WEBVTT - Short Stuff: Milk Wars

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>Chuck and Jerry's here, and Dave is hovering over. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like a hologram of Obi Wan Kenobi, which makes this

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<v Speaker 1>short stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes us his only hope.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, boy, that's tough for Dave. Where his only hope? Sorry, Dave?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, we haven't talked too much. We talked

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit about the Mafia and stuff like that,

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<v Speaker 2>but I feel like we have a gap in our

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<v Speaker 2>sort of al Capone Chicago Mob sort of time frame,

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<v Speaker 2>like who are the what was the movie The Untouchables

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<v Speaker 2>that sort.

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<v Speaker 1>Of era, such a good movie.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't have a lot of that stuff. So this

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<v Speaker 2>is maybe the beginning of a little bit more of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. As

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<v Speaker 1>al Capone said.

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<v Speaker 2>Once that's right, then you got a knife in your back.

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<v Speaker 1>So our story actually takes place in nineteen thirty three.

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<v Speaker 1>That's when it although it lasted almost the entire decade

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<v Speaker 1>of the thirties, but by this time, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>so funny because this whole thing is associated with al Capone.

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<v Speaker 1>But if we were going to jump to the end

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<v Speaker 1>and put it at the beginning. Yeah, he probably had

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<v Speaker 1>almost nothing to do with this.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>The reason this Chicago milk War as it's called, is

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<v Speaker 1>associated with al Capone is because his direct descendants, his

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<v Speaker 1>proteges that took over when he was put into federal prison,

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<v Speaker 1>they were the ones who were involved in this. So

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<v Speaker 1>he had some sort of kind of like phantom supernumerary

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<v Speaker 1>hand involved, but no direct involvement.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Like if he wouldn't have been in prison, it

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<v Speaker 2>would have been al Capone running this milk war.

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<v Speaker 1>And it would have been ten times bloodier.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably, Yeah, you're probably right, But like we all know,

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<v Speaker 2>he was in prison for tax evasion, initially right here

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<v Speaker 2>in Atlanta and then eventually in Alcatraz, very famously. But

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about the milk war, like you were saying,

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<v Speaker 2>and this gets a convoluted because there's just a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of milk unions and delivery driver unions for milk, and

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<v Speaker 2>they all have similar names, and they most of them

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<v Speaker 2>are pretty good band names, so it gets a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit confusing. But we're going to do the best we

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<v Speaker 2>can to tell you how the mob in Chicago got

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<v Speaker 2>involved in the milk business. And one of the main

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<v Speaker 2>reasons is that FDR came along and the writing was

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<v Speaker 2>on the wall that prohibition was going to be repealed,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was really bad for the Mob because they

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<v Speaker 2>were making a ton of money with bootlegging and with

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<v Speaker 2>the speakeasies. So they're like, we need to divert we

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<v Speaker 2>need to diversify. So they said, how about milk. It's

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<v Speaker 2>pretty unregulated and under the radar, and we are already

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<v Speaker 2>in the food business a little bit. We've run the

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<v Speaker 2>we run the artichoke racket, which.

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<v Speaker 1>Was true crazy. That's the fact of the short stuff

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<v Speaker 1>right there.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that and the whisky on some cheese rackets. So

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<v Speaker 2>they already had the foot and the pro dairy and produce.

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<v Speaker 1>Business, right. So yeah, I guess milk is a logical

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<v Speaker 1>extension of those. I mean the cheese that makes sense too,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is surprising to go from booze to milk. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but it almost didn't matter what the product was. Sure

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<v Speaker 1>the Mob could figure out a way to completely upend

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<v Speaker 1>the industry. They were early disruptors, I guess you'd call

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<v Speaker 1>them in twenty ten speak. Yeah, but the way that

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<v Speaker 1>they did that was through like violence and intimidation, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's the first, the first tactic they tried when they

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<v Speaker 1>showed up at a guy named Steve Sumner's door, And

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Summner's door was the front door of the office

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<v Speaker 1>of the Milk wagon Driver's Union Local seven point fifty three.

