WEBVTT - Cara Knott 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.560 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:31.680 Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rossia Faccerrero. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.280 And I'm Evet gente Lay. This week we are talking 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.720 about the murder of Karen Not and this case is 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.920 it's a very surreal and creepy one because it's one 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.559 of those where you say, this could totally happen to 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.519 any one of us. It's when the person you trust 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.320 in to protect you ends up being the person you 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:56.560 should be the most afraid of. 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.040 Yeah, sadly, you're so, writ Evet. And of course, for 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.880 those of you who have been with us from episode 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:08.480 number one, this case, at least for Yvetni, reminds us 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:13.039 of our very first case from our hometown and Honolulu, Javaii, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:18.399 the cold case of Lisa Ao. And it's sad this 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.039 was only four years later after the case of Lisa 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.800 Ao happened Lisa Ao is still a cold case. She 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.520 was murdered on the side of the road in nineteen 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:31.320 eighty two and this happened in nineteen eighty six. But 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.680 there's differences in this one. And we get to talk 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:37.920 to an amazing expert who's going to walk us through 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.240 the entire case. And his name is Jim Treinam. He 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.840 is an expert in forensic evidence and criminal procedure and 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.840 he's going to talk to us about everything, and so 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:54.920 thankful he's such an open book and an open heart. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.960 Yes, and it's going to be an amazing conversation. But 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:02.960 now our Trevor is going to walk us through today's case. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:07.960 A twenty year old San Diego State student was murdered 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.000 by an on duty CHP officer in the North County. 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.760 The main unanswered question is is how she was able 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.880 to be either duped or or con in. Who's stopping 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:21.280 and we don't know why. It was two and a 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:24.120 half weeks after the murder that homicide detectives went to 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.320 pyrs Powway home and led him away in handcuffs. Every 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.480 day of the trial has been like attending Kara's funeral, 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.480 over and over and over again. 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.760 Karen Nott was a twenty year old woman who was 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.520 mysteriously found dead in nineteen eighty six in a ravine 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.280 near San Diego, California. Nott was a student at San 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.960 Diego State University. She had plans to get her doctorate 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.600 and become a teacher. On the night of December twenty seventh, 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.480 nineteen eighty six, she was visiting her boyfriend in Escondido 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.280 who was sick with the flu. Who knew Kara said 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.600 she was very considerate and often overly cautious. For example, 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.560 she always locked her doors and never picked up hitchhikers. 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.440 Just before eight pm that night, she called her parents, 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.360 who lived forty five minutes away, to let them know 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:20.040 she was coming home, but she never arrived. Kara Nott's 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.440 family set out to find her that very night. Around 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.840 five point thirty in the morning, they found her car 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.000 parked off of the Mercy Road off ramp. Three hours later, 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:34.000 police found her body strangled and thrown from a bridge, 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.200 but there was no sign of sexual assault or robbery. 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.800 The passenger door was locked, but the driver's side window 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:45.360 was partially rolled down. Earlier that night, a witness saw 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.320 a police officer pull over a car at the Mercy 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.400 Road off ramp. They described it as a VW light blue. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.920 Kara drove a white VW and just before ten pm 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.120 that night, two women said they saw a police officer 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.720 named Craig Pyre at a nearby gas station. He had 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.920 blood and scratches all over his face, and according to them, 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.640 he was acting incredibly nervous. When he returned to the 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:13.920 police station a half hour later, his co workers say 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.960 he was quote bloody and disheveled. He told them he 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.719 had slipped and fallen into a chain link fence while 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.760 getting gas. Pyre had been with the California Highway Patrol 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.479 for thirteen years, and by all accounts, his career was 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.200 the most important thing to him. Pyre's fellow officers called 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.560 him quote hot pencil. This was because he gave out 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.760 more traffic tickets than anyone else, about two hundred fifty 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.600 per month. He would often rant to his colleagues about 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.560 highway safety and keeping the public safe. Soon, though, it 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:46.920 was revealed that there were two sides to Officer Pyre. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:52.080 There was devoted police officer and something else, something more nefarious. 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.080 The California Highway Patrol was getting reports from young women 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.080 that he pulled over, saying he was engaging in off 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.320 putting behavior. After pulling them over, he would sometimes order 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.480 them to his favorite spot off the I fifteen Freeway. 