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Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

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Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm Rossia Faccerrero.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Evet gente Lay. This week we are talking

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Speaker 3: about the murder of Karen Not and this case is

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Speaker 3: it's a very surreal and creepy one because it's one

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Speaker 3: of those where you say, this could totally happen to

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Speaker 3: any one of us. It's when the person you trust

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Speaker 3: in to protect you ends up being the person you

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Speaker 3: should be the most afraid of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sadly, you're so, writ Evet. And of course, for

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Speaker 2: those of you who have been with us from episode

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Speaker 2: number one, this case, at least for Yvetni, reminds us

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Speaker 2: of our very first case from our hometown and Honolulu, Javaii,

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Speaker 2: the cold case of Lisa Ao. And it's sad this

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Speaker 2: was only four years later after the case of Lisa

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Speaker 2: Ao happened Lisa Ao is still a cold case. She

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Speaker 2: was murdered on the side of the road in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty two and this happened in nineteen eighty six. But

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Speaker 2: there's differences in this one. And we get to talk

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Speaker 2: to an amazing expert who's going to walk us through

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Speaker 2: the entire case. And his name is Jim Treinam. He

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Speaker 2: is an expert in forensic evidence and criminal procedure and

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Speaker 2: he's going to talk to us about everything, and so

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Speaker 2: thankful he's such an open book and an open heart.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and it's going to be an amazing conversation. But

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Speaker 3: now our Trevor is going to walk us through today's case.

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Speaker 3: A twenty year old San Diego State student was murdered

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Speaker 3: by an on duty CHP officer in the North County.

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Speaker 4: The main unanswered question is is how she was able

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Speaker 4: to be either duped or or con in. Who's stopping

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Speaker 4: and we don't know why. It was two and a

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Speaker 4: half weeks after the murder that homicide detectives went to

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Speaker 4: pyrs Powway home and led him away in handcuffs. Every

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Speaker 4: day of the trial has been like attending Kara's funeral,

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Speaker 4: over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: Karen Nott was a twenty year old woman who was

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Speaker 1: mysteriously found dead in nineteen eighty six in a ravine

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Speaker 1: near San Diego, California. Nott was a student at San

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Speaker 1: Diego State University. She had plans to get her doctorate

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Speaker 1: and become a teacher. On the night of December twenty seventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, she was visiting her boyfriend in Escondido

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Speaker 1: who was sick with the flu. Who knew Kara said

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Speaker 1: she was very considerate and often overly cautious. For example,

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Speaker 1: she always locked her doors and never picked up hitchhikers.

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Speaker 1: Just before eight pm that night, she called her parents,

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Speaker 1: who lived forty five minutes away, to let them know

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Speaker 1: she was coming home, but she never arrived. Kara Nott's

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Speaker 1: family set out to find her that very night. Around

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Speaker 1: five point thirty in the morning, they found her car

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Speaker 1: parked off of the Mercy Road off ramp. Three hours later,

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Speaker 1: police found her body strangled and thrown from a bridge,

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Speaker 1: but there was no sign of sexual assault or robbery.

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Speaker 1: The passenger door was locked, but the driver's side window

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Speaker 1: was partially rolled down. Earlier that night, a witness saw

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Speaker 1: a police officer pull over a car at the Mercy

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Speaker 1: Road off ramp. They described it as a VW light blue.

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Speaker 1: Kara drove a white VW and just before ten pm

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Speaker 1: that night, two women said they saw a police officer

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Speaker 1: named Craig Pyre at a nearby gas station. He had

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Speaker 1: blood and scratches all over his face, and according to them,

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Speaker 1: he was acting incredibly nervous. When he returned to the

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Speaker 1: police station a half hour later, his co workers say

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Speaker 1: he was quote bloody and disheveled. He told them he

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Speaker 1: had slipped and fallen into a chain link fence while

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Speaker 1: getting gas. Pyre had been with the California Highway Patrol

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Speaker 1: for thirteen years, and by all accounts, his career was

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Speaker 1: the most important thing to him. Pyre's fellow officers called

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Speaker 1: him quote hot pencil. This was because he gave out

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Speaker 1: more traffic tickets than anyone else, about two hundred fifty

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Speaker 1: per month. He would often rant to his colleagues about

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Speaker 1: highway safety and keeping the public safe. Soon, though, it

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Speaker 1: was revealed that there were two sides to Officer Pyre.

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Speaker 1: There was devoted police officer and something else, something more nefarious.

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Speaker 1: The California Highway Patrol was getting reports from young women

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Speaker 1: that he pulled over, saying he was engaging in off

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Speaker 1: putting behavior. After pulling them over, he would sometimes order

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Speaker 1: them to his favorite spot off the I fifteen Freeway.

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Speaker 1: At that point he would ask them about their love lives,

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Speaker 1: or sometimes get into their cars and take them on

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Speaker 1: rides deeper down a vacant lane called Mercy Road. Two

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Speaker 1: days after her murder, Officer Pyre appeared on a TV

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Speaker 1: news special giving tips on how to stay safe as

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Speaker 1: a driver at night. Scratches were still visible on his

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Speaker 1: face as he talked, and on January fifteenth, nineteen eighty seven,

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Speaker 1: Craig Pyre was charged and arrested for Karenat's murder. After

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Speaker 1: two trials, he was convicted and sentenced to twenty five

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Speaker 1: years to life. But to this day, Pyre, his family,

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Speaker 1: and his friends all claim he would never commit such

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Speaker 1: a violent act. However, others claim differently. And so what

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Speaker 1: happened to Karen Not? Was Officer Craig Pyre actually guilty?

