1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. On Monday, April eighth, 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: the Biden deministration released details of their new student loan 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: debt forgiveness plan for nearly thirty million borrowers. The proposal 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: still needs to be finalized and will almost certainly be 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: challenged in court. However, Biden administration officials have said they 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: could begin handing out some of the debt relief, including 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: canceling up to twenty thousand dollars in interest, as soon 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: as this fall. The plan would reduce payments for twenty 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: five million borrowers and erase all debt for more than 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 1: four million Americans. About forty three million people are carrying 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: one trillion, seven hundred billion dollars in student debt, joining 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: me to discuss the proposed new student loan debt forgiveness plan. 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: I am really pleased to welcome my guest, Adam Kissel. 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: He is a visiting fellow in the Hair Foundation Center 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: for Education Policy, and he previously served as Deputy Assistant 16 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: Secretary for Higher Education Programs at the US Department of Education. Adam, welcome, 17 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me on New World. 18 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here. 19 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so on Monday, April eight, Biden unveiled this 20 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: new student loan that forgiveness plan that would help about 21 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: thirty million borrowers or rayed some or all of their loans. 22 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: What would the plan actually look like. 23 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: We haven't seen the details yet, but we do have 24 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: some bullet points and we've seen some documents out of 25 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: what's called negotiated rulemaking, which would have a number of 26 00:01:53,640 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: different features to it. One is that if you're is 27 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: higher after a couple of years than the amount that 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: you originally took out, you're considered to have a kind 29 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: of hardship that the Secretary can use to waive your 30 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 2: debt interest up to twenty thousand dollars. So for people 31 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: who have had debt over the course of many years, 32 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: their interest payments and principle might be much higher than 33 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: their original debt. And that could be because they've been 34 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: in deferment and they've paid the minimum amount and it's 35 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 2: unclear whether they really have a hardship or not because 36 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 2: they've just been on an income contingent repayment plan. But 37 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter to the Biden administration. They want to 38 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: cut as much debt as they possibly can, and that's 39 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: why up to twenty thousand in interest for that category 40 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: of borrowers would simply be wiped off of their debt 41 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 2: and of course transferred to one hundred million taxpayers who 42 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: will be holding the bag for that. There are some 43 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: other bullet points released by the administration that would be 44 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: targeted at borrowers and other categories. So, for instance, if 45 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: your debt has been in repayment for twenty or twenty 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: five years or more, then your debt might just simply 47 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: be canceled. And again, cancel doesn't mean that it goes away. 48 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: It becomes money that somebody else is going to have 49 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: to pay. And then there's a third category that will 50 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: also have many people in it, which is an accountability measure, 51 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: which is that if you look at the debt a 52 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: few years out after someone graduates and their income a 53 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 2: few years out, you can calculate a debt to income ratio, 54 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: and if that ratio is bad, and doing that program 55 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: by program, college by college, if that ratio is bad, 56 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: then you're perceived to have a low financial value degree. 57 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: And if you're in a low financial value degree program, 58 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: then you might have your debt canceled as well. So 59 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: there are some smaller categories, but those I think are 60 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: the three biggest. And then there's a catch all, which 61 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: is that if the Secretary decides that you have a 62 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 2: hardship for any reason, the Secretary could cancel all of 63 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: your debt. And one of the ideas that the Secretary 64 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: has proposed is that if you haven't been paying your 65 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: student loans for a certain number of months, I guess 66 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: you must have a hardship. So just imagine how that 67 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: loophole will be abused. Those are the biggest parts. 68 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: How does this differ from the first Biden debt free 69 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: giveness plan back in twenty twenty two. 70 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: The earlier plan relied on the Heroes Act, which was 71 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: meant especially for actual American heroes, people who say we're 72 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: serving in a foreign country for some reason, perhaps because 73 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: of a natural disaster, but because perhaps they've been in 74 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: a war or conflict, that they haven't been able to 75 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: pay their student loans on time, And that very specific 76 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: exception was part of the original law. At a later point, 77 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: the Heroes Act was amended so that anyone affected by 78 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: a major disaster who specifically had a problem paying off 79 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: their debt because of the disaster could have a certain 80 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: amount of debt cancelation. But what the Secretary of Education 81 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: did is decided that the entire United States was a 82 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 2: disaster area because of the COVID nineteen response. Therefore, every 83 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: barrower in the world will separate the United States from 84 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: their Every barwer had some impact from the COVID nineteen response, 85 00:05:54,520 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 2: and therefore they had by definition a hardship related to 86 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: the disaster, and therefore they were getting ten or twenty 87 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: thousand dollars cut off of their debt. That was a 88 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: very specific misuse of a law. The current scheme doesn't 89 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 2: use the Heroes Act at all, and we can talk 90 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: about that. 91 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court said that Biden clearly had exceeded his 92 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: authority as defined by Congress in the Heroes Act. So, 93 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: as I gather, apparently Biden's lawyers then went out read 94 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court decision very carefully and tried to figure 95 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: out a new loophole that they could get all this 96 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: money through. Now you called the last plan under the 97 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: Heroes Act quote, a new socialism of higher education. Pay 98 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: only what you can, the minimum ount vanishes towards zero, 99 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: and the taxpayer will cover the rest. Do you really 100 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: see this as that radical break from any kind of 101 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: merit based system I do. 102 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: And the lawsuit from seven states against this latest plan 103 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: helps us see why that's the case. So a student 104 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: loan program is meant to be about helping people go 105 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: to college. You take out a loan, and you're responsible 106 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: and you pay it back. And the current system says 107 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: that for about every ten thousand dollars of student debt, 108 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: the government was making money back. People were encouraged to 109 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: be responsible enough and they would pay back about ten thousand, 110 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: five hundred dollars for every ten thousand dollars of debt. 111 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: The new scheme does socialize higher education because we're all 112 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: going to be paying because for every ten thousand dollars 113 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: of debt, there's about only seven thousand dollars that is 114 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: expected to come back to the public treasury. So the 115 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: loan program has been transmogrified into a grant program. And 116 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: when you're talking about a transfer of money from one 117 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: set of Americans to another, you've really taken a turn 118 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: towards socialism. And this idea of free college is what 119 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: the Biden administration is all about these days. 120 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: What is the new loophole? How have they decided that 121 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: even though the court has said no, you can't do it. 122 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: They figured out a way you can do it. 123 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: Well, they still can't do it, So they're not going 124 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: to win in court, as my prediction. But the Heroes 125 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: Act was a very specific part of the law. That 126 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: was the authority that the Education Department was using as 127 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:34,119 Speaker 2: its justification for the debt cancelation. But the new authority 128 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: that they're using is not out of the Heroes Act. 129 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: It's out of the Secretary's overall waiver authority to waive 130 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: the rules when someone is a distressed borrower. And that 131 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: idea is what the Education Department is using as a 132 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:56,199 Speaker 2: wedge to declare all kinds of borrowers as distressed borrowers. 133 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: It did that for what's called the Say Plan, which 134 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: is for alumni who are on an income based repayment plan, 135 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: which we haven't talked about yet, and it's doing it 136 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: prospectively for this so called Plan B. But to me, 137 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: it's planed C because of the Safe Plan option to 138 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: find twenty five million more people and say that they 139 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 2: are distressed borrowers and deserve a secretarial waiver of paying 140 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: their student loans. 141 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: What is the theory of a distressed borrower? I mean 142 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: a person who's just made a series of bad decisions, 143 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: or a person who went into a low income job 144 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: or what. 145 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: So the traditional idea of a distressed borrower is common sense. 146 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 2: It's someone, say, who has declared bankruptcy or has extreme 147 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: financial trouble in their life where they actually can't pay 148 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: off their debts. It's not someone whose debt just happens 149 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 2: to be higher than the amount that they took out, 150 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: or who still has debt twenty or twenty five years later. 151 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 2: So even in the Save Plan, the idea was that 152 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 2: if you would benefit from paying a lower amount, then 153 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 2: you must be a distressed borrower. So the term itself 154 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: has been stretched beyond any reasonable recognition. So when a 155 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: court looks at it, the court will say that's arbitrary 156 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: and capricious that you can't say a distressed borrower is 157 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 2: someone who's not distressed but will benefit from the new 158 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: terms of the agreement. 