1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, Welcome 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: back to the show. I'm not wearing a hat, here 6 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: wearing pants, though I am wearing pants. My name is Matt, 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: my name is North. They called me Ben. We are 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: joined as always with our super producer, Paul Mission Controlled Decond. 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. This 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: is a wartime episode. As we record today's episode, the 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: United States of America is still in the middle of 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: the longest war in the country's history. That means there 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: are literally people listening to the show today who were 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: not alive when this war began. Think about that. The 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: United States invaded Afghanistan on October seven, two thousand one, 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: and we are still there as we speak. Why how 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: much did our leaders know and when did they know it? 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: To answer that, oddly enough, even though this country has 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 1: been at war in this other country for the better 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: part of two decades, many people, many voters, aren't a 22 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: hundred percent sure what Afghanistan is, where it is, and 23 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: why it's such a big deal. It's also now the 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: first time we've been engaged there. No no, no, no, no. 25 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: Uh this uh, this has an interesting name. First things first, 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: here are the facts. Afghanistan is located in what is 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: commonly called Eurasia, right the vast stretch of land between 28 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: Asia and the continent we call Europe. It's landlocked. It's 29 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: bordered by some greatest hits countries in the rogues gallery 30 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: of the United States, historically Pakistan, Iran, Tajikistan, Zbekistan, and China. 31 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: It's capital is a place called Kabul. Outside of several cities, 32 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: the country is extraordinarily rural. We're talking places that are 33 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: simply physically hard to access in the mountains or in 34 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: the rugged wilderness. The country itself was not officially formed 35 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: until seventeen o nine, but as you alluded to, Matt, 36 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: it has a history, a long and bloody history of 37 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: being a battleground. In fact, Afghanistan is sometimes called the 38 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: Graveyard of Empires due to just the sheer number of 39 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: militaries that tried and failed to control it. And it's 40 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: an interesting thing there because and just when we're talking 41 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: about it's the battle ground, right, the place where the 42 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: wars or fought or the battles are fought. And generally 43 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: controlling the area is kind of the goal. But a 44 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: lot of times and and this is what we're going 45 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: to kind of outline here, is that it's the land, 46 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: the place where two different warring powers end up where 47 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: they just kind of go right. So it's not it's 48 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: not as though Afghanistan itself is rising up to you know, 49 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: fight a lot of the battles. It's generally it's where 50 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: proxy wars happen. It's where, Um, it's interesting. We're gonna 51 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: we're gonna continue on with this throughout the show. So 52 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: let's just keep going down into the history of Afghanistan. Okay, 53 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: let's do a little ancient history, shall we. Okay, So, 54 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: experts believe that early humans were living in Afghanistan as 55 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: long as fifty thousand years ago because it was rich 56 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: soil for farming. Um. There were communities of farmers in 57 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: Afghanistan that were some of the very earliest farmers in 58 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: the entire world. Um. And for a time the area 59 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: was known as Ariana, or the land of arians. This 60 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: is because multiple waves of people from Central Asia migrated 61 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: to the region Uh and many of these settlers were 62 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: in fact Arians. They were speakers of the parent language 63 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: of Indo European languages. Um Arians also migrated to Persia 64 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: and India in those prehistoric times. And then let's jump 65 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 1: to the sixth century when the Persian Empire of the 66 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: Achimenid dynasty controlled Arianna and Uh, good look saying Achimunid, 67 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: it's really fun and to to look at. And right 68 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: in about three thirty b C, the little guy you 69 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: might remember named Alexander the Great defeated the last ruler 70 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: of the Achimenid uh dynasty there and he made his 71 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: way to the eastern borders of the place that it 72 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: was called Arianna. Now after this guy, old Great Alexander 73 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: himself died in three hundred and twenty three BC in 74 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: his early thirties, feeling that he was a failure. By 75 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: the way, Yeah, I know that Alexander. He sure was great, 76 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: wasn't he. I mean he was he was a guy. 77 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: He was a guy. He did great things, did some 78 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: huge stuff. Whether it was great or terrible is depending 79 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: on which side of the battles you were on. Some 80 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: large scale stuff. Let's leave it in. Okay, that's yes, 81 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: there we go um so he he died three BC. 82 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: All these other kingdoms they were out there. Listen to 83 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: name them off here, the Salu kids maybe Seleucids, Salut kids, 84 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: the Bactria, and the Indian Mauran Empire. They all were 85 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: fighting to attempt in an attempt to control this territory 86 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: there was known at the time as Ariana. So understandably 87 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: there were a lot of folks jockeying for position and 88 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of power grabs, situations in the vacuum. Yes, 89 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: the history of Afghanistan involves a ton of handoffs and 90 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: power grabs, with a lot of names that might be 91 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: unfamiliar to you know, unless you have specifically studied this history. 92 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: So strap in, we're just gonna do some high It's 93 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: a lot of these empires are no longer around and 94 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: the names will sound unfamiliar. In the seventh century A. 95 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: D or c. Whichever way you want to go with that, 96 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: Arab armies carried this brand new religion of Islam to Afghanistan, 97 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: and the western provinces of Herat and Sistan came under 98 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: the rule of these Arab forces. But the people of 99 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: these provinces revolted. They returned to their old pre existing 100 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: beliefs as soon as uh these military forces were not 101 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: you know, literally using violence to make them pretend to 102 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: practice Islam. In the tenth century, Muslim rulers called Samanids 103 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: from Bukhara and what's now is Pakistan extended their influence 104 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: into the afghan area. And this this kind of when 105 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: we see extending influence, it means that there was a 106 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: soft hegemony, but you know, expanding. Their people started to 107 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: use uh, the currency of those rulers. They started to 108 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: speak similar languages, they acquired their culture. So the Samanid 109 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: established the dynasty in Gasni called the Gaznavids. And again 110 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: matt president with that pronunciation. We do not speak these languages. 