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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're not

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Speaker 1: judging our neighbors who still have holiday lights up. Seriously,

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Speaker 1: am I book, You're allowed to keep them up till

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Speaker 1: the start of daylight savings time before I start giving

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Speaker 1: your house a little sideye and frankly this year with

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Speaker 1: gestures wildly at everything happening, you can leave them up

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Speaker 1: all day a year if it makes you happy. Joy

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Speaker 1: where we can find it people. It's Friday, January third,

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Speaker 1: Happy first Friday of the year. Today, we're revisiting my

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Speaker 1: convo with Rose Evelyth, host of the Tested podcast. We

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Speaker 1: talked to them back in August about the history of

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Speaker 1: gender verification testing, how it's affected athletes in competition at

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Speaker 1: the paras Olympics, and the quote unquote dangers that inexact

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Speaker 1: sciences seek to protect women athletes from. That conversation's coming

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Speaker 1: up right after this stick around. We're joined now by

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Speaker 1: Rose Eveleth, who uses they them pronouns as a writer

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Speaker 1: and producer who explores how humans tangle with science and technology.

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Speaker 1: They're the creator podcast network flash Forward Presents, and the

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Speaker 1: host of Tested, a new podcast series from CBC and

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Speaker 1: NPRS Embedded about the past, present, and future of so

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Speaker 1: called gender verification tests in elite athletics aka track and

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Speaker 1: field fun fact. Rose is an artist who works with glass, ceramic, wood, plastic, fabric,

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Speaker 1: and more, and they're in Paris for vacation, but a

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Speaker 1: major boxing story has them doing more interviews than boat

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Speaker 1: cruises down the Sein. The one bonus is no ecoal

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Speaker 1: Lie hopefully. Rose thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Yes, I am very pleased to at least

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Speaker 2: as far as I know currently not have ECOLA.

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Speaker 1: I want to just start with how long you spent

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Speaker 1: on this podcast, because first of all, it's incredible. I

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Speaker 1: listened to all of it. I cannot recommend it enough.

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Speaker 1: Why was this topic so compelling to you? And why

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Speaker 1: did you fight so hard for people to hear it?

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Speaker 2: This story feels to me like it's about so much

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Speaker 2: more than just you know, who gets to compete at

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Speaker 2: the Olympics, right? I think this story is about these

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Speaker 2: big questions, not just about fairness, but also about how

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Speaker 2: we organize the world. And you know what you do

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Speaker 2: when you learn that something that you thought was true

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Speaker 2: isn't true, like you know, in this case, human sex biology,

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Speaker 2: and none of us like to be wrong. We don't

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Speaker 2: like it. It's not fun. And also, especially in this case,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're learning that the way you thought about

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Speaker 2: the world is incorrect, and not only that, but also

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Speaker 2: maybe the way you thought about the world actually was

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Speaker 2: incorrect in such a way that it hurt people. And

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Speaker 2: I think that that's a really uncomfortable thing for anybody

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Speaker 2: to have to grapple with. And so I think what

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Speaker 2: in this story, what you're seeing over and over again

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Speaker 2: is humans reacting to that and then taking different paths

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Speaker 2: and making different choices about what to then do with

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Speaker 2: that information. And that, to me is a really compelling

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Speaker 2: story and I just I don't know, I just couldn't

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Speaker 2: give it up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm glad you didn't, because it's so so

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Speaker 1: worthwhile to listen to. I want to before we even

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Speaker 1: get into the details of the series, just make sure

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Speaker 1: the listeners understand the focus and the issue, and specifically

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Speaker 1: that the focus is on DSD athletes and how that

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Speaker 1: differs from trans athletes, and also how that differs from intersex,

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Speaker 1: which it was a relatively common term before and now

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Speaker 1: they're all their own separate things. So can you help

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Speaker 1: us at least start by understanding.

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Speaker 2: That, yeah, right, it is I think confusing and complicated.

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Speaker 2: So and we had a lot of internal discussions about

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Speaker 2: the language to use on this show because, as you say,

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Speaker 2: you know, intersex is a term that is a sort

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Speaker 2: of more broad umbrella term for people who sort of

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Speaker 2: fall in between perhaps male and female. But it used

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Speaker 2: to be a medical term. It has now sort of

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Speaker 2: been reclaimed as more of an identity term, like you know, queer.

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Speaker 2: It's something you use sort of claim for yourself, and

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Speaker 2: you can't really tell someone that they are intersex, and

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Speaker 2: that is a really powerful word for some people, and

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Speaker 2: other people don't connect with it. Then there's this DSD

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Speaker 2: differences of sex development, which is a medical term that

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Speaker 2: doctors use, and some intersex folks hate because it medicalizes

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Speaker 2: something that they say, you know, there's nothing medically wrong

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Speaker 2: with me, this is how I was born. I'm totally healthy,

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Speaker 2: which is very valid. And then you have you know,

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Speaker 2: hyper androgenic, which just means high testosterone. And then obviously

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Speaker 2: there's trans athletes, which are athletes who have transitioned to gender.

