1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Halloway. So, Tracy, we've 3 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: been working together for a long time, a few years, 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: maybe coming on three and a half years or something, 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: and we've been doing three years, yeah, three years, and 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: we've been doing this podcast for a while. But do 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: you think we really know each other well? Like? Do 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: you think I don't know? Do you think so well? 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: The fact that you're asking me this question worries me 10 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: a bit and makes me think that maybe you think 11 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: that we don't know each other that well. But I 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: also feel like you share a lot of yourself on 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: social media, so I learned about you through that avenue. 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: That's a good point. And we've traveled together and stuff. 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: We've traveled to London together for work, and we've traveled 16 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: to Hong Kong and we've gone out to eat in uh, 17 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: you know, various night markets in Hong Kong. So I'd 18 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: say we know each other pretty well. I hope so 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: I really do. But why are you asking me? Because 20 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: one sometimes I wonder if, like I've always throughout my life, 21 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: I've had this sort of very weird interest in unconventional 22 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,839 Speaker 1: dietary habits, extreme diets in one way or another. I 23 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: was vegan for a long time. I was raised vegetarian. 24 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: I've always just sort of been fascinated by people who 25 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: take ideas to the extreme in one way. And I 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: sort of wonder whether we've ever talked about that at all. Well, 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: I was about to say that that I do know 28 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: about I know about your history as a vegan growing up, 29 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: and I know I think it wasn't until you were 30 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: in college or something like that that you actually ate meat. Yeah, 31 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: that's true, So you're probably crazy. Sorry, I can't imagine it. Yeah, 32 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: especially anyone who follows me on Instagram. Anyway, Probably people 33 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: who are listening are wondering where the heck we are 34 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: going with this conversation, aren't they? Yes, has Odd Lots 35 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: become a cooking show, which we totally should do, By 36 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: the way, I'd be totally fine with that, and I 37 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: was seriousness. But today I think we're going to have 38 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: a very nice crossover between multiple topics, because we're going 39 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: to be talking to an economist who has been blogging 40 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: for a long time and writing about various aspects of 41 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: the economy and monetary policy and stuff like that, who 42 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: also of late, has been writing about diet and obesity 43 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: and the research that he has done in this area, 44 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: and much of what he talks about is of high 45 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: interest to me. Today we are going to be talking 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: to Miles Kimball. He is an economics professor at the 47 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: University of Colorado in Boulder. He has a great blog 48 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: called supply Side Liberal, where he writes about all kinds 49 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: of topics, including economics. But lately he's been writing a 50 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: lot about obesity and diet, and he has become a 51 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: proponent of fasting, so going long intervals without eating anything 52 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: at all, and why that is an important and feasible 53 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: approach to losing weight. And I find his insights in 54 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: this journey to be extremely interesting. So on that note, Myles, 55 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. Thanks that's great 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: that you could have me so, Miles, Before we get 57 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: into your interests in obesity and the merits of fasting, 58 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: and the merits of eating high fat diets and all 59 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: this stuff which interests me a lot, I'm curious about 60 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: your career. You're you're an economist, You're at the University 61 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: of Colorado, Boulder. What's been your sort of primary focus 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: of study throughout these years. Oh well, actually I'm labeled 63 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: a macar economists, but I'm interested in almost everything. In fact, 64 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: just like people google themselves, I look up my ranking 65 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: on this research papers in economic site repic and of 66 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: course you want to cherry pick the one that makes 67 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: you rank the highest. And the thing I rank the 68 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: highest and is the diversity of of citations across fields 69 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: of economics. So I'm interested in almost everything. You have 70 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: to search hard for something within economics that I'm not 71 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: interested in, and you know many things that are outside 72 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: the traditional boundaries of economics. So does nutrition count as 73 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: economics in this context? Or I guess what I'm asking 74 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: is how you got interested in that topic. Let me 75 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: tell you my view on that first of all, and 76 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is true of other disciplines as well. 77 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: What defines economics to me is the training that economists get, 78 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: and of course that evolves over time, but very slowly. 