1
00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:08,799
Speaker 1: Hmm. Greetings and salutations. This is it could happen here.

2
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm Garrison Davis. I'm part of the research and writing team,

3
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:18,440
Speaker 1: and today we have a special treat for everybody. Here.

4
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,479
Speaker 1: We are going to be running an interview with Jeff Man.

5
00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,720
Speaker 1: Jeff Man is a co author of the fantastic book

6
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 1: Climate Leviathan, A Political Theory of Our Planetary Future. UM.

7
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: Jeff Man is a as a as a professor, he

8
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:40,680
Speaker 1: teaches political economy and economic geography. UM. He's done lots

9
00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,120
Speaker 1: of writing on capitalism and climate change. He is a

10
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 1: He's a fantastic resource and I highly recommend his book.

11
00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,760
Speaker 1: Um it can get a little academic, um making has

12
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,680
Speaker 1: a lot of has a lot of big fancy words

13
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,960
Speaker 1: that I probably I would have a hard time saying

14
00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,959
Speaker 1: out loud, but um, it's a very it's a very

15
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: good read. So I would would recommend picking up the

16
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 1: book if you want to read about economics and climate

17
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,119
Speaker 1: change and all that kind of stuff. But thankfully we

18
00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,960
Speaker 1: interviewed him here in the pod, so if you're more

19
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,840
Speaker 1: so inclined, you can listen to this interview that's going

20
00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:17,559
Speaker 1: to play right after I'm done talking. So without further

21
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,160
Speaker 1: ado Here is our interview with Jeff Man talking about

22
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 1: politics and climate change. Let's let's go. So we're the

23
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,080
Speaker 1: show we're looking to do. The first season of this,

24
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,319
Speaker 1: which we dropped like years ago twenty nineteen, was like

25
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,720
Speaker 1: kind of uh my, my, My basic experiences journalists isn't

26
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,800
Speaker 1: conflict reporting, so like Rack Siria Ukraine, And it was like,

27
00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,800
Speaker 1: what would happen if there were to be a civil

28
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,039
Speaker 1: conflict in the United States? How would that actually look?

29
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 1: How do these things look in the modern world? And

30
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,320
Speaker 1: all that jazz. This season we're doing what is the

31
00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 1: world going to be? Just based on what we know

32
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,400
Speaker 1: of of how climate change is going to affect things,

33
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 1: and um, that's all too bleak to get into without

34
00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,760
Speaker 1: trying to provide some positive possibilities for how things could be,

35
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: how adaptations that could be made and whatnot. And I

36
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,120
Speaker 1: think what's so interesting about your book is it provides

37
00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 1: all of the difference. With the exception of the best

38
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 1: case scenario, all the scenarios you present seem very plausible

39
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 1: to me. And I guess I'm wondering, of of the

40
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 1: ones that you've put forward in your book, is there

41
00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,520
Speaker 1: one that seems more plausible to you right now, are

42
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 1: you kind of at at a point where you're expecting

43
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,560
Speaker 1: there to be kind of a regional breakdown as to like,

44
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,000
Speaker 1: you know, this chunk of the world goes to this

45
00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,519
Speaker 1: kind of climate mouthing climate Leviathan, is this sort of

46
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,960
Speaker 1: chunk of the world, Like, I'm wondering what you're seeing

47
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 1: right now, just as we're watching ships start to really

48
00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:49,160
Speaker 1: hit home for people. Yeah, yeah, I I'm always reluctant

49
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,919
Speaker 1: in these instances to say that I know more than

50
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,600
Speaker 1: anyone else you know about what's going to happen, So

51
00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: I hope it doesn't come across as in any way

52
00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,720
Speaker 1: like me agnosticating um, which actually, to be honest with you,

53
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,720
Speaker 1: Jewel is much more comfortable doing the guy I wrote

54
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,360
Speaker 1: the book with, who you should also chat with if

55
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,480
Speaker 1: you ever get the chance, brilliant guy. Um. But I

56
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,280
Speaker 1: think you're right. I do think there's a sort of

57
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 1: fragmentation right now, Um, whether or not like geo politically

58
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,960
Speaker 1: in the sense like you said, regional you know, breakdowns,

59
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 1: or the way that like kind of different trajectories could

60
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 1: be happening simultaneously in different parts of the planet. How

61
00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,640
Speaker 1: long that can last, or whether or not it just

62
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,280
Speaker 1: stays that way. I think it's a super interesting question,

63
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 1: Like it does seem to me that, you know, the

64
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,320
Speaker 1: Chinese state for a variety of reasons, some of which

65
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 1: I probably can have a handle on, and others I

66
00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,960
Speaker 1: just don't know enough to know. The Chinese state, you know,

67
00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 1: approaches these problems in a really different way than we

68
00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,240
Speaker 1: do in North America or Western Europe for example. UM

69
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 1: and and how they handle like what is clearly fucking

70
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 1: coming down their pipe, you know, not just with these floods,

71
00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,520
Speaker 1: but you know, the overall like the soil loss um,

72
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,839
Speaker 1: sort of massive ternment in the West um an urbanization

73
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,400
Speaker 1: at a scale that you know is like completely unsustainable

74
00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,560
Speaker 1: because the countryside is you know, can't support its people anymore.

75
00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,000
Speaker 1: You know, they have these permit systems and everything. How

76
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,000
Speaker 1: they approach that whole problem from like ecological breakdown perspective

77
00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 1: could very much, I think, take a kind of Leviathan

78
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: like form, but a much more authoritarian version. It will not,

79
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,240
Speaker 1: I don't think in the short term, look like now

80
00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 1: in terms of a sort of revolutionary uh process UM.

81
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,520
Speaker 1: But here in North America, I think that this idea

82
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,799
Speaker 1: that you know, Joe and I tried to float about

83
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,680
Speaker 1: capital taking over and trying to basically maintain itself at

84
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 1: the top of the hierarchy. UM. And you know, basically

85
00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,159
Speaker 1: allow the planet to break down, but to have the

86
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: social uh, to maintain the social order in its own interests.

87
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,200
Speaker 1: I actually still think that's unfolding right front of us, UM.

88
00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 1: And I think Western Europe is the same that just

89
00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 1: managing it in that, you know, in a very different

90
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of technocratic way. UM. But I think you're right

91
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,560
Speaker 1: to identify not a global kind of coalescence, but rather

92
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 1: a whole variety of conflicting trajectories. That would be my

93
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,600
Speaker 1: take on it right now. How do you when you're

94
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,719
Speaker 1: trying to have these conversations about like what's what's coming

95
00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,640
Speaker 1: down the pipe with people who are less buried in

96
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,680
Speaker 1: this than you are, how do you introduce the concept

97
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:35,919
Speaker 1: of climate Leviathan to them? Well, so, I mean I

98
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,880
Speaker 1: run into this. I mean this might be a terrible

99
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:45,120
Speaker 1: uh what's the right word of comparison, um to make?

100
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 1: But I run into this a lot, like you know,

101
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,159
Speaker 1: just in the like classroom, like with students and stuff

102
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: like that. And basically the way I usually begin it

103
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 1: is I asked the question you know because people often

104
00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,839
Speaker 1: I think quite rightly make certain kinds of uh agnostications

105
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 1: about uh, you know, climate change kind of running out

106
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,240
Speaker 1: of control and destroying life as we know it in

107
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,800
Speaker 1: a rather immediate way. And and I usually just say, like,

108
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: like that that runs so counter to the interests of

109
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,599
Speaker 1: global capital that it's impossible to imagine I'm not responding

110
00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,640
Speaker 1: and and and in and in anywhere from a kind

111
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,760
Speaker 1: of minor tweakye to men like full on emergency panic

112
00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:39,000
Speaker 1: mode response, depending upon the situation and conditions. And so

113
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,920
Speaker 1: I basically say the idea of climate Leviathan is precisely

114
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,000
Speaker 1: that it's capital responding. Now, of course, we all, I

115
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,600
Speaker 1: think rightly know that that response will never be adequate

116
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,600
Speaker 1: to the problem, not even at a purely sort of

117
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,320
Speaker 1: survivalist level. But I still think that in the medium term,

118
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,720
Speaker 1: that's what we're going to see. And that's how I

119
00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,359
Speaker 1: usually introduced it. It's like, imagine capital response wanting to

120
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:06,919
Speaker 1: climate change because they'll have to. It'll look like Levia Yeah.

