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Speaker 2: Everybody has a tribe out there, and all you need
Speaker 2: are two or three or four people and you're unsappable.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 3: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 3: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think,
Speaker 3: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 3: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 3: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 3: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 3: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Speaker 3: Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
Speaker 3: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 3: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 3: how they feed their good wolf. We hope you'll enjoy
Speaker 3: this episode from the archive. Our guest today is Jessica Hagey,
Speaker 3: an artist and writer best known for her award winning
Speaker 3: blog Indexed, a feature in the creative online space. Jessica
Speaker 3: has been illustrating, consulting, and speaking since two thousand and six.
Speaker 3: Her latest book is called How to Be Interesting, and
Speaker 3: she recently produced a series of illustrations for Forbes magazine
Speaker 3: based on the classic art of war.
Speaker 4: Hi, Eric and Chris, thanks for doing this, sure, sure,
Speaker 4: thanks telling me.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go ahead and get started. So our podcast
Speaker 1: is based on the old parable where there's a grandfather
Speaker 1: who is talking with his grandson and he says to him,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always battling. What is a good wolf represents kindness
Speaker 1: and love and peace, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents self pity, hatred, greed, Name your poison. The
Speaker 1: grandson thanks for a second and says to his grandfather, well,
Speaker 1: which one wins, And the grandfather says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So that's the premise of our podcast. So I'd like
Speaker 1: to start off by asking you what does that parable
Speaker 1: mean to you and how does it influence both your
Speaker 1: life and your work.
Speaker 2: As far as sort of a life philosophy, I've always
Speaker 2: whenever I heard Jeremy Bentham's happiness principle, which is the
Speaker 2: greatest good for the greatest number of people is what
Speaker 2: you should do, sort of like a guiding humanist thought.
Speaker 2: That's what I always thought of, is like that is
Speaker 2: when in doubt, go with that, and so sort of
Speaker 2: thinking of what should I do?
Speaker 4: What should I do here?
Speaker 2: It's what makes the most people happy, and so sort
Speaker 2: of guiding there is the best answer, and usually that
Speaker 2: ends up being something that's not necessarily greedy, but it's
Speaker 2: greedy in a long term way as opposed to like
Speaker 2: short term, quick quick jabs and things like that.
Speaker 1: That's an interesting We had another author and musician on
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, and when we talked about
Speaker 1: it to him, he his his thing, he said, was,
Speaker 1: you know, feeding the good Wolf. For him was really
Speaker 1: about how did he find time to do the work
Speaker 1: or the art in this case, And we got into
Speaker 1: a conversation about how short term, a lot of times
Speaker 1: it's easier to do what the people around you want
Speaker 1: you to do short term because that makes a short
Speaker 1: term happiness, but the long term, greater good comes from
Speaker 1: pursuing that thing that is yours. And your book You
Speaker 1: Know How to Be Interested, really touches on that an
Speaker 1: awful lot about how do you find that thing that
Speaker 1: is yours, how do you pursue it despite what other
Speaker 1: people around you might be saying, or what the the
Speaker 1: crowd is saying, and how that sort of does leave
Speaker 1: lead to the greatest good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of times it's weird. The crowd doesn't
Speaker 2: want other people to be happy. It's sort of the
Speaker 2: bitter voice rises above the really like encouraging ones so often,
Speaker 2: and I don't know why that is. I think we
Speaker 2: hear compliments and we dismiss them, but we hear we
Speaker 2: hear an insult and we carry it with us for.
Speaker 4: Just years and getting through that.
Speaker 2: And really thinking like what's encouraging and what's the good thing.
Speaker 2: That's really hard sometimes, but if people can do that,
Speaker 2: then it saves everybody a lot of hassle.
Speaker 3: That's the bad wolf being very powerful.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the bad.
Speaker 2: Wolf tends to get a lot of press, And I
Speaker 2: don't know why that is, because I think people like
Speaker 2: like that sort of like gossip nastiness, but that's that's
Speaker 2: not as fun even for a minute.
