Speaker 1: Hey mesties, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright side, I'll
Speaker 1: have what she's having. As our week of Love and
Speaker 1: Relationships continue, we're celebrating the Queen of rom comms, Nora Efron.
Speaker 1: Joining us is writer Alana Kaplin. She has a brand
Speaker 1: new book, Nora Efron at the Movies, So we're going
Speaker 1: to dig into Nora's cultural significance, her inspirations, and the
Speaker 1: lasting impact that she's had on fans around the world.
Speaker 1: It's Thursday, February thirteenth.
Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe, I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the
Speaker 2: bright side from Hello Sunshine, Danielle. Okay, when it comes
Speaker 2: to Nora Efron, We've got When Harry met Sally, You've
Speaker 2: got Male Sleepless in Seattle, Julia and Julia. I mean,
Speaker 2: the list goes on. Okay, what comes to mind for
Speaker 2: you when you think of Nora Efron, either books or movies.
Speaker 2: Do you have a core memory?
Speaker 3: For sure?
Speaker 1: The first thing that comes to my mind is Harry
Speaker 1: met Sally. It's just truly an iconic film. And I
Speaker 1: say that because it has some of the best dialogue
Speaker 1: in realm com history, and it was a film that
Speaker 1: at the time explored the nuance of relationships like friendship
Speaker 1: and timing and emotional honesty in a way that I
Speaker 1: think if you watch that movie today, it resonates decades later,
Speaker 1: And you can't say that about a lot of realm comms,
Speaker 1: Like there's an expiration date on rom coms, because they
Speaker 1: kind of capture love as it was seen and experienced
Speaker 1: in a moment in time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's so well said. I also think what
Speaker 2: sets her films apart is the lore that has been
Speaker 2: created around it. Like when I think of when Harry
Speaker 2: mt Sally think of Katz's Deli and like going to
Speaker 2: New York and actually physically getting to go see it.
Speaker 2: I think of the Serendipity Cafe in New York City,
Speaker 2: which is where they filmed a lot of You've Got Mail.
Speaker 2: So it's fun that you can actually kind of still
Speaker 2: live in and recreate these moments that we've all adored
Speaker 2: on screen for years. That's such a good point.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like how you want to go see
Speaker 1: the Cafe of the Friends cast, like it just meant
Speaker 1: so much to the film or the TV show, and
Speaker 1: you can't say that about a ton of movies. Totally
Speaker 1: Nora's work has such an eternal quality, and I think
Speaker 1: one of the reasons is that her films don't just
Speaker 1: talk about finding love, or her work doesn't talk about
Speaker 1: just finding love, but it's about figuring out who you
Speaker 1: are on the way there too. So I want to
Speaker 1: get into it all with our guest today joining us
Speaker 1: as writer and journalist Alana Kaplan and for her new
Speaker 1: book Nora Efron at the Movies, Alana dug into Nora's
Speaker 1: cultural significance, her style, the way that Nora redefined love
Speaker 1: and relationships for women.
Speaker 3: Let's bring her in.
Speaker 1: Okay, Alana Kathlin, Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: We are big Nora Efrin fans over here. Why are
Speaker 1: you a Nora Efrin fan? Why did you want to
Speaker 1: be entrenched in her universe?
Speaker 4: I think that you know.
Speaker 5: I grew up delusionally thinking that my life was going
Speaker 5: to a rom com.
Speaker 4: I wanted it to be a rom com.
Speaker 5: Rom Coms were such an inherent part of like who
Speaker 5: I was. And You've Got Mail was the first Noraphron
Speaker 5: movie ever saw. I used to watch TBS and TNT marathons.
Speaker 5: They would do romcom marathons, and I absolutely fell in
Speaker 5: love with the chemistry and the storytelling, and it felt
Speaker 5: like a great fit for me, especially with my background.
Speaker 3: There's this great line in your book you write.
Speaker 1: Whenever I watch any Nora Efren movie, I can't help
Speaker 1: but think about how nobody did it like her and
Speaker 1: no one can follow her. First of all, why can
Speaker 1: no one follow her? And how did she do it
Speaker 1: so differently? What was so revolutionary about her work?