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.840 At that point he would ask them about their love lives, 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.599 or sometimes get into their cars and take them on 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.840 rides deeper down a vacant lane called Mercy Road. Two 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.080 days after her murder, Officer Pyre appeared on a TV 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.000 news special giving tips on how to stay safe as 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:26.440 a driver at night. Scratches were still visible on his 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:31.039 face as he talked, and on January fifteenth, nineteen eighty seven, 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.680 Craig Pyre was charged and arrested for Karenat's murder. After 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.760 two trials, he was convicted and sentenced to twenty five 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.880 years to life. But to this day, Pyre, his family, 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.039 and his friends all claim he would never commit such 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:51.039 a violent act. However, others claim differently. And so what 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.920 happened to Karen Not? Was Officer Craig Pyre actually guilty? 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.440 And what does the debate surrounding his guilt tell us 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:06.120 about the reliability of evidence versus witness testimony? 0:06:06.240 --> 0:06:09.640 So the murder of Karen Not brings up a ton 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:14.279 of questions, questions about procedure, evidence. The list goes on 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.160 and on, and today we have an expert with us 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.040 on all of these things. His name is Jim Trainham 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.960 and he's a retired homicide detective for Washington, d C's 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:30.960 Metropolitan Police Department. But his resume goes far beyond that. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.320 He's written a book called How the Police Generate False 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.840 Confessions and he is a recipient of the Ethics and 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.359 Law Enforcement Award. Jim A. Komo may are welcome to 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:43.119 Facing Evil. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:44.480 Well, thank you very much. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.640 So I just told our listeners just a tiny bit 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.080 about you, but I am hoping that you can tell 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.720 us a little bit more about your career and how 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.480 you got started and how you got into doing all 0:06:58.520 --> 0:06:59.680 of this today. 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.920 Well, I spent over half of my twenty seven years 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.480 with PC as a police department in the homicide branch, 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:13.160 and what happened early in my homicide career actually shaped 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.800 the rest of my life, really and that was in 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.400 a very high profile case, one of the first cases 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.880 I had, I obtained a false confession from a totally 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:29.640 innocent person, and I did so using the standard interrogation 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.080 techniques that we were taught, and that would pass muster 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.040 in any courtroom in this country. And I wanted to 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.320 find out not only how did I convince this person 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.360 to confess to a crime that they didn't commit, but 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:47.000 also how did they know all the details about the 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.640 crime that, as we love to say, only the true 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.960 perpetrator would have known. And so that kind of started 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:59.080 me into looking into how things like confirmation bias and 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:05.240 other factors can adversely influence the way that we do investigations. 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:10.200 And so I began teaching other law enforcement officers how 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.560 to avoid the same mistakes that I made, and I 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:18.920 began working on other alleged wrongful conviction cases doing case 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.400 reviews in general, and yeah, I was just finding out 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.840 there is so much that when it comes to how 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:32.360 we analyze evidence, so oftentimes we make mistakes and the 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:37.000 way because of the way that we think and the 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.880 way that we process, and and also other pressures like 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.440 the pressure to close the case quickly and things along 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.680 that line. So since I retired in twenty ten, I 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:52.080 began to use what I learned in reviewing cases not 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:57.720 only active murder cases cold cases, but also cases that 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:03.120 were alleged wrongful convictions. Testified in several of those cases. 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.560 That's all around the country, and I continue to teach 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.640 and learn as well. I'm still taking classes. In fact, 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.240 I'm taking more coming up very soon from the UK 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.079 on basically how to think like a detective. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.440 Something we wow even though it's something you already know, 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.199 but you can always evolve and already learn. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.960 Right, there's so much out there that, like I said, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.080 we're basically taught the mechanics of how to do our job, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.320 but there's so much lacking in how to think about 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.280 how to do our job. And that's one thing that 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.080 they excel in and over there, and so I'm hoping 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.600 to use that in order to help create more training 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.080 programs and help improve long coork practices here in the US. 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.760 Beautiful. I love that, Jim. That's so powerful that you 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.200 said that, because you know you're retired, but yet you're 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:57.640 still evolving and still learning. And I just do have 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:00.160 one question. When you were talking about the technique. I 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.440 was listening to you on a podcast and it was 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:07.000 called the Trust and Justice podcast, and you were talking 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:11.960 about that particular technique, which was the read technique, And 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.360 is that what you were taught early on? You know, 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.240 in the very beginning when you got that false confession. 