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Speaker 1: Quality times, but Joseph's gotten more for the general public.

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Speaker 1: I think that what defines my profession. The first thing

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Speaker 1: that pops onto the radar is not necessarily injuries. You know,

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Speaker 1: horrible trauma, sadness, grief, all of those sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: The one question that people seem to ask me all

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Speaker 1: the time is how is it that you deal with

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Speaker 1: being around decomposing human remains. That's not necessarily a one

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Speaker 1: size fits all question. It is something that I learned

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Speaker 1: to do over a protracted period of time. Now, don't

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Speaker 1: misunderstand me. I never got completely used to it. I

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Speaker 1: think that all of you out there would probably think

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Speaker 1: that I was an absolute lunatic if I said that

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Speaker 1: I had. However, you do build up somewhat of a

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Speaker 1: callous to it after a time. But today we're going

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Speaker 1: to discuss human decomposition and I'm going to kind of

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Speaker 1: give you an insight from my perspective of death investigation.

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Speaker 1: So hold on to your hats, because classes in with

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Speaker 1: Professor Morgan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body

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Speaker 1: Backs Brother Dave. Good to be back with you, man.

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Speaker 1: I've been on my world tour man all over Europe,

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Speaker 1: and hitting spots and Paris and Amsterdam and Liverpool.

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Speaker 2: I was going to ask you if you met any Liverpudlians.

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Speaker 1: I did you know? Yeah, I did meet a few

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Speaker 1: liver Pudlians. Pudlians, Puddlians, Poodlians.

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Speaker 3: You know the thing Boundary called the Beatles because they

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Speaker 3: complete beatles and yeah, yeah, Jerry and the Pacemakers, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: called them Liverpoodlians.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And let's see who else was it was it

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Speaker 1: Herman and the Hermits at say.

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Speaker 2: Peter across the Mersey. Who was that? That was not

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Speaker 2: Peter Noon in the Herman's Hermits.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 2: Across the Makers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually sat out and drank a pint next

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Speaker 1: to the Mersey River out there with the beautiful broad Kimmy,

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Speaker 1: and it was a glorious, glorious sunshiny day, gentle breeze

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Speaker 1: blowing in off the water. And when I say, and look,

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Speaker 1: we're we're back home in South It's like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what eighty percent humidity out there, dude. We had

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Speaker 1: to wear sweatshirts and that's in you know, we're we're

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Speaker 1: in June and so and they were saying, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: nice warm weather, I'm thinking, wow, but it was. It

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Speaker 1: was enjoyable, it was refreshing. I'm glad to be back

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Speaker 1: home and uh, certainly glad to be back with you,

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Speaker 1: brother Dave. I've missed being on the air with you,

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Speaker 1: and uh and uh, you know, spent time over in

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Speaker 1: Crime Con Crime Con UK in London. So that was

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Speaker 1: that was a blast, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that more another episode. But I thought, coming back, you know,

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Speaker 1: we continue our series of forensic education with your humble

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Speaker 1: host here and you know, try to go down this line.

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Speaker 2: But I got to tell you something.

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Speaker 3: We had a show today on Nancy Grace and we

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Speaker 3: were talking about the Holly Bobo case. And in this

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Speaker 3: discussion that Nancy and I were having, we were talking

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Speaker 3: about blood in the garage. Holly Bobo was a twenty

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Speaker 3: year old kidnapped from her own home in Tennessee by

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Speaker 3: a couple of ruffians and she was actually in her

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Speaker 3: garage carport getting ready to get into her car to

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Speaker 3: go to school seven forty five in the morning when

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Speaker 3: she was taken.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, And there.

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Speaker 3: Were two different spots of blood in the garage and

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Speaker 3: Nancy was asking what did that mean? And I thought,

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Speaker 3: I'm not the right guy to answer this, but I

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Speaker 3: do know because of Joe, you know, And so I

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Speaker 3: actually broke it all down and I said, well, a

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Speaker 3: forensic person would say, and I was like, this blood

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Speaker 3: droplet is different than this blood smear, right, And it

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Speaker 3: was really cool to be able to bring that to

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Speaker 3: the discussion because then you know, it means something. Everything

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Speaker 3: that you talk about on this show with regard to

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Speaker 3: crime and it's body bags, but it actually helps all

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Speaker 3: of us to have a better understanding of when the

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Speaker 3: crime happens, how does it get solved? Ultimately, you and

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Speaker 3: I talk about the victims every day and how do

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Speaker 3: you It's never about closure, but it is about finding

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Speaker 3: some resolution, some finality, and finding the justice that that

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Speaker 3: person and their family deserves. And it all comes together forensically.

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Speaker 3: You have to prove it. You know, you can actually

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Speaker 3: convict a person of murder without ever having a dead bos.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you can. Yeah. The blood. The blood. The blood

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Speaker 1: for instance, many times it is representative of the corpus delecti,

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Speaker 1: which means the body of the case. And so, and

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Speaker 1: I think I've said this before, the more blood you have,

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Speaker 1: and uh, scientists love to use the term copious always like.