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Speaker 2: And so there's a lot of confusion, I think, on

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Speaker 2: this topic around these different definitions and even internally, you know,

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Speaker 2: we talked a lot about how to refer to so

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Speaker 2: one of the athletes, all the athletes in my podcast

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Speaker 2: don't use the word intersex for themselves, and so we

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Speaker 2: don't call them intersects because it's not a word they

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Speaker 2: use for themselves. But also they don't really call themselves

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Speaker 2: DSD athletes. That's the term that like World Athletics or

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Speaker 2: sort of sport organizations like the ioc US, and they

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Speaker 2: actually don't, I mean, they don't have a term for

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Speaker 2: themselves that they use because they don't really they don't

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Speaker 2: think of themselves as different, right, They've never you know,

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Speaker 2: all the women I spoke with for the series didn't

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Speaker 2: know there was anything different about them until they had

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Speaker 2: to be tested because of this athletics policy, and suddenly

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Speaker 2: are being told by people that they don't really know

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Speaker 2: or often don't really understand that actually there's something different

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Speaker 2: about you have this thing, and it's all very baffling

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Speaker 2: and bewildering to them. And so I think it's really

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Speaker 2: important to note that, you know, intersex DSD differences of

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Speaker 2: sexual sex development or sometimes people will say athletes with

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Speaker 2: sex variations, variations and sex biology, those are that is

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Speaker 2: a different category of people. Then trans athletes, there can't.

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Speaker 2: You can be trans and intersex. You know, both things

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Speaker 2: can be true. But in general, when we talk about athletics,

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Speaker 2: there's two groups, and the rules around them are different,

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Speaker 2: and some of the considerations around them are also different.

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Speaker 1: So when we're talking about DSD, athletes who grew up

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Speaker 1: as girls identify as girls, are competing against girls and

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden have a quote unquote gender

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Speaker 1: verification test. This has happened for a long time in

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Speaker 1: a variety of ways. But when and why did this

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Speaker 1: practice start of believing that girls and women needed to

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Speaker 1: be tested in order to be sure that they were

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Speaker 1: competing in the right case category.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the I think most I don't

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Speaker 2: know surprising things that I learned, and maybe one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons I couldn't stop thinking about the story, which

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Speaker 2: is that, you know, I think a lot of us

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Speaker 2: think of this as very modern. It's a scientific test.

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Speaker 2: It actually goes all the way back to basically the

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Speaker 2: beginning of women's competition in the Olympics. So in the

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Speaker 2: modern Olympics, women are allowed to compete in track and field.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen twenty eight, that's the first time that you

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Speaker 2: really get them on the track. They're allowed to compete

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Speaker 2: in more quote unquote feminine sports like tennis and swimming

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Speaker 2: before that, but track and field is when they start

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Speaker 2: really you know, getting into the sports that were perceived

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Speaker 2: at the time as being very masculine, very manly. And

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Speaker 2: as soon as that happens, literally nineteen twenty eight, that

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Speaker 2: first games, you immediately see commentators and spectators and coaches

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Speaker 2: saying that's not a woman, that's not a woman. That

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Speaker 2: woman looks too strong, she looks too muscular. The woman

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Speaker 2: who came in second in the eight hundred meters was

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Speaker 2: a Japanese woman named Tomy Keenway, and people in the

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Speaker 2: newspaper wrote about her saying, like she has all the

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Speaker 2: power of a halfback. She should play for the Chicago Bears.

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Speaker 2: Is what you're hearing. And so very quickly you hear

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Speaker 2: calls for testing, some kind of examination we need to do,

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Speaker 2: you know, an exam to see that these are really women.

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Speaker 2: And in nineteen thirty six, that's when the first official

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Speaker 2: sex testing policy comes on the books, and it's very vague. It's,

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Speaker 2: you know, if there are questions of a physical nature,

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Speaker 2: and they never really say what questions. Those are what

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Speaker 2: you would do to answer them. It's all very vague,

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Speaker 2: but that's when we start, and you see. If you're

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Speaker 2: interested in this early history, I highly recommend Michael Waters's

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Speaker 2: book The Other Olympians. It kind of goes into a

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Speaker 2: lot of this in a lot more detail, and it's

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Speaker 2: a great book. And so it really starts in nineteen

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Speaker 2: thirty six, and then you see these waves and this era.

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Speaker 2: We joked when producing the podcast that it really feels

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Speaker 2: like whack a mole or like this weird groundhog day

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Speaker 2: where you're just seeing the same conversations popping up over

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Speaker 2: and over again with slightly different trappings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that manifests in some of the most fascinating stories.

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Speaker 1: You talk to athletes who had these quote unquote or

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Speaker 1: so called nude parades, where literally before competition, they would

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Speaker 1: have to strip down naked and have strangers look at

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Speaker 1: their genitals to ensure that they were women. They would,

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Speaker 1: for a very long stretch, have to carry cards that

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Speaker 1: said that they were women and bring it along with

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Speaker 1: them to every competition. So this goes on for many years,

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Speaker 1: and this is not surprising to anyone who understands how

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Speaker 1: much women's bodies and the roles and places they're allowed

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Speaker 1: in society have been policed for eternity. But at one

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Speaker 1: point there was a stretch where women were allowed to

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Speaker 1: compete mostly unfettered, and then the arrival of Castor Semenya

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Speaker 1: stirs up this new era of regulation. So can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about that important pivot point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so scientists fight for, like you say, thirty years.