159 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: They now have a number of steps they've got to 160 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: take to actually try to implement it. On the bureaucratic side, 161 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: what are the steps that the Department of Education has 162 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: to do in order to try to actually get the 163 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: money to people. 164 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: Well, under the Heroes Plan, The main reason that the 165 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: department lost was it was so lawless. It just declared 166 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 2: what it was going to do. There is no process 167 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: that included notice and comment of the public, which is 168 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: normally required when the government is going to do something 169 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: different from a regulatory point of view, and the major 170 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: questions doctrine came in. So when there was something that 171 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: was of huge political and economic significance, Congress had to 172 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: authorize it, and Congress didn't authorize it. That's what we're 173 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: going to see again. Congress has not authorized twenty five 174 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: million people to get half a trillion or a trillion 175 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: dollars of student debt, forgiven. But what the department is 176 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: trying to do is trying to at least get notice 177 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: and comment from the public. So they've gone through what's 178 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: called negotiated rule making, which is a special kind of 179 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: rulemaking that is almost unique to the Education Department, where 180 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: they go through a number of meetings with representatives of 181 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 2: different groups such as borrowers, such as national organizations that 182 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: work on student debt issues, and they get representatives of 183 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 2: all of those constituency groups in a room and they 184 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 2: try to come to consensus about a new regulation that 185 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 2: would address an issue, so they brought a bunch of 186 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: those people into a room. Of course, they had nobody 187 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: from our side of the aisle who would think that 188 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: student LAN cancelation is bad. From the beginning, they left 189 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 2: us out, but they negotiated. They negotiated, and they still 190 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: couldn't come to consensus. So what happens when the Department 191 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: can't come to consensus with these representatives of the public 192 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: is they are completely free to write up their own 193 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: regulation the way they want. So that's what's going to happen. 194 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: They've been writing up their own regulation the way they want. 195 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: They announced, especially through the President on Monday, they're going 196 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 2: to do this, this, and this, and we have to 197 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 2: wait to see what the exact text of the regulations are. 198 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: Then the public has a chance to comment, hopefully sixty 199 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: or ninety days, since there's so much going on, but 200 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: the Department could say thirty days. And if the Department 201 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: says thirty days, that will probably become part of the 202 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: lawsuit because it's not enough time to read all of 203 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: these pages of regulations. But at that point they'll have 204 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: their comments. They have to produce a final regulation which 205 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: shows that they've addressed all of the public's comments and 206 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: show why they did or didn't do what the commenters wanted. 207 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 2: And if they do that badly, that would be another 208 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 2: basis for a lawsuit because they're being arbitrary and capricious 209 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 2: and not actually responding to the comments. But once they 210 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: get through all of that, and it could be one 211 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 2: hundred thousand comments, so it could take them months, or 212 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 2: it could be a small number of comments. But once 213 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 2: they do that, it becomes final and then it will 214 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: be subject to litigation, likely maybe by eighteen or twenty 215 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: more states, and so likely it will then be put 216 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: on hold while judges look at the details. 217 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: So is the current multi state lawsuit about the first 218 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: round of Biden give a ways or is it about 219 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: this new one. 220 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: What I called the plan b in between, So in 221 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: between the first round and this current round, there was 222 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: a different round that was a revision of a particular 223 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: income based or repayment program that has the acronym repaye 224 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: the repay program. They changed its name to the Save program, 225 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: and they did that with only thirty days notice in comment. 226 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: So it was arbitrary and capricious and listened to what 227 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: they did. The original plan said that one hundred and 228 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: fifty percent of the poverty line of your income would 229 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: be exempt from this income based calculation. The new rule 230 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: was two hundred and twenty five percent of the poverty 231 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: line would be exempt. In addition, additional categories of your 232 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: income were a So once they've done that, the next 233 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: question is how much of your disposable income do you 234 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: have to pay? And the rule went from ten percent 235 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: to five percent. And then the next question is how 236 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: many months in a row do you have to pay 237 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: before the rest of your debt is simply canceled. It 238 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: used to be twenty years and it was changed to 239 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: ten years. So you're basically getting about eighty five percent 240 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: off compared to the old plant. So eighteen states are 241 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: now saying that's bad for a bunch of reasons, and 242 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 2: that's what they're suing over. 243 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: Is it very common to have this many states come 244 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: together and follow lawsuit against the president? 