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Speaker 1: Hey, Brian, Hi Katie. So, in today's episode, Ladies and Gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: we're getting into some very touchy subjects. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: political correctness and cultural sensitivity with our guests New York

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Speaker 1: Times op ed writer Frank Bruney. So, as you know,

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Speaker 1: Frank has worked as everything from a white house correspondent

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Speaker 1: to a restaurant critic for The Times, and lately he's

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Speaker 1: been devoting some of his twice weekly columns to a

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Speaker 1: new subject, the debate over political correctness on college campuses.

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Speaker 1: You know, Frank has written a lot about how he

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Speaker 1: believes terms like safe spaces and microaggressions or a macro mistake. Now,

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Speaker 1: he's a white man who grew up in an upper

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Speaker 1: class household, and as such, he's well aware that he's

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Speaker 1: expected to quote unquote check his privilege at the door

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Speaker 1: and perhaps even question his own credibility when it comes

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Speaker 1: to matters of social justice. But I thought this was

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting. Frank questions the wisdom of what he calls

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Speaker 1: turning categories into credentials when it comes to politics and

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Speaker 1: public debate. He doesn't think life circumstances prohibit sensitivity and

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Speaker 1: sound judgment, while other conditions guarantee them. This conversation, by

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Speaker 1: the way, comes on the heels of the final episode. Yes,

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Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, the final hour, there were six of them.

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Speaker 1: Hope you all watch of my Nati called America inside

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Speaker 1: Out because I don't know if you've noticed, Brian, but

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Speaker 1: it's almost in everything we talk about, every subject we tackle,

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Speaker 1: there is this heightened sensitivity. And I wondered, is it

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Speaker 1: about time many marginalized communities called people out on insulting

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Speaker 1: them or on demeaning them, Or have we gotten so

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Speaker 1: sensitive you can't say anything in this day and age.

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Speaker 1: So I was really interested in kind of the yin

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Speaker 1: and yang of this conversation. So in our conversation with Frank,

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Speaker 1: we talked about his own life circumstances, about trigger warnings

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Speaker 1: and safe spaces and snow flakes and all these buzzwords,

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Speaker 1: and about the college campuses across the country that have

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Speaker 1: turned into powder kegs, with speakers literally being shut down

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Speaker 1: and shut out before they can even speak. I started

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Speaker 1: by asking Frank about political correctness, the term itself, which

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Speaker 1: I'm almost hesitant to use because it's been co opted, weaponized,

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Speaker 1: and politicized since we started hearing the term in the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties. It's kind of surprising to me we

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Speaker 1: haven't come up with a replacement for it because it's

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Speaker 1: just not able to carry all the baggage that people

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Speaker 1: are putting on it right now. But yeah, what term

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Speaker 1: would you use if you have to do well? We're

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Speaker 1: talking about a kind of ideological orthodoxy, is what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. I think when most people talk about political correctness,

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Speaker 1: they're talking about an ideological orthodoxy on the left. That's

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Speaker 1: what I think they mean. That's I think a good

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Speaker 1: way of putting it. Let's start by talking about college campuses,

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Speaker 1: because I know you've written extensively about this. In my hour,

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Speaker 1: I spent some time at Northwestern and extaposed it with

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Speaker 1: the University of Chicago to two different approaches when it

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Speaker 1: comes to things like trigger warnings, safe spaces, micro aggressions, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: which just miles geographically apart. So very well, totally so

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Speaker 1: it was it was really interesting. And you're not a

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Speaker 1: big fan of intellectual safe spaces, trigger warnings, microaggressions, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: Are you? Is that a safe assumption? That's totally fair

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Speaker 1: to say, because I think that I certainly think that

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Speaker 1: every campus should be a physically safe environment for students.

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Speaker 1: I mean that goes without saying, um. They should not

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Speaker 1: have to worry about sexual assault. They should not have

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Speaker 1: to worry about being physically bullied or being bullied in

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Speaker 1: other egregious ways. But when we're talking about safe spaces,

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Speaker 1: and when we're talking about trigger warnings, and even when

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Speaker 1: we're talking at times about the prevalence and the spread

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Speaker 1: of affinity groups, we're talking about constructing a world for

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Speaker 1: students that is nothing like the world they're about to

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Speaker 1: go in. And I'm not sure that's consistent with the

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Speaker 1: with the mission of college and the greatest use of college.

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Speaker 1: So do you think there's snowflakes? I don't like that

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Speaker 1: term because I think it's so dismissive and I think

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Speaker 1: it takes people. It mashes everyone together from people who

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Speaker 1: are offended reflexively by everything uh. And and that term

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Speaker 1: I think is meant to connote that, um, but it

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Speaker 1: mashes them together with people who are wrestling in a

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Speaker 1: very earnest and I think important way with how we

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Speaker 1: construct universes that are respectful without being ridiculously uh censorious

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Speaker 1: of any kind of speech or any kind of behavior

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Speaker 1: that colors outside of somebody's lines. You know, let me

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Speaker 1: push back on you a little bit, Frank, because I

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Speaker 1: had the same attitudes that you did. And then I

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Speaker 1: went and talked to some of these students, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying I did a total about face, but I

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Speaker 1: did come away with a better understanding of some of

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Speaker 1: these terms. For example, trigger warning, Uh. To me, it's

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Speaker 1: almost like what you used to see before you saw

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Speaker 1: a film at the movie theater, you know, whether it

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Speaker 1: was G P, g ARE. It's basically a warning that

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Speaker 1: some of this content may be upsetting. And young woman

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Speaker 1: at Northwestern told me that her professor said, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be discussing black face today. Now, that might make

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Speaker 1: you uncomfortable, and I just wanted to kind of give

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Speaker 1: you a heads up. She said, Oh, no, I'm fine,

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Speaker 1: but I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. To me, if that

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Speaker 1: is what a trigger warning is, that's perfectly acceptable and

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Speaker 1: really just I think an example of being carrying and

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Speaker 1: thoughtful to your students, I wouldn't disagree with you. And

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Speaker 1: if that, if that were every trigger warning, the problem

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Speaker 1: is we don't know what every trigger warning is. We

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Speaker 1: also don't know how prevalent they are, so, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think one important thing to say in this discussion is, sometimes, um,

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Speaker 1: I think we extrapolate from stories that get out there

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Speaker 1: and we assume that this is happening onege campuses, and

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Speaker 1: it may really only be happening on fifty Now, it

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Speaker 1: is a real thing. Trigger warnings are a real thing.

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Speaker 1: Safe spaces are a real thing. Um. We may exaggerate

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Speaker 1: how widely they've spread. But here's the thing. If trigger

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Speaker 1: warnings are a little prevalent, we don't know exactly how

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Speaker 1: prevalent they are, if they're not all delivered in quite

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Speaker 1: the way that you just described. Does life give you

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Speaker 1: trigger warnings? Is it setting up an expectation for the

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Speaker 1: way you can navigate the world that's unrealistic, And is

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Speaker 1: it sending a message? And I don't know the answer.

