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Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.

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Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement they get lost along

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Speaker 2: the way and forget what their job really is.

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Speaker 3: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 3: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 3: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 3: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 4: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 4: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 1: They do that.

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Speaker 3: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home

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Speaker 3: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing. And anybody that said, well,

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Speaker 3: why would you confess to something that you didn't do?

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Speaker 3: My question to them will be why wouldn't you confess

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Speaker 3: when somebody's threatening to kill your life? The judge, he said,

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Speaker 3: how you feel?

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Speaker 1: I said, I'm okay.

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Speaker 3: He said, well, the days you're lucky day you're going home.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today we have two very special guests. Jerome Morgan,

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Speaker 4: who was exonerated after serving twenty years in prison in

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Speaker 4: Louisiana in the worst possible conditions.

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Speaker 5: Morgan was seventeen when he was convicted of the murder

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Speaker 5: of a sixteen year old at a party and was

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Speaker 5: sent away to Angola for life. He proclaimed his innocence,

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Speaker 5: but it wasn't until new evidence was discovered in prosecutors'

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Speaker 5: files that Morgan's conviction was overturned, helped by two eyewitnesses

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Speaker 5: who recanted, saying their statements more than twenty years earlier

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Speaker 5: had been coerced by police.

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Speaker 6: Kevin Johnson and Hakeem Shabaz were teenagers when they said

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Speaker 6: they were coerced into naving Jerome Morgan as a shooter

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Speaker 6: in the murder murder of the sweet sixteen party back

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Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 5: The DA's office finally dropped the charge last May. It

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Speaker 5: was a triumphant moment for Morgan and his attorneys at

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Speaker 5: Innocence Project New Orleans. A teenager who went to prison

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Speaker 5: walked out as a thirty seven year old man.

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Speaker 4: And one of his attorneys is here as well. From

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Speaker 4: the Innocence Project of New Orleans also known as IPNO.

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Speaker 4: Kristin Winstrom is here. Jerome and Kristin, welcome to ronful conviction.

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Speaker 7: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 4: Let's go back to May twenty second, nineteen ninety three

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Speaker 4: and even a little further back than that.

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Speaker 2: You grew up in New Orleans, Yes, sir, Yes, I

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Speaker 2: grew up in the neighborhood called Putch Train Park here

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Speaker 2: in New Orleans. It was a neighborhood that was built

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Speaker 2: for and by Black's in nineteen fifty five, right after

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Speaker 2: Brown versus Board of Educations with the Separate but Equal

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Speaker 2: law that was written into the constitution, and so they

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Speaker 2: had lent the history of ownership.

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Speaker 1: And so, you know, I grew up in a culture

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Speaker 1: of being.

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Speaker 2: Able to teach it yourself and being able to take

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Speaker 2: care of people, you know that needs your help in

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Speaker 2: the community.

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Speaker 4: And did they have a big family.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in foster care from the age of

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Speaker 2: three until my own full arrest. My mom she didn't

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Speaker 2: receive a former education, so her reasons were because she

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Speaker 2: wanted us to have an education, she placed us in

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Speaker 2: falster care. And that's how I end up in the

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Speaker 2: punch Trained Park neighborhood with a foster family by the

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Speaker 2: name of the Johnson's.

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Speaker 4: And on May twenty second, nineteen ninety three, you were

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Speaker 4: barely seventeen years old. It just turned seventeen, Yes, sir,

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Speaker 4: so are you're still a child.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, as a young young male and you know,

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Speaker 2: going through the phases of puberty. Of course, naturally, you know,

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Speaker 2: as a young person you struggle with your identity, you know,

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Speaker 2: this this stage of puberty and just trying to find

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Speaker 2: your identity.

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Speaker 4: You ended up going to a party in a hotel ballroom.

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Speaker 4: It was a sweet sixteen party, yes, sir, and so

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Speaker 4: it sounds like, you know, recipe for a good night

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Speaker 4: and then things went crazy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well this the backup a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I was put out from the foster home in Punchry

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Speaker 2: Train Park a day after my sixteenth birthday for being

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Speaker 2: suspected of selling drugs in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen nine three.

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Speaker 2: My best friend was murdered, but before then, his mom

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Speaker 2: called him in nineteen ninety two with some crack rock

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Speaker 2: in his room, and so she called all of our parents,

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Speaker 2: you know, his friends, because you know, it was a

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Speaker 2: group of us.

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Speaker 1: It was friends that hang out every day.

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Speaker 2: And so she called my foster parents and then in

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Speaker 2: turn put me out, and so I didn't see my

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Speaker 2: friends because I went to stay in another area in

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Speaker 2: New Orleans in the eight war with my aunt who

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Speaker 2: had a one bedroom apartment on Franklin Avenue and she

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Speaker 2: stayed there with her daughter, who was a year younger

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Speaker 2: than me. And so my friend Romeo Johnson asked me

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Speaker 2: to come to the party because we hadn't been hanging

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Speaker 2: out and they wanted to, you know, spend some time,

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Speaker 2: and so I agreed. We met up at another friend's

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Speaker 2: house and walked to the party, and so we got there.

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Speaker 2: I was very familiar with a lot of people there

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Speaker 2: because my freshman year was spent at McDonald thirty five

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Speaker 2: and that's where the young lady whose birthday was.

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Speaker 1: That's where she attended.

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Speaker 2: And by this time all it was, all of us

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Speaker 2: was juniors at the time, are just finishing our junior

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Speaker 2: year in school, and so all I needed was to

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Speaker 2: and I have credits to graduate, so you know, it

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Speaker 2: was pretty much a friendly party until two group of

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Speaker 2: guys started to you know, push and shove each other

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Speaker 2: while dancing on the dance floor, and so that escalated.

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Speaker 2: But one group of guys left out to I guess,

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Speaker 2: avoid anything that may transpire from that pushing and shoving,

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Speaker 2: but then decided to come back in. And the moment

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Speaker 2: they decided to come back in, the other group of

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Speaker 2: guys that they was, you know, getting into the skirmish

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Speaker 2: with you know, approached them and then they started to fight.

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Speaker 2: And once the fight started, it was like a bro

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Speaker 2: many people fighting and then shots he erupted. And once

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Speaker 2: shots he erupted it. I was standing there next to

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Speaker 2: the speakers by the DJ table because I enjoy music.

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Speaker 1: But once I heard the shots, my immediate reaction was.

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Speaker 2: To jump behind the DJ table and hide under the

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Speaker 2: DJ table so that I won't get shot. A few

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Speaker 2: of my friends in my peripheral I could see them

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Speaker 2: running in some of the same directions and then running

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Speaker 2: into another room.

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Speaker 4: How many people were at the party.

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Speaker 2: Well, by record, over eighty because everybody had to enlist

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Speaker 2: their names before leaving. But that don't account for the

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Speaker 2: people that may have left as they were running from

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Speaker 2: the gun shots.

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Speaker 4: But at least eighty people, it was a pretty big party. Yes, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 4: it sounds like a recipe for disaster. I mean, gunshots

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Speaker 4: in a crowded place like that, anything could happen. You

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Speaker 4: could have been shot, so you're hiding under the table.

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Speaker 2: Right and the shots ceased. You hear a lot of screaming, yelling.