79 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: And so given the training that economists have, I think 80 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: that the economists should go out and address every scientific 81 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: question that they are well prepared to address that they 82 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: have in economist terms of compared advantage at addressing the 83 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: other thing I think is that any important scientific question 84 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: you can't trust one discipline to do it. Every important 85 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: scientific question you need at least two different scientific disciplines 86 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: with different traditions to look at it, because every individual 87 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: scientific discipline, including economics, gets to have an orthodoxy and 88 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: it gets blind spots. So if you don't have two 89 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: different scientific disciplines looking at every important question, you're going 90 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: to get in big trouble. So obviously obesity, you will 91 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: just jump right into the topic at hand. Obesity is 92 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: a issue that intuitively spends many different disciplines and questions 93 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: about obesity because obviously there's health within that. There's nutrition, 94 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: public policy, sociology, certain aspects of behavioral stuff, why people 95 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: eat what they eat or live a certain lifestyle the 96 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: way they do. You know, I think it's pretty intuitive 97 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: that there are many ways to attack it. But before 98 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: we get to sort of some of your research on it, 99 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: what is the conventional story about how people become OBEs? 100 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: The mainstream view that is perhaps riddled with some blind spots, 101 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: which people eat too much and exercise too little. That's 102 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: the conventional view. And what's wrong with that view? Oh, 103 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't ask why people eat too much. I mean, 104 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: I guess the exercise too little is is easier to understand. 105 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: But even that, there's is more affected by what you 106 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: eat than you might think. You know, if you eat 107 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: things that give you a lot of energy or that 108 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: leave you with a lot of energy, then you'll tend 109 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: to move around more. And but it matters what you 110 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: eat and when you eat, because that will determine your 111 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: energy levels, it will determine how many calories you feel 112 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: like eating. So the blind spot is acting as if 113 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: we just consciously choose the amount we eat and consciously 114 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: choose the mount we move around. That's not true at all. 115 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: You have all kinds of things below the conscious level 116 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: that are and sometimes literally metabolic things that are determining 117 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: how much energy you burn and how many calories you eat. Wait, 118 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: but isn't the conventional wisdom that when it comes to 119 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: how much we want to eat, we are biologically programmed 120 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: to get basically as many calories and fat into our 121 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: system as possible. Right Like we evolved from cavemen that 122 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: had to harvest things, and they tried to save up 123 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: energy for the lean times, the lean winters, and that 124 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: continues today. And well, that I think is a myth. 125 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: I mean, the way to see that it's a myth 126 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: is that there are many many other types of animals 127 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: that had a similar kind of issue with, you know, 128 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: being able to survive the winter or lean times as 129 00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: humans did. And animals don't get obese like humans do. Obviously, 130 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: if you're a hibernating animal and you've got to sleep 131 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: through the winter, you've got to get fat before you 132 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: go and sleep through the winter, or you wouldn't make 133 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: it through the winter. But other than seasonal things like that, 134 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: animals don't get very fat, and evolutionarily, the reason is 135 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: there's a real cost to being fat. I mean, you 136 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: can't run away from predators as well if you get 137 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: too fat. That matters for that mattered for our ancestors too. 138 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: You can't you can't move as fast in order to 139 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: catch wild game either if you're too fat. So there 140 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: are plenty of evolutionary disadvantages to being too fat. This 141 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: this argument just doesn't hold water, though it's widely believed. 142 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: So what made you Before we get into your own 143 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: endeavors in the area and some of your thoughts on 144 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: the subject, what made you interested in this topic other 145 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: than the fact that you're a poly math who's who 146 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: is interested in everything. How did this become an area 147 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: of focus and you thought it would be worth putting 148 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: time into it? Well, really personal, it's because I've been 149 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: interested in losing weight myself, and I've never been dramatically overweight, 150 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: and the averages in our society have gone up enough 151 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: so that I don't think I've ever stood out as 152 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: being as being fat, but I've felt overweight and wanted 153 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: to lose weight, and so it's exploring over time what 154 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: would work. You know, back in the I think it 155 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: must have been the eighties. I listened to the advice 156 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,479 Speaker 1: that was out there to eat low fat, and so 157 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: so I did that with I mean I tend to 158 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: pursue things fairly thoroughly, so I ate a lot of 159 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: them milk and brand flakes, and I gained quite a 160 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: few pounds on that. So I've been interested just for 161 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: personal reasons and trying to keep my weight under control 162 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: or like many many people, and that sparks the intellectual interest. So, Miles, 163 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: what was it that you found in your research. I'm 164 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: guessing it's going to be something that contradicted the popular 165 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: nighties advice to eat a low fat diet, and Joe, 166 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: I know that partly by watching your Instagram and your 167 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: Twitter feeds where you're eating a lot of fatty foods. Well, 168 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: Joe has oversold my my research a little bit. So 169 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: I am indeed involved in research projects involving obesity, but 170 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: they have begun very very recently, since you know, not 171 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: not that long before I started blogging about this issue. 