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Speaker 2: That, copious amounts of blood.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, copious amounts of blood. Uh, you know, huge volume

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Speaker 1: of blood. Which and again here here's another uh term

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Speaker 1: or the phrase they like to use, uh incompatibility with life.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's that's one of those things. You spill

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Speaker 1: so much blood, you know that, Uh, And depend upon

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Speaker 1: the person. You know, you have a finite amount of

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Speaker 1: blood in your body, and even that finite amount that

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Speaker 1: within the ranges of blood that you have within your body,

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Speaker 1: is going to dictate whether or not you're going to

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Speaker 1: survive or not, you know, whether it's it's going to

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Speaker 1: be sufficient to the task of providing yourselves with oxygenated

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Speaker 1: blood supply. So but uh, you know, with decomposition, we

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Speaker 1: we discuss blood in decomposition and blood in fact because

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Speaker 1: it is an element, a complex element. It's not a blood.

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Speaker 1: It's not a standalone substance. It's a it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a compound of many things, and blood itself does decome decompose. Uh.

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Speaker 1: All you know, not all I have to tell you is, uh, listen,

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Speaker 1: if you if you've ever had like a a rotten

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Speaker 1: bit of meat in your refrigerator, say, for instance, you

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Speaker 1: forgot the uh, the roast that was wrapped and sulfane.

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Speaker 1: It was in the back of your refrigerator and you say, oh,

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Speaker 1: look a roast and you pull it out and some

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Speaker 1: of that seeps out onto the floor.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the fouls substances known to man. It's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily just the the you know that that element

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Speaker 1: of the roast that is decomposing, it's that liquid that's

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Speaker 1: contained therein which is blood and it changes color. It's

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Speaker 1: got an awful, awful scent to it. And we'll go

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Speaker 1: into that in this particular episode of body Bags. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's part and parcel of what we do people.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back just for a second though,

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Speaker 1: because many, many times people say, I don't see how

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Speaker 1: in the world you bear staying locked up in a

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Speaker 1: room which I have with a decomposing body, and how

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Speaker 1: can you do what you have to do scientifically as

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Speaker 1: far as assessments go, and and dwell that environment with

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Speaker 1: that and it's you know, how let me let me

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Speaker 1: just throw this out to you, Dave, Do you have

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Speaker 1: any idea how I adjusted my mindset to it, any

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Speaker 1: idea whatsoever? Like what did I do? I looked at it.

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Speaker 1: I looked at decomposition as a normal biological process, almost

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Speaker 1: like birth. And I've been present for the birth of

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Speaker 1: my children, and people will go on and on about

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Speaker 1: what a beautiful thing birth is. It is. It is

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Speaker 1: a beautiful thing, you know, when new life comes about. However,

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Speaker 1: it's an ugly thing too. If you've never been present

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Speaker 1: for a birth and you see what occurs in the

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Speaker 1: midst of all of this, it's a very bloody affair.

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Speaker 1: And so but that's a natural biological process. And I've

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Speaker 1: always tried to understand it from that perspective, if I

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Speaker 1: could ever get my because look, you know, death investigators

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Speaker 1: have bad days too, obviously. You know it's like you're

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Speaker 1: standing there. You don't want to be around a decomposing body.

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Speaker 1: But I have to You always kind of have to

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Speaker 1: anchor yourself in the thought that, Okay, if I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be here, I'm going to set my feet in stone.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to understand this is a normal biological process.

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Speaker 1: I have to get past the odor and the things

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Speaker 1: that you see that surround the body in order to

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Speaker 1: find the truth. And of course, in science, that's that's

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Speaker 1: all I'm interested in. I'm not interested in all this

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Speaker 1: other you know, peripheral stuff that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: go after, you know, in the criminal justice system. That stuff,

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Speaker 1: to me, uh is outside my wheelhouse. I like to

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Speaker 1: understand what science is trying to tell me and listen,

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Speaker 1: decomposition in human remains, Dave is one of the finest

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Speaker 1: teachers that it's out there.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: It happens quick, doesn't it. I mean, when when we

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Speaker 3: from the moment we die, our body starts decomposing right away.

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Speaker 2: Isn't that correct?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. You can't small ways, Yeah, in small

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Speaker 1: ways you can't see it, you can't smell it. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: at at a cellular level, the sales begin to you know,

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Speaker 1: essentially break down, and you're not going to necessarily see

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Speaker 1: it immediately. And we're going to get into another episode

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Speaker 1: where we're going to be talking about immediate kind of

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Speaker 1: of post war changes, but we're kind of taking a

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Speaker 1: broad view. You're not going to get like, within within

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Speaker 1: minutes of death, you're not going to have a foul

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Speaker 1: odor emanating from the body that's associated with decomposition. Now,

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Speaker 1: you can't have a foul odor that's emanating from human remains,

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Speaker 1: save for instance, if they soil themselves right during the

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Speaker 1: throes of death, and that does, in fact happen. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen every time. A lot of people say, okay,

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Speaker 1: well doesn't that happen? Every single time.

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Speaker 2: I thought that wasn't it. I learned it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: But for the longest time I thought that when a

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Speaker 3: person died, everything just let go the sphincsen.

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Speaker 2: There you go, Mary christ I'm glad.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you actually mentioned that because that you know

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Speaker 1: when you get that that release safer instance of an

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Speaker 1: individual's bowels. Many times, that will take some time to occur,

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Speaker 1: and you mentioned the sphincter muscle specifically. You have to

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Speaker 1: have that area of the tissue begin to break down

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Speaker 1: so that that tension is no longer there and if

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Speaker 1: there is feces in the bowel, it can release, and

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Speaker 1: that does happen. You'll have bladder releases many times. Lots

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Speaker 1: of times bladder releases happen. I found when they're in

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Speaker 1: the perimortem, say, when they're in the throes of death,

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Speaker 1: you know that that will occur, but you know you

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Speaker 1: you don't have it every single time. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people labor under this idea that it occurs

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Speaker 1: in every single event like this, and it just doesn't.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that because part of its biology that we're all different.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like Elvis. When Elvis died, we know that

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Speaker 3: he had an impacted colon. Isn't that what that was called?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, he And a lot of that had to

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Speaker 1: do with these kind of opiate based drugs, which you'll.

