WEBVTT - A Verdict 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:09.680 No welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. This week 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:14.280 there was some huge news related to our most recent 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.400 season in Guyana. A verdict came through on one of 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.639 the cases that we covered, the one that Melinda Jenkie 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.799 filed that had to do with insurance and particularly with 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:31.440 something called financial assurance. The case argued that Guyana's Environmental 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:37.920 Protection Agency it's EPA, had failed to require proof from 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:43.560 SOO Exon subsidiary in Guyana and from Exon Mobile itself 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:48.239 of the sort of liability coverage needed for a risky 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:52.919 offshore oil project like the one that's happening offshore Guyana 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:57.280 right now. The law asks not only for an insurance 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:02.280 policy from the local operator, but also for an unlimited 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:07.000 guarantee from the parent company, in this case Exon Mobile, 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.919 that it will cover any damages related to the particular 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:16.119 activity that's being permitted, in this case, oil drilling. Part 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.360 of the argument was that an oil spill offshore Guyana 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:23.560 would not only impact Guyana, but could potentially impact multiple 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.600 other countries nearby. In fact, Exon's own environmental impact assessment 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.480 for its most recent well indicated that a massive oil 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:37.839 spill offshore Guyana could impact up to fourteen Caribbean countries. 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.520 Those are all countries that depend on fishing and tourism 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.800 for their economies. What this case argued was that the 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:49.160 government was allowing Exon to ramp up production quickly to 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:55.880 get around certain permitting requirements, while also not requiring that 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.520 it had this level of liability coverage, opening up the 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:04.800 country Guyana to enormous financial risk because imagine if there 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.600 was a deep water offshore blowout and it did impact 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:13.280 fourteen Caribbean countries, where would those countries go looking to 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.040 cover those damages. If there was no policy in place 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.639 requiring Exxon to pay for those damages, those countries would 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.640 be coming to the government of Guyana. The judge in 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:30.280 this case issued an absolutely blistering ruling against Exxon and 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.560 the Guyanese EPA. He called what's been happening in egregious 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.600 state of affairs that has engulfed the Environmental Protection Agency 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:43.120 in a quagmire of its own making. He also wrote 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.080 that quote in the course of these proceedings, the court 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.320 found on the evidence before it that So Exploration and 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:55.240 Production Guyana Limited was engaged in a disingenuous attempt which 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.799 was calculated to deceive when it sought to dilute its 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:04.520 liabilities and settled obligations stipulated and expressed in clear unambiguous 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:10.200 terms while simultaneously optimizing production at the Eliza Phase IE 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:15.360 petroleum production project in the Stopwrich Block offshore Guyana. He 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.680 goes on to write so Exploration and Production Guyana Limited 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:22.160 engaged in a course of action made permissible only by 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:28.440 the omissions of a derelict client and submissive Environmental Protection Agency. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.520 Elsewhere in the ruling, he writes these matters were not 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:36.120 unknown to SOO or the EPA, and consistent with the 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.440 benefits of its petroleum production activities to which SOO is 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:46.040 entitled comes the burden of fulfilling its obligations under the permit, 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:54.120 and the agency sought refuge in silence, avoidance, concealment, and secrecy, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:58.960 notwithstanding the grave potential danger and consequences to the state 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.840 and citizens if an event occurred at the Eliza Phase 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:07.200 I petroleum production facilities in the Stabwrich Bloc offshore Guyana 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:13.120 in absence of such financial assurances. He concludes that the 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.360 Environmental Protection Agency is in breach of its statutory duty 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.800 by its failure and or omissions to enforce compliance by 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:27.920 SO Exploration and Production Guyana Limited of its financial assurance obligations. 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:32.480 He orders the Environmental Protection Agency to issue an enforcement 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.360 notice on or before May ninth, less than a week 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.840 from the date of the ruling directed to SO Exploration 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:45.200 and Production Guyana Limited to perform its obligations. First to 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:51.280 provide within thirty days the unlimited liability parent company Guarantee 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:57.200 agreement and or an unlimited liability Affiliate company guarantee to 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:02.600 indemnify and keep and debat the Government of Guyana and 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:07.200 the Agency against all such environmental obligations of so SO 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.280 and its co venturers within the stopwrit bloc. They also 0:05:11.400 --> 0:05:16.080 have to provide proof of environmental liability insurance, as is 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:21.480 customary in international petroleum industry, in accordance with the conditions 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:26.080 of its permit. It says, if they fail to provide 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:33.040 both of these things, its permit stands suspended. The judge 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:36.039 also tackled the question of standing in this case, which 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:41.760 is really really interesting. SO had argued that the particular 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:46.040 plaintiffs bringing this case to individual citizens, one of whom 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.479 we actually heard from this season, Frederick Collins, the President 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:56.159 of Transparency Guyana International. However, the organization that he works 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.680 for was not a party to this case. He was 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.960 a plaintiff in this case as an individual, as was 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:03.000 mister Godfrey. 