172 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: What I have done is identified some really great books 173 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: on the subject. So I'm a big fan of Jason 174 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: fun who wrote the book The Obesity Code and then 175 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: the Complete Guide the Fasting. He's a doctor who started 176 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: out as a kidney doctor, but then you know, a 177 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: lot of kidney problems come from diabetes. Eatis and diabetes 178 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: is associated with people being overweight. So pretty soon Jason 179 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: Flung got involved in trying to help his patients lose weight. 180 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: And he then started with putting them on a low 181 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: carb diet, and he found that was actually a little 182 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: hard for them, and that worked, but it was hard 183 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: for them to understand. He would tell them to not 184 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: eat bread, and then they would come back and said, oh, 185 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: I didn't eat any bread, I only ate pea and this, 186 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: And so he found that and they they didn't have 187 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: time and everything, and so he found that fasting that 188 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: is periods of time with eating essentially no food, you know, 189 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: drinking water or drinking coffee, drinking tea, but not eating 190 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: any food was actually easier for people to do then 191 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: to change in a complicated way that things they were eating, 192 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: and he had great success with that. It's also something 193 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: where not my research, but many people's research is starting 194 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: to verify the idea that fasting for periods of time 195 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: is really really helpful. And you know, sometimes you know, 196 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: the research isn't quite as on point as I'd like, 197 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: but it definitely reinforces. In other words, they're not doing 198 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: it exactly the way I would do it, but still 199 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: if it suggests that fasting is really really helpful, So Miles, 200 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 1: not to bang on about the conventional wisdom, but isn't 201 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: the response to fasting usually that you put your body 202 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: in starvation mode and your metabolism ends up slowing. I'll 203 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: tell you what puts you in starvation mode. If you 204 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: restrict your calories but spread them out throughout the day 205 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: every day, that will put your body in starvation mode. 206 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: That's a big mistake. What you don't want to do 207 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: is just cut back on the amount you eat, but 208 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: spread it out through every day in the kind of 209 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: timing that people normally do. That's a huge mistake. Puts 210 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: you in starvation mode. Fasting doesn't, because what happens is 211 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: if you have no food at all, then for anyone, 212 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: your insulin levels and other associated hormones will get low 213 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: enough so that your your body starts burning its own fat. 214 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: And once you burn your own fat, you've got energy 215 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: flowing through your bloodstream and you're going to be fine. 216 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: There's plenty of nutrition for yourselves because with designs for 217 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: periods of of no food if if not, our ancestors 218 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't have survived. So this is a really important distinction 219 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: that we need to clarify. The goal of going for 220 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: periods and so in your view and in the work 221 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: of some of these researchers, is not to reduce calories. 222 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: It's not to say, take a typical American diet and 223 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: then dropped the amount of calories by It's to lengthen 224 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: the window of time when you're getting no calories. But 225 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: during the periods when you are eating two eat sort 226 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: of a normal amount of food. Absolutely, Yeah, So what 227 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: happens during that window. Why is it important to sort 228 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: of restrict your eating to a narrow window even if 229 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: you end up eating the same amount of calories as 230 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't fast. Well, you know, thinking about it 231 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: as a window is really a convenient way to think 232 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: about it. But what actually matters is the length of 233 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: the periods of time with no food. You know, if 234 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: if you're eating at least once a day, then the 235 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: length of the eating window is by arithmetic, that's going 236 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: to be closely related to the periods of time with 237 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: no food. But it's really the length of periods of 238 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: time with no food that matters. And if you're you 239 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: skip a whole day of eating, obviously that then it 240 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: gets to be I think different from just the length 241 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: of the window. But what happens is most of us 242 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: are to some degree insulin resistance, and actually what that 243 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: means is your body then produces extra insulin. And what 244 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: that means is if we eat even a little bit 245 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: of food, we're going to hang onto the fat. And 246 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: so if you really have to get very very low 247 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: on your body's hormonal signals of insulin and related hormones 248 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: before you're going to burn your fat, and for most 249 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: of us. You know, if if you ate well all 250 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: your life, this might not be true. But for most 251 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: of us, we've already missed, missed our system up enough 252 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: that the only way to get to where you're really 253 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: burning a lot of fat is by substantial periods without food. 254 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: It's just things less than that you just won't cut 255 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: it very well. It might work a little bit, but 256 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: in the tough cases, let's put it that way. In 257 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: the tough cases, it's the periods without food that really matters. 