WEBVTT - How Nora Ephron Reinvented Romantic Comedy 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.800 Hey mesties, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright side, I'll 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:09.560 have what she's having. As our week of Love and 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:13.920 Relationships continue, we're celebrating the Queen of rom comms, Nora Efron. 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:16.840 Joining us is writer Alana Kaplin. She has a brand 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.800 new book, Nora Efron at the Movies, So we're going 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.000 to dig into Nora's cultural significance, her inspirations, and the 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.480 lasting impact that she's had on fans around the world. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:28.560 It's Thursday, February thirteenth. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.280 I'm Danielle Robe, I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:39.080 bright side from Hello Sunshine, Danielle. Okay, when it comes 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.000 to Nora Efron, We've got When Harry met Sally, You've 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:44.959 got Male Sleepless in Seattle, Julia and Julia. I mean, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.120 the list goes on. Okay, what comes to mind for 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:50.839 you when you think of Nora Efron, either books or movies. 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:52.040 Do you have a core memory? 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:52.720 For sure? 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:54.920 The first thing that comes to my mind is Harry 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.600 met Sally. It's just truly an iconic film. And I 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.440 say that because it has some of the best dialogue 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.319 in realm com history, and it was a film that 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:10.160 at the time explored the nuance of relationships like friendship 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.720 and timing and emotional honesty in a way that I 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.880 think if you watch that movie today, it resonates decades later, 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.360 And you can't say that about a lot of realm comms, 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.360 Like there's an expiration date on rom coms, because they 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.560 kind of capture love as it was seen and experienced 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:27.559 in a moment in time. 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.959 Yeah, well, that's so well said. I also think what 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.399 sets her films apart is the lore that has been 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.360 created around it. Like when I think of when Harry 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:39.800 mt Sally think of Katz's Deli and like going to 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.160 New York and actually physically getting to go see it. 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.040 I think of the Serendipity Cafe in New York City, 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.160 which is where they filmed a lot of You've Got Mail. 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.080 So it's fun that you can actually kind of still 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.240 live in and recreate these moments that we've all adored 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.520 on screen for years. That's such a good point. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:57.160 It's kind of like how you want to go see 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.720 the Cafe of the Friends cast, like it just meant 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:01.360 so much to the film or the TV show, and 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.720 you can't say that about a ton of movies. Totally 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.760 Nora's work has such an eternal quality, and I think 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.120 one of the reasons is that her films don't just 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.360 talk about finding love, or her work doesn't talk about 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:14.920 just finding love, but it's about figuring out who you 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.840 are on the way there too. So I want to 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.160 get into it all with our guest today joining us 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.120 as writer and journalist Alana Kaplan and for her new 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.080 book Nora Efron at the Movies, Alana dug into Nora's 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:30.400 cultural significance, her style, the way that Nora redefined love 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:31.680 and relationships for women. 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:33.360 Let's bring her in. 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.960 Okay, Alana Kathlin, Welcome to the bright Side. 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:40.040 Thanks for having me. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.320 We are big Nora Efrin fans over here. Why are 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.480 you a Nora Efrin fan? Why did you want to 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:48.239 be entrenched in her universe? 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:49.960 I think that you know. 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:54.120 I grew up delusionally thinking that my life was going 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:54.720 to a rom com. 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.120 I wanted it to be a rom com. 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.160 Rom Coms were such an inherent part of like who 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.600 I was. And You've Got Mail was the first Noraphron 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.720 movie ever saw. I used to watch TBS and TNT marathons. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:10.000 They would do romcom marathons, and I absolutely fell in 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.200 love with the chemistry and the storytelling, and it felt 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.440 like a great fit for me, especially with my background. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.240 There's this great line in your book you write. 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:23.519 Whenever I watch any Nora Efren movie, I can't help 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.320 but think about how nobody did it like her and 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.680 no one can follow her. First of all, why can 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.800 no one follow her? And how did she do it 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.600 so differently? What was so revolutionary about her work? 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:36.720 Her work was. 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.960 So singular because of her voice and her perspective, and 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:45.200 you know, not everyone can master funny, sharp writing and 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.600 fully fleshed out characters. There's an acidity to the way 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:51.640 that she writes. I was going to say, just like 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:56.560 in her essays, she really was able to write like 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.560 your funny best friend. You probably did it, know, Nora, 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.440 but it felt like you did every time you read it. 