WEBVTT - Listener Mail: Fire of Unknown Origin 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.320 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:11.080 My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.800 Listener Mail. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.200 and today we're bringing you some of the messages that 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:19.720 you've sent us over the past couple of weeks. So, 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.920 Rob would you mind if I kick things off by 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.840 reading a message that we got about our machine Lords 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:34.200 of Barnard sixty eight episodes. Okay, this first message comes 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.760 from Aiden. Aiden writes, Hi, Robert and Joe, I just 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.880 finished listening to your episode about post biological intelligence. Towards 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.159 the end of part two, you raised the question of 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.360 whether such an intelligence would have something like emotions. This 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:50.960 is a great question, and in the recent Vault episodes 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:53.920 on invertebrate emotions you shared some ideas that could help 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:57.240 to answer it. In the Invertebrates episode, you focused on 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:00.520 the ways that an internal emotional state could make manifest 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.600 as measurable behaviors. The example that I remember most clearly 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:08.800 is the one about bees. After receiving a free sugary treat, 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.160 bees will forage with a more optimistic bias, but after 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.200 a simulated attack, they will forage with a more pessimistic bias. 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.440 This change in behavior may be attributable to something like 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.200 an emotion. Those of parenthesis and and adds as a 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.600 pre post biological intelligence. Writing this based on memory, I 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.120 may be missing something from the b example. Feel free 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.880 to add on or correct if you read it on air. Well, 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.600 nothing to add or correct so far, and you're doing good. Uh. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.119 Continuing this got me thinking that maybe the same test 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.600 could be applied to a machine intelligence if we could 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.039 observe it. Maybe a free burst of gamma ray energy 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.360 would cause it to display some optimistic behaviors, while a destructive, 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:54.480 unexpected supernova would cause it to show more pessimistic behaviors, 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:58.080 whatever that might look like. However, such an intelligence would 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.560 probably have some similarity to modern machine learning in the 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.880 sense that it would extrapolate based on past data. Optimism 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.720 or pessimism would probably show up as an overreaction or 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:13.960 under reaction to the stimulus beyond what the cold calculation 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.359 of an algorithm would predict. For example, if the machine 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:20.840 knows that in the past a supernova or other negative 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.760 stimulus has caused a ten percent impact on its systems, 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:29.320 the cold, emotionless calculation of data would would suggest changing 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:32.440 its behavior by ten percent. On the other hand, if 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.920 the machine had some kind of emotional state like pessimism, 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.120 maybe it would change its behavior by fifteen percent. That 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.600 five percent difference could be the way to tease out 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.079 the effect of emotions from the effect of adaptive behavior 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.400 based on past experience. The caveat here is that the 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:53.280 observer would need to know what the emotionless baseline is. 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.480 Maybe this is a study that only an even greater 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:00.400 machine intelligence could carry out on smaller, simpler ones. It 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.200 was fun exploring the connection between these episodes. So thanks 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.000 for another week of great podcasts. Best Aiden. Yeah, this 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.560 is a good point and so yeah. In that Invertebrate 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:13.840 Emotions episode, we talked about the difficulties in separating out 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.520 the different things that we would classify as emotions, Like 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.960 you might be able to regard an emotion like anger 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.880 in one sense, as an internal state that has a 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.799 subjective felt quality to it, like it feels like something 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.240 to be angry, and then on. In another case, you 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:37.040 could say anger is a set of externally observable behaviors 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.360 that you see clustered together. That was you know, they 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.920 represent a certain number of biases and behavior that occur 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.000 at the same time, maybe like uh, a quickness to 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.920 physical aggression or something like that, in other things that 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.880 would correlate with anger uh. And so those are definitely 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.320 separate things. I guess you would have to leave aside 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.280 the question of whether it would feel like something to uh, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.120 to have an emotion shan for a post biological intelligence 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.440 the same way it would feel like something for us. 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.560 That comes back to the question we talked about in 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:10.680 the episode of weather. Post biological intelligences would actually be conscious, 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.400 and one part of having a conscious experience is having 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.800 internal emotional states that feel like something. Yeah. The other 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.280 part would just be like, would they have these sort 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:26.200 of clusters of externally observable behaviors that sort of are 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:33.960 seen together and they represent a certain disposition towards external stimuli? Yeah, yeah, 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.000 this is a yeah, this is a good breakdown. I 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:44.160 I appreciate this. All right, let's hear from another listener. 