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Speaker 2: Find me consturbated all the time.

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Speaker 1: He was, Yeah, he was. And people that are addicted to

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Speaker 1: things like heroin and morphine, and also any kind of opioid,

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Speaker 1: even if it's some kind of synthetic, you know, thing

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Speaker 1: that has been created a lot app it'll essentially lock

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Speaker 1: up the bowels. And I've done I've done autopsies on

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Speaker 1: individuals or participating in autopsies on individuals that are heroin ods,

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Speaker 1: and you'll have their entire large bowel with fecal impaction.

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Speaker 1: And it's a miserable existence because they can't I can't

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Speaker 1: pass you know anything. And plus they most of the

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Speaker 1: time they don't eat healthy foods anyway that keep the

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Speaker 1: system rolling. And they're they're hydrated either, which plays a

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Speaker 1: big role into it. So it doesn't happen every single time.

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Speaker 1: But interesting fact about about Elvis with his death, you

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Speaker 1: know his I think and I know that you're going

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Speaker 1: to know this, but I think his last his last

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Speaker 1: words were I'm I'm going to the bathroom to read.

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Speaker 1: I think it's what he told his girlfriend at the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I need that. And so he's he's on the toilet

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Speaker 1: or as my grainyused saying, the code uh, he's on

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Speaker 1: the commode, and and he dies. And did you know

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Speaker 1: that there is a significant number of people, such a

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Speaker 1: significant number of people that are found dead on toilets

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Speaker 1: that we actually have a term, a kind of a

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Speaker 1: euphemistic term that we use in death investigation called toilet sign.

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Speaker 1: And here's why. Many folks that do die while seated

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Speaker 1: on the toilet, they have mistaken this urgency to go

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom that that is masking an m I

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Speaker 1: they're actually having a heart attack. So they will go

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Speaker 1: to the bathroom, sit on a toilet, and many times

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Speaker 1: the strain of being on the toilet will push them

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Speaker 1: over the edge. So yeah, wow, we literally have I

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Speaker 1: can't tell you it's a countless number. At first that

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Speaker 1: you know, when I was a young investigator, I didn't

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Speaker 1: think it was a real thing, and the older guys

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Speaker 1: had told me that it was a real thing. And

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Speaker 1: so you know how older guys, you know, they they

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Speaker 1: talked to us knuckleheads that are young. You don't believe

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Speaker 1: anything until it's proven to you, right, trust me, I've

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Speaker 1: got a twenty three year old son, and so when

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Speaker 1: it's demonstrated, you say, oh my gosh, they were right.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I've been catching all these cases is

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Speaker 1: their natural desks, but I've been catching these cases within

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Speaker 1: visuals on toilets, and so yeah, it's legitimate. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if there's ever been a definitive scientific study about

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Speaker 1: toilet sign but it's a real thing. It's something that

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Speaker 1: we talk about and we talked about it for years

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Speaker 1: and years in the field, and you know, we'll just say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have a toilet sign case today.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and that that that's a real thing that

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Speaker 1: does happen.

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Speaker 3: But one of the things that when we start talking

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Speaker 3: about decomposition, and I didn't when you when you first

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Speaker 3: mentioned wanting to do this, do you realize that those

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Speaker 3: of us who follow crime report on crime cover, you know,

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Speaker 3: crimes that most of us only know the scientific aspect

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Speaker 3: of things when people like you are talking on a

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Speaker 3: crime show, because most of us are not in an

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Speaker 3: academic area. We're not taking you know, your class at school,

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Speaker 3: and this is the only way we find out is

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Speaker 3: by you sharing your knowledge. Because I don't know what happens.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I really don't. I know that the men

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Speaker 3: that I die, that everything stops living because I'm dead.

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Speaker 3: And obviously if you're not living, you're dying, which means

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Speaker 3: you're heading back to dirt eventually. Yeah, that's all I know.

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Speaker 3: I don't know the speed that it happens. I would

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Speaker 3: think it'd be very quickly.

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Speaker 1: You know, in a broad sense. It look, everything is

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Speaker 1: environmentally dependent, you know, And I've mentioned this countless times

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Speaker 1: on our program, where you know, we're referring to uh,

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Speaker 1: the biggest the biggest factor's heat, you know where you know.