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Speaker 2: They're writing all these letters, they're begging the IOC and

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Speaker 2: World Athletics to drop it, and they do in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine is like, you know, as he finally gives up.

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Speaker 2: And then yeah, there is this ten year period where

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Speaker 2: there's actually it's sort of similar to that nineteen thirty

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Speaker 2: six moment where there is a kind of very vague

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Speaker 2: policy that basically says, you know, if you really think

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Speaker 2: there is a man pretending to be a woman to

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Speaker 2: win medals on the track, you can do some kind

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Speaker 2: of examination. They don't say it quite that way, but

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Speaker 2: they kind of say that same thing. If there is

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Speaker 2: a suspicion, you can do an examination. And there were

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Speaker 2: athletes before Castor who were excluded from sports because of this,

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Speaker 2: but Caster is really the moment where it breaks into

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Speaker 2: this sort of international discussion. So cast goes to the

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Speaker 2: World Championships in two thousand and nine in Berlin. She

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Speaker 2: wins the eight hundred meters. She runs this incredible race,

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Speaker 2: and instead of being able to celebrate being the world champion,

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Speaker 2: she gets thrust into this very intense media cycle quite

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Speaker 2: similar to what we're seeing today with these boxers, where

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Speaker 2: people are asking questions about her gender, her body, her sex.

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Speaker 2: Is she really a woman? You hear the head of

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Speaker 2: the Athletics Federation say something like, you know, yes she

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Speaker 2: is a woman, but maybe not one hundred percent, which

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Speaker 2: is almost identical to what people said about Ptomi Keanway

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Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty eight and similar to what you're hearing today,

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Speaker 2: And that sort of sparks this new era of regulation

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Speaker 2: that we go from chromosomes in from like the sixties

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Speaker 2: through the two thousand basically to now we're sort of

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Speaker 2: in this era of testosterone, at least in track and field,

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Speaker 2: and this idea that we need to test and regulate

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Speaker 2: these women's testosterone levels because that is giving them a

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Speaker 2: quote unquote unfair advantage. And we can talk about whether

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Speaker 2: that's true or not, but that sort of Castor's case

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Speaker 2: sort of launches us into this new era where we

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Speaker 2: now again are suddenly deciding that, oh no, we do

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Speaker 2: need to have tests, we do need to have regulations,

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Speaker 2: and we're kind of doing that whole cycle again.

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Speaker 1: And worth noting that castors Semenia, for those who don't know,

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Speaker 1: is the South African middle distance runner. And in particular,

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Speaker 1: there are certain events and there are certain people who

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Speaker 1: tend to be most targeted by these rules and regulations.

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Speaker 1: They are not uniform across the board, or at least

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Speaker 1: for a long time, they weren't until more recently when

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Speaker 1: it's started to be more widespread. Correct me if I'm

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Speaker 1: wrong here, But at one point it was very kind

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Speaker 1: of random, even in the sports, where they would kind

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Speaker 1: of look and say, we think testosterone is most beneficial

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Speaker 1: in say pole vault, but a predominantly white event like

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Speaker 1: pole vault was not regulated, and then in other events

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Speaker 1: that were predominantly won by black athletes who win of color,

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Speaker 1: we are seeing a lot more crackdowns. We have to

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Speaker 1: take a quick break plenty more with Rose coming up

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Speaker 1: right after this. You look at the athletes that you

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Speaker 1: spoke to who have been sidelined by these tests and regulations,

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Speaker 1: they are African women. For the most part, that tends

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Speaker 1: to be who gets most targeted. And I'm wondering how

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Speaker 1: they were personally affected by this beyond just the track,

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Speaker 1: because you spend a lot of the podcast talking about

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Speaker 1: their fight to become eligible again, or their fight against

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Speaker 1: the right relations, their fight to get their careers back.

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Speaker 1: But what about as human beings, because as you said,

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Speaker 1: most of these women do not know they have DSDs.

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Speaker 1: Most do not have the resources or the medical teams

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Speaker 1: to help them through surgeries or hormone therapy. Most are

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Speaker 1: dependent on their careers for money and finances. Like what

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Speaker 1: did you see these women go through? As you were

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Speaker 1: researching and reporting on them?

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Speaker 2: It was so challenging because you know, there are two

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Speaker 2: women who I largely focus on on the show, and

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Speaker 2: I talked to a lot of women for the series,

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Speaker 2: but we really focus on Christine Bauma Fromnamibia and Maximali

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Speaker 2: from Kenya, and I think that the impact on them

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Speaker 2: is is it touches almost everything, right, So you know,

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Speaker 2: I think often when you talk about this story, people

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Speaker 2: really focus on the medicalization, right, the fact that they're

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Speaker 2: being asked for you know, Christine is taking these drugs

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Speaker 2: they have these side effects. You know, some women you know,

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Speaker 2: opted to go for irreversible surgeries. I spoke with, you know,

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Speaker 2: Annette the Geisa from Uganda who had a surgery that

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Speaker 2: no one made sure she understood what was going on,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, there was really terrible medical trans there.

