1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You? 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: From House Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: are talking about and intentionally polarizing question are working mothers happier? 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: A because it's a relevant debate. Well, I don't even 7 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: want to say debate. Let's called a conversation because I 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: don't think this is necessarily a We're not looking for 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: a right or wrong. We just want to have a 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: conversation because this whole working mother versus at home mother 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: who is arguably doing just as much, if not more work. 12 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: Um is something that came up recently with and Romney, 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: wife of Mitt Mitt Romney and yes, his wife Anne Um. Yeah, 14 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: Bill Maher and a Democratic talking head Hillary Rose, Hillary Rose, 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: and thank you. We're both touching on the fact that 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: Anne Romney did not have a job outside of the home, 17 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: and they made some maybe not so sensitive comments about it, 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: and it basically started this huge flap. And now there 19 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: is an ad that's going to air on Mother's Day 20 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: by Restore Our Future, which is a superpack that supports Romney. Um, 21 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: that kind of slams those people on the left for 22 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: criticizing and who you know by saying she's never worked 23 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: a day in her life basically, And we should say 24 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: that as we're recording this podcast, Mother's Day has not 25 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: yet happened. Listeners out there will have already experienced Mother's 26 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: Day and perhaps listen future and we'll have seen this ad, 27 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: so it'll be uh, you know, I wish we could 28 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: go ahead and tell you current listeners out there what 29 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: the future is going to um respond to it thus 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: Lee wise, Now I'm just saying words so uh so, Yeah, 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: it's brought this question of the experiences of working and 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: non working mothers and whether or not one camp is 33 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: happier than the other. And it's gone on for so long. 34 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: And the term that is used often is the mommy wars. 35 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: And this what I considered kind of a deplorable phrase 36 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: because it seems kind of diminutive to call a bunch 37 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: of adult women mommy's Well, it's also pitting them against 38 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: each other. I mean there, yes, there is debate over 39 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: is one better than the other, But yeah, no, let's 40 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: not pit women against each other, right, but nevertheless, the 41 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: whole mommy Wars phrase comes up, and we have a 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty article in Child magazine to thank for it 43 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: um And just to back up to add a couple 44 00:02:55,120 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: of milestones in working motherhood. In eighteen sixty the first 45 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: FDA approved birth control pill, in AVID, hit the market, 46 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: and in that year, surprisingly HyG percentage of moms were 47 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: already working outside the home. Twenty seven point six percent 48 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: of moms with kids under eighteen had jobs, so we 49 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: were not a nation of Betty Draper's. And then moving 50 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: forward a little bit, in nineteen sixty four, the Civil 51 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: Rights Act prohibited employment discrimination based on sex, and so 52 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: now you have more women in the workplace without threat 53 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: of discrimination. And you know, obviously around this time you 54 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: have second way feminism saying, hey, women, we don't need 55 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: to be chained to our stoves and bound by girdles. 56 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: Get out of the house, gets yourself a career, find 57 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: fulfillment that way. And now we're kind of in what 58 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: I consider a pretty interesting time where the choices are 59 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: so much and you know, they're wide open, because in 60 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: one sense, we're seeing a cultural shift back to very 61 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: invested motherhood and this culture of you know, nurturing woman 62 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: and in natural childbirth and raising your children in a 63 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: very dedicated kind of way. And at the same time, 64 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: we're seeing the rise of women in terms of out 65 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: earning men, earning more bachelor's degrees than they are. So 66 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: this mommy wars debate will never stop. Yeah, but is 67 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: it even that big of a deal to most people 68 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: or is it just something that keeps getting batted around 69 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: in the media. And a two thousand nine Pew Research 70 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: Center survey found that only nineteen percent of adults thought 71 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: that married women should stay home. Granted, nine is still 72 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: more than zero. Uh, they should stay home while the 73 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: husband acted as sole breadwinner. Granted this is down from 74 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: in and our perceptions about how spouses should contribute to 75 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: the household income has changed. This is still a little 76 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: bit dated, but between and two thousand two, for instance, 77 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,559 Speaker 1: the percentage of American adults who thought both spouses should 78 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: contribute to the household accounts rose from forty percent to 79 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: and it would be interesting to see how that percentage 80 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: may have changed, probably on the upswing with the recession. Yeah, well, 81 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: did your mom did both of your parents work outside home? 82 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: My mom, growing up, it was sort of a all told, 83 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: mom was more of the breadwinner. To be honest, I 84 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: mean both of them were working. There was when I 85 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: was pretty young. Mom was home um and homeschooling and 86 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: all of that. But really for the majority of my upbringing, 87 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: she was always working. Yeah, my parents, both of them worked, 88 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 1: but I didn't have I mean, I wasn't a latch 89 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: key kid by any means my parents because they worked 90 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: for an airline. My mom is a flight attendant still 91 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: and my dad was a pilot. They would always fly 92 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: opposite schedules, so they pretty much worked equally, and my 93 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: mother is actually more senior in the airline my father. 94 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: I like to point that out. Hey Mom, congratulations Caroline's mother, Well, 95 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: don't sell it. And today, stay at home mothers are 96 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: more the exception than the rule. According to data from 97 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics, by more than 98 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: seventy of US moms with school age children worked outside 99 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: of the home, and the proportion of working moms is 100 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: the highest at among unmarried women who double as heads 101 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: of household. And on a personal note, and then we'll 102 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: get back to some statistics. Uh, I mean, I've I've 103 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: thought a lot about this, obviously, I am. I'm not 104 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: a mother, so this is not, you know, an immediately 105 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: relevant choice that I have to make. But when I'm 106 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: uh on a work day, if I'll see a mom 107 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: out with her kids, half of me says, oh, that 108 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: seems great. You know, I enjoy spending time with my 109 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: nieces and nephews. That seems like a really fun, full 110 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: time job. And then I come to work and I'm like, man, 111 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: I could never leave this. So I can only imagine 112 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: that for on an individual basis, this whole mommy wars 113 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: thing is, you know, it's it's gotta be tough, but 114 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: I think it's it's so much created from the outside, 115 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: not from within. Because one of my very best girlfriends 116 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: is a mom. Oh and he's just having his first 117 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: birthday next weekend. I'm very excited. Anyway, Um, she loves 118 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: her job as a teacher, loves it, loves it, loves it. However, 119 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: she said that if she were able to, she would 120 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: love to stay home with him instead of going to work. Now, 121 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: this is a woman who, because she teaches very small children, 122 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: used to assign herself essays to write on books because 123 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: she was not as mentally challenged as she had been 124 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: in college and grad school. So I'm wondering how successful 125 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: she would be and happy she would be at home. 126 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: But I mean it's it's really so much more of 127 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: a personal choice. Absolutely, And we are intentionally leaving men 128 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: largely out of his conversation. I mean, we can talk 129 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: about stay at home dad's guys. Uh, your participation at 130 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: home has skyrocketed since nineteen sixty five. Dad's participation with 131 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: childcare has increased threefold, um, and and men are also 132 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: struggling with their own kinds of work family balances. But 133 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: let's get back to this working mom debate, right, you 134 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: keep calling it a debate. I'm breaking my own rule 135 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: conversation conversation discussion. Yes, yes, well, briefcase or no. Moms 136 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: are doing most of the work at home still, and 137 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: according to a University of Wisconsin national survey of families 138 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: and households from two thousand eight, working full time moms 139 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: put in an average of twenty eight hours of housework 140 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: each week versus sixteen hours per week for working husbands. 