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.760 Yes, I was taught not only the read technique. But 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:23.640 you know, the thing is, there's a lot of different 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:28.320 interrogation schools out there, but the majority of them teach 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:33.839 a variation of it, and it's an accusatory approach, and unfortunately, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.200 the way that it's designed, they promote it as a 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.720 way of getting to the truth, but unfortunately, the way 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.320 it's set up, you're trying to get to the truth 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:47.280 that you believed it to be, and so what you're 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.640 looking for so much is not information but confirmation. And 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.240 if you happen to have the wrong person to begin with, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.000 then you know, that just sends you further down the 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:57.760 wrong path. 0:10:58.320 --> 0:10:58.640 Right. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:03.520 There's been this movement within the criminal justice system that 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.000 they're trying to set up what they call the sentinel 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:11.840 event reviews. It's like, if there is a failure of 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.640 some sort, either maybe a case goes unsolved or a 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:20.120 wrongful conviction, rather than look at the individual causes like 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.199 we're so good at and blaming individual people, we're trying 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.000 to look at the big picture because let's say, like 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.439 in my case, you know, yes I got a false confession, 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.640 but you know, let's also look at all the other 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.800 things that influenced my decision. At the time, there was 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:41.480 some faulty forensics or supervision pressure to close the case. 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.360 It is a high profile case, things along that line. 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.960 And so when you look at the big picture and 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:51.440 understand all the contributing factors and you're transparent about it, 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.480 then not only can you work to correct all of 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.240 those things that contribute it to the problem, but you 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.760 also gain more trust from the pals the cards. You're 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.000 willing to admit that, yes, we made a mistake, here's 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:05.600 a mistake, and this is what we're going to do 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.200 to fix it. I believe that's the way in the 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:12.880 future to go towards helping to resolve the trust issue 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:13.320 that we have. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:37.839 Absolutely, so let's just jump right into it. Let's talk 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:42.800 about Karen Not How familiar were you with this case? 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.160 You know, for us, like when we first started researching 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:51.400 this case, immediately you think the CHP officer he had 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.320 to have done it. Was that your first reaction as well? 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.960 Well, it's never my first reaction. I reviewed all of 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.679 the public information that's out there as much as possible. 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:04.679 I've dug into it as much as I can, and 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.319 so I haven't been privy to a lot of the 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.480 internal reports and things like that that oftentimes offer really 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.520 important nuggets. But when I start looking at a case, 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.880 I don't really have any preconceived notions as to whether 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.320 or not it's him. I'm going to look at the 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:25.000 evidence and see, first off, the evidence, was it obtained 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:29.320 reliably and was it analyzed properly because that's where you 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.400 tend to have your failures, and so going into it, Yes, 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:35.320 he was convicted and all of that, But I've worked 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.600 a lot of cases where it looks like a slam 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.600 dunk at the beginning, but once you get into the 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.000 nitty gritty of it, the evidence kind of starts to 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:48.160 not be as clear as people try to make it 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:48.560 out to be. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.000 So Jim, with all of that being said, full transparency, 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.320 I am married to a retired police officer. You know, 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.320 She's asked me not to say what cities she worked for, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.880 but she did work in the state of California. But 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.320 I was talking to her about this case and I 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.800 told her we were interviewing you, and I was like, Babe, like, 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.200 what do you think, Like do you think like one? 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.320 Like why would the DCHP officer you know, pull Kara 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.040 not over and like, why would he be driven to 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.760 do this and then go if he did do it right, 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:25.440 and then go right back to the rest of his shift. 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:29.400 And she told me, she said, you know, I feel 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.480 like it's more common than we'd like to think because 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.680 it's about power. And I was like, really, like it 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.040 just for me, my mind doesn't think that way. So 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.440 do you think that it is about power? 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:46.520 Looking at it at first, I try not to go 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.920 in there with that perception. That doesn't mean that I 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:50.080 haven't formed. 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.680 An opinion, right, you're a human, yes. 