111 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: The greatest of the Gaznavids was a king named Mahmoud 112 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: who ruled from to ten thirty. He is the one 113 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: most responsible for establishing the solid foundation of Islam throughout 114 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: the area of modern day Afghanistan. He led a lot 115 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: of military expeditions into India. Even back then, people started 116 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: thinking of uh of of Afghanistan too as the gateway 117 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: to these kingdoms of India. That state falls in the 118 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: middle of the twelfth century to the Gurid Kingdom, which 119 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: arose in gur that's a west central old region of 120 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: present day Afghanistan. Those guys get kicked out early in 121 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: the thirteenth century by another Central Asian dynasty, and these 122 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: folks are all swept away around twelve twenty by Jengis Khan, 123 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: that Genghis Khan guy that's actually called Jengis Khan. I 124 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: like to call him Jangi. Jeni k jang Ki reminds 125 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: me of that tower game Jengaeh. And so we include 126 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: we we include some of this ancient history because it's 127 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: important to know that already it's twelve twenty. Already two 128 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: of the greatest conquerors in the world have come through 129 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: this place, and now a third one appears. Near the 130 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: end of the fourteenth century, the Central Asian military leader 131 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: tim or Lang or the Lame Timore, also known as 132 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: tamer Lane in the West, conquered Afghanistan and he immediately 133 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: moved on to India. And when he moved on, his 134 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: his children and his descendants couldn't hold the empire together. 135 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: They couldn't rule everything. Their grandfather, their patriarch, took over, 136 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: but they were able to keep a hold on Afghanistan 137 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: roughly for a little while. And now we get to 138 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: where it eventually becomes an independent nation, as we said, 139 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: you know, in seventeen hundreds becomes independent. But there's a 140 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: story behind that too. There's even more switching off. People 141 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: are trying to control this. They're dying left and right. 142 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: And we're gonna talk about, let's say, a strategy. He's 143 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: something that's gonna ripple across time here that occurs in 144 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century. The King of Persia around that time, 145 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: a guy named the dear Shaw. He was employing this 146 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: tribe of Pashtuns. They're a Dolli tribe of Pashtoons, and 147 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: he was using them in his wars in India. So 148 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: he's he's got a contingency of other fighters. I wouldn't 149 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: call them mercenaries, but they're they're fighters for under another flag, 150 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: essentially fighting under his flag. Right, and uh Ahmad Shaw, 151 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: this of Dolli chief who had gained this high post 152 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: within the army there he established himself after the deer 153 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: Shaw's assassination, that the guy we're talking about the King 154 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: of Persia, after he was assassinated in seventeen forty seven. 155 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: So Ahmad Shaw is, you know, looking to move up 156 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: a little bit, and thankfully this assembly of tribal chiefs 157 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: proclaim him the new Shaw. And then the Afghans extend 158 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: their rule as far east as Kashmir and Delhi, and 159 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: then north to the Amu Daria and west into northern Persia. 160 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: So they really just begin expanding there under the rule 161 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: of Ahmad Shah. Yeah, and he retires from the throne 162 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: in seventeen seventy two. He's one of the few people 163 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: with the distinction of retiring. He dies in Kandahar. He 164 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: has a son, tim or Shot, who assumes control the 165 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: Afghan Empire survives mostly intact through the next twenty years. Now, 166 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: think about that time, Yeah, seventeen seventy two. America is 167 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: forming right right in this time period here increasingly irritated 168 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: colonists half a world away, our dreaming of revolution and saying, hey, 169 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: one day there will be a popular Broadway play about us. 170 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: And you may be wondering, rightly, so what does all 171 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: this have to do with me? When does all this 172 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: obscure Eurasian history have to do with me? When does 173 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: my team enter the game? A lot of people in 174 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: the Western wondering, well, there is an entire era of 175 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: history involved heavily involving Afghanistan that concerns just this. It's 176 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: called the Great Game. We did an episode on this earlier, 177 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: longtime listeners may recall. But let's look like, let's what's 178 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: the quick and dirty. The Great Game is world dominance. Really, 179 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: that's what it is. It's a bunch of extremely powerful 180 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: countries and people deciding, Hey, I want to maybe be 181 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: the ruler of all this. Um, let's see what we 182 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: can do. But there are all these other people trying 183 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: to do the same thing. So we have to play 184 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: these mind games and diplomatic games and resource control games. Yeah. So, 185 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: for most of the nineteenth century eight to be precise, 186 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: the British and Russian Empires were vying for control of 187 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: Central and South Asia, including the country of Afghanistan. Um. 188 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: This period was known, as you mentioned matt as the 189 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: Great Game, where both empires were trying to protect and 190 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 1: secure their own territories they already held and also expanding 191 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: outward into others. Britain was a huge player in this game, 192 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 1: and that they were very concerned that Russia might take 193 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: control over India. Which was the crown jewel of the 194 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: British Empire. Um. Despite the fact that Russia this wasn't 195 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: really something that they had designs on. But um, you 196 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: know Britain that you gotta protect what you got, and 197 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: they were maybe be a little paranoid. Um. Afghanistan became 198 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: once again, as you mentioned Matt, a very fertile battleground. Right. 199 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: You can see, Uh, you can see some excellent fiction 200 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: based on this period of time, a work by Richard Kipling, 201 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: intensely problematic author. But I would I would say a 202 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: talented poet. Uh. He wrote a novel called Kim, which 203 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: is about a child becoming embroiled in what they later 204 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: learned is the Great Game Roderid Kipling. Of course it 205 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: would be Uh. I would be remiss not to mention 206 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: this is the person. Uh is the person most responsible 207 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: for the phrase white man's burden. So he's not a 208 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: good dude. But that was a well written book. A 209 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: series of conflicts transpired in real life, not just in 210 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: the book. And these are these are breaking out two wars, 211 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: but they don't really turn into world wars at this point. 212 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: One of these conflicts, the Second Anglo Afghan War, which 213 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: was from eighteen thirty eight to forty two, ended in 214 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: a treaty that gave Britain control of Afghanistan's foreign affairs, 215 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: so it turned into a vassal or a puppet state 216 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: until UH nineteen nineteen, when Amunala Khan declared independence from 217 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: British influence. He tried to have introduce some social norms UH, 218 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: such as abolishing the practice of product which UH is 219 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: the is the idea that women should not be allowed 220 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: to be seen or interact in public. So he was 221 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: a more forward facing leader in some social regards UH. 222 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: He was trying to do that. He was trying to 223 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: He ended up fleeing the country in nineteen nine. People 224 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: did not really people are not receptive to this change. Next, 225 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: Zahir Shah becomes king and for the following four years 226 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: Afghanistan is a monarchy. In nineteen fifty three, a guy 227 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: named General Mohammed Daoud became Prime minister. He turned to 228 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: the Soviets, to the U S. S R. He said, 229 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: help me out with the economy, help me out with 230 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: military assistance. Also, I want to introduce some social reforms, 231 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: including the abolition of p DA. He was forced to 232 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: resign in nineteen sixty three, it's a tenure rule there. 