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Speaker 1: I'm asking the question. Is it sending a message that

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Speaker 1: you can go through the world with a kind of

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Speaker 1: emotional bubble wrap? And that worries some of us in

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Speaker 1: particular because the way a lot of kids have been

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Speaker 1: raised today is an extension of this over helicopter parenting

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Speaker 1: and over I think I think it might beybody gets

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Speaker 1: a trophy. I think it might be and I'm saying

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Speaker 1: might be because I'm glad you began the conversation. That's

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Speaker 1: where I think we do need to be careful with

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Speaker 1: our language. It's so easy in the world of Twitter,

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Speaker 1: and in the world of right left media and our

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Speaker 1: ed columns like the one I write, it's so easy

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Speaker 1: to kind of paint stark realities. It might be an

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Speaker 1: extension of that kind of child rearing. It might be

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Speaker 1: part of that point. Frank Um. We have a clip

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Speaker 1: um from last year of Van Jones from CNN, who's

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Speaker 1: also a liberal. He was in conversation with David axel

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Speaker 1: Rod on my University of Chicago. I love I've quoted

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Speaker 1: this a million times, he says it best. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna play what he said in response to

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Speaker 1: a question about how progressive students should react to ideologically

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Speaker 1: offensive speakers on college campuses. I don't want you to

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Speaker 1: be safe ideologically. I don't want you to be safe emotionally.

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Speaker 1: I want you to be strong. That's different. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to pave the jungle for you. Put on some

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Speaker 1: boots and learn how to deal with adversity. You are

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Speaker 1: creating a kind of liberalism that the minute it crosses

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Speaker 1: the street into the real world is not just useless,

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Speaker 1: but obnoxious and dangerous. I want you to be offended

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Speaker 1: every single day on this campus. I want you to

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Speaker 1: be deeply aggrieved and offended and upset, and then to

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Speaker 1: learn how to speak back. For rank. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm so I'm happy. He doesn't even describe how I

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Speaker 1: feel about the fact that you included that clip. I'm exulted.

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Speaker 1: I'm I have I have quoted almost all of those words.

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Speaker 1: They didn't fit easily, but I've quoted most of that

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Speaker 1: in a column that I wrote in The Times. I

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Speaker 1: quote them in speeches that I give. I think Van

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Speaker 1: says it as well as it's ever been said. And yes,

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Speaker 1: he's being a little bit provocative when he's saying your

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Speaker 1: liberalism is obnoxious, etcetera. But he does need to use

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Speaker 1: strong language to make that point. The point being that

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Speaker 1: the world of ideas, the world of knowledge, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a rough and tumble world. It's meant to be. That's

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Speaker 1: how we grapple and hash our way to the truth.

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Speaker 1: And I think everything Van says there's really really important. Well,

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Speaker 1: isn't this really about bringing things to the extreme? For example,

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Speaker 1: saying a trigger warning for the Merchant of Venice because

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Speaker 1: it's anti Semitic, or saying, you know, to kill a

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Speaker 1: mocking bird or Huckleberry Finn. Now, how do you feel

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Speaker 1: about those two great works of fiction? You know that

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Speaker 1: both use the N word. And for African American students

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Speaker 1: who want to feel a part of the conversation, want

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Speaker 1: to be I think acknowledged and heard. Is that appropriate

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Speaker 1: to say, Hey, this language is tough or it might

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Speaker 1: make you uncomfortable. I think it's absolutely appropriate and that

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Speaker 1: circumstance to acknowledge that this language is in here um

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Speaker 1: and might might well offend, and it's coming from a

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Speaker 1: much different era, you know, so be prepared for it.

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Speaker 1: But I also think here's the problem again, the way

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Speaker 1: that said is it actually kind of patronizing and emotionally

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Speaker 1: caught Like I, I actually think people are smarter than

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Speaker 1: we often give them credit. The college students are smarter

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Speaker 1: than we often give them credit for. I'm guessing a

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Speaker 1: lot of college students realize they're reading a book from

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Speaker 1: a much different era with terms and realities in it

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Speaker 1: that don't at all reflect a much more enlightened and

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Speaker 1: fair and just era. Um it's probably a good idea

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Speaker 1: to give them a warning, but are you sure, kitty,

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Speaker 1: they really needed that warning and wouldn't have understood that

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Speaker 1: they're reading something in the context of its time, and

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Speaker 1: that no professor in the world and putting this on

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Speaker 1: the syllabus is endorsing that language. No, of course not.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I interviewed an African American sensitivity reader,

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Speaker 1: which is another area where we're seeing this kind of

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Speaker 1: heightened heightened sensitivity, and she said, you know, people don't

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Speaker 1: understand how incredibly uncomfortable I felt, as the only black

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Speaker 1: girl in school as to kill a mocking bird as

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Speaker 1: the class read this novel. And I think sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: just even acknowledging that discomfort is a positive thing. It's not,

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Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying in a patronizing way. But

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Speaker 1: to hear her talk about that, she frank, I was

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Speaker 1: never cognizant. It didn't really cross my mind that she

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Speaker 1: When I read this in high school and there were

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Speaker 1: some black kids in the class, how did they feel

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Speaker 1: about that? I just wasn't within my realm of consciousness,

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Speaker 1: which is bad on me, but it made me realize,

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Speaker 1: you know, we need to pay attention to how different

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Speaker 1: people are receiving the same information. Yes, no, And I

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Speaker 1: think it's all a matter of comes back to these

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Speaker 1: subtler distinctions of how are you doing it to what

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Speaker 1: degree with what sort of message? You know, are you

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Speaker 1: not over doing to the point where you're telling someone

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Speaker 1: they should be inoculated from anything that might be upsetting.

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Speaker 1: I can't speak to what it's like to come across

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Speaker 1: one of those words because I'm not black, you know,

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Speaker 1: but I mean I'm gay. Um. And to this moment,

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Speaker 1: I run across all sorts of stuff from the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties, um,

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Speaker 1: ten years ago that traffic and sorts of stereotypes and

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Speaker 1: language that are now understood to be very offensive and

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Speaker 1: not used. Um. I mean, I'm older now, but even

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Speaker 1: when I was younger, that didn't I understood that I

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Speaker 1: was seeing something from an earlier era. I may not

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Speaker 1: have liked it, but I'm not sure I needed a

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Speaker 1: trigger warning for it. And to your point, Frank, trigger

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Speaker 1: warnings maybe a result or emblematic of a big shift

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Speaker 1: in the culture that you've written about, where people are

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Speaker 1: judged not by the argument they're making necessarily, but by

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Speaker 1: their qualifications to make it they're racial or ethnic or

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Speaker 1: sexual qualifications. Um, there's a great quote from one of

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Speaker 1: your columns that I just want to read briefly. You wrote,

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Speaker 1: firmly in cheek, I'm a white man, so you should

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Speaker 1: listen to absolutely nothing I say, at least on matters

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Speaker 1: of social justice. I have no standing, no way to

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Speaker 1: relate my color and gender nullify me, and it gets worse.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in the suburbs. Dad made six figures.

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Speaker 1: We had a backyard pool from the tent through twelfth grades.

