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Speaker 1: No welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerveldt. This week

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Speaker 1: there was some huge news related to our most recent

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Speaker 1: season in Guyana. A verdict came through on one of

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Speaker 1: the cases that we covered, the one that Melinda Jenkie

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Speaker 1: filed that had to do with insurance and particularly with

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Speaker 1: something called financial assurance. The case argued that Guyana's Environmental

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Speaker 1: Protection Agency it's EPA, had failed to require proof from

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Speaker 1: SOO Exon subsidiary in Guyana and from Exon Mobile itself

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Speaker 1: of the sort of liability coverage needed for a risky

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Speaker 1: offshore oil project like the one that's happening offshore Guyana

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Speaker 1: right now. The law asks not only for an insurance

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Speaker 1: policy from the local operator, but also for an unlimited

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Speaker 1: guarantee from the parent company, in this case Exon Mobile,

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Speaker 1: that it will cover any damages related to the particular

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Speaker 1: activity that's being permitted, in this case, oil drilling. Part

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Speaker 1: of the argument was that an oil spill offshore Guyana

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Speaker 1: would not only impact Guyana, but could potentially impact multiple

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Speaker 1: other countries nearby. In fact, Exon's own environmental impact assessment

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Speaker 1: for its most recent well indicated that a massive oil

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Speaker 1: spill offshore Guyana could impact up to fourteen Caribbean countries.

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Speaker 1: Those are all countries that depend on fishing and tourism

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Speaker 1: for their economies. What this case argued was that the

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Speaker 1: government was allowing Exon to ramp up production quickly to

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Speaker 1: get around certain permitting requirements, while also not requiring that

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Speaker 1: it had this level of liability coverage, opening up the

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Speaker 1: country Guyana to enormous financial risk because imagine if there

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Speaker 1: was a deep water offshore blowout and it did impact

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Speaker 1: fourteen Caribbean countries, where would those countries go looking to

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Speaker 1: cover those damages. If there was no policy in place

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Speaker 1: requiring Exxon to pay for those damages, those countries would

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Speaker 1: be coming to the government of Guyana. The judge in

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Speaker 1: this case issued an absolutely blistering ruling against Exxon and

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Speaker 1: the Guyanese EPA. He called what's been happening in egregious

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Speaker 1: state of affairs that has engulfed the Environmental Protection Agency

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Speaker 1: in a quagmire of its own making. He also wrote

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Speaker 1: that quote in the course of these proceedings, the court

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Speaker 1: found on the evidence before it that So Exploration and

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Speaker 1: Production Guyana Limited was engaged in a disingenuous attempt which

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Speaker 1: was calculated to deceive when it sought to dilute its

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Speaker 1: liabilities and settled obligations stipulated and expressed in clear unambiguous

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Speaker 1: terms while simultaneously optimizing production at the Eliza Phase IE

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Speaker 1: petroleum production project in the Stopwrich Block offshore Guyana. He

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Speaker 1: goes on to write so Exploration and Production Guyana Limited

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Speaker 1: engaged in a course of action made permissible only by

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Speaker 1: the omissions of a derelict client and submissive Environmental Protection Agency.

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Speaker 1: Elsewhere in the ruling, he writes these matters were not

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Speaker 1: unknown to SOO or the EPA, and consistent with the

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Speaker 1: benefits of its petroleum production activities to which SOO is

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Speaker 1: entitled comes the burden of fulfilling its obligations under the permit,

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Speaker 1: and the agency sought refuge in silence, avoidance, concealment, and secrecy,

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Speaker 1: notwithstanding the grave potential danger and consequences to the state

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Speaker 1: and citizens if an event occurred at the Eliza Phase

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Speaker 1: I petroleum production facilities in the Stabwrich Bloc offshore Guyana

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Speaker 1: in absence of such financial assurances. He concludes that the

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Speaker 1: Environmental Protection Agency is in breach of its statutory duty

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Speaker 1: by its failure and or omissions to enforce compliance by

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Speaker 1: SO Exploration and Production Guyana Limited of its financial assurance obligations.