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Speaker 1: I've gone on on scenes, man, where I've had multiple

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Speaker 1: bodies in a location that all died as a result

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Speaker 1: of One case in particular, had I think it was

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Speaker 1: four guys that had transported dope from Mexico. They were

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Speaker 1: in a van and they were tasked with meeting person

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Speaker 1: they were gonna do the exchange with in a warehouse

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Speaker 1: area in Atlanta, actually not too far from Six Lags, Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: in a industrial park, and all four of these guys

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Speaker 1: were shot in the van through the windows and killed

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Speaker 1: and the dope was taken. We didn't find their bodies

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Speaker 1: for two months, and they were just parked under tree

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Speaker 1: and it's actually a conversion van that was over there

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Speaker 1: and no one. Some guy decided to walk back there

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Speaker 1: and smoke a cigarette and when he did, he catches

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Speaker 1: a whiff. Well, when I opened the door of that van,

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Speaker 1: when I got there, liquid came pouring out of the van,

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Speaker 1: and that was decompositional fluid. And so they'd been there

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Speaker 1: for two months. I've had them even worse than that,

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Speaker 1: where bodies will. They don't turn into puddles necessarily, but

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Speaker 1: the skin becomes very soft and spongy. It's much like

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Speaker 1: a sponge, and you can feel it kind of when

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Speaker 1: you place your hands on the decomposing tissue, it feels

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Speaker 1: like it feels almost like the crackling of bubble wrap

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Speaker 1: many times, and that's because the cells in that area

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Speaker 1: in some of these cases, they kind of expand with

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Speaker 1: these decompositional gases that are contained within that area, and

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Speaker 1: you can almost feel it crackle beneath your fingertips. I've

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Speaker 1: had friends that have said that, and this has never

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Speaker 1: happened to me. But I've had people that have said

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Speaker 1: that bodies when they go to pull on them literally

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Speaker 1: come apart it joints. Now, that's never happened with me.

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Speaker 1: I've had I've had the manifestation was referred to as

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Speaker 1: skin slippage. And you'll hear this in trials. Many times

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Speaker 1: they'll talk about skin slippage, for instance, and that's where

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Speaker 1: the epidermis, that top layer of skin, even down to

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Speaker 1: the dermis below, the epidermist will literally peel off, you know,

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Speaker 1: in your hand and that but that takes time, you know,

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Speaker 1: it takes a certain amount of time. There's almost like

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Speaker 1: this kind of tenderizing factor if you will give me

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Speaker 1: a little latitude there with that that that has to

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Speaker 1: take place. Eventually the bodies will in fact dry out,

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Speaker 1: But before they dry out, there's a whole process that

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Speaker 1: occurs before you ever get to that market. I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to understand that. You know, decomposition can mean

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Speaker 1: a variety of different things to folks. You know, when

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I had to build a

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Speaker 1: composting bind in the backyard. My mother is. She loves gardening,

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Speaker 1: she always has and so everywhere she's lived she's had

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Speaker 1: a composting bent. And well what does that mean. Well,

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Speaker 1: you in the composting bin, you're gonna prow organic materials

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Speaker 1: in there. I remember her putting coffee grounds and eggshells

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Speaker 1: and everything else, and not to mention all of the

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Speaker 1: leaves from the previous spall. And you have to turn it.

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Speaker 1: You have to turn it. Some people put earthworms in there,

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things going. But you're trying to break

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Speaker 1: down that organic substance that's in there, and it creates

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Speaker 1: this rich, you know, kind of rich stirt. And it's interesting, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that you said a few months ago that we that

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Speaker 1: we turn you know, we turned into dust. And you

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Speaker 1: know there's that old Bible verse that, you know, what

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Speaker 1: was it from dust you came, and from dust you

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Speaker 1: shall return? And that that is truly the definition of

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Speaker 1: what happens. It just takes some time. It's not it's

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Speaker 1: not some kind of fantastical movie event. You have to

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Speaker 1: you have to be down for a long time. But

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Speaker 1: what kicks this whole thing off is heat. Heat and

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Speaker 1: absence of life. But you know, kind of the functional

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Speaker 1: definition for decomposition, how do you define it? Well, it's

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Speaker 1: a disintegration of body tissues after death is known as decomposition.

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Speaker 1: And I'd mentioned to you just a moment ago that

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Speaker 1: one of my one of my favorite characters in Looney Tunes,

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Speaker 1: in the Looney Tunes universe is the Martian that you know,

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Speaker 1: he's got the disintegrator array that he uses, and of

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Speaker 1: course Bugs always turns it around on him. I don't

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Speaker 1: think any good Bugs money cartoons ever were made after

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Speaker 1: probably about nineteen seventy by the way, just my thoughts.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, you know what does disintegration mean? Well, we

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Speaker 1: know what integrated is That means to blend right, or

348
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Speaker 1: if you have integrated circuits. You know, for instance, if

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Speaker 1: you're talking, if you're speaking to somebody that's like an

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Speaker 1: electrical engineer, well we're we're actually integrated. All of our

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Speaker 1: systems are integrated. Well, once that spark of life has

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Speaker 1: left the body and you no longer have this process

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Speaker 1: of keeping cells oxygenated, you have cellular respiration that's going on,

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Speaker 1: these things over a period of time will actually begin

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Speaker 1: to pull apart and they naturally fall apart, and so

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Speaker 1: that's that's part of the process and it's something that

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Speaker 1: we you know, that you have to understand.

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Speaker 3: All right, So as you're going through this entire process too,

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm approaching it a little bit different and

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Speaker 3: trying to think about the decomposition because, yeah, because it's

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Speaker 3: not something I'm used to talking about. You know, when

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Speaker 3: you're talking about the roast and the refrigerator. You know,

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Speaker 3: things like that opening a bad meat from the store

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Speaker 3: and you get that if you know that you're getting

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Speaker 3: something bad. So when you're talking about this beginning stages

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Speaker 3: here where it's starting to break down, what does that

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Speaker 3: tell you when you're coming in as an investigator and

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Speaker 3: looking at things as you are studying that individual. Because

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Speaker 3: all the time we want to know, well, we always

370
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Speaker 3: want to know the motive why did this happen? But

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Speaker 3: when when did this happen? You know, I've talked about that.

