: you're dragging them in a supine position, which means face up, 199 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: and you're dragging them by the collar, there's a high 200 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: probability that the drag marks that will be left behind 201 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: are going to be generated from the heels of the feet, 202 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: because the pressure is going to adjust so that the 203 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: heels make contact and the ground will kind of furrow out, 204 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: if you will. Now, conversely, if you think about flipping 205 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: person over and having them almost in a prone posture 206 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: as you're dragging them, of course they would be bent 207 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: at the hips. The presentation of the marks themselves will 208 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: be more broad because more than likely your legs will 209 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: be contacting periodically the ground from your kneecaps all the 210 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: way down to the tips of your toes, so those 211 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: are going to have a different appearance. I think that 212 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: what is important is you have to think about how 213 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: delicate these marks are, because when I say delicate, I'm 214 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: talking about the level of fragility that might exist. You 215 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: have to be very careful as you begin to kind of, 216 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, march back from maybe their origin. If they're 217 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: found immediately adjacent to her body, you have to think 218 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: about the point of origin. Is there, say, for instance, 219 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: a parking pad that's not too far away that you're 220 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 1: going to drag somebody from, and are there other marks? 221 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: Maybe she was able to walk part of the way, 222 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: and you'll see footprints that kind of fall in line 223 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: with these drag marks, and then suddenly the drag marks 224 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: pick up. Maybe you have footprints again, and then you 225 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: have more drag marks, and that will tell you a 226 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: lot as well, because you would be thinking, well, if 227 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: she's walking, she's still alive, so maybe the place where 228 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: she died was where the body is found, as opposed 229 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: to having been killed somewhere else and drug to that location. 230 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: So not only are you looking for her drag marks, 231 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: you're looking for her footprints, but also one thing you 232 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: have to consider, you would be looking for the footprints 233 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: of the person that drug her, and they're going to 234 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: look obviously completely different than hers. Wood. She's not a 235 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: large person, so her footprints would appear rather diminutive, and 236 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: you would be looking for somebody perhaps that has the strength, 237 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, those footprints would be more robust in appearance. 238 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: There's any number of different types of evidence that could 239 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: be associated with this. As I'd mentioned earlier, you would 240 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: be looking for things that are associated with her. If 241 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: there's any kind of scrub brush that's along the way, 242 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: you can look for fiber evidence. I mentioned her dress 243 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: as homespun, Okay, so that's going to be a very specific, 244 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: homemade creation. It's not like it's not like you walk 245 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: into a big department store and find this item that 246 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: she's wearing. These things, these dresses that she is wearing 247 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: their handmaid. This is something that is unique to her 248 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: and it has a very specific fabric. It has a 249 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: very specific pattern. So let's just say, for instance, you're 250 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: moving her through this brush and you happen to catch 251 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: a bit of this fiber on a twig sticking out. Well, 252 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: that from a fiber trace evidence perspective, which is one 253 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: of the practices in forensic science, we can actually marry 254 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: that up with a clothing that she is wearing. You know, 255 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: you look for things like threadcount and all these sorts 256 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: of things, and the twist in the actual weave, which 257 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: is significant. All of these things play in. We have 258 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: fiber evidence that is to be considered. We have hair 259 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: evidence that is to be considered. Remember when they found her. 260 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: When they found her, her head was bare, and we 261 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: can get into that a little bit more. But her 262 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: hair was exposed. It was up in a bun. So 263 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: if there's hair that you're careful to collect, maybe that's 264 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: caught up in some of the brush. And again that 265 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: is a specific biological tie back to her. And I 266 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,359 Speaker 1: think finally, if you begin to talk about assessment of injuries. 267 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: For instance, in Sausha's case, we do know that she 268 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: had sustained injuries to her head, and if that had 269 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: occurred somewhere back up the trail, for instance, you would 270 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: have to be very very careful that you look for 271 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: traces of say, for instance, blood evidence in any particular 272 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: spot that might be along that kind of marries up 273 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: with this path that's being followed, which of course terminates 274 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: in the discovery of her deceased person. A couple of 275 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: points here. When Sasha was found it was January in Arizona. 