121
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,040
Speaker 1: And I think one of the yeah no, that that

122
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 1: makes sense. And one of the reasons I like that,

123
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,120
Speaker 1: and I like the way you Enjoel frame things is

124
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,960
Speaker 1: that I'm I've grown very tired of especially in the

125
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 1: you know, I have some prepping kind of interests and

126
00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 1: stuff like I I think that stuff is neat. But

127
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 1: I've always felt like the the obsession with collapse is

128
00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,680
Speaker 1: not just silly, it's um counter factual um because barring

129
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,000
Speaker 1: some sort of like the the ever present possibility of

130
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,600
Speaker 1: a nuclear conflict or something, I don't I don't see

131
00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,640
Speaker 1: collapse as a as a realistic consequence of climate change.

132
00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 1: Actually collapses. I see places collapsing, I see survivability and

133
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 1: chunks of the world collapse. And but I think you're

134
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 1: absolutely right. There's no way capital is going to allow

135
00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 1: everything to fall apart, because then they can't go them all,

136
00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, and we can't either, and that's

137
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,559
Speaker 1: they're desperate for us to keep doing that, right, So yeah,

138
00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:08,360
Speaker 1: I agree, total. Yeah, I'm wondering this climate Leviathan, Like,

139
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,559
Speaker 1: when you describe it, it doesn't sound great. It also

140
00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: sounds at least familiar. It sounds like the same way

141
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 1: I've see. It's like, that's part of why it's very believable,

142
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 1: is it sounds like the way the system currently deals

143
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 1: with every problem. Right, these these technocratic half competent UH

144
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,800
Speaker 1: focus group solutions that are generally too late and you know,

145
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,800
Speaker 1: only occasionally effective. Um. What scares me is UM and

146
00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 1: I forget the exaction, but like essentially the authoritary, the

147
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 1: more authoritarian version of this, you know, like and and

148
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,400
Speaker 1: the more authoritarian kind of coming from a We're not

149
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,280
Speaker 1: going to fix the problem. We're just going to protect

150
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,079
Speaker 1: whatever kind of identitarian chunk we we we we consider

151
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,600
Speaker 1: our base from it. Um, do you see that gaining

152
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,240
Speaker 1: strength right now? Like where do you where do you

153
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,800
Speaker 1: looking at kind of the the lay of the land

154
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,680
Speaker 1: at the moment? Where are you seeing that? Yeah, that's

155
00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 1: a really good, you know comment from my perspective. I

156
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,880
Speaker 1: agree with you. I think that stuff is serious, and

157
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,520
Speaker 1: I think, if I'm honest with you, it's a little

158
00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: bit of a missing bit in the book's argument in

159
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,720
Speaker 1: the sense that I don't think we took seriously enough

160
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 1: a version of behemoth that doesn't deny climate change but

161
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,680
Speaker 1: only gives a shit about its own internal territories or

162
00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,680
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, its own interests, so that

163
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,440
Speaker 1: it becomes a behemoth like fuck you to the rest

164
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,600
Speaker 1: of the world, but but at the same time takes

165
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,360
Speaker 1: climate very seriously. Uh. You know, I think some people

166
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 1: call it like eco fascism. I'm not so sure. You know,

167
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 1: I don't I that term. I don't think that covers

168
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,200
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm trying to say. But maybe I'm just

169
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,479
Speaker 1: don't understand it well enough. But I do think that

170
00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,760
Speaker 1: that the book Joel and I don't take that prospect

171
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,560
Speaker 1: seriously enough. And I think that is actually like that

172
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,960
Speaker 1: kind of Mike Davis sort of like you know, if

173
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,040
Speaker 1: you guys read that piece who Will Build the Arc?

174
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, it's it's fucking awesome. It's an amazing

175
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 1: piece of work. Um. It's from about two and ten,

176
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,559
Speaker 1: I think, in the New Left Review, and he writes

177
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,000
Speaker 1: basically about, you know, an elite kind of attempt to

178
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,679
Speaker 1: just sort of create islands of survivability or not more

179
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,960
Speaker 1: than survivability, islands of elite leisure in sense um, in

180
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,480
Speaker 1: a world that's falling apart around it. And I actually

181
00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 1: think that that's totally believable. Like I think that's more

182
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,920
Speaker 1: believable than we thought it was when we wrote the book. Yeah,

183
00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,280
Speaker 1: and I guess you know, the question of whether or

184
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,640
Speaker 1: not to call it climate fascism, I think that climate

185
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,920
Speaker 1: fascism is a separate thing from the possibility of climate authoritarianism,

186
00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,800
Speaker 1: because I think you have this possibility of like, all right,

187
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 1: we have a state or a group of states that

188
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 1: are going to produce very authoritarian measures in order to

189
00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: protect their people, and they're so called way of life

190
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,400
Speaker 1: as and I think you also have a chance of

191
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,800
Speaker 1: this possibility of kind of a more identarian sort of thing,

192
00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 1: like whether it's white nationalist or whatever. Um uh, I

193
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 1: kind of see and I see maybe them feeding into

194
00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 1: each other. I don't know, like it's it all gets

195
00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,640
Speaker 1: very muddled, and I think like one of the problems

196
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,240
Speaker 1: you have trying to prognosticate about the future is that

197
00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 1: there's always so many variables and you can anything, you

198
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,080
Speaker 1: any kind of permutation of any of these things that

199
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 1: you can dream up. You can see the seeds of

200
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,080
Speaker 1: them if you go out and find them. You can

201
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,120
Speaker 1: find the Christian dominionist chunk of this, like the eco

202
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,959
Speaker 1: fascist thing, and you can find a more socialist version,

203
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,760
Speaker 1: and you can find a more white nationalist version. And

204
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 1: it's just kind of anyone's guess as to what's going

205
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 1: to pick up steam. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yeah,

206
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,400
Speaker 1: I mean there's something those I think important about the

207
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 1: kind of thing that Joel and I are trying to

208
00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,160
Speaker 1: do in the book. And there's also something that is uh,

209
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:10,600
Speaker 1: perhaps inevitably arrogant about that effort, and that that arrogance

210
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 1: like well, I think both Joe and I would always

211
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 1: say that the book what for us at least was

212
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:21,040
Speaker 1: worth writing no matter what, It would be wrong too

213
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 1: to not to not acknowledge the arrogance of that analysis.

214
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,959
Speaker 1: That then allows you as as soon as you acknowledge arrogance,

215
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,120
Speaker 1: then you acknowledge a lot of the stuff you're talking about, right,

216
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 1: like the the fact that, yeah, I mean, there's a

217
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,920
Speaker 1: million things that ways that this could go, and some

218
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,480
Speaker 1: of them won't look like what we said they look

219
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 1: and we can't you know, we have to think hard. Well,

220
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,840
Speaker 1: that's what I find really intelligent about the way you

221
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,480
Speaker 1: set it up, because you're not saying, Okay, this political

222
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 1: party is going to evolve in these ways. You're trying

223
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,280
Speaker 1: to say that these are kind of the we can

224
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,520
Speaker 1: see from responses to other problems and from responses even

225
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,960
Speaker 1: to climate change. These are kind of the patterns things

226
00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 1: are going to break down in um And I guess

227
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,320
Speaker 1: before I I'll hand it over to Garrison in a

228
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 1: little bit. But um, kind of the last thing I

229
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,199
Speaker 1: wanted to really get into was the climate X, the

230
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 1: term you all use for kind of the the most

231
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,160
Speaker 1: optimistic scenario that I don't think any of us believes

232
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,520
Speaker 1: in as much as we'd like to at the moment. Yeah,

233
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,480
Speaker 1: that's exactly it. Yeah, Um, I'm one of the things

234
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 1: that we're trying to do here is envision how that

235
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:25,679
Speaker 1: might look. And the best thing that I can come

236
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,679
Speaker 1: up with is a mix of um, really durable, widespread

237
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,079
Speaker 1: mutual aid networks to support some sort of mass general

238
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,599
Speaker 1: strike in order to institute sweeping changes both to the

239
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,920
Speaker 1: nature of capitalism and to like the social system we

240
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,800
Speaker 1: have in order to reduce environmental harm and anyway that

241
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,400
Speaker 1: sort of thing like that's that's the only thing I

242
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 1: can imagine that I don't think you know, you're talking

243
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 1: about an effort more ambitious than landing a man on

244
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,240
Speaker 1: the moon. Um, but at least it's a set of

245
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 1: things that could achieve a goal as opposed to like,

246
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,240
Speaker 1: I don't think it's totally pious, guy, it's a possibility.