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.880 This one comes to us from Chris. Chris writes, Hi, Robert, 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.760 Joe and Seth, good day. Your recent two part episode 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.200 on the Machine Lords of Barnard has been a great listen. 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.800 It is difficult to conceptualize how we could get to 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.960 a post biological point uh in the time scale that 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.680 might be involved, but it is a fun thought experiment. 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:07.760 The topic was particularly relevant to a short story by 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.840 Sushin Lieu that I am reading as part of an 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.640 anthology work titled to Hold Up the Sky. I had 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.799 first read The Three Body Problem after hearing you mentioned 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.800 it many times on past episodes. I really enjoyed the 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.760 way his sci fi has written through a completely different 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:27.640 lens that most Western readers are used to. Um or 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:31.120 maybe it's just me, this is great. I did recommend 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.799 The Three Body Problem in a previous summer reading episode 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.039 we did a few years back. I loved that novel. Uh, 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:41.520 but I have not read any of Cician lous Um 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:43.679 short stories, so so yeah, this is this is totally 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.080 fresh to me. Yeah, same here. I I did the 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.240 audio book of the of of that of that first one, 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:51.200 the Three Body Problem, but I haven't read any of 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.760 the subsequent books in that series, or any of his 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.960 shorter works. Well, that is a dark forest that we 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:01.919 should maybe both wander into all uh, they continue. The 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.920 short story I'm referring to is titled Cloud of Poems. 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:08.279 It is a fascinating story involving an advanced race of 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.240 dinosaurs called the Devouring Empire, who have recently joined the 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.560 Greater Galactic Civilization coming to our Solar System, enslaving humans 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.919 and raising them as feedstock on their interstellar ship, and 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:25.600 in a particular human named ye Ye who teaches classical 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.120 Chinese literature to the feed lot humans to make them 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:33.120 more tender. Now this is where the post biological life 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.559 comes in. Another member from the Greater Galactic Society comes 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:38.960 into the Solar System and is only referred to as 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.880 quote a God. There's a lot of backstory, but it 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:44.400 is made clear that this is a being from a 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.760 significantly more advanced race that has been that has transformed 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.080 itself into beings of pure energy with the ability to 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.479 jump from one side of the Milky Way galaxy to 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.839 the other. In this sci fi world, it's explained that 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.440 the level of civilization is based on the number of 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.600 dimensions it can access. The Esteemed God's race can access 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.160 eleven dimensions. That's a lot of dimensions. In the episode, 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.440 you discussed how the motivations of a post biological life 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.280 form might be different from our own and whether they 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.520 would have the same concerns as a living being, etcetera. 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.200 And this story gets at that point, which I think 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:22.400 is relevant. If a race evolved to a point where 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.160 individuals transformed past a stage where a lifespan is no 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.920 longer a concern, I think they would not continue to 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.360 have the same desires and motivations as their pre biological selves. 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.560 In this story, the Esteemed God, who is an intergalactic 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.480 art collector and researcher, is challenged by the human you 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.960 you to become a better poet than the classical Chinese 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:46.440 master uh liebe. The human point is that even with 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.960 all the technology that the Esteemed God possesses, it cannot 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.760 replicate the poetry of a human because it does not 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:57.080 possess the ability to understand the human spiritual realm. Since 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.360 this God is still an individual, albeit being a pure energy, 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.200 he takes the challenge, transforming himself into a human and 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:07.720 attempting to surpass the poetry. Long story short, He fails. 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.480 Then instead decides to build a quantum computer to write 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.720 and record every possible poem using the Chinese alphabet and 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.000 save them each on an atomic level storage device where 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:19.720 each poem is stored on a single atom. It's then 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.320 discussed that it will take ten to the hundred and 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:27.080 seventy second power number of atoms to store every possible combination, 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.640 and that unfortunately there are only ten to the eightieth 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.720 power of atoms in the entire universe. I don't know 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:35.680 how to check these numbers, so I am unsure if 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:38.720 they actually match up to reality. Uh maybe Seth can 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:41.440 help me out on that. Let's let's hear it. Let's 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.840 Seth quickly in real time chime in and uh in 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.840 fact check those numbers for us. He's got to go 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.280 count him. Okay, he's gonna count. You'll come back um 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.440 in ten to the hundred and seventy second power minutes. 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.040 Uh So, anyway, the Esteemed God then decides to start 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.559 building the quantum computer, and to do so, he will 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.960 need to deconstruct the entire Solar System, humans and the 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.960 Devouring Empire to their constituent atoms a mere ten to 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.920 the fifty seven power to do so, and has no 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.560 had has no qualms with the destruction to achieve those ends. 