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Speaker 1: He orders the Environmental Protection Agency to issue an enforcement

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Speaker 1: notice on or before May ninth, less than a week

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Speaker 1: from the date of the ruling directed to SO Exploration

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Speaker 1: and Production Guyana Limited to perform its obligations. First to

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Speaker 1: provide within thirty days the unlimited liability parent company Guarantee

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Speaker 1: agreement and or an unlimited liability Affiliate company guarantee to

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Speaker 1: indemnify and keep and debat the Government of Guyana and

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Speaker 1: the Agency against all such environmental obligations of so SO

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Speaker 1: and its co venturers within the stopwrit bloc. They also

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Speaker 1: have to provide proof of environmental liability insurance, as is

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Speaker 1: customary in international petroleum industry, in accordance with the conditions

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Speaker 1: of its permit. It says, if they fail to provide

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Speaker 1: both of these things, its permit stands suspended. The judge

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Speaker 1: also tackled the question of standing in this case, which

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Speaker 1: is really really interesting. SO had argued that the particular

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Speaker 1: plaintiffs bringing this case to individual citizens, one of whom

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Speaker 1: we actually heard from this season, Frederick Collins, the President

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Speaker 1: of Transparency Guyana International. However, the organization that he works

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Speaker 1: for was not a party to this case. He was

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Speaker 1: a plaintiff in this case as an individual, as was

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Speaker 1: mister Godfrey.

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Speaker 2: White also argued that these two men had no standing

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Speaker 2: that Guyanese citizens can't bring a case like this because

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Speaker 2: it has to do with the regulatory structure and the company,

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Speaker 2: and they referred to these plaintiffs as meddlesome, meddlesome busybodies.

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Speaker 2: The judge said, yeah, no, Actually, citizens need to be

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Speaker 2: able to bring cases that are in the public interest,

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Speaker 2: especially in situations like this where there are major environmental implications.

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Speaker 2: So that's a huge precedent to set too. I caught

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Speaker 2: up with Melinda Jenki the day after the ruling came

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Speaker 2: out to hear what she thought about it and to

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Speaker 2: hear what kind of message this sends, what kind of

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Speaker 2: precedent it sets, both in Guyana and beyond. That conversation

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Speaker 2: has come up after this quick break. So first I'd

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Speaker 2: love to get just your initial reaction to the ruling

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Speaker 2: when it first first came out.

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Speaker 3: I think it's an excellent ruling. I mean, the judge

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Speaker 3: said that the EPA's lax behavior had put this nation

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Speaker 3: and its people in grave danger of calamitous disaster. And

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Speaker 3: so immediately what you have is a very strong statement

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Speaker 3: of the situation as it is. Remember Exxon, so the

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Speaker 3: Exxon subsidiary has admitted in court that they've been using

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Speaker 3: faulty equipment, and they've admitted in public that they're operating

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Speaker 3: above the safety limits. So that's very dangerous for Guyana.

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Speaker 3: And it means that if there's any kind of oil spill, disaster,

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Speaker 3: to blow out, whatever God forbid, any of that should happen,

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Speaker 3: Guyana would be liable for all of that because the

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Speaker 3: insurance is not in place and the parent company guarantee

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Speaker 3: is not in place. And the judge has corrected that

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Speaker 3: by ordering the EPA to enforce the environmental permit. I mean,

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Speaker 3: where else in the world would you have such dangerous

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Speaker 3: deep water operations going on without proper insurance and without

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Speaker 3: having the finance in place to protect the home country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm curious. I know that the government has

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Speaker 2: said that they plan to appeal and whatnot, but I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming that the ruling is the ruling in the meantime,

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Speaker 2: and they are under pressure to correct this fairly quickly.

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Speaker 3: Let's just be clear the government cannot appeal this ruling.

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Speaker 3: They're not a party to the case.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, it's the EPA that would have to appeal.

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Speaker 3: So only the EPA or so can appeal. Yeah, and

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Speaker 3: the EPA is not the government. The EPA is an

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Speaker 3: independent statutory authority. Now, if the government is instructing the

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Speaker 3: EPA to appeal, then that's clearly unlawful. And that and

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Speaker 3: if the EPR were to then act on the basis

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Speaker 3: of instructions from the politicians, that action would be unlawful

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Speaker 3: and it would be open to judicial review on the

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Speaker 3: grounds that the EPO was carrying out instructions that were

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Speaker 3: not part of its mandate.

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Speaker 2: Right right.