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Speaker 3: You've got to tell me exactly when this person died, Joe.

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Speaker 3: I need to know was it before or after dinner?

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Speaker 3: Did they eat dinner at ten o'clock or eight o'clock? Yeah,

375
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Speaker 3: And sometimes those things can't be told by the contents

376
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Speaker 3: of your stomach. There's got to be more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, And if you're looking for me or

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00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 1: any of my colleagues, tell you, and I'm saying to

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Speaker 1: you in the universal sense, Dave, that when somebody actually died,

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Speaker 1: it's an empirical impossibility. And anybody tells you that the

381
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Speaker 1: can is line and so you know, the short term

382
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: and that's a micro a micro examination you know when

383
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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about this on another episode. Even in

384
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Speaker 1: that sense, we the best we can do is some

385
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: people say they can do it in three you know,

386
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Speaker 1: within a three hour window. Most of the time, I

387
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: think it's going to be about four to five if

388
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: you cover all your bases something.

389
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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you know, O, there's things surrounding it, because

390
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 3: you know, we build that timeline, and as we're building

391
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Speaker 3: the timeline of activity, you can take all that into

392
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Speaker 3: consideration and narrow it down even further based on what

393
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 3: you're seeing in the physical realm of the of the

394
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 3: actual decomposition. So yeah, you're not just blindly finding a

395
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Speaker 3: body on the street, you know, right.

396
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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you if you can, if you can kind

397
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Speaker 1: of well here's the word, integrate some of those circumstantial

398
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 1: finds right, Yeah, you've you've got a better shot. But broadly,

399
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: you know, when we're talking about decomposition, very broadly, that's

400
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: that's hard to do. It's it's very difficult to particularly

401
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: if you have a body that we listen, we use

402
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: terms like early decomposition, modern decomposition, and advanced decomposition, and

403
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: then you'll have skeletonization. So you've got kind of that

404
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: spectrum of four things there. When one of the things

405
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: that you have to consider is that there's actually two

406
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: processs of decomposition going on, and kind of the way

407
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: in my simple mind, the way I like to look

408
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: at it, you have autolytic changes in auto mean self, right,

409
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: So you have autolsis that goes on, which is kind

410
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: of body breaking down from within. And if you think

411
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: about it from the perspective of a body literally digesting itself,

412
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Speaker 1: that's autolysis. Okay, So you know everything that is contained

413
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Speaker 1: within life when you have cellular respiration on the systems

414
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: or firing ceases to be at that point in time,

415
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: so the body begins to kind of from an enzyme standpoint,

416
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: begins to kind of digest itself. Then you have future

417
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: faction that goes on and then you know, in very

418
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: broad terms, you begin to you know, think about changes

419
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: that are produced by you know, the action of bacteria

420
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 1: and micro organisms, and that can that can come like

421
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: in an external manifestation. And then you have, you know,

422
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: if you think about even more broadly, you you have

423
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: the introduction of animals or even insects that are attacking

424
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: the body externally, and then you know, and that's going

425
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: to promote decomposition. So there's you've got a lot to

426
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: kind of consider when you come across a body that's

427
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: bloated and rotting and kind of you know, coming to

428
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Speaker 1: part one of the things that's always fascinated me. And uh,

429
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 1: in my my students at JSU, I'll ask them this

430
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: question and uh and of course I'll get this resounding

431
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: sound you know when I give it to them. If

432
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: you've ever seen one of these uh steakhouse commercials where

433
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 1: they'll say we've got beautiful dry aged beef or we

434
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: do wet aging process, you know what they're talking about.

435
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: They're tenderizing those steaks that they have through the process

436
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: of decomposition, you know, and you can have dry age,

437
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: which if you go to if one of my goals

438
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: in life is to try to get a reservation at

439
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: Luger Steakhouse in Manhattan. It's supposed to be the best

440
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: steak in the world, because I think I know where

441
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: the best steak in the world is, and that's Charlie

442
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: Steakhouse in New Orleans. So I want to see what

443
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: Lugers is.

444
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 3: But they have a we have just set a goal

445
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 3: for body bags.

446
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 2: You and I. You've got to take me to Charlie's

447
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: in North I'll.

448
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: Take you to Charlie's. Yeah, I will take you to

449
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: Charlie's and uh and one of the best best dining

450
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: experiences I've ever had. But with Charlie's, Charlie's uses I

451
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: think they used to use a rye agent method. And

452
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: the thing about it is with that they're talking about

453
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: they get this fine cut of beef, and we don't

454
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: like to think about this sort of thing. But you know,

455
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: aged beef is far better to eat than say, for instance,

456
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: if you take it right off the hoof, you have

457
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: to you have to let it, you have to let

458
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: it decompose. And that's that's and they don't use the

459
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 1: term decomposed. They say age. You know, it's it's much

460
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: more mellow. You know, it's like a it's like an

461
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: aged whiskey or wine of vintage wine. They try to

462
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: put it in those terms, but what it comes down

463
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: to is decomposing so that we can eat it, you know,

464
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: so that it's tender for us to eat.

465
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: So we're really not talking about getting fresh meat. We're

466
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 3: talking about getting I mean, I'm kind of grossed up

467
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 3: by that, Joe.

468
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,239
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. I really did.

469
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 3: I thought, if I go down here to where they've

470
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: got this, there's a bunch of cattle out here, and

471
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 3: they've got some pretty fat ones.

472
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 2: Look good.