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Speaker 2: I heard, in particular, somebody shot in the area where

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Speaker 2: I thought i'd see my friend run too, So immediately

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Speaker 2: my attention went to there. I left it, went and

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Speaker 2: went into that room and found a person that we

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Speaker 2: was acquainted with was shot in the leg and my

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Speaker 2: friends were trying to help him. So immediately took off

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Speaker 2: my shirt because I see two wounds, entry wound and

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Speaker 2: exit wound. I don't know where I learned it from,

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Speaker 2: but I took off my shirt to tie around his

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Speaker 2: leg under the wound to stop the bleeding. But my

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Speaker 2: shirt didn't fit because he was a kind of bulky guy.

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Speaker 2: So my friend Romel Johnson snatched the table caught off

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Speaker 2: of the refreshment table to tie around his leg, and

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Speaker 2: so once we tied that around his leg, we sat

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Speaker 2: there and to the ambulams came.

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Speaker 4: And then the police were called quickly. Yes, yes, I'm

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Speaker 4: sure probably a lot of different people, probably called nine

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Speaker 4: one one, and they showed up within minutes, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, but at the time I had no knowledge

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Speaker 2: of it. Like I said, I was in this adjacent

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Speaker 2: room waiting with this victim.

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Speaker 1: Into the ambulance came.

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Speaker 2: So my personal knowledge of the police being there came

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Speaker 2: about when we came out of the room with this

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Speaker 2: victim and just that'll go with the paramedics so they

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Speaker 2: can get him to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: But once I came out of there, it was like

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Speaker 1: table set up.

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Speaker 2: It was ununiformed police there and uniform police there.

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Speaker 4: So I'm sure everybody listening is going, okay, well, so

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Speaker 4: what's the story here? I mean, why would anybody possibly

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Speaker 4: there's over eighty people, because, like you said, not including

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Speaker 4: the people who left, they counted eighty people there, and

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Speaker 4: obviously a lot of people probably ran right out the door.

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Speaker 4: The people who are closest to the door, it's a

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Speaker 4: safe bet they went to the street and got the

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Speaker 4: hell out of there. I want to ask Christen this too,

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Speaker 4: Like again, it sounds like you're going home and it's

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Speaker 4: a very unfortunate incident. You actually acted in a very

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Speaker 4: kind of heroic way for somebody who's not trained as

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Speaker 4: a doctor or anything else. Maybe you saw it on

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Speaker 4: TV or whatever, but you did what a concerned and

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Speaker 4: honorable citizen would do, which has come to the aid

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Speaker 4: of somebody who's been shot and bleeding, and you did

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Speaker 4: what you could do in the circumstance, and then stayed

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Speaker 4: there till the ambulance came. That's more than ninety percent

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Speaker 4: of people would have done or did do right. So

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Speaker 4: it sounds like that's where this story ends, but it's

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Speaker 4: not so. Kristin, What can you tell us, like, how

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Speaker 4: did he possibly become a suspect under this scenario? I mean,

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Speaker 4: I know it's Louisiana, and I know it's New Orleans

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Speaker 4: and crazy shit happens here every day all day and

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Speaker 4: twice on Sunday.

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Speaker 1: But tell us what happened?

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Speaker 7: Well, to clarify a little bit. Once the shots are fired,

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Speaker 7: not only was Jerome's friend shot in the leg, but

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Speaker 7: there was another individual who shot in the abdomen. He

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Speaker 7: ultimately survived that shooting. And one boy, Clarence Landry, was

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Speaker 7: shot and killed and he died there on the scene.

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Speaker 7: And so that's how this became murder charge. But the

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Speaker 7: reason that when our office looked at Jerome's case and

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Speaker 7: we were committed to representing him, even though we didn't

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Speaker 7: initially know how we're going to do it, is because,

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Speaker 7: by everyone's account, the gunman shot those bullets and then

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Speaker 7: ran out of the room.

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Speaker 4: It was a single gunman, yes, single gunman, a lot

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Speaker 4: of shots though.

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Speaker 7: Let me think I believe there were eight shots. Seven

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Speaker 7: or eight shots.

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Speaker 4: That's a lot in a crowded room.

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Speaker 7: But yeah, and so by all accounts, that gunman ran

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Speaker 7: out of the room, as you would expect somebody who

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Speaker 7: shoots a gun into a crowd, But he left the building.

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Speaker 7: He left the building. And when the detectives arrived a

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Speaker 7: bit later after the initial police arrived, and they took

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Speaker 7: down the names, phone numbers, addresses, school social security numbers

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Speaker 7: of every kid who was still in the room and

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Speaker 7: kind of had them line up and asked them their information.

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Speaker 7: I think basically was asked him, do you know anything?

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Speaker 7: Everyone in the room gave them their basic information and

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Speaker 7: said I don't know who it was. I couldn't see it.

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Speaker 7: They were then free to leave. And so there was

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Speaker 7: in the police report a list of I believe eighty

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Speaker 7: four names and Jerome's name, date of birth, address, social

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Speaker 7: security number is listed there By all accounts he was

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Speaker 7: in the room after the shooting. So the gunman fled,

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Speaker 7: Jerome Morgan is still in the room, and somehow he

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Speaker 7: gets convicted of this murder. So that's why we are

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Speaker 7: always confident in his innocence. But I can tell you

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Speaker 7: why he was.

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Speaker 4: Convicted let's talk about that, because it is an insane

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Speaker 4: story of incompetence, malfeasance, misconduct, carelessness, and just sort of

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Speaker 4: a don't give a fuck about the truth type of attitude.

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Speaker 4: They were fishing in the wrong pond, right, They knew

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Speaker 4: that the actual perpetrator left, So what did they do.

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Speaker 4: They decided to pick somebody from a group of people

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Speaker 4: who should have automatically been excluded, right, And they lied

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Speaker 4: in order to accomplish that goal. I mean, and they

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Speaker 4: didn't lie a little, they lied a lot, right, Which

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Speaker 4: is one of the things that makes this case an

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Speaker 4: important case for people to know about because it wasn't

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Speaker 4: a small lie. It was a big lie, and it

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Speaker 4: was a series of them that led to Jerome almost

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Speaker 4: having his entire life taken away from him, but certainly

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Speaker 4: his more than half of his life was taken from him.

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Speaker 4: And had you guys not gotten involved, he would have

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Speaker 4: died in prison.

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Speaker 7: Yes, he had a sentence of life without parole. So

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Speaker 7: that was a sentence in Louisiana. That's a sentence to

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Speaker 7: die in prison.

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Speaker 4: So, Jerome, you were a boy, not a man. All

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Speaker 4: of a sudden, you're a boy in a very grown

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Speaker 4: up situation. So what happened and then what went through

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Speaker 4: your mind?

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Speaker 1: Well, but you know I was there. You know, I

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Speaker 1: was a witness.

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Speaker 2: I seen the fire from the gun, and I seen

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Speaker 2: the guy and dead and you know other guy shot. Now,

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Speaker 2: the guy that was breaking up the fight, I didn't

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Speaker 2: see him because from the record, he ran out into

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Speaker 2: the lobby. And that's how they initiated the call to

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Speaker 2: the police, because as soon as he ran out, he

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Speaker 2: ran into a lobby and a person in there saw

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Speaker 2: that he was injured and bleeding and called the police.