Speaker 3: I guess I think he gets a lot of press
Speaker 3: because he looks like Brad Pitt. I mean, it's just
Speaker 3: a parable, But that's what I've heard.
Speaker 2: When I pictured the two will that you guys have,
Speaker 2: I pictured one a sort of like old and sort
Speaker 2: of like afflicted with scurvy and like in rags or
Speaker 2: the big stick and sort of like gray teeth and
Speaker 2: yellow eyes and just scowling, and the good wolf seemed
Speaker 2: really young and quiet and sort of hiding behind a
Speaker 2: tree like a little kid instead of an old man.
Speaker 1: Interesting, you were saying about the bad wolf and those
Speaker 1: voices somewhere in your book, and I was trying to
Speaker 1: find I can't find exactly. But you talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: working on improving your thoughts about yourself, and you have
Speaker 1: a quote that's really interesting where you say and caution,
Speaker 1: this could take years.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's ignoring the people who are nasty and
Speaker 2: sort of that old wolf sort of tone. And when
Speaker 2: you hear hear nasty words, you almost associate like a
Speaker 2: halatosis or a sickness with it. And when as soon
Speaker 2: as you get that sense of things to sort of
Speaker 2: mix up your senses is when you should run away.
Speaker 4: That bad smell is.
Speaker 1: Just it's almost makes it a comedic when someone is
Speaker 1: saying something you like that and you think of it
Speaker 1: like bad breath. That sort of could help take some
Speaker 1: of the sting away. Yeah, there's another part where you
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, you've got a little one that
Speaker 1: says just you know, basically, do something anything. It doesn't
Speaker 1: really so much matter. You know, if you're spending all
Speaker 1: your time thinking about what you should be doing versus
Speaker 1: just doing something. Sort of the old you know, as
Speaker 1: being an entrepreneur for years, the saying is you know, ready, fire, aim, right,
Speaker 1: it's just makes something happen.
Speaker 4: Oh totally. And I see that so much with my
Speaker 4: artist friends who.
Speaker 2: Have a thousand ideas and a thousand different ways to
Speaker 2: make beautiful, wonderful, fantastic objects and things. And if they
Speaker 2: just picked one thing and send an email to ten people,
Speaker 2: they'd be so much better off than making ten things
Speaker 2: and never telling anybody.
Speaker 4: About any other things they did.
Speaker 2: It's just sort of like, take something and run with it,
Speaker 2: and odds are it'll be great because if you like it,
Speaker 2: somebody else will to you.
Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about how your creative process.
Speaker 1: Do you make yourself sit down and try and sketch
Speaker 1: out ten index cards and you find one that's good?
Speaker 1: Do the ideas come to you? Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about how that works for you and maybe
Speaker 1: how it's changed over time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, When I first started, it was I was going
Speaker 2: to school at night for my MBA because I was
Speaker 2: working as a copywriter and my brain was going to
Speaker 2: mush because I was just sort of over and over
Speaker 2: and over again, repeating headlines and repeating sort of like
Speaker 2: cliches and wasted lines that would get approved. And I
Speaker 2: knew I needed something else because like part of my
Speaker 2: brain felt like it was atrophying in some way.
Speaker 4: I was taking a finance class.
Speaker 2: And everything was expressed in these charts, and I was like,
Speaker 2: you can tell the whole world's history in these weird
Speaker 2: little charts. So I started jomming down and I'd read
Speaker 2: around the same time that every writer needs a blog.
Speaker 2: So I put those two things together so I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have to write about what I had for breakfast or
Speaker 2: how my commute went, and it just sort of took off,
Speaker 2: and over time I realized that charts and graphs are
Speaker 2: basically sentence structures, and they have their own sort of
Speaker 2: visual grammar. So the is symbol, isn't it The equal
Speaker 2: sign is the verb of being, so equals is the
Speaker 2: all that ven Diagrams are basically sentences with conjunctions, and
Speaker 2: X y axes are a causes the subject predicates. So
Speaker 2: if you can use the English language, you can use
Speaker 2: a lot of graphs, And over time it's gotten easier
Speaker 2: for me to take sentences I hear a sentences in
Speaker 2: my head and turn them into graphs.