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.040 White also argued that these two men had no standing 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.600 that Guyanese citizens can't bring a case like this because 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.000 it has to do with the regulatory structure and the company, 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:19.119 and they referred to these plaintiffs as meddlesome, meddlesome busybodies. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:25.400 The judge said, yeah, no, Actually, citizens need to be 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.280 able to bring cases that are in the public interest, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:34.280 especially in situations like this where there are major environmental implications. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.200 So that's a huge precedent to set too. I caught 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.400 up with Melinda Jenki the day after the ruling came 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.359 out to hear what she thought about it and to 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.080 hear what kind of message this sends, what kind of 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.360 precedent it sets, both in Guyana and beyond. That conversation 0:06:51.480 --> 0:07:03.200 has come up after this quick break. So first I'd 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:07.640 love to get just your initial reaction to the ruling 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:10.560 when it first first came out. 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.520 I think it's an excellent ruling. I mean, the judge 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.200 said that the EPA's lax behavior had put this nation 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:24.040 and its people in grave danger of calamitous disaster. And 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:28.000 so immediately what you have is a very strong statement 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:35.680 of the situation as it is. Remember Exxon, so the 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:40.240 Exxon subsidiary has admitted in court that they've been using 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:45.360 faulty equipment, and they've admitted in public that they're operating 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.720 above the safety limits. So that's very dangerous for Guyana. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.000 And it means that if there's any kind of oil spill, disaster, 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.000 to blow out, whatever God forbid, any of that should happen, 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:03.840 Guyana would be liable for all of that because the 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:07.200 insurance is not in place and the parent company guarantee 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.760 is not in place. And the judge has corrected that 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.040 by ordering the EPA to enforce the environmental permit. I mean, 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.800 where else in the world would you have such dangerous 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:24.200 deep water operations going on without proper insurance and without 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.560 having the finance in place to protect the home country. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:34.600 Yeah, yeah, I'm curious. I know that the government has 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.120 said that they plan to appeal and whatnot, but I'm 0:08:38.160 --> 0:08:42.880 assuming that the ruling is the ruling in the meantime, 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.960 and they are under pressure to correct this fairly quickly. 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:52.280 Let's just be clear the government cannot appeal this ruling. 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:54.720 They're not a party to the case. 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.959 Interesting, it's the EPA that would have to appeal. 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.800 So only the EPA or so can appeal. Yeah, and 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:04.840 the EPA is not the government. The EPA is an 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:09.320 independent statutory authority. Now, if the government is instructing the 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.960 EPA to appeal, then that's clearly unlawful. And that and 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.160 if the EPR were to then act on the basis 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:22.840 of instructions from the politicians, that action would be unlawful 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.360 and it would be open to judicial review on the 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:30.640 grounds that the EPO was carrying out instructions that were 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:32.160 not part of its mandate. 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:33.319 Right right. 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:38.480 So that's well, it's a very foolish course of action 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.720 for any government to take, is to say publicly that 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:43.600 they're going to appeal a case that they're not a 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:48.160 party to, and therefore implying that they have some control 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.319 over an independent statutory authority. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.360 Yeah, that's interesting. That's very interesting. 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.160 It's an independent statutory authority. I mean, I wrote the 0:09:57.240 --> 0:09:58.640 legislation that set this thing up. 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:03.120 Yeah, yeah, I thought that was really interesting actually too 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:08.000 that at several points in the ruling the judge mentioned 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.160 how SOO had tried to sort of tell the court 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:16.319 what some of these laws meant, and I wanted to 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.000 get your take on that that approach that they have 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.440 taken in this case. 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:27.400 Look, the I mean SO obviously has to be advised 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.360 by its own lawyers, and I can't comment on that. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.800 We put in our submissions, and clearly the judge has 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:39.000 ruled on the basis that he thinks he agrees with 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.240 our submissions, and he's given a judgment that is based 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:48.439 on law and legal principle. So's views on what the 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.880 law says are completely irrelevant. I mean, so, these are 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.280 business people. The business model depends on polluting the atmosphere 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.480 and the ocean with greenhouse gases. They make them money 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.240 out of destroying the climate and making the ocean more acid. 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.400 I mean, that's what they do. Law is not their concern. 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:06.720 They take advice from their lawyers. 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.000 I'm curious to hear what you think, like, what kind 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:16.960 of message this sends, both in Guyana and beyond to 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.040 all of the countries that oil majors are operating in. 