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Speaker 2: You know, just that experience. But being in New Orleans

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Speaker 2: is like it's no surprise at that time. You know,

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Speaker 2: New Orleans had a heavy culture and kind of rowdy music,

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Speaker 2: bonce music, hype music, and that's what started the humbug

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Speaker 2: between the.

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Speaker 1: Two group of guys.

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Speaker 2: You know, Like I said, I was put out from

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Speaker 2: the Foster Home, so I was staying with my aunt,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we were poor. Usually when I was

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Speaker 2: staying with in the Foster Home, you know, I was

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Speaker 2: more well off because I had more community, more neighbor support.

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Speaker 2: But I'm saying that because at this particular time, I

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Speaker 2: had to go find some cheap clues to wear to

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Speaker 2: the party something new, and at the time the trend

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Speaker 2: was Warner brother T shirts, you know, Jean Sharks and

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Speaker 2: tennis shoes, maybe some socks or something. But I say

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Speaker 2: that to say, this is what I bought all Knall

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Speaker 2: Street that ned it went to the party, and this

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Speaker 2: is what the group of guys that got into with

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Speaker 2: the guy who would feelings shot and his friends wore

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Speaker 2: that night, Warner brother T shirts and Jean Sharks tennis shoes.

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Speaker 2: So my thing is by a lot of people being

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Speaker 2: aware of who I was and my friends because we'd

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Speaker 2: be at a lot of teenage events, you know, school dances, parties,

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Speaker 2: we used to go to skate country a lot, so

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are familiar with our face and

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Speaker 2: so they probably misassociated me with this other group, and

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Speaker 2: the other guy that actually did it probably resemble me

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Speaker 2: in their perspective. So that's how I was associated with

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Speaker 2: that group, by you know, these teenage rumors. But at

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Speaker 2: the time, like I said, I needed to and I

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Speaker 2: have credits to graduate high school, so I was trying

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Speaker 2: to focus on that, especially since my mom initially put

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Speaker 2: me in foster care to get an education, and so

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Speaker 2: I was also working at when Dixie at a grocery store.

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Speaker 1: So I was trying to figure out my life.

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Speaker 2: As it would end as a teenager and as I

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Speaker 2: would approaching being an adult.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I had a lot to figure out.

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Speaker 4: I was reading about your case in the National Registry

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Speaker 4: of Exonerations. And here's where it gets really weird. Right,

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Speaker 4: and I'm just going to read this right the way

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Speaker 4: they wrote it. It says that in June nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 4: so this is the next month, shortly after the Clime

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Speaker 4: police received a crime Stoppers tip that the gunman may

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Speaker 4: have been you, Jerome Morgan. The detective assemble the photographic

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Speaker 4: lineup that included the photograph of you, a seventeen year old,

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Speaker 4: and other people who had been at the party. This

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Speaker 4: is where it gets weird. Two witnesses are shooting were

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Speaker 4: shown the photo lineup containing your photo. One witness did

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Speaker 4: not identify anyone in the lineup as the gunman, and

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Speaker 4: the other, Kevin Johnson put it says, put Morgan's photo asides,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to call you by your last name here

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Speaker 4: and said quote he knew that guy from grade school

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Speaker 4: and he was not the shooter. Now I'm getting the

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Speaker 4: chills like I do on this show, and I'm going, Okay,

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Speaker 4: wait a minute, we're done. Let's keep looking, because now

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Speaker 4: we know this guy's not the guy. Yeah, so that

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Speaker 4: should have excluded you right off the bat. Now, there's

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Speaker 4: another part of this that's extremely disturbing, which is the

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Speaker 4: same kid, Kevin Johnson told police that he chased the gunman,

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Speaker 4: which is a crazy thing to do in the first place.

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Speaker 1: He chased the.

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Speaker 4: Gunman outside the building and followed him until he leaped

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Speaker 4: over a fence and escaped. Right, so the police knew

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Speaker 4: that the gunman ran, jumped over a fence, and escaped,

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Speaker 4: and later on they managed to sort of twist this

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Speaker 4: into a whole different narrative where they said that actually

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Speaker 4: they didn't show up till half an hour after the

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Speaker 4: shooting happened, which we know was not true at all,

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Speaker 4: and that therefore you must have been the guy who

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Speaker 4: ran away, jumped over the fence, and then came back

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Speaker 4: to blend in with the crowd, because that would be

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Speaker 4: just the dumbest fucking thing anybody could possibly imagine to do.

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Speaker 4: Knowing that the police must be on their way, you're

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Speaker 4: going to go back and sort of as they would say,

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Speaker 4: blend In, that's a little bit of a stretch, right,

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Speaker 4: So Kristin, how did they get how did they get

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Speaker 4: a con? I mean you would think that there's just

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Speaker 4: not a reasonable person that would believe this story.

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Speaker 7: Yes, there was a gunman who ran out of the

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Speaker 7: room and Jerome was undeniably in the room after the

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Speaker 7: police arrived, and the best witness to who that gunman

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Speaker 7: was explicitly excluded Jerome from the lineup, So it seems

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Speaker 7: pretty clear that Jerome was not the person who did it.

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Speaker 7: After Kevin Johnson excluded Jerome from the photo array, the

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Speaker 7: police had no other leads. I don't know that they

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Speaker 7: were doing much work. They relied at that point on

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Speaker 7: rumors from high school kids. That's what the crime stoppers

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00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 7: tip was based on. These are all just high school

350
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Speaker 7: kids spreading rumors. And there were rumors that they're of

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Speaker 7: other people besides Jerome as well. But the rumor that

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Speaker 7: got to the police was Jerome Morgan, and so they

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Speaker 7: put that photo line up together, he was excluded, and

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Speaker 7: then they had no more leads. And so then that

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Speaker 7: was June second, when that photo array was shown, and

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Speaker 7: nothing happened in the investigation. I mean, you can look

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Speaker 7: at the police reports and there's really nothing in the

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Speaker 7: police reports between June second until August twenty second, three

359
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Speaker 7: months after the crime. And based on the police reports

360
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Speaker 7: and what the jury heard, supposedly spontaneously, the police just

361
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Speaker 7: called Hakeem Shabaz, who was one of the kids who

362
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 7: was shot that night. He was shot in the abdomen

363
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Speaker 7: and survived. He was not involved in the fight, but

364
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Speaker 7: he was trying to break up the fight, and supposedly

365
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Speaker 7: the police called him three months after the crime. This

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Speaker 7: is the first time speaking with him, and he just said,

367
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Speaker 7: Jerome Morgan shot me, and he came in and made

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Speaker 7: a photo identification. So that's the account that the police had.

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Speaker 7: That's what the jury heard.

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Speaker 4: Right now. What's troubling me a little bit about this

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Speaker 4: is if you were the guy who got shot and

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Speaker 4: you knew who did it, what the fuck would take

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Speaker 4: you so long to come forward with that information. Did

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Speaker 4: you know Shabaz?

375
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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he was a familiar face because we attended

376
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Speaker 2: McDonald thirty five as Freshmans together.

377
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Speaker 4: Right. What happened there, Kristen, the true.