473
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, that if I was to get that one skin

474
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: that you take care of the hide, I want that

475
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: turn that into a steak, like to have that tomorrow

476
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 3: morning with my eggs. That's not going to be worth

477
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: eating compared to something that's.

478
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's not. It's probably edible, but it's

479
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: not going to match up to Charlie's or from rumor

480
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: has it to Lugers in Manhattan because they have aged

481
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,479
Speaker 1: that beef. Well. In terms of human decomposition, there's an

482
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: aging process that goes on and if it's not controlled,

483
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: which in the sense of you know, when people are

484
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: eating beef. That's a controlled environment. If a body is

485
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: left out, say in the wild or even in a house,

486
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,959
Speaker 1: and the body is not refrigerated, the body is going

487
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: to do what bodies do. And look, this can be

488
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 1: stemmed through the process of what mortuary scientists do, and

489
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: that is infuse the body or profuse the body with

490
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: embalming fluid and they cease that process you know of,

491
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: or slow it down decompositional process. It kind of freezes

492
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: it for that moment. And with decomposition, though, you have

493
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: to get there early in order to stop it, because this,

494
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: I can tell you, with decomposition, once it starts, it's

495
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: like a barreling freight train. It's really hard to get

496
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: to handle on it. Okay. And so when you hear

497
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: people say, well, and this is non trauma related. You

498
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: have some elderly person that has been not found for

499
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: a week or two weeks in a home and the

500
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: mortuary says, well, you're gonna have to have closed casket.

501
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: People say, well, why would you have to have closed casket? Well,

502
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: it because the body has been decomposing for that period

503
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: of time, maybe under the most adverse conditions. You can

504
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: imagine where you know there's no there's no air con

505
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: that's that's operating. Maybe there's subject to I don't know,

506
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: flies and everything else that's in, and there's there's no

507
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: amount of restorate of work. I guess there is. You'd

508
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: have to pay a lot of money, but there's really

509
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: no amount of restorated work that you can go in

510
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: and you can patch this person up so that they're

511
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: presentable for an open casket. So the absence of an

512
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: open casket does not necessarily mean this is a trauma

513
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: related event. Many times it can be decompositional related.

514
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: And okay, let me.

515
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 3: Back to just on decomposition. When you're talking, you know,

516
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: twenty four to thirty six hours, right, you're going to

517
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: start seeing outward signs of the decomposition of the body, right, Yes, okay,

518
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 3: in that first twenty four hours, and in particular, I'm

519
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 3: thinking about in Idaho, in Moscow, Idaho, where the four

520
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: college students were murdered, and we believe based on the

521
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: information which I really want to talk to you about

522
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 3: that timeline, but what we understand is that sometime between

523
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: four and four thirty in the morning, all four of

524
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: these students were murdered by knife. But their bodies were

525
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 3: not found by law enforcement until eight hours later. All right,

526
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: is there going to be I mean, is there going

527
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 3: to be significant changes in the body during that eight

528
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: hour time period?

529
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: Not in the broad sense that we're in a macro

530
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: sense that we're talking about here, real broadly, where you're

531
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: going to have bloating and all those things that are

532
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: commonly associated with decomposition, you're not going to have it

533
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: in there. However, I think that it's key that we

534
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: come back and address that the Idaho killings when we

535
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: discuss the micro the micro sense of decomposition and those

536
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: changes within that eleven hour framework you're not going to

537
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: see or eleven to twelve hour framework, you're not going

538
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: to see much happen. It's with how can I say

539
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: this with an external manifestation which can be appreciated with

540
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: the unaided eye, you know, where you're examining the body. However,

541
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: within the twenty four to thirty six hour and again,

542
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: these these brackets of time are very very broad. One

543
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 1: of the things that will happen and something that kind

544
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: of manifests itself if everybody that's listening to me will

545
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: take your right hand and place it above the level

546
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: of your pelvis on the right side of your app

547
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: to when that approximates the area where your appendix is.

548
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: No one can really explain it. But one of the

549
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: things that we see manifested in decomposition, like an external manifestation,

550
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: is that that area you'll get a focal area of

551
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: greenish discoloration that will occur there, and it truly is.

552
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: It turns kind of a green color, and that many

553
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: many times doesn't happen in every case, but many times

554
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: it'll be you know, that's generally about twenty four to

555
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 1: thirty six hours. Well, Morgan, why is that important? Well,

556
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: it's important because if I have that manifestation that is occurring,

557
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: that's a marker in time. Okay. So if I look

558
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: at the body and I have no other information, if

559
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: I'm just visually eyeball in the body and I see

560
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: I see you know, this greenish coloration on the abdomen,

561
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: I can say, Wow, this might be an indications person's

562
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: been down at least twenty four to thirty six hours.

563
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: And you roll that into the idea that maybe their

564
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: limbs are flaccid, and flaccid means flexible, okay, or bendable. Well,

565
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: that means that riger's already left the body.

566
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 3: Okay, so I gotta know, yeah, because I, like many people,

567
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: don't know how quickly does rigormort to set in and

568
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: how quickly does it let go. Because we all know

569
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 3: of stories that we've told. As a matter of fact,

570
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: we had one not that long ago where two gentlemen

571
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: killed the third guy that they were having a three

572
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: way party with and went to get a tub at

573
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 3: home depot or wherever. And when they came back, the

574
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 3: guy was stiff and they had to break his legs

575
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 3: and beat him, you know, his body to make it

576
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 3: soft enough to get in the top. If they just waited,

577
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 3: how long would they have to wait for the body

578
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 3: to or twenty four to.