233 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: But in nineteen seventy three he regained power in a 234 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: coup and he said, okay, now we're a republic, and 235 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: he said, you know what I get. I get the uh, 236 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: the trend of history here. So I'm gonna try to 237 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: play these world powers against one another. It doesn't work 238 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: the way he wanted it to, because just a few 239 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: years later, in nineteen seventy eight, he is murdered or 240 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: assassinated in a pro Soviet coup. There's a new governing faction, 241 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: the new kids on the block in this situation, and 242 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: the People's Democratic Party it come to power, but they 243 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of infighting in their own, jockeying for 244 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: position in the hierarchy. And then of course they are 245 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: eternally battling the Mushadeen groups that are backed by Uncle Sam. 246 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: That is was at one time seen as controversial. That 247 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: is clearly a proven fact. And let's pause for word 248 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and then we'll get to the modern history. 249 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: So the Soviet era, Paul, can we get some kind 250 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: of you know, like really authoritarian sounding big but yeah, 251 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: that kind of music. There we go. Soviet era yes, 252 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: so the U. S. S R. It's uh, it's in 253 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: Afghanistan in nineteen seventy nine, and it really is trying 254 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: to show were up this newly established regime, right that 255 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: we talked about the People's Democratic Party that's running things 256 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: over there, and those guys are by the way in 257 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: the capital Kabul, And in short order, nearly a hundred 258 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: thousand Soviet soldiers took control of a lot of the 259 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: major areas, the cities, the highways, the ways, things are 260 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: being transported, all by all means. And here's the thing 261 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: people didn't really take to that. There was rebellion. It 262 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: came quickly. It was all over the place. The Soviets 263 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: were dealing harshly with the Mujahadeen rebels and the people, 264 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, the families, the the small groups that were 265 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: supporting them. They were just taking out entire villages. Again, 266 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: it like sounds so familiar of the course of our history, 267 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: of the things we've talked about. Um, they're they're trying 268 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: to deny any place where or that would be considered 269 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: a safe haven for enemy soldiers to be hanging out 270 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: and you know, regrouping. And while this is happening, there 271 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: are outside foreign supporters who are propping up all of 272 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: these diverse groups of rebels that are fighting back against 273 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, playing the great game once again exactly 274 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,360 Speaker 1: that that whole um the proxy the proxy battle thing 275 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: is in full effect here. And you know you've got 276 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: rebels poorting from Iran, Pakistan, China, the the US even 277 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: has some people over their training folks um and having 278 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: fighters over there. And there's this brutal nine year conflict 279 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,400 Speaker 1: that just goes on and on and on, and an 280 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: estimated one million civilians are killed in this conflict, Afghanistan 281 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: civilians as well as others UM. And there are also 282 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: ninety thousand Mujahadeen fighters, eighteen thousand Afghan troops and four 283 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: fourteen thousand, five hundred Soviet soldiers, all of them who 284 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: are killed in this But in this these battles, in 285 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: this conflict, and the US support varied in in any 286 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: different ways over the course of this conflict. That we 287 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: do have to remember this is Cold War era stuff, right. 288 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: So so originally they had some suits and some agents 289 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: from the company uh the right, right, right, and it 290 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: starts with it does and uh And by six they 291 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: were becoming more um, they were being less subtle Uncle 292 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: Sam was UH. They started supplying Stinger missiles to the Mossadin, 293 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: which we're a game changer because these Stinger missiles allowed 294 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: people on the ground to shoot down Soviet helicopter gunships 295 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: in UH four countries, Afghanistan, the USSR, Pakistan, the US 296 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: signed peace accords, and the Soviet Union says, okay, we'll 297 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: start pulling out troops. The last of the troops leave 298 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: the next year in ninety nine, and UH civil war 299 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: consumes the country, which should not have surprised anyone. Let's 300 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: talk really quickly about some of the landscape there and um, 301 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: the mountains, the mountain ranges, the mountains areas, the very hilly, 302 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: UH sometimes very stark areas where if you know, as 303 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,479 Speaker 1: the Mujahadeen, if you're given something like a Stinger missile 304 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: when you're just troops on the ground, it's very difficult 305 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: to battle against something like these Soviet gun ships, the 306 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: helicopters that can roll through. They can just travel across 307 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: these landscapes to wherever they need to be in there, 308 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: heavily armed. But you know, if you're on the ground 309 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: as just a single person or even a battalion, small 310 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: battalion anywhere from a hundred to ten people. Um, fighting 311 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: back against the gun ship is very, very difficult. But 312 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: if you're given a stinger missile and you can hide 313 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: out somewhere within you know that terrain, you can easily 314 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: have an upper hand there. And again, these are ripples 315 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: throughout time of things that we are going to see 316 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: where an explosive in the hands of somebody that understands 317 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: the area, that has lived there. Um, you only need 318 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: a few people to gain the upper hand on large 319 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: military forces. Well, it's one of those things where you 320 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: see it. I mean, it's even like sn L sketches 321 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: from the time and going back and watching a lot 322 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: of Will Ferrell sketches from those days, and there's the 323 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: one where he's the old prospector. You know, you've seen this. 324 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 1: It's great, but it's well, Chris Catan is playing the 325 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,679 Speaker 1: sargen or whatever, and he keeps making the joke that 326 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: it's an unconventional, unconventional war, so I got to use 327 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: unconventional methods, which in the sketches having an old prospect 328 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: or to lead them through the terrain. But it's true, 329 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: that's what they're talking about. That's the thing you've heard 330 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: thrown around constantly in the news was what an unconventional 331 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: war was and required unconventional tactics. Yeah. And in this case, 332 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: and an old prospector, how to forget the premise with 333 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: an old prospector who was like a cousin of somebody 334 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: who was in command of the military, isn't gonna do 335 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: you much good. You need somebody who has lived there 336 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: and knows the history and the terrain. Yeah. And also 337 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: for the record, Uh, the old Will Ferrell sketches in 338 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: general hold up, not saying that because he's technically a 339 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: coworker of hours, just saying it, because they do hold 340 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: up pickle shoes, sentiment, and gravy. So who comes out 341 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: ahead in this next iteration of the power vacuum. That 342 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 1: would be a group known as the Taliban. They seize 343 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: control of Kabul by seven they have they have a 344 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: solid grip on about two thirds of the country, and 345 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: they're starting to be recognized in the international sphere. Pakistan 346 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:40,479 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, for instance, both recognize the government until that is, 347 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: the US enters the Great Game as a full on combatant. 