247
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what when you think about best case scenario,

248
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,400
Speaker 1: how if like everything breaks right, things could be resolved positively,

249
00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,160
Speaker 1: Like what are you envisioning? I'm wondering kind of like

250
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 1: what's your optimistic side say when you let it peek through? Yeah,

251
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: I mean I think I think it looks a lot

252
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 1: like what you're describing. I think that you know that

253
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,640
Speaker 1: they'll have to be and I do think there will be.

254
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,600
Speaker 1: The question is, of course whether it's too late, and

255
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 1: whether it's effective and all other stuff. But there will

256
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 1: have to be a kind of mass based to it,

257
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,880
Speaker 1: for sure. But what I don't believe, and I think

258
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,000
Speaker 1: you're hinting at this too, telp me if I'm misunderstanding.

259
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,400
Speaker 1: What I don't believe is that it will be a

260
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,880
Speaker 1: mass based thing from what we might think of as

261
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,880
Speaker 1: a single or monolithic movement. It's gonna it's because the

262
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,960
Speaker 1: ways that people manage what's coming our way are going

263
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 1: to have to be, for one thing, very locally specific.

264
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,080
Speaker 1: As we know, like like you said, like there's collapses,

265
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 1: there's you know, people are dealing with different challenges in

266
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,760
Speaker 1: their own places, um, and not just environmentally, but of

267
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,720
Speaker 1: course their own political histories and all our stuff. Um,

268
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,520
Speaker 1: I think it has to be like an articulation in

269
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,000
Speaker 1: these mass moments like you're describing, like a general strike

270
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 1: or whatever, of a whole variety of movements that are

271
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: actually organized primarily around meeting the needs of the people

272
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 1: where they live, mutual aid societies, other kinds of distributional

273
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, fixes, and this kind of chaotic breakdown like

274
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 1: you describe when things can much more important than coffee

275
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 1: are unavailable widely, those kinds of things. Um, let's not,

276
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,360
Speaker 1: let's not. Let's not downplay at the importance of coffee. No, no, no,

277
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,680
Speaker 1: I would never down for coffee, but for the moment. Yeah,

278
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 1: I get it, you know, like water, you know what

279
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:54,880
Speaker 1: I mean, or something. Um uh, Then I think you're right.

280
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be. It has to be climate

281
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 1: X has to be multiple in the sense that it

282
00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,800
Speaker 1: has to take many, many forms specific to the needs

283
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 1: of the folks that are there. But what I am

284
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,400
Speaker 1: convinced of which I wasn't always actually, is that the

285
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,640
Speaker 1: effectiveness of movements like that will have that they will

286
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 1: depend upon the extent to which they're democratic, not in

287
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 1: terms of actual long term effectiveness. Cannot be like local authoritarianisms.

288
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 1: We can't imagine. This is sort of like a series

289
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:30,240
Speaker 1: of climate change warlords. I don't think that is a

290
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,360
Speaker 1: a realistic solution, even from a purely like kind of

291
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 1: managing the climate change perspective. Yeah. No, I've known a

292
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,440
Speaker 1: couple of warlords, and none of them are good at

293
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 1: long term planning. Yes, I've never known a warlord, but

294
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 1: I can imagine you are, right, Garrison, you want to

295
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 1: take it over for a bit. Yeah. So yeah, I

296
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 1: mean I started doing just in general kind of climate

297
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,400
Speaker 1: research like about half a year ago, like getting like

298
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,199
Speaker 1: relatively deep into it, and one of your books was

299
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 1: one of the things that kept coming up as recommended

300
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,000
Speaker 1: reading on the topic. UM, and yeah, I found it

301
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,639
Speaker 1: super super interesting. There's a lot of a lot of

302
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,240
Speaker 1: stuff focuses on, like a lot of stuff on the

303
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:25,159
Speaker 1: topic focuses on like potential physical effects happening to like, um,

304
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 1: geography and to like environments, but not there's not as

305
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,160
Speaker 1: much on like the political side of things and how

306
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,800
Speaker 1: that's going to break down like societally in terms of

307
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,399
Speaker 1: you know, freedom and liberty and sovereignty over specific you

308
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,440
Speaker 1: know states or you know free states. Um. So that yeah,

309
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 1: that's what really drew me into your book specifically was

310
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 1: the kind of special focus on that side of things, UM,

311
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 1: and the the other the other part that got me

312
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,320
Speaker 1: pretty early on is the mitigation versus adaption side of things,

313
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:05,120
Speaker 1: and how to my understanding, we're kind of like crossing

314
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,520
Speaker 1: into the place where mitigation is becoming more and more

315
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:16,919
Speaker 1: difficult and adaptation is both necessary but also unlike unfortunately necessary,

316
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of ways that that can be

317
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,719
Speaker 1: used by authoritarian states to make things harder to have

318
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 1: change happened in the future. UM, would you like speak

319
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,440
Speaker 1: on what types of mitigation, what type of some mitigation

320
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,400
Speaker 1: efforts might we still have, and how and how adaption

321
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: is both going to be necessary and how there's going

322
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 1: to be like a dark side to some of those adaptions.

323
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,320
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I would agree with your read there, Like

324
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 1: I think we're at the point now where it's fair

325
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,359
Speaker 1: to say that if you ask the climate scientist, I

326
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,199
Speaker 1: could be wrong, but I know a few climate scientists

327
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: and I do quiz them on stuff like this sometimes, UM,

328
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 1: that we're at the point where mitigation efforts right now

329
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 1: are actually purely adaptive. Like we we are past many

330
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,320
Speaker 1: thresholds where somehow we could imagine it's like escaping this problem,

331
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like evading it, getting out

332
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 1: the side door or something like that. So even our

333
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 1: mitigation efforts right now are actually adaptive in that sense,

334
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 1: an adaptation and I think has become in many ways,

335
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 1: the the holy grail of modern political economy. Like, you

336
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,919
Speaker 1: know what I mean, how do we have our luxurious

337
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 1: Western lifestyles and consumption patterns and all this in the

338
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,280
Speaker 1: middle of out collapsing ecosystems? Like how do we how

339
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,800
Speaker 1: do we manage that? You know what I mean? It's

340
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 1: almost like I think at some point in the book

341
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 1: we say, and Joel and I have certainly said it

342
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 1: a lot since you know, adaptation has become the progress

343
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 1: of our time. Like if in the twentieth century we

344
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 1: talked about all progress progress, that's where capitalism and liberalism deliver.

345
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 1: Now we're like, all the best they can deliver is

346
00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 1: adaptation to a fucking crazy set of you know, conditions. Um,

347
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 1: And so I guess I would say that from a

348
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 1: mitigation perspective, for sure, we still have the capacity to

349
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,119
Speaker 1: to you know, considerably cut emissions if we you know,

350
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: I mean, we have the sort of pie in the sky,

351
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 1: but but hopeful things like you know that the elimination

352
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: of the fossil fuel industry, that would do a lot,

353
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: but we would still be in kind of short term,

354
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,200
Speaker 1: I mean, in medium terms sort of fucked like um,

355
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 1: and that's a big deal. Um So I do think

356
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,719
Speaker 1: that the mitigation efforts. I would never want to say, oh,

357
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 1: it don't bother like some sort of accelerationist horseshit, because

358
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: of course that will matter. But I do think that, um,

359
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,679
Speaker 1: that adaptation has become in some sense like the mode

360
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 1: through which we evaluate anything from like political proposals to

361
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: two you know, technical fixes, Like it's at least amongst

362
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: people who are willing to admit there's a problem. I

363
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 1: guess there's a you know, a whole world of people

364
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 1: who somehow still don't. Yeah that that that people is

365
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: always larger than what I you know, after like spending

366
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: like months reading you know, so many climate books, I'm

367
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 1: like still struck at like how basically the majority of

368
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 1: people in America don't think it's a big problem. And

369
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 1: that's like, yeah, that's ire we're real script that from yeah,

370
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: it's not it's not. I mean, you know, uh, I

371
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 1: think about like fascism the last time it came around

372
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: and how what a common attitude that was towards fascism

373
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 1: sweeping Europe And we eventually got on the same page

374
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: about that, and only like a hundred million people died.