258 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: On your blog, you talk about insulin and you liken 259 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: it to money supply or velocity of money supply, and 260 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: then you talk about inflation and you liken that to 261 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: body weight. Can you walk us through that parallel? How 262 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: do you see the connection? Absolutely that this is This 263 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: is one thing I can bring that's new to it 264 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: is comparative economic and obesity. So let's think about it. 265 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: So what happened in the seventies, This is something that, 266 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: by the way, is burned into the brains as central bankers. 267 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: And why I don't think we're going to have a 268 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: lot of inflation in the future because the way people 269 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: are trained in economics, PhD programs and the way the 270 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: people come out of financial backgrounds feeling about inflation. It's 271 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: like that was a big bad example in the seventies 272 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: when we increase the money supply too much for a 273 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: variety of reasons, and we got the double digit in 274 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: lation in the seventies. And then how did that end? 275 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: It ended when Paul Looker decided, you know what, I'm 276 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: willing to have a recession to bring down inflation. Okay, 277 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: you could try to bring down inflation without from double 278 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: digits to you know, four without a recession, but good luck. 279 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: The success rate of trying to bring down inflation without 280 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: a long way, like you know, eight percentage points or 281 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: something without without a serious recession or some kind of 282 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: recession is not so great. So the analogy is, if 283 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: you're significantly overweight, good luck trying to bring down your 284 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: weight without the equivalent of a recession, which here is 285 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: a period of time with no eating. The big difference 286 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: I've got to say is recessions are horrible, but fasting 287 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: it's not. Fasting is remarkably easy if you do it right. Well, 288 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: let's talk about that aspect, because I wonder if there's 289 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: a behavioral economics sort of substory within this or just 290 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: a behavioral story at all. Because people are sort of 291 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: familiar with various adjacent diet ideas. So people have obviously 292 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: been pitched the low carb idea for a long time. 293 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: That's pretty well known in popular culture. The keto diet, 294 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: which is pretty similar ideas also, people have heard that 295 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: buzzword a lot. But one of the persistent problems with 296 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: almost any scheme via which people lose weight is the 297 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: ability to stick to the plan, And so people come 298 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: up with all kinds of personal tricks to stick to it, 299 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: but in the end that proves to be very difficult. 300 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 1: So maybe some diet will work for three months and 301 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: then people revert. So what is it about the fasting 302 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: approach that you say is easy and which in your 303 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: view creates a higher degree of durability? Shows that well, 304 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: first of all, I want to say that it's proven 305 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: that this is durable. Jason fun has good experience with 306 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: this particularly, But why is it so? First of all, 307 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: the great secret is that a low carb diet and 308 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: fasting go brilliantly together. The fasting is really hard if 309 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: you're eating a lot of sugar and bread and potatoes 310 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: and stuff in your normal diet and then you try 311 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: to go straight over to fast. And so most people's 312 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: experience of having a period with no food is pretty 313 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: unpleasant because they're going straight from their usual, you know, 314 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: diet with the sugar and the processed food and the 315 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: bread and the potatoes and the rice and everything, to fast. 316 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: Think that is tough, That is tough, That is painful. 317 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: But if you're eating low carb h you know, no, 318 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, you basically stay away from bread and potatoes 319 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: and rice and sugar, and and you know, if you 320 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: stay away from sugar, you're gonna pretty much have to 321 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: stay away from most processed foods too. So sometimes people 322 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: talk about processed foods as the big bad but but 323 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: you can't really distinguish processed foods from foods with sugar 324 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: very well. There. You know, almost processed foods have sugar 325 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: in them. So who knows whether it's processed foods that 326 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: are bad or foods with sugar in them, because they're 327 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: almost the same thing. But if you if you stay 328 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: away from sugar and bread and potatoes and rice, and 329 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: then you can fast. And here's what I'll say. It's 330 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: not like you're not going to be hungry at all. 331 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: But it's a mild form of hunger. It's not insistent hunger. 