378
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,480
Speaker 7: Story of how Hakim came to name Jerome Morgan. So

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Speaker 7: the truth is is that Hikim had no idea who

380
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Speaker 7: shot him. He like everyone else in that room. It

381
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Speaker 7: was a dimly lit ballroom, and when the shots are fired,

382
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Speaker 7: there was a bright light that came from the gun.

383
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Speaker 7: No one could see the face of the gunman. Hakim

384
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Speaker 7: was in the middle of breaking up a fight. He

385
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Speaker 7: was in no better position to identify the gunman than

386
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Speaker 7: other people who were shown photo rays and couldn't make

387
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Speaker 7: an identification. So the truth is he didn't know. But

388
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 7: in that three months he heard rumors about Jerome as well.

389
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Speaker 7: He heard that name being thrown around. And what actually

390
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 7: happened was the police called him and got him on

391
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Speaker 7: the phone and they said, Hikim, do you know who

392
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Speaker 7: shot you? And he said no, and they said Jerome

393
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Speaker 7: shot you. So the detective is telling him Jerome shot him,

394
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Speaker 7: and Haikim, hearing the same name that he's heard in rumors, thinks, okay,

395
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Speaker 7: I'll believe that. He agrees, okay, and he goes down

396
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Speaker 7: to the police station and makes an identification and makes

397
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 7: a form statement. So now we have one witness who

398
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,199
Speaker 7: explicitly says that Jerome Morgan was the gunman.

399
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Speaker 4: But that's not all.

400
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 7: No, So now at that point, the police arrest Jerome.

401
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,959
Speaker 2: Adventures arrested me on my mom's birthday that year, nineteen

402
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 2: ninety three, October seventh. I mean, I was arrested, but

403
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,959
Speaker 2: they didn't get any indictment because it was just one eyewitness.

404
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,479
Speaker 2: And remember Kevin Johnson that gave a negative photo idea

405
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 2: of me, and so I sat seventy two a's in

406
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Speaker 2: Orleans Parish prison.

407
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Speaker 1: I had to be released after.

408
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 2: That time because they didn't get an indictment, and so

409
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 2: they all crossed it and I was released on December sixteenth,

410
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,360
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three.

411
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Speaker 4: Okay, so now you're out right. So this has a

412
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,719
Speaker 4: lot of twists and turns, but they weren't done. They

413
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 4: were going to stick. As we see sometimes and myopic

414
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 4: would be a nice way to put it right. We

415
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 4: see this that once once a lie gets started or

416
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 4: a witch hunt or whatever you want to call it,

417
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 4: they don't give up easy, and they don't like to

418
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 4: be proven wrong. And they needed somebody right, they needed

419
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 4: to solve this crime.

420
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Speaker 1: Well, at the time when I was released, I don't

421
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: think they care that normal happens.

422
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 2: It was a black guy, young black guy that was killed,

423
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 2: so nobody in the DA's office really cares about that

424
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: sort of thing. It wasn't until the fatal victim's mom

425
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 2: got into the newspaper and got into the news and

426
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 2: made attention that nothing is getting done behind my son's murder,

427
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 2: and so that would cause them to, I guess, try

428
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 2: to make like they were doing something to appease this

429
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 2: parent who was making them look bad in the media

430
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Speaker 2: about this crime taking place and no one being held accountable.

431
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 4: So then it comes back around and you're eventually rearrested, yes,

432
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 4: and brought in for trial, and I assume you were

433
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Speaker 4: represented by a public defender.

434
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, contract butblic of defender. But out that the

435
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: current occurrence happened. The fatal victim's mom went to Kevin Johnson,

436
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 2: and I guess picked him up and told him that

437
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 2: you need to talk to the DA and somebody because

438
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: the person that is being rumored to have killed my

439
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 2: son has been released and we have to do something

440
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 2: about it.

441
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 4: And Kevin Johnson, just to refresh everybody's memory, was the

442
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 4: guy who originally had said that you weren't the guy

443
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 4: he knew you from grade school, You were not the shooter.

444
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 4: But now all of a sudden his memory is different.

445
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean he's feeling pressure from you know,

446
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: his best friend, one of his best friend's parents and

447
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 2: their family. You know they have he had eleven other siblings.

448
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 2: Clarence Landry did Lass Landry was the kid who was killed. Yes, yes,

449
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 2: and so and the other two friends antonio' bradley and

450
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 2: Harrison Hogan.

451
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: They weren't able to make identifications.

452
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 2: But you know, it's a out of pressure on Kevin

453
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 2: because and then he buried the guilt of going back

454
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 2: into the ballroom after the initial skirmish and they left.

455
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 2: They were supposed to returning to get a cousin of

456
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 2: his from inside the party, but once they went back

457
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 2: inside the party, that's when the fight happened and his

458
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 2: best friend was murdered. So Ms Landry picked up Kevin

459
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 2: Johnson from his job. They went to i think first

460
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: the homicide detective office. The homicide detective pointed him to

461
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 2: the d's office so that he could make a statement.

462
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: And so they say that he altered statement in a

463
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 2: way because he's saying a homicide detective misunderstood what he

464
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: was saying, that he was in shock when he seen

465
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 2: a picture and he said oh, he can't be, like,

466
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 2: you know.

467
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 4: Just right right, So he went from it can't be

468
00:23:50,640 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 4: to oh, it can't be. At the trial, there were

469
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 4: a number of people who testified on your behalf and

470
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 4: said that you never left the room, but we know

471
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 4: that the shooter did, so that would be pretty strong testimony.

472
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 4: You testified as well, and yet you were convicted in

473
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 4: a trial that lasted one day. There has to be

474
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 4: and this is something that is and should be troubling

475
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 4: to every person, every American, the idea that a trial

476
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 4: or the consequences are so profound. Literally it's a death sentence.

477
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 4: I've spoken to some ex houneries who will say that

478
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 4: they would have preferred to be sentenced to death than

479
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 4: life without parole. Yes, because it's death either way.

480
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: It just takes longer.

481
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 4: You get to spend the rest of your life in

482
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 4: hell and then die and.

483
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: Then over at a younger age and maybe a other people.

484
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 4: It's pretty shocking that the justice system could take such

485
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 4: a casual approach to somebody's life, but that's what they do,

486
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 4: and down here in Louisiana they do it all the time. Yes,

487
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 4: So it's almost like a factory process. It's a machine

488
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 4: that grinds up the people it's supposed to serve. It

489
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 4: leaves the public in a situation of which the actual

490
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 4: killer is out there a roam in the streets, dangerous

491
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 4: as ever. And also when you think about locking up

492
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 4: a seventeen year old person, we're going to spend millions

493
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 4: of dollars over the years. Now, it's good for business.

494
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 4: We know that there's people making money on it, but

495
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 4: the public is paying for it, yes, through the tax

496
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 4: dollars and everything else. So the only people making money

497
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 4: are the people who provide services for the prison, right

498
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 4: the industries that are associated with the prison. In some cases,

499
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 4: the sheriffs themselves. And we have a particularly strange situation

500
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 4: in this country in some states where sheriffs actually own jails.

501
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 7: You just talk about making money off of incarcerating people.