375
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, I know, but I guess I'm gonna say

376
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 1: there there is like there. I think they're really strong.

377
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: I magical, if that's the right word. Reasons for the

378
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: persistence not of like not of denial is m you know,

379
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: in this kind of like stupid stereotypical way, like you know,

380
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: it's a Chinese hoax and all that stuff. I don't

381
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: mean that. I mean more like this kind of you know,

382
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 1: sometimes people call it the new denialism, where you acknowledge

383
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: it as a problem, but then you don't do anything

384
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: about it. Like this is what we have in Canada.

385
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: We have a national government that that talks all the

386
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 1: time and then subsidizes every oil industry that you can

387
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: get its hands on, you know, a sort of like yeah, yeah,

388
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 1: it's a problem, and we're doing everything we can. Here's

389
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: our new l en Gen pipeline or whatever, um that

390
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: kind of thing. I think that the dominant way of

391
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: talking about the problem still contains a lot of like

392
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 1: weird uncertainty. You know that people say things like, um,

393
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: you know there's a chance that we're heading towards water scarcity.

394
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 1: It's like no, no, no scientist thinks there's a chance.

395
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 1: Everybody knows it's the case, but we frame it as

396
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: if it's still this big tig uncertainty in the future.

397
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,719
Speaker 1: And I think that allows people to feel, like what

398
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: Garrison saying, a kind of like it gives a room

399
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: for not doubt, but like distance or something. I don't

400
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,080
Speaker 1: know what to describe it as. Um, yeah, I think distance,

401
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,479
Speaker 1: because that's all that's that's that's so deep, particularly in

402
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: the American and I guess the Canadian psyche, right, like

403
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: even just going back to like the wars of the

404
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 1: last century, this idea that like, well, we're we're separated

405
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: from it, We're far enough away from it. And I

406
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: think there was even an idea among people who accepted

407
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 1: the reality of climate change in Canada specifically that like, well,

408
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: it's just gonna make this place a better growing climate

409
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: or whatever, Like it's not gonna it's not going to

410
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 1: lead to tornado, Like it's not going to lead to

411
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 1: like massive storm fronts of lightning built by giant fire

412
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: waves destroying entire cities, Like that's not gonna happen, and

413
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: I yeah, yeah, the other Yeah. One interesting thing, This

414
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: is just something I've been writing about lately, like not

415
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: just for myself. I haven't published it or anything, but

416
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: but one of the one of the things I've been

417
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: trying to study a lot is the climate economic modeling,

418
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: you know, like the stuff that the governments supposedly leans

419
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: on to like make its plans or determine its tax

420
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,239
Speaker 1: rates for carbon and this kind of stuff, you know.

421
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: And one of the crazy things about those models, as

422
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: I've dug into them, both at the technical level, like

423
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: right down to the mathematical you know, choice is made,

424
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: but also how they conceive of them is that all

425
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: those models are built h and therefore, you know, most

426
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: of the policy expertise that's based on them is also

427
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: built on this idea that everything political will stay the same,

428
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: everything political economic will stay the same, things will just

429
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: get hotter. So like they are a model of stable

430
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: capitalism in a warmer world. Do you know, does that

431
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 1: make any sense? No, Yeah, it's this idea that well,

432
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: it's it's this acceptance that like it's going to get hotter. Um,

433
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: But this ignorant, ignorant the fact that like, and that's

434
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: going to increase the number of refugees, and that's going

435
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: to provide fuel for the radical right, and that's going

436
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: to lead to more exterminationists to talk in like mainstream

437
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: politics and like, yeah, it's yes, I get what you're saying.

438
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: And what worries me is that that is absolutely like

439
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: you can walk really far out on that limb and

440
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: then it just cracks and and then you know, the

441
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: whole fun and show is no longer temple. And that's

442
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: I think, you know, those moments like you're describing, there'll

443
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: be placed specific I suppose, yes, but it's that's the

444
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: ship that scares me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it didn't make

445
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: sense to the normal person in the street a couple

446
00:25:52,800 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: of weeks ago. It starts to make sense. Yeah, yeah,

447
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: that's that. Yeah, I think, and I think a lot

448
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: of a lot of people there is definitely like the

449
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: everything will stay mostly the same syndrome along among a

450
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 1: lot of the population, whether you know they fall the

451
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 1: conservative or liberal side. I think there's there's a lot

452
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: there's a lot of acts that that's a whole lot

453
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: easier and in terms of like even for like you know,

454
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 1: people who are more radical, um even you know who

455
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: are like on like more on like the left. Um.

456
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: You know, there is like this you know perception that

457
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: capital is just going is it's gonna stay very similar

458
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: to how we see it now. And I think a

459
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: lot of people underestimate the adaptive capabilities. And I think

460
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: one of the useful things about the plagues last year

461
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: is that we've seen capital like transform it like transform

462
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: itself in very large ways in terms of like retail

463
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: industry supply lines very quickly. Um. So we've both seen

464
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: that kind of you know, you know, large scale transformation

465
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: on on like on a global scale. And we've also

466
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: seen the other thing you talked about creating like islands

467
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: of luxury right of like people who are um, you know,

468
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: higher class, but also some people who are like middle

469
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: class being able to basically create isolated pockets where they

470
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: can live in a life that's pretty similar to what

471
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: they already had. Where everyone else has to live and

472
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: ship like they get they they get everyone else has

473
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: so much worse, whereas a middle class class get to

474
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: stay kind of like in this in this small bubble um.

475
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: And I think that is definitely I think it's really

476
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: useful to look at how that happened in the play,

477
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, early on with people like you know, where

478
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: people like flying to New Zealand to live in there

479
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: like cabins um and being like yeah, that's gonna happen. Um.

480
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: And now with you know, Amazon Man going to space,

481
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: it's like the same thing, right, there's gonna be there's

482
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: gonna see more and more extreme versions of this. Um hm. Yeah.

483
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: I don't know any thoughts on that that type of

484
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: thing in terms of you know, how we can look

485
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: at like past past, smaller you know, collapses or crumblings

486
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: of you know, of societal norms get really showing how

487
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: capital is going to adapt and how quickly it can

488
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: adapt in some cases. M I don't know if I

489
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: have any specific thoughts, but I you know, I am

490
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: with you on all of that analysis. I feel like, well,

491
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: for one thing, I think you're very very right to

492
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: emphasize the kind of robustness the capital keeps demonstrating, like

493
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: like we can knock it all at once. It's a yeah, exactly,

494
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: that's exactly I'm just about to say exactly, And it's

495
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: tougher than virtually every other political economic arrangement you know

496
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: that came before it, at least in the recent centuries,

497
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: like it, it does adapt in this remarkable way or

498
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, shapeshift. Um. But I also think,

499
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: like you know, just in terms of the kinds of

500
00:28:53,520 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: dynamics you're describing. Yeah, the the inequality that persists today,

501
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: not only like in its purely economic form, in the

502
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: sense that you know, there's a few very rich, very

503
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: powerful people, um, and then the vast majority of the

504
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: planet you know, um, isn't quite far behind, to put

505
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 1: it lightly, um, But that but that we're also like

506
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: it's almost like a total disaster that ideologically this problem

507
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: emerges precisely at the moment, it seems to me when

508
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: inequality is is so widely understood to be just normal

509
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: or natural, so that the reaction to almost any crisis

510
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: is that, you know, the rich will be fine and

511
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,479
Speaker 1: and whether like people like me might say that sucks

512
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: and that's shitty, but for the most part, it's wide

513
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: they accepted as just the way the world works, right now,

514
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like, like, there's never been

515
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: a better argument for a wealth tax than there is

516
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: right now. I can't think of one maybe the robber

517
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: barons in the States or whatever, you know, in the

518
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,239
Speaker 1: late nineteenth early twentieth century. But it's it's like, at

519
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: least to me, it seems to be just here in

520
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: Canada at least it's a total joke, Like we talked

521
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: about it, but it's nowhere near happening. There's a sort

522
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: of strange like you know, I think Naomi Client has

523
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: written about this, like the kind of like poor timing

524
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: of the fact that the climate crisis happened precisely when

525
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: you know that democracy and social democratic forces are at

526
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: their weakest, or at least not weakest, but you know,

527
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: not in a good spot. Yeah, I mean, and uh,

528
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't know. It was always tempting earlier to talk

529
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: about Syria and kind of have climate change contributed to

530
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: that and how that contributed to rising authoritarians And there's

531
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: actually been some new analysis on that that kind of

532
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: has made me less confident in climate change as a

533
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: driver of that conflict. Um I am, I guess, But

534
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: but what what what I do and why I do

535
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: still talk about that when I talk about like how

536
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: all this is going to work? Is kind of one

537
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: of the things that's most important to understand is that,

538
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: like the problem is not just climate change, right, like

539
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: you said, it's not just that it's getting warmer, and

540
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,479
Speaker 1: it's not even just that climate change is causing these problems.