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.000 You know, I feel bad about my neck or any 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.280 of her other essays, especially about aging. I felt like 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.960 that felt really relatable to a lot of people. Before 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:18.720 Nora's work, a lot of female heroines were much more polished, 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.320 and when Noura wrote women, she wrote them with the 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.440 female gaze in mind, and I feel like she was 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:32.039 able to see women as messy, complex, high maintenance, at 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:38.920 times funny and you know, not virginal. And it really 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:44.400 changed the trajectory of how women are portrayed on screen. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.720 And also, you know how we talk about sexuality in 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:48.479 rom coms. 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.080 It sounds like from what you're saying too, that up 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.000 until Nora's work, rom coms were a little bit more 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.280 trite or they fit into this very particular mold, and 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:00.600 she just had a very different of writing. 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.920 Yeah, I mean, I think that to this day, when 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.880 you hear people talk about Nora Efron, they often will 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.159 immediately speak about the writing. And when Harry met Sally, 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:16.360 just how clever it was. Just the familiarity between the characters, 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:21.039 and so many other directors and screenwriters wanted to be 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.560 like Nora Efron, like John Turtletab who made While You 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.080 Were Sleeping, wanted to make his Nora Fron movie. And 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.760 you see allusions to Richard Curtis's work and taking cues 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.760 from her, And I think it's interesting to see how 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:36.480 much she's impacted the genre. 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.800 So Alano, when the opportunity to write this book presented itself, 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.440 it's called Nora Efron at the Movies. Where did you 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:45.400 start with your research. Who did you talk to? 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.120 The first thing I did was watch all of her movies. 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.839 I hadn't seen all of her movies. I've seen a 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:53.800 lot of the ones you've probably heard of. And then 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.360 I saw someone you might not have. But I didn't 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.680 know she had a hand in certain projects. I didn't 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.720 know that Mixed Nuts existed and she was a part 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:06.560 of it. I didn't know about Silkwood at that time. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.799 I didn't realize that she wrote that with Alice Arlin. 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:14.159 I wanted to get a sense of how her career 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:19.800 trajectory changed, how her voice changed, how she transitioned from genres, 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.720 and you know, like when she kind of wanted to 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:28.000 not be boxed in as a rom com queen versus 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:33.880 trying to venture into other genres. I bought every book 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:38.839 that Nora had ever written. I read every essay she's 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:44.440 ever written, every article she's written. I think it was 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:48.600 interesting to kind of separate the topic she covered, you know, 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:53.760 aging or fashion or food, and how much heart went 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.760 into those pieces and how much of her we got 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:00.719 to know through those pieces. Additionally, she was also a playwright, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:05.280 so I read those plays, and you know, I think 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:10.080 the most fascinating part about it is just learning why 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:13.760 she was so interested in making certain plays and they 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.320 stood the test of time, or like how her fixations 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:21.040 became plays. Her topic choices were always really interesting, and 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:22.640 I wanted to explore that. 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:24.440 The other part of the research came. 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.440 I emailed and reached out to as many people as 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:34.120 you can possibly think of, main characters, sporting characters, collaborators, friends, 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.400 everybody in Castcrow. Did you talk to Meg Ryan? Not 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.200 for a lack of trying, I didn't. It's funny is 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.800 I was actually assigned a profile in Meg Ryan while 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:50.600 I was writing the book, and she didn't end up 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:51.400 wanting to do it. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.240 It was for like the Washington. 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:59.040 Post, Alana, I'm so interested in your personal journey as 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.240 you were writing this bookook because at the beginning of 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.800 our conversation you mentioned that you kind of had this 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:07.640 idea in your mind of how your life would go 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.600 based on Nora Efron stories and movies. So what was 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.440 happening in your life at the time that you were 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.080 writing this book, and how did you reconcile the life 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:21.920 you thought you were going to have with the life 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.640 that you're living now, and how did you filter that 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.720 through the lens of Nora Ephron's work. 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:28.680 That's a great question. 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.920 So I got engaged in twenty twenty, like about a 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.640 month and a half into the pandemic, and my husband 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:41.120 and I were planning our wedding through a big chunk 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:45.079 of me writing this book. I actually think my draft 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.160 was my first full draft, was due before my wedding, 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:50.760 if not like a couple months later. I don't remember 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.080 the timeline, but I remember I was like rushing to 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.679 finish that and also planning my wedding, and it was 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:57.480 just constant. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:08:58.480 It was chaotic. 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.679 I always fantasized about my wedding and I wanted it 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:07.600 to be this like magical day. And I was like, okay, 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.480 like when is the magic gonna happen? Because I feel 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:15.600 like I'm losing my mind. And what's funny is the 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.920 week of our wedding we were like so stressed out. 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.000 We even like argued like a day before because the 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.480 place cards went missing and we went on like a 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.800 four hour hunt throughout the hotel for them. And then 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.880 as I was walking down the aisle, I felt like 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.080 I was like watching myself from Afar. I felt like 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.199 I was in a movie. As I was walking on 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.400 aisle like I started out as a music writer, so 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.040 I was very specific about like the music choices and 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:46.280 just everything about it. It was perfect and romantic. It 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.920 was not how I thought it would go, but it 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:50.200 was everything I ever imagined. 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:52.360 You got your rom calm wedding. 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:54.240 I did get my rom calm wedding. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.280 And it doesn't mean it wasn't hard before and it 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.800 hasn't been hard after. But this is all to say 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:04.360 that I don't think Nora Efron's movies are not full 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:09.080 of their challenges. It's not as straightforward as the rom 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.480 comms that came before her. There are always obstacles, so 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:14.840 there can be a happy ending, but there can also 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.240 be obstacles before and after. And I think that my 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:23.240 experience getting married and planning the wedding echoed that sentiment. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.320 I want to dig deeper on that because that is 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.480 a pillar of the Nora Efrin rom com She had 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:34.320 this female character, often played by Meg Ryan, that was 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:39.920 a heroine, meaning she had a hero's journey, there were obstacles. 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.280 Were there any other characteristics that stand out to you 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.200 as a quintessential Nora Efrin character a female lead? 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.440 To be precise, I always feel like their career driven 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:57.080 and they're not just vying for the male attention. I 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:01.840 think that they don't want to settle really well rounded, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.880 and that's what made them feel like they were still aspirational, 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.520 like you still wanted to kind of have this maybe 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.040 you wanted like this friendship turn romance like when Harry 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.680 met Sally. It also felt attainable too, So it was aspirational, 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.080 but it was attainable watching these characters develop. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:25.839 We've got to take a quick break, but we'll be 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:36.800 right back with Alana Caplin. And we're back with journalist 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.000 and author Alana Kaplin. You were talking about your wedding 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:44.160 and the obstacles that inevitably come up with such a 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.280 big event, as thinking about rom coms and how we 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.520 we know how it's going to end for most of them, 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.720 ninety nine percent of them, but we don't know what's 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.840 going to happen along the way necessarily. And Nora had 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.720 this superpower when it comes to depict the act of 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.760 falling in love. What do you if you had to 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:07.120 pinpoint it, what do you think her signature is in 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:07.760 that respect? 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:12.000 I think because there's so much tension along the way, 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.679 there's she you know, there's the battle of the sexes 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:18.800 element that she plays in. She was a huge like 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.640 pride and prejudiced and Jane Austen fan. So it's fun 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.000 to see those little elements shine through, like particularly and 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.240 like You've Got Mail, And after all of the bickering 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:33.600 and the opinionated female characters have their moment, they get 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.280 a happy ending on their terms. 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.680 I think, out of all of the movie the Nora movies, 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:44.400 I loved, When Harry Met Sally is the penultimate. To me, 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:48.520 Like I think about realm comms today and I think 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.800 so many of them came from that film. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.640 I totally agree with you. I mean, I feel like 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:59.120 that movie is the blueprint for so many other rom coms. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.760 If you look at like Leslie Hedlin Sleeping with other 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.360 people like that movie looks, it looks like its own 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.360 version of When Harry Met Sally. Visually, I think a 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.280 couple of years ago, JABOOKI Young White Start in Love 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:14.960 a New York and that was like a more like 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.880 a digital like love in the digital era story that 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:23.640 was definitely very influenced by When Harry Met Sally. There 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:29.280 are tons of directors and writers who have referenced that movie. 