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Speaker 1: I attended private school. So the only proper way for

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Speaker 1: me to check my privilege is to realize that it

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Speaker 1: blinds me. Are you concerned that that's where we're going

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Speaker 1: as a society and how do we think about that?

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Speaker 1: In a way, I feel like, Frank, we've gone from

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Speaker 1: identity politics to identity conversations or identity discourse. Well, I

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Speaker 1: it's funny. The other day was talking with a friend

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Speaker 1: and I wondered if we were in the era of

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Speaker 1: identity journalism, And that was the phrase I used, because

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Speaker 1: I read a lot of journalism, especially in opinion sections,

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Speaker 1: where the writer is not necessarily making an argument, the

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Speaker 1: writer is just saying, this is how I experienced this,

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Speaker 1: this thing that happened as a transperson, this is how

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Speaker 1: I experienced it, you know, as a black man, or

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Speaker 1: as a black woman, or as a Latino woman, like

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Speaker 1: and and they're interesting articles, and it's important that we

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Speaker 1: have the diverse voices, absolutely, but sometimes they don't say

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Speaker 1: much more than that. And I think we have to

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Speaker 1: come to a place where we are being even more

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Speaker 1: cognizant and even more proactive than we are now about

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Speaker 1: making sure we have a diversity of voices, you know, demographically,

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Speaker 1: socio economically, racially, geographically, all of those things, because that

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Speaker 1: is really important to understand how as many different kinds

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Speaker 1: of people in the world. But I don't think, UM,

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Speaker 1: we should be judging what is said by um the classification,

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Speaker 1: the designation, that taxonomy, whatever of who is saying it,

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Speaker 1: independent of what argument they're making. I mean, there are

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Speaker 1: privileged white people who have served in politics, who have

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Speaker 1: done some of the most trailblazing social justice things, because

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Speaker 1: that's that's who they are character a lotically, and there

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Speaker 1: are some people from backgrounds of much less privilege, UM

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Speaker 1: and people who are not white, who I would say

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Speaker 1: in terms of the policies they advocate, what they had

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Speaker 1: to the public square are not serving the cause of

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Speaker 1: social justice. So you can't judge the quality of someone's

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Speaker 1: contribution or the relevance of their contribution based merely on

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Speaker 1: gender or gender orientation or sexual orientation, or skin color

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. That was the point of that

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Speaker 1: tongue in chief thing, because if if Brian had continued

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Speaker 1: reading it then said, but wait a second, Now you've

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Speaker 1: dismissed me. Now let me tell you something else. And

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Speaker 1: who grew up in an era when you had to

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Speaker 1: be very, very nervous about this, So now you're thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: he can be sensitized to oppression. The thing is I

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Speaker 1: could be a good voice on issues of oppression or

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Speaker 1: a bad voice on issues of oppression, having nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with whether I've ever been oppressed. I guess the

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Speaker 1: big question is have we become so restrictive in terms

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Speaker 1: of who can not only talk about said subject, but

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Speaker 1: who can write about it, Who can be the creative

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Speaker 1: force behind anything that deals with a particular group. I

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Speaker 1: interviewed Laura Moriarty, who wrote a young adult novel about Muslims.

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Speaker 1: She was worried about the Islamophobia. She saw surfacing in

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Speaker 1: the two thousand sixteen election and wrote a novel about it.

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Speaker 1: She had too Muslim friends read it. She had a

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Speaker 1: couple of sensitivity readers, and the Muslim community not the

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Speaker 1: entire I know, I know not to generalize, but some

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Speaker 1: people were very upset that it was a white savior

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Speaker 1: narrative and that a Muslim wasn't writing about this. And

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Speaker 1: it seems to me increasingly, Frank, we're hearing that and

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Speaker 1: her fears white people will only be able to white

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Speaker 1: about white people. On the other hand, you talked to

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Speaker 1: people from marginalized communities and they feel they have been

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Speaker 1: kept out. Now the gate has been closed to them,

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Speaker 1: and opportunities have not been available to them in a

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Speaker 1: whole host of professions and arenas. And they're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: this sucks because why should a white person have to

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Speaker 1: write about this experience? And I understand both sides totally.

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Speaker 1: This is this is complicated stuff. I mean, both of

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Speaker 1: those things are true. I want to hear more voices.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear more different kinds of voices. That

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Speaker 1: is how I learn more about the world. That is

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Speaker 1: how you learn more about the word. That is the world.

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Speaker 1: That is how we all learn more about each other.

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Speaker 1: That is how we help talk to each other. UM.

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Speaker 1: So that goes without saying um. And if you just

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Speaker 1: assume a white person can illuminate the truth of everything

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Speaker 1: and you never concern yourself with the lack of diversity

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Speaker 1: of voices, you are oppressing people. You're leaving people out

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Speaker 1: of the conversation. But you're also doing the truth and

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Speaker 1: the ideal situation a disservice. I mean, it's bad on

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Speaker 1: every level. It goes too far though, and it's counterproductive

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Speaker 1: in another way to say a white person should never

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Speaker 1: write from X perspective or a black person should ever

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Speaker 1: write a white person. One of the things that fiction

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Speaker 1: certainly does, but I think that journalism does too. Is

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Speaker 1: it traffics and encourages empathy. And what is empathy but

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Speaker 1: the effort to see and the ability to see the

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Speaker 1: world through another person's eyes. Um. I think if you

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Speaker 1: say X person can never understand or write why person

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Speaker 1: because they're not in that group, you're saying empathy is impossible,

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Speaker 1: and you're discouraging the sorts of connections that we really

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Speaker 1: want to make. So this is complicated because you have

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge that white people have commanded a disproportionate amount

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Speaker 1: of the stage and the front of the stage, and

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Speaker 1: you need to make sure you push back against that,

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Speaker 1: and you need to make sure that's not no longer.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure the best way to do that

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Speaker 1: is to say you cannot right outside your race or gender.

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Speaker 1: But how do we deal with moving beyond empathy to

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Speaker 1: real understanding? So you don't know what it is, nor

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Speaker 1: do I to be treated differently by the police because

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Speaker 1: you're black, or to be profiled and an airport because

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Speaker 1: you're Muslim. I mean, you can take the position that

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Speaker 1: these things are terrible and that we're sympathetic and that

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Speaker 1: we wish that they didn't happen. But how should white writers, commentators, politicians,

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Speaker 1: sis kind of confront their own lack of experience on

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Speaker 1: these issues. Well, journalistically, the way we always have interview people,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that's what we do. We enter,

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Speaker 1: We interview people who have um who are the products

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Speaker 1: of situations and experiences that we can understand. And then

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Speaker 1: what we do as human beings as we go into

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Speaker 1: our own trove of experiences and all that we go

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Speaker 1: into our own ability to kind of imagine beyond ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We then take that information um and then we understand better,

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Speaker 1: if not perfectly, what's been going on. You can certainly

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Speaker 1: articulate if you inform yourself, if you do some of

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Speaker 1: that journalism, you can certainly articulate the injustice of it.