Speaker 3: Her work was.
Speaker 5: So singular because of her voice and her perspective, and
Speaker 5: you know, not everyone can master funny, sharp writing and
Speaker 5: fully fleshed out characters. There's an acidity to the way
Speaker 5: that she writes. I was going to say, just like
Speaker 5: in her essays, she really was able to write like
Speaker 5: your funny best friend. You probably did it, know, Nora,
Speaker 5: but it felt like you did every time you read it.
Speaker 5: You know, I feel bad about my neck or any
Speaker 5: of her other essays, especially about aging. I felt like
Speaker 5: that felt really relatable to a lot of people. Before
Speaker 5: Nora's work, a lot of female heroines were much more polished,
Speaker 5: and when Noura wrote women, she wrote them with the
Speaker 5: female gaze in mind, and I feel like she was
Speaker 5: able to see women as messy, complex, high maintenance, at
Speaker 5: times funny and you know, not virginal. And it really
Speaker 5: changed the trajectory of how women are portrayed on screen.
Speaker 5: And also, you know how we talk about sexuality in
Speaker 5: rom coms.
Speaker 1: It sounds like from what you're saying too, that up
Speaker 1: until Nora's work, rom coms were a little bit more
Speaker 1: trite or they fit into this very particular mold, and
Speaker 1: she just had a very different of writing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think that to this day, when
Speaker 5: you hear people talk about Nora Efron, they often will
Speaker 5: immediately speak about the writing. And when Harry met Sally,
Speaker 5: just how clever it was. Just the familiarity between the characters,
Speaker 5: and so many other directors and screenwriters wanted to be
Speaker 5: like Nora Efron, like John Turtletab who made While You
Speaker 5: Were Sleeping, wanted to make his Nora Fron movie. And
Speaker 5: you see allusions to Richard Curtis's work and taking cues
Speaker 5: from her, And I think it's interesting to see how
Speaker 5: much she's impacted the genre.
Speaker 2: So Alano, when the opportunity to write this book presented itself,
Speaker 2: it's called Nora Efron at the Movies. Where did you
Speaker 2: start with your research. Who did you talk to?
Speaker 5: The first thing I did was watch all of her movies.
Speaker 5: I hadn't seen all of her movies. I've seen a
Speaker 5: lot of the ones you've probably heard of. And then
Speaker 5: I saw someone you might not have. But I didn't
Speaker 5: know she had a hand in certain projects. I didn't
Speaker 5: know that Mixed Nuts existed and she was a part
Speaker 5: of it. I didn't know about Silkwood at that time.
Speaker 5: I didn't realize that she wrote that with Alice Arlin.
Speaker 5: I wanted to get a sense of how her career
Speaker 5: trajectory changed, how her voice changed, how she transitioned from genres,
Speaker 5: and you know, like when she kind of wanted to
Speaker 5: not be boxed in as a rom com queen versus
Speaker 5: trying to venture into other genres. I bought every book
Speaker 5: that Nora had ever written. I read every essay she's
Speaker 5: ever written, every article she's written. I think it was
Speaker 5: interesting to kind of separate the topic she covered, you know,
Speaker 5: aging or fashion or food, and how much heart went
Speaker 5: into those pieces and how much of her we got
Speaker 5: to know through those pieces. Additionally, she was also a playwright,
Speaker 5: so I read those plays, and you know, I think
Speaker 5: the most fascinating part about it is just learning why
Speaker 5: she was so interested in making certain plays and they
Speaker 5: stood the test of time, or like how her fixations
Speaker 5: became plays. Her topic choices were always really interesting, and
Speaker 5: I wanted to explore that.
Speaker 4: The other part of the research came.
Speaker 5: I emailed and reached out to as many people as
Speaker 5: you can possibly think of, main characters, sporting characters, collaborators, friends,
Speaker 5: everybody in Castcrow. Did you talk to Meg Ryan? Not
Speaker 5: for a lack of trying, I didn't. It's funny is
Speaker 5: I was actually assigned a profile in Meg Ryan while
Speaker 5: I was writing the book, and she didn't end up
Speaker 5: wanting to do it.