Speaker 1: I will say it now and it'll be in the
Speaker 1: show notes. But people should definitely be going out and
Speaker 1: looking at your things. And one of your one of
Speaker 1: the favorite ones that you've done, that I've got hanging
Speaker 1: on my on my wall in my office is the
Speaker 1: one that's got two circles, and one is a little
Speaker 1: one that's got an arrow going to it saying your
Speaker 1: comfort zone, and the other is the big circle that
Speaker 1: says where the magic has weapons. And it's that sort of,
Speaker 1: you know, constant reminder that if we spend all our
Speaker 1: time being comfortable, nothing really special happens. And I think,
Speaker 1: at least for me and a lot of people I know,
Speaker 1: we tend to equate comfort with happiness, and they are
Speaker 1: not the same thing. And I love the way you
Speaker 1: sort of diagramed that here, and a lot of the
Speaker 1: book really seems to sort of be about pushing yourself
Speaker 1: out of your comfort zone and out of sort of
Speaker 1: the same habitual, repeated patterns and finding variety in life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that diagram itself went all over
Speaker 2: the place and One of the things I actually thought
Speaker 2: about when I was trying to draw up that idea
Speaker 2: was the idea of inertia, which is, when you start
Speaker 2: going in one direction, it's easy to stay that way.
Speaker 2: But if you think about it, when you make any
Speaker 2: one direction, you have out of three hundred and sixty degrees,
Speaker 2: you're taking one degree, and there are three hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty nine degrees that you didn't take. And to ponder
Speaker 2: some of those every now and then, I think is
Speaker 2: not only healthy, but it's really comforting because you don't
Speaker 2: have to stay on the direction you're on. You can
Speaker 2: always pivot around and spin that circle a different way.
Speaker 1: Do you want to spend a couple of minutes and
Speaker 1: talk through some of the key points in your sort
Speaker 1: of how to be interesting? What are a couple of
Speaker 1: the key You've got ten steps, you want to maybe
Speaker 1: share a couple of them with us?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think the most the most important one is
Speaker 2: probably the first one, which is go exploring. And people
Speaker 2: a lot of times think that means I have to
Speaker 2: quit my job and buy a boat and circumnavigate the
Speaker 2: globe and learn five languages and go to ten countries
Speaker 2: and figure out how to fall in love with people
Speaker 2: of ten different races and backgrounds, and take up five
Speaker 2: different jobs.
Speaker 4: And it's so.
Speaker 2: Much smaller and more palatable than that. It's that if
Speaker 2: you just sort of go outside and listen a little
Speaker 2: bit more, you'll find out so many other things. And
Speaker 2: a good ex doesn't mean decades spent off doing something else.
Speaker 2: It could just mean ten minutes listening to a station
Speaker 2: you don't otherwise or talking to someone you otherwise wouldn't
Speaker 2: have spoken with. It's just sort of varying from what
Speaker 2: you're doing just a little bit, and it doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be painful.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's step one. How about how about step seven?
Speaker 1: Give it a shot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is one thing I've found through the Internet
Speaker 2: that is the most amazing thing. First of all, everybody
Speaker 2: has an email address. And if you can find anybody
Speaker 2: in the world, anybody you like or want to talk
Speaker 2: to or want to meet, and you can find their
Speaker 2: email address, you can connect with them almost immediately. And
Speaker 2: now you can do that with Twitter and Facebook and
Speaker 2: all these other things, and everyone is literally fingertips away
Speaker 2: from you, and you can find advice, help anything from
Speaker 2: anybody in literally seconds. And people a lot of times
Speaker 2: are so afraid to do that that they don't, And
Speaker 2: when the people actually do, they get through a lot
Speaker 2: more than you think they would. So just even taking
Speaker 2: a shot and reaching out the first step is huge.