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.960 You know, into all the boys I've loved before. For instance, 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:37.480 like the epistolary storytelling element like that to me is 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:40.560 very Nora. I mean more Sleepless in Seattle, but like 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.000 it's I think, if I'm remembering this correctly, Jenny Hahn 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.240 actually moved. There's an article where Jenny han said she 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:50.439 moved to New York to work in a bookstore and 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:52.800 like hope to fall in love because of Nora Afron. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.400 She was really such a force. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.600 She was a journalist, she was a screenwriter, a novelist, 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.760 a pretty or a director, and she really achieved so 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.640 much at a time when it was much harder for 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.920 women to hold any of those titles, let alone rite 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.320 for the screen. What do you think made her so 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.320 successful across so many industries. 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.480 I mean, I think that it helped that she grew 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:21.080 up with having screenwriter parents and kind of being immersed 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.720 in the industry to some degree from a young age. 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.840 You know, her voice was just really versatile. Like as 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.520 someone who's a journalist or writer myself, I struggle with 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.960 writing about myself. I think that it's really a skill 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.520 for people to be able to do that, do it 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.280 well and be able to like storytell at the same time, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.080 and she had a knack for doing that in all forms. 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:52.200 I think that her journalism career is what helped her 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.960 really like find the confidence to work in film, and 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:02.280 you know, like her screen writing gave her the launching 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.160 pad to be able to eventually direct. So I think 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.600 it's interesting that she really kept challenging herself. 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.280 If we think of her as a character in her 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:19.120 own story, as a female heroine who faced obstacles, what 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:20.160 sticks out to you. 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.440 I think the rejection is not as straightforward in terms 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.280 of career. I think she faced a lot of rejection 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:33.480 when it came to having critical misfires. Like while her 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.280 rom coms were really successful, she struggled when it came 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.760 to making some of the more the black comedies or 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.440 the slapstick films. It's hard when you've been so successful 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.200 at something to not be pigeonholed. 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:48.440 Did she try to make those types of films? 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.160 Yeah, so, I mean brutally honest, Like Lucky Numbers is 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.880 one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Like it's 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.280 very forgettable. I remember when it came out because it 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:58.920 was I think it was like two thousand when it 0:15:58.960 --> 0:15:59.320 came out. 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.240 And I I thought it was going to be really good. 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.360 I remember I hadn't watched in years, and I watched 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.040 it for the writing of this book, and it's like, 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.760 maybe it's not as bad as I remember. And because 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.240 it has like John Travolta, Lisa Koter, Michael Moore's in it, 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.440 there's a lot of people in this movie and it 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:20.040 is just very unwatchable. And there's been article since, like 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:24.000 from the screenwriter that I just think she wasn't like 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.480 the right fit for this kind of movie, and like 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.480 that said, like I have to admire that she wanted 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.880 to try these things or had the opportunity to, because 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.360 I don't think everyone gets the opportunity to try these things. 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.760 It gets the budget to try these things in Hollywood, 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.120 especially women or women of color. 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.120 And men are given permission to fail, but women aren't 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:45.920 at the box office exactly. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.600 And then from a personal standpoint, I feel like Heartburn, 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:56.440 her autobiographical novel, is all about Rejection, which is an 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.240 incredible movie too, starring Meryl Streep and Jack Nicholson, but 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.280 it's about the dissolution of her marriage and how her 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.480 husband not named Carl Bernstein in the book, but Carl 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.640 Bernstein cheated on her, but it's a breakup rom com 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.919 film to me. To me, it's an honorary member of 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.240 the rom com trio because at the end she gets 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.960 a happy ending, but she's starting over on her own 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.320 and as a single mom, and I think the ending 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.760 is really beautiful. So I feel like, you know, she 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.399 handled rejection in a way that I feel like a 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.719 lot of people admire, Like, if this man cheated on 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:40.200 you, you wrote an entire novel and then autobiographical novel, and 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:44.320 then you also wrote a movie that he would need 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:48.320 to see everywhere by a movie that starred two of 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.520 Hollywood's biggest actors. 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.760 Did Nora think of her work as feminist. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:55.760 I think she did. 