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.200 And the sports actually you know, have convicted him. Now, 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:58.640 this is a very circumstantial case. I mean, this is 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.320 old school they saw at the old school way. They 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:06.080 didn't have cell phone tracking stuff. You don't have surveillance videos, 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.120 you don't have you know, the DNA, all the stuff 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:13.320 that we rely on so heavily dissolved cases today, And 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.760 it is very circumstantial. However, it is a very strong 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:21.040 circumstantial case. Even if you want to discredit some of 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:26.360 the evidence that would no longer even be considered in 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:30.160 a court today, such as the evidence about the rope. 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.960 Forensic Dennis said that he was able to match the 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.320 rope that was found in the car to the marks 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.120 on her neck, and there were identical links and things 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.600 like that. All that stuff has pretty much been discredited. 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.040 I see, it's not you know, accepted as you know, 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:57.960 scientific evidence anymore. Fiber evidence is highly questionable, and there's 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.760 been a lot of abuse of finding about fiber evidence 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.240 in the pasting court. But even taking all that away, 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.840 my first thought is that, you know, this is probably 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.200 the first time he ever killed anybody. This is you know, 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.840 but we know, based on the evidence that he did 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:23.800 lure or did take several women down there, And if 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.560 I was a betting person, I would bet that at 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.800 some point in his career, you know, before all of this, 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.840 he actually engaged in sexual encounters down there, that this 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.040 was something that I mean, why would you keep doing it? Yeah? 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:40.160 Right, Yeah, that's the point. 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.960 If you failed, you know, each and every time, why 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.000 would you keep trying this? And in this case, something 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:54.000 just went wrong. Even though he was a patrol officer, 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.360 you know, he probably didn't have any comprehension about how 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.560 homicides are investigated about you know, what kind of clues 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.800 he could have left behind because he wasn't trained, He 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.880 didn't have any experience in that, and so I mean 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.159 he just panicked and he did his best to cover up. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.280 But he didn't have any other option but go back 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:16.040 to work. 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.040 Right, to continue on like normal. 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:23.560 But the fact is, though there were witnesses that actually 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:27.720 saw him. You know, there were people at the convenience 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.680 store of the gas station that saw him in there, 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.120 and they visibly saw scratches on his face. And there 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.399 was another witness that saw him take her down, you 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.480 know that Mercy Road or saw the car there. I mean, 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.600 doesn't that say like a whole lot right there? You know, 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.480 And then he goes on television and you know, gives 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.880 this statement with the scratches on his face. After he's 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:54.560 done this. 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.919 He probably didn't have much of an option. I mean, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.440 the scratches are there, and so he had explain them somehow. 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.359 I mean, he can't avoid that whatsoever. I mean, he 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.159 tried to cover his tracks. He tried to modify his 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.760 logs and things along that line in order to make 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.560 it look like he was somewhere else. He did what 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.800 he could. He did what he could to let's create 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:22.000 an alibi. However, some things he just could not hide. Yeah, 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:23.679 But like the TV thing. I mean, that was the 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:28.159 area that he patrolled. And so I suspect that his 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.000 supervisors just put him up and say, look, we want 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.639 you to do this. It's not like he volunteered for it, 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:36.160 and so he just had to put on a brave 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.920 face and go about it. And if he had refused 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.359 to do it, I think that would have caused more 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.920 immediate suspicion at the time. 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.359 Right. For sure. I do want to ask you, Jim, 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:50.240 and I know you were telling us about you know, 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.840 the fibers. Not that forensic evidence not necessarily holding up 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:59.320 in court today, but the other thing that I'm curious about, 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.159 so like would it be considered part of again, like 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.880 is this circumstantial evidence or is this actual forensic evidence? 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.800 The fact that Pire's blood type is a rare blood 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:16.760 type and is type AB and that was on Karra, 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:18.400 that's not just a coincidence. 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:24.280 Right, Well, there's also circumstantial evidence, because it's not like 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.679 DNA today where you can say, like the odds of 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:31.000 it being anybody else is one in however many trillion 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.600 quad grillion or whatever along that line. You know that 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.000 blood type is about eighteen percent of the population. Uh, 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.679 And so that's that's a lot of people that it 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:46.040 could be. However, the defense attorney fallacy they call it, 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.600 is when you look at an isolated piece of evidence 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:53.040 and you try to discredit it, like they did by saying, look, 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.280 I s eighteen percent of the population. There could have 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:57.600 been thousands of people who could have left, or millions 0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:59.719 of people who could have left that. But yeah, but 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.680 there weren't millions of people who were taking women down 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:08.840 into that area, who were acting inappropriately with them, who 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.160 were there that night, who did a B and C. 