541
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: Is that we have these pre existing problems. We have

542
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: all these these issues we didn't deal with for years

543
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: and years. Um. It's like an old house and you

544
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: didn't do the repair work necessary, and then you know

545
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,479
Speaker 1: there's there's extreme weather and the weather does It's not

546
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: just the weather that causes the problems, it's you've got

547
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: all these all these issues that cascade. UM. One of

548
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: the terms I think we're using a lot because we're

549
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: trying to get people away from the from the discussion

550
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: of collapse, which I don't think is productive. UM. A

551
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: friend of both Garrisonizes, is an e R nurse who

552
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: has been kind of working through COVID and was talking

553
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: about the fact that like, um, you know, prior to COVID,

554
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: we had a shortage of healthcare workers. It was exacerbated

555
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: by COVID, more people quit, it was exacerbated by all

556
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: of these different sort of like issues structurally within Portland itself,

557
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: in the way the city is set up, and now

558
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: you've got um, all these different medical systems kind of

559
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: like falling apart at the point when they're most necessary.

560
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: And the term that he uses is the crumbles um,

561
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: which I like a lot. Just this this thing, it's

562
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: not ever going to just fall apart, but pieces of

563
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: it are breaking off at all times, and it's it's

564
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: this um. I think that I I think it's an

565
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: easier way to get people because like there's you know,

566
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: we're having an in Portland right now. We had this

567
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: fucking heatwave hit. At the same time, we got a

568
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: notice that because of supply line issues, um Oregon was

569
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: out of chlor I think it was chlorine in order

570
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: to like uh pure for the for the water filtration systems.

571
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: And they were like, it'll be fine this time, We're

572
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: gonna we have like enough stored up to to deal

573
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: with like the shortage of equipment. But it's like, okay,

574
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: but what about next time? And the same thing. Because

575
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: of COVID jet fuel, like to save money, companies fired

576
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: all of their drivers, so there's not enough jet fuel

577
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: or was not enough jet fuel, which was fine during COVID,

578
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: but then these fires hit and they're having to ground

579
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: firefighting planes because there's just no jet fuel, and what

580
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: there is is being requisitioned to keep flames planes going

581
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: to and fro, and so you can't adequately fight the fire.

582
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: It's these wow, yeah, all these these seemingly little things

583
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: that become big things when you this. Uh it's like

584
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: climate changes like steroids to all these little problems too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,

585
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Then and they

586
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: sort of tend a cascade way that we didn't we

587
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: didn't predict. Yeah. Yeah, it's chaos theory stuff, right, It's

588
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: like we're we're all we're we're tipping over the edge

589
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: of chaos right now, past the point where it makes

590
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: things more adaptable, and towards the point where it all

591
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: just kind of spirals out of control. Yeah, it's hard

592
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: to imagine talking about something like equilibrium right now. It's

593
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: just Yeah, but since virtually all of our science is

594
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: built on the model of equilibrium that causes trouble, should

595
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: you speak to that a little bit more? Because I'm

596
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: I am not a scientist, and I'm fairly certain Garrison

597
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: doesn't either, so that I hadn't really thought of things

598
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: in those terms. Yeah, I mean, I only think of

599
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: it in those terms because you know, I'm training in economics,

600
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: and that's the framing. But in general, like most of

601
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: the complex models not so that's not so true of

602
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: the climate science models necessarily behind any means, but most

603
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 1: of the ways that we model, like the behavior of

604
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: an ecosystem or the behavior of an economy, assumes that

605
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: there's a sort of tendency toward normally normalizing, you know

606
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like that over time, a series of

607
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: processes kind of build up a tendency toward a particular direction.

608
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: So like that, you know, in in economics that the

609
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: economy is understood to be kind of self correcting, not

610
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: even kind of self correcting. So like if something they

611
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: call it a shock, If something happens in the in

612
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 1: the in the in the economic system that's unexpected, then

613
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 1: of course the whole system kind of shakes a bit.

614
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: But then the assumption is that the overall momentum and

615
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: dynamics of the system will bring things back to normal.

616
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: Does that make sense, Yeah, And that's exactly how we

617
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: model ecosystem behavior. Like cut a hole in the middle

618
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: of a forest, the assumption is that for a second,

619
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: for a second on forest time, this force is like,

620
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: holy fun, there's all this sunlight and there's weird animals

621
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: in a here that weren't here before, but over time,

622
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: the forests sort of pattern of operation will bring it

623
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: back to normal. This is why like clear cutting is

624
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be okay, because eventually the ecosystem will recover um.

625
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: And most of our sciences are built on this kind

626
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: of equilibrium oriented model, kind of normalizing of the larger

627
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: processes of the system that just had their own momentum.

628
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: And there's only a few, like ecological sciences that break

629
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 1: that pattern. And there are things like people who study

630
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: deserts which are like, oh, they don't really have a middle,

631
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't It doesn't help to talk about a

632
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: desert's average temperature because the desert never is that temperature,

633
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, It's just in the middle

634
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: of extremes um and uh. And I think that at

635
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: least from a sort of like scientific tech perspective, technological

636
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: fixed perspective for climate change, one of the biggest problems

637
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: is the fact that most of our kind of science

638
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: and knowledge can't deal with dissequilibrium systems, like ones that

639
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 1: actually we don't know where they're going and we don't

640
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: know where they'll end and we don't have the tools,

641
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: like literally the mathematical tools to manage them, so we

642
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: can't model them, and then we don't know what then

643
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: to do. One of the things I've been reading in

644
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: preparation with this that's been useful from a uh an

645
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: intellectual framework is this. It was written in two thou

646
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: and twelve. It's called the Gonzo Futurist Manifesto, and it's

647
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: a guy kind of laying out as someone looking into

648
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: this and told them be like, well, it looks like

649
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: everything's in this process of like either free fall or

650
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: massive change, and we're like, I don't think a lot

651
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: of people caught up to. And the frame that the

652
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: framework day uses post normal um is like the acceptance

653
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: that you're in a post normal era, which I think

654
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: is what you're getting at. There's the equilibrium isn't going

655
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 1: to come back right, like we're we and we're you're

656
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: you're starting from a flawed position when you're even thinking

657
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: of considering that as a possibility, um, the shift has

658
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: been too fundamental. It's the same thing politically with assuming

659
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: like anything could work the same way after Trump, Like no,

660
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: we're in post normal times where it's never going back. Yeah. Yeah,

661
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: and that's why I think sometimes it's you know, it

662
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: can be quite problematic to talk to progressives of a

663
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: different generation, like say my parents, who weren't by any

664
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: means lefties, but they were like old school Canadian social democrats,

665
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: you know, big welfares ate that kind of stuff. Is

666
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: that the assumption is that that's what we need right now,

667
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: Like that's we just need to get that back and

668
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: everything will be cool. Like that's that's my dad's analysis

669
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: of the problem. Yeah, and I can see the temptation, sure,

670
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: but it's totally not true. Yeah, I mean, the temptation

671
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: is profound because like, yeah, I mean it if things

672
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: were if you have this feeling that things were good,

673
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: whether or not it's right or wrong, you're naturally gonna

674
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: want to return to that, which, you know, is what

675
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: what's going to be the fuel for the authoritarian version

676
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: of this, but it's also going to be the fuel

677
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: for climate Leviathan, you know, like in any case, like

678
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: it's easier. The scary thing about trying to bring climate

679
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: X into being right is that it's by far the

680
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: best possible kind of solution you have, but it requires

681
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: saying fundamentally we're the way we all live is going

682
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: to have to change our attitudes towards democracy, are going

683
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: to have to change our attitudes towards what a society is.