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<v Speaker 1>And the reason why is because Steve Sumner ran that

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<v Speaker 1>he was the union leader, right, and you had said

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<v Speaker 1>this whole thing's kind of convoluted, it is. And the

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<v Speaker 1>reason why is because from what I can tell, there

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<v Speaker 1>was an uneasy working relationship between the different unions and

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<v Speaker 1>the different associations that all came together to heart to produce, buy, bottle, sell,

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<v Speaker 1>and distribute milk. And each one had their own competing

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<v Speaker 1>interests and they were all trying to work together. There

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<v Speaker 1>was some price fixing involved, there were some alliances that

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<v Speaker 1>were all uneasy. But then when the mob came in,

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<v Speaker 1>they came in kicking on the door and shooting down,

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<v Speaker 1>shooting tommy guns into this whole alliance, and it just

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<v Speaker 1>created this total chaos that had just been waiting to happen,

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<v Speaker 1>that the mob coming and really triggered.

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<v Speaker 2>And then some yeah, absolutely, because at the time the

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<v Speaker 2>milk prices were I guess you would say fixed, right,

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<v Speaker 2>is that the term. Yeah yeah, milk prices were set

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<v Speaker 2>or capped rather, and they had to use union representatives

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<v Speaker 2>to you know, to drive and deliver this milk, can

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<v Speaker 2>distribute this milk. The Mob of Chicago basically said, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>we're gonna get in on the ground floor. We're going

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<v Speaker 2>to buy an actual dairy, and they bought meadow More Dairies,

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<v Speaker 2>And that's how we're going to get into the milk industry.

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<v Speaker 2>And what we can do is then not have to

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<v Speaker 2>use union employees. We can bypass that fixed pricing and

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<v Speaker 2>we can undercut by a penny or two what everyone

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<v Speaker 2>else is selling it for and get all the milk

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<v Speaker 2>money ourselves.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and don't forget this is during the depression, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So a couple of pennies off of a bottle of

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<v Speaker 1>milk that was selling for eleven cents, Oh yeah, that

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<v Speaker 1>meant a lot. Like you, yeah, you could make a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty big deal. So there was price fixing, which is illegal,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Mob came in and undermined it by introducing

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<v Speaker 1>good old American competition to it, which is really weird.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why this whole thing is so hard to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of wrap your head around, because it all is totally nonsensical.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean I feel better because

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't figure out why. I couldn't really make the

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<v Speaker 2>most sense of this because it's not the most complicated story.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, they came to Steve Sumner eventually this guy

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<v Speaker 2>named Murray the Camel Humphries, who was one of Capone's fixers.

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<v Speaker 2>If you have a fixer, you're not a good person.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's just say that. Yeah, that means you're breaking things

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<v Speaker 2>if you need someone to fix things.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great, great slogan.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I should get that on a T shirt. Huh.

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<v Speaker 2>So they went to Sumner and said, hey, if you

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<v Speaker 2>and your union can just lay low for a little while,

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<v Speaker 2>let us hire these non union workers. We can sell

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<v Speaker 2>our stuff cheaper, and then you can make a big

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<v Speaker 2>deal about that, and you can protest that. Then we

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<v Speaker 2>can raise these prices again. And in exchange for this,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not gonna we're gonna offer you protection, which everyone

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<v Speaker 2>knows for the mob means we're not going to destroy

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<v Speaker 2>your milk trucks and firebomb your livery wagons.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And what's funny is like I can't remember the

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<v Speaker 1>spoof movie that this is in I want to say

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<v Speaker 1>top secret, but I might be wrong. Where somebody comes

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<v Speaker 1>in some like traditional like maybe gangster criminal comes in

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<v Speaker 1>and starts shooting up the place, and then all of

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<v Speaker 1>these like normal people like pull guns out of nowhere

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<v Speaker 1>and start shooting back unexpectedly. That's exactly what happened with this,

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<v Speaker 1>because the mob came in and said that they were

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<v Speaker 1>going to start breaking heads if everybody didn't fall in line,

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<v Speaker 1>and so all these people in the dairy industry, who

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<v Speaker 1>were allegedly legitimate went and bombed the mob's dairy the

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<v Speaker 1>moment they the moment they said that they were going

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<v Speaker 1>to do this, they went and bombed their dairy.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, I say we should take a break, because

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<v Speaker 2>that's a pretty remarkable thing. I'm going to I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to go with Johnny Dangerously. I'm not sure if that's

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<v Speaker 2>true or not.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that it okay?