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Speaker 3: So that's well, it's a very foolish course of action

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Speaker 3: for any government to take, is to say publicly that

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Speaker 3: they're going to appeal a case that they're not a

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Speaker 3: party to, and therefore implying that they have some control

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Speaker 3: over an independent statutory authority.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. That's very interesting.

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Speaker 3: It's an independent statutory authority. I mean, I wrote the

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Speaker 3: legislation that set this thing up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I thought that was really interesting actually too

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Speaker 2: that at several points in the ruling the judge mentioned

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Speaker 2: how SOO had tried to sort of tell the court

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Speaker 2: what some of these laws meant, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: get your take on that that approach that they have

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Speaker 2: taken in this case.

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Speaker 3: Look, the I mean SO obviously has to be advised

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Speaker 3: by its own lawyers, and I can't comment on that.

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Speaker 3: We put in our submissions, and clearly the judge has

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Speaker 3: ruled on the basis that he thinks he agrees with

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Speaker 3: our submissions, and he's given a judgment that is based

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Speaker 3: on law and legal principle. So's views on what the

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Speaker 3: law says are completely irrelevant. I mean, so, these are

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Speaker 3: business people. The business model depends on polluting the atmosphere

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Speaker 3: and the ocean with greenhouse gases. They make them money

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Speaker 3: out of destroying the climate and making the ocean more acid.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's what they do. Law is not their concern.

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Speaker 3: They take advice from their lawyers.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious to hear what you think, like, what kind

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Speaker 2: of message this sends, both in Guyana and beyond to

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Speaker 2: all of the countries that oil majors are operating in.

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Speaker 2: What kind of precedent does this sad and sort of

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Speaker 2: message does it sound?

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Speaker 3: Well? I think there's some really significant messages here, I

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Speaker 3: mean the top line. Two ordinary citizens in this little

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Speaker 3: country which most people can't find on the map. Two

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Speaker 3: of them have gone to court and they've beaten the EPA.

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Speaker 3: But they've also beaten Exxon Mobile. And this is really

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Speaker 3: a victory for the people by the people. I think

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Speaker 3: we have to give full CDOs to his honor Justice

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Speaker 3: Sandil Kisun. He put the rule of law above the

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Speaker 3: interests of Exxon Mobile. That's massive. That's what every judge,

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Speaker 3: every country should be doing. And I think this decision

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Speaker 3: sets the standard for judges everywhere, not just in Guyana,

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Speaker 3: but across the world.

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Speaker 2: Is there any sense that the judges ruling will be

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Speaker 2: politicized in some way that you know, it will get

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Speaker 2: the sort of oh, he's just against the PPP or whatever,

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Speaker 2: that kind of reaction from folks.

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Speaker 3: This is a decision that puts the interests to Guyana

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Speaker 3: and the nation foremost. It's a decision that upholds the

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Speaker 3: rule of law. It's a decision that says you s

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Speaker 3: so took a business decision to accept this permit, and

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Speaker 3: you signed for it, and you agreed to provide the insurance,

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Speaker 3: and you agreed to provide the parent company, the unlimited

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Speaker 3: parent company guarantee, and you, the EPA, have a job

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Speaker 3: to enforce that permit, so you will need to provide

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Speaker 3: that insurance and that unlimited parent company guarantee. Now, if

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Speaker 3: anybody tries to politicize that decision, they are going to

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Speaker 3: look extremely foolish. The government is already looking silly by

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Speaker 3: saying that it's going to appeel the decision, and people

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Speaker 3: are asked, why is the government taking this attitude and

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Speaker 3: appearing to be on the side of ess rather than

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Speaker 3: on the side of the country. This ruling, once the

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Speaker 3: insurance and the guarantee are in place, means that Guyana

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Speaker 3: is no longer potentially liable for billions of US dollars.