Speaker 1: It is kind of amazing how close everybody is. If
Speaker 1: you you at least have a shot to talk to
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Although the person I really want
Speaker 1: to talk to, and I don't know that he's got
Speaker 1: an email address, or if he does, he probably doesn't
Speaker 1: check it very often, is Leonard Cohen. So if you
Speaker 1: come across Leonard Cohen's email address, anybody listening to this,
Speaker 1: send it my way.
Speaker 4: I'm sure we can make that happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's when he's not writing songs, he's often on
Speaker 1: a mountain somewhere meditating. But we'll track him down sooner
Speaker 1: or later for the show.
Speaker 4: Even if he just gets a note that's like yep, urging,
Speaker 4: thanks for that. I mean, wouldn't that be be sort
Speaker 4: of an accomplishment and of.
Speaker 1: Itself, Yes, it definitely would.
Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about how this
Speaker 3: book came to be?
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, this is kind of a weird story. So
Speaker 2: I write for Forbes, which Forbes is fantastic saying like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, I'll come post what you want to think
Speaker 2: about and will help share it with the world. So
Speaker 2: at the time, I was living in London and I
Speaker 2: was putting things together and one of the things that
Speaker 2: kept coming up was, Okay, there's only so much time
Speaker 2: in the day, and what is the best what is
Speaker 2: the biggest business virtue that anyone can have at this
Speaker 2: point in time?
Speaker 4: And it wasn't being nice, and it.
Speaker 2: Wasn't being skilled, and it wasn't being anything other than
Speaker 2: being really interesting. So sort of a tongue in cheek like,
Speaker 2: here's how to be interesting, And I threw it up
Speaker 2: on Forbes and it I put it up in October
Speaker 2: of twenty eleven, and around New Year's a lot of
Speaker 2: people sort of latched on to be I'm going to
Speaker 2: be interesting as a New Year's resolution, which sounds bizarre,
Speaker 2: but it just started to go everywhere and people started
Speaker 2: to forward it around, share it, and it got all
Speaker 2: these crazy hits. And so then we put it together
Speaker 2: as a book and expand on the idea and people
Speaker 2: really run with it. And it's been a lot of
Speaker 2: fun because the more I think about it, it really
Speaker 2: is it's true if you're not interesting, You're going to
Speaker 2: be overlooked for pretty much everything from do you want
Speaker 2: to go to lunch? To do you want this job?
Speaker 2: To do you want to be president of whatever country
Speaker 2: you live in? And it's a fun word, it's a
Speaker 2: loaded word.
Speaker 1: More and more it does seem that is the noise
Speaker 1: level increases. As everybody can talk to everybody in, the
Speaker 1: noise level increases. And this is nothing new. Everybody talks
Speaker 1: about this, just how you do have to find a
Speaker 1: way to stand out and how being yourself is probably
Speaker 1: the best way to do that. But I think for
Speaker 1: a lot of people that still remains very challenging, and
Speaker 1: even finding out who are what that is? What is
Speaker 1: that process a discovery part of what you are leading
Speaker 1: people through in the book a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think the book really is sort of pokes at
Speaker 2: without directly stabbing at the idea of vulnerability, which is
Speaker 2: if you can just let what your natural inclinations are
Speaker 2: lead you, you'll be more likely to become an interesting
Speaker 2: person than if you were to sort of go with
Speaker 2: the flow and behave yourself and sort of mask the
Speaker 2: things that.
Speaker 4: Sort of stand out to you while you're rolling along
Speaker 4: in the flow.
Speaker 2: Of everything else, and really being yourself is a lot
Speaker 2: harder these days than you think, because so many people
Speaker 2: have this idea of what they're supposed to look like
Speaker 2: and dress like and talk like and sound like and
Speaker 2: tweet like and everything else, and even finding a minute
Speaker 2: variation in that anymore is becoming incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1: We start off by talking about feeding the good wolf.