502
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 7: Obviously there's all the services, but there's the make money

503
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 7: off of that system. But there's also the individual men

504
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 7: who are at Angola, which is a former slave plantation

505
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 7: or a combination of multiple slave plantations, where you've got

506
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 7: men working in fields and to be for money to

507
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 7: make off of them. And we had at some point

508
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 7: requested Jerome's disciplinary record at the prison. This was in

509
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 7: the nineties. He was disciplined for not picking cotton fast enough.

510
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 4: Okay, let's just reflect on that for a second. What

511
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 4: century is this exactly? He was disciplined for not picking

512
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 4: cotton fast enough. I mean the images that that conjures

513
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 4: up of the worst, you know, the most shameful periods

514
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 4: in American history are very real. I mean, it's it's

515
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 4: and this is this is in the nineteen ninety yea today, Yeah.

516
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: I think it was ninety six ninety seven that occurred.

517
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 2: In the proper word, they say it was not enough

518
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 2: speed and efficiency, and the infraction was a worker fans

519
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: aggravated worker fings.

520
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 4: Why do I feel like Abe blink and is spinning

521
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 4: in his grave right now? Okay, so that was your

522
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 4: infraction among yes, yes, so Angola to paint a picture.

523
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 4: It's still a slave plantation, right. It's named Angola because

524
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 4: of the fact that it was a slave plantation and

525
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 4: the slaves were brought from Angola, so they named it Angola.

526
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: Didn't take a lot of imagination, and it is really

527
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 4: a place that's removed from society and is basically free

528
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 4: from any sort of oversight as far as I can tell.

529
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 4: And what goes on in Angola, stays in Angola. Right,

530
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 4: I call it the silence scene of truth, the silencing

531
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 4: of truth. What do they pay the the inmates at Angola.

532
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: For a sense, but you only get two cents?

533
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: Two centses automatically put into some savings for you to

534
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: afford court documents or supposed to be educational things.

535
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: But usually what they do is save the two cents.

536
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: So when you get in debt for restitution or any

537
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: other rule in fraction they write you up on they

538
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: can take that money that you pay as a fine

539
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: or debt to whatever in fraction they root you up on.

540
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 4: Two cents an hour. Yes, wow, I thought you know.

541
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 4: I thought I knew that, but I just didn't want

542
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 4: to say it because it sounds too crazy. And I

543
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 4: didn't want to say something that was completely crazy because

544
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 4: it sounds so crazy that it's crazy. But it's crazy,

545
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 4: so okay. And we know that in Louisiana, for second

546
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 4: degree murder, there's only one sentence, which is life without parole. Lwop.

547
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: Yep.

548
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 4: There you were, all of a sudden serving life in

549
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 4: prison without par in what I think many people would

550
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 4: say is the worst prison in America. One of the

551
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 4: worst in the world. How did you find the fortitude

552
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 4: to inner strength, whatever it is, to be able to

553
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 4: get through this and to ultimately contact the Innocence Project

554
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 4: of New Orleans and continue to fight for your freedom.

555
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: I mean, I think almost anybody else would have just

556
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: given up and given in. That's not what happened. I mean,

557
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: here you are. Somehow or other, you managed to persevere

558
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 4: and triumph.

559
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just that one thing I can

560
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: always remember that I never thought of myself as just

561
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: a prison you know, of any kind. I was thankful

562
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 2: in the sense that I had been exposed to people

563
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 2: who believed in freedom. Like I said, the neighborhood I

564
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: grew up in had a history that I wasn't aware

565
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: of at the time. But the culture and climate of

566
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: everyday life then was of just you know, being self supportive,

567
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, to supporting yourself in a sense,

568
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: always thinking positive, always knowing that you have enough capability

569
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: pass it as anybody else, to do what you need

570
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: to do to make your life a successful one. And

571
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: so it didn't always seem that easy. But when I

572
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: was able to kind of like get over myself pity

573
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: or whatever. I always revert back to that that you know,

574
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: I am a person. I'm blessed to be able to

575
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: see here, smell, have all my lambs. You know, my

576
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: heart is beating fine, and so at least I can

577
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: have an encouraged word for somebody else and in turn

578
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: that would encourage me, because that's that's all I wanted

579
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: for my life to be, as you know, a difference

580
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: maker to somebody else.

581
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: Wow.

582
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 4: Well, let me ask you this too. Was there a

583
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 4: person or people inside Angola who inspired you to stay strong?

584
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: And it was a lot of people, And then outside Angola,

585
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: I didn't know anybody there. I was one of the youngest,

586
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: probably one of the smallest at the time, and so

587
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: you know, there was many people like I would get

588
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: written up and go to extending lock Down. That's where

589
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: I met, I guess, my most influential friends, because you know,

590
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: when you in solitary confinment on lockdown, you stand and

591
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: sell one man's sell for twenty three hours a day

592
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: and let you outside of that six x nine sell

593
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: into another caged area for an hour to take a

594
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: shower and do exercise and or socialize with other guys

595
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: on a tier with you, and so, like you said earlier,

596
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: I've always been like a mild mannered person, reserved, you know,

597
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: in a great sense, and so I was then, but

598
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 2: you couldn't be at that time because you dry yourself

599
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: insane just holding all that stuff in. One guy, in particular,

600
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: when I had my first experience on lockdown, that was

601
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: able to you know, converse with you know, bounce our

602
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: frustrations off each other and also encourage each other to

603
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: think positively about what we can do.

604
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: Which guy is that? Noel Brooks? Noel Brooks who's Angola.

605
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: You know, he helped me out a lot, and we

606
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: helped each other out and thinking about ways that we

607
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: could help ourselves and help out this.

608
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 1: So that just one, but you know there was many.

609
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 4: So Kristin, how did this impossible situation eventually get Rizaud?

610
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 4: How is he sitting here in front of us now?

611
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 7: Well, there are three pieces of new information that we

612
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 7: learned that really just completely undermined the case against Jerome

613
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 7: and proved his innocence. One is that there was a

614
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 7: nine to one to one complaint history, which is a

615
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 7: document that shows when a nine to one one call

616
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 7: comes in, and some of the initial information that comes

617
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 7: in from that caller and it's blocked off by minutes

618
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 7: of time, and the nine one one complaint history here

619
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 7: shows that the call came in from the Howard Johnson's lobby.

620
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 7: This is where the sweet sixteen party was, at a

621
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 7: hotel lobby. It was clearly in response to seeing Hikeim

622
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 7: Shabaz arrive in the lobby shot, and that call came

623
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 7: in at eleven thirty and the complaint history showed that

624
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 7: the police arrived at eleven thirty six, so six minutes later.