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Speaker 1: And you can certainly mold some of the solutions without

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Speaker 1: having gone through it. And it's important that you can

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Speaker 1: do that because most of our lawmakers haven't gone through

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Speaker 1: because most of them are white and most of them

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Speaker 1: have come from privilege. Hopefully that will continue to change.

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Speaker 1: I mean that is changing slowly, and I think it

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Speaker 1: will continue to change, and it must. I sympathize with

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Speaker 1: college students when Richard Spencer gets invited to speak at

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Speaker 1: a university. Yes, white nationalists, I would call him, and

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Speaker 1: maybe white supremacist. I think neo Nazi work. Neo Nazi.

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Speaker 1: He's a bad guy, yes, And when college students really

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Speaker 1: get upset that he's coming there, they do something called

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Speaker 1: no platforming. They'll they'll basically shout him down so he

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Speaker 1: can't speak. I guess the question is hate speech free speech?

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Speaker 1: Should it be kind of like an open invitation even

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Speaker 1: if you're a neo Nazi to come and speak at

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Speaker 1: these campuses. I don't think so. I'm not a I'm

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Speaker 1: not an absolutist. I don't know what the terminology is

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Speaker 1: like a free speech. I don't I don't go that far. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a world of difference though, between Richard

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Speaker 1: Spencer and Charles Murray, who was the you know who

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Speaker 1: prompted all that stuff at well, yeah, but he wasn't

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Speaker 1: even going there to talk about the middle at middle

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Speaker 1: at middle of there. He was going there to talk

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Speaker 1: about um work he's done. Subsequently, and fascinatingly, after of

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Speaker 1: that all happened, the Times did something brilliant. It was

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Speaker 1: just online. I think, I don't know who did well.

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Speaker 1: It's such a big organization. I can take credit for nothing, No,

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Speaker 1: really for nothing, but they did something. Someone in the

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Speaker 1: online opinion universe did something brilliant where they boiled down

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Speaker 1: the talking points that Charles Murray was going to make

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Speaker 1: in that speech, most of them I think from his

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Speaker 1: bookcoming a Part I think I have that right, which

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Speaker 1: is on white working class um. And they asked a

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Speaker 1: bunch of academics to place the sentiments of his on

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Speaker 1: the political spectrum from left to right, like is the

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Speaker 1: center is the center left if it's center right, And

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Speaker 1: I believe most people placed him dead in the center

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Speaker 1: or a little bit center left. This was what he

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Speaker 1: was going to speak about at Middlebury, so he was

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Speaker 1: no platformed. But if anyone had bothered to really listen

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Speaker 1: to him, they would not have heard something beyond the

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Speaker 1: pale at all, and they might have heard an interesting lecture.

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Speaker 1: But there was a decision made about who he was

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Speaker 1: as a person based on the Bell curve. But I

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Speaker 1: remember listening to the Chance and they were saying, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, racist, sexist, homophobic, go away. Um. The complaint

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Speaker 1: about the Bell curve was was that it was racist,

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Speaker 1: but I mean it was a key. Was all of

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Speaker 1: these terrible things encoded because someone had just decided to

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Speaker 1: put that mantle on him when he was coming to

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Speaker 1: talk about some ideas, some important ideas that are not

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Speaker 1: even far to the right. And you think that that

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Speaker 1: people could have challenged him in a more appropriate way.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was just a ship show at Middlebury

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Speaker 1: when he came. On the other hand, I interviewed a

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Speaker 1: student at the University of Michigan who was getting his

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Speaker 1: PhD who protested went and Charles Murray invited him on stage,

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Speaker 1: and his argument, Frank, is that Charles Murray's philosophy and

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Speaker 1: the Bell Curve itself has been used. In fact, I

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Speaker 1: know it has because when I talked to Jason Kessler

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Speaker 1: in Charlottesville before the quote unquote Unite the Right rally,

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Speaker 1: he used some of Charles Murray saying, philosophy, it's been

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Speaker 1: used to base sickly buttress this incredible racist vitriol and

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Speaker 1: white supremacy. So so I can understand that too. But

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Speaker 1: what would you disinvite him then, Katie? Would I disinvite him?

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Speaker 1: I don't think I would. I would like to have

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Speaker 1: some debate him. How about what you just said, how

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Speaker 1: about some student um actually kind of getting that deeply

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Speaker 1: engaged in the material, educating himself for herself on all

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Speaker 1: of that, and standing up during the quick Q and

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Speaker 1: a period and I'm pretty sure there was a scheduled

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Speaker 1: Q and a period and saying the things you lay

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Speaker 1: out in the Bell Curve are not only um bitterly

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Speaker 1: and wildly when widely disputed and in many ways discredited,

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Speaker 1: but they have become the foundation for some of the

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Speaker 1: most horrible thinking and some of the most horrible proposal.

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Speaker 1: How do you feel about that? And how do you

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Speaker 1: defend that? That would have been fascinating. I think so

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Speaker 1: much good would have come out of that discussion. But

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Speaker 1: that discussion was never had because they shouted down so

429
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: that he couldn't speak. Middlebury, there are many ways you

430
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 1: can handle that. First of all, Middlebury, mind you, is

431
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: very sensitive to the way this might play out. They

432
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: were having Charles Murray not just kind of give, you know,

433
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: an unchallenged speech. They were having somebody questions question A

434
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: liberal professor questioned him on stage. He was going to

435
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: be answering questions if I have this correctly and if

436
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: I if I don't forgive me by students. You could

437
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: have come. You could have come with signs. You could

438
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 1: have done what has been done at some speeches like this.

439
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: You could have come to the speech and turned your

440
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: back while he was speaking, without still allowing him to

441
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: say what he was going to say, allowing him to

442
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: answer what I presume would have been tough questions from

443
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: the professor. That's all different and a hell of a

444
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: lot more civilized than shouting someone down. Shouting someone down

445
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: says we are not living in and promoting an arena

446
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 1: of debate, and we're not interested in the battle of ideas.

447
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,239
Speaker 1: We're interested in telling you how our universe should be

448
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: purified and purged, and you don't belong. It's time to

449
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll be back with or Frank

450
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: Bruney right after this. And now back to our conversation

451
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: with Frank Bruney. Frank, I want to ask you about

452
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: another definition of political correctness, which is the one that

453
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: President Trump uses, and in my view, he basically applies

454
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 1: the term as a cover for racially charged, if not racist,

455
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: views that it's okay to say anything if you can

456
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 1: dismiss criticism or controversy around it as mere political correctness.

457
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: And I'm curious what you think about that. It's one

458
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: of the reasons why I think we have to retire

459
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: the term, you know, because I think it has been

460
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 1: co opted in misused. I think we all know President

461
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: Trump in that regardless being hideously cynical and opportunistic, and

462
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: he's just it's just, I mean, we know the answer

463
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: to that. He believes that if you simply kind of

464
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 1: say that person is being victimized by the sanitized type

465
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: of conversation we're all supposed to have that, then all

466
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: of these sorts of sentiments, in any sorts of remarks,

467
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: all fit in the same basket. And that's not the case.