684
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: You're going to have to shift in the fundamental level. Well,

685
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: everyone else is saying, here's how we bring back what

686
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 1: you used to have here, so we get the coffee

687
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: back in the stores, you know, Like, yeah, yeah, that's

688
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: kind of been the problem with a lot of left

689
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 1: leaning projects is that it is a newer thing, and

690
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: that's why none of them have really lasted very long

691
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: or they've you know, gone horribly wrong very quickly. Yeah,

692
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: especially if we're gonna try to do any Climate X

693
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: is more like a stateless world, or at least a

694
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: stateless area. That introduces a whole, a whole new problem

695
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: that we haven't really seen on a mass scale, you know,

696
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: outside of like Rojava or something. Um, it's gonna be

697
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: a whole new, a whole new problem to deal with,

698
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: and a whole lot of people are going to be

699
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,439
Speaker 1: scared of that. Agreed, And I mean I think it's

700
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: you know, like, no, I'm stating you obvious, So I

701
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: apologize for this, But part of me thinks, you know,

702
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,240
Speaker 1: I kind of need to say it to remind myself.

703
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: But you know, for for good or ill. I mean,

704
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: I guess it's for ill. A lot of people, like

705
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: even though they know that how they live now is untenable,

706
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, in the larger frame, it's also how they

707
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: live now. Like like like a lot of us, myself included,

708
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: are invested in the way things work now, do you

709
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like like the prospect of that

710
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: radical change that that is a hard sell when you know,

711
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: like this is what put food on the table, this

712
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: is how my kids go to school, Like these are

713
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, this is like that big leap that we

714
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: will have to demand of ourselves and others at some

715
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: point in the near future. Probably is also like justifiably

716
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: terrifying to lots of people. Yeah, and it's I mean

717
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: the big yeah. And it's always easier, it's always it's

718
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: a lot less frightening to tell people. I can make

719
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: it like it was yeah, which but it was you know, yeah,

720
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: and maybe it was awesome for some of them, you know, um,

721
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: for my dada, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find it interesting

722
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: that you bring up deserts in that framework of like

723
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: of like equilibrium in terms of like, you know, they're

724
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: being a normal and desert is not as one of

725
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: the things that isn't it's always fluctuating between different temperates

726
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: um and you know, and and I think there was

727
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: there was a popular anarchists book I think also written

728
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 1: in two thousand and twelve, um just called Desert about

729
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: climate change and how basically it's it's it's it's it's

730
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not about like how the whole world

731
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: we're literally turned into a desert. It's about like how

732
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: the desert model in terms of like they're never being

733
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: a normal again. It's gonna fluctuating between extremes. It's going

734
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: to happen in a lot of places, like like everything

735
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: is gonna get turned into their own version of deserts. Yeah.

736
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: The title is based off the idea of that old

737
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: quote that like empires make a desert and call it

738
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: peace right, and it's kind of seeing global capital as

739
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: the Yeah, it's called desert. Yeah. Online, it's like a

740
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: little bit of a manifesto. But yeah, but yeah, like

741
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: in terms of like we're never gonna even even as

742
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: the crumbles start happening, we're not We're never gonna rereach

743
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: a place of stability. It's always going to be in flux.

744
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: We're never going to get to that normal again. We

745
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: may have coffee for a year, we may have insulin

746
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: you know, being produced locally, but it's going to be

747
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: it's not that we're not going to have the same

748
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: false stability that we have now, right, Like we have

749
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: an idea of stability now now it's not true, you know,

750
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: because Taco Bell doesn't have ground beef anymore. Um right,

751
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: but like, actually real, are you guys saying yeah, yeah, yeah,

752
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: there's I mean there's shortages Taco Bells, like not able

753
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: to serve a lot of stuff. They're having shortages of things.

754
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: You don't really have Taco Bell here in can You're

755
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:08,879
Speaker 1: not missing. I was, Oh, but you guys have tim

756
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: Horton's so no one's hands are clean. No, no, no,

757
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: it's true. Yeah. I didn't didn't mean. I didn't need

758
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: to absolve my strow responsibility. I just ate some Tim

759
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: Horton's cereal this morning. My my mother, who lives in

760
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: Canada sent me some. Um so that's what I ate

761
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: for breakfast. So yeah, did you used to live in Canada?

762
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: I did, Yeah, I'm Canadian Oh yeah, he's Canadian as hell. Yeah.

763
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: I moved to Portland with my family. Then most most

764
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 1: of my families moved back to Canada, which is probably

765
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: the smart move. Um. But I mean, as we see,

766
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: you know, both both these countries right now have like

767
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: liberals in charge quote quote right now, and it's not no.

768
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: You know, both Trudeau and Biden have a lot of

769
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: the same problems despite their generational gap, and they have

770
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: kind of the same effect in terms of what they

771
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: say versus what they do. You know, both of them.

772
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: You know, Biden talked about banning fracking in his campaign,

773
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: and everyone who is further to the left of Biden

774
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: new like, no, you're just lying. I like this, come on,

775
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: like come on. And you know Trudeau made a lot

776
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: of promises about pipelines and how that's not that's not

777
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: working out, um. And I think one of the things

778
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: that we haven't talked about yet is the symbiotic relationship

779
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: between the state and like tech companies and oil companies, um,

780
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: and how that will be alert how that I see

781
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: that being a large part of Levivan is basically the

782
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: government subsidizing or the government letting tech companies try to

783
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: fix the problem therefore increasing our reliance on capital and

784
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: those companies to maintain kind of you know, you know

785
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: in terms of like gew in terms of like gew

786
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: and engineering or carbon capture. Right if if the government

787
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: is gonna is gonna help help those companies do those things,

788
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: as soon as those companies go away, we get so

789
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: much more carbon released immediately. And it's kind of like

790
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: this like self preservation that I think capital is going

791
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: to try to do. Um. I know you you you

792
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: brought up stuff similar to this in terms of like

793
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: climate levies. That's like, yeah, do you do you have

794
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: like what what? What do you see? Now? That's kind

795
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: of frightening in terms of you know, tech getting its

796
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: hands on not just like government influence, but like you know,

797
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: trying to make itself a necessary part of our world

798
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: in terms of in term terms of climates. I mean,

799
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: the text is necessary for a lot of ways right now,

800
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: but specifically in terms of climate. How do you kind

801
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: of see that happening? Yeah? Now, I think that's a

802
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: really good point. And I'm not sure I put enough

803
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: thought into it to be honest with you, but I

804
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: do think you're right there. It's it's it's obvious, it

805
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: seems to me right now that that tech or you know,

806
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: green whatever they're calling themselves this kind of stuff. The goal,

807
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: and I think it's actually like quite explicit, is to

808
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: make itself essential to how we deal with the problem,

809
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: which which means that of course, like I think you

810
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: just said, the first thing that that requires is that

811
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 1: we write off a whole bunch of ways of dealing

812
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: with the problem so that we can prioritize this way

813
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: of doing things. And then and then once that, once

814
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: that becomes the way of managing things like carbon capture

815
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 1: or you know, something like that, that requires, as you say,

816
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: you know, once you once you start, it's like an addiction,

817
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 1: like you can't you can't stop it, or you're fucked. Um.

818
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: If we've written the other options off the table or

819
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: they just become untenable at some point, then then yeah,

820
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,720
Speaker 1: I mean, the way that that tech will be crucial

821
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,399
Speaker 1: to this um is absolutely their plan. I would say,

822
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, like and I would say probably it's it's

823
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: already under discussion in big you know, serious ways that

824
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: big companies like Google and all the rest of it.

825
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: But the other thing I would say, on this same front,

826
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: and I think you just mentioned it too, is this

827
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: idea of you know, what will happen with geo engineering,

828
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 1: which I think it in terms of what I find

829
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 1: scary that I find a bit scary, and not just

830
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: of course, you know, the sort of experimenting with the

831
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: planetary system, which you know is pretty terrifying, but but

832
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: the political implications of of the power associated with being

833
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: able to manipulate the planet purely in the interests of

834
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: maintaining capital's power, you know, like we're really like, we're

835
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 1: really talking about we are willing to dicker with the

836
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: entire planet rather than change the way that we live.