625
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 7: But the state's theory at trial was that somehow Jerome

626
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 7: shot everybody, ran out of the room, jumped over a fence,

627
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 7: hit a gun, and then returned to the room full

628
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 7: of eighty some odd witnesses and waited for the police

629
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 7: to arrive. And the only information that the jury heard

630
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 7: about the timing of the arrival of the police and

631
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 7: how possible that would be the window of time where

632
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 7: the gunman theoretically could have returned to this room, as

633
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 7: unbelievable as it sounds, was actually from Jerome himself. He

634
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 7: testified he was asked how long it took for the

635
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 7: police to arrive, and he said thirty to forty five minutes,

636
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 7: and probably the reason for that is that that's how

637
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 7: long it took for the detectives to arrive. Not the

638
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 7: uniformed officers that came in and sealed the room and

639
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 7: made sure no one left or returned, but the detectives

640
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 7: that actually interacted with the kids arrived thirty five minutes

641
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 7: after at twelve o five am, And so those are

642
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 7: people he interacted with. That's probably what he was recalling

643
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 7: when he testified to that. And there had been some

644
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 7: prior testimony earlier on in the trial that suggested that

645
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 7: there was an unusually long gap between the nine to

646
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 7: one to one caller between the shooting and the police arriving,

647
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 7: and so the jury heard the sort of thinking there

648
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 7: might have been an unusual circumstance where a crime scene

649
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 7: just sat unattended for a long period of time. And

650
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 7: theoretically it's so absurd to say, but the gunman may

651
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 7: have returned to the room, so that made it physically

652
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 7: possible for him to have potentially have come back. But

653
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 7: once we knew that the police had arrived six minutes later,

654
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 7: and they all testified that they arrived and they sealed

655
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 7: the room and no one left after that and no

656
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 7: one returned after that. That really changed the state's theory.

657
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 7: It undermined the state's theory. The other two pieces of

658
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 7: information relate to the witnesses, So the only evidence against

659
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 7: Jerome at trial were these two teenage witnesses who testified

660
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 7: that they saw him as the gunman. But what we

661
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 7: learned was that Hakim Shabaz first told the police that

662
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 7: he did not know who the gunman was, and that

663
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 7: the police said, Jerome shot you, and then he just

664
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 7: agreed only because it was consistent with rumors he had heard,

665
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 7: not from what he actually saw that night, but he

666
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 7: had just heard some rumors and the police were repeating

667
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 7: those rumors back to him, and he's a teenager, and

668
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 7: he went along with it, thinking he was doing the

669
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 7: right thing. Kevin Johnson, we know, initially saw the photo,

670
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 7: array saw Jerome's familiar face, didn't know Jerome's name, but

671
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 7: saw a familiar face and had seen the gunman and

672
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 7: excluded him. And the jury did hear that. The jury

673
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 7: did hear that. But the jury also heard this explanation

674
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 7: that when he said, oh, it can't be him, what

675
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 7: he meant was like, oh, I can't believe it was him.

676
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 7: That's what the jury heard, and that he made a

677
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 7: subsequent identification. But what we learned from talking to Kevin

678
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 7: was that he was brought back to the police station

679
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 7: with missus Landry, with his best friend's mother, the mother

680
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 7: of the boy who was killed, and she was upset

681
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 7: because she thought that the person who had shot her

682
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 7: son had been released from prison. As Jerome mentioned earlier,

683
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 7: he's under a lot of pressure. He blames some himself

684
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 7: for the death of Clarence, and so he just goes

685
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 7: along with what the police say. The police tell him

686
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,919
Speaker 7: that he's shown another photo array, a different photo array

687
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 7: this time. So the first one was just a set

688
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 7: of your book photos because the police didn't have a

689
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 7: photo of Jerome. Second time around, Jerome had been arrested,

690
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 7: so they made another second photo array of mugshots, and

691
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 7: again he's shown it. He does the same thing, puts

692
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 7: Drome's photo aside, and they say, who did you say

693
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 7: was the gunman? And at that point, Kevin had heard

694
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 7: rumors he had heard the name Jerome Morgan, so he

695
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 7: repeats the rumor. He says Jerome Morgan, But he doesn't

696
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 7: realize that the photo that he's putting aside and eliminating

697
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 7: is Jerome. So he has a name, but it's separate

698
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 7: from the face, and the police say, sure, it's not

699
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 7: this guy, pointing to Jerome's photo. That's Jerome Morgan. And

700
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 7: for him, well, he hurt again. It's just like Hachem.

701
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 7: He'd heard these rumors and now the police are reinforcing

702
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 7: these rumors, and so he agrees. And so both of

703
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 7: them went and testified at trial believing that they were

704
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 7: identifying the right person and not knowing that the police

705
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 7: were working off of the same rumors that they were

706
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 7: hearing and there was no other evidence behind that at all.

707
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 7: So when they testified, it was probably pretty convincing. I

708
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 7: wasn't there because they thought that they were doing the

709
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 7: right thing and that they were identifying the gunmen, when

710
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 7: in fact it was all the police telling them.

711
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 4: But then fast forward twenty years, yes, and they came clean.

712
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 7: Yes, so they didn't know. So again Jerome gets convicted.

713
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 7: They are not aware that there is no other evidence.

714
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 7: So they go along with their lives and then an

715
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,280
Speaker 7: investigator from our office talks to each of them separately

716
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 7: and he points out to them, did you know that

717
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 7: Jerome was in the room after the shooting, and neither

718
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 7: of them knew that, and so once there was a stain,

719
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 7: I don't know if that's the right word, but something

720
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 7: that kind of undermined their confidence that they had quote

721
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 7: unquote identified the right person. Then they started telling the

722
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 7: investigator about how those identifications came to happen that really

723
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 7: undermine their confidence in what they had done. They may

724
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 7: have known that they didn't really have a reason behind

725
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 7: identifying Jerome, or they may have known even that it

726
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 7: really wasn't the right person, but they thought they were

727
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 7: doing the right thing. And it wasn't until they learned

728
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 7: that the person they identified as the fleeing gunman was

729
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 7: in the room after the police arrived that really changed

730
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 7: their perspective, and so they came clean. They told this

731
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 7: true story of how they came to make the identifications.

732
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 7: It's not just a recantation, it's really an explanation of

733
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 7: how those identifications happened and what the police did to

734
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 7: make those false identifications happen.

735
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 4: At some point, the police went to these two witnesses

736
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 4: who now are whether it's their conscience or whether it's

737
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 4: this new information that's being provided to them, that they

738
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 4: are now being made aware that they were fed lies

739
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 4: by the police twenty years earlier, and that they played

740
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 4: a major role in locking Jeroam up for the rest

741
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 4: of his life. Based on being misled is a nice

742
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 4: way of putting it. Now, the authorities are really scrambling

743
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 4: to pack this conviction right, and what did they do

744
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 4: to these two guys? What did they threaten them with

745
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 4: in order to try to coerce them into not telling

746
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 4: the truth?

747
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 7: Well, both of them. Both of these witnesses consulted with

748
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 7: attorneys before they signed Affidavid's and before they provided testimony

749
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 7: in our post conviction hearing, so they knew that there

750
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 7: was a possibility of a charge when they chose to

751
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 7: get up on the stand and testify.

752
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: A perjury charge.

753
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 7: Yes, perjury charge, But they did, and they withstood direct

754
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 7: and cross examination back and forth. Their stories remained consistent

755
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 7: and based on that, plus the nine to one complaint

756
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 7: history that shows that Timeline Jerome's conviction was overturned and

757
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 7: so nothing happened to them initially, this state chose to

758
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 7: appeal that decision to an intermediate appellate court, and the

759
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 7: appellate court upheld the trial court's decision in a very lengthily,

760
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 7: clearly well thought out ruling. And after that ruling came down,

761
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 7: when it appeared, oh no, this granting of post conviction

762
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 7: relief is going to be upheld, the state then chose

763
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 7: to charge these two witnesses with perjury. I just think

764
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 7: the timing of it is interesting. It wasn't immediate. If

765
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 7: they really cared about protecting people against society against inconsistent statements,

766
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 7: they could have charged them with perjury back when they

767
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 7: signed these affidavits. But they did it after there was

768
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 7: a good signal that the decision to overturn Jerome's conviction

769
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 7: was going to be upheld and that there would be

770
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 7: a new trial.