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<v Speaker 2>But it seems like a likely candidate, And we'll come

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<v Speaker 2>back right after this.

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<v Speaker 1>Johnny Dangerously top Secret. It's virtually the same movie.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's just a guess.

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<v Speaker 1>Boy.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw Johnny Dangerously in the theater when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a kid. I thought it was, oh yeah, funniest thing

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<v Speaker 2>I've ever seen it hit? Some parts of it are

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<v Speaker 2>still pretty funny. I haven't seen in a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think it was. Yeah, Joe Biscopo, Michael Keaton,

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<v Speaker 2>you kidding me?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? The Dear, the dream Team is what they call that.

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<v Speaker 2>Griffin Dunn, yes, Master Chargia.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you know? Uh, he's Joan Didion's nephew.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, he's got a new book out.

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<v Speaker 1>Called I'm Joan Didion's Nephew by Joan Didion's nephew.

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<v Speaker 2>You dummy. Emily just got its supposed to be a

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<v Speaker 2>good read, so she's all into that.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you ever seen After Hours?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Yeah, of course, good movie. It's course azy baby, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>It was, but it's also like a kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>screwball comedy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, the only one he did really. Yeah, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>that's been movie crush. Oh I missed that show. Not

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<v Speaker 2>enough to do it again, though. So we're back. And

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<v Speaker 2>like you said when we left, I believe right before

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<v Speaker 2>I said, Johnny, dangerously, you said, these regular schmos started

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<v Speaker 2>bombing the mobs dairy, And that's what happened, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>just crazy and all of a sudden, you know, this

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<v Speaker 2>milk war has kicked off.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, so I said that there was like a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of different competing groups. There were the people who made

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<v Speaker 1>the milk. Those are the farm producers. Those are the

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<v Speaker 1>farmers who are like milking the cows, putting into huge

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<v Speaker 1>like canisters, and then selling it to the milk dealers.

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<v Speaker 1>The milk dealers have formed an association and they're the

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<v Speaker 1>ones who were fixing the price. They were saying, hey, farmers,

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<v Speaker 1>this is how much you're gonna get from milk. Don't

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<v Speaker 1>ask for anything more because everyone who's going to buy

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<v Speaker 1>it from you is in cahoots against you. Right, So

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<v Speaker 1>the farmers said, well, this is all crazy. We're just

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<v Speaker 1>going to go on strike. You're not going to get

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<v Speaker 1>any milk unless you guys start giving us a better price. So,

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<v Speaker 1>in addition to this group these people were arguing, there's

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<v Speaker 1>also another group that were involved, and they were the

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<v Speaker 1>stores that sold milk. Okay, they had milk for one

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<v Speaker 1>set price, and they could typically sell it lower lower

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<v Speaker 1>than other companies who used delivery drivers milk men to

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<v Speaker 1>deliver their milk directly to people's homes. Because there's that

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<v Speaker 1>added cost, and then on top of the added costs,

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<v Speaker 1>the milk drivers were unionized. That's what Steve Sumner represented,

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<v Speaker 1>and so they had like a contract with those companies

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<v Speaker 1>saying like, you're going to pay our drivers like a

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<v Speaker 1>good wage. And so there was competition between the companies

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<v Speaker 1>that used union drivers and the companies that just sold

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<v Speaker 1>it directly from stores, and all of them hated each

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<v Speaker 1>other because they were all beating one another up to

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<v Speaker 1>get as much of a margin of profit out of

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<v Speaker 1>the others as they possibly could, because the American public

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<v Speaker 1>were the ones who are like, we're not going to

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<v Speaker 1>pay that much for milk. You guys are gonna have

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<v Speaker 1>to figure this out yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Do you think the mob ever went up to

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<v Speaker 2>people and went you're going to be eating your granula

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<v Speaker 2>with water? Or did they have cereal by then or

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<v Speaker 2>were they still calling.