837
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: Like that's that's that astounding. The scariest part of your

838
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 1: book for me was when you started talking about that

839
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 1: and space weaponry um, and that I was thinking about

840
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: this a lot yesterday with Bess going up in his

841
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,959
Speaker 1: penis rocket um. And I think I even talked about

842
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: it on on another show. Is yeah, is the intersection

843
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: between the militarization of the atmosphere with the UH then

844
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 1: with like the control of the atmosphere right like basically

845
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: like making the atmosphere a thing that we're like, I

846
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: think colonizes the wrong word. I think that that's kind

847
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: of inappropriate for actual clon colonization. But it's it's kind

848
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: of similar, Like it's like it's the it's another frontier

849
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: that we wanted to conquer. It's the next one is

850
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: gonna be the atmosphere itself in terms of like weapons

851
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: as you talked about in the book, and then geo engineering,

852
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: and then with you know Bezos talking about moving all

853
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: of the polluting stuff into space, you know, it's the

854
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 1: same thing. Um yeah, I'd like so, yeah, I was

855
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: watching that happened yesterday, and you know, your your book

856
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: was written a few years ago, and it's like it's

857
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,359
Speaker 1: the same thing. You're like, that's and before I read

858
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: your book, that's not that's not. I never thought about

859
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: the space thing specifically, And now with Basis talking about that,

860
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: that's like wow, they're just going all for it, Like

861
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: they're just yeah, they're just like it's like what what what?

862
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: What what made you guys think of that possibility? Like

863
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: what was the thing you saw there? Was like, hey,

864
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: this is how we kind of see this trend going

865
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 1: that will result in this kind of colonization of the

866
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: atmosphere in space, And well, well what did you see

867
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: that kind of got you there? Well, like, if I'm

868
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: honest with you, ah, that was really Joel's brainchild, like

869
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: that that part of the book about SRM solar Radiation

870
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: management and the space weaponry and that kind of stuff.

871
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: That was something that was a connection that he made

872
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: and he pursued, uh, most rigorously, and he actually wrote

873
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: that part of the book because as you can imagine,

874
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: to split it up, you know what I mean. Um.

875
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: And so I wouldn't want I mean, for me what

876
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: who made that connection was Joel, So I wouldn't want

877
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 1: to I wouldn't want to speak for him. I think

878
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: he he's he's in conversation both professionally and also just

879
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: like interest wise with a whole range of of international

880
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: relations scholars who inside the university are considered kind of wacky,

881
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: like people who take like space weapons seriously, like they're

882
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: sort of like peripheral, you know what I mean. And

883
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: Joel has been in conversation with him for a very

884
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: long time, so that he knew all that literature like

885
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: already before we even started. And I've never even heard

886
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: of it, um. But I do think the connection is

887
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 1: really compelling, and I know he's pursued it since I

888
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: hope you guys get a chance to chat with him.

889
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: He's a fucking brilliant I love to you're you're just

890
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: the easier person to contact. Yeah, yeah, you know, he's

891
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: and he loves to chat chat and he's infinitely more

892
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: articulate than me. Like you'll you'll you'll get way more

893
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: out of him than you ever have from me. Um,

894
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: he's a brilliant guy. Uh, but he's he's a that's

895
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: a connection that he made and I wouldn't want to

896
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: speak for how he got there. Sure, like you're more interested,

897
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: Like correct me if I'm wrong, But it's more you

898
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: you have like a lot of more studying in like

899
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 1: the economics side of things. Um, do do you see

900
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: because like the other the other kind of out of

901
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: this you know, ties in the space separy is just

902
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: the U. S Military itself. Um do you see them

903
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: interacting with the economy and in collapse like in like

904
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: crumble scenarios. How how do you see the military being

905
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: used by the state to kind of not solve issues

906
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: but like you know, mitigate some of them or adapt

907
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: to some of those. Yeah. I mean again, I don't

908
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: want to say I know any better than anyone else,

909
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: but I do think, I mean, the U. S Military

910
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: in particular has a couple of advantages you want to

911
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: call it that in terms of the role that they

912
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: might play as you know, certain kinds of crumbling become

913
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 1: essential for the state to deal with them. The first

914
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: is that it's been taking climate change seriously for decades

915
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, no mencing words in any of those reports, exactly,

916
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: very blunt and very accurate. Yeah. And they even they

917
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: know for a long time, they know the international security risks.

918
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: They you know, they have they have plans, they're you know,

919
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: they're trying to design weapons that don't require fossil fuels

920
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: like they are. They take the problem seriously, so they're

921
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: ahead in that sense. And also, I do think that

922
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 1: the kind of sort of localized for lack of a

923
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: better term, of regionalized crumbling that you guys are just

924
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: discussing will make the militarization of certain parts of the economy,

925
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: probably especially supply lines um and certain production processes, maybe

926
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: even if something as central as agriculture um, well, the

927
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 1: militarization and the securitization of those aspects of the modern

928
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: economy are going to become more and more essential, and

929
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, at least in North America,

930
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: the principle instrument of that securitization will be the military.

931
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: And I think the other interesting things in terms of

932
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: like the plague is like that's the one thing we

933
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: all saw the military do is be crucial in the

934
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: vaccine distribution effort. Um. So I think, you know, really

935
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: the past year has been for interesting glimpse into how

936
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: we're gonna use our capital and military power when stuff

937
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: gets more and more unstable. Um. It seems like in

938
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: the States that's how the state, the state knows how

939
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: to step in is via the military or via the police.

940
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? Because there isn't like

941
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,439
Speaker 1: as you know here in Canada. I mean, we've got

942
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: lots of things that are problematic, but one of the

943
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: things we didn't need for the distribution of the vaccine

944
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: was anything more than our public health care system, which

945
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 1: was extant and worked perfectly fine, you know what I mean,

946
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: Like we didn't have to build up any new infrastructure,

947
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: and like that, we just had to say, oh, you

948
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 1: people who are already doing this do this too. Yeah.

949
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: And the lack of the lack of civil infrastructure in

950
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: the States makes US more both need to rely on

951
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: the military, and it makes Americans imaginations so small that

952
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 1: the only way they can envision that is your military

953
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: force or is through policing because the only civil infrastructure

954
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: we fund is policing in the military. Well in the

955
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 1: military is also the only thing Americans overwhelmingly trust, Like

956
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: there's no other like you look at polling, like there's

957
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 1: no other branch of the government that is widely trusted

958
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: by US citizens other than the military. And it's I mean,

959
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: it's because of the most successful propaganda campaign of all time, um,

960
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: their partnership with Hollywood, but it is it is a reality,

961
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: Like huh, yeah, that's a really interesting point. We'll probably

962
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: want to rap up with. The one other thing I

963
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,479
Speaker 1: want to mention is like the hardest part of looking

964
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 1: at Levithan for me is the is how incapable the

965
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 1: UN is um in terms of like like how bad

966
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: they are at doing their job. So what do you

967
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: think would need to change um for something like the

968
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 1: UN And maybe maybe not then specifically, but like you know,

969
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: if we're going to have like a transnational cooperation of

970
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 1: the state and capital to try to to try to

971
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: to try to you know, alleviate some of the worst

972
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 1: spect of climate change. What would need to happen for

973
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: to make that more realistic because the u N is

974
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: not it, at least not right now. Um yeah, yeah,

975
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have a good answer to

976
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: that question, to be honest with you, you know, partly

977
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,359
Speaker 1: because it's such a good question. Um. I think the

978
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: U N and the u n F Triple C you know,

979
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: have have proven like like I mean, I don't think

980
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 1: it's too much to say that, you know that the

981
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: international negotiations that have gone on around this, you know, Copenhagen, Paris,

982
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: can COOUM whatever, Dada da da have literally got us nowhere,

983
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: like seriously nowhere. Um. It's been more of, you know,

984
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,320
Speaker 1: a sort of long term dithering. H And it's hard

985
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: to imagine to me at least that that framework an

986
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 1: approach to global problem solving is gonna you know, somehow

987
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: be redeemed the next meeting a Glasgow and everything will

988
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: be fine again. Um. I think that from a purely

989
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: like real politic perspective, it's gonna take like the US

990
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,760
Speaker 1: and China creating a G two and just making rules

991
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 1: for the world. Those rules will be terrible um and

992
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,879
Speaker 1: and it it will be a kind of levi authoritarian

993
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: Leviathan form if that happens. I think, but I think