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Speaker 3: So who would actually question that? Why would anybody question

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Speaker 3: a decision by the judge which says, enforce the permit,

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Speaker 3: comply with your obligations, and make sure that this country

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Speaker 3: does not suffer as a result of your default or

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Speaker 3: bad behavior. I mean, he didn't use those exact words,

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I thought that was really interesting about

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Speaker 2: this case in general, just the extent to which SO

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Speaker 2: SO and the EPA were really partners. You know, talking

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Speaker 2: about this stuff, and I'm curious for your thoughts on

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Speaker 2: that too, just just the extent to which the EPA

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Speaker 2: seemed to be very much, I don't know, just sort

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Speaker 2: of complying with the way that so slash Axon wanted

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Speaker 2: to handle things.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I think it's clear from the decision that the

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Speaker 3: relationship between the EPA and SO has not been the

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Speaker 3: relationship that you would expect from the regulator and the

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Speaker 3: entity being regulated. The EPA has been far too compliant,

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Speaker 3: hasn't done its job, and so SO has been allowed

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Speaker 3: to get away with breaching its permit. And the result

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Speaker 3: of that, the judge says that lack of vigilance by

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Speaker 3: the EPA and its lack of enforcement has put the

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Speaker 3: quoting now put this nation and its people in grave

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Speaker 3: potential danger of calamitous disaster. So the EPA has been

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Speaker 3: completely irresponsible. The judge has corrected that situation, and everybody

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Speaker 3: in the country should be cheering this decision. Every politician,

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Speaker 3: every business person, every activist, academic student, everybody should be

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Speaker 3: cheering this decision because it's protecting Guyana. It's protecting every

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Speaker 3: single one of us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it also really seems like a good proof

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Speaker 2: point that the court is not being influenced by either

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Speaker 2: the government or corporate interests, which should make anyone in

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Speaker 2: any country feel like, Okay, we have a functional court system.

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Speaker 2: This is good. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think this judge deserves a real recognition and praise

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Speaker 3: from around the world for taking this position. This is

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Speaker 3: a country that is very new to oil and gas,

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Speaker 3: and he says that we've seen politicians across the divide,

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Speaker 3: whether it's the PPP or the ATNEU or the AFC

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Speaker 3: or whoever, all completely pro oil irresponsibly, So throwing caution

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Speaker 3: to the winds over excited about Guyana becoming an oil producer.

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Speaker 3: And now you've got the voice of reason coming in

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Speaker 3: and saying, wait a minute, there is something called the

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Speaker 3: rule of law, and we're going to uphold it. There

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Speaker 3: are rules here to protect the people of Guyana and

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Speaker 3: the environment of Guyana and the Caribbean, and this judge

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Speaker 3: is going to uphold those rules.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that his stance on standing was also

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Speaker 2: really important. You know this idea that look, especially when

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Speaker 2: it comes to things like environmental regulation, it's important to

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Speaker 2: protect the ability of citizens to bring public interest suits.

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Speaker 2: And I'm curious what you thought about that that part

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: I've impressed you really have read the decision.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've highlighted many parts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think what you have there is a

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Speaker 4: really good statement of judicial review.

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Speaker 3: Judicial review is basically the rule of law in action.

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Speaker 3: We depend on citizens to go to court and say, look,

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Speaker 3: there isn't there is abuse of power by this public authority,

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Speaker 3: and you, the court, do want you to step in

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Speaker 3: and put a stop to this abuse. And by ruling

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Speaker 3: on standing in this suaity, the judge is basically saying,

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Speaker 3: in the modern era, everybody has a right now, every

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Speaker 3: citizen has a right to go to court to protect

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Speaker 3: the public interest, and the traditional rules on standing are

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Speaker 3: inappropriate for the situation that we are in now, and

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Speaker 3: that actually we have to have these rules of standing.

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Speaker 3: This is a really good modern decision based on the

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Speaker 3: legal principles.

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Speaker 2: Good. Well, I was just saying someone this morning like that,

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Speaker 2: I would love to see a ruling like this from

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Speaker 2: the US Supreme Court, and it feels like totally wishful thinking.

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Speaker 2: So so yeah, it was. It was. It was a

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Speaker 2: good read. Okay, excellent, I guess yeah, what are just

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Speaker 2: the next steps for you on this case? Are you

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Speaker 2: sort of waiting to see if if anything gets filed

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Speaker 2: and then and then you know, proceed from there. Are

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Speaker 2: you looking at okay? If if the government you know,

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Speaker 2: is making public statements about this, then possibly that could

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Speaker 2: be a case as well. I know there might be

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Speaker 2: things you can't discuss, but to the extent that you

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Speaker 2: can share, what's what's next on this for you?