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<v Speaker 1>The Paul You remember at Kellogg's episode that was the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what I'm saying. That was like the early nineteen ten,

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<v Speaker 2>So they were calling it granula, but they called it

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<v Speaker 2>cereal pretty soon after, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I see what you mean. Sure, sure, probably, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder what the first one was, because I think

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<v Speaker 1>they called their corn flakes corn flakes pretty early on,

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<v Speaker 1>so they at least take corn flakes.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, let me do another take. Okay, you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to beat your corn flakes with cereal?

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<v Speaker 1>God, you want to take a third take?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, to take three?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, I'm going to add a line too. I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>improv the line. You're going to be eating cereal with

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<v Speaker 2>water like in the movie Fridays.

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<v Speaker 1>That's all.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you had to drink it or you had to

0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:17.200
<v Speaker 2>eat it with water.

0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:20.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy? Uh, where were we.

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:22.640
<v Speaker 1>We're talking about corn flakes?

0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, in the story, I know there was a band

0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.600
<v Speaker 2>name wanted to mention, the Pure Milk Association. Yeah, they

0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.040
<v Speaker 2>were one of the union's great band name Post Dealers.

0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:32.880
<v Speaker 1>What about that one?

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:33.880
<v Speaker 2>That's not too bad?

0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Milk Wagon Drivers Union. You know, we haven't taken a break.

0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:41.560
<v Speaker 1>You have? Oh we did? We did? Okay? Good?

0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Good, I mean we're we're supposed to be done

0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.760
<v Speaker 2>by now. So here's what happened. In nineteen thirty nine.

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.120
<v Speaker 2>There was an anti trust case that was going on,

0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.199
<v Speaker 2>basically with with this you know, monopoly that was happening,

0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.640
<v Speaker 2>and the court threw it out. As a district court

0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 2>judge that threw it out, I believe it was reinstated

0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.280
<v Speaker 2>by the Supreme Court later, but they avoided trial. The

0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.640
<v Speaker 2>DOJ said, you know what, if everyone signs and agrees

0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:13.680
<v Speaker 2>to this, then we can get this milk ore over.

0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:19.400
<v Speaker 2>The farmers and the unions. You gotta say that you

0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.280
<v Speaker 2>won't stop independent producers from marketing milk. There can be

0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:26.880
<v Speaker 2>independent producers, distributors. You can't fix your prices anymore. And

0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.480
<v Speaker 2>drivers you're a union. There's a lot of moving parts here. Yeah,

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 2>you can't hamper the store sales of milk. Like, I know,

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 2>you like delivering to people's houses, but distribution is the

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:37.600
<v Speaker 2>thing now, and you got to let that.

0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Happen, right, And so essentially what the Justice Department said

0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.320
<v Speaker 1>was you basically need to go the way that the

0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.920
<v Speaker 1>mob was trying to take this and go your separate

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:53.080
<v Speaker 1>ways and compete with one another, like be capitalists rather

0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:54.280
<v Speaker 1>than price fixers.

0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Exactly.

0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.160
<v Speaker 1>What's funny is there's a quote from Steve Sumner, who's

0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.040
<v Speaker 1>just befuddled by this antitrust case that was slapped against

0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.680
<v Speaker 1>him and some of the others. He's like, we're trying

0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.400
<v Speaker 1>to get the milk flowing again, Like we're just making

0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.400
<v Speaker 1>deals here, and they're like, you're price fixing that was

0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.880
<v Speaker 1>the problem in the first place, so stop doing that,

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 1>and I got the milk flowing again. I think in

0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:20.040
<v Speaker 1>nineteen forty the whole thing ended. That's right, pretty great stuff,

0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.120
<v Speaker 1>the Chicago Milk Oars featuring al Capone in name only.

0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:25.920
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Check said that's right twice everybody, and of course that

0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:30.200
<v Speaker 1>means short stuff is out.

0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.800
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0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.480
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0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.120
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