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.680 This was an entirely too long email, but I did 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:24.960 do my best to summarize an astounding work by Sushin Lou. 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.199 You should really just just read it. But to but 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.240 suffice to say, I think a post biological race that 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.880 is descended from previously living beings would be extremely dangerous, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.839 especially if they have the power available to them, like 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.360 the esteemed god of our story, willing to destroy entire 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.160 races and solar systems with no second thought to achieve 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.520 a goal. Again, great episode. Thanks for all you do 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:51.000 bringing us listeners, great content. Best Chris. Oh thanks Chris. 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.000 This sounds like a like a great read. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.600 I um, I love the ideas explored in this. Uh 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.080 you know the this This is definitely an ideas author 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.880 that toys with wonderful sci fi concepts. I mean, based 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.240 on the one novel I've read. Um, that's kind of 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:11.719 how it rolls out. So there's a lot of individuals 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:17.640 discussing very at times high minded science scientific topics, but 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.600 with some other fun stuff thrown in as well, like 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:25.440 real world, um, political concerns, Chinese mythology, etcetera. Yeah, totally, 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.560 And I will say I don't want to spoil anything, 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.200 but the book also has a really great, a really 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:35.120 great science fiction weapon in it that's extremely counterintuitive that 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.240 comes in towards the end. I won't say any more 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.200 than that it's it's it's not a piece of wood 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:45.559 with a nail in it though. But yeah, I really 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:50.120 like this idea of a a super intelligent post biological 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.679 being being challenged to try to write poetry that transcends 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.959 the great poets of Earth, like the example in the 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.320 story would be would be lead by I think a 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.280 lot of Western readers probably know his name spelled more 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.160 like a Leapo or lee Bow, often like l I 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.640 p O or l I b O, but like a 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.520 Tang Tang dynasty era poet who's just a wonderful poet. 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.320 And so it raises the question of like, well, you know, 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.720 if this, if this being is so so intellectually past 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:22.000 human beings, why would it be that it couldn't write 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.520 poetry better than you know, the than the poetry produced 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.360 by the best of this you know, biologically confined uh 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.160 species on the planet Earth. Well, I think there actually 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.000 maybe is something plausible to that, because you know, almost 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.640 all great art is about like suffering in some way. Uh. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:41.080 And so if you were to take a being that 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.120 is is just like so powerful it essentially has no 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.680 real wants or physical limitations, you can imagine how a 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.960 being like that could have real trouble creating compelling narratives 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.440 community that that would like, uh, speak emotionally to the 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:59.120 experience of beings who are limited like humans are. Yeah, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.240 so then it has to take human form and try 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.000 and create human art. It has to be the word 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:06.920 made flesh, right, it has to come down and become 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.439 one of us. Yeah, exactly how else can it possibly 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.760 understand it? So? Yeah, definitely, Yeah, thank you for the recommendation, Chris. 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.960 I will have to look that that story up all right. Well, well, Carney, 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.600 our mail bot has even more machine and AI and 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:29.600 robotic based listener mail for us here today. Yes, this 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.440 next message is a response to part one of our 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:38.240 episode about punishing machines. This comes from Karen. Karen says, 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.640 love the show. I'm just going to jump into this. 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.720 I think that if we judge a robot able to 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:47.360 commit a crime, the robot is also implicitly able to 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.400 have a crime committed against it. But if a human 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.320 or another robot victimizes a robot, what would the consequences be. 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.160 Let's say that I commit a crime against a robot. 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:00.840 I take the Amazon Virtual Assistant Alex and throw the 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.640 device on the floor, constituting an assault on Alexa. What 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.400 happens next? What is justice to her? Is it based 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:13.240 on the robots programmed values, likes, dislikes, or goals? If so, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.880 then Alexa's greatest value is supporting Amazon, and her goal 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.800 is to sell Amazon products. What do you do with that? 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.480 Another silly example, Think of the security robot who drove 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.640 into a pond. I like that, you say, who by 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.520 the way, I think of the security robot who drove 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:33.320 into a pond and drowned itself in people saw that happen. 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.240 Would people who witnessed a robot getting damaged without stopping 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.200 it be guilty of some sort of neglect if they were, 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.160 what would make it right to the robot? If you 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.200 made it this far, thanks for reading, and what do 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.920 you think? Well, Karen, we actually do talk about this 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.920 a little bit in part two of that series, but 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.160 I've been thinking about it more since we recorded that 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.120 part two, and I think this raises some really good questions. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.120 So a few distinctions on my thoughts about whether robots 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.400 could be the victim of a crime. I would say, 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.800 at the surface level, this depends, at least in my opinion, 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.840 on whether the robot is conscious or not. And I 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.760 think the standard assumption today is that machines like the 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:18.320 Amazon Alexa, even complex machines, they're not conscious. But in 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.040 the future it might be hard to say. And this 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.520 gets back, of course to the hard problem of consciousness, 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.520 which we talked about in the Machine Lords of Barnard 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:29.560 sixty eight episodes. Uh, if we don't know what consciousness 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.480 is and why it arises in the first place, even 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.440 in biological brains like ours, it's gonna be hard to 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.280 judge whether a non biological machine could ever be conscious 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.960 or not. So this is just a big open question. 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:43.920 To me. I don't really come down on one side 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.160 or the other. But with that huge caveat, I would 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.880 say that I think if robots are ever able to 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.920 be conscious, if for whatever reason we decide yes they 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.080 are having an inner experience like we are, then I 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:59.000 think the obvious implication would be that they have the 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.880 right to be protect it against harm just like anybody else, 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.080 but for an Alexa or whatever. Since I don't think 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.760 anybody really has suspicions that Alexa is conscious or that 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.160 Alexa has any kind of internal experience, I think harm 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.040 done against an Alexa would really just be a property 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.160 crime against its owner, like if you were to damage 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:22.000 somebody's wheelbarrow or something. But then there's another big complication 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.600 that I'll throw in that that your email really made 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:29.840 me think about, which is the possible brutalizing effect on 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:35.920 society and on onlookers of tolerating crime against robots that 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.800 appear to be conscious even though they're not. This is 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:42.160 something that I'd take kind of seriously. So I'm imagining 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:44.040 a scenario like this, see if this makes any sense 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.600 to rob Like, so we imagine most people are still 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.800 decided that, yeah, there's nothing that it's like to be 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.040 a robot. Robots can't actually suffer, so they don't have 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.560 like inherent rights that we need to protect because there's 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:58.320 nothing that it's like to be them that they just 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.040 don't care. But if you were to make a robot 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:06.640 that convincingly acted out suffering when it was harmed, and 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:10.600 then you just had lots of robots like this constantly 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.600 like being harmed in public views, Like a humanoid looking 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.880 robot that could just like sit there while somebody beat 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.040 it with a stick and it would scream in pain. 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:24.600 Something does seem like very wrong about that that just 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.320 being stimuli that we are constantly exposed to and doing 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.960 nothing about. You know, it almost seems like that that 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.640 would have a kind of horrible numbing effect on onlookers, 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.760 that would desensitize them to the real suffering of human 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:44.520 beings and of animals. Yeah, I guess. On a related note, 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.520 I know in my household with a with a with 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:52.640 a child, we we have stressed at times that you know, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:56.360 even though you know Alexa or Amazon or Google or 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.760 whatever you're talking to, uh, you know, even though it's 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.960 not a real person, and we're very clear about that. Um, 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.560 you know, you you shouldn't talk mean mean to it. 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.359 You know, you should you should be nice when you 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:12.320 address the robot. You shouldn't be you know, unnecessarily uh, 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:17.959 you know, angry or or you know, or anything like that. Uh. Likewise, 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.639 we've we've had this discussion when when one is playing 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:25.800 against an AI in a game, particularly you know, certainly 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.200 if it's like an enemy AI, but but more specifically, 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.000 you know, if it's something like an online Settlers of 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:35.560 Catan situation where it's like a fake human player, Like, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.240 you're not allowed to just say mean things to the 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.560 non human in the in the chat box because that 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.600 it just sets a weird precedent, you know, right, it's 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.840 and it's not because it would hurt the AI. It's 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.840 because it's like it trains you to behave that way, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.680 and eventually you may end up behaving that way towards 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.359 somebody who could actually be harmed by it. Yeah, so anyway, 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.520 I mean, of course, it's it's in a whole additional 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.800 area of like, how do we treat how do we 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:10.200 treat you know, virtual entities in simulated environments and in games. Yeah, well, 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.160 I guess this starts to sort of bleed over into 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.760 the bigger, big controversial question of like whether you know, 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.760 whether video games that have violence in them train people 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.679 to commit violence in the real world. And I'm certainly 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.600 not taking a position on that. I I don't have 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.040 a strong opinion one way or another about that. Maybe 