348 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: And it's different because before proxy wars, right, let's call 349 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: these people rebels. Yeah, yeah, and uh so fast forward. 350 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: As we said at the top, in October of two 351 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: thousand one, US led bombing of Afghanistan begins. And this 352 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: is right after the attacks on September eleven, two thousand 353 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: one on the US soil anti Taliban Northern Alliance forces Intricable, 354 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: pretty much right after and this marks the official beginning 355 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: of what has become the longest war in US history. 356 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: Across the next eighteen years, multiple precedents, three different administrations 357 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: from both sides of the US political divide, would continually 358 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: escalate the conflict. They would send more troops, they would 359 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: proposed what they called surges. They would vow we were 360 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: making progress in a war that we knew we could win. 361 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: Today's question, what if they were lying? Here's where it 362 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 1: gets crazy. So behind the scenes, everyone knew, all of 363 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: the decision makers knew this was a disaster. And Matt, 364 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: you recently had a conversation that touched on some of this. 365 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: Is that right, Yes, quite a bit. And I spoke 366 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: with the gentleman named Steve Hooper that I very much 367 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: want to have on the show. We want to have 368 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: on this show. Um I I forget his exact titles 369 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: within the FBI, but he was a high level person. UM. 370 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: I hope he doesn't mind me saying his name. He 371 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 1: has a podcast on the I Heart network that he 372 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: uh talks about some of this stuff, so I think 373 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: it should be okay. But he was just talking to 374 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: me about how the United States was keeping was aware, 375 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 1: very much aware of one Osama bin Laden and uh 376 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: Taliban forces and you know, after all of the the 377 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: conflicts and help that we've essentially given to that area. Um, 378 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: and we know our intelligence agencies know a lot of 379 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: the operators, we know a lot of the mechanisms that 380 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: that exists out there with some of these forces. They 381 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: also knew just from past bombings like the nine attack 382 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: on the World Trade Center where a rider truck was 383 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: used and thankfully did not destroy the entire building then 384 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: in but it was certainly a disaster and a terror 385 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: attack and a major, a major warning sign basically that oh, 386 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: we need to be paying attention to this. And he 387 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: was just telling me that after that attack in ninety three, 388 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: the intelligence apparatus is were so aware of it. However, 389 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: we went right back to the FBI at least went 390 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: right back to focusing on drug gangs and drug cartels 391 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,479 Speaker 1: that existed, and we're operating within the US, and they 392 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: didn't turn their eyes towards terrorism at that point because 393 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: there was a lot of siloing of information and gate keeping. Right, yes, 394 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: because again, you think about operating outside of the U 395 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: S where intelligence is gathered, operating inside the US a 396 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: lot of times it's separated, and there this whole thing, 397 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: it kind of became a mess, at least according to 398 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: Stephen our conversation, after you create the Department of Homeland 399 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: Security and as that giant behemoth of organizations begins trying 400 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: to keep tabs on things like that and organize, you know, 401 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: who's controlling what, who's looking into what? Um, I say, 402 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: a mess, but that's not true. Anyone who's out there 403 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: working in any of these organizations, you know that's not 404 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,959 Speaker 1: necessarily true. But it was certainly the birth pains of 405 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 1: something bigger. Oh that's poetic. I like that, Yeah, it's 406 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: it is. It is unfortunately true that many of the 407 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: same people publicly touting progress in this quagmire, we're often 408 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: the very same people lamenting the doomed situation, at least 409 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: doomed as they saw it behind closed doors. We know 410 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: this is not a conspiracy theory. We know this is 411 00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: indisputably true. Thanks to the fantastic journalistic f and the 412 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: of the Washington Post and the recent publication of something 413 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 1: called the Afghanistan Papers. On December nine of this year, 414 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: the Washington Post finally won a legal battle that was 415 00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: three years in the making and like the war in 416 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: Afghanistan continues today. But what did they get? What happens 417 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: we'll tell you after a word from our sponsor. So, 418 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: three year legal battle, Washington Post acquires more than two 419 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: thousand pages of quote lessons learned end quote. Uh. And 420 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: these are interviews that were connected by the Office of 421 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction or cigar give me 422 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: I love a good cigar. Um, and uh, it's not 423 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: pretty what's uncovered here. There was no internal consensus on 424 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: any objective, any reasons for going to war. The country 425 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: was spending billions of dollar ours with no idea whatsoever 426 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: what any kind of end game looked like. Um. They 427 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: literally had no idea how to get out of the war. 428 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: There was no excess strategy. Well yeah that if you 429 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: guys recalled back. And this was just to date myself 430 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: a little bit. This was occurring right around the time 431 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: that I was going to be finishing and graduating from 432 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: high school. As all of these conflicts are occurring, as 433 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: the debates about this stuff is happening, and I remember 434 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: for the first time, not for the first time, but 435 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,719 Speaker 1: maybe for the first time looking at the news with 436 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: a little more understanding of history. After some classes that 437 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: I was taking and hearing people discussed this, they would 438 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: argue on the news like, well, what what is it? Actually? 439 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: What does this conflict? Actually? What does victory mean? What 440 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: does it look like? And you have even the president 441 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: coming on and kind of giving you a vague you know, 442 00:28:54,840 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 1: it's a victory, you know it's it's good, We're gonna victory, right, 443 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: what does that mean? Yeah? The thing is that there 444 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: was not There were some metrics for ideas of success, 445 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: but there was nothing that people agreed on with concrete steps. 446 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,959 Speaker 1: There was no universal definition. And without a universal definition, 447 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: as uh chinuab would say, things fall apart. The post 448 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: got hundreds of memos that are really they're almost like 449 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: they're almost like YouTuber Reddit comments from Donald H. Rumsfeld. 