276 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: The other point is she was laying face down in 277 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: the clearing in the forest. What does that position do 278 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: combined with the temperature to the decomposition factor. Obviously it 279 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: was more than a month from her disappearance when her 280 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: body was found. And if it was on an average 281 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: day in Arizona, say three o'clock in the afternoon, you're 282 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: going to have average temperatures. But it was cold and 283 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: her body was face down, what's that going to tell us? 284 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: And how does that impact the auto seeing what was 285 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: done to her head injuries? She's found in Arizona. And 286 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: I think that many people that have not spent much 287 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: time in Arizona, which I'm proud to say that I have. 288 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: I was there stationed in the army at for to 289 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: get down the southern part of the state, and I've 290 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: traveled over a goodly portion of the state beautiful place. 291 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: And most people associate Arizona with desert Okay, and there 292 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: is a lot of desert. People don't realize how cold 293 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: the desert can be. When you get up in the 294 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: northern portion of the state, which is near Flagstaff. In 295 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: that area, it gets very cold. As a matter of fact, 296 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: I think if I'm not mistaken near Flagstaff to actually 297 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: have ski resorts up there, all right, And I might 298 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: be mistaken, but I think that's accurate. The average temperature 299 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: in January for that particular area is at the low 300 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: rather the low average low is about twelve degrees just 301 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: that's colder. That's colder obviously than we keep our refrigerators 302 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: at home. That's colder than our freezers from most people. 303 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: So to your point, Jackie, the idea that yes, she 304 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: had been out there a month and there will be 305 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: some decompositional changes in her body. However, you have to 306 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: consider because there is such a low temperature over this 307 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: period of time, perhaps on average, that is going to 308 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: retard the decompositional process. It's going to slow it. And 309 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: as we've said on body bags before, and I will 310 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: continue to say, heat speeds things up and when you 311 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: have an absence of heat and you replace the ambient 312 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: air temperature with cold air, it's going to slow this 313 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: process down. When we begin to think about the position 314 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: that she was found in, and this is quite tragic, 315 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: I think, because that could be the position she was 316 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: last in in life. This is, at least in my assessment, 317 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: what you would term as a classic execution style homicide. 318 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: Sasha unfortunately was shot in the back of the head 319 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: execution style. This is something where you begin to think 320 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: about We've talked before about asymmetrical positioning relative to a 321 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: victim and the perpetrator. So you have an individual that 322 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: is dominant over her that is literally firing into the 323 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: back of her head. So she would be in a 324 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: submissive position, laying on the ground, perhaps hands restrained with 325 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: the duct tape, and then this single round is fired 326 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: into the back of her head, which of course ends 327 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: her life in that isolated spot away from everybody else, 328 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: And you think about it, and that's so sad because 329 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: here this woman was that had devoted herself to living 330 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: in this community, these people that she loved, and she 331 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: loved these kids, and she's out in the middle of 332 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: this wilderness and she dies all alone in fear, with 333 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: her hands bound. It's a horrible thing to consider. The 334 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,959 Speaker 1: further examination of her reveal that she had sustained blunt 335 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: forced trauma to her head, and that's in addition to 336 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: the gunshot one. Okay, so what does that say. Well, 337 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: if there's evidence of blunt force trauma, that means that 338 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: this is going to be anti mortem trauma. That means 339 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: that there would be in dwelling hemorrhage that is the 340 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: body's response to any kind of impact injury she may 341 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: have sustained. So you'll have a bruise that sets in, 342 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: for instance, and that's the body's response to being struck. 343 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: You wouldn't have that in death. And at least I 344 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: think that in cases like this, where you're trying to 345 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: get somebody to submit, where you, as a perpetrator have 346 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: made the decision that you're finally going to end their life, 347 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: you have to get them to submit. And maybe that 348 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: blow or blows to her head was an attempt to 349 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: get her to submit, to lay down in that cold, 350 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: cold dirt out there in the middle of that high desert, 351 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: and it was at that moment time he shot her 352 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: in the back of the head. But what about Sasha 353 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: being faced down in the clearing that contact with the ground. 