Speaker 1: For you was sort of the idea of the greatest
Speaker 1: good for the greatest number of people. And I'm interested
Speaker 1: in how that how you see that tying into a
Speaker 1: lot of what you're talking about in the book and
Speaker 1: your work, which is really about finding out who you
Speaker 1: are and not going with sort of the crowd and
Speaker 1: the greatest the number of people. How does that work
Speaker 1: its way back around to being the greatest good for
Speaker 1: the greatest number of people.
Speaker 2: When I was writing advertising, I was writing for JP
Speaker 2: Morgan Chase, and I was writing a lot of broch
Speaker 2: stores about home equity, lines of credit. I was writing
Speaker 2: about how subprime mortgages are the best thing that ever
Speaker 2: happened to you, how you can get whatever you need
Speaker 2: right now if you just refinance your life, and something
Speaker 2: about that. Even before everything crash, just felt kind of weird,
Speaker 2: and even if I was getting a paycheck and doing
Speaker 2: what I was supposed to do work wise, it was
Speaker 2: still kind of sketchy. And I couldn't really articulate why
Speaker 2: it was sketchy because people would just sort of be like,
Speaker 2: it's a bank, what are you doing? And guessing at
Speaker 2: what's more fun is just sharing fun ideas and being,
Speaker 2: if nothing else benign as opposed to negative out there,
Speaker 2: and at this point in my career, to be positive,
Speaker 2: if not benign, and I count that as a win.
Speaker 3: We could all use the occasional nudge, a little wake
Speaker 3: up from the autopilot we fall into in our day
Speaker 3: to day routine. That's why we send brief text reminders
Speaker 3: to listeners of the show for free. The texts help
Speaker 3: you stay on track with what you're learning from the
Speaker 3: podcast episodes we release on Tuesdays and Fridays. They periodically
Speaker 3: prompt you to pause for a second and become more
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Speaker 3: week's podcast topics in a bite sized, short and simple manner.
Speaker 3: We've heard from listeners that these texts help them take
Speaker 3: a moment to reconnect with what's important amidst the busyness
Speaker 3: of daily life. Someone said it feels like a little
Speaker 3: bit of wisdom is being whispered into my psyche, which
Speaker 3: I thought was cool. So if you'd like to hear
Speaker 3: from us a few times a week via text, go
Speaker 3: to oneufeed dot net slash text and sign up for free.
Speaker 1: One of the things that as we've talked to more
Speaker 1: people about this, it seems to come up about feeding
Speaker 1: your good wolf, as it it takes help that did
Speaker 1: a lot of us tend to fall into sort of
Speaker 1: habitual patterns or a lot of the things that you're
Speaker 1: even talking about here take a lot of bravery encourage.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about the help that
Speaker 1: you get in your life, whether it be in the
Speaker 1: past or now, for people who sort of help you
Speaker 1: to feed your good wolf.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And the one thing I have to say is
Speaker 2: more than any other venue, the Internet, And as much
Speaker 2: as you can be afraid of the Internet and the bad,
Speaker 2: sketchy folks out there, it's full of good people too.
Speaker 4: And when you reach out and you say here's me,
Speaker 4: here's what I care about, good people will reach out
Speaker 4: to you.
Speaker 2: And so if in your life you're sort of being
Speaker 2: bombed and you're beaten down and you're sort of just
Speaker 2: listening to negative voices. There are really good people on
Speaker 2: the internet who will encourage you and say, no, this
Speaker 2: is good, this is a good idea, this is this
Speaker 2: is useful, keep doing this. And at the time I started,
Speaker 2: I was just sort of living in this sort of
Speaker 2: miasmic bubbling b the work, work, work, go to sleep,
Speaker 2: go to school, go to work, pile. And the Internet
Speaker 2: really gave me a sort of outlet to be like, no,
Speaker 2: this is bigger than that. You can be you can
Speaker 2: be smarter than that, you can be better than that.