450 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: They were called and this has nothing to do with 451 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: the current usage of the word today, but they were 452 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: called snow flakes. You know, that's a more of a 453 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: right wing um pejorative on the internet today, But in 454 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 1: this case, they were called snowflakes because they would just 455 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: sort of be sprinkled on all these communications, brief instructions 456 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: or comments that the that Rumsfeldt would tell his employees 457 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: during the course of his time working on the war. 458 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: And there are things that are so informal, like there's 459 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: there's one where it says, I'm not sure who the 460 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: enemies are here, like we don't know we're shooting at 461 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: someone for sure. So all together, these memos and these 462 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: two thousand plus pages revealed by this Freedom of Information Act, uh, 463 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: they function as a genuine secret history of what we 464 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: know about the war. And some people taking a longer 465 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: view of history would say, well, this is just another 466 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: act in the ongoing war that has been occurring on 467 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: the land of Afghanistan for much much longer than eighteen years. 468 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: But here's where we learned the reports. The journalist and 469 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: the analyst at the Washingt Post found for common and 470 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 1: disturbing themes running throughout these papers, and they're pretty brutal 471 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: to hear, but We looked through them, and they are 472 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: well researched and there's not a ton of editorializing. So 473 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: every single year covered by these papers, US officials, at 474 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: least some of them, purposefully refused to tell the public 475 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: the truth about the war. In some way or another, 476 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: they would issue these pronouncements, they would say stuff that 477 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: they straight up knew wasn't true, and they would hide 478 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: unmistakable evidence that for one reason or another, the war 479 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: had become unwinnable, which was an odd concept of it 480 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: being winnable or unwinnable, because it just didn't seem like 481 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: there was one or the other. Right, Chocolate rations have 482 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: been increased, right, uh, and now they're going to be 483 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: eighty percent less than they were. So they also in 484 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: these papers we see that officials who were interviewed and 485 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,479 Speaker 1: again this this was all internal documentation, and so they 486 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: wanted to tell the truth. They they depicted purposeful, explicit 487 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: efforts by the US government to mislead the public. And 488 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: then they also it's you could describe it, and maybe 489 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: this is a little bit too much editorial voice here, 490 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: but you could describe it as a sort of collective 491 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: disbelief in the facts, kind of cherry picking the stuff 492 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: that would be good, ignoring the stuff that would run 493 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: counter to the narrative. So everybody is like, everybody's doing 494 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: a thing where they're like, all right, we're going to 495 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: all agree that this is fine. Everything's great, We're gonna win, 496 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: and stuff is gonna be good afterwards. You know what, 497 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: You know what that guy who said the house is 498 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: on fire, what he meant was is worm and cozy 499 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: in here. Just look at this banner. What does it 500 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: say mission accomplished, We're done? Look at that sweet bomber jacket. 501 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: I mean, look at that shrut, that confident gait that 502 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: the president has. I mean, seriously and again it's it's 503 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: funny because people who consider themselves domestic political partisans in 504 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: the US, uh, Like someone who would definitely hate the 505 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: right side of American politics would be uh would levy 506 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: valid inviting criticism of the misleading pr that the Republicans 507 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: side was doing when they had a presidential administration, And 508 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: then people who hated the left side would levy the 509 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: same again valid criticism at the Democrat administrations because they 510 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: were doing the same thing. All that changed was the 511 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: brand names on the facts. It was still a bucket 512 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: of poison pills. They just had different labels. Dude, you're 513 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: so right though, And I remember seeing that we're going 514 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: to have a surge, right, and a surge will fix 515 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: But that's okay. So that's just one deliberate, at the 516 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: very least at the most generous, deliberately misleading the public, 517 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: who is, by the way, paying billions of dollars for this. 518 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: And here's the thing we kind of mentioned of above. 519 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: This is number two. By the way, the officials from 520 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: you know, the United States and the Coalition of Forces 521 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: the Allies that we're going into Afghanistan with us, they 522 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: pretty much admitted openly that the mission had really no 523 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: discernible strategy, like, we don't know there's there, doesn't seem 524 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: to be a strategy. We've got a lot of people there, 525 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: there are a lot of troops there and some facilities 526 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: that were building. Um, but yeah, we really don't have 527 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: great objectives. We were not sure what we're doing there. 528 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: Stuff on the on the level of like, well, have 529 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: you guys talked to Todd, because Todd put it really well, 530 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: like I remember walking out of a meeting and I 531 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: was like, this is for sure what we're doing and uh, 532 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: I just can't I can recall it right now. He 533 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: just seems so confident and everything. You know, that's he's 534 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: just he's he's such a he's got such a good haircut. 535 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I just love the cut of his jacket. 536 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: You can tell him man like he goes to a manicure. Absolutely, 537 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: his cuticles are impeccable, and you just you can't really 538 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: disbelieve a guy like that. So, as far as I 539 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: was concerned, if Todd's good, we're good, right, Yeah, you're right. Um, 540 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: hopefully hopefully Todd can just keep us keep that morale up, 541 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, and the interviewers like Todd, who I think, 542 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: Oh that's a great Uh, you got disappeared. There are 543 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: a lot of he worked. He worked somewhere in the building. 544 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: It may have been the subway. He may have been 545 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: a general. I just look at you guys. You'll know 546 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,439 Speaker 1: him when you see him. It's true. At first, there 547 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,919 Speaker 1: was this pretty solid rationale they were going to we're 548 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: aiming to destroy al Gaeda, who was you know, we're 549 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 1: involved in these various terrorist acts, not just being accused 550 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: of involvement in the September eleventh attacks, but also being 551 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: active in attacks throughout the nineties that you mentioned earlier, 552 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: Matt with certain leaders with names that you might know 553 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: or people that were purportedly a part of them. Yeah, 554 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: but Todd would never do that. Once once al Qaeda 555 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: have been you know, largely muzzled, the officials involved said 556 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: they had mission creep. The goals got muddy and unclear, 557 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: and they began adopting strategies that might contradict the strategies 558 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: of other agencies or institutions, and they started having goals 559 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 1: that were unattainable. And people who were running this war, 560 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,959 Speaker 1: folks are dying, billions of dollars going down the drain. 