579
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: Thirty six hours? Okay, twenty four to thirty thirty six hours,

580
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: and uh, it's going to remain fixed. And that's the

581
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: one thing I never can understand about people that that

582
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: desecreate bodies beyond what they've already been desecrated. Where they

583
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: get you know, axes and these sorts of things, and

584
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, try to chop the legs off or whatever

585
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: if you wait. And again, obviously tom plays a factor

586
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: because anybody that brings death upon another person. They're not

587
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: wanting to hang around and be patient about it. The

588
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: body's become flashed again. They become what's termed malleable again,

589
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: so that you can bend them, you can contract them all.

590
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: You know, Roger Morris doesn't hang around forever and ever

591
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: eight minutes just not one of those things that occurs,

592
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: particularly in an unembalmed state. So you know, it will leave,

593
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: it dissipates over a period of time. But when you're

594
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: looking out over you know, kind of broadly over this

595
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: the spectrum of death with decomposition, you you look for

596
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: other signs as as you march down that timeline, Like

597
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: after you get beyond that that greenish discoloration that takes

598
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: place on the abdomen, you're talking about thirty six to

599
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: forty eight hours, Uh, the body will become or start

600
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: to distend, which means it'll you'll see the first signs

601
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: of bloating. You know, the abdomen begins to swell up well,

602
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 1: and the face will swell too. You know, you'll see

603
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: the face beginning to kind.

604
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: Of if a person has had their appendix out, yeah,

605
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 3: does there still is there still a greenish type of color?

606
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: Yeah?

607
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, manifests down there, and I don't know why it is,

608
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: because that's kind of the uh at that end where

609
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: you have the vernis called the verniform appendix sound there.

610
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: Verniform is like I think it's the Latin word for

611
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: worm is actually what it translates into.

612
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: It.

613
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: It will still manifest down that area even you know,

614
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: if an individual is absent their appendix and it's down

615
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: in that that area, I don't know if it because

616
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: it's on the opposite end of the large vowel from

617
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: where you know, the rectum is okay, so it's kind

618
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: of looped all the way around there, and you know

619
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: that's where the food that's being digested in the you know,

620
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 1: in the small intestine dumps into that part of the intestine,

621
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: the lower right side if you're talking about the right

622
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 1: side of the versus body, and then it traverses from

623
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: the uscending large vowel to the where it crosses over

624
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: into the descending bowel and eventually it is eliminated for

625
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: in the body. I don't know if that plays a

626
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: role into it, but you know, you couple that and

627
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: you go to another stage where you've got this kind

628
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: of slight bloating that's going on and with and particularly

629
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: the facial notice it. You'll get kind of the face,

630
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: we'll have a swollen appearance, and you'll also see the

631
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: first signs of something. Here's another term they use in

632
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: in butchery with beef. It doesn't mean the same thing,

633
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: but you'll we use this term called marbling. And marbling

634
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: if you imagine if you've got a spider web that

635
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: would normally be I don't know, spider webs are gray white.

636
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: If you imagine a black spider web superimposed upon a

637
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: body and it's got these kind of weird lines that

638
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: run all over the place. It's it's black, dark, dark black. Well,

639
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: that's like blood that is decomposing in the vessels and

640
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: it's showing through the face. So you'll see it first

641
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: manifest kind of around the jowls and the cheeks and

642
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 1: that sort of thing the neck, and that'll extend out

643
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: as time goes by, so you'll have these kind of

644
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: curve linear lines you know, that run over, you know,

645
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: all over the body. And that's actually what we refer

646
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: to as marveling. But again, Dave, that brings us back

647
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: to this benchmarking of time. That's you know, you're going

648
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: to talk about top end. That's that's going to take

649
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: about forty eight hours, you know, with an unattended body

650
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: that's found ideally in a protected environment, you know, like

651
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: in a house where you know, you don't have any

652
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: kind of postmortem feasting that's going on with animals or

653
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: things like that. And again, the more of these little

654
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: markers that we can get as death investigators, it allows us,

655
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: through science and the natural biological process, to tell the

656
00:38:53,920 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: story of the dead. I know a lot of people

657
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: are fans of dried fruit that are listening out there.

658
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: I see it everywhere I go, you know, in various

659
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: grocery stores and this sort of thing. I've never really

660
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: developed a taste for it. It's kind of like when

661
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I don't know about you, Dave,

662
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 1: but when I was a kid, I was made to

663
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: eat beef liver. I can't do it anymore. And the

664
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,959
Speaker 1: reason I can't do it anymore is that beef liver

665
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: looks just like human liver to me, you know, and

666
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: not participate in all those autopsies for all those years.

667
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: But with the dried fruit, one of the things I

668
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: think about when I see it is a term that

669
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: we refer to is desication because I call it desiccated.

670
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's dried, you know, and desiccation or the

671
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,479
Speaker 1: drying of limbs and particularly our penages like our feet,

672
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: your toes, feet, fingers in your hands. The more peripheral

673
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: you are to that kind of center core in a body,

674
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: the higher the probability is that area is going to

675
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: dry out. And that's what desiccation is. So if you're

676
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: if you you know, you couple that with the the

677
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: bloating that you see, and that's the next step that

678
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: you move on to is going to be manifested. The

679
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: idea that the extremities and I'm talking about it, if

680
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: you'll just touch your fingertips or tips of your toes

681
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: right now, those areas out of every other location in

682
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: the body will become dry first. And so the fingers,

683
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: the fingers actually take on an appearance like you know,

684
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: when you're little and your mom tells you, you know,

685
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: let me look at your hands, how long you've been

686
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 1: in the pool. You get this kind of shriveled appearance here.

