1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Pod cast. Yeah, that that counts as an intro on Look, yes, 2 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: we've we've we've now started the podcast. The podcast that 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: we are starting is it could happen here, and I 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: it's me because for loong, I'm I'm doing I'm doing 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: the host thing, and I have a bunch of other 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: people with me who do a lot of things. I 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: have Garrison, yes, I have Sharen, yes, and I have Sophie, 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: our lovely boss. Sophie Lictor bed all praise on high 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: your words, not mine, weird. I did not enjoy that 10 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: at all my takeover. So so Sophie unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately 11 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: lacks to shear ruthlessness to crush the workers movement. Well 12 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 1: we will see. Yeahs to be determined, and I don't 13 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: buy it, So Sophie, Sophie is very sad. I'm sorry, Sophie. 14 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: Um So, when when we last left off Lennon, Lennon 15 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: has like in theory, crushed the last sort of remaining 16 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: factions of like the workers but who want democracy the factories. 17 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: But unfortunately for the Leninist like literally no many how 18 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: no matter how many workers they kill, and they are 19 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: going to kill enormous numbers of workers. The demand for democracy, 20 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: and the factory like just refuses to die for over 21 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: a hundred years. The development of the sort of mass 22 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: factory system and logistical infrastructure that you need to support it, 23 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: maybe most importantly coal mines and railroads that I use 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: to transport stuff generate this incredibly militant working class that 25 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: sees you know, democratic control over the workplaces like the 26 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: fundamental aspect of its liberation. Um. Ideologically, this is you know, 27 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: this is this is manifested in like a series of 28 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: interlocking beliefs about like the nature of the working class 29 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: and like what class society is, um, all of which 30 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: are sort of necessary components of this. Like it becomes 31 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: this like incredibly like this like instinctive formation of workers 32 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: council at the moment like an uprising happens. And this 33 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: is something that that's very interesting about about the twentieth century. 34 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: Is it, Like yeah, like what when whenever there's like 35 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: a crisis, someone someone like like about everyone in the 36 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: factory is like, okay, we're we we've taken control of 37 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: the factory now like we we were forming a council, 38 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: were forming a giant assembly, and like we don't do 39 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 1: this anymore, and we're gonna come back to like why 40 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: we don't do this anymore? But like this hasn't happened, 41 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: Like the last time it happened was like in Argentine 42 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: and two dozen't one and I don't even know if 43 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: Garrison Garrison might have been alive for that. Thanks, But 44 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: like it's well, I will say. The other time it 45 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: does happens when after after a recording session, when our 46 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: boss Sophie leaves, meet me and Chris will stay on 47 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: the line to talk, usually about Star Wars, and that 48 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: in a way kind of is a worker's counsel just 49 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: for the factory of podcasting. Yeah, talk about Star Wars 50 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: in front of me. I feel so bad for Sophie. 51 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: Next next, next time, puppy face, that's okay. Featuring your 52 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: petite bush wat tactics won't work on me. Oh god, Well, 53 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: all the people on the Separddit who think that we 54 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: hate Sophie are going to just have a feel day 55 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: with this episode. Conspiracy is my favorite recurring conspiracy theory bit. 56 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: That's a real conspiracy o man o, man wow, I've 57 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: a lot of catching up on to you. You do 58 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: not because it's not true run away. So meanwhile, meanwhile, 59 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: so it in the period when people actually like did 60 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: this seriously, you know, there's a lot of sort of 61 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: ideological things that come together to make it so that 62 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: when people like you know, like when when bread prices 63 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: increased too much, this is what people do. Um. And 64 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: a lot of this has to do with the physical 65 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: experience of what being a worker is in like you know, 66 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: the n centuries, like you have these like these these 67 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: these these incredibly rapid like technological expansions, and you know, 68 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: the people who are who are doing this stuff like 69 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: see themselves as the creative of the new world, right like, 70 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: and this is like literally this is happening, Like, these 71 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: are the people who are literally like they are building 72 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: the cities, right like all of the sort of the 73 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: infrastructure of the modern world is physically being created by them. 74 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: And this creates this you know, like if you're the 75 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: person who is like who has transformed like this fishing 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: village into this giant industrial city, right um, you know 77 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: you you you see yourselves as the creator like literally 78 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 1: physically the creator of this new world is being developed. 79 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: And then the second belief that that it produces that 80 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: drives this movement is that the people who produced this 81 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: world should be its inheritors and so and this this, 82 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: this sort of this is what drives the workers movement 83 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: in this period, which is that like, okay, so if 84 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: if you if you are literally physically creating the new world, 85 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: and you think that because you have created it, it 86 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: should be yours. Uh, the next that the thing that 87 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: you do, because it's not yours, right, like you don't 88 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: like yeah, you know, like the people who build cities 89 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: are not the people who owned the cities. And you 90 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: know if you see this, yeah, like yeah, okay, like 91 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: in the city is actually owned by like three real 92 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: estate speculators and like a bunch of cops and more 93 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: applicable examples like the people who build the cup podcast 94 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: is not own the podcast. Yeah no, we don't own 95 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: the podcast. Like we we are exactly applicable result that 96 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: you know that can of that. You know, everyone understands 97 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: that example. Yeah we I actually don't think that people 98 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: understand that we don't own the podcast. It's actually unclear 99 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: to me. I I people people have weird things about 100 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: how podcasting works. But yeah, we don't own the podcast. 