354 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: How does that impact knowing what happened to her? First off, 355 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: we go back to the idea of preservation, and not 356 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: only do we have an ambient environmental temperature of the air, 357 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: the air temperature that we're talking about, but you have 358 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: to think about the temperature of the earth that is 359 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: underlying her body. That space would be cold as well, 360 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: which again would to a certain degree promote perhaps the 361 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: preservation of the remains. You think about her contacting her 362 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: surfaces of her body, which if she's faced down, that 363 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: means that she's in a prone position. So one of 364 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: the things I think would be significant here is if 365 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: she was in this prone position when she was found, 366 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: you have to ask the question what she drug out 367 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: there in kind of a facedown position. Just imagine if 368 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: she had been grabbed by the scruff of the neck 369 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: is they used to say, maybe by the shirt collar, 370 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: and she's drug out there and placed in this position 371 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 1: out there, Think about that and think about the marks 372 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: that that would have left on the soil, and then 373 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: concurrently the soil the earth contacting her body, and you 374 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 1: begin to look for trace elements there relative to the 375 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: soil that will present on the surface of her clothing 376 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: on the front, in particular, if she was brought out 377 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,719 Speaker 1: there in a prone position, and you'll get an idea 378 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: if those fibers have been scraped across their leading surfaces 379 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: as a result of being drug and at that time 380 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: of the year as well, one of the other things 381 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: from an entomological standpoint, you have to understand that at 382 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: that point in time, when it's so cold, there's going 383 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: to be quite a bit of dormancy in insect activity 384 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: out there, so that's not going to play as big 385 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: a factor that it would, say, for instance, if you 386 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: were getting into the warmer months, they're going to be 387 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: in a period of dormancy because it is so very 388 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: cold out there, So insect activity that might come up 389 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,719 Speaker 1: from the surrounding earth is not going to be as 390 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: prevalent at this time of the year because they're going 391 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: to be in a period of dormancy compared to what 392 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: it would be like, say, for instance, when we get 393 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: into the warmer months like March, in April and May. 394 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: When the local authorities up in northern Arizona got this 395 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: phone call, I can only imagine their response, You've got 396 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: the remains of a young woman that are found out 397 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: there in homespun clothing in the depth of wintertime out there. 398 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: I can only imagine they're scratching their heads and they're saying, 399 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: where did she come from? Because there are no cars 400 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: that are associated with her out here. She's just laying 401 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: here in this wilder, in this area and just was 402 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: happened upon by a total stranger that was out gathering firewood. 403 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: Police connected an Air Force member by the name of 404 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: Mark Gooch to the death of Sasha Krause, and they 405 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: did that through surveillance video and cell phone records. There 406 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be any connection, as we said earlier, 407 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: between these two individuals, other than the information that was 408 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: revealed in texts between Mark Gooch and his brother. We 409 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: find out that Mark Gooch was raised with a connection 410 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: to the Mennonite community. There seemed to be a real 411 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: disdain for this faith in this community. But there still 412 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be a motive for this murder. And 413 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: that's the riddle, isn't it. As a try to make 414 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: a point of up to this point, who she harmed? 415 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: But what great harm has Sasha Krause wrought upon this 416 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 1: earth that would cause her to end up in the state, 417 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: And from an investigative standpoint, I can only imagine that 418 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: that's what then the police were dealing with from the beginning. 419 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: When they finally did track down Gooch and determine that 420 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: he was responsible, you know, the pieces began to kind 421 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: of fall into place, and he had an intimate knowledge 422 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: of the Mennonite faith and the community. He had apparently 423 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: grown up around the Mennonite community, but he chose not 424 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: to join the particular group that he was associated with 425 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: and went into the US Air Force instead, you know, 426 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: And that's what I was saying earlier, that Mennonites are pacifist. 427 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: You're not going to find them signing up to go 428 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: and fight necessarily or to join the armed forces. It's 429 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: not what they do. It's not part of who they are. 430 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: And so he made this decision that runs completely contrary 431 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: to the life he was brought up around. And I 432 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: think that that goes to a bigger idea here. Why 433 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: is it that your life is on track, you're not 434 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: part of the Men of Knot community. Why is it 435 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 1: that you would choose and go and completely destroy the 436 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: life of someone who is doing the best you possibly 437 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: can and is actually helping people. And I think that 438 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about motivations and for someone 439 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: that commits a horrible act like that, I think that 440 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: you begin to do a deeper exploration of what might 441 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: have been his reasoning. It took police almost two months 442 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: to put together the pieces of this to track down 443 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: the culprit, Mark Gooch. It was cell phone records and 444 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: video surveillance. Video witnesses reported seeing a white suv outside 445 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: the church where Kraus was involved and worked. We also 446 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: know that his cell phone and her cell phone pinged 447 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,679 Speaker 1: in the same vicinities off the same towers. So these 448 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: pieces of digital evidence is what it took for police 449 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: to put this together. And it's the whole fact that 450 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: there is no apparent motive other than a grudge against 451 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: a faith, except there were pieces of clothing that would 452 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: have been important to a Mennonite woman that were missing. 