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.240 we could look at the research more on that in 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.080 the future. But um, but I mean I would say 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.320 that there there's something like if something is happening in 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.760 physical space and you're seeing people actually like use physical 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.760 violence against a robot or be uh, you know, performatively 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.679 verbally abusive to a robot, even in in real physical space, 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:50.320 and nothing is is just being tolerated. Something about that, 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.840 at least intuitively to me, would have would seem to 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.840 have a kind of deadening and and very detrimental effect 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.080 on on the culture. Right, But then again, we have 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.360 to be open to the idea that there could conceivably 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:07.680 be situations in which the robot's presence is intolerable. Maybe 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.880 it's not the robot's fault, but um, like say, there's 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:13.679 some sort of a I mean you to go back 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.720 to the cigarette robot example from that the first episode. 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.320 If if the cigarette bot can roll into your house uninvited, 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:22.720 I mean, I I think you should be able to, 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.800 um to kick it out of your house, right right? 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.119 Sure you know we were not going to stand for 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.679 the tyranny of cigarette bot. Yeah. Maybe so that's the 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:33.879 other side of it. Maybe maybe we should. Maybe there 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.240 are cases where it's actually good to to appear to 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.280 violate the rights of a robot if that robot represents 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.719 something really evil and bad that you want to like 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:47.120 demonstrate your disapproval against. I guess that that actually did 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.160 come up in the paper. They were talking about arguments 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.919 that like part of what juries sometimes want to do 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:58.280 is just like symbolically demonstrate moral approprium. Yeah, here's an idea. 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.000 What if you could build up moral willpower by having 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.800 a robot devil that actually sits on your shoulder and 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.239 is constantly trying to tempt you to do evil, and 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:11.040 so you like just practice ignoring it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:16.119 I guess so I could see that working. I'm not 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.000 sure if I could. I mean, I can see people 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:26.920 doing it. I don't know if it would work, uh 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.520 at anyway, Well, we'll let those the listeners decide on that. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:31.640 Here's another bit of listener mail for UCE. This comes 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.080 to us from Jim and New Jersey, Robert and Joe. 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.400 I would like to update the trolley car problem slightly. 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.440 For autonomous vehicles, it's not a choice of whether the 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.000 car strikes the elderly couple or the mother pushing the 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.240 baby stroller, inflicting the least possible harm. It's whether the 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.440 car chooses to crash into a wall or tree seriously 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.840 injuring or killing the passengers, or to strike pedestrians injuring 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.919 or killing them while leaving the passengers mostly unscathed. But 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.639 let's make it a bit more interesting. UM in the 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:04.360 gym includes a few um caveats here. First of all, 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.840 it's a choice between one passenger and a group of pedestrians, 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.679 or it's a choice between a group in the vehicle 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.879 and one pedestrian, or it's a choice between an equal 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.399 number of people in the vehicle and an equal number 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:21.120 of pedestrians. Does the car's decision favor passenger safety as 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.879 the car moves from basic utility vehicles into more expensive 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.159 luxury models. I don't know what these answers are or 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.680 should be. There are no easy answers, Jim. I think 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.119 this raises a great point, Jim, and we actually, I 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:36.479 think we this is probably the response that came in 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:38.880 after part one published, but before part two, So we 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:40.800 sort of address some of this in part two. But 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:44.359 this raises a bunch of other permutations that we didn't 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.600 get into. UH. And and one thing that these variations 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:50.680 really highlight for me is um a problem that we 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:52.840 also did not really get into in the episode, which 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:56.920 is UH, making life or death decisions when the probabilities 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.879 of the outcomes that you're trying to choose between our 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.719 very uncertain. So we were talking about how an autonomous 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.399 vehicle in reality is going to have to make like 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.960 trolley car type decisions all the time. But actually, what 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:11.800 it's gonna have to do is make like a trolley 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.159 problem decision where it's not one track with one person 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.320 versus another track with multiple people. It's going to be 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:23.520 lots of abstract branches of probabilities, like you you have 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:27.000 an x percent probability that someone will be injured or 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.439 harmed on this track versus that track, And a lot 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:33.280 of times those probabilities, even that the machine judges with 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:35.480 the best of information available to it, are just going 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.240 to be wrong. So it's not just that the decision 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.320 will have to be made, but the decision will have 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.800 to be made necessarily on incomplete information that could be 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:48.000 could be very misguided. Just one example, like if an 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:51.080