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Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, I think the most important thing

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Speaker 3: right now is to get people in Guyana to understand

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Speaker 3: the immense significance of this case. The judge has put

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Speaker 3: the root of law above the interests of Excelmobile. So

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Speaker 3: all of those people who've been running around saying, oh,

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Speaker 3: you can't do anything, you can't do anything, now they

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Speaker 3: don't have an excuse. Red Thread, which is a group

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Speaker 3: of activists women, were out on Wednesday protesting and campaigning

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Speaker 3: in order to get the insurance in place, and people

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Speaker 3: were saying to them that they support Red Thread, but

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Speaker 3: they don't think they'll get anywhere on the insurance. And

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Speaker 3: of course this ruling comes out saying that ESSO has

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Speaker 3: to provide the insurance. And I think that sense a

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Speaker 3: really important message to people, and it says stop giving

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Speaker 3: way to despair, stop looking for excuses. Actually, you have

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Speaker 3: the power to act, so act because it brings results.

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Speaker 3: And again this is two people to ordinary citizens who

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Speaker 3: went to court. There's no CSO involved in this sign up.

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Speaker 3: The Bloomberg article says it's Transparency Institute Guyana Inc. But

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Speaker 3: it's not. It's Fred Collins and God free weight to individuals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the next step, I think the really important thing

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Speaker 3: is to get people to understand that they have this

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Speaker 3: power and that they have an obligation to protect democracy

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Speaker 3: in Guyana, that they have the power to stand up

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Speaker 3: instead of just complaining about things not being right have

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Speaker 3: they can act and they will get.

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Speaker 2: Right, and that the court will actually hear them and

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Speaker 2: rule accordingly. That is it's so important for people to

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Speaker 2: feel like it's not a lost cause to take a

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Speaker 2: case like this to court.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think this also sends a message to the

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Speaker 3: judiciary because we have we have had a case, the

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Speaker 3: gains Skin case before the Chief Justice where the Chief

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Speaker 3: Justice took over a year to give a decision and

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Speaker 3: that's in breach of national law, specifically in breach of

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Speaker 3: the time limit for Judicial Decisions Act and in breach

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Speaker 3: of the cases in the Caribbean Court of Justice, which

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Speaker 3: is our highest court of appeal. This case, Justice Casson,

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Speaker 3: took from start to finish in eight months.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was shocked at how quickly the ruling came out.

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Speaker 3: This is what you want in a judicial review case,

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Speaker 3: because every day in which you're waiting for a decision

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Speaker 3: is a day in which a public authority, and in

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Speaker 3: this case so is acting on lawfully. So judicial review

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Speaker 3: is always urgent. The judges are expected to move swiftly,

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Speaker 3: and the judge in this case has shown that it

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Speaker 3: is possible to do that, so that sends a very

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Speaker 3: clear message to the rest of the judiciary. We have

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Speaker 3: another case before the Chief Justice in which the hearing

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Speaker 3: ended in May last year. It's again May, and we

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Speaker 3: still have not heard a decision from the Chief Justice,

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Speaker 3: even though we've written several letters. So I think looking ahead,

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Speaker 3: I would hope to see decisions coming a lot faster

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Speaker 3: on these judicial review decisions. Now it's not acceptable, I think,

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Speaker 3: to be waiting for a year for a decision, and

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Speaker 3: it's it's certainly contrary to national law and contrary to

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Speaker 3: the rulings of the Caribbean Court of Justice. So it's

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Speaker 3: a most unfortunate situation in these other in the other

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Speaker 3: cases that I mentioned.

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Speaker 2: I also thought it was really interesting how many times

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Speaker 2: the judge emphasized that the issue of you know, whether

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Speaker 2: or not the law requires financial assurance and this this

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Speaker 2: parent company guarantee, Like he said sort of over and

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Speaker 2: over again, like it's not complicated because because you know

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Speaker 2: s O and the kind of message that like, well,

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Speaker 2: the law is really complicated, it's open to interpretition and

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Speaker 2: I don't know that seemed really important to me too,

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Speaker 2: that like he sort of repeated over and over again, like, look,

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Speaker 2: this is not actually that complicated of an issue with

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Speaker 2: the loss as this. It's very clear both sides understood it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I agree completely with the judge. I have no

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Speaker 3: idea why you thought it was complicated, and if it was.