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Speaker 2: And that's all very important and very real, but also

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Speaker 2: there's this emotional toll that I think it is almost

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Speaker 2: hard to explain and describe because these women, you know,

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Speaker 2: like we said, they've they've never thought there was anything

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Speaker 2: different about them. All of a sudden, they're told, actually,

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Speaker 2: you're too fast, you've raised suspicions, or you look a

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Speaker 2: certain way, you've raised suspicions. We need to do these tests.

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Speaker 2: And then you're told by someone who often these women

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Speaker 2: have never met before. Right, you get a call from

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Speaker 2: some person that you don't know who is telling you, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I know that you've thought that you're a woman your

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Speaker 2: whole life, but like, actually you kind of fall into

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Speaker 2: this other category and you're getting all of this frankly

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Speaker 2: quite technical, quite confusing information. These are women who you

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Speaker 2: know don't have access to, like, you know, education in

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Speaker 2: the way that you know you might might help you

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Speaker 2: understand some of this biological lingo, right, DSD, you know,

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Speaker 2: like five alpha reductas like you like, I'm a science

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Speaker 2: reporter and sometimes I read these things and I go crosside, right,

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Speaker 2: And so to see even.

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Speaker 1: The doctor that you spoke to, Yeah, Christine's coach's wife

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Speaker 1: is a doctor, and she said I could not make

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Speaker 1: my way through the paperwork that they sent to try

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Speaker 1: to understand exactly how to affect her hormones in a

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Speaker 1: safe way. And I'm a doctor, right, and they exactly

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Speaker 1: athletes to do it without any help totally.

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Speaker 2: And then also you have the like cultural piece of this,

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Speaker 2: which is that you know, many of these athletes are

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Speaker 2: from places that don't you know, not that there's really

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Speaker 2: anywhere in the world that's like incredibly enlightened on a

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Speaker 2: lot of this, but you know, there are some athletes

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Speaker 2: that I spoke with who come from places where it's

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Speaker 2: actually quite dangerous to suddenly be outed as somehow part

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Speaker 2: of you know, the LGBTQ community or QIA community. And

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Speaker 2: this is actually a big point of discussion and part

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Speaker 2: of the reason why we were really clear in the

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Speaker 2: series that these are not trans athletes, because you know,

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Speaker 2: when I was talking to these athletes to try and

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Speaker 2: get them to talk to me for the series and

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Speaker 2: sort of earn their trust and explain with the show

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Speaker 2: is about. One of their first questions always was are

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Speaker 2: you gonna lump me in the trans athletes? Because that

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Speaker 2: is unsafe for me. And I think sometimes you know,

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Speaker 2: when you come from like you know, I'm from the

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Speaker 2: United States, like there's this very well meaning, you know,

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Speaker 2: upper class liberal like solidarity and we should have like intersectionality,

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Speaker 2: and that is so true in theory, but on the ground,

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Speaker 2: you know, you can't. You can't do that until it's

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Speaker 2: safe for people. And so you know, we that part

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Speaker 2: of why we don't talk call them intersects, right, don't

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Speaker 2: you know? We don't use some of these words. And

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Speaker 2: so you I heard all these stories from these women

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Speaker 2: where you know, they go home to their home countries

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Speaker 2: and people come up to them and they say, I

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Speaker 2: heard you're a man. You know, there are now suddenly,

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Speaker 2: you know, an endless number of people on the Internet

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Speaker 2: who feel emboldened to make comments about these women's bodies

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Speaker 2: under every picture on Instagram or every video, and also

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Speaker 2: to say, you know that thing that you've been working through,

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Speaker 2: like for your whole life. You know, in Christine Bouma's case,

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Speaker 2: you're you go to the Olympics, you win a silver medal,

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Speaker 2: and people are saying you don't really deserve that, You're

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Speaker 2: not really a woman, making absolutely, in my opinion, unhinged

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Speaker 2: comments about like what your genitals might look like. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is like what you're surrounded with all the time,

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Speaker 2: and it just takes a toll on people because they

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Speaker 2: just are under this constant scrutiny.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I think, you know, it's worth noting that

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Speaker 1: sometimes in an effort to defend DSD athletes, people will say, oh,

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Speaker 1: but they're not trans, and unfortunately what that does is

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Speaker 1: further demonize the trans community. That distinction is important, not

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Speaker 1: only for the safety of these athletes in some places,

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Speaker 1: but I do think the journey is different than one

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Speaker 1: of someone who believes their identity does not match the

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Speaker 1: sex with which they were born. I think one of

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Speaker 1: the things that was so sad to listen to was

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Speaker 1: these surgeries are hormone therapies. To me, it did not

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Speaker 1: sound like there was a lot of research or care

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Speaker 1: put into understanding how they would affect the athletes side effects,

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Speaker 1: bodily changes, fatigue, ability to perform long term effects on

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Speaker 1: their bodies, and then the lack of support they were

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Speaker 1: getting from federations as they work to become eligible and

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Speaker 1: try to qualify and compete with their new bodies. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned the one athlete who she didn't know that she

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Speaker 1: was going to be cut when she agreed to surgery

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Speaker 1: for internal gonads. She thought that there was some sort

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Speaker 1: of shot or something that was going to affect her.