Speaker 4: It was for like the Washington.
Speaker 2: Post, Alana, I'm so interested in your personal journey as
Speaker 2: you were writing this bookook because at the beginning of
Speaker 2: our conversation you mentioned that you kind of had this
Speaker 2: idea in your mind of how your life would go
Speaker 2: based on Nora Efron stories and movies. So what was
Speaker 2: happening in your life at the time that you were
Speaker 2: writing this book, and how did you reconcile the life
Speaker 2: you thought you were going to have with the life
Speaker 2: that you're living now, and how did you filter that
Speaker 2: through the lens of Nora Ephron's work.
Speaker 4: That's a great question.
Speaker 5: So I got engaged in twenty twenty, like about a
Speaker 5: month and a half into the pandemic, and my husband
Speaker 5: and I were planning our wedding through a big chunk
Speaker 5: of me writing this book. I actually think my draft
Speaker 5: was my first full draft, was due before my wedding,
Speaker 5: if not like a couple months later. I don't remember
Speaker 5: the timeline, but I remember I was like rushing to
Speaker 5: finish that and also planning my wedding, and it was
Speaker 5: just constant.
Speaker 4: It was chaotic.
Speaker 5: I always fantasized about my wedding and I wanted it
Speaker 5: to be this like magical day. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 5: like when is the magic gonna happen? Because I feel
Speaker 5: like I'm losing my mind. And what's funny is the
Speaker 5: week of our wedding we were like so stressed out.
Speaker 5: We even like argued like a day before because the
Speaker 5: place cards went missing and we went on like a
Speaker 5: four hour hunt throughout the hotel for them. And then
Speaker 5: as I was walking down the aisle, I felt like
Speaker 5: I was like watching myself from Afar. I felt like
Speaker 5: I was in a movie. As I was walking on
Speaker 5: aisle like I started out as a music writer, so
Speaker 5: I was very specific about like the music choices and
Speaker 5: just everything about it. It was perfect and romantic. It
Speaker 5: was not how I thought it would go, but it
Speaker 5: was everything I ever imagined.
Speaker 3: You got your rom calm wedding.
Speaker 4: I did get my rom calm wedding.
Speaker 5: And it doesn't mean it wasn't hard before and it
Speaker 5: hasn't been hard after. But this is all to say
Speaker 5: that I don't think Nora Efron's movies are not full
Speaker 5: of their challenges. It's not as straightforward as the rom
Speaker 5: comms that came before her. There are always obstacles, so
Speaker 5: there can be a happy ending, but there can also
Speaker 5: be obstacles before and after. And I think that my
Speaker 5: experience getting married and planning the wedding echoed that sentiment.
Speaker 1: I want to dig deeper on that because that is
Speaker 1: a pillar of the Nora Efrin rom com She had
Speaker 1: this female character, often played by Meg Ryan, that was
Speaker 1: a heroine, meaning she had a hero's journey, there were obstacles.
Speaker 1: Were there any other characteristics that stand out to you
Speaker 1: as a quintessential Nora Efrin character a female lead?
Speaker 5: To be precise, I always feel like their career driven
Speaker 5: and they're not just vying for the male attention. I
Speaker 5: think that they don't want to settle really well rounded,
Speaker 5: and that's what made them feel like they were still aspirational,
Speaker 5: like you still wanted to kind of have this maybe
Speaker 5: you wanted like this friendship turn romance like when Harry
Speaker 5: met Sally. It also felt attainable too, So it was aspirational,
Speaker 5: but it was attainable watching these characters develop.
Speaker 2: We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be
Speaker 2: right back with Alana Caplin. And we're back with journalist
Speaker 2: and author Alana Kaplin. You were talking about your wedding
Speaker 2: and the obstacles that inevitably come up with such a
Speaker 2: big event, as thinking about rom coms and how we
Speaker 2: we know how it's going to end for most of them,
Speaker 2: ninety nine percent of them, but we don't know what's
Speaker 2: going to happen along the way necessarily. And Nora had
Speaker 2: this superpower when it comes to depict the act of
Speaker 2: falling in love. What do you if you had to
Speaker 2: pinpoint it, what do you think her signature is in
Speaker 2: that respect?