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.960 What kind of precedent does this sad and sort of 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:24.480 message does it sound? 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.400 Well? I think there's some really significant messages here, I 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:33.439 mean the top line. Two ordinary citizens in this little 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.880 country which most people can't find on the map. Two 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.200 of them have gone to court and they've beaten the EPA. 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:43.200 But they've also beaten Exxon Mobile. And this is really 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:47.480 a victory for the people by the people. I think 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.440 we have to give full CDOs to his honor Justice 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.280 Sandil Kisun. He put the rule of law above the 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:59.920 interests of Exxon Mobile. That's massive. That's what every judge, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.040 every country should be doing. And I think this decision 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:06.079 sets the standard for judges everywhere, not just in Guyana, 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:07.240 but across the world. 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.600 Is there any sense that the judges ruling will be 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:14.200 politicized in some way that you know, it will get 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:20.000 the sort of oh, he's just against the PPP or whatever, 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.920 that kind of reaction from folks. 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.600 This is a decision that puts the interests to Guyana 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.839 and the nation foremost. It's a decision that upholds the 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.079 rule of law. It's a decision that says you s 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:38.679 so took a business decision to accept this permit, and 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:42.359 you signed for it, and you agreed to provide the insurance, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:47.319 and you agreed to provide the parent company, the unlimited 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.880 parent company guarantee, and you, the EPA, have a job 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.520 to enforce that permit, so you will need to provide 0:12:56.520 --> 0:13:01.200 that insurance and that unlimited parent company guarantee. Now, if 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.720 anybody tries to politicize that decision, they are going to 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:08.280 look extremely foolish. The government is already looking silly by 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.760 saying that it's going to appeel the decision, and people 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:16.200 are asked, why is the government taking this attitude and 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.839 appearing to be on the side of ess rather than 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:26.440 on the side of the country. This ruling, once the 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.120 insurance and the guarantee are in place, means that Guyana 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.959 is no longer potentially liable for billions of US dollars. 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:40.120 So who would actually question that? Why would anybody question 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:44.240 a decision by the judge which says, enforce the permit, 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:49.280 comply with your obligations, and make sure that this country 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.240 does not suffer as a result of your default or 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.800 bad behavior. I mean, he didn't use those exact words, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:56.800 That's what I'm saying. 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.400 Yeah, I mean, I thought that was really interesting about 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.840 this case in general, just the extent to which SO 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:09.200 SO and the EPA were really partners. You know, talking 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.360 about this stuff, and I'm curious for your thoughts on 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.720 that too, just just the extent to which the EPA 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.600 seemed to be very much, I don't know, just sort 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.240 of complying with the way that so slash Axon wanted 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:24.360 to handle things. 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:29.120 Oh, I think it's clear from the decision that the 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.840 relationship between the EPA and SO has not been the 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.360 relationship that you would expect from the regulator and the 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.440 entity being regulated. The EPA has been far too compliant, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:47.200 hasn't done its job, and so SO has been allowed 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.520 to get away with breaching its permit. And the result 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:56.760 of that, the judge says that lack of vigilance by 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:01.120 the EPA and its lack of enforcement has put the 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:05.120 quoting now put this nation and its people in grave 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:10.280 potential danger of calamitous disaster. So the EPA has been 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:16.640 completely irresponsible. The judge has corrected that situation, and everybody 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:20.200 in the country should be cheering this decision. Every politician, 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:25.000 every business person, every activist, academic student, everybody should be 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:30.400 cheering this decision because it's protecting Guyana. It's protecting every 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:31.640 single one of us. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:37.760 Yeah. Well, it also really seems like a good proof 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:41.080 point that the court is not being influenced by either 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:46.240 the government or corporate interests, which should make anyone in 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.640 any country feel like, Okay, we have a functional court system. 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:50.960 This is good. Yeah. 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:56.680 I think this judge deserves a real recognition and praise 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.600 from around the world for taking this position. This is 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.560 a country that is very new to oil and gas, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:09.040 and he says that we've seen politicians across the divide, 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.880 whether it's the PPP or the ATNEU or the AFC 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:20.920 or whoever, all completely pro oil irresponsibly, So throwing caution 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:27.720 to the winds over excited about Guyana becoming an oil producer. 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:29.880 And now you've got the voice of reason coming in 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.240 and saying, wait a minute, there is something called the 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.440 rule of law, and we're going to uphold it. There 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.680 are rules here to protect the people of Guyana and 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:41.440 the environment of Guyana and the Caribbean, and this judge 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.600 is going to uphold those rules. 