771
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 4: And we know that there were two lawyers who represented

772
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 4: those two guys pro bono right yes, and spent years

773
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 4: actually defending them against this evil machine of New Orleans

774
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 4: justice or injustice, and ultimately they prevailed.

775
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 2: Another interesting fact that may not be too noticeable, but

776
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: at the same time, I don't know you know how

777
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: it happened in for his order, but it did also

778
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 2: filed to have the judge recused and forced him to

779
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: recuse himself. And so I end up in another section

780
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: of court with a judge that was pretty you know,

781
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: cool with the DA Yeah, Judge Franz Zibleich.

782
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 4: So they wanted to make sure they got a judge

783
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 4: who was going to give them the best chance of

784
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 4: winning and keeping you in prison. But none of that

785
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,479
Speaker 4: stuff worked because ultimately you won. What are the names

786
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 4: of those two lawyers, by the way, because I want

787
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 4: to give them a shout out for having spent all that.

788
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: Time, Jason Williams and BOBBYA.

789
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 4: Sportsburgh, So Jerome. When you finally prevailed, what was that like?

790
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 4: Because we talked about the misery and the heartbreak of

791
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 4: the whole thing. What was it like the moment when

792
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 4: you actually did you even believe it was happening?

793
00:41:58,120 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 6: Uh?

794
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe it was happening, But I often describe

795
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: it as just being overwhelmingly excited.

796
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you envision these.

797
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: Things, you know, all those years, and that's what holds

798
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 2: you up when you feeling like you can't make it

799
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: no more.

800
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 4: Give us a picture of the courtroom that day. What

801
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 4: were you wearing, what did it, what time of day

802
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 4: was it, Who was in the courtroom with you?

803
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: How did you react from the moment that I was

804
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: released from prison or jail.

805
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 2: I also had an ankle brason on too, so I

806
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: still felt incarcerated. But even in that moment, just being outside,

807
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: smelling the air of society, and you know, seeing my

808
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 2: friends who was there from it since day one, being

809
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: able to see them and hug them, and being able

810
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 2: to just change into some regular clues right there in

811
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 2: the street. It just was overwhelmingly exciting. When I exited prison,

812
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 2: they didn't have any.

813
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: Clues for me.

814
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 2: Of course they didn't keep my clue for twenty years,

815
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: but they're supposed to have your clothes that you went

816
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: into prison with waiting on you when you get out.

817
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: So I didn't have any clues.

818
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: There, but you were never supposed to get out right,

819
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: and so they gave me an oversized undershirt and some

820
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: oversized shots that looked like pants, just to be released with.

821
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: And so you know, my family and friends had few

822
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: articles clothing for me a change into. Once I got out,

823
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: Christian met me that evening. It was like six o'clock

824
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: on the fourth of February twenty fourteen, and so we

825
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: stayed there on on Dupre Street, just celebrating, just smiling

826
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: and hugging and you know, just taking in the new

827
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: era because there had been a long time coming.

828
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: For all of us. What do you eat? I wanted Popeyes,

829
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, New Orleans fried chicken, you know, and

830
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 1: I ain't going to you don't get.

831
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 4: Any of that, right, I mean, after twenty years of slop? Right,

832
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 4: how good does food taste?

833
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: Oh? It tastes wonderful.

834
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 4: You know.

835
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: It's I'm very you know, particular about what I eat.

836
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: So it makes me feel good that I have options, Yeah,

837
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: I because sometimes, you know, you have to go to

838
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 2: sleep Hongry. You know a lot of guys return home

839
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: and have cancer, and that's because of the slop that

840
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: they eat for so long, and so you know, you

841
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 2: have to kind of monitor that, you know, when you're

842
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 2: in prison, and it gets tough because you know, everybody

843
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: family is not well off enough to provide them with

844
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: money to spend to buy food from, you know, the

845
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 2: prison canteen or whatever.

846
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 4: And I'm glad you brought that up because there are

847
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 4: a number of cases here in Louisiana people who were

848
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,919
Speaker 4: exonerated after decades in prison just came out and died

849
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 4: of cancer shortly after they got out. And I think

850
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 4: that that has to be a contributing factor. And it's

851
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 4: also important to highlight and people are going to listen

852
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 4: and say, no, that's not true, because when I read this,

853
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 4: I was like, no, that can't be true. But it

854
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 4: is true that in Alabama they have a program where

855
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,760
Speaker 4: the sheriffs who own the jails of an an annual

856
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 4: budget for food and whatever's left over they get to keep,

857
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 4: not the sheriff's department, the sheriff themselves. So they've been

858
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 4: feeding the inmates there corn dogs all day, every day

859
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 4: because it's the cheapest thing you can get. And there's

860
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 4: a lawsuit taking place right now. You can't even make

861
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 4: this stuff up, and it's just it's sort of under

862
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 4: the radar. And of course with the current administration that

863
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 4: we have, they turn a blind eye to it or

864
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 4: they just endorse it. But on a state level, there

865
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 4: are a lot of changes being made now. Jerome, I

866
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 4: know you've been very outspoken in a very thoughtful way

867
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 4: about the issues of socialization and compensation. As far as

868
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 4: compensation goes, there's a crazy range of options different depending

869
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 4: on what state your wrongful conviction took place. In Louisiana,

870
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 4: we know has the worst criminal justice system in the

871
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 4: entire country, And as far as that goes as far

872
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 4: as far as socialization and compensation are concerned. What does

873
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 4: that look like for somebody like you who had their

874
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 4: entire well twenty years of their life taken away.

875
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: Well, I mean in reality, if I use myself as

876
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 2: an example, I wouldn't be surprised. I'd be in jail tomorrow,

877
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 2: you know, behind unpaid bills. I haven't received anything, if anything,

878
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: I've paid towards the same system. I pay taxes, you know,

879
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: because I work for wages that you know, I'm not

880
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 2: even able to afford all of the basic necessities that

881
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 2: I would need. I've paid for drug testing, I paid bond.

882
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: I had to pay twelve percent of twenty five thousand

883
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: dollars bond and just just continue or expenses that has

884
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: resulted from my situation. But it doesn't look good, and

885
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: that's why guys don't make it. Some guys result to

886
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: drug use, alcohol, They have to result the crime sometime

887
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: to take care of themselves. And so we are still

888
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: in the fight of and conversation for myself and also

889
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: civil action against prosecutor. Socialization is a struggle because that's

890
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: one of the silent killers. Social deprivation of guys in

891
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 2: prison I mean meaning that they don't know how to

892
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 2: communicate themselves to others that's not in prison with them

893
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 2: because they have been doing that for so long, basically

894
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: right amongst a fabric that excludes, you know, females, and

895
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 2: you know, with all the other challenges, that's probably the

896
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: heaviest challenge because you know, guys are excited now because

897
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: now they can socialize with females once they get out,

898
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: but there's no way to transition these guys into doing

899
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: that in a healthy way. And also people that don't

900
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: recognize as Silent Killer kind of misjudge or misunderstand or

901
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: forming incarcerated person's communication towards them, and so it just

902
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: create a whole bunch of confusion. A lot of guys

903
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: get mixed off of relationships and have to end up

904
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 2: going back to jail for domestic reasons, retaliatory reasons of

905
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 2: the person that they got into these intimate situations with,

906
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 2: and it causes a big problem. I just try to

907
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 2: be reminded of that every day. But being in prison

908
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 2: and being able to visit with people that's interning with

909
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 2: the Innocence Project and working alone with the Innocence Project

910
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: gave me the opportunity to exercise some social skills that

911
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: I would need, you know, once I was released.