Speaker 5: I think because there's so much tension along the way,
Speaker 5: there's she you know, there's the battle of the sexes
Speaker 5: element that she plays in. She was a huge like
Speaker 5: pride and prejudiced and Jane Austen fan. So it's fun
Speaker 5: to see those little elements shine through, like particularly and
Speaker 5: like You've Got Mail, And after all of the bickering
Speaker 5: and the opinionated female characters have their moment, they get
Speaker 5: a happy ending on their terms.
Speaker 1: I think, out of all of the movie the Nora movies,
Speaker 1: I loved, When Harry Met Sally is the penultimate. To me,
Speaker 1: Like I think about realm comms today and I think
Speaker 1: so many of them came from that film.
Speaker 5: I totally agree with you. I mean, I feel like
Speaker 5: that movie is the blueprint for so many other rom coms.
Speaker 5: If you look at like Leslie Hedlin Sleeping with other
Speaker 5: people like that movie looks, it looks like its own
Speaker 5: version of When Harry Met Sally. Visually, I think a
Speaker 5: couple of years ago, JABOOKI Young White Start in Love
Speaker 5: a New York and that was like a more like
Speaker 5: a digital like love in the digital era story that
Speaker 5: was definitely very influenced by When Harry Met Sally. There
Speaker 5: are tons of directors and writers who have referenced that movie.
Speaker 5: You know, into all the boys I've loved before. For instance,
Speaker 5: like the epistolary storytelling element like that to me is
Speaker 5: very Nora. I mean more Sleepless in Seattle, but like
Speaker 5: it's I think, if I'm remembering this correctly, Jenny Hahn
Speaker 5: actually moved. There's an article where Jenny han said she
Speaker 5: moved to New York to work in a bookstore and
Speaker 5: like hope to fall in love because of Nora Afron.
Speaker 3: She was really such a force.
Speaker 1: She was a journalist, she was a screenwriter, a novelist,
Speaker 1: a pretty or a director, and she really achieved so
Speaker 1: much at a time when it was much harder for
Speaker 1: women to hold any of those titles, let alone rite
Speaker 1: for the screen. What do you think made her so
Speaker 1: successful across so many industries.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think that it helped that she grew
Speaker 5: up with having screenwriter parents and kind of being immersed
Speaker 5: in the industry to some degree from a young age.
Speaker 5: You know, her voice was just really versatile. Like as
Speaker 5: someone who's a journalist or writer myself, I struggle with
Speaker 5: writing about myself. I think that it's really a skill
Speaker 5: for people to be able to do that, do it
Speaker 5: well and be able to like storytell at the same time,
Speaker 5: and she had a knack for doing that in all forms.
Speaker 5: I think that her journalism career is what helped her
Speaker 5: really like find the confidence to work in film, and
Speaker 5: you know, like her screen writing gave her the launching
Speaker 5: pad to be able to eventually direct. So I think
Speaker 5: it's interesting that she really kept challenging herself.
Speaker 1: If we think of her as a character in her
Speaker 1: own story, as a female heroine who faced obstacles, what
Speaker 1: sticks out to you.
Speaker 5: I think the rejection is not as straightforward in terms
Speaker 5: of career. I think she faced a lot of rejection
Speaker 5: when it came to having critical misfires. Like while her
Speaker 5: rom coms were really successful, she struggled when it came
Speaker 5: to making some of the more the black comedies or
Speaker 5: the slapstick films. It's hard when you've been so successful
Speaker 5: at something to not be pigeonholed.
Speaker 3: Did she try to make those types of films?
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I mean brutally honest, Like Lucky Numbers is
Speaker 5: one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Like it's
Speaker 5: very forgettable. I remember when it came out because it
Speaker 5: was I think it was like two thousand when it
Speaker 5: came out.
Speaker 4: And I I thought it was going to be really good.