561 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: The people in charge were saying, I have problems with 562 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: basic questions. Who is the enemy here? I am not 563 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,360 Speaker 1: being hyperbolic when Donald RUMs held said that who is 564 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: the enemy here? Who amidst these various complicated groups? Uh? 565 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: And alliances? Can we count on as allies? And also, 566 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, I know it's a weird question, drop it 567 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: for thirty on a Friday, But how do we know 568 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: when we've won? Yeah, there's there's no bell that goes off, 569 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: like or specific person you have to defeat or a 570 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: king to overthrow, you know, there's no goal post like that. Yeah, 571 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: And it turns out that the Third Revelation, years into 572 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: the conflict, the United States still had a very poor 573 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: understanding of of the country overall. Officials from not just 574 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: the US but also from the Afghan government told interviewers 575 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: that allow out of the policies and initiatives coming from 576 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam, everything from like training Afghan forces to trying 577 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: to I'm going to say it again, trying to whosh whoosh, 578 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: trying to stop the opium trade. All of them felt 579 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: like they were designed to fail. Whether that's because of incompetence, 580 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: because they were based on flawed assumptions, or whether because 581 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: there was some sort of ulterior motive, or whether it 582 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,919 Speaker 1: was just a country they did not understand, or you know, 583 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to put my biases on it, but 584 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 1: a country that maybe some of those people in charge 585 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: just didn't care about at a certain level. There are 586 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: disturbing accounts or allegations and interviews in some of these 587 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: papers where an officials say something like we were just 588 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: giving consultants tons of money, and you know, somebody would 589 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: fly on a plane and they would read the Kite 590 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: Runner or something while they were on the plane and 591 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: they would out, and I think that they understood everything 592 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: about this place that has been a battleground for centuries 593 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: and centuries and has been trod upon by one outside 594 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: empire after another, the fourth one, which clearly is a 595 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: bit of a cheap scape. Myself, I've been having a 596 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: hard time not mentioning this. Yet the US flushed billions 597 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: and billions and billions of dollars down the geopolitical drain 598 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: trying to nation build in Afghanistan. Nation building is a 599 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: risky endeavor that can pay great dividends if you get 600 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: it off the ground. It was once called colonialism. That's 601 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: building a different kind of nation. But that's I mean, yes, 602 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: so they wanted to I don't know, they were just 603 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: so out of out of touch with what was happening, 604 00:39:53,840 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: so they there's this, there's this great comparison. Or similarly, 605 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: in the accounts of the early days here, it was 606 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: an economic boom from the military industrial complex, obviously for 607 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: the associated energy and defense industries. It was a boom 608 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: contractors of course. Uh. And we can just say like 609 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: that was immediately affected by these September eleventh attacks and 610 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: the public acceptance essentially that yeah, we should probably protect 611 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: ourselves more and spend a lot more money than we 612 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: were sure, So we'll pay for it. You handle the details. 613 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,240 Speaker 1: I want to feel good when I see the news 614 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: and feel like I've done my part. So since so 615 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: here's the here's the similar. One of the sources says 616 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: money is like water. In Afghanistan was like a desert, 617 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: and when you pour too much water too quickly, the 618 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: land cannot absorb it and it becomes a wash. With 619 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: this money, and that that struck me because if it 620 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: not only does it feel true, but it has the 621 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,919 Speaker 1: unfortunate quality of being true. Since two thousand and two, 622 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 1: the US has allocated more than eighty three billion dollars 623 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: in security assistance to Afghanistan that dwarfs the defense budget 624 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: the entire defense budget of other developing nations. At two 625 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: thousand eleven alone, at the peak of the war, this 626 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: country got eleven billion dollars in security aid from Washington. 627 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: That's three billion more than what Pakistan, which has nuclear 628 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: weapons in a way bigger army, spent on its entire 629 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: military that year. That's nuts. They spent eight billion, and 630 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,719 Speaker 1: the US gave Afghanistan eleven billion. Now, I do want 631 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: to say, it may sound like we're being unfair here, 632 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: we have to remember that the military operators people were 633 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: for the US government and the contractors involved, they're not 634 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: in these rooms. They're not in these uh these board rooms, 635 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: in these war rooms and so on. They're being sent 636 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: to a place to risk their lives, and they are 637 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,279 Speaker 1: they are trying to save people on the ground, you 638 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,359 Speaker 1: know what I mean, They're trying to help civilians, they're 639 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: trying to prevent these deaths. Yes, But the other side 640 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: of that coin is that the almost the feeling of 641 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: a goalless occupation like that caused a lot of situations where, 642 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, a few a small amount of those contractors 643 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: and military personnel felt as though or at least acted 644 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,719 Speaker 1: as though there was no rule of law, there were 645 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: no rules. Things could happen there. And I think it's 646 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: because that top down guidance just didn't exist. Well, we 647 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: talked to about how you know, maybe this is hyperbolic, 648 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: and I've heard people kind of poop to this idea, 649 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: but comparing Afghanistan to Vietnam, in the sense that it 650 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: was very difficult terrain, it was an enemy that they 651 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: didn't fully understand, uh, and it seemed to have empowered 652 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: a lot of military personnel to commit sem atrocities. Right, 653 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: we also have to consider I think that is I 654 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: don't think that's not based comparison. We also have to 655 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: consider that a lot of the horror stories we hear 656 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: came from the crimes of private contractors, So people are 657 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: working private industry that have been subcontracted out by the U. S. 658 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,439 Speaker 1: Government or NATO, or they come from people who were 659 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be the authorities in in like from Afghanistan. 660 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: So you know, there are there are stories which are 661 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: true of military service members being brigged uh and in 662 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: danger of being dishonorably discharged because they refused to tolerate 663 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: the sexual abuse of children which they saw firsthand, not 664 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,479 Speaker 1: in not in some like, not in some sketchy part 665 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: of town necessarily, but like in the police chiefs compound 666 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: in the police station, or having to make nice with 667 00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: warlords and crack a deal with them because of their 668 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: influence over you know, a region of the area. Adjusted 669 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: for inflation and for just as they say talking Turkey 670 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: for perspective, eleven billion US dollars is more than the 671 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: US spent in the entirety of Western Europe with the 672 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: Marshall Plan after World War Two. Think about that the entirety. 