101 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: We just create it and we do all the work. 102 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: And then Sophie sits in her leather chair looking down 103 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: at all the leather chair. Think, I think at all 104 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: my podcast creations I have created, and then all of 105 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: us past so bad? How could you think I could 106 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: sit here on an five degree day in a leather 107 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: chair to Sophie, at least get your facts right, my 108 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: word a chair? Continue, Chris. Okay. So for for for 109 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: the people who are like actually watching their boss, like 110 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: sitting around smoking a giant cigar in a factory while 111 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: they pound like hammers, or like work at a hospital 112 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: and get a watch like just started a massive cigar 113 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: and a comically large to prop. But because for the record, 114 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: whenever I do hang out with my other boss, Robert, 115 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: he often does sit in some chair smoking a cigar, 116 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: and I do think it is in fact leather. Okay, 117 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: So we're describing Robert before me, the slave away in 118 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: my laptop writing scripts and yeah, just work in the 119 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: podcast minds. Yeah, it's it's it is. It is really 120 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: hard out there, yea, and continue. So okay, So, like 121 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: the belief that you produced the world and that if 122 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: you produce you should own it. It's like this this 123 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: is not unique to the part of the workers movement 124 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: that like you know, thinks that also you should like 125 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: have a democracy and the factory and like you should 126 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: have the autonomy to decide how you do your work 127 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: and what needs to be done. Uh. That those beliefs 128 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: like broadly comprise the ally of like the entire workers movement, 129 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: and and by you know, by by the twenty century, 130 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: the workers movement is really really broad, right, I mean 131 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: it stretches from sort of like really mild social democratic 132 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: trade unionists to like the intellectual heads of these like 133 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: Leninist vanguard parties. But what what makes the democratic wing 134 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: unique is that their concern is the fundamental alienation of 135 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: factory life. And and this this is i mean, originally 136 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: like it is very much factory life, but like this 137 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: this gets expanded out as this goes on into sort 138 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: of the like the fundamental alienation of labor itself, which 139 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: is just this condition of being reduced to an object 140 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: by bosses who use you as a tool to do something. 141 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: And you know, and this this is a concern for 142 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 1: everyone in some sense, but but for the Lenins and 143 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: social democrats, alienation is just like a product of ownership 144 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: or distribution. Right. So you know, if if that's what 145 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: you believe the way you defeat alienation is through the 146 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: working class of productive capacity, not in it, not in 147 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: sort of like any kind of like in a human 148 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: like humanity of creativity. Like all I to do is like, well, okay, 149 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: you flip a switch, right, and the factory is now 150 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: owned by the state instead of being owned by like 151 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: JP Morgan or something like, Now your alienation is gone. 152 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: That's how it works. Yeah, Or and and your social democracy. 153 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, so you you you you flip 154 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: a switch and taxes get higher, and now you have 155 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: a union, but you're still working for gold You're still 156 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: working for the Goldman Sachs. But you know, but for 157 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: for for for for the wing of the workers movements 158 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: that you know actually cares about democracy. This doesn't solve anything, right, like, 159 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 1: as long as the fundamental relation of being the like 160 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: of being an object rights. As long as like you, 161 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: fundamentally the worker are are not are not a human 162 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: being who has agency and control and autonomy over their life. 163 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: As long as you're just an object that you know, 164 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: like you're you're like you you you're a living human 165 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: tool that the one man ruler of the factory can 166 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: like you know, can can wield round to do whatever 167 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: they want as as long as that persists. Changes in ownership, 168 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: structure and need like health benefits missed the entire point, 169 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: and this kind of the degradation that comes from just 170 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: being a tool can only be solved by returning agency 171 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: and autonomy to the working class. And that means like 172 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: actually giving the class control over the production process. And 173 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, in in in six in Spain, workers are 174 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: like funk this and decided to take the entire thing 175 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: into their own hands. And they do this by just 176 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: seizing their workplaces and mass and this becomes known as 177 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: a Spanish revolution um and it is one of the 178 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: most extensive sort of experiments. And like workers democratic self 179 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: managements or like whatever whatever you want to call people 180 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: making their own decisions in the workplace like that has 181 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: ever happened, like especially in the modern era. Like everything 182 