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.359 I do think that the thing about Nora's work is, 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.959 while there are feminist elements to it, especially you know, 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.280 in the way that she talked about sexuality, the orgasm 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.040 scene and when Harry met Sally, the independence that a 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.920 lot of her female heroines had, there are a lot 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.200 of blind spots when you're looking at her work. There 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.679 are a few people of color in her films. I 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:20.920 think she was an expert at white feminism. I don't 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:25.440 think that it was intersectional and I think that her 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:30.360 work is very necessary for the genre, but there are 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.320 other people who I think she was progressive at the time, 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.600 but I think a lot of people. There are several 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.760 screenwriters and directors now who are pushing the narrative forward 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:41.639 and making it more inclusive. 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:47.560 I'm curious where you feel Norah's voice in your life now? 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.560 What is her relevance in your life now? 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.440 Uh, this kind of sounds like silly, but I've been 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.800 really distraught because I have like necklines right. 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.240 Now, I'm touching my own neck. 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.439 No, Like I don't know if it's from technak or 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.040 just because I'm like getting older and thirty five, So 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:09.400 I keep thinking about her. 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:10.760 I feel bad about my neck. 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.199 I feel like the aging essays tend to hit a 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.080 little bit harder as you get older. That's kind of 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.600 where I've been thinking about her lately. 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:22.240 I mean, I always. 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:25.200 Find comfort in her rom coms, always in the fall 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:29.200 and winter. That's like when I come back to her. 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:31.760 So that's kind of where I'm I am with her. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.199 I definitely I've been immersed in Nora world for a 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.600 while now, so I feel like I've been, you know, 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:39.640 like easing back into it a little bit. 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:41.679 I think that's a great answer. 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.480 It's time for another short break, but don't go anywhere. 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.159 We'll be right back to our conversation with journalist and 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:49.520 author Alana Kaplin. 0:19:58.080 --> 0:19:59.600 And we're back with Alana Kaplin. 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.399 Okay, we have a quick game to send us out. Lana, 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.160 all right, we are gonna play Shag Mary Kill Love 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:12.480 It but applied to the Nora Ephron cinematic universe. Okay, 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:16.400 so here are your choices. When Harry met Sally, You've 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.760 Got Mail and Sleepless in Seattle, which movie are you 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.720 marrying You've Got Mail? That's the one you want to 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:23.640 spend eternity with? 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:24.080 I do. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.560 It's my favorite. It's my favorite Nora movie. 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:28.280 Okay, why tell us why? 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.679 I mean really, despite the fact that Joe Fox is 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:38.280 putting Kathleen Kelly out of business, Tom Hanks and his 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:44.360 chemistry and that with Megrine is like unparalleled. The end 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.440 when he delivers this apology and essentially in a proposal 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:51.600 and he asks her like why she won't forgive him, 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.280 and he's like, oh, how I wish she would. I 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.480 get chills every time that line comes on. I have 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.879 watched that movie for twenty plus years of my life 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:01.240 and it still happens. 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:03.000 I like, I just. 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:08.240 Melt, Okay, which movie is a perfect one night stand? 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.280 You're like, Okay, I've seen it once. I don't know 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:11.960 that I need to see it again and again. 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.679 Okay, So when Harry Matt Sally one night Stand, I 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:20.960 mean also because it's just like obviously, like right, feels 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:25.080 fitting for when Harry Matt Sally, I think I just 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:27.440 generally don't like Harry. 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:30.800 And he's quite chauvinistic. 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:36.120 But again, I love that movie, like the characters, Marie's incredible, Like, 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.320 there's so much about that movie I love. I just 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:40.480 am You've got male girl at heart. 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:44.160 So Sleepless in Seattle is that's the one getting the acts? 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:44.760 It is? 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:47.760 There are aspects of Sleepless and Seattle that I enjoy, 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:49.639 and the concept I like. 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:55.240 I don't like how Meg and Tom aren't. 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:57.840 Really ever in the film together aside from the or 0:21:57.920 --> 0:21:59.720 like they're only in the film together for like two 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:05.400 and one is the end. I also feel like it's 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.760 a bit stockersh the whole concept. It's not my favorite 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.480 of the rom com trio. That said, I do enjoy 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.119 it when it's on and there's like a lot of 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.359 beautiful elements to it. 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:17.960 It's funny when you rewatch the movies from our childhood 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.720 and you're like, that doesn't that doesn't quite track for me, 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:21.720