Speaker 5: I remember I hadn't watched in years, and I watched
Speaker 5: it for the writing of this book, and it's like,
Speaker 5: maybe it's not as bad as I remember. And because
Speaker 5: it has like John Travolta, Lisa Koter, Michael Moore's in it,
Speaker 5: there's a lot of people in this movie and it
Speaker 5: is just very unwatchable. And there's been article since, like
Speaker 5: from the screenwriter that I just think she wasn't like
Speaker 5: the right fit for this kind of movie, and like
Speaker 5: that said, like I have to admire that she wanted
Speaker 5: to try these things or had the opportunity to, because
Speaker 5: I don't think everyone gets the opportunity to try these things.
Speaker 5: It gets the budget to try these things in Hollywood,
Speaker 5: especially women or women of color.
Speaker 2: And men are given permission to fail, but women aren't
Speaker 2: at the box office exactly.
Speaker 5: And then from a personal standpoint, I feel like Heartburn,
Speaker 5: her autobiographical novel, is all about Rejection, which is an
Speaker 5: incredible movie too, starring Meryl Streep and Jack Nicholson, but
Speaker 5: it's about the dissolution of her marriage and how her
Speaker 5: husband not named Carl Bernstein in the book, but Carl
Speaker 5: Bernstein cheated on her, but it's a breakup rom com
Speaker 5: film to me. To me, it's an honorary member of
Speaker 5: the rom com trio because at the end she gets
Speaker 5: a happy ending, but she's starting over on her own
Speaker 5: and as a single mom, and I think the ending
Speaker 5: is really beautiful. So I feel like, you know, she
Speaker 5: handled rejection in a way that I feel like a
Speaker 5: lot of people admire, Like, if this man cheated on
Speaker 5: you, you wrote an entire novel and then autobiographical novel, and
Speaker 5: then you also wrote a movie that he would need
Speaker 5: to see everywhere by a movie that starred two of
Speaker 5: Hollywood's biggest actors.
Speaker 2: Did Nora think of her work as feminist.
Speaker 4: I think she did.
Speaker 5: I do think that the thing about Nora's work is,
Speaker 5: while there are feminist elements to it, especially you know,
Speaker 5: in the way that she talked about sexuality, the orgasm
Speaker 5: scene and when Harry met Sally, the independence that a
Speaker 5: lot of her female heroines had, there are a lot
Speaker 5: of blind spots when you're looking at her work. There
Speaker 5: are a few people of color in her films. I
Speaker 5: think she was an expert at white feminism. I don't
Speaker 5: think that it was intersectional and I think that her
Speaker 5: work is very necessary for the genre, but there are
Speaker 5: other people who I think she was progressive at the time,
Speaker 5: but I think a lot of people. There are several
Speaker 5: screenwriters and directors now who are pushing the narrative forward
Speaker 5: and making it more inclusive.
Speaker 2: I'm curious where you feel Norah's voice in your life now?
Speaker 2: What is her relevance in your life now?
Speaker 5: Uh, this kind of sounds like silly, but I've been
Speaker 5: really distraught because I have like necklines right.
Speaker 2: Now, I'm touching my own neck.
Speaker 5: No, Like I don't know if it's from technak or
Speaker 5: just because I'm like getting older and thirty five, So
Speaker 5: I keep thinking about her.
Speaker 4: I feel bad about my neck.
Speaker 5: I feel like the aging essays tend to hit a
Speaker 5: little bit harder as you get older. That's kind of
Speaker 5: where I've been thinking about her lately.
Speaker 4: I mean, I always.
Speaker 5: Find comfort in her rom coms, always in the fall
Speaker 5: and winter. That's like when I come back to her.
Speaker 5: So that's kind of where I'm I am with her.
Speaker 5: I definitely I've been immersed in Nora world for a
Speaker 5: while now, so I feel like I've been, you know,
Speaker 5: like easing back into it a little bit.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great answer.
Speaker 1: It's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back to our conversation with journalist and
Speaker 1: author Alana Kaplin.
Speaker 3: And we're back with Alana Kaplin.
Speaker 2: Okay, we have a quick game to send us out. Lana,
Speaker 2: all right, we are gonna play Shag Mary Kill Love
Speaker 2: It but applied to the Nora Ephron cinematic universe. Okay,
Speaker 2: so here are your choices. When Harry met Sally, You've
Speaker 2: Got Mail and Sleepless in Seattle, which movie are you
Speaker 2: marrying You've Got Mail? That's the one you want to
Speaker 2: spend eternity with?