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Speaker 1: And what does the debate surrounding his guilt tell us

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Speaker 1: about the reliability of evidence versus witness testimony?

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Speaker 2: So the murder of Karen Not brings up a ton

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Speaker 2: of questions, questions about procedure, evidence. The list goes on

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Speaker 2: and on, and today we have an expert with us

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Speaker 2: on all of these things. His name is Jim Trainham

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Speaker 2: and he's a retired homicide detective for Washington, d C's

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Speaker 2: Metropolitan Police Department. But his resume goes far beyond that.

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Speaker 2: He's written a book called How the Police Generate False

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Speaker 2: Confessions and he is a recipient of the Ethics and

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Speaker 2: Law Enforcement Award. Jim A. Komo may are welcome to

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Speaker 2: Facing Evil.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: So I just told our listeners just a tiny bit

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Speaker 2: about you, but I am hoping that you can tell

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Speaker 2: us a little bit more about your career and how

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Speaker 2: you got started and how you got into doing all

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Speaker 2: of this today.

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Speaker 4: Well, I spent over half of my twenty seven years

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Speaker 4: with PC as a police department in the homicide branch,

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Speaker 4: and what happened early in my homicide career actually shaped

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Speaker 4: the rest of my life, really and that was in

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Speaker 4: a very high profile case, one of the first cases

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Speaker 4: I had, I obtained a false confession from a totally

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Speaker 4: innocent person, and I did so using the standard interrogation

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Speaker 4: techniques that we were taught, and that would pass muster

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Speaker 4: in any courtroom in this country. And I wanted to

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Speaker 4: find out not only how did I convince this person

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Speaker 4: to confess to a crime that they didn't commit, but

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Speaker 4: also how did they know all the details about the

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Speaker 4: crime that, as we love to say, only the true

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Speaker 4: perpetrator would have known. And so that kind of started

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Speaker 4: me into looking into how things like confirmation bias and

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Speaker 4: other factors can adversely influence the way that we do investigations.

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Speaker 4: And so I began teaching other law enforcement officers how

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Speaker 4: to avoid the same mistakes that I made, and I

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Speaker 4: began working on other alleged wrongful conviction cases doing case

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Speaker 4: reviews in general, and yeah, I was just finding out

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Speaker 4: there is so much that when it comes to how

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Speaker 4: we analyze evidence, so oftentimes we make mistakes and the

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Speaker 4: way because of the way that we think and the

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Speaker 4: way that we process, and and also other pressures like

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Speaker 4: the pressure to close the case quickly and things along

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Speaker 4: that line. So since I retired in twenty ten, I

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Speaker 4: began to use what I learned in reviewing cases not

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Speaker 4: only active murder cases cold cases, but also cases that

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Speaker 4: were alleged wrongful convictions. Testified in several of those cases.

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Speaker 4: That's all around the country, and I continue to teach

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Speaker 4: and learn as well. I'm still taking classes. In fact,

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Speaker 4: I'm taking more coming up very soon from the UK

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Speaker 4: on basically how to think like a detective.

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Speaker 2: Something we wow even though it's something you already know,

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Speaker 2: but you can always evolve and already learn.

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Speaker 4: Right, there's so much out there that, like I said,

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Speaker 4: we're basically taught the mechanics of how to do our job,

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Speaker 4: but there's so much lacking in how to think about

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Speaker 4: how to do our job. And that's one thing that

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Speaker 4: they excel in and over there, and so I'm hoping

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Speaker 4: to use that in order to help create more training

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Speaker 4: programs and help improve long coork practices here in the US.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful. I love that, Jim. That's so powerful that you

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Speaker 3: said that, because you know you're retired, but yet you're

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Speaker 3: still evolving and still learning. And I just do have

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Speaker 3: one question. When you were talking about the technique. I

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Speaker 3: was listening to you on a podcast and it was

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Speaker 3: called the Trust and Justice podcast, and you were talking

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Speaker 3: about that particular technique, which was the read technique, And

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Speaker 3: is that what you were taught early on? You know,

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Speaker 3: in the very beginning when you got that false confession.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I was taught not only the read technique. But

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Speaker 4: you know, the thing is, there's a lot of different

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Speaker 4: interrogation schools out there, but the majority of them teach

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Speaker 4: a variation of it, and it's an accusatory approach, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: the way that it's designed, they promote it as a

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Speaker 4: way of getting to the truth, but unfortunately, the way

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Speaker 4: it's set up, you're trying to get to the truth

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Speaker 4: that you believed it to be, and so what you're

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Speaker 4: looking for so much is not information but confirmation. And

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Speaker 4: if you happen to have the wrong person to begin with,

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Speaker 4: then you know, that just sends you further down the

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Speaker 4: wrong path.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: There's been this movement within the criminal justice system that

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Speaker 4: they're trying to set up what they call the sentinel

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Speaker 4: event reviews. It's like, if there is a failure of

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Speaker 4: some sort, either maybe a case goes unsolved or a

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Speaker 4: wrongful conviction, rather than look at the individual causes like

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Speaker 4: we're so good at and blaming individual people, we're trying

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Speaker 4: to look at the big picture because let's say, like

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Speaker 4: in my case, you know, yes I got a false confession,

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Speaker 4: but you know, let's also look at all the other

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Speaker 4: things that influenced my decision. At the time, there was

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Speaker 4: some faulty forensics or supervision pressure to close the case.