994
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: in terms of what we might actually anticipate happening in

995
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: the medium term, that's much closer than any sort of

996
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: like global hug that's gonna get us through this. I'm

997
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,439
Speaker 1: so like, I'm I'm pretty young, I'm eighteen. I'm part

998
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: of the zoomers, um my generation. You know. The friends

999
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: that I've had that are my age don't have much

1000
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: hope for the future. Kind of like the term we

1001
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 1: use is like a dum er. That's like kind of

1002
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: like the kind of thing we use is like we

1003
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: can't see anything besides doom and despair. And for some

1004
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: people that drives them to nihilism. For some people, it

1005
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: just drives them to apathy. Uh, sometimes it drives them

1006
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: to like anger and resentment and attack. Um do do

1007
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: you have any hope for what's going to happen in

1008
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: the next few years? Do you? You know, I'm not

1009
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,360
Speaker 1: sure if you have kids, but like how what what

1010
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: do you think? You know, like you're you're at least

1011
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: your teachers, Like what what do you say to like

1012
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: younger generations? In terms of like, how can we look

1013
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 1: at these very depressing problems and how can we get

1014
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: a more useful outlook than just being doomers, because like,

1015
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: the doomer action is natural, it's easy, you know. I

1016
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: I default to that every day. You know, it takes

1017
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 1: it takes takes active fighting to not just want to

1018
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: lay in my bed and cry. Um, So like what what? Yeah?

1019
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: Like do you have hope? Where does it? If so,

1020
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: where does it come from? Where can you see you know,

1021
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: not non dumor outlooks being useful? Yeah, I think about

1022
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: this all the time too. Um. I do have kids there,

1023
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: you're exactly your age, you're seventeen and twenty. Um. So

1024
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: one just graduated high school. There's part way through university. Um,

1025
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: that's what he went to do. Um And I don't

1026
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: think interestingly enough. And I don't mean this in any

1027
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: kind of like value of way. Neither of them are dumers.

1028
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 1: Both of them are. I wouldn't call them hopeful, but

1029
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: they are. They are not h which and it would

1030
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: be totally reasonable to be. They are not obsessed with

1031
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: what the future seems not to hold. Um. And I

1032
00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: say that only because um, I do think that well,

1033
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 1: I guess one of the have to sort of responses,

1034
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: and the first of which is is, I apologize quite cliche,

1035
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: but I actually think it still matters, and that is

1036
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: that your generation will soon be in charge and that's

1037
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 1: a very good, good thing. Um. But but that's the cliche.

1038
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: But the second part is that I I because I because,

1039
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: like Robert was saying earlier, I think I'm assuming you

1040
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: sort of have a little bit of a similar take

1041
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: cares because I don't see this as kind of like

1042
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: a collapse process, but rather us managing a series of

1043
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: radical changes in the way that systems work, crumblings, you know,

1044
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: and breakdowns, that kind of thing, but also changes that

1045
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: that we that my hope lies in our capacity to

1046
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: use those moments as ways to not fix things or

1047
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: make things all better, but to like work together generously

1048
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: with the folks with whom we're alive they'll be dickheads

1049
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: for sure, um, to to make the most of what

1050
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: we have at that moment and to work to the future.

1051
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: And I don't see those moments running out. Those will

1052
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: be there, and insofar as we leap into them generously,

1053
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: because we don't know any better than anyone else, necessarily

1054
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: we will always have the capacity for hopeful and actually

1055
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: joyous solidarity in confronting those problems, and it won't always

1056
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 1: be fun around on the tournament romanticize it. But all

1057
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say is that I actually think that

1058
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: they're the world will not be without joy unless we

1059
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: choose to let it go there. And I guess like,

1060
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: at least for now, I still feel like we can.

1061
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: We can tell ourselves, we can, we can confront what's

1062
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 1: coming our way. I don't know if it's going to

1063
01:00:56,480 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: be bad or good, but we will do so. Um.

1064
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: And there will be a group of us who does

1065
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: it with good in our hearts, and I would just

1066
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: take that for what it's worth, you know. Yeah, It's like,

1067
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: in like a weird way, a lot of these crumbles

1068
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 1: will almost give an opportunity for radical freedom because like,

1069
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: you know, we we think of ourselves and looking like

1070
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: a free society, but you know, we rely on so

1071
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: many things that are out of our control and that

1072
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: you know makes us unhappy subconsciously and subconsciously um. And

1073
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: when we're forced to live such be so active in

1074
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: our life and in our communities and with you know,

1075
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,640
Speaker 1: people we love and care about. You know, it does

1076
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: it the one thing that I hope that I do

1077
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 1: hope for that it will give us more opportunities to

1078
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: have like some like radical freedom, um, and you know,

1079
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: be able to live and to be able to have

1080
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: small communities that can live, you know, much much more

1081
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: free than what we do now. Um in terms of

1082
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, authoritarianism from the state and through you know,

1083
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: companies in capital um. Yeah, as as long as as

1084
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: long as we don't fall into a full military dictatorship

1085
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: of capital tech. UM, that's kind of that's kind of

1086
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: the thing that I would like. Um. Yeah, I don't know.

1087
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,920
Speaker 1: It's really hard to talk about this stuff without sounding cheesy. Yeah. Yeah,

1088
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: especially when you talk about when you try to sell

1089
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: people on the only possible optimistic outcomes for this, because

1090
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: there's you you have to I guess I think we

1091
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: were also trying. This is another thing capitalism does well,

1092
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: talking about it as a resilient system. Um. When you

1093
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 1: talk about alternatives to capitalism, it's hard not to sound like, uh,

1094
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's hard not to sound silly to people

1095
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: because anything that isn't this specific system either sounds you're

1096
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: either going back and saying I want to do a

1097
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: community Soviet Union again, but we'll get it right this time,

1098
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: or you're I don't know, it's it's tough because people

1099
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,000
Speaker 1: are are very bought have very much bought into the

1100
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: idea that like anything that isn't a slight modification of

1101
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: what we're doing right now is um is silly, uh

1102
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: star trek bullshit. You know, I agree you guys, you

1103
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 1: guys have probably both heard that. I always come back

1104
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 1: to it all the time. I think it's great that

1105
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: famous quote from Frederick Jamison where he says it's easier

1106
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 1: to imagine the end of the world than it is

1107
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 1: the end of capitalism and u and it gets attributed

1108
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: to tons of different people, but it was you know,

1109
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: it was coined by that guy Jamison. He's a English

1110
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: professor actually weirdly enough at Duke. But there's a good

1111
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,439
Speaker 1: ursula kay La gwinn uh comment on kind of the same.

1112
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm sure, but I think you're right, Like

1113
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a quip and it's sort of

1114
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: you know, superficial, but it's actually also true. Like a

1115
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: lot of the times today, it does feel like that

1116
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 1: it's easy, it's literally easier to imagine us driving the

1117
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: planet into the end of its functioning, and it is

1118
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: for many people to imagine otherwise. I think I think

1119
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: you're right, Robert, like when you tell people, oh, no, no,

1120
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,960
Speaker 1: In fact, a lot of things could be otherwise, and

1121
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: we could have it quite quickly if we chose. People

1122
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,160
Speaker 1: look at you like you have two heads. Yeah, And

1123
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 1: that was one of the most optimistic thing I've experienced

1124
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,960
Speaker 1: in the last several years was going to northeast Syria,

1125
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: which is a mess in a very complicated situation, but

1126
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: like sitting down with like militia in the desert and

1127
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 1: having these conversations about like the future that they were

1128
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:36,960
Speaker 1: trying to build, and like here's the like here's our

1129
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: soil reclamation project, and like here's the way we're trying

1130
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: to like alter and it like, well, if they're able

1131
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:47,920
Speaker 1: to like try, that's remarkable and they've got some ship

1132
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 1: to deal with, you know. Um amazing, Yeah, thank you

1133
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, super nice to meet you both. I

1134
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: really appreciate. And that is our interview with Jeff Mann,

1135
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: co author of Climate Leviathan. You can find him on

1136
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: Twitter at Jeff p. Man Um Jeff spelt with a

1137
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: with a with a G. Not with a not with

1138
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: a J, and follow us on Twitter, at cool Zone

1139
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: Media and happen Here pod. You can find me at

1140
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: Hungry bow Tie. Thank you for listening, and see you tomorrow.