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Speaker 1: She didn't realize when she woke up she was going

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Speaker 1: to have stitches and a scar. To me that if

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the average person being forced through all

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Speaker 1: of this, I think sometimes we lease the humanity in

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Speaker 1: pursuit of using the right terms or understanding the science.

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Speaker 1: But these are human.

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Speaker 2: Beings, absolutely absolutely, and you know it's We talked to C. C. Telfer,

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Speaker 2: who is a trans athlete who wrote a great book

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Speaker 2: about sort of her quest to become an Olympian, and

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Speaker 2: she made the point, you know too, that like you know,

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Speaker 2: in terms of the distinction between these two groups, like

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Speaker 2: these women don't this there's something being told this, this

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Speaker 2: is being projected onto them, like you are different now,

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Speaker 2: whereas if you're a trans woman or a trans person,

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Speaker 2: you know that about yourself, right, Like that is the

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Speaker 2: thing that you have thought like a lot about, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean, It's a thing that you're taking

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Speaker 2: a lot of space in your mind. And it's not

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Speaker 2: something that someone projects onto your hands to you or

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Speaker 2: says like, you know, surprise, you're actually this ye autonomy

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Speaker 2: in it. And to your point about the medications, it

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Speaker 2: was really shocking to me because you know, I would

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Speaker 2: ask people, you know, I'd ask these doctors, you know,

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Speaker 2: what do we know in terms of the side effects

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Speaker 2: of these drugs on specifically you know, women with sex variations, right,

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Speaker 2: women with this specific DSD, right, like five of four reductastes,

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Speaker 2: Like do we know right? Because their bodies are constructing

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Speaker 2: slightly differently, that's what we're talking about. Do we know

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Speaker 2: that the side effects that there might be? And over

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Speaker 2: and over again I heard no, we don't, because we

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Speaker 2: don't give these drugs these women like in this way, like,

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Speaker 2: this is not a thing that we're doing medically, right.

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Speaker 2: The World Medical Association has come out against this, The

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Speaker 2: American Medical Association has come out against this, in part

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Speaker 2: because there is no medical necessity here. There is no

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Speaker 2: reason to be doing this except for quote unquote fairness

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Speaker 2: in sport.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that brings me back to the main issue

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Speaker 1: that I've had with trying to discuss issues around both transparticipation, DSD,

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Speaker 1: everything else, is that it seems that science is still

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out so much of it. It seems

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Speaker 1: like we don't have a definitive answer on how much

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Speaker 1: of an advantage testosterone gives. Does it feel to you

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Speaker 1: right now? Like the rules and regulations are based on

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Speaker 1: the most up to date and complete science and are

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Speaker 1: being done with that, you know, generosity, earnestness, and genuine

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Speaker 1: intent to match the science.

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Speaker 2: This is the ten thousand dollars question, right, Like everyone's right, like,

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Speaker 2: just follow the science, Just follow the science, you know,

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Speaker 2: which is I think a great thought. There has been

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Speaker 2: some science. So this is also one of the points

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Speaker 2: I think that gets confusing on the story when you

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Speaker 2: first encounter it, because what you see is that both

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Speaker 2: sides say the science supports our side, and so when

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Speaker 2: you're looking at that as a layperson or even as

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Speaker 2: a science journalist, you're like, well, wait a minute, like

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Speaker 2: that that can't be true, Like both of you can't

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Speaker 2: be you know, that doesn't make sense and I think

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Speaker 2: that you know there, I think that there is, you know,

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Speaker 2: a way in which you can craft the question you

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Speaker 2: are asking to get the answer that you want via science, right,

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Speaker 2: And this is the thing, you know, I love science,

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Speaker 2: I'm a science reporter. I'm a huge science nerd. But like,

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Speaker 2: there are lots of ways to do things to make

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Speaker 2: the science seem like it supports you. So what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing right now is that World Athletics will say we

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Speaker 2: absolutely are following the most up to date science. What

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Speaker 2: our logic is is that these athletes are quote unquote

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Speaker 2: biological males. And so all of the data that we

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Speaker 2: have on CIS men and their performance in sport applies

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Speaker 2: to these women. And you have you know, intersects, health experts, doctors,

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Speaker 2: you know, people on that site saying, no, these are

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Speaker 2: not equivalent populations. You can't these are apples and oranges.

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Speaker 2: You can't just take this data. You can't decide these

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Speaker 2: are actually biological men and then take this data and

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Speaker 2: apply it to them. That just is not good science.

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Speaker 2: And so then when you think, okay, well what would

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Speaker 2: the ideal study be, right like, and this is what

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Speaker 2: the IOC argues that you should be doing is that

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Speaker 2: you if you're going to have a policy. You know,

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Speaker 2: they put out their Framework for Inclusion in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: one one and they say, if you're going to have

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Speaker 2: a policy, and you know, you can have a policy,

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Speaker 2: if you want to have a policy, you know, you

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Speaker 2: get to make the rules of your sport. But if

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Speaker 2: you're going to have a policy, it does need to

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Speaker 2: be based on robust science that is based on the

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Speaker 2: population that we're actually talking about and the sport that

431
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 2: we're actually talking about at the performance level that we're

432
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 2: talking about. And so what that means is that what

433
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: you really want to do, if you really want to

434
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 2: say what percent advantage does having one of these DSD

435
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 2: conditions give you if you are one of these women,

436
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 2: what you'd want to do is you want to look

437
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 2: at those women, look at their performance, and look at

438
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,760
Speaker 2: their testosterone level and compare them to non DSD athletes.