141 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: And this leads us to talking about the second shift. Yes, 142 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: the second shift is a term coined by sociologists are 143 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: Ye home child in nineteen nine. UM and she came 144 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: up with this idea because she was working um as 145 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: a professor and there wasn't enough child care for so 146 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: she'd take her kid with her to work sometimes and 147 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: was basically pulling her hair out out of the two 148 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: full time jobs that she had. So there's this whole 149 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: notion that when women go to work, they're completing their 150 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: first ship. They get off the clock, they come home, 151 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: and they enter the second shift, right, And something that 152 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 1: slightly contradicts with that idea is this is more data 153 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: from the Bureau of Labor and statistics from that showed 154 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: that the total amount of work that women and men 155 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: do each day, combining work at a job and work 156 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: at home, it's pretty much the same. They found that 157 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: men work about eight hours and eleven minutes a day, 158 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: whereas women work about eight hours and three minutes, So 159 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: very very small difference there, but nevertheless, we are putting 160 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: in a lot of time with childcare, household duties, all 161 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: of that off the clock. And I thought it was 162 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: interesting that sociologist Suzanne Bianci's analysis of couples time diary 163 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: data from two thousand three to two thousand five found 164 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: only a ten hour difference in the amount of household 165 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: and childcare work that non working mothers did compared to 166 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: women employed outside of the home. Yeah, and part of this, 167 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, it seems surprising you would think that a 168 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: mother staying home would be spending more time. But this 169 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: is part of a trend of upper middle class moms 170 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: being part of this intensive parenting idea, or, as sociologist 171 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: Annette LaRue calls it, concerted cultivation, which basically means that 172 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: the parents, in this case, the upper middle class mother 173 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: is aggressively grooming kids for social success and kind of 174 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: teasing out their talents by putting them in lots of 175 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: classes taekwondo, piano, ballet, whatever. And on the extrem and 176 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 1: of that, we might, uh, you know, think of Amy Chiwa, 177 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: a k a. The Tiger Mom, who is that huge 178 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: kerfuffle with her book talking about how she you know, 179 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: so rigorously raised her daughters who are now headed for 180 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: Ivy League schools. Um. And yeah, that's the question, Like 181 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: career moms are incredibly stressed out. We're all stressed out, frankly. Um. 182 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: But there's also the question of whether or not, to 183 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: some extent, are we doing this to ourselves? Are we 184 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: trying to mold these unrealistically perfect, imperfect in quotes, lives, 185 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: bring home exorbitant amounts of money, feeling fulfilled in that way, 186 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: keeping our bodies fit and healthy and you know, pleasing 187 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: our partners, and also raising these like blue ribbon children. 188 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: It sounds like a lot of word blue ribbon children. 189 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: I like that um Well article in New York Magazine 190 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: touched on this. It was was it was more focused 191 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: on does parenting make you had dis parenting itself make 192 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: you happy or not? And they pointed out that children 193 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: of women with bachelor's degrees spent almost five hours on 194 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: organized activities per week, as opposed to children of high 195 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: school dropouts, who spend two. That might not seem like 196 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: a huge division, but when you think about women with 197 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: super duper high power jobs and then coming home to 198 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: spend even more time with their kids, you know, waiting 199 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: for them in a waiting room of a dance studio 200 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: or whatever, that's a lot of time taken out. And maybe, 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure that you could also say, well, 202 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: it's completely worth it when you are totally in love 203 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: with your child, because it's your child. But nevertheless, we're 204 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: talking statistics here, and not surprisingly a two thousand five 205 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: per Research Center survey found that working moms feel a 206 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: lot more rushed throughout their day than non working moms. 207 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: But the thing is, it seems like if we're talking 208 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: about our working mothers happier than non working mothers statistically 209 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: full time not necessarily like forty hours a week, no, 210 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: but a little bit of work, goldilocks. Work just the 211 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 1: right amount of work, just enough work does a mother good. Yeah. 212 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: U n C. Greensborough study found that those with part 213 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: time jobs are subjectively happier than those without jobs or 214 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: with full time jobs. And this is sort of in 215 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: line with the January Rutgers University study that agreed that 216 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: flexible work options do allow that work life balance. So 217 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: if you work part time a couple of days a 218 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: week or a couple of hours a day, you still 219 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: get to go home, have dinner on the table for 220 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: your child, you know, play games with them or whatever. 