687
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,479
Speaker 1: That's basically the way it looks. The only difference is

688
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: is that with the tips of fingers and decomposition and

689
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: it happens to the nose as well. It'll turn, it'll

690
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: turn kind of a black discoloration and it's dried out.

691
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 1: There's no more moisture, you know, left in that environment.

692
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: And so if we benchmark that time, you know, you're

693
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: talking about probably about forty eight to sixty hours down

694
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: range after death. At that point in time when you're

695
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, you're kind of pacing yourself through the scene.

696
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: That's why it's important at a scene that you you

697
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: don't want to miss anything, but at the scene, particularly

698
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 1: for the purposes of contextualizing things, it's important to be

699
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: able to see to see it for what it is,

700
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: you know, at the scene, and be able to document

701
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: that you observe that there, you know, before you remove

702
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,839
Speaker 1: the body at you know, at the scene and take

703
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: take the body to the corner's office of the medical

704
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: examiner's office where it's going to be examined.

705
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 3: You mentioned about the nose, and I'm thinking it is

706
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 3: Michael Jackson. Yeah, I had so many surgeries on his nose.

707
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: He give had a prosthetic end to his nose.

708
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Can I tell you, Uh, there are a couple

709
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: of times, a couple of images I have seen of

710
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: him over the years where it actually made my mind

711
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: drift back to people that I when I examine their bodies,

712
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: their nose had that same appearance. It's kind of dried,

713
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: and it gives it a, I don't know how to

714
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: say it, a very diminutive appearance, as it's not robust

715
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 1: and full like you see and lie fingers in particular,

716
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: fingers are really creepy on the dead because when they're shrivelled,

717
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: they're shriveled at the ends. They almost have like a

718
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: claw like manifestation. What's really interesting, as fingers shrivelled and

719
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: toast rivel, the abdomen actually begins to bloat. So you've

720
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: got this kind of juxtaposition. And with the bloating of

721
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: the abdomen you're talking, you know, seventy two hours, that

722
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 1: begins to happen. So the body is swelling, and what's

723
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: happening is all this gas is building up in the body,

724
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 1: and as it builds up, one of the foulus substances

725
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: known to man begins to exude from the body, and

726
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: it generally will any orifice in the body it'll come through,

727
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: and you see it a lot in the nose, the mouth,

728
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: and it's it's called purging. So you've got this cellular

729
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: substance where the cells are breaking down and it's a

730
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: combination of blood and other elements and it creates this flow.

731
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: And I think i'd shown this image to you, Dave,

732
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: of this fellow that city in a chair. Uh, and

733
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: he's swollen bloated. And you know that guy, Dave in life,

734
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 1: he only weighed about one hundred and sixty pounds.

735
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 2: Oh my yeah, but punds man that'd been shot in

736
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 2: the chest.

737
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 1: I know. And all of the blood that you see

738
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: on his chest. Everything that you see on his chest

739
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: is not blood. Well it's blood in it, that's that's

740
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: actually perge fluid or detail fluid. Yeah, and it's pouring,

741
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: it's coming out of his nose, in his mouth.

742
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: You're talking about the picture of the guy sitting in

743
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 3: the chair, like yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. Okay,

744
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 3: Just so y'all know, And I'm not going to include

745
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 3: this on I'm not going to show you guys this

746
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 3: picture that picture for that, but it's in this presentation.

747
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 3: And I opened the page and Joe explains these things

748
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: to me ahead of time. It's not going to make

749
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 3: me look like a total dummy. And I opened that

750
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: picture and I'm not kidding. I thought the guy had

751
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 3: been shot because and that he was discovered a day

752
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 3: or two later. I didn't realize that this was a

753
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 3: fairly small guy and died of natural causes.

754
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: I've got a fascinating story that goes along with that,

755
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: because there was a very young police officer that called

756
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: my office the day that he was the first person

757
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: to show up. It was a welfare check they'd gone

758
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: out on and the guy lived alone. He had been

759
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: divorced for a while, and he was I think he

760
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: was like in his late fifties and he was working.

761
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: You seeing the image, you're still wearing t shirt with

762
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: jeans and work boots. And he sat in his chair

763
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: and had a heart attack and died. Well, the young cop.

764
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: And I'm not judging this guy because I would have

765
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: thought the same thing. He called me from a landline

766
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: at that time. This was many years ago, and said, yeah,

767
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: we need you out here immediately. I think we've got

768
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: a guy that has been beaten to death. And he

769
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: even said at that time someone may have used a

770
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: hatchet on him or an axe. And when you see this,

771
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,280
Speaker 1: it's so grotesque. And over the top. That's what you're thinking.

772
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 1: You know, your mind automatically goes to that, because where

773
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: could all this the staining come from. And it's even

774
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: contrasted by the fact that the guy's wearing a white

775
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: T shirt. Well, the guy has no trauma to his body.

776
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: That's all decomp fluid that it's It is one of

777
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: the most disgusting substances known to man. And once it

778
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 1: makes contact with anything you're wearing, your clothing or anything

779
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: like that, go ahead and start the bonfire and burn

780
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: those clothes because you'll never they're unusable after that point.

781
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body