439
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 2: That study has not been done. The only people who

440
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 2: could do that study is World Athletics because World Athletics

441
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: is the only one that really has that kind of

442
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 2: robust data. Even then, it wouldn't be complete because there

443
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 2: are probably people competing who have these DSDs who are

444
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: just not that good and so haven't been flagged for testing.

445
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 2: But at the very least you would do that. They

446
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 2: have not done that. I don't know why.

447
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: What's the most generous answer as to why, what's the

448
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: most generous.

449
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 2: It's the most generous answer is that it is not

450
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: easy to do in the sense that you don't it's

451
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 2: your sample size is going to be small, right, And

452
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 2: in science we talk about this all the time, right, like,

453
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 2: if you have a small sample size, the conclusions that

454
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 2: you can draw from that are limited. And you know,

455
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 2: World Athletics likes to say these women are vastly overrepresented

456
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: in sports. They kind of try and insinuate that they're everywhere,

457
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: that they're taking over, that they're, you know, winning everything.

458
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,479
Speaker 2: And I think that actually we're not talking about that

459
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 2: many people in the grand scheme of things. And so

460
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: if I think the most generous interpretation here is that

461
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: even if you were to do that study and you

462
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: could do it, I think you at they say it's

463
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 2: partially a privacy concern. I think there's absolutely a way

464
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 2: to do the study with anonymised data. We see this

465
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 2: in health research all the time. Drug companies have figured

466
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 2: out how to do this like this is the thing

467
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,119
Speaker 2: you can do, but you can, you know. I think

468
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 2: that even if you could do it in a way

469
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 2: that was anonymized and private and respected athletes privacy, I

470
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: think that you run into just like a power problem

471
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 2: in terms of like how much data you actually have.

472
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: That's the most generous interpretation. The least generous is that

473
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: they don't like the answer. And so that's what I've

474
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,880
Speaker 2: heard other people say is that don't ask the question

475
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,479
Speaker 2: if you don't want the answer.

476
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to open Pandora's boxer. I just want

477
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: to mention how fascinating the idea is that you would

478
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: have a chromosomal difference that then would mean that you

479
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: are a biological male, even if you had a vagina

480
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: and breast and all the other like the idea that

481
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: anywhere else in the world we would be like, well,

482
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: you're a guy because of that understanding. The way that

483
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: society reacts to everything else is just like It's why

484
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: this is so difficult, because there is this desire to

485
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: create a binary where there isn't one with human bodies.

486
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: And that's why when we try to create fairness in

487
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 1: women's sports, we start regulating natural advantage while we will

488
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: never do that for men. We have to take one

489
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 1: more break. The conclusion of my conversation with Rose is

490
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: on the other side, stick around. You talk in the

491
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,120
Speaker 1: podcast about these roughly twenty genetic mutations that help make

492
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 1: athletes elite. We've long talked about Michael Phelps's ability to

493
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: process lactic acid and a variety of other things. And

494
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: when men get really good, we just expand the record

495
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: books for how great they are. And it feels like

496
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: this artificial cap on female greatness or our expectation for

497
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: what women can do, is ultimately what drives this, because

498
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: you would never ask a man whose genetic advantages help

499
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: him be better in sport to take drugs to stop them,

500
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 1: but we do that here. I guess that's a long

501
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: winded way of saying that it feels like some advantages

502
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,479
Speaker 1: we do not regulate. And the explanation for why we

503
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: do regulate these sex related advantages is because sport are

504
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: binary and separated by sex. What's your response to that.

505
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sports can be binary and separated by

506
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 2: sex and not require sex testing. The thing that people,

507
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: the thing that makes sports require sex testing is this

508
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,239
Speaker 2: idea that women's sports need to be protected right. And

509
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 2: so there is this idea that the women's category is

510
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: a protected category, the men's category is not right. And

511
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 2: so this idea, and I think this really gets out

512
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 2: some of these bigger issues of like who is doing

513
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: the protecting and why and from what? And there's this,

514
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: I think deep paternalism that is built into a lot

515
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: of this, which is that women need to be protected from.

516
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: And this is where it gets I think often a

517
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 2: little bit confusing when you ask people to articulate, which is,

518
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: what are we protecting women from here? And the answer is,

519
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 2: I guess we're protecting women from other women who might

520
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: have male life like advantages, which is sort of it

521
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 2: doesn't totally add up because you know, again, these women

522
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: are not men, and there's in fact, no real evidence

523
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: that they have quote unquote male like advantages. Caster Semenia

524
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: does not even have the world record in the women's

525
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: eight hundred meters. She's the fourth fastest woman in history.