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Speaker 4: It is a high profile case, things along that line.

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Speaker 4: And so when you look at the big picture and

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Speaker 4: understand all the contributing factors and you're transparent about it,

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Speaker 4: then not only can you work to correct all of

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Speaker 4: those things that contribute it to the problem, but you

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Speaker 4: also gain more trust from the pals the cards. You're

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Speaker 4: willing to admit that, yes, we made a mistake, here's

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Speaker 4: a mistake, and this is what we're going to do

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Speaker 4: to fix it. I believe that's the way in the

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Speaker 4: future to go towards helping to resolve the trust issue

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Speaker 4: that we have.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so let's just jump right into it. Let's talk

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Speaker 3: about Karen Not How familiar were you with this case?

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Speaker 3: You know, for us, like when we first started researching

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Speaker 3: this case, immediately you think the CHP officer he had

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Speaker 3: to have done it. Was that your first reaction as well?

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Speaker 4: Well, it's never my first reaction. I reviewed all of

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Speaker 4: the public information that's out there as much as possible.

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Speaker 4: I've dug into it as much as I can, and

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Speaker 4: so I haven't been privy to a lot of the

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Speaker 4: internal reports and things like that that oftentimes offer really

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Speaker 4: important nuggets. But when I start looking at a case,

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Speaker 4: I don't really have any preconceived notions as to whether

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Speaker 4: or not it's him. I'm going to look at the

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Speaker 4: evidence and see, first off, the evidence, was it obtained

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Speaker 4: reliably and was it analyzed properly because that's where you

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Speaker 4: tend to have your failures, and so going into it, Yes,

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Speaker 4: he was convicted and all of that, But I've worked

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Speaker 4: a lot of cases where it looks like a slam

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Speaker 4: dunk at the beginning, but once you get into the

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Speaker 4: nitty gritty of it, the evidence kind of starts to

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Speaker 4: not be as clear as people try to make it

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Speaker 4: out to be.

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Speaker 2: So Jim, with all of that being said, full transparency,

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Speaker 2: I am married to a retired police officer. You know,

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Speaker 2: She's asked me not to say what cities she worked for,

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Speaker 2: but she did work in the state of California. But

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Speaker 2: I was talking to her about this case and I

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Speaker 2: told her we were interviewing you, and I was like, Babe, like,

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Speaker 2: what do you think, Like do you think like one?

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Speaker 2: Like why would the DCHP officer you know, pull Kara

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Speaker 2: not over and like, why would he be driven to

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Speaker 2: do this and then go if he did do it right,

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Speaker 2: and then go right back to the rest of his shift.

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Speaker 2: And she told me, she said, you know, I feel

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Speaker 2: like it's more common than we'd like to think because

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Speaker 2: it's about power. And I was like, really, like it

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Speaker 2: just for me, my mind doesn't think that way. So

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Speaker 2: do you think that it is about power?

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Speaker 4: Looking at it at first, I try not to go

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Speaker 4: in there with that perception. That doesn't mean that I

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Speaker 4: haven't formed.

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Speaker 2: An opinion, right, you're a human, yes.

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Speaker 4: And the sports actually you know, have convicted him. Now,

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Speaker 4: this is a very circumstantial case. I mean, this is

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Speaker 4: old school they saw at the old school way. They

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Speaker 4: didn't have cell phone tracking stuff. You don't have surveillance videos,

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Speaker 4: you don't have you know, the DNA, all the stuff

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Speaker 4: that we rely on so heavily dissolved cases today, And

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Speaker 4: it is very circumstantial. However, it is a very strong

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Speaker 4: circumstantial case. Even if you want to discredit some of

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Speaker 4: the evidence that would no longer even be considered in

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Speaker 4: a court today, such as the evidence about the rope.

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Speaker 4: Forensic Dennis said that he was able to match the

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Speaker 4: rope that was found in the car to the marks

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Speaker 4: on her neck, and there were identical links and things

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Speaker 4: like that. All that stuff has pretty much been discredited.

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Speaker 4: I see, it's not you know, accepted as you know,

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Speaker 4: scientific evidence anymore. Fiber evidence is highly questionable, and there's

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Speaker 4: been a lot of abuse of finding about fiber evidence

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Speaker 4: in the pasting court. But even taking all that away,

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Speaker 4: my first thought is that, you know, this is probably

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Speaker 4: the first time he ever killed anybody. This is you know,

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Speaker 4: but we know, based on the evidence that he did

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Speaker 4: lure or did take several women down there, And if

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Speaker 4: I was a betting person, I would bet that at

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Speaker 4: some point in his career, you know, before all of this,

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Speaker 4: he actually engaged in sexual encounters down there, that this

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Speaker 4: was something that I mean, why would you keep doing it? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's the point.

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Speaker 4: If you failed, you know, each and every time, why

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Speaker 4: would you keep trying this? And in this case, something

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Speaker 4: just went wrong. Even though he was a patrol officer,

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Speaker 4: you know, he probably didn't have any comprehension about how

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Speaker 4: homicides are investigated about you know, what kind of clues

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Speaker 4: he could have left behind because he wasn't trained, He

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Speaker 4: didn't have any experience in that, and so I mean

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Speaker 4: he just panicked and he did his best to cover up.