673 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: But after almost two decades of help from Washington, or 674 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: attempts to help from Washington, the Afghan army and the 675 00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: police force are still not probably not going to be 676 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: capable of fending off all these insurgents. It's not just 677 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 1: the Taliban, it's it's I asked, the Islamic State and 678 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: others without outside assistance, without backup from the U. S. Military. Um, 679 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,439 Speaker 1: I just want to jump in there really fast before 680 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: we keep going. Just two. We mentioned the Marshall Plan, 681 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: which was the program, and we mentioned it was after 682 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: World War Two as well. But that was a program 683 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: of aid, right that we that we gave to most 684 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: of or a lot of Europe just to rebuild after 685 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: the battles were fought in that region, just putting up 686 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, and thank you. So back to 687 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: the money, which I promise I'll I'll stop harping on 688 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: at some point. It's just like it's crazy, Yeah, what 689 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: could eleven billion dollars do you know what I mean? 690 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: Superpowers could be rocked, there could be brought into life. 691 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:58,120 Speaker 1: There was so much money flowing that bribery, fraud, and corruption. 692 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 1: They became superpowered as as tendencies and trends. One advisor 693 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,839 Speaker 1: who was working for the US said that when he 694 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,760 Speaker 1: was working in this particular air base, many Afghan people, 695 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: mean native Afghan people who are working there regularly rereaked 696 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: of jet fuel because they were just smuggling so much 697 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 1: of it out to sell on the black market. And 698 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: then we have another point about corruption within the police force, 699 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: and this this comes from an interviewee who was comfortable 700 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: being named. Yes. And one interviewed Thomas Johnson, who was 701 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,360 Speaker 1: a Navy official serving as a counter insurgency advisor in 702 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: Kanadahar Province, said that the Afghans viewed the police as 703 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,800 Speaker 1: predatory bandits uh. He called them quote the most hated 704 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: institution in all of Afghanistan um. And then another interviewee 705 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: and unnamed Norwegian official told interviewers that he estimated thirty 706 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: of Afghan police recruits deserted with their government issued weapons 707 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: so they could quote set up their own private checkpoints 708 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,959 Speaker 1: a k A highway robbery, right, literally just extorting people 709 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: that were traveling through what they were doing, right, And 710 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: the other statements these officials make don't don't sound pretty, 711 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,919 Speaker 1: but of course we you know, we have to point 712 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,120 Speaker 1: out again that part of this is a maybe a 713 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: function of the shifting goal post, right, But to not 714 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,319 Speaker 1: know who your enemies are and not know who the 715 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: difference from your enemies and your allies is is, that's 716 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,839 Speaker 1: tough when, especially in a situation like this. There were 717 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,840 Speaker 1: other revelations. It turns out that several senior US officials 718 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,320 Speaker 1: believe there was a realistic opportunity to cut a piece 719 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: deal with the Taliban back in two thousand two or 720 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: two thousand three. Again, we're not saying it's definite. We're 721 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: saying that's what they felt was in the cards. Also, 722 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,960 Speaker 1: when this stuff came out, you know who else was surprised? Congress, 723 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: And with Congress it's tough, like how many is it performative? Right? 724 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,960 Speaker 1: I have to be upset at this for my constituents, 725 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,239 Speaker 1: so they know that I was definitely upset at this. Right, 726 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: And there's bipartisan Uh, there's bipartisan anger at this. At 727 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 1: least if we look at Senators Richard Blumenthal and Josh Howley, 728 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: they're both on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and they've 729 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,680 Speaker 1: already called for hearings based on these reports. Even former 730 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: Afghan President Haman cars I gave an interview to the 731 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 1: AP Associated Press UH recently and he said the Afghanistan 732 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: Papers proved the US was at fault for his country's corruption. However, 733 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 1: Craig Whitlock, one of the journalists who brought the story 734 00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: to light from the Post, said the US was at fault, 735 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: but the Afghan government did not prosecute many people for 736 00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:02,120 Speaker 1: corruption or fraud, that's for sure, Jess. And this this 737 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,960 Speaker 1: is where this is where this leaves us. I know 738 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,879 Speaker 1: it's a high level look, but there's so many other 739 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: things to report. Well, there will be new revelations, surely, right, 740 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,720 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of documents here. I'm glad 741 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,320 Speaker 1: you brought that up, because, yeah, as we record today 742 00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,439 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, we said it was an ongoing war 743 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,480 Speaker 1: for them, right. They're still in court fighting for more documents, 744 00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: and they're pressing Cigar to identify everyone they interviewed for 745 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,000 Speaker 1: the Afghanistan Papers, which they haven't yet. Currently, the Trump 746 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: administration is holding direct peace talks with the Taliban. A 747 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: lot of the experts that The Post spoke with said 748 00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,759 Speaker 1: that they believe the only way to end this war 749 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,040 Speaker 1: is to cut a deal that militarily it is impossible 750 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,480 Speaker 1: to entirely defeat the Taliban unless it's something like so 751 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,479 Speaker 1: in the Earth with salt a k A nukes, which 752 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:58,080 Speaker 1: no one wants policy. Yeah, please don't do that. Anyone 753 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: who's listening to has one of those things. Yeah, and 754 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 1: and this has given these out of civilians. Now, yeah, 755 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,160 Speaker 1: costco baby, it's the only thing is you have to 756 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: buy three to get the deal. Don't you remember in 757 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: that whole declaration happened and we all got nukes that 758 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,160 Speaker 1: it was the mutually assured destruction agreement of other have 759 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,840 Speaker 1: a giant psychic squid? Those are coming to have Have 760 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: you heard the news the good news. Yeah, there's this guy. 761 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,840 Speaker 1: He's working on a giant intergalactic squid thing. I don't know. 762 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,440 Speaker 1: I don't know the details. I have no comment. Well 763 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,480 Speaker 1: are you the guy? I know? Look, let's go to 764 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: a different yours. This is another thing about this story 765 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: that is still continuing. And this I don't know, this 766 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: is just my I want to be too conspiratorial. I 767 00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: do want to know. It is a fact. Currently Afghanistan 768 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: still dominates global opium markets. Last year, according to the 769 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 1: UN Office on drugs and crimes, so tighten right, eight 770 00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,560 Speaker 1: two per cent of the world's opium supply was produced 771 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:15,400 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. Some of the biggest problems in the US, 772 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,280 Speaker 1: they're drug related, come from opium. Yeah, they're not growing 773 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,200 Speaker 1: a ton of it here, are they? Like you know, 774 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: the different the different UH pharmaceutical companies that are probably 775 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:34,480 Speaker 1: gonna avoid too many serious consequences of creating the opium crisis. 