526
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: You know, Christine Boma didn't win the gold medal, she

527
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 2: won the silver. Right, these women are not out here

528
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 2: running or performing at quote unquote male levels. And so

529
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: that I think that sort of there's this idea we

530
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 2: have to protect the female category, and this is in

531
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: the name of protection.

532
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: And also who's not being protected by the choices that

533
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: they're making, which would include the women that you spoke to.

534
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: Also what if you go back, And of course during

535
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: the podcast we get all this context of the idea

536
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: that even early on in competition, the fear was that

537
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: women would become men if they ran too fast and

538
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: worked out too hard. And that's part of the problem

539
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: is that we've associated quote unquote manly characteristics with things

540
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: that are just good for you in sports. So when

541
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: men who look the most stereotypically manly and presumably have

542
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: the highest testosterone as a result, are heralded for their

543
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 1: strength and toughness and their natural gifts for sport, and

544
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: women when they become too strong, fast, tall, whatever, they

545
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: get called freaks of nature, or they get called unfeminine,

546
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: or it feels like so much of this is really

547
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: just about misogyny and control over female achievement, especially when

548
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: you look even at this Olympics, someone like Katie Ladecci.

549
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: The comments under her victories are that's a dude, right,

550
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: and we're looking at one of the greatest women athletes

551
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: of all time. There is absolutely no question, there never

552
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: has been one, and where that's not even the conversation

553
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: being had. And yet because of her greatness and her

554
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: height and strength, we're still having this conversation and that

555
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: feels like everything is rooted in that well.

556
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 2: I think also to the Katie Ladeci like it's it's

557
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: been really interesting in a bad way to watch the

558
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: ways in which this conversation has shifted in the last

559
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: five years, like due to transphobia. So I think I

560
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: used to be able to say in conversations like this, Oh,

561
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: Katie Ladecki incredibly dominant. Right, No one ever says like

562
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: Katy Ducky's probably a man, except now they do. Right now,

563
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: we're living in this weird era where as you say,

564
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: underneath you know, and I don't want to over index

565
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: on like Instagram commenters, because like you know, I think

566
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: most people are far more better adjusted than that. But

567
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 2: you know, you'll see people saying, that's a dude, right,

568
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: that's a man accusing Katie Ladecki of being a trans person,

569
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: and that is new, right, that is not something that

570
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: you saw even like three or four years ago. And

571
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: that is really I think all down to this sort

572
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: of moral panic and you know, really big boom in transphobia,

573
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: transphobic laws, transhobic rhetoric. That is also I think, really

574
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: muddying the waters here around both sides of a conversation,

575
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: because now you're seeing you know, like in the reporting

576
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: around em Montchelee and you know, the nuting, you're seeing

577
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 2: people claiming that they're trans, people were transmitten in which

578
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: they're not right. And there's this all of the boxers, Yeah, right,

579
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: the boxers, And you're just seeing so much And there's

580
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: always been confusion I think between for people, and I

581
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: think mostly historically that has been sort of honest confusion,

582
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: and now I think it's it's really a big sort

583
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: of disinformation campaign to try and collapse down that nuance politicized.

584
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you look at how DSD has been

585
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: conflated with trans athletes, and when you look at how

586
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: trans athletes have been politicized and demonized in an unfair way,

587
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: especially when the science is not there for that, what

588
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: might the future for girls and women in sport look

589
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: like to you if we continue on this path?

590
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's it's such a great question.

591
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: And you know, it's interesting that now we're seeing parents

592
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: at these games, says that's a trans person right whereas

593
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: it used to be. So these stories have gone have

594
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: been around for forever. Right in nineteen ninety and there's

595
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: a local newspaper story of a girl soccer game in Texas,

596
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: a ten year old the goal was like the sort

597
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: of star goalie had short hair, which was like, oh,

598
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: like maybe she's a boy. And the two fathers of

599
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: the opposing team demanded proof of her gender and they

600
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: wanted someone to go take her into the lady's room

601
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: and like take her clothes off basically and like check

602
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 2: that she is a girl.

603
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: And remember, we're protecting.

604
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: Women exactly exactly, Like don't you feel protected? I feel

605
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: so protected and so so yeah, so like it's both

606
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: the same and different, right, you know, in these modern conversations.

607
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: But you know, when I think about the future, it's interesting.

608
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: I think. On the one hand, I do think that

609
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: for every person who is spewing just really horrific stuff

610
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: on the Internet, there is a person who, you know,

611
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: I get in my inboxer and you know, on the

612
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: stuff that I'm seeing, who is saying, wait, hold on

613
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: a minute, what like what are we talking about? What

614
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: are we doing. I do think that for many people

615
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: hearing about this, it's really baffling that this is the

616
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: thing that we're doing. And I take a lot of

617
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 2: I take a lot of encouragement right from that, which

618
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: is that you see people saying, oh, what, like, what

619
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 2: are we talking about? It are exactly and so you know,

620
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: And I also think that there it has been a

621
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: lot more, at least in my reporting, there seems to

622
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: be have been a real shift in the last five

623
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: to ten years, specifically around the ways in which women

624
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: competitors on the track think about competing against athletes with

625
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: sex variations. So it used to be that you'd hear,

626
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: like in Castor's era, you'd hear people say, I don't