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Speaker 3: If they did think it was complicated, surely they would

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Speaker 3: have obtained a competent legal advice before signing a document

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Speaker 3: that they thought was complicated. So if they didn't, So

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Speaker 3: if they thought it was complicated and they didn't get

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Speaker 3: proper legal advice, what's going on there? If it was

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Speaker 3: complicated and they got proper legal advice, why are you

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Speaker 3: coming back and saying you don't understand it or it's complicated,

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Speaker 3: you know, yeah, it just doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: I know, it almost it seemed to me more like

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Speaker 2: something they wanted to convince the public of that like this, Oh,

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Speaker 2: actually the problem is that this law is complicated and

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Speaker 2: open to interpretation. I don't know, it was Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. That's what it seemed like to me,

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Speaker 2: because they mentioned it in a lot of their marketing

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Speaker 2: videos too, that like, you know, it's it's a complex issue,

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Speaker 2: but don't worry, we have the right insurance in place,

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Speaker 2: and and and like I you know, it was interesting

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Speaker 2: to me that this so far, of all the court cases,

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Speaker 2: this is the only one that I've seen sort of

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Speaker 2: multiple Exon videos about.

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Speaker 3: So On is of course entitled to say whatever they want.

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Speaker 3: The question is whether people believe them. The question is

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Speaker 3: whether people trust what Exon Mobil says. And I think

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Speaker 3: perhaps a more important question is whether they're investors and

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Speaker 3: the market have confidence in Exon Mobil and its business

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Speaker 3: plan and the things that it's saying. I don't know

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Speaker 3: the answer to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that should be because actually the main group that

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Speaker 2: they have messaged to about how great it is that

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Speaker 2: they're moving so quickly is shareholders. So it'll be interesting

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Speaker 2: to see if that tune changes.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I mean I wonder whether they thought this went

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Speaker 3: through because to be operating above the safety levels of

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Speaker 3: your fbso your floating production storage, offloading vessels, and to

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Speaker 3: be using Faulter equipment, those are not items that would

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Speaker 3: fill a shareholder with confidence, particularly when you think that

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Speaker 3: this is dangerous deep water drilling. This is one hundred

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Speaker 3: and twenty miles off shore, the oil is about a

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Speaker 3: mile below, the ocean is about a mile deep, and

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Speaker 3: the oil is you know, I think about another mile

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Speaker 3: below the seabed. This is extremely dangerous. And then when

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Speaker 3: you add to that, clearly a lax regulator. In fact,

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Speaker 3: the message to shareholders is not, look, it's wonderful, we're

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Speaker 3: moving so fast. It seems to me that one could

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Speaker 3: reasonably conclude from the operations and the lax regulation that

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Speaker 3: this is a very risky operation, and in fact, shareholders

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Speaker 3: might want to think about the implications.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but again, you know, that's why it's important to

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Speaker 2: have a judge that reminds the EPA of its job.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think this also has implications for business, because

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Speaker 3: what business requires above what else is a level playing field,

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Speaker 3: rules that apply to everybody and that are enforced equally

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Speaker 3: against all of this entities in the sector. Now, if

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Speaker 3: you've got one one operator think they have a collaborative

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Speaker 3: relationship with the regulator, that's actually really bad for business

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Speaker 3: and really bad for the country.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you want to attract investment, and yet you're boasting

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Speaker 3: that there's a collaborative relationship between the regulator and one

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Speaker 3: of the entities, and the government is saying they want

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Speaker 3: to attract investment that they want to develop, and yet

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Speaker 3: they can't even meet the very basic standards that you

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Speaker 3: require for business, which is which is a level playing field,

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Speaker 3: a market in which everybody, everybody knows what the rules are,

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Speaker 3: and all the entities in that market about the rules,

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Speaker 3: and they know that the rules are going to be

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Speaker 3: enforced equally against all of them, no favors for anybody.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise you're distorting competition.

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Speaker 1: That's it for this bonus episode. Thanks for listening. We

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Speaker 1: will have a more detailed story on this ruling on

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Speaker 1: our website at Drilled podcast dot com. I'll also have

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Speaker 1: a story in the Intercept coming this week. We might

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Speaker 1: have something in the Guardian as well, So keep an

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Speaker 1: eye out. There's a lot more coming on this story.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.