Speaker 2: You can do other things. And the encouragement you find
Speaker 2: from strangers can do a lot, even if in your
Speaker 2: day to day life you're sort of being beaten down
Speaker 2: and told to behave and all of those nasty things.
Speaker 2: Did that even answer the question, and I talk myself
Speaker 2: in a circle.
Speaker 1: No, it sort of did. My question following would be,
Speaker 1: did how has that sort of finding people who are
Speaker 1: supportive virtually how does that translate into finding people in
Speaker 1: your physical life that are that are supportive? Does that so,
Speaker 1: say you start from a place where maybe you don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of that, you find that sort of
Speaker 1: support on the internet or virtually. Do you find that
Speaker 1: that over time starts to translate into your real life
Speaker 1: or your physical life.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 2: There are so many people that I knew from the
Speaker 2: Internet that once I met in person, it was just like, Oh,
Speaker 2: it's you. You're one of my best friends in the world,
Speaker 2: and I've never met you, and now I have to
Speaker 2: hug you and you have to do everything together.
Speaker 4: And they aren't just on the Internet.
Speaker 2: They are real people out there too, And you can
Speaker 2: pick up the phone, you can pick up the Skype,
Speaker 2: you can get on a plane, you can go to
Speaker 2: whatever meetup or conference or crazy thing where all these
Speaker 2: people actually are, and when you meet them, you will
Speaker 2: feel so relieved. It's insane because everybody really is. Everybody
Speaker 2: has a tribe out there, and all you need are
Speaker 2: two or three or four people and unstoppable.
Speaker 1: That's one of the things about the Internet that just
Speaker 1: I love. I mean, I'm one of those people often
Speaker 1: talk about one of the things you can do to
Speaker 1: sort of feed your good wolf is to do sort
Speaker 1: of gratitude or think about gratitude. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I just every time I think about gratitude, I
Speaker 1: think about the Internet. It just blows me away how
Speaker 1: wonderful and amazing it is, and how I sometimes think
Speaker 1: about what my life would have been like, because I'm
Speaker 1: a little bit older, if the Internet had been around
Speaker 1: when I was a teenager, you know, if I could
Speaker 1: have found and reached out broader than sort of the
Speaker 1: small area that and people that you know, that I
Speaker 1: was surrounded by. If you know, had the whole world
Speaker 1: been sort of available at that point, what that would
Speaker 1: have been like. And I do think it's really exciting,
Speaker 1: and you hear these really touching stories about, you know,
Speaker 1: people who are somewhat isolated in some way, whether they
Speaker 1: live in a small town or and they are able
Speaker 1: to connect to something bigger themselves outside of that on
Speaker 1: the Internet. It is really transforming for them.
Speaker 2: I think for every story of bullying or kitty porn
Speaker 2: or weirdness or like Chris Hansen like please sit down
Speaker 2: and have a kookie story, as you find out there
Speaker 2: there are ten hundred one thousand other stories of people
Speaker 2: who were like I met my true love online. I
Speaker 2: met people who made everything happen for me online. I
Speaker 2: found my new job online.
Speaker 4: I figured out how to get my life.
Speaker 2: On tack online and it's not just pixels, it's real
Speaker 2: people behind it, and I think that's the.
Speaker 4: Power of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what are in your acknowledgments you have
Speaker 1: in the book. You've got a great chart that sort
Speaker 1: of again it's going to fail trying to describe it,
Speaker 1: but it's basically your thanks Internet chart. You know. It
Speaker 1: shows that the more you can do more things and
Speaker 1: you can know more people as a result of the Internet.
Speaker 1: And I think, certainly you know that's why we're talking.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean half the time I'll get an
Speaker 2: email from somebody that it's like, so, have you heard
Speaker 2: about this or do you know anybody about this? I'll
Speaker 2: be like, yes, I do, and I have nothing to
Speaker 2: do with that, but I know somebody who does. And
Speaker 2: I can play Matchmaker and if I get to play
Speaker 2: match Maker once a day online through my stilly Yahoo
Speaker 2: email address, I've done all sorts of good.