627
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: want to compete against her all of that. That's definitely

628
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: I think people are still saying. But I think in general,

629
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: now what you hear is this better understanding that these

630
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: women were born this way. They're not doing anything, they're

631
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: not cheating, they're not taking anything, you know, they're not

632
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: changing their bodies in any way. And that's fine, and

633
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm okay with that now. Of course, that often is

634
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: coupled with sort of foil, which is that I don't

635
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: want to compet against trans athletes, right, so like there's

636
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: sort of a sort of double edged sword there. But

637
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: I think and I think largely the credit for that

638
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: goes to castor Semenia and how vocal she has been

639
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: and how like public she has been about this really

640
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: harrowing and horrible experience that she's had. And so on

641
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: the one hand, I sometimes take some I don't know,

642
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: I guess saw us in the fact that there are

643
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: so many people asking questions and saying, hold on, wait

644
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: a minute. And I do think that once you learn

645
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 2: that this is not new, that this is not something

646
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: that just popped up, that this is not even you know,

647
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: in the last ten years, this is a one hundred

648
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: year history, it really kind of opens people's eyes up

649
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: to all the things you've been saying, which is that

650
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: this is not These are not scientific, really conversations, These

651
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: are not really These are questions rooted in something else.

652
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: They're rooted in these really old ideas about women, what

653
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: women are capable of, women should be doing, what women

654
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: should look like. And I think once you have that

655
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: that key kind of unlocks a lot of things for

656
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: this conversation. And I'm seeing a lot of people kind

657
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: of have those realizations. I think is great.

658
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: Did you end up at the end of this podcast

659
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: believing in a solution because you suggested some at the end,

660
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: but you don't make a pick.

661
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 2: I think it's hard and it's real cop out right

662
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: where I'm like, who can say, you know what the

663
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: future old? I think this is a thing that I think,

664
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 2: as you say, I am really interested in having actual

665
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: conversations about what the future of sport can look like

666
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: with people who are you know, coming at this with

667
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: in good faith and in the sort of you know,

668
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: the spirit of inclusion, right, like, well, how do we

669
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: make sure that everybody gets to compete in a way

670
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: that makes sense? And I think that that might be

671
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: different sport to sport, right, there may be sports where

672
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 2: certain kinds of regulations make sense and others don't. I

673
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: think that there, you know, there may be situations where

674
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: we think about dropping the gender binary and or doing

675
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: something else. And I really think that what I'd like

676
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 2: to see, frankly, is just less of this kind of

677
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: like you know, hateful, really awful rhetoric and constantly. I

678
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: think the challenge is a lot of people who are

679
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: really interested, who actually care about women's sports, which I

680
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: think many people who are very vocal in this moment

681
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: do not, but women who actually are people who actually

682
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: care about the future of women's sports to be able

683
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: to like not have to spend all of their energy

684
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: correcting people and correcting misinformation and fighting for the human

685
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 2: rights of these athletes so that then they can actually

686
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 2: have interesting conversations about what could happen next. But right now,

687
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: so much of the energy is being spent just trying

688
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: to like keep the head above water in terms of

689
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: just all of these attacks. And so I've heard a

690
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: lot of really interesting, you know, potential ideas, and I

691
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 2: would love I'm sure there are stuff that I haven't

692
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 2: thought of that other people can think of that would

693
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: be more inclusive. And I think for now, because we

694
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: don't have those solutions in place, we need to find

695
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 2: a way to let everybody compete, right And that's not

696
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,879
Speaker 2: what's happening right now. And that feels like a just baseline.

697
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's in the Olympic Charter, it's in the

698
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: United Nations, you know, Declaration of Human Rights, and that

699
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: feels like the low hanging fruit first, and then we

700
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 2: get to have much more cool and interesting conversations about

701
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 2: the future of sports. Once we get all this nonsense.

702
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: Out of the way, I could not agree more. I

703
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: feel like I'm constantly in a state of defense and explanation,

704
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: and even hesitant to ask honest, in good faith questions

705
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: because of how cruel the other side is, and not

706
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: wanting to be thrown over there, but wanting to ask

707
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: and understand best I can. How we organize, if we

708
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: could organize differently, how we're fair while also being inclusive

709
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: all those things. And I think this podcast is a

710
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: really big step towards more people being educated enough to

711
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: have those conversations in a way that will move us

712
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: forward instead of constantly feeling like we're going backwards. So

713
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: thank you so much for giving us your time, Thanks

714
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: for staying up late in Paris, Thanks for doing this podcast,

715
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: and for fighting to get it made and heard because

716
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 1: it's spectacular.

717
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: Oh thank you so much for having me. I really

718
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: appreciate it. I will stay up late for you anytime.

719
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: We really hope you enjoyed that rewind with Rose, and

720
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 1: we hope you enjoyed this week taking a trip down

721
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 1: memory lane with us. Have a great weekend, Slices, See

722
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: you next week. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an

723
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports

724
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app,

725
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Production by

726
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones.

727
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan

728
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: and Emily Rudder. Our editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez,

729
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: Grace Lynch, and Lindsay Cradowell. Production assistant from Lucy Jones

730
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: and I'm Your Host Sarah Spain