468
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 1: That's not the case at all. We have actually a

469
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: clip of President Trump or then candidate Trump, speaking on

470
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: Face the Nation in December of two thousand fifteen. Let's

471
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: take a listen to that if we could. So, everybody

472
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: wants to be politically correct, and that's part of the

473
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: problem that we have with our country. Have people been

474
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: too politically correct with Muslims in America? I think so.

475
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: I think so, and with maybe other things too, but

476
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 1: I think certainly so. And as you know, I came

477
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: out with I want vigilance. I want real vigilance, and

478
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 1: whether it's mosques or whatever, it has to be. What's

479
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: your reaction to that conversation That was three years ago?

480
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: And hate crimes against Muslims have risen dramatically, And of

481
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 1: course he's talked about a Muslim registry. He's obviously the

482
00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: travel ban with majority Muslim countries. To what end as

483
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: President Trump using this term to ignite the fears and

484
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: anger of his base, Well, I think to a large extent,

485
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: and I think what he's jumbling is some some less heated,

486
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: less provocative questions about our conversation that that people the

487
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: conservatives or even people in the center have asked, he's

488
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: jumbling that together with permission for people to engage an

489
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: actual hate speech. So you mean, well, what I mean

490
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: is like when he's talking about political correctness and and

491
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: and Islam and terror, and he's referring to all there

492
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: are people like Bill Maher who have said, we're not

493
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: talking honestly enough about certain things that seem to be

494
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: encouraged among certain factions of Muslims. And there are people

495
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: who have said, I mean, Barack Obama battle with us

496
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: all the time. There are people who said that if

497
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: you if you purge the word Islam or Muslim from

498
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: some of the discussions of some of the kinds of

499
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: terrorism we're seeing, you're not actually having an honest debate

500
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: about what's giving rise to it. So there are plenty

501
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: of people who would say that's political correctness run a monk,

502
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: because we can't have an honest debate. Um, And I'm

503
00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: just telling you what people would say, we can't have

504
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: an honest debate, and we can't like actually kind of

505
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: bring in everything that needs to be bringing because we're

506
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: so afraid of offending. Um, it is not political correctness

507
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: or I mean, that's very different from saying that those

508
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: marchers in Charlottesville we're channing things that are absolutely hateful

509
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: and and unconscionable and impermissible. And he's jumbling all of

510
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: that together. He's saying, I mean, I'm saying, Katie, and

511
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: that's it's a really dangerous thing, and it's a really

512
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 1: cynical thing. And I think he knows what he's doing,

513
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: is doing it deliberately. Bill Maher and other comedians, Frank

514
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: a number of them. I think Jerry Seinfeld, Chris Rock

515
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 1: are among those who just don't want to perform on

516
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: college campuses anymore. And that brings me to another comedian.

517
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: And this may be slightly dated by the time our

518
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 1: podcast airs, but I have to ask you about Michelle

519
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 1: Wolf and her performance of the White House Correspondence Dinner. Um,

520
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: what did you think of it? And I just it's

521
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: been fascinating for me to read the reactions by Maggie

522
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,640
Speaker 1: Habrman was very dismissive of her and then got attacked yes,

523
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: and then of course Mika Brzynski was very upset with her,

524
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 1: and then Jimmy Kimmel and other comedians came to her defense.

525
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: What did you think of that? I think so many

526
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: things about that that are disconnected, one of which is

527
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: I think the amount of attention we're lavishing on this

528
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: is an example of why so many Americans see the

529
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: media is so disconnected from their lives. A. Um, this

530
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: is this is about a set of remarks from a

531
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: comedian at a fancy, self indulgent, self celebratory dinner. You know,

532
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: let's not let's not get carried away. Um. I also

533
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: think that the White House correspond Association dinners should be

534
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: retired forevermore because it exists primarily not as some touchy

535
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: feely bipartisan can't we all get along? It exists. It

536
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: exists as a kind of exercise of vanity. Um. And

537
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: it is a New York Times no longer wins. Well yeah,

538
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: and by the way, and I'm not saying this because

539
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: I think The New York Times did. I mean, I

540
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: think we made the right decision. I think it was

541
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: back in two thousand eight, and before then I went,

542
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: I haven't been back. Sense. Um, I don't know. Sometimes

543
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: employees go as other people's guests. I think, but we

544
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: don't buy tables there, we don't do anything like that. Um.

545
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: I think that's one of those situations where we made

546
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: the right call, because I think it has become a

547
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: sort of you know, Oscar's manque for journalists. You know. Um,

548
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: I don't think anything noble is being accomplished by that dinner. Um.

549
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: I think it is an exercise and self indulgence, and

550
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: this sort of thing is bound to happen. I've never

551
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: understood why a centerpiece of this dinner was a comedian

552
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: who more often than not is bound to do some

553
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: offensive stuff standing up there and ridiculing the people in

554
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: the room. I'm not sure what the message I mean,

555
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: is that supposed to communicate a noble self effacement in

556
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: this crowd or you know, I mean it's at a

557
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: at a very a very great risk. Um. On the

558
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: other hand, at a time when journalism is being so

559
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: kind of trashed by the president, the First Amendment kind

560
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: of questioned by the administration, fake news, the moniker. Just

561
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: do you think the w h C A is the

562
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: answer to that? No, not necessary there just what But

563
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: I guess the rest of my question was or statement

564
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: was at a time when these are being so challenged.

565
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: Is it a time for solidarity and for members of

566
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: the press to say, Hey, we believe in a search

567
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: for truth and we think that we're a really important

568
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: part of a democracy. I don't know. I don't, yes,

569
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: And I mean, I'm just I'm just giving the opposite

570
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: point of view. Well, but but I don't think that

571
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: point of view has anything to do with the actual

572
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: fact and details and mechanics of the White House Correspondence

573
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: Association dinner. I mean that dinner brings together right there

574
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: on the days the very people who are trashing us,

575
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, Sarah, how could be Sanders, Kelly and Conway.

576
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: So how does that dinner represent a solidarity act in

577
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: defense of our utility to our essential role in democracy?

578
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: That dinner is something is a bit of frippery entirely

579
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: to the side of that. Let's talk about this now,

580
00:30:53,480 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: penchant for evaluating past works through a modern a lens

581
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: or sensibility. Most recently, Molly Ringwald wrote in The New

582
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: York Or a piece about sixteen Candles and other John

583
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: Hughes movies. I Guess the Breakfast Club, Breakfast Club, and

584
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: and sort of talked about some of the themes and

585
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: some of the characters and some of the dialogue in

586
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: those films, and uh, you know, she in retrospects thinks

587
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: they were offensive. What say you, Frank Bernie. I think

588
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: everything that she pointed out in those films was offensive

589
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: and that was interesting. Um. And she's right to look

590
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: back and say that those weren't necessarily constructive or ideal situations.

591
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: But I found myself a little heartsick at the selectiveness

592
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: of the reading, because you can also go back and

593
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: look at those movies if you're just in a different spirit,

594
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: and see a hell of a lot of good. I

595
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: read that whole Molly Ringwald thing. I was riveted by it.