Speaker 1: What's next for you? So you've done this book, You've
Speaker 1: been running this is indexed blog for a long time.
Speaker 1: What's the next big project?
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm illustrating sun Zou's Art of War, which
Speaker 2: sounds very antagonistic and weird, but when you really read it.
Speaker 4: The whole idea behind it is the more you think.
Speaker 2: The less you fight, and so taking that entirely old
Speaker 2: really I am an MBA. Watching me destroy title and
Speaker 2: turning it into something a lot more thoughtful and a
Speaker 2: lot more useful is really fun for me. So that
Speaker 2: is up on Forbes.
Speaker 1: Too, Less crankiness, more marveling. Right, that's your line.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think there's.
Speaker 2: The whole idea of what is it bark less peror
Speaker 2: more or something like that.
Speaker 4: I've seen it on bumper stickers where it's just sort
Speaker 4: of stop.
Speaker 2: Complaining and really think about what's going on, and you
Speaker 2: know what, it's not so bad anyway.
Speaker 4: And the more you get on that, the better the
Speaker 4: better you feel, because I can my husband.
Speaker 2: Calls it my worst case scenario brain, where I can
Speaker 2: take something that's minorly irritating or awful and just spin
Speaker 2: it into Okay, this is the worst case scenario. Our
Speaker 2: house is going to implode, I'm going to die, tumor
Speaker 2: is going to spring out of my brain, everything's going
Speaker 2: to go to hell, we're all going to get arrested.
Speaker 4: And really you can just step back and say.
Speaker 2: No, actually, it's it's going to be fine and getting
Speaker 2: to that point is hard, but it's healthier.
Speaker 1: And so how do you do that? Because that does
Speaker 1: seem to be for you know, as we've talked to
Speaker 1: people and we've sort of explored this theme that is,
Speaker 1: you know, the bad Wolfe's biggest job is that sort
Speaker 1: of internal negative self talk, whether it's impending doom or
Speaker 1: you're not good enough or all those different things. So
Speaker 1: how do you battle that sort of day to day?
Speaker 1: Have you found that over time it just sort of
Speaker 1: goes away because you've sort of trained it. What's been
Speaker 1: your experience with that?
Speaker 2: I am battling imposter syndrome every step of everything. It's
Speaker 2: always sort of you're just a fraud and you just
Speaker 2: got away with this, and you're just lucky because somebody
Speaker 2: li in to it, and you just you sort of
Speaker 2: got away with this, and you're just sort of this
Speaker 2: dumb person who's throwing things on the internet and you're
Speaker 2: not really smart at all and blah, And I can
Speaker 2: talk myself into that corner until I'm just like oooh,
Speaker 2: and even when you stack up. I did this, and
Speaker 2: I did that, and I accomplished this, and I moved
Speaker 2: over here and I did this and this and this
Speaker 2: and this and this. No matter how big the stack is,
Speaker 2: there's still that voice in the back of your head
Speaker 2: that saying, yeah, you're just a fraud and you just
Speaker 2: got away with it. And I don't know if that
Speaker 2: will ever go away, but you really have to keep
Speaker 2: eroding it every day. It's sort of a title thing,
Speaker 2: like the sand comes up and the sand comes out,
Speaker 2: and you just have to sort of keep plowing my head.
Speaker 2: I don't think I'll ever be really confident in what
Speaker 2: I'm doing. I just have to keep trying to earn
Speaker 2: where I am.
Speaker 1: I think we all suffer from that to one degree
Speaker 1: or the other. But in my book, you deserve all
Speaker 1: the success that you've had. So with that, we are
Speaker 1: out of time. So Jessica, I want to thank you
Speaker 1: for being on the podcast. It's been a real pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you. I encourage people to thank you at
Speaker 1: your work online and thank you very much, and we'll
Speaker 1: talk to you soon.
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