912
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 4: So it's actually almost like some crazy through the looking

913
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 4: glass insanity that not only haven't you been compensated, but

914
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 4: you're paying the state for the privilege of having been

915
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 4: locked up for twenty years in Angola because I didn't

916
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 4: even realize you're paying for drug testing and the bond.

917
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 4: I mean that, don't get me started on that. That's

918
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 4: a whole other show. That's madness. And what we should

919
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:01,800
Speaker 4: be doing as a society is providing counselor psychologists or

920
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 4: whatever appropriate form of treatment. You know, we know a

921
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 4: lot of guys that come out have severe mental issues,

922
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 4: but we don't. We don't do any of that. You

923
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 4: have to sue to get your money, and we know

924
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 4: that in Louisiana there's a cap right.

925
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean that conversation here is a whole

926
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 2: another injustice Kristin.

927
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 4: What is the compensation statute in Louisiana? I mean, I

928
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 4: know it again, but I don't even like to say

929
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 4: it because I hear myself say and I don't even

930
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 4: believe myself saying it.

931
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 7: The Louisiana compensation Statute provides for twenty five thousand dollars

932
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 7: per year of wrongful incarceration, but it's capped at two

933
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 7: hundred and fifty thousand, so it's essentially capped at ten years.

934
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 7: I think we have one, maybe two clients who served

935
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 7: less than ten years. Everybody served more than ten years,

936
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 7: Drome served twice that, some have served three times that.

937
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 7: So you get compensated for just ten years, and it's

938
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,360
Speaker 7: only at twenty five thousand dollars. That's paid out in

939
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 7: twenty five thousand dollars increment. And this is all after

940
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 7: you get a judgment, which can take years. And then

941
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 7: there is something called compensation for loss of life opportunities,

942
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 7: and the idea there is to provide some money for education,

943
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 7: job skills training, and medical expenses. But that's set up

944
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 7: in such a way there's a theoretical eighty thousand dollars

945
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 7: pot for that. There's a time limit on using that money,

946
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 7: and the way it's set up is that you have

947
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 7: to spend the money before you get the money, and

948
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 7: so you walk out of prison with nothing, then you

949
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 7: wait years to receive that first twenty five thousand dollars check,

950
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 7: and then if you have medical expenses, You're expected to

951
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 7: front them before you get reimbursed, and that can take

952
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 7: just the reimbursement can take over a year. It's an

953
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 7: unfair system. It's fair to say.

954
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 4: It's cool, I mean, and it's important for people to

955
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 4: hear about it, especially from somebody like you, your own,

956
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 4: who's been through it and it's still going through it.

957
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 4: It seems like it never stops, by the way, I

958
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 4: want to say, in the innocence community, which is it

959
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 4: really is a community, right. There's innocence projects all over

960
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 4: the country and all over the world, but in that community,

961
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 4: the Innocence Project of New Orleans is considered one of

962
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 4: the gold standards of innocence work. So you were very fortunate,

963
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 4: much more fortunate than probably dozens of guys that you

964
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 4: know that are in Gola who deserve a need a break.

965
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 4: But yet you get out and you're still facing this

966
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 4: incredible mountain to climb. There needs to be a whole

967
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 4: paradigm shift, the idea that people like yourselves who have

968
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 4: been through no fault of their own, ground up by

969
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 4: the system and then come out and it's like, you know,

970
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 4: you deserve a big fucking hug from society and like

971
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 4: a program. You know, no one's saying you should get

972
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 4: like the minute you walk out, you should get a

973
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 4: mansion and a thing and whatever. Right, but a fair shake,

974
00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 4: I think is what most of the guys would want.

975
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: I would suggest me and.

976
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: You know, in the spirit of justice, that we find

977
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 2: ways to put them in position to use that experience positively,

978
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: use those sufferings or whatever they've been through to help

979
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: somebody else cope through it and not have to fall

980
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: victim to it. And if we can understand as a society,

981
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 2: then you know, the money that we worried about far

982
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: as you know, this person getting to match in a

983
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 2: expensive car, what would be a concern, because these people

984
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 2: will be able to afford those things for themselves as

985
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 2: they seem to need them, you know, because you put

986
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: them in a position where they can make it earn

987
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 2: honest living, doing something that could turn whatever they have

988
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: to heal from and relating it to somebody else and

989
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: helping them go through it.

990
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: And not end up being a victim of it.

991
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 4: That's very well said, and I think those words are

992
00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 4: really important. Before we wrap up, is there any last

993
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 4: thoughts that you am about anything that you want to

994
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 4: share with the audience.

995
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts,

996
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 2: but I mean, but to be shot, the one thing

997
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 2: that I will say, kind of like a capital I

998
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: just mentioned about us thinking of justice in that way,

999
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 2: is that, you know, the just shall live by faith.

1000
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: The just shall live by faith. And I'm speaking of

1001
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: all of us. The people that I know that interested

1002
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 2: and invested in justice live by faith in the sense

1003
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: that they feel they have the faith that my good

1004
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 2: could harm the wrong in the world. And so we

1005
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 2: have to believe that good will harm the wrong in

1006
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: the world. And so we have to approach everything with

1007
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 2: good nature or good spirit, not the manipulative or conniving

1008
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 2: or deceitful, you know, or selfish. That we have to

1009
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: come to the table of life with the faith and

1010
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 2: goodness of faith, and positivity faith and groot of faith,

1011
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 2: in togetherness, of faith, in equality, and that's the only

1012
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,879
Speaker 2: way that we're gonna live in a peaceful world. Then

1013
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 2: you will see that there has no room for selfishness

1014
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 2: or any inequality or disparities amongst humanity.

1015
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 4: Wow, I don't even know what to say, and people

1016
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 4: who listen know I'm rarely at a loss for words.

1017
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 4: But all I can say after that is to thank

1018
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 4: both of you for being here. You've been listening to

1019
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 4: a special New Orleans edition of Wrong for Conviction. You

1020
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 4: heard me and our guests today are Jerome Morgan and

1021
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 4: Kristin Winstrom, and thank you both for being here and

1022
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 4: sharing your story.

1023
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: Thank you Jason. Thank you appreciate this opportunity.

1024
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 4: Thank you, Jason, don't forget to give us a fantastic

1025
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 4: review wherever you get your podcasts.

1026
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: It really helps.

1027
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 4: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

1028
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 4: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1029
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 4: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1030
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 4: to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate

1031
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 4: and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,

1032
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,919
Speaker 4: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show

1033
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 4: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

1034
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 4: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

1035
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 4: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

1036
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 4: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

1037
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 4: association with Signal Company Number one