596
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: Smack in the middle was the passage to me that

597
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: was the most interesting. She talks about a black gay

598
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: friend of hers who she was sort of filling him

599
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: in on her processes on how bad she felt. And

600
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: I may be misrepresenting the essay a little bit, but

601
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: I think I'm close to the mark. It's not right

602
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 1: in front of me. And I read it a week

603
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: ago or two weeks ago. Um. And she talks about

604
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: her concern about movie stuff whatever. And he says to

605
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: Molly Ringwald, he says, as as a black gay man,

606
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: your movies saved my life. And she's puzzled by that

607
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: because she's thinking, there weren't there wasn't racial diversity in

608
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: the movies. There was the horrible caricature of the Asian

609
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: American character and I think that was sixteen candles, and

610
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: so she's sort of surprised. But what he's what he

611
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: kind of says to her, And you know immediately, if

612
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: you if you're if you're familiar with the movies, is

613
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: that so many of those movies were portraits of outsiders

614
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: and people who were shoved by the in crowd to

615
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: the margins, figuring out how to forge a separate piece,

616
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: how to find dignity, how to navigate the world. And

617
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: even if that character was fair skinned, red haired Molly, heterosexual,

618
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: Molly Ringwald this black game and saw himself in that

619
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: character and took great heart from it and took inspiration

620
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: and as he says to Molly, your movies saved my life.

621
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: Now let's go back to what we were talking about before,

622
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: about kind of person in one group right as another person.

623
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: The things we're talking about, empathy, you could Shakespeare lives

624
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: to this day, not because he provided us, you know,

625
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: with a perfect array of diversity and all that. But

626
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: because the human conditions, the human strivings, the human cruelty,

627
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: is the human foibles that he wrote about. Those transcend

628
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: all distinctions of gender and class and race. Those are

629
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: universal things. And what this friend of Molly's was saying

630
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: to him is, you may now be concerned about some

631
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: of these details of those movies, and that's a noble concern,

632
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: But they were so universal, um in what they were

633
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: capturing and in their consequence that they saved my life.

634
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: I thought that was just such an important passage that

635
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: we should not let go of easily. Hold that thought.

636
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: We're going to applause for a moment because we want

637
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: to hear from those of you who see things a

638
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: bit differently than Frank does. Here's what some of you

639
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: had to say. Hello there. I am Jeffrey Marsh. I

640
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: am an activist and an author and a non binary

641
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: and I travel around the country helping churches and corporations

642
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: in schools make respectful spaces for LGBTQ folk, and PC

643
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: spaces or so called safe spaces, are sometimes the only

644
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: spaces where people like me find respect and has PC

645
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: culture gone too far is a really great question, and

646
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: I think enough the great question is why in the

647
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: world do some human beings need to be strongly encouraged

648
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: to see the full humanity and other human beings and

649
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: show kindness and respect. Thank you, Hey, this is this

650
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: just leaving my thoughts on PC culture having recently graduated

651
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: from a super liberal research university. I think that PC

652
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: culture is a sign that we are progressing as a

653
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: society and we are paying attention to how we could

654
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: have been hurtful to other perspectives in the past. So

655
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: I think it is something good, and it's something that

656
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 1: needs to continue, and it's a way to make people

657
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: feel more comfortable in the society that we live in,

658
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: and we're fare that being said, I often did feel

659
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: at college, specifically that PC culture sometimes prevented us from

660
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: haveing a fair debate for the fear that I think

661
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: that we might just agree with the other side. And

662
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: I think it's important to keep to make sure that

663
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: PC culture isn't used to stiful discourse. Thanks thank you

664
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: to everyone who called in. Clearly there's more than one

665
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: way to look at these issues. And now back to

666
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: our conversation with Frank two other terms, frank, have become

667
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: hot button issues, and I deal with it in my

668
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: hour on which I called the Age of Outrage. One

669
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: is cultural appropriation and the other is white privilege. When

670
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: does cultural appreciation become cultural appropriation? And how do you

671
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: feel about that conversation that's going on, whether it's on

672
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: fashion runways or celebrity magazines or musical performers like Bruno Mars.

673
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk about this right now. Yeah,

674
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: I think that's another one of those conversations where people

675
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: tend to go to extremes. You know, we should never

676
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: the whole idea of cultural appropriation is ridiculous, as one

677
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: camp you know, another camp you know, says everything is

678
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: a cultural appropriation. Um. I think this is another tough

679
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: one where there are many many ways, um to show

680
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: cultural appreciation that people in one extreme call cultural appropriation.

681
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: And I think they're being a little bit too quick

682
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: to take offense. And I think that, um, there's sort

683
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: of being a little bit blind to the way the

684
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: world invariably works. I think the real complaint here goes

685
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: back to who's been shut out and and and so

686
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: I have I have no problem with I'm going to

687
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: use the phrase because that's what we're using. But I

688
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,959
Speaker 1: don't like. I have no problem with cultural appropriation because

689
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: I think it's often um a sign of a very

690
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: important integration and it's a sign of respect. I do

691
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: have a problem when the only people who get to

692
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: showcase and benefit from the distinctive fruits of a culture

693
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 1: are the outside of that culture. And I think that's

694
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: the real problem and the real tension. And sometimes the

695
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: cultural appropriation argument starts to be about the things and

696
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: forgets that what really is an issue here, what's at

697
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: the root of it. This is the group's excluded from

698
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: recognition and from benefiting from the things that they in

699
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: fact brought into the world. I interviewed Elaine welter Roth,

700
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: the former editor of teen Vogue, and she told said

701
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: something that really made me think. She talked about minstrel shows,

702
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: and we should add she as an African American woman, yes,

703
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: and she she was talking about how how that was

704
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: stealing a culture and mocking a culture. It was mocking

705
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: a culture. And you know clearly and that that was

706
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: sort of one of the primary examples of early cultural appropriation.

707
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: Of course, has been going on forever in terms of

708
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: if you look at fashion and all kinds of things.

709
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: But but I don't even think cultural appropriation is even

710
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: the right word for that, because that's something much different.

711
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: It's mockery, it's caricature. I mean, it's designed to make

712
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: fun of. And so how you relate that to say,

713
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: the debate on some campuses over hoop ear rings. You know,

714
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: a white girl wearing a big hoop ear ring sometimes

715
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: is put in a defensive crouch about cultural appropriation. She's

716
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: not mocking or making a caricature of a culture that

717
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: you had first worn an ear ring like that. She's

718
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: actually paying a kind of compliment. Now we can talk

719
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: further about whether it's an appropriate compliment. Um, But I mean,

720
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: I don't see a problem with it. But that's nothing

721
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: like black face, is right, I mean, I know, I

722
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: think you're right. And you know, Mark Jacobs was criticized

723
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: because he put some of his models in dreadlocks one season,

724
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: and he later put them in turbans, and people were

725
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: offended by the fact that he didn't seem to include

726
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: the Muslim community, for example, in wearing sort of head

727
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: scarves or turbans. It was primarily turbans, if I recall,

728
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: so you know to me, I said to some of

729
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: the folks I interviewed, isn't that in a way an

730
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: homage to that culture? But I think you hit the

731
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: nail on the head, Frank when you mentioned the people