221 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: But then you get to go and have mommy time 222 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,719 Speaker 1: at work. Frankly, yeah, yeah, And then it allows for 223 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: individuation that some full time moms feel robbed of because 224 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: a lot of their you know, all of their time 225 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: is absorbed by kids. But you know, at the same time, 226 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: women who are not working outside of the home can 227 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 1: still have plenty of other you know, non I guess 228 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: paying ways to cultivate their interest and give back to communities. 229 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: And so we're not saying that stay at home moms 230 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: are just sitting on their hands all day. But I 231 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: do think it says something that a little bit of 232 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: time outside of the home, doing some work, earning some 233 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: money makes us feel good. It just I think it 234 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: does make a lot of people feel good. Not to 235 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: mention you get to talk to adults, it's true. But well, 236 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: depending on where you work, I don't know, I don't know, 237 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: unless you work maybe at a preschool. Yeah, exactly. Well, 238 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: uh Bianchi, who we mentioned earlier and to other sociologists 239 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: John Robinson and Melissa Milky wrote Changing Rhythms of American 240 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: Family Life, which that New York Magazine article refers to 241 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: as data porn because it's just so many statistics found 242 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: that all parents today do spend more time with their 243 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: children than they did in nine including mothers, in spite 244 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: of the rush of women into the American workforce back 245 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: when the study started. And that's something that we need 246 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: to remember. I think we all often put and I 247 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: say we as though I'm part of the parental collect 248 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: out there, But it seems like there is a lot 249 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: of societal pressure placed on parents today to focused on 250 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: their kids all the time, when hey, we're actually doing 251 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: a pretty good job of that. Don't beat yourself up. 252 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: And with the recession, though, this whole to work or 253 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: not to work issue might just be a completely moot point, 254 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: because hey, you know what, you gotta put food on 255 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: the table somehow. So the question is if you bring 256 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: extra money in at least, does that buy you some happiness? 257 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: Surely it does, Surely it does, right, I don't know, well, 258 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: not so much. A two thousand three meta analysis by W. 259 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: Keith Campbell and Jean Twins found that married couples overall 260 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: marriage satisfaction went down if they had kids, and each 261 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 1: successive generation since the seventies leading up to us now 262 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: Kristen has been more put out, they say, by having 263 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: kids than the last. And part of this has to 264 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: do with as we go along down the decades, we 265 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: are waiting longer to have kids, so we're more secure 266 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: in our employment. Maybe we've been at our jobs longer, 267 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: or we have higher paying jobs, and so Twins frames 268 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: that are not so nice. Away, go ahead, and go ahead, 269 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: she said, now you know what you're giving up. So basically, 270 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: with the whole money aspect Campbell and twins, you're arguing 271 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: that if you quote unquote do things the right way. 272 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: You know, you set up your nice little nest egg, 273 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: you get yourself your sweet job, and you and your 274 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: whoever go on some sweet vey case because you're waiting 275 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: to have a kid until you've got that nice nest 276 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: egg tucked away. And then Junior comes along and three 277 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: am feedings and you're like, I missed that sweet vec Yeah, 278 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: because I missed three am being when I was awake drinking. 279 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: Now again, two parents out there, let us continue to 280 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: reiterate the fact that we are speaking in words of 281 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: that sociologist data porn. This doesn't take into account the 282 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: nuance of and and value and fulfillment of parenthood. Well, 283 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think my brother and his 284 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: wife are a very good example of that exact thing. 