453 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: There was no, according to the autopsy, conclusive evidence of 454 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: a rape, although they did not completely release those details 455 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: to pay respect to the family, but the autopsy did 456 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: say that it could not be confirmed that there was 457 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: a rape, yet she had no underwear and her head 458 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: covering was missing, which we know is really important to 459 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: the Mennonite faith. Yeah, it is. And when you see 460 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, these ternam it and I'm probably using the 461 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: wrong term, but I teram it as kind of a 462 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: small bonnet, if you will, And it covers the back 463 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: of the head. They're white, their homemade, and it's probably 464 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: something that's created a lot of affection because it's meant 465 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: to symbolize something. It's meant to symbolize modesty, and that's 466 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: something when you begin to think about that, and you 467 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: do not see women of the Mennonite faith going in 468 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: public without wearing a head covering. And the fact that 469 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: this individual Gooch had a knowledge of the Mennonite faith. 470 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: Out of everything you could have taken from her other 471 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: than her life, why is it that you would essentially 472 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: go after two of the most intimate pieces of clothing 473 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: she possesses. You'd mentioned earlier that Jackie that her underwear 474 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 1: was missing, and then you take this head covering away. 475 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: You don't want to read too much into it, but 476 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: out of everything that could have been taken from her, 477 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: it's almost like that there's this shaming that's going on 478 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: by him of her. I just thought of something here 479 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: that's kind of significant. Her hands were bound with duct tape, 480 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: and they didn't find one wit one sample of DNA 481 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: evidence on the surface of that duct tape. They didn't 482 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: find a fingerprint. And if you look at duct tape 483 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: or any kind of tape, when you look at the 484 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: attacky surface of it, one of the things that happens 485 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: many times in cases involving tape is that you will 486 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: leave behind what's referred to as an adhesive or plastic 487 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: print on the surface of that adherent of the adhesive side. 488 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: You can't help but do that if you're touching it. 489 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: Because we have friction ridges. We don't have fingerprints on 490 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: the ends of our fingers. We leave fingerprints behind. You 491 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: have friction ridges on the tips of your fingers, all right, 492 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: So a fingerprint is something that you leave behind. It 493 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: is literally a negative image of your friction ridges on 494 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: the tips or the pads of your fingers. So when 495 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: investigators and forensics experts talk about fingerprints and they say 496 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: there was so many points that match, that's what investigators 497 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: are talking about. Kind of there's multiple ways to classify fingerprints. 498 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: You have broad patterns which you hear about whirls, fingerprint whorlds. 499 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: That's a particular type of pattern. You have pocket center worlds. 500 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: There's these multiple classifications that you have, but when you 501 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: get specific, you have these little specific identifiers that are 502 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: contained within the print that's left behind. Those are referred 503 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: to as minutia, and you have all kinds of things 504 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: that are in there. You've got dots, pores, ending ridges, 505 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: you have bifurcations, you have deltas. There are all these 506 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: things in almost an infinite combination. And that's the reason 507 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: fingerprints have been used for so long, because they are 508 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: unique to us. Even though there's never been like a 509 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: definitive scientific study that says no two fingerprints are the same. 510 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: That's been the adage for years and years that there 511 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: are new two fingerprints that are the same. There have 512 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: been cases though out there, famously the Madrid train bombing case, 513 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: where you know fingerprints weren't mistaken for somebody else. So 514 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: you have this thing that makes you unique and you 515 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: leave a print behind. Now, most of the time, if 516 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: you think about touching the non poor surface, and the 517 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: best example of that is like glass. The reason your 518 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: fingerprint is visible on the class is because you have 519 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: oil on the tips of your fingers. Okay, fatty lipids 520 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: are excreted through your pores in your fingers, and so 521 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: you leave this pattern behind based upon the friction rich 522 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: pattern you have on your fingertips, so that pattern will 523 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: show up. But in this case, the oil doesn't necessarily 524 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: make the difference. When you begin to talk about adhesive, 525 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: it's almost like you know, when you're a kid and 526 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: you're playing around with silly putty. If you take your 527 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: thumb perhaps and press it down into the silly putty 528 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: and you remove it, that what's referred to as a 529 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: plastic print. That means you're literally leaving an impression behind 530 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: of your finger friction ridges, and your print comes off 531 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: in the putty itself. It's the same principle with tape adhesive. 