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Speaker 4: But he didn't have any other option but go back

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Speaker 4: to work.

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Speaker 2: Right, to continue on like normal.

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Speaker 3: But the fact is, though there were witnesses that actually

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Speaker 3: saw him. You know, there were people at the convenience

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Speaker 3: store of the gas station that saw him in there,

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Speaker 3: and they visibly saw scratches on his face. And there

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Speaker 3: was another witness that saw him take her down, you

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Speaker 3: know that Mercy Road or saw the car there. I mean,

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Speaker 3: doesn't that say like a whole lot right there? You know,

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Speaker 3: And then he goes on television and you know, gives

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Speaker 3: this statement with the scratches on his face. After he's

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Speaker 3: done this.

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Speaker 4: He probably didn't have much of an option. I mean,

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Speaker 4: the scratches are there, and so he had explain them somehow.

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Speaker 4: I mean, he can't avoid that whatsoever. I mean, he

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Speaker 4: tried to cover his tracks. He tried to modify his

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Speaker 4: logs and things along that line in order to make

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Speaker 4: it look like he was somewhere else. He did what

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Speaker 4: he could. He did what he could to let's create

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Speaker 4: an alibi. However, some things he just could not hide. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: But like the TV thing. I mean, that was the

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Speaker 4: area that he patrolled. And so I suspect that his

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Speaker 4: supervisors just put him up and say, look, we want

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Speaker 4: you to do this. It's not like he volunteered for it,

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Speaker 4: and so he just had to put on a brave

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Speaker 4: face and go about it. And if he had refused

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Speaker 4: to do it, I think that would have caused more

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Speaker 4: immediate suspicion at the time.

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Speaker 2: Right. For sure. I do want to ask you, Jim,

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Speaker 2: and I know you were telling us about you know,

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Speaker 2: the fibers. Not that forensic evidence not necessarily holding up

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Speaker 2: in court today, but the other thing that I'm curious about,

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Speaker 2: so like would it be considered part of again, like

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Speaker 2: is this circumstantial evidence or is this actual forensic evidence?

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Speaker 2: The fact that Pire's blood type is a rare blood

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Speaker 2: type and is type AB and that was on Karra,

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Speaker 2: that's not just a coincidence.

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Speaker 4: Right, Well, there's also circumstantial evidence, because it's not like

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Speaker 4: DNA today where you can say, like the odds of

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Speaker 4: it being anybody else is one in however many trillion

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Speaker 4: quad grillion or whatever along that line. You know that

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Speaker 4: blood type is about eighteen percent of the population. Uh,

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Speaker 4: And so that's that's a lot of people that it

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Speaker 4: could be. However, the defense attorney fallacy they call it,

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Speaker 4: is when you look at an isolated piece of evidence

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Speaker 4: and you try to discredit it, like they did by saying, look,

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Speaker 4: I s eighteen percent of the population. There could have

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Speaker 4: been thousands of people who could have left, or millions

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Speaker 4: of people who could have left that. But yeah, but

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Speaker 4: there weren't millions of people who were taking women down

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Speaker 4: into that area, who were acting inappropriately with them, who

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Speaker 4: were there that night, who did a B and C.

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Speaker 4: So all of that combined makes a very tight case, like.

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Speaker 2: The perfect storm. As one of our former guests told us, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's so interesting to me. You know, I just want

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Speaker 3: to talk about the fibers, like, because you know, we

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Speaker 3: do know that from his little badge, you know, on

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Speaker 3: his uniform, that yellow fiber was actually found on karra.

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Speaker 3: Why can't they use fibers?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: What is the argument against it? I guess I should say.

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Speaker 4: The main argument is that one, it's kind of subjective,

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Speaker 4: it's based on a visual examination. That material could potentially

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Speaker 4: come from thousands of different sources and all of that.

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Speaker 4: But the problem has been is that examiners have overstepped

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Speaker 4: their bounds when they're testifying. Now, in this case, from

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Speaker 4: what I read, its pairs like, they didn't do that.

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Speaker 4: They said that they were visually similar. However, in the past,

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Speaker 4: other examiners have said, no, it's an exact match, or

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Speaker 4: I've never seen anything you know like this, right, and

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Speaker 4: so that's why, you know, fiber evidence what has led

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Speaker 4: to exonerations of the past, primarily because the examiners have

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Speaker 4: overstepped their balance, got it. However, in this case, from

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Speaker 4: my understanding, there was also the addition of the dye

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Speaker 4: in the fiber itself. The color die after matched up

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Speaker 4: right there. So not knowing anything about the die part,

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Speaker 4: you know, I would say that that that's a very

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Speaker 4: interesting piece of evidence right there, and so I'm not

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Speaker 4: really sure how admissible that would be today. But even

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Speaker 4: without that evidence, take the fiber evidence, throw it away,

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Speaker 4: you still have a yes, yes, I mean, I think

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Speaker 4: the behavioral evidence is one of the the strongest pieces

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Speaker 4: of circumstantial evidence. I mean, in looking at a diagram

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Speaker 4: of how the road was laid out and all of that,

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Speaker 4: him going down there on a regular basis, and really

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Speaker 4: there was no need for him to do that. I

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Speaker 4: would find fault with the supervisor at that point if

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Speaker 4: they had complaints, which they did, women down to that

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Speaker 4: isolated area. Well, first off, I mean for officers safety,

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Speaker 4: I don't know whether their policy is you're during that

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Speaker 4: time period. I was working as a uniform patrol officer

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Speaker 4: during that time period. If you had a traffic stop,

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Speaker 4: you called it in.