285 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: My brother loves his children, loves his children, those little 286 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: bundles of joy. Um. But right after my nephew was born, 287 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: we we went out to lunch and Dad gets up 288 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: and goes to the counter and my brother and I 289 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: are sitting there with the baby and the little baby 290 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: carrier thing, and he looks at me. He goes, Caroline, 291 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: if you ever decide to have children and get married, 292 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: enjoy your spouse for a long time, go out to 293 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: parties with your friends, drink wine, go to movies that 294 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: aren't children's movies, because all of a sudden, that's all 295 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: going to be gone. And I was terrified, terrified, I 296 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: tell you. I just think I was like nineteen, still 297 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: no kids or husbands. I know, I like wine and movies. Um, 298 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: it was just a great Cathy come image in my head. 299 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: But the question is, you're talking about the bundles of joy. Hey, 300 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: you know who we have not talked about really in 301 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: this whole conversation. We're just like me, me, me, what 302 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: about the kids? Oh yeah, what about the kids? You know? Mom? 303 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: Mom stressed out, dad's stressed out? Are the kids going 304 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: to fare? Okay? If we are working, if we are 305 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: not home doing whatever, what have you, are the kid's 306 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: gonna be all right? Well? Yeah, I mean it seems 307 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: like except for a basic, tiny little gap at the 308 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: very beginning where they're not not that they're doing terribly. 309 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: They eventually turn out fine, that's the end of the story. 310 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: That was a shakyus. Yes, well, it's the same thing. 311 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: And we talked about something like this in our Only 312 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: Child podcast that you know, only children, they have that 313 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: little gap when they first get to school, but then 314 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: they get socialized in their fine. It's really the same 315 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: thing with with kids of of who have working parents. 316 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: Meta analysis of child development litterally you're from the American 317 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: Psychological Association found no long term adverse effects of mom's employment. Yeah, 318 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: and like you said, I mean, aside from you know, 319 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: some developmental gaps at the beginning by adolescents, you know, 320 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, kids will be kids anyway. That adolescent brain 321 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: is gonna go crazy on its own, whether mom is 322 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: working or not, because the prefrontal cortex has yet to 323 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: fully develop. But that's another podcast. So as moms and 324 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: dads are completely stressing themselves out over making enough money, 325 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: enjoying live, drinking that wine when they can grab a glass, 326 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: the kids are gonna be okay. Yeah, So I mean, 327 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: just don't leave them alone. I spent a lot of 328 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: time alone as a child. I guess I did too. 329 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: At at some point I was old enough to it. 330 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: Didn't matter, I guess, not as a child, not as 331 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: a baby. They didn't like leave me alone next to 332 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: a stove that was turned on. I mean that said, 333 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: I don't know that I am the poster child of 334 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: like normal adult development, not because I make all those 335 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: weird voices. At least you don't say if you will 336 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: anymore right on the podcast anyway, I watch out, We'll try. 337 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: Uh so the whole question get back to our original question. 338 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,479 Speaker 1: Are working mother's happier? Not really? I mean, we're all 339 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: kind of stressed out. We all spend a lot of 340 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: time with our kids, which is great. And again by we, 341 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: I don't include myself because that's impossible right now. Um, 342 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: And it seems like a little bit of work outside 343 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: the home does give us a little bit of a 344 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: little bit of a boost. But since neither you nor 345 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: I can speak directly to this issue, working moms, non 346 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: working moms. Dad's anybody kids who are left home alone? 347 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: Right now? Yeah? Kids? Yeah, kids with working moms. I 348 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 1: know you're listening. We've heard from you. Let us know. 349 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that it is your life 350 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: better for working moms? Other is your life better by 351 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: your job? You wish that you could stay home. Do 352 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: you have that guilt? You know? I think that that 353 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: this is a very relevant topic that could use a 354 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,719 Speaker 1: lot of levelhead of discussion outside of the whole media 355 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: mommy wars. I mean, because it's all it's all value judgments, 356 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: it's it's all what works for you and your family, 357 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: and so we do we want to know what works 358 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: for you, So let us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff 359 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can send them, 360 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: and you can also post a comment on Facebook or 361 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. In the meantime, we 362 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: got a couple of letters here to read. I've got 363 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: an email here from Jessica in response to our episode 364 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: on age gaps and relationships, and she writes, I'm in 365 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: a relationship with a man twenty years older than me. 366 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: We're definitely on the outer edge of the statistics. We've 367 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: been together for four years and it has been absolutely fantastic. 