332 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: So what do I mean by a mild form of hunger? 333 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: I mean that you can distract yourself if you have 334 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: a if you have a good TV show, you're not 335 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: going to feel it while you're watching the TV show. 336 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: If you're busy with work, you're not going to feel it. 337 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: In fact, I time my fast to be my big 338 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: busy work days. You know you can. You don't have 339 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: to do a regiment. The funny thing about these fasting books, 340 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: including Bason Funds, is they have all these systems for 341 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: the timing of the fast. But the beautiful thing about 342 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: fasting is you do it whatever the heck do you 343 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: feel like it. It doesn't have to be on any schedule. 344 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: Any substantial period of time with no food is going 345 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: to help you lose weight and help, you know, improve 346 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: your body system, and a variety of other ways too, 347 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: So you don't have to do it in any regular way. 348 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: It you need to have enough discipline to do a 349 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: certain total amount of fasting of periods with no food, 350 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: but any old schedule. You want substantial periods of time 351 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,479 Speaker 1: with no food, make sure you're you can you've got 352 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff going, so you can be distracted, 353 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: you know, even then I'm you know, if you real quickly, 354 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: when you talk about a substantial period of time, what 355 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: are you talking about? Well, so you experiment on yourself 356 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: and see what works. So one of the simple facts 357 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: about losing weight, and there's some interesting science behind this, 358 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: but it's a lot easier when that that when your 359 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: weight is high to begin with, then as you get 360 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: closer to go away. And so at the beginning, just 361 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: going off sugar is gonna do a ton for you 362 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: in terms of losing weight. And if you go off 363 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: sugar and bread and potatoes and rice, you're going to 364 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: lose a lot of weight. Typically that might take you 365 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: let's say that takes you ten pounds, then a plateau, 366 00:22:54,480 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: then you can maybe you get another fifteen just from eating, 367 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: uh you know, for a while. Anyway, while you're an 368 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: active weight loss, eating just once a day. So you 369 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: eat once a day. For when I say once a day, 370 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: you might have a four hour eating window and basically 371 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: within the realm of low carb you basically eat whatever 372 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: you want as much as you want within a four 373 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: hour window. And that twenty hour period of fasting before 374 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: the next day, you're gonna lose a lot of weight 375 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: from that. And then you know, if you plateau and 376 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: you still or maybe you plateau and you're creeping up 377 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: a little bit, then you know you can skip a 378 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: whole day of eating. And the thing is, if you 379 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: do it gradually like this, if you do it in 380 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: those three steps, you'll find it isn't so hard. You know, 381 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: because you've gone off sugar and you know, some other carbs. First, 382 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: you don't even start trying to do the fasting until 383 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: you've done that. And then because the fasting as associated 384 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: with the low carb it's easier. And then you know, 385 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 1: if you've been fasting for twenty hours for many, many days, 386 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,719 Speaker 1: you kind of have the tricks down and you've figured 387 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: out how to distract yourself and everything, and it's not 388 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: insistent hunger. So going a whole day without food when 389 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: it's a busy day at work just isn't that hard. So, Miles, 390 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning of this conversation, you drew a bit 391 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: of an analogy between economics as a topic and nutritional 392 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: theory as a topic. And one parallel I see between 393 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: the these two things is that different economic theories or 394 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: schools fall in and out of fashion in the same 395 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: way that different nutritional theories fall in and out of 396 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: fashion throughout the years. So we used to be told 397 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: that cholesterol was bad, for instance, and now there's a 398 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: general recognition that maybe it's not as terrible for us 399 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: as we once thought it was. I guess I'm just wondering, like, 400 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: what confidence can we have in this theory that you're 401 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: talking about that this is the correct one if previous 402 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: theories have been discredited at various times, well, you should 403 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: only have a modest degree of confidence in it. I mean, 404 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: definitely try it. But we've got to do research on 405 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: all these things. So they're really you know, this stuff 406 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: is worth so much money for the federal budget. It 407 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: is pennywise and found foolish that the government is not 408 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: spending a huge amount of extra money on doing the 409 