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Speaker 2: Right, That's what my wife was saying, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: You call it in because you want backup. Is for

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Speaker 4: your safety so that if something happens, they know who

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Speaker 4: you're stopping and where you are.

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Speaker 2: And he didn't do that in this case, if I recall, right, I.

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Speaker 4: Don't think he did it in a lot of the cases. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: because you're not going to spend you know, thirty minutes

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Speaker 4: talking to somebody like you did with a lot of

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Speaker 4: these women and all of that, because your supervisor is

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Speaker 4: going to call you out. So that should have been

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Speaker 4: a red flag if he got complaints from at least

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Speaker 4: two women that I know of, that he was taking

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Speaker 4: them down to that. Look, Plus, you don't want to

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Speaker 4: get yourself in an isolated spot, you know, where it's dark.

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Speaker 4: That just increases the danger to you. Right outside of

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Speaker 4: everything else, that should have been a huge red flag

387
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Speaker 4: for them to go, wait a minute, you know, why

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Speaker 4: are you doing.

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Speaker 3: This doing our research? There was even like a you know,

390
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Speaker 3: a joke with other officers, you know, other CHP officers that, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, how many people did you pull over today?

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Speaker 2: He had a high rate, didn'ty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was known for pulling over and especially women.

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Speaker 4: Well, that was also a different time.

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Speaker 2: Back then, true, it was the eighties.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean people would make jokes. Remember during that

397
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Speaker 4: time period or maybe maybe before, there was a dj

398
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Speaker 4: in DC that would do these a skit where it

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Speaker 4: would involve officers actually know, in certain terms, committing rape

400
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Speaker 4: during traffic stops. Yeah, they were making jokes about it, right,

401
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Speaker 4: And so I mean, as horrible as that was, that

402
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Speaker 4: that was kind of like, you know, something that people

403
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Speaker 4: really didn't take seriously. They make kind of made fun

404
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 4: of it, right, and that kind of makes like I said,

405
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Speaker 4: it makes me believe that he was at least successful

406
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Speaker 4: in having some kind of sexual conquest in the past,

407
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Speaker 4: and that's why he continued to follow this pattern. Right,

408
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Speaker 4: So it was basically a shotgun effect, you know, he

409
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Speaker 4: would just try it and it worked at work.

410
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Speaker 3: So Jim, you know, one of our first episodes that

411
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Speaker 3: we did was a case in Hawaii about a young

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Speaker 3: woman by the name of Lisa Ao. And this was

413
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Speaker 3: in eighty two, and this is still an open case.

414
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Speaker 3: It had to do with supposedly a police officer or

415
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Speaker 3: somebody impersonating a police officer, where this young woman got

416
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Speaker 3: killed and she was left in the hills of Tantalus

417
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Speaker 3: and she was there for approximately about ten days. But

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Speaker 3: this goes to the question of forensics, right, there are

419
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: so many things that they did wrong in that case,

420
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Speaker 3: and now we're in eighty six with the Karenat case.

421
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Speaker 3: Right in that timeframe, would the forensics like had it

422
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 3: advanced at all in those four years, not all that much.

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Speaker 4: I think the disadvantage that you had in eighty two

424
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Speaker 4: was the fact that the body wasn't found for quite

425
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Speaker 4: some time.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, ten days is a long time.

427
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Speaker 3: And it was in the rain, and yes.

428
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Speaker 4: Yes, but you also had that gap between you know,

429
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Speaker 4: when she went missing and when she was found. And

430
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Speaker 4: here you didn't have much of a.

431
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 3: Gap at all, No, because her family went out searching

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Speaker 3: for her asaph.

433
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Speaker 4: And they had a lot of good luck. Yes, the

434
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 4: fact that she stopped at the gas station so they

435
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 4: were able to put up a timeline. But yeah, I

436
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 4: mean we were still I mean, stuff really had advanced

437
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 4: all that much during that time period. And also remember

438
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 4: different agencies had different provincic capabilities.

439
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's JUNO, LUPD or CHP very different.

440
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 4: I'd say, Yeah, we really don't have any kind of

441
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 4: standards across the country in law enforcement.

442
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

443
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: Is it still that way now, Jim?

444
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 4: It is still that way now. I mean it's not

445
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 4: like the UK, where they can come up with a

446
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 4: single set of operating procedures and best practices in all

447
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 4: of that. Here you've had eighteen thousand different kingdoms across

448
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 4: the country with different levels of capabilities, training and everything else,

449
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 4: and so sometimes it's just a look of a draw.

450
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true. Though you have to think about that,

451
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: like they did have so much luck. I mean, of

452
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 2: course you don't want to think about it's lucky to find,

453
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: you know, a beautiful young human dead. But at least

454
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: they were able to find Kara and seemingly get closure

455
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: because you know, Officer Pyre was convicted. But all of

456
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 2: that put aside, I am curious, Jim. I mean, you've

457
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: alluded to the fact of course we think that, you know,

458
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: Pire may have sexually assaulted other people, but for all

459
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: intents and purposes, he wasn't convicted of anything prior to this.