732
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: who have been excluded from the table, that have not

733
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: been brought in on the conversation, who are not benefiting

734
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: financially or otherwise from the use of any given culture. Yeah. Well,

735
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know about that fashion show, but

736
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: let's say you did a fashion show where you were

737
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: putting your models in a certain kind of hairstyle or

738
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: head dress or whatever, and what you your rationale was,

739
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: I think this is beautiful. I think this is part

740
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: of the beautiful tapestry of humanity. But not a single

741
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 1: one of those models belongs to the cultural group, the

742
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: ethnic group from which you're taking. Well, that's a problem

743
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: with that, because it's like, if you think this is

744
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: so beautiful, and if this is a gesture and gesture

745
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 1: of inclusion, where the hell's the inclusion. That's where African

746
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: Americans feel, like, why is it only beautiful when white

747
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,439
Speaker 1: people start donning it? You know? Why are corn rows

748
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: only great when Miley Cyrus wears them? Or I think

749
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: they were. I think they were always great, and you know,

750
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean that they're feeling. It's

751
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: like you're robbing us of our identity. You're benefiting from

752
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: it financially and otherwise. And you know, where was your

753
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: appreciation for this look when it was being warned by

754
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: African American women. It's just so interesting. The whole thing

755
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: is very and every and every single situation is a

756
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: little bit different because in all cases, like you know,

757
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: is it a homage or is it a trivialization. Sometimes

758
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 1: that's an exploitation. Sometimes that's in the eye and the beholder.

759
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's pretty clear. And so one of the problems

760
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: with the cultural appropriation debate is we are mashing together

761
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,439
Speaker 1: a lot of different situations for which your answer would

762
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: be very different about is this trivializing, is this exploitation,

763
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: is this homage, etcetera. Yeah, Frank, this may be a

764
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: bit of a leap from political correctness, But before you go,

765
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask whether you're concerned about a backlash

766
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: to another movement, which is me too. And ever again,

767
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: where there seems to be a very quick jump from

768
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: the allegation to the career death penalty, and are you

769
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: concerned that we've become extreme on this issue as well?

770
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: You know, I I have a hard time talking about

771
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: this one because again I'm I'm a man, you know.

772
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I I certainly have thoughts about this, but

773
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 1: I have not been I'm not a woman who has

774
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: worked in a workplace as most of my female friends

775
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: have where they have felt, you know, some form of

776
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: sexual harassment or worse. So I really in this in

777
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: this one, I don't think I'm the most appropriate voice. Um,

778
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: does it feel like there are some situations where things

779
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: are happening very quickly in terms of judgment and in

780
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: terms of punishment. Sure, But I've got to say when

781
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 1: I take several steps back and I think about what

782
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 1: has happened over the last year and what has been accomplished, well,

783
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 1: we have not gotten it perfect. I think we've made

784
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: a leap forward as a country. And I think that

785
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: when we're talking about this, certainly a year from now

786
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: and this is all settled down a bit, I think

787
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: we're all going to agree that what we've gone through

788
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: in this period in terms of making sure the workplace

789
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: is respectful to women and making sure they have equal

790
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: opportunity in making sure we're safeguarding a certain you know,

791
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: human dignity. I think we're going to agree that this

792
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: was a good period um and that we made a

793
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: very very important advance for whatever small things were done

794
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: wrong on the margins, I hope. So. I think the

795
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: devil will be in the details and the policy changes

796
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: that are ushered in as a result of this sort

797
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: of reckoning. If you will, I wanted to ask you,

798
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: I took a privilege walk at Columbia Privilege. What a

799
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: privileged walk have you heard of that? I don't know

800
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: the privilege walking. So basically, you get with a bunch

801
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: of different people. I think there might have been, gosh,

802
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: ten or twelve people of all different backgrounds, races, ethnicities,

803
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: and you're asked seventeen questions about your life experiences and

804
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: you take a step forward or take us up backwards

805
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: depending on your answer to the question. And things like

806
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: your parents came here of their own free will, came

807
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: to this country, or you can find a band aid

808
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: to match the color of your skin, your parents told

809
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: you you could do anything you you know, one parent

810
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: has been fired. All these just different questions and you

811
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: take a walk, you close your eyes and then you

812
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 1: open your eyes and you see kind of where you are. Well,

813
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: I know it'll come as a shock to you, but

814
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: I was smack in the front of the group, and

815
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: we we really just sort of used it as an

816
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: opportunity to talk about white privilege, which I think is

817
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: a is a term that really rankles a lot of people.

818
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: And I noticed that there was a young woman sort

819
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 1: of in the middle of the group, and I said

820
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: to her, while I'm surprised you're there, and she said, well,

821
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 1: I'm from North Carolina, working class parents. My parents worked

822
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: nights and weekends, and whatever the answers were it she

823
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: ended up sort of in the middle. And one of

824
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: the young ladies said, this reminds me of trying to

825
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: explain white privilege to my parents. It doesn't mean you

826
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: haven't struggled just because you have white privilege. It just

827
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: means you have certain advantages. And I'm curious, like, why

828
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: does that rankle so many people, the term white privilege. Um,

829
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: I think it rankles some people for a bad reason.

830
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 1: I mean some people for reason that I don't find

831
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: much sympathy for. And then I think it rankles other

832
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 1: people for a reason that I do have some sympathy

833
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: for I think it rankles some people, and this is

834
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: the wrong on something reason, just because they don't want

835
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: to be told or they don't want it suggested to

836
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 1: them that any facet of their achievement or life is

837
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: anything but entirely earned. You know, it's it's a matter

838
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 1: of kind of ego. You don't want anyone to say

839
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: that you you know, yes you occupy this professional station,

840
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: yes you have this lovely whatever, but you didn't really

841
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: get that that was for ordained by the circumstances, by

842
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: the way you. I don't think people want to hear that,

843
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: and that's something I think they do need to hear,

844
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: not that that's the sole thing, but that they need

845
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: to feel like they had a leg up. Right, So,

846
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: some people don't want to be told they had a

847
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: leg up because they want to believe wherever they got

848
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 1: was entirely, entirely of their own doing. So that's one

849
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: reason that rankles people, and that's the one I don't

850
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: have sympathy for it, because you absolutely need if you

851
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: want to be a truthful person, if you want to be,

852
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, a person on the right side of social

853
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: justice and awareness and all that you need to be

854
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: aware of how you ended up where you ended up.