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:44.960 Yeah. 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:51.320 Yeah, I thought that his stance on standing was also 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:56.000 really important. You know this idea that look, especially when 0:16:56.000 --> 0:17:04.840 it comes to things like environmental regulation, it's important to 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.600 protect the ability of citizens to bring public interest suits. 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.480 And I'm curious what you thought about that that part 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:11.960 as well. 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.800 I've impressed you really have read the decision. 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.560 Yes, I've highlighted many parts. 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:26.119 Yeah, so I think what you have there is a 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.800 really good statement of judicial review. 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.520 Judicial review is basically the rule of law in action. 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:37.320 We depend on citizens to go to court and say, look, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.439 there isn't there is abuse of power by this public authority, 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.480 and you, the court, do want you to step in 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.160 and put a stop to this abuse. And by ruling 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.639 on standing in this suaity, the judge is basically saying, 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.960 in the modern era, everybody has a right now, every 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.160 citizen has a right to go to court to protect 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:02.560 the public interest, and the traditional rules on standing are 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:07.080 inappropriate for the situation that we are in now, and 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.359 that actually we have to have these rules of standing. 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:14.639 This is a really good modern decision based on the 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:15.760 legal principles. 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.520 Good. Well, I was just saying someone this morning like that, 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.160 I would love to see a ruling like this from 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.120 the US Supreme Court, and it feels like totally wishful thinking. 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:30.439 So so yeah, it was. It was. It was a 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.520 good read. Okay, excellent, I guess yeah, what are just 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.280 the next steps for you on this case? Are you 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.280 sort of waiting to see if if anything gets filed 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.400 and then and then you know, proceed from there. Are 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.359 you looking at okay? If if the government you know, 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.600 is making public statements about this, then possibly that could 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:53.560 be a case as well. I know there might be 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:55.920 things you can't discuss, but to the extent that you 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:58.200 can share, what's what's next on this for you? 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.240 Well, to be honest, I think the most important thing 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.720 right now is to get people in Guyana to understand 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:09.080 the immense significance of this case. The judge has put 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.760 the root of law above the interests of Excelmobile. So 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.680 all of those people who've been running around saying, oh, 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.760 you can't do anything, you can't do anything, now they 0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:21.080 don't have an excuse. Red Thread, which is a group 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:26.640 of activists women, were out on Wednesday protesting and campaigning 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:31.200 in order to get the insurance in place, and people 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.600 were saying to them that they support Red Thread, but 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:35.359 they don't think they'll get anywhere on the insurance. And 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.000 of course this ruling comes out saying that ESSO has 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.960 to provide the insurance. And I think that sense a 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:45.639 really important message to people, and it says stop giving 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.359 way to despair, stop looking for excuses. Actually, you have 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.360 the power to act, so act because it brings results. 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.359 And again this is two people to ordinary citizens who 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:00.000 went to court. There's no CSO involved in this sign up. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.359 The Bloomberg article says it's Transparency Institute Guyana Inc. But 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:09.080 it's not. It's Fred Collins and God free weight to individuals. 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:10.119 Yeah. 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.840 So the next step, I think the really important thing 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:14.639 is to get people to understand that they have this 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.400 power and that they have an obligation to protect democracy 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.560 in Guyana, that they have the power to stand up 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.960 instead of just complaining about things not being right have 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.439 they can act and they will get. 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.920 Right, and that the court will actually hear them and 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.560 rule accordingly. That is it's so important for people to 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.679 feel like it's not a lost cause to take a 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:40.760 case like this to court. 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:42.840 Yeah. I think this also sends a message to the 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:47.199 judiciary because we have we have had a case, the 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.720 gains Skin case before the Chief Justice where the Chief 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.360 Justice took over a year to give a decision and 0:20:54.400 --> 0:21:00.280 that's in breach of national law, specifically in breach of 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.840 the time limit for Judicial Decisions Act and in breach 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:07.200 of the cases in the Caribbean Court of Justice, which 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.280 is our highest court of appeal. This case, Justice Casson, 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.320 took from start to finish in eight months. 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.880 Yeah, I was shocked at how quickly the ruling came out. 