460
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: What do we think would make a seemingly I know,

461
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: there's no such thing as normal, but a seemingly normal

462
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: CHP officer be capable of this.

463
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: That's a hard question.

464
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 4: It's not really a hard question. You know. Uh, one

465
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 4: is power. Yeah, power, It's possible. Like one of the

466
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 4: first encounters was one that was consensual, and I mean

467
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 4: that is possible. And so he just got this idea

468
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 4: in his mind that you know, hey, there are women

469
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 4: out there who are turned on by this, by coops

470
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 4: and all that sort of stuff, and there are women

471
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 4: who are attracted to male police officers and also vice versa.

472
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 4: But so yeah, I mean they're attracted to the power

473
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 4: thing and all of that. But for him to have

474
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 4: killed her, like I said, I think that something just

475
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 4: went totally wrong. He had no plans. Yeah, there's no

476
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 4: indication that he got any plans to do this whatsoever,

477
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 4: or that he would have done have done this again

478
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 4: in the future unless he got kind of caught up

479
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 4: in this situation. I just think whatever happened. He panicked

480
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 4: and he did what he did, and he just did

481
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 4: not know how to cope with it afterwards. You can

482
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 4: really get away with murder, I mean if you really

483
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 4: think about it. I mean, a stranger on stranger cases,

484
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 4: no connection with them, make sure nobody finds the body,

485
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 4: you know, that sort of stuff. But he didn't have

486
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 4: time to do all that now, so he had to

487
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 4: do something because he was also an nerve conference raint.

488
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 4: You know.

489
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 3: Another thing that is really interesting is his family. You know,

490
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 3: his family really believed that he was innocent because they

491
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: truly believed that the evidence wasn't strong enough. What do

492
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: you think. I mean, I think we are all in

493
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 3: unison and of what we believe. But his family still

494
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 3: believes that he didn't do it because again, like you

495
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: said earlier, right, it was all circumstantial evidence.

496
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 4: Before I went to homicide, I work burglary cases, and

497
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 4: I loved working burglary cases because there are a lot

498
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 4: like serial killers, oh, because there's no witnesses. You know,

499
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 4: because a burglary makes it's careful. They don't have to

500
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 4: commit the burglary, and so they do it in such

501
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 4: a way that if there's a witness there go back

502
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 4: off or whatever. And so typically what you do is

503
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 4: you rely on forensics, and you rely on patterns and

504
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: things along that line, circumstantial evidence if you tie them

505
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 4: to the stolen property because they sold it, stuff along

506
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 4: that line. And so people think circumstantial evidence is a

507
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 4: dirty word. It really isn't. You don't need to have

508
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 4: an eyewitness. You don't have an eyewitness, and a lot

509
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 4: of murder cases true, true, So that's the best you

510
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 4: can do. But of course you know they believe them,

511
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 4: just like the confirmation. But the confirmation bias just just

512
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 4: a clarifying case that people don't understand. What it is

513
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 4: is when you get a belief and then you begin

514
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: to search for evidence that confirms that belief rather than

515
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 4: search for evidence that you know impartially and so you're

516
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 4: very selective. And so a lot of times you'll see

517
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 4: family members on both sides whatever they will kind of

518
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 4: cherry pick, you know, what they.

519
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 3: Want to hear and what they don't want.

520
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 4: To cherry pick, you know, or kind of well she

521
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 4: said this this time and this that time. Well it

522
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 4: might not be relevant, it might not make any difference.

523
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 4: But because they come up with a little indistress, a

524
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 4: little discrepancy. They think that wipes away, you know, all

525
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 4: of the evidence right there.

526
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, which of course it does not does not.

527
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: But I feel for them. I understand you know, uh,

528
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 4: what they're saying. And so they're victims too well of.

529
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 2: Course, of course, of course, yes, I couldn't agree more.

530
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: With all the cases that we cover on facing evil,

531
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,959
Speaker 2: we know that there's not only one victim. Ever, it

532
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: always affects all of the families involved, whether guilty or not.

533
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: And yeah, it can be heartbreaking at times, it absolutely is.

534
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: It is because it changes lives on both.

535
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 4: Ends, everybody's. But like in wrawful conviction cases and exonerations,

536
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 4: a lot of times you have the family members who

537
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 4: are just devastating. Yeah, because they have put so much

538
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 4: faith in the prosecution and in the police officers and justice.

539
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,239
Speaker 4: The potential for exonerations first comes up. That's who they

540
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: turned to. And so a lot of times the cops

541
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 4: in a prosecutor wo say no, this is BS, it

542
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: is trying to pull some shady stuff. There's actually organizations

543
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 4: out there now that work with family members who are

544
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 4: going through this just to kind of help them through

545
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 4: the process, which is a good thing because that's isolated,

546
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 4: and everybody was concentrating on the person getting exonerated, but

547
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 4: nobody was thinking about the victim and the victims.

548
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: Stanley, Yes, that's beautiful. I love the more support there

549
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 2: is out there for people going through anything. This especially,

550
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: I think is beautiful. Jim, I would like to ask,

551
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: with all of your expertise, can you tell us did

552
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: you agree with the final verdict.

553
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 4: Based on the evidence that I've seen. I do agree

554
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 4: with the verdict that you know there is that beyond

555
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 4: a reasonable doubt that he is guilty.

556
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: Certainly.