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: kinds of trials on all kinds of variations on this 410 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: theme to see whether they work or not. Basically, if 411 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: you have only a limited amount of government funding for 412 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: for the kinds of trials where you have some people 413 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: try one theory and some people try another and monitor 414 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: them carefully and collected data, if you only have a 415 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: limited amount of government money. You're only going to attest 416 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: the orthodox see and so you know, every once in 417 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: a while a study that's testing something other than the 418 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: orthodoxy manages to get funded, and we learn a lot 419 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 1: from that. But I mean, one of the best ways 420 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: to keep from an exploding federal budget deficit in the 421 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: future as the population ages is for us to actually 422 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: spend more money on obesity research. Now, you shouldn't have 423 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: confidence in what anybody's saying, including what I'm saying, without 424 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: a lot more research. What I'm saying is I have 425 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 1: enough confidence in this to know it ought to be 426 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: carefully researched. Miles. Final question here, So you, speaking of 427 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: study design, you say, okay, there should be more research. 428 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: You also hinted earlier in the discussion that in all 429 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: the studies you've read on the topic, you haven't totally 430 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: been satisfied with the approach. So let's say the National 431 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: Institute of Health were to come to you and say, 432 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: Miles Kimball, please design the gold standard study that would 433 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: help us determine whether a fasting regiment was truly a 434 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: healthy and sustainable way for people to lose weight. What 435 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: is the dream study that you would design Okay, first 436 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: of all, I'd love to do ten studies. No one 437 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: study can do it. But I mean, we can do 438 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: this because I've had a little bit email exchange with 439 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: the leader of the diets that study, and he'd be 440 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: happy to do this. He says, you know, if you 441 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: can get the funding for me, and it doesn't have 442 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: to be government funding, if there's if there's someone who 443 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: has a substantial amount of their own money willing to 444 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: fund this study, we will get it done. But what 445 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: I would do would be I would, first of all, 446 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 1: rather than focus on low car versus low fat, which 447 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: is a way some of the debate has been framed, 448 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: I would talk about having things low on the insulin index. 449 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: So the insulin index is a little bit like the 450 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: glycemic index, but it's much more directly focused on the 451 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: amount of insulin your body produces when you eat different foods, 452 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: and that matters because insulin is a signal, among many 453 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: other things, for your body to store fat, and low 454 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: levels of insulin and associated hormones are a signal for 455 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: your body to burn fat. So I would focus it 456 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: not on low car blow fat, although those are related. 457 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,719 Speaker 1: I would focus it on a low insulin index. And 458 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: of course then the second thing you'd want to study 459 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: is to really do fasting the way I would recommend 460 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: where you you know, which is also the way Jason 461 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: Fung recommends, where you have substantial periods without food. So 462 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: you've had several different arms of the study where people 463 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: were trying different things. I'd try to see how much 464 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: you get from low insulin index, and and so this 465 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: is it's not so easy to find data on the 466 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: insulin index, and the easiest place to find it is 467 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: a stally on my blog as I've organized it well. 468 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: But you take a look. And on the fast thing, 469 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Jason fun is great, except that 470 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: they get a little silly about these different specific schedules 471 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: that any old schedule will work. So anyway we could 472 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: get this study done looking at fast being looking at 473 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: low insulin index. Let me let me say one can 474 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: I say one other thing about studies. One of the 475 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: things you've got to realize is many people who are 476 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: counted as nutrition experts are relying heavily on in the 477 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: way they think about things on mouse and rats studies. 478 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: So I actually question that Jason Fung, by the way, 479 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: doesn't doesn't trust the mouse and rats studies either. But 480 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: my my logic is this, so you know, take you 481 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: know mice and rats that have been hanging around human 482 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: so you know, ten thousand years ago, I don't know. 483 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: I forget exactly how long had the agricultural revolution and 484 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: human being started eating brain and and the mice and 485 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: he started eating brain along with us. And so mouse 486 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: generations are only a few years and rat generations, so 487 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: mice and rats have had many, many, many more generations 488 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: to evolve to be well adapted to a high carb 489 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: diet than humans have. And so if high carb is 490 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: okay for mice and rats, I don't really trust that. 491 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 1: Now there are other problems, like the rats that are 492 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: used in the studies are actually genetically weird trained to rats, 493 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: so there's a whole other problem there. But even if 494 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: you just take the general category of mice and rats 495 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: that have been paining around humans for ten thousand years, 496 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: I worry that mice and rats are way way better 497 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,239 Speaker 1: adapted to high carb diets than humans are. And so 498 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: if you say, oh, high carb diet is fine for 499 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: a mouse or a rat, that doesn't I don't trust that. 500 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: As tell like me it's okay for humans. That's interesting. 