245 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: It seems unprecedented to me. Eighteen states in two different lawsuits. 246 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: You may know from your experience something different, but that 247 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: sounds like about the highest number of states that have 248 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: gotten together on anything in quite a while. 249 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: And the other part of that is, as you pointed earlier, 250 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: it's not like they're wiping the debt out, they're transferring it. Correct, 251 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: so it's actually going to end up being part of 252 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: the national deficit. Well, all of us are going to 253 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: pay interest on it. The study you know at Wharton 254 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: that they came out and said plan would cost somewhere 255 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: between five hundred and nineteen billion over ten years and 256 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: could rise to over a trillion. So, I mean Biden 257 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: is massively increasing the national debt across the board. And 258 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: this is just one more example of borrowing from our 259 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: children and grandchildren. 260 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, if you think about it, every trillion dollars is 261 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: what three thousand dollars per American citizen, So this is 262 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 2: not just a question of dispersed costs and concentrated benefits. 263 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: Even the dispersed costs come out to say three thousand 264 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: dollars per person. So this is real money for every person, 265 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: every taxpayer. And when only twenty five million to thirty 266 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: million people are getting some cancelation and at least seventy 267 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: million are going to have to pay for it plus 268 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: of their kids and grandkids, the voter calculation doesn't come 269 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: out as nicely as maybe the Biden administration thinks. So 270 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: if they're thinking they're going to get a bunch of 271 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: votes out of this. They have to remember there's tens 272 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: of millions of people who are upset with us. 273 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: First of all. Of course, when I went to school, 274 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: I borrowed money and it took me probably fifteen years 275 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: to pay it off. Close to had a similar experience. 276 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: So I understand the notion of some level of personal responsibility. 277 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: But isn't it true also that the way Biden is 278 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: proposing it, there's no income limitation. So you can be 279 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: a Harvard educated lawyer making a couple million dollars a 280 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: year and you're suddenly going to have your loan paid 281 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: off by the Treasury, by the taxpayer. And effect so 282 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: some poor person out here working as a plumber or 283 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: working at Wendy's is now going to have a burden 284 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: because the four hundred thousand dollars a year of Harvard 285 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: lawyer is being helped out Joe Biden and by entire 286 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: Biden team. 287 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: That's completely right. That's why my colleagues and I at 288 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:13,239 Speaker 2: the Heritage Foundation called this a regressive scheme. And it's 289 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 2: true that on the pay for side that a lot 290 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 2: of the people who are paying taxes are paying more 291 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: if they earn more. Nevertheless, it's true that lots and 292 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: lots of say, plumbers and folks who didn't go to college, 293 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: and people who chose to go into the military instead 294 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: of having college debt, and people who are responsible and 295 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: paid off their college debt. These categories and more are 296 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: paying for, as you suggested, potentially the four hundred thousand 297 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 2: dollars a year Harvard Law School graduate at a white 298 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 2: shoe firm simply because they are pretended to have financial 299 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 2: hardship by the Education Department and would qualify for one 300 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: of these waivers. 301 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: You also have a situation where Biden, I think pretty 302 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: desperate to get money to them before the election is 303 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: basically just a classic old time vote buying gimmick. And 304 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: your judgment, can they get through all the court challenges 305 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: enough to actually get money to voters before the. 306 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: Election, I think there's very little chance that they will. 307 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: They could get through the injunction phase fairly quickly if 308 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 2: the Supreme Court is willing to look at the case 309 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 2: before November. So as you know, what will happen when 310 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: there's a lawsuit is there'll be a request to put 311 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: the new regulations on hold, and then you have to 312 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 2: do a balance of harms and decide as well on 313 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 2: the merits as quickly as you can figure them out. 314 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: What would happen if we hold the regulation right now 315 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: and don't forgive any debt? And I think the answer 316 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 2: would be if people have to pay on their student 317 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: loans a few extra months, that harm is pretty low 318 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: compared to simply giving away half a trillion dollars. So 319 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: I think there's a good chance that an injunction would 320 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: find the balance of harms on the side of the 321 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 2: eighteen states. Supposing all eighteen of them sue again, it 322 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: would be hard to get through all those levels of court, 323 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: starting with the federal district court and appellate court and 324 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 2: then the Supreme Court. Certainly not the whole case by November, 325 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: but at least the injunction request. Now does that matter 326 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: for the Biden administration because they can still say all 327 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: of these red states have stopped you, you twenty five 328 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: million people from getting the relief you deserve. Now they 329 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 2: don't deserve it, but that'll be the rhetoric of it. 330 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: So simply having the lawsuit exists gives them a talking 331 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 2: point can say, trying to help you and the other 332 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,479 Speaker 2: side is trying to hurt you. 333 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: But as your point out a while ago, if you 334 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: are not one of the people who was in the 335 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: sort of Biden purchase plan, you may well resent the 336 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: whole model. There may be more Americans. In fact, I 337 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: think the only poll I've seen showed many more people 338 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: opposed than favored it, and they've sort of figured out 339 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: it's really a bad deal. 340 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: It is a bad deal, And that's why I've said 341 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: that the voting calculation by the Biden administration may really 342 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: backfire because it's so expensive, everyone sees how unjust it is. 343 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: And besides the fact that it's unlawful, could have a 344 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: lot of implication for people voting against the Biden administration 345 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: getting another bite at the apple because they see this 346 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 2: coming time after time, all of this lawlessness agency by agency, 347 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: and it could well be a factor for people's decision 348 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: about whether to come out to vote and then how 349 00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: to vote. 350 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: At the same time, it seems to me you've got 351 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: an overlay here. Harvard has I think close to fifty 352 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: billion dollars in their endowment, and they charge very high tuition, 353 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 1: So you have to wonder, why is the average tax 354 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: player now going to ship money to Harvard. You would 355 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: think that people who were concerned about the poor would 356 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: have had the opposite model. How do you get money 357 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: from Harvard and send it to the poor instead? The 358 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: Biden model is how do we raise taxes on the 359 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: poor in order to ship it to Harvard. Don't that 360 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: strike you as like totally backwards? It's pretty awful. So 361 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: elite rich universities like Harvard get I don't know, billions 362 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 1: and billions of dollars a year in federal funding and 363 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: subsidy for research as well as tuition, and they do 364 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: not need the tuition dollars at all, but they get 365 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 1: it anyway. So what I believe that states as well 366 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: as the federal government should do is cut off those 367 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: subsidies that are not needed by rich universities. Taxing the 368 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: endowment is socialism. That's wealth confiscation. But you can tax 369 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: endowment income, and you can tax the non educational part 370 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: of a university's income. Right, So universities have meal plans, 371 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: they have housing plans, they get lots of money out 372 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: of their medical work that they do through their hospitals. 373 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 2: All of that should be taxed. And as much as 374 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: I don't like taxation in general, I still think that 375 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: the tax code should be fair across different kinds of organizations, 376 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: and rich elite colleges like Harvard have been abusing that 377 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 2: nonprofit exemption, but they really ought to be paying I 378 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: don't want to say their fair share, but they ought 379 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 2: to be paying what other organizations pay. 380 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: When I look around and I realize, you've got people 381 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: at places like Harvard or Yale or Princeton who are 382 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: genuine socialists. So they're sitting there happy, they had really 383 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: good jobs and getting paid a lot of money, and 384 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: their model is for everybody else in the country to 385 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: subsidize them. Now, I mean, it's a nice gimmick if 386 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: you can get it, but it strikes me it's so 387 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: profoundly intellectually and morally wrong that it's kind of amazing 388 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: that it hasn't been more aggressively taken on up to now. 389 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 2: You know, a few generations ago, we culturally put higher 390 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: education on a pedestal. Those were the really smart people 391 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 2: who were discovering things teaching the next generation, and we 392 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 2: gave them a lot of deference and academic freedom, and 393 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: for the most part, they deserved it. But what's happened today, 394 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: especially since October seventh and the disastrous response to what 395 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: happened in Israel. We see legislators and regulators and the 396 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: general public saying that pedestal just really isn't deserved anymore. 