557
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 3: That's such an interesting question that Rasha ask And then

558
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 3: when you put that in there, because the fact is

559
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 3: that the jurors weren't they like seven to five the

560
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 3: first go around with him.

561
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: So funny because I've actually had cases where it was

562
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 4: eleven to one jury for a conviction and then the

563
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 4: second time around it was a straight up acquittal. Really wow,

564
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 4: I think is a lot of times people will ask

565
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 4: me during a trial, what is the jury thinking? What

566
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 4: do you think about? I have no clue.

567
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,479
Speaker 2: If you can understand every single human on the face

568
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 2: of the planet, then maybe you'll have a clue.

569
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, probably not even then, but so much of it

570
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 4: depends on their own personal experiences. You know, their own

571
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 4: you know, biases and things along that line, you know,

572
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 4: their own life stuff. But also oftentimes, and I hate

573
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 4: to say it, you know, the way the evidence is presented.

574
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 4: I know that they switched attorneys, and so all of

575
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 4: that comes into play. That's why the system is so imperfect.

576
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 4: It's also one of the reasons why you know, I'm

577
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 4: not a believer in the death penalty, because there's so

578
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 4: many variable that go into a jury's verdict. As much

579
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 4: as they're told you're only supposed to consider the evidence,

580
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 4: each person considers differently, you know, based off their life.

581
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, their own experiences.

582
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 3: We know that pire. He's been up for parole a

583
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: few times, right, and he's been given an opportunity to

584
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: present DNA to the Innocence Project. And I'll let you

585
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 3: speak to that, because I know you said you you've

586
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 3: worked with this particular nonprofit. But he has denied to

587
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 3: take it. Doesn't that say that I'm guilty?

588
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 4: Well, not only has he he refused to take it,

589
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 4: but he also refuses to give an explanation as to why,

590
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 4: Oh he hasn't said why it's a clarifisse. I think

591
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 4: there's not just one innocence project. There are multiple ones

592
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 4: around the country, you.

593
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 3: Know, Okay, okay, And I can.

594
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 4: See why, like, on the surface, they may want to

595
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 4: look at this case, especially when they start seeing things

596
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 4: like you know, the evidence about the marks on the

597
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 4: neck in the fiber stuff, they might want to consider it.

598
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 4: But when it comes to DNA stuff, I mean, that's

599
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 4: the low hanging fruit for them. And you wouldn't believe

600
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 4: the number of cases that I've worked where there is

601
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 4: DNA evidence that could be tested, but the prosecutor fought

602
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 4: it too thin nail, mainly because we have this belief

603
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 4: in this country that verdicts should be final, that the

604
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 4: family shouldn't have to go through this stuff once it's

605
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 4: done gone. So that's something that you always have to

606
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 4: fight against. So if he's being offered a chance to

607
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 4: do something that could really potentially clear him one hundred

608
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 4: percent and he's refusing, I think that's good circumstantial evidence

609
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 4: in and of itself, But like I said, he's not

610
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 4: giving a reason. And you know, the other thing going

611
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 4: against him is all of these people who have been exonerated,

612
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 4: who've been up for multiple parole hearings. One of the

613
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 4: reasons that they oftentimes were refused parole was that they

614
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 4: kept saying, no, but I didn't do it. They want

615
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 4: them to accept the responsibility, but they won't do it.

616
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 4: In his case, he still says that he won't do it,

617
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 4: but he doesn't take the chance that's offered to him.

618
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: To exonerate himself or to explain.

619
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 4: I say that, but it might come back inclusive just

620
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 4: because of the way the evidence was kept, or all

621
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 4: kinds of things that might not allow testing of the evidence.

622
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: You know, we always like to look for the light,

623
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: of course, on facing evil, and there have been a

624
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 2: few positive developments that came out of Kara's case. So

625
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: Sam Not, who was Kara's father, he lobbied to pass

626
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 2: a bill which at the time would have allowed women

627
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: motorists to stop at places that they felt more comfortable

628
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: or more safe being pulled over. Now, sadly, although it

629
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: didn't pass, I think it started the conversation. At least,

630
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:53,720
Speaker 2: what do you think.

631
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: I know that a lot of places, if you're pulled

632
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 4: over by an unmarked unit, that you're able to go

633
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 4: to a place that's well lit, that's safe. You know

634
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 4: that sort of thing, just because in the past they've

635
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 4: had people posing as police officers yep, who have the

636
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 4: lights and all that kind of stuff. Now, yeah, the car,

637
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 4: but the car isn't visibly marked. The problem is is

638
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 4: that you have a rogue coppier. So typically if you

639
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 4: have a unit that is highly marked as you know,

640
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 4: as a police officer, that sort of thing. But even

641
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 4: these days, you have the extra advantage of if you

642
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 4: are pulled over, you can get on your cell phone.

643
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: We did not have that in nineteen eighty six.

644
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 4: You did not have that. See one of the things

645
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 4: you can do. Okay, you're pulled over by the California

646
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 4: Highway Patrol, you can down nine one one saying I'm

647
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 4: being pulled over? Is this is this legit?

648
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: I love that.

649
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 3: I believe we can absolutely and you correct me if

650
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 3: I'm wrong. Give credit to Kara's father, Sam not again,

651
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 3: because he he fought for this. You know this eighty

652
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: three million dollar communication system that enforcement agencies now have

653
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: and emergency agencies have to help coordinate where you know

654
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 3: something may be going wrong. Unfortunately, you know, Karen didn't

655
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 3: have that back then.