776 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:39,799 Speaker 1: Nobody's saying conspiracy here, people, We're just we're just going, hey, 777 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,799 Speaker 1: look at this and just say we We talked about 778 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,640 Speaker 1: this in a previous episode. Just how much security was 779 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:51,239 Speaker 1: devoted to what looks like from the reporting and the 780 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,760 Speaker 1: images that were sent back over the course of years 781 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:58,840 Speaker 1: up until very recently, that we are protecting the poppy fields, 782 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,640 Speaker 1: I guess from allowing anyone to use them. Right. Well, 783 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 1: it's also tough because you can see interviews with farmers 784 00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: in the area who say, you know, I'm a subsistence 785 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 1: farmer what like. There there were different plans to uh 786 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: institute new crops for cash, but opium makes the most 787 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,239 Speaker 1: money to sell and the markeup is huge. The worst 788 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:27,239 Speaker 1: part is those farmers are not making what UH you know, 789 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: nobody's going to be buying a mansion doing that. What's 790 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,160 Speaker 1: the same way with cocaine and in Colombia and stuff, right, 791 00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,239 Speaker 1: I mean largely the cartels put the burden of cultivating 792 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 1: it and growing it on these families who look at 793 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,799 Speaker 1: it as you know, some sort of subsistence living. But 794 00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:47,240 Speaker 1: they're not sharing in the profits of the criminal enterprise. Again, 795 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,960 Speaker 1: elephants war and grass. Right, when the elephants make war, 796 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,400 Speaker 1: the grass suffers. It's there's a lot of stuff that 797 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,799 Speaker 1: we missed, and we've got to emphasize, just on the 798 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,160 Speaker 1: ending note, we have to emphasis as the human element, 799 00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,439 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. People who are soldiers are 800 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 1: not bad. People who are civilians in a country that 801 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,440 Speaker 1: is being subjected to a conflict are not bad either. 802 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,400 Speaker 1: This is these are all human beings who are trying 803 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,239 Speaker 1: to survive. And the horrific thing is that a lot 804 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,280 Speaker 1: of decisions upon which lives hinged are made by people 805 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,879 Speaker 1: who will never physically travel to the places where they 806 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 1: see their consequences of their decisions made real. I want 807 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,680 Speaker 1: to add to that, but I don't need to. Yeah, 808 00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,799 Speaker 1: I'm right there with you that that is tremendously frustrating 809 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,000 Speaker 1: and quite heartbreaking actually, and we know that we have 810 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: a lot of survivors of conflicts in our audience today. 811 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: We have many military veterans in our audience today as well, 812 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,120 Speaker 1: and we are fortunate because we have people who have 813 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,440 Speaker 1: a first hand look at what the military we call 814 00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 1: the facts on the ground. So, if you are comfortable, 815 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 1: you are by no means obligated, But if you are 816 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: comfortable sharing your story with us, we would love to 817 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: hear from you. Uh please just let us know if 818 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: it's something you're comfortable sharing on air, or if you 819 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,120 Speaker 1: would just like to give an anonymous account. You can 820 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook. You can find us on Instagram. 821 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:28,880 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter. Were conspiracy stuff on 822 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 1: Twitter and Facebook. We are Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram. 823 00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,400 Speaker 1: We also highly recommend our Facebook community page. Here's where 824 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,759 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. But wait, as Billy Mays just want 825 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: to say, there's more. You can find us on as 826 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 1: individuals on some of those social meds. Yes, I am 827 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:55,279 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, underscore my heart. I think, Yeah, I thought 828 00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,200 Speaker 1: you'd thought you'd torched it. No I was, I was, 829 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,480 Speaker 1: I was throwing people off my scent. I see your 830 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,480 Speaker 1: social scent now back, I'm glad to hear it. I 831 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 1: follow you, and I was worried that I wasn't gonna 832 00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: get the uh the joy of of of experiencing your 833 00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:12,640 Speaker 1: online presence anymore. Well, look at that, I haven't posted 834 00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,280 Speaker 1: anything in two and a half years or so. Away. 835 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,400 Speaker 1: I would say that quality trump's quantity. It does. Indeed, 836 00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,799 Speaker 1: I try to go for that m O on my 837 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,560 Speaker 1: social media account singular where you can find me at 838 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,360 Speaker 1: how now Noel Brown exclusively on Instagram is though like 839 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,720 Speaker 1: I'm sponsored by them or something. I am. I am 840 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,120 Speaker 1: on those uh social media's as well. You can check 841 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:44,240 Speaker 1: me out at Ben Bolan on Instagram uh and Twitter 842 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,840 Speaker 1: at Ben Bowling hs W. But hey, you might be saying, 843 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: I h I hate social media. I find it abhorrent. 844 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,200 Speaker 1: I loathe it and is unclean. But I have a 845 00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,840 Speaker 1: story to tell you. What of what am I to do? Oh? Well, 846 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,279 Speaker 1: I will tell you because there's a number you can call, 847 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,359 Speaker 1: and there's some other stuff. But right before we get 848 00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,359 Speaker 1: to that, I just want to put out here that 849 00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,000 Speaker 1: we are talking about the Washington Post and some amazing 850 00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: reporting that they did. But there is a paywall there, 851 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,799 Speaker 1: so if you want to go to other sources. I 852 00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,239 Speaker 1: just wanted to give people a few places they could 853 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: find reporting on this. UM. There is one that if 854 00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,520 Speaker 1: you just google that you will find from The Atlantic 855 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:27,440 Speaker 1: that has a pretty good write up on it. But 856 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 1: the one, the source that I really appreciated was the 857 00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:35,160 Speaker 1: uh SIG I think it's Siggy online, c i g 858 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,319 Speaker 1: I online, the Center for International Government's Innovation. They have 859 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:46,080 Speaker 1: a really interesting whole series of articles about the Afghanistan Papers. Yeah. Yeah, 860 00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,000 Speaker 1: And I think the Guardian has done some great work too. 861 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,239 Speaker 1: It also like to recommend I don't know if uh 862 00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:58,200 Speaker 1: if people are fans or foes of Reddit, but Reddit 863 00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: has a subreddit called ask Historians, which gives some fantastic 864 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:08,520 Speaker 1: background to some of the deeper dives of Afghan history 865 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,759 Speaker 1: that we didn't get into today. Excellent UM. And and 866 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,400 Speaker 1: it's not to say that you can't access the Afghanistan papers. 867 00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:19,040 Speaker 1: It's called the Afghanistan Papers, a Secret history of the war. 868 00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,480 Speaker 1: You can find it. There's one called at War with 869 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,600 Speaker 1: the Truth UM that's from Craig Woodlock, and you you 870 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,480 Speaker 1: can't find that in access that. I just know that 871 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:30,120 Speaker 1: as you're going through navigating you may hit some walls there. 872 00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,600 Speaker 1: They're just putting that out there. Okay, so let's um, 873 00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,040 Speaker 1: let's jump to the idea that you can call us 874 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,880 Speaker 1: if you wish to. You can call one eight three 875 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:43,360 Speaker 1: three st d W I t K, leave a message, 876 00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,880 Speaker 1: talk to us, just what Ben said earlier. Anything you 877 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,840 Speaker 1: want to tell us that you feel comfortable doing, please 878 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,160 Speaker 1: do uh. And if you don't want to do any 879 00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,560 Speaker 1: of that stuff, you can give us a good old 880 00:57:54,640 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 1: fashioned email. We are conspiracy at ihart radio dot com. 881 00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,200 Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 882 00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:22,040 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts 883 00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 884 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,200 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.