532 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: And another thing that you'll find in tape adhesive as 533 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: well is you'll shed hair and you'll shed skin cells 534 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: as well, which is where we get a touch DNA 535 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: From touch DNA is only a partial sample of DNA, 536 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: and it's because it's coming off of dead skin cells. 537 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: It's an incomplete DNA molecule. But in this case they 538 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: found none of that, and this leads me to a conclusion, Jackie. 539 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: It leads me to the conclusion that in this particular case, 540 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: I think that there is a high probability that Gooch 541 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: probably wore cloves the entire time he was engaged in 542 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: that And if in fact he did wear cloves, that 543 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: goes to a broader legal issue. That means that he 544 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: had an awareness. He had an awareness that he had 545 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: to impede the authority's ability to be able to track him. 546 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 1: Relative to physical evidence, he went prepared to do harm 547 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: to Sasha. Prepared it is probably the right word to use, 548 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: knowing that he went to an effort afterwards to hide 549 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: his movements that night. He tried to delete the cell 550 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: phone service records on his phone, the location history, he 551 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: had his card detailed, and he asked a friend to 552 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: hold on to his twenty two caliber gun. So, as 553 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: they put this case together, there may not have been 554 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: a motive, but there was plenty of circumstantial evidence. There 555 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: certainly was, And as our friend Nancy Grace likes to say, 556 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: you know, it's not incumbent upon the court or upon 557 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: the prosecutor to prove motive. That's that's not necessarily what's 558 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 1: what's here, But it is the totality of the circumstances 559 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: in this particular case. And another fascinating aspect of this 560 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 1: is that back out at the scene, you know, one 561 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: of the things that we're always looking for, it see, 562 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: and particularly when it comes to gunfire, is ejected shell cases. 563 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: And you know what, they didn't find one out there. 564 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 1: They did not find any ejected shell cases. And I 565 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: can only imagine that when they showed up to process 566 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: the scene where Sasha was found, that they brought a 567 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: metal detector with them. I can almost guarantee it's like 568 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: standard fare now and any kind of crime scene response team, 569 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: they will have a metal detector and they're going to 570 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: sweep that area. Particularly once they begin to do the 571 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: exam on the body and they note that she has 572 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: a whole or a defect as we like to call it, 573 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 1: in the back of her head. That gives you an 574 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: indication that she is sustained a firearms related injury. At 575 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: Sasha's autopsy, one of the things that they discovered, I 576 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 1: think probably if there's something fortunate that can come out 577 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: of this, was fortunately they actually recovered the projectile. The 578 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: projectile was actually still there inside of her skull. And 579 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: what we refer to as cranial vault. And the reason 580 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: that's fortunate is because when they finally they being the investigators, 581 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: finally got their hands on Gucha's weapon, they were able 582 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: to marry that up with the round that they recovered 583 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 1: from Sasha's body, and there was a ballistic match. So 584 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: the farm's examiner came to that conclusion within a reasonable 585 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: scientific certainty. You know, lawyers have us say that we're 586 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: on the stand that round was actually fired from this 587 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: specific weapon that was owned by Gouch. Again, that is 588 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: a bit of physical, circumstantial evidence that he owns the 589 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: weapon and that that weapon more than likely brought about 590 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: her death or him utilizing that weapon brought about her death. 591 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 1: But again that brings us back to the spent cartridge. 592 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: What happened to it? Did he make an attempt out 593 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: there in the middle of the night. Did he search 594 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: around and find that cartridge and take it with him 595 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 1: and maybe dispose of it in some way? Again, this 596 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: goes to preparation. You begin to think that he showed 597 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: up with gloves, he showed up with a weapon, He 598 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: showed up with duct tape of all things, and took 599 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: her out there in the middle of nowhere, I guess where. 600 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: He just kind of thought that no one would find her, 601 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 1: but you know, she was found within a month. One 602 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: last note talking about Gouche's older brother, Samuel. He was 603 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 1: arrested after he flew to Arizona from Wisconsin to pick 604 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: up that rifle from Gouche's friend, and again it was 605 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: the rifle thought to be used in the killing, and 606 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,800 Speaker 1: he was indicted by a grand jury on a single 607 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: felony charge of attempting to hinder prosecution. Mark Gooch ultimately 608 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: was convicted in the kidnapping and first degree murder of 609 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 1: Sasha Krause. He has been sentenced to life in prison. 610 00:37:51,480 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.