397 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 2: There needs to be some accountability. If faculty members are 398 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: going to be socialists and activists instead of scholars, maybe 399 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 2: it's time for there to be some accountability from the public. 400 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 2: If they want to interfere with our democracy using that term, 401 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: if they want to get involved in the democracy and 402 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 2: be activists, well maybe the rest of us, the democracy 403 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 2: will start knocking on the gates saying, you're responsible to 404 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 2: us for all these subsidies. We have something to say 405 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: about what you're doing. If they went back to pure 406 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,239 Speaker 2: academia and stop trying to change society and socialize it, 407 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: maybe they wouldn't be seeing all of these outsiders coming 408 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 2: in and saying we don't trust you anymore. 409 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: We did a podcast recently with Open the Books, which 410 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: is a very very interesting organization that files Freedom of 411 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: Information Act all over the place, actually as a website 412 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: that lists all of these different places, and most of 413 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: our podcast on the University of Virginia. Well, when you 414 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: begin to look at the salaries the administrators are being paid. 415 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: I think Stanford now has more administrators than there are students, 416 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: not just teachers, and were just pure administrators who have 417 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: nothing to do with the classroom. And all of this 418 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: gets wrapped up in both what they charge the student, 419 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: which Joe Biden is trying to pay off on behalf 420 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,959 Speaker 1: of the students, and they get it from the government 421 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: and a whole range of grants. And so we're all 422 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: told that we have some moral obligation to subsidize people 423 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: who dislike America, despise free enterprise, I have contempt for 424 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: our culture. What would like us to pay them on 425 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: subsidize them. It's quite extraordinary what they pulled off. 426 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: The main reason that places like Stanford or University of Virginia, 427 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: or really almost every college in America can dramatically expand 428 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: its administration and have such a large administrative bloat is 429 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: that tuition dollars pay for it. Research overhead dollars pay 430 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: for it too at a place like Stanford, but that 431 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: money is not going into the classroom. That extra tuition 432 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: dollar is going to some assistant dean of DEI of diversity, 433 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: equity and inclusion to make trouble for the faculty and 434 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 2: tell them who they can hire and who they can't hire. 435 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: So if we and it's tough love, right, if we 436 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: cut off the subsidies for student loans, then we can 437 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: do something about the administrative bloat that Americans are paying for. 438 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: And I think in that sense, when went in exactly 439 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: the wrong direction. 440 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: And not only that, this one point seven trillion dollars, 441 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,719 Speaker 2: it is going to still be there because a new 442 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: wave of students will come in year after year and 443 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: have more debt. So what the Biden administration is doing 444 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 2: is nothing systemically, not even as a recommendation to address 445 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: the problem of increasing tuition and increasing student debt. Instead, 446 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 2: these are all very big and expensive band aids on 447 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 2: a problem that ultimately Congress will have to solve. 448 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: I'm delighted that at Heritage you're working on this because 449 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: after the election, if we get a Congress that's interested 450 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: in real reform and a president this in real reform, 451 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: you're going to turn to places like Heritage for specific 452 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: implementation ideas. So, Adam, I think the work you're doing 453 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: is laying the base for a renaissance and a much 454 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,239 Speaker 1: healthier higher education program. And I want to thank you 455 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: for joining me, and I want to encourage our listeners 456 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: to visit Heritage dot org, who they can read about 457 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: the Student Loan Debt Forgiveness Plan as it is released 458 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: publicly in the next few months. And frankly, I work 459 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: with Heritage all the way back and preparing for Reagan, 460 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: so I know how important Heritage is across the board 461 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: on virtually every topic. And Adam, you are a great 462 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: representative of that extraordinary institution. Thank you so much. It's 463 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: been a pleasure to be here. Thank you to my guest, 464 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: Adam Kissel. You can read more about the Student Loan 465 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: net Forgiveness Plan on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 466 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: Newtworld is produced by Gainwick three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 467 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 468 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 469 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwick three sixty. If 470 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 471 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give 472 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 473 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my 474 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at gingwichtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. 475 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newsworld.