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:21.639 This is what you want in a judicial review case, 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:25.359 because every day in which you're waiting for a decision 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.800 is a day in which a public authority, and in 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:35.800 this case so is acting on lawfully. So judicial review 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.640 is always urgent. The judges are expected to move swiftly, 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:42.679 and the judge in this case has shown that it 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.679 is possible to do that, so that sends a very 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.720 clear message to the rest of the judiciary. We have 0:21:50.760 --> 0:21:56.119 another case before the Chief Justice in which the hearing 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:01.080 ended in May last year. It's again May, and we 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.880 still have not heard a decision from the Chief Justice, 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:10.280 even though we've written several letters. So I think looking ahead, 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.679 I would hope to see decisions coming a lot faster 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:18.000 on these judicial review decisions. Now it's not acceptable, I think, 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.040 to be waiting for a year for a decision, and 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.840 it's it's certainly contrary to national law and contrary to 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:27.399 the rulings of the Caribbean Court of Justice. So it's 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:31.160 a most unfortunate situation in these other in the other 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:32.600 cases that I mentioned. 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.200 I also thought it was really interesting how many times 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:41.080 the judge emphasized that the issue of you know, whether 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:45.880 or not the law requires financial assurance and this this 0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:50.119 parent company guarantee, Like he said sort of over and 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.439 over again, like it's not complicated because because you know 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:57.120 s O and the kind of message that like, well, 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:00.159 the law is really complicated, it's open to interpretition and 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:05.120 I don't know that seemed really important to me too, 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.480 that like he sort of repeated over and over again, like, look, 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.080 this is not actually that complicated of an issue with 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:16.080 the loss as this. It's very clear both sides understood it. 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:20.040 Yes, I agree completely with the judge. I have no 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:24.679 idea why you thought it was complicated, and if it was. 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.800 If they did think it was complicated, surely they would 0:23:28.800 --> 0:23:33.160 have obtained a competent legal advice before signing a document 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:37.679 that they thought was complicated. So if they didn't, So 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:40.040 if they thought it was complicated and they didn't get 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:43.119 proper legal advice, what's going on there? If it was 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:45.760 complicated and they got proper legal advice, why are you 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:49.200 coming back and saying you don't understand it or it's complicated, 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:52.240 you know, yeah, it just doesn't make sense. 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:55.320 I know, it almost it seemed to me more like 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:59.120 something they wanted to convince the public of that like this, Oh, 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.239 actually the problem is that this law is complicated and 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:08.199 open to interpretation. I don't know, it was Oh yeah, 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:10.000 I don't know. That's what it seemed like to me, 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:12.000 because they mentioned it in a lot of their marketing 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:17.760 videos too, that like, you know, it's it's a complex issue, 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:21.120 but don't worry, we have the right insurance in place, 0:24:21.359 --> 0:24:24.560 and and and like I you know, it was interesting 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:27.400 to me that this so far, of all the court cases, 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:29.720 this is the only one that I've seen sort of 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:32.520 multiple Exon videos about. 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:35.040 So On is of course entitled to say whatever they want. 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:39.679 The question is whether people believe them. The question is 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:43.880 whether people trust what Exon Mobil says. And I think 0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:47.679 perhaps a more important question is whether they're investors and 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:53.040 the market have confidence in Exon Mobil and its business 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:57.359 plan and the things that it's saying. I don't know 0:24:57.400 --> 0:24:58.159 the answer to that. 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:02.959 Yeah, that should be because actually the main group that 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:06.879 they have messaged to about how great it is that 0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:13.159 they're moving so quickly is shareholders. So it'll be interesting 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:15.560 to see if that tune changes. 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:21.360 Yes, I mean I wonder whether they thought this went 0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:26.199 through because to be operating above the safety levels of 0:25:26.240 --> 0:25:30.359 your fbso your floating production storage, offloading vessels, and to 0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:35.680 be using Faulter equipment, those are not items that would 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:40.119 fill a shareholder with confidence, particularly when you think that 0:25:40.200 --> 0:25:44.960 this is dangerous deep water drilling. This is one hundred 0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:48.159 and twenty miles off shore, the oil is about a 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:51.760 mile below, the ocean is about a mile deep, and 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.440 the oil is you know, I think about another mile 0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:59.000 below the seabed. This is extremely dangerous. And then when 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:05.119 you add to that, clearly a lax regulator. In fact, 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:09.440 the message to shareholders is not, look, it's wonderful, we're 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:13.400 moving so fast. It seems to me that one could 0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:20.919 reasonably conclude from the operations and the lax regulation that 0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:24.000 this is a very risky operation, and in fact, shareholders 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:26.480 might want to think about the implications. 0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:30.159 Yeah, but again, you know, that's why it's important to 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:34.600 have a judge that reminds the EPA of its job. 0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:39.400 Yes, I think this also has implications for business, because 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:43.800 what business requires above what else is a level playing field, 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:47.080 rules that apply to everybody and that are enforced equally 0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:51.240