501 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: I never thought about this idea that there's been so 502 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: many more right mouse and rat generations than there have 503 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: been human generations since the advent of grains. Miles Kimball, 504 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: fascinating discussion. I hope that you continue on this work 505 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: and we get to read about it and your blog. 506 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: I love hearing about new ideas and all kinds of categories, 507 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: and we really appreciate you coming up. Thank you so 508 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: much so, Tracy. You know why I really like that conversation, 509 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: um because you're fasting. No, it's not because it plays 510 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: to my biases at all. I would never that's never 511 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: why I would like something. Of Course, I like the idea, 512 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: of course, I like this idea. Of I feel like 513 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: we're living in a golden age in which people with 514 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: unconventional idea is on something could sort of plug away 515 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: and make progress towards becoming more mainstream. Like I'm thinking 516 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: about the different economic ideologies that we see emerging, whether 517 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: it's modern monetary theory and rethinking of deficits or people 518 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: advocating things like m g DP targeting and rethinking the FED. 519 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: I kind of see an analogy here. It's like all 520 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,479 Speaker 1: around the world and probably fakes to the Internet. There 521 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: are people who say, you know what, I think that 522 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: the current dominant ideology is wrong, and it feels like 523 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: they can We're in a moment where they can make 524 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: progress in overturning conventional wisdom. Joe, this plays into your 525 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: love of extremism in general. I guess that sounds bad, 526 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: doesn't it. But I guess I have to wonder is 527 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: this a good thing? Is it a good thing that 528 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about different sides of an argument, different extreme 529 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: sides of an argument, rather than trying to come to 530 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: a more moderate consense US. I don't have an answer, 531 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: but it seems worth questioning. I guess in the end, 532 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: maybe I just restated another way of saying letter my biases. 533 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,239 Speaker 1: Before we go, I mean, I have to mention my 534 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: all time favorite of food and economic story, which I 535 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: think I've told you before, Joe, go on. Okay, So 536 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: we talked about cholesterol, right, and how people used to 537 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: think cholesterol was bad. So in the late nineties sixties, 538 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: the US had an inflation problem and the government was 539 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: desperately trying to bring down inflation in all sorts of ways, 540 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: and uh, one of the problems where price increases were 541 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: actually showing up, or one of the things where price 542 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: increases were actually showing up was in egg prices. And so, 543 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: according to Robert Samuelson's The Great Inflation and It's Aftermath, 544 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: which is a really good book that everyone should read, 545 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: the president at the time actually told the Agriculture Secretary 546 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: that the Sir in general should issue alerts about the 547 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: hazards of cholesterol in eggs and try to get people 548 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: to stop buying them in order to bring down the price. 549 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: I remember you telling that story. It's so good. It's 550 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: also so depressing because you just think about how many 551 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: things in modern life have origins like that. It's it's 552 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: like you almost don't want to even go there because 553 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: when you start feeling it back, you'll probably just be 554 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: depressed left and right at how much conventional wisdom has 555 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: such a cynical origin like that. Right, And for the 556 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: rest of the century, we all thought that eggs were 557 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: full of cholesterol and they were terrible to eat in 558 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: nowadays they're actually considered healthy. And there are people who 559 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: still eat egg whites without the yolks. They're still people 560 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: who voted the yolk, which just seems completely crazy to me. 561 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: That's exactly right, all right. Um, shall we call it 562 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: for the Odd Thoughts Nutritional Hour? Yes, let's not wrap 563 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 1: it up all right. This has been another edition of 564 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: the Odd Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow 565 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway, and I'm Joe Wisenthal. 566 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. And 567 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: you can follow our guest on Twitter, Miles Kimball. He's 568 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: at Miles Kimball. And you should follow our producer tofur Foreheads. 569 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: He is on Twitter at fore Heast, along with the 570 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg head of podcasts, Francesco Levie at Francesca Today. Thanks 571 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: for listening.