368 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: It took me a while to decide if the backlash 369 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: would be worth it, but it has turned out just peachy. 370 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: I still agree with your point on generation gaps and 371 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: looking for different things in life, but from my experience, 372 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: as long as what you're looking for compliments the other person. 373 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: It's not much of an issue. He's not quite in 374 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: the December of life yet. But I do worry sometimes 375 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: about the point when our age difference will become a 376 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: true challenge. We were at Best Buy and I made 377 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: a comment about him not wanting to buy things online, 378 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: and the employee said, yeah, well, you know how parents 379 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: can be. I literally fell on the floor laughing. The 380 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: employee looked like a deer in the headlights and apologize 381 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: multiple times. I'm not easily embarrassed and try not to 382 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: take myself too seriously, so I just laugh about it. Overall, 383 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: we just meshed so well. The issues caused by age 384 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: are worth it because I'm spending my life with someone 385 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: I can't imagine living without. That does not quite peachy, Jessica, Okay, 386 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: I have an email here from Daniel about Chivalry. He 387 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: says that he loved the episode, but and there's always 388 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: a butt, isn't there. I see chivalry a little differently. 389 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: I believe that the chivalrous or courteous actions from men 390 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: toward women can be decidedly harmful. I'm sure you're aware 391 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: of the ejection against chivalry and even general courtesy, that 392 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: when men open doors for women or pay for dinner, 393 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: that it is oftentimes the extent of the male's involvement 394 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: in the relationship. It's not that these actions are wrong 395 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: in and of themselves. Feminists have an issue with the 396 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: action if a man opens a door to help a 397 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: woman but is absent and child rearing or house cleaning, 398 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: or if a man will pick up a check but 399 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: not be emotionally or spiritually present in the relationship. As 400 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: a male feminist, I still do the courteous actions for 401 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: my wife or other women and men in public, but 402 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: as I do them, I am reminded that this needs 403 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: to not be the extent of my involvement and effort, 404 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: especially in my marriage. Thanks Daniel, and I think it's 405 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: nice to open the door for people. I open the 406 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: door for men if they're behind me or you know whatever. Um, 407 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: but I do not like it when men pull my 408 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: chair out at dinner because then I don't know how 409 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: to sit down without, you know, I'm like, oh, when 410 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: are they going to scoot it in? Am I gonna 411 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: It's like a trust fall for dinner. That's the thing. 412 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: It's not the chivalry aspect, it's the fact that I 413 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: am an awkward scooter. You have to scoot scoot the 414 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: cheer in and a lot of times I'll like, not 415 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: pick my my butt up soon enough. And I'm gonna know. 416 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: I I was on a date and the guy pulled 417 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: my chair out, but I didn't know that's what he 418 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: was doing, and so I was like, oh, I guess 419 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: he's sitting there, and so I went around to the 420 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: other side of the table and he and the waiter 421 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: were just looking at me. That's why you should only 422 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: have dates at bars. You can just stay at the 423 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: bar not I'm not that in mind. Thank you all 424 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: over all? Right, Well with that again, our email address 425 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: is mom Stuff at Discovery dot com. We definitely want 426 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: to hear from you moms and dads out there, and 427 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: you can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at 428 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast and you can read the article are 429 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: working mothers Happier by all? That's by me christ and 430 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: Conger and find it at how stuff works dot com 431 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 432 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com brought to you by 433 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: the a reinvented two thousand twelve Camry. It's ready, are 434 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: you