656
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 4: I would not have been aware of any kind of

657
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 4: system like that that existed. So you know, once you

658
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 4: have a problem like this, and once you identify, just

659
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 4: like I talked about before, you can then come up

660
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 4: with solutions to the problem. And oftentimes, you know, law

661
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: enforcement unfortunately is very slow to responding. You know, they

662
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 4: kind of dig their heels in. They're going to blame

663
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 4: it on the one individual rather than realize that this

664
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 4: could be part of a larger problem, or if we

665
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 4: did have the system in place, then this one individual

666
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 4: couldn't have done this anyway. And so a lot of

667
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 4: times it does take pressure from family members, from the media,

668
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 4: from politicians, and all of them. Law enforcement. They hate

669
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 4: two things basically the way things are and change is.

670
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: That an oxymoron?

671
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 4: Absolutely, So they're going to be you know, we don't

672
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 4: have a problem because we fired them. Well, yeah you do,

673
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 4: because anybody else could you know, do this similar you know,

674
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 4: falling into this pattern of inappropriately pulling over women and

675
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 4: engaging in inappropriate conversations with them. So there's a system

676
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 4: to that not only protects the driver, but also protects

677
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 4: the officer as well.

678
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: I would love to know, because I see that that

679
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: glimmer and hope in your eyes. I would love to

680
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 2: know what light in the darkness of Care's story that

681
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 2: you can take away or give to our listeners.

682
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 4: Well, you know, one of the things that you had

683
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 4: mentioned earlier is to mention that the family got closure. Yeah,

684
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 4: and unfortunately. I mean I work with a lot of families,

685
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 4: especially in these unsolved bases and all that, and I

686
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 4: would meet with them on a regular basis and talk

687
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: to them. And one of the things I kind of

688
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 4: cautioned them about is, you know, you're looking for closure,

689
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 4: but it's not going to come because you know you're

690
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 4: going to get a conviction. You know they're going to

691
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 4: go to jail, and your loved when it is still dead. Still. However,

692
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 4: I encourage them, just like with her father, to try to,

693
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 4: you know, do something meaningful. Now. It doesn't have to

694
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 4: be as big an event as what he did. But

695
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 4: it's just like there's organizations out there to support organizations

696
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 4: for other you know, crime victims and you know family

697
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 4: members of homicide victims and things like that, and they

698
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 4: can help you with your pain. But you can also

699
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 4: turn around and share your experience with other people who

700
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 4: are also in that similar situation, and you can turn

701
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 4: this around and actually, you know, help somebody else and

702
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 4: do good and make that part of your loved one's memory.

703
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 4: I don't care what they were doing when they died.

704
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 4: I don't care you know about any of that stuff.

705
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 4: It's still a tragedy. And you can still improve somebody's

706
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 4: life or improve the system. Yes, still going that extra mile.

707
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 4: Body together and working as a group.

708
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: So beautifully said, paying it forward and working together. Jim,

709
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 3: It's been a true honor to have you on this show.

710
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 3: Thank you for being here with us today.

711
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 4: Well my pleasure and I hope that I did add

712
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 4: something to this case and kind of explained a few things,

713
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 4: and thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

714
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: Today's EMA is dedicated to Kara's parents, Sam and Joyce,

715
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: and the entire no Ohanna. After her death, Kara's father,

716
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 2: Sam Knott, successfully lobbied for a bill that allowed women

717
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 2: to stop at places they felt most comfortable when being

718
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: pulled over. Instead, the state Senate voted in a bill

719
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,839
Speaker 2: that further punished drivers for not pulling over us directed sadly.

720
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 3: But Sam Knott he persisted, and he convinced several local

721
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 3: law enforcement agencies to change the way they handled nighttime

722
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 3: stops for women.

723
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: And because of Sam Knot's work, San Diego County now

724
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 2: has an eighty three million dollar communication system that allows

725
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 2: law enforcement to communicate with emergency services in a way

726
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: that wasn't possible on the night.

727
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 3: That Kara was killed. And the memorial nature preserve where

728
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 3: he planted and raised oak trees from acorns is still there.

729
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 3: It is called the Kara Nut and San Diego Crime

730
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 3: Victim's Oak Garden.

731
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 2: Today's final message of hope, and he goes out to

732
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: the memory of Sam Knot as well as to Joyce

733
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 2: Nott and the rest of the family who, in the

734
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 2: aftermath of the worst tragedy of their lives, persisted for justice,

735
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:29,479
Speaker 2: persisted for hope, and persisted for humanity. Onward and upward. Emua, Emua. Well,

736
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 2: that's our show for today. We'd love to hear what

737
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: you thought about today's discussion and if there's a case

738
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: you'd like for us to.

739
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 3: Cover, find us on social media or email us at

740
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,959
Speaker 3: Facingevil pod at Tenderfoot dot tv.

741
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: And one small request if you haven't already, please find

742
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and

743
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: a good review.

744
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 3: If you like what we do.

745
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: Your support is always cherished.

746
00:44:53,160 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 3: Until next time Aloha.

747
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and tenderfoot TV.

748
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Peccuerero and Avet Gentile.

749
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf

750
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald

751
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of

752
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.

753
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on

754
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.

755
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the

756
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

757
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: favorite shows,