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.840 So all of that combined makes a very tight case, like. 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.960 The perfect storm. As one of our former guests told us, Yeah. 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:21.920 It's so interesting to me. You know, I just want 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.080 to talk about the fibers, like, because you know, we 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.679 do know that from his little badge, you know, on 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:33.560 his uniform, that yellow fiber was actually found on karra. 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:36.000 Why can't they use fibers? 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:36.199 Like? 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.560 What is the argument against it? I guess I should say. 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.119 The main argument is that one, it's kind of subjective, 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:47.200 it's based on a visual examination. That material could potentially 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.640 come from thousands of different sources and all of that. 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:54.200 But the problem has been is that examiners have overstepped 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.680 their bounds when they're testifying. Now, in this case, from 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.360 what I read, its pairs like, they didn't do that. 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.679 They said that they were visually similar. However, in the past, 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:10.000 other examiners have said, no, it's an exact match, or 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.199 I've never seen anything you know like this, right, and 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.960 so that's why, you know, fiber evidence what has led 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:21.439 to exonerations of the past, primarily because the examiners have 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:25.200 overstepped their balance, got it. However, in this case, from 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:29.560 my understanding, there was also the addition of the dye 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:34.760 in the fiber itself. The color die after matched up 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:39.560 right there. So not knowing anything about the die part, 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:42.680 you know, I would say that that that's a very 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:46.320 interesting piece of evidence right there, and so I'm not 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.160 really sure how admissible that would be today. But even 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.960 without that evidence, take the fiber evidence, throw it away, 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.200 you still have a yes, yes, I mean, I think 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:01.639 the behavioral evidence is one of the the strongest pieces 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:05.080 of circumstantial evidence. I mean, in looking at a diagram 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:08.440 of how the road was laid out and all of that, 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.399 him going down there on a regular basis, and really 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:16.240 there was no need for him to do that. I 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:19.399 would find fault with the supervisor at that point if 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:23.600 they had complaints, which they did, women down to that 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:28.000 isolated area. Well, first off, I mean for officers safety, 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.960 I don't know whether their policy is you're during that 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.320 time period. I was working as a uniform patrol officer 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.199 during that time period. If you had a traffic stop, 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:38.400 you called it in. 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.920 Right, That's what my wife was saying, Yeah. 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:47.000 You call it in because you want backup. Is for 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:51.360 your safety so that if something happens, they know who 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:53.440 you're stopping and where you are. 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.440 And he didn't do that in this case, if I recall, right, I. 0:22:57.359 --> 0:23:00.000 Don't think he did it in a lot of the cases. Yeah, 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.679 because you're not going to spend you know, thirty minutes 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:05.119 talking to somebody like you did with a lot of 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.760 these women and all of that, because your supervisor is 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.399 going to call you out. So that should have been 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.640 a red flag if he got complaints from at least 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.880 two women that I know of, that he was taking 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.720 them down to that. Look, Plus, you don't want to 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:25.720 get yourself in an isolated spot, you know, where it's dark. 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:30.439 That just increases the danger to you. Right outside of 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:32.800 everything else, that should have been a huge red flag 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:34.640 for them to go, wait a minute, you know, why 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:35.560 are you doing. 0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:38.920 This doing our research? There was even like a you know, 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:43.280 a joke with other officers, you know, other CHP officers that, oh, 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:45.919 you know, how many people did you pull over today? 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:47.640 He had a high rate, didn'ty. 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:52.000 Yeah, he was known for pulling over and especially women. 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:54.560 Well, that was also a different time. 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:56.680 Back then, true, it was the eighties. 0:23:56.800 --> 0:24:01.400 Yeah, I mean people would make jokes. Remember during that 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:05.320 time period or maybe maybe before, there was a dj 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:09.600 in DC that would do these a skit where it 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:14.680 would involve officers actually know, in certain terms, committing rape 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:18.239 during traffic stops. Yeah, they were making jokes about it, right, 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:21.040