855
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you had nothing to do with it,

856
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,880
Speaker 1: but you had advantages. It rankles other people for a

857
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 1: reason I'm more sympathetic to, which is they hear white

858
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,959
Speaker 1: privilege as something that is supposed to pivot them toward

859
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: an apology. They're supposed to apologize for the circumstances of

860
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: their life and birth as opposed to be aware of it. Well,

861
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: you know, when they asked me, Frank, how I felt

862
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: when I found myself in the front of the line,

863
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,919
Speaker 1: I said two words, lucky and guilty. Okay, Well, most

864
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: people don't want to feel guilty or apologetic. So white

865
00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: privilege as a tool for awareness, great white privilege as

866
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: a tool for apology gets a little bit more complicated. Um,

867
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: because a lot of people who hear that phrase, I

868
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: think I'm a good person. You know, I'm actually voting

869
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: in ways that I believe are going to make society

870
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 1: more just. I'm volunteering my time, choosing where to live

871
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: in some cases, um, you know, giving my money to

872
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: charity in ways that acknowledge, um, the unevenness of the world,

873
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: the inequality of opportunity, and are my effort to make

874
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 1: up for it. But if I'm doing all of that,

875
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 1: I can't unborn myself. I can't unchange the way I

876
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: grew up. So why are you making me feel like

877
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: I should apologize for it when through my awareness I

878
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: believe I am living in all those ways that are

879
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: in the service of a world of more equal opportunity.

880
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: Should I have not said guilty? No, that's your reality.

881
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: Honestly I feel guilty too, But because I I think

882
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 1: I would have ended up like you in the front

883
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: of the line, you know, I mean, really high up.

884
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: I mean, but you know, everything is complicated. I would

885
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: have ended up really far up. My father grew up

886
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: with no money, with parents who didn't speak the English language,

887
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: you know. So someone who looks at me and says

888
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: he grew up in a suburban I mean my my

889
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: awareness and my consciousness is a little bit more nuanced

890
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: than that, because I do not have to look far

891
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: at all into my past to see an entirely different world.

892
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that I still wouldn't end up

893
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 1: at the front of that walk of privilege line like you, Katie.

894
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 1: But we're all much more complicated, and let's you know,

895
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 1: let's be generous in our judgments of each other. I

896
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: agree allelujah to being generous in our judgments. But how

897
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: else can we make this a little less fraught? How

898
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: do we get to a place where we're not at

899
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: each other's throats about this? How do we lower the

900
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: temperature and get rid of some of the divisiveness around

901
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: these issues. I think the way we do it is

902
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: when we meet somebody who doesn't immediately seem to be

903
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: or to think like us. First of all, don't immediately

904
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: move to hang various labels on them. Second of all,

905
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,760
Speaker 1: um to the extent that they do have different views,

906
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: ask yourself, ask them why they have those views, and

907
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: try to listen with some empathy, generosity, and with an

908
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: impulse toward common ground before you retreat to your separate

909
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: corners and begin tweeting at each other. I mean that

910
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 1: metaphorically more than literally. Everybody is so on the attack.

911
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: I think it just makes people recoil and dig in

912
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: their heels even more. I feel like the desire and

913
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 1: the quest for common ground has taken a back seat

914
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: to this sort of desire to shout as loudly as

915
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: you can, or to come up with the snarkiest, most

916
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 1: clever put down right. Um, you know, look at it.

917
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 1: The you know, the Republican Democrat pendulum of power keeps

918
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: swinging back and forth, and one group gets into power

919
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: and just wants to quash the other group, and the

920
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 1: other group gets into power and wants to quash that group.

921
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: And you know, at some point, you know, we've got

922
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: to stop letting the perfect be the enemy. They're good,

923
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: and we've got to, um, we got to develop a

924
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: new respect for the concept of compromise, and we've got

925
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: to develop a new appreciation for common ground. I don't

926
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 1: know if you watch Homeland, but the season finale was

927
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 1: last night, and the character of the President who don't

928
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: tell me spoiler alert, Are you going to ruin it

929
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: for people? No? I'm not, But I'm going to tell

930
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: you this. I'm gonna tell you because I won't tell

931
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: you the context or the end of it, but I

932
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: will tell you that she gives a speech about precisely

933
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: this and about how we are being very shoddy, great

934
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: ungrateful caretakers of our democracy by dint of our lack

935
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 1: of interest in common ground. And it was it was

936
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 1: an interesting and I think extraordinarily Germaine speech. And I've

937
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: given nothing away about it the way it ends, and

938
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: you just know that she's going to give a speech.

939
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: That's it. Thank you, Frank, Frank, Bernie, thank you Frank

940
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: for coming in. And I always love talking to you.

941
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: And it's these things are kind of I don't know

942
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: even the way to describe it. When you're kind of

943
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: trying to unpack these complicated issues, and people bring so

944
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: much baggage and personal variance to the table. Sometimes you

945
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 1: have to let that go to right and that's not easy.

946
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: I agree, and I thank you because I think you've

947
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: allowed us to have a conversation about these things that

948
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: was nuanced and that and that did justice to the

949
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: fact that there is no right wrong, you know, cultural

950
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: appropriation always good, always bad. These are these are really

951
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: kind of chewy, sticky, complicated matters, and um, I wish

952
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: more people would think through them without just taking an

953
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: instant position that they think is the position of their tribe.

954
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: That does it for us today and actually that does

955
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: it for our podcast episodes delving into the topics I

956
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: covered in my series America Inside Out on Nacio, also

957
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 1: on Facebook, also on YouTube, also on Hulu. I hope

958
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: you enjoyed digging into these thorny issues with me and Brian. Well.

959
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: I certainly learned a lot, and I know that's why

960
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: we're here, just so I can learn a lot anyway.

961
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: Next that's my goal and like to teach you, young man.

962
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,720
Speaker 1: Next week, very excited, we'll be talking with the actress

963
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: Julianna mark Ellis. I'm a big fan from Ere to

964
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: The Good Wife. Julianna has made a big mark on

965
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 1: the small screen. Do you like what I did there, Katie?

966
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: Big mark small screen? Very clever, Brian, very clever. What

967
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: questions do you all have for her? Leave us a

968
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 1: message at nine to nine to two four six three seven,

969
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 1: or as always, you can send us an email at

970
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,439
Speaker 1: comments at currect podcast dot com. As usual, our thanks

971
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: to our team at Stitcher. Producer Gianna Palmer, assistant producer

972
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: Nora Richie, who, by the way, has an incredible voice. Nora,

973
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: you knocked my socks off. She's an incredible singer, and

974
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: you're the one who should be singing on this show,

975
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: not me. Nora. Also audio engineer Jared O'Connell. I'm not sure, Jared,

976
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 1: if you sing, but if you want to Okay, I

977
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: guess not. He's shaking his head. Special thanks today to

978
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: Josh Richmond in l A and my team at Katie

979
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: Correct Media, Alisan Bresnick, Betha Moz and Emily Beena. You

980
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: can find Katie on social media under Katie CURRK Big

981
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 1: Surprise I tweet from the hand Goldsmith B. Don't forget

982
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 1: to subscribe to this podcast. You'll get our episodes fresh

983
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: off the presses every week and we'd love a review

984
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 1: from you on Apple Podcasts if you feel so moved.

985
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: Thank you as always for listening. And since I mentioned

986
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: Nora Richie and her singing ability, She's gonna sing us

987
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: off the air today. Hit it Nora, trusted Heart. She

988
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: tells us the favors Ben was strong stories of love.

989
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 1: We feel it in our guts. We have been here before,

990
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: all action history, cheerful to see and tell it again.

991
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: Tell Mamma Joe all our history a mental and tell

992
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: it again, telling one all the time. My mind tells

993
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: our story of mental be in her bone