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 4: It's my favorite. It's my favorite Nora movie.
Speaker 2: Okay, why tell us why?
Speaker 5: I mean really, despite the fact that Joe Fox is
Speaker 5: putting Kathleen Kelly out of business, Tom Hanks and his
Speaker 5: chemistry and that with Megrine is like unparalleled. The end
Speaker 5: when he delivers this apology and essentially in a proposal
Speaker 5: and he asks her like why she won't forgive him,
Speaker 5: and he's like, oh, how I wish she would. I
Speaker 5: get chills every time that line comes on. I have
Speaker 5: watched that movie for twenty plus years of my life
Speaker 5: and it still happens.
Speaker 4: I like, I just.
Speaker 2: Melt, Okay, which movie is a perfect one night stand?
Speaker 2: You're like, Okay, I've seen it once. I don't know
Speaker 2: that I need to see it again and again.
Speaker 5: Okay, So when Harry Matt Sally one night Stand, I
Speaker 5: mean also because it's just like obviously, like right, feels
Speaker 5: fitting for when Harry Matt Sally, I think I just
Speaker 5: generally don't like Harry.
Speaker 4: And he's quite chauvinistic.
Speaker 5: But again, I love that movie, like the characters, Marie's incredible, Like,
Speaker 5: there's so much about that movie I love. I just
Speaker 5: am You've got male girl at heart.
Speaker 2: So Sleepless in Seattle is that's the one getting the acts?
Speaker 4: It is?
Speaker 5: There are aspects of Sleepless and Seattle that I enjoy,
Speaker 5: and the concept I like.
Speaker 4: I don't like how Meg and Tom aren't.
Speaker 5: Really ever in the film together aside from the or
Speaker 5: like they're only in the film together for like two
Speaker 5: and one is the end. I also feel like it's
Speaker 5: a bit stockersh the whole concept. It's not my favorite
Speaker 5: of the rom com trio. That said, I do enjoy
Speaker 5: it when it's on and there's like a lot of
Speaker 5: beautiful elements to it.
Speaker 2: It's funny when you rewatch the movies from our childhood
Speaker 2: and you're like, that doesn't that doesn't quite track for me,
Speaker 2: that doesn't quite add up.
Speaker 1: I kind of like that Rita Wilson and Tom Hanks
Speaker 1: are in the film together. It's not the film that
Speaker 1: they met on, but it's fun to see real life
Speaker 1: relationships on screen and especially in hindsight.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I will say, like, I think one of
Speaker 5: the best, one of the best, if not the best
Speaker 5: moment of the film is Rita Wilson doing her like
Speaker 5: teary monologue retelling of an affair show Remember, is just
Speaker 5: amazing cinema.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: It's also interesting to me how Norah utilizes technology of
Speaker 1: the time as part of her storytelling, often like this
Speaker 1: was radio, obviously email. Like, I do think she was
Speaker 1: very of the moment in her storytelling.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I feel like she sometimes was ahead of her
Speaker 5: time or a little bit more on the pulse than
Speaker 5: other people who were like maybe denying that like email
Speaker 5: was going to take over. I wonder how she'd feel,
Speaker 5: I mean, I wonder how she'd feel about other aspects
Speaker 5: of technology now.
Speaker 4: But alas I.
Speaker 1: Know if she was alive, we might get a movie
Speaker 1: about texting her, dating apps, dating apps, texting AI.
Speaker 2: Well, Alana, thank you so much for coming on the
Speaker 2: bright Side, and congratulations on your book Naura Efron at
Speaker 2: the Movies.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
Speaker 5: for doing this today.
Speaker 3: Thanks Alana.
Speaker 1: Alana Kaplan is a journalist and author of the book
Speaker 1: Nora Efron at the Movies.
Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're back to popping
Speaker 2: off with our bright Side be see and very own
Speaker 2: showrunner Tim Paalazola. Join the conversation using hashtag the bright
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