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: from like public utilities to like bakeries to hospitals to 183 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: shoe factories like falls under the direct control of these 184 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: like democratic unions. And once their bosses have been like 185 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: you know, chased from the premises and like flee and 186 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: terror uh, these workers set about like transforming the entirety 187 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: of Spanish society along democratic lines, like they pulled their 188 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: resources together collectively and that they allocate them democratically for 189 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: the benefit of society as a whole. And for a 190 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: brief moment this works. They have this incredible, like this 191 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: triumphant experiment democratic self managements, and output increases dramatically and 192 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: social services are expanded, and like in in In in 193 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: the span of two years in the middle of a 194 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: civil war, like the workers of Spain are able to 195 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: create a universal health care system that expands kara into 196 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: like like rural areas of Spain where like you couldn't 197 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: get it before. But you know, the problem is once 198 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: again is that this is happening to the civil war 199 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: and and a lot like you know, using sort of 200 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: like nominally anti fascism like as as they're sort of 201 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: like you know, they're using the threat of the need 202 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: to post fascism as as a sort of front like 203 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: a French for what they're actually doing. You get this 204 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: alliance of liberals, liberal socialists and Stalinists who just like 205 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: brutally stamp out any attempt that you democratic self management, 206 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: and like you have like Soviet car duration like n KVD, 207 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: like Soviet secret police, guys like literally leading armies into 208 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: into these cities and like like like killing the workers 209 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: and then physically like taking control of these factories that 210 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: people had sees and giving them back to the bosses, 211 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: which is you know, this is this is great. This 212 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: is a great communist stuff. And yeah, the you know, 213 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: and this this this ends exactly how you would expect 214 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: it to end with. Oh yeah, like this this the 215 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: Stalinists get everything they want. They murder all of the 216 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: people who want like a factory council, and then they 217 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: all get killed by Franco. But you know, undeterred by 218 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: sort of the casualty tolls of these like massacres by 219 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: people who want bosses. Uh, this just keeps happening, and 220 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, by the time you get to like all 221 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: this stuff is back like there there's there's factory councils 222 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: again in Hungary, you get them in Italy and France 223 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: and the Zichoslovakia eight there's like like they're they're, they're, 224 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: they're there's councils being like there, there's there's communes being 225 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: formed in like Vietnam. There's like they're there. We've talked 226 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: about the Court on Asonu in in Chile on the 227 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: show before, Like, these things are happening everywhere, and I 228 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: think Hungary in particular is a really interesting one because 229 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: so there's a revolution in Hungary against sort of the 230 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: Soviets in the X that's it gets a lot of 231 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: the same liberal mythologizing that you get with Tenemen, but 232 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: like kind of more egregious here. So I don't know, 233 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: I think, like I got taught this revolution in schools 234 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: is like one of the few ones that we actually get, 235 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: and they taught it as this like this is like 236 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: the Hungarian revolution was just like kind of nationalists, like 237 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: liberal democratic revolution for people who wanted like democracy and 238 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: freedom and like free markets. And then like you know, 239 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: if you go read about what the people were at 240 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 1: but people actually doing the revolution we're saying, you get 241 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: quotes like this, This is a direct quote from a 242 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: member of one of the Hungarian workers councils the time 243 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: when the boss is decided, our fate is over, and 244 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: it's like, ha, these these got these guys do not 245 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: seem like I don't know, these guys don't steam like 246 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: liberal democrats that something weird is happening here. That's something 247 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 1: that's actually happening is it like Hungarian workers like sea 248 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: control of their factories and like the workplaces, and they 249 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: formed workers councils the overs of the government and then 250 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: the Russian slaught of them all. But you know, like 251 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: this is not a liberal democratic revolution at all, that 252 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: this is a revolt against the tatorship in the workplace. 253 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: And there's an identical revolts break out across both the 254 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: capitalist world and the communist world, and in the newly 255 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: de colonized society start seeing them too, and you know, 256 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: and to the sort of like dismay of both the 257 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: communists and the capitalists who are both like, oh my god, 258 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: why is and we keep forming workers councils like this 259 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: solution to alienation, Like it's not like an ideological thing, right, 260 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: Like it's it's not that there's like a group of 261 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: people who are like secretly infiltrating these countries and being like, okay, 262 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: you needful workers councils. This this is this stuff is 263 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: happening in places where there's just like none of that. 264 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: So like what one of one of the sort of 265 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: like movements that does stuff like this is is the 266 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: revolution in Algeria? Um, you know, and they're like they're 267 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: there they were like Algeria like does have a pretty 268 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: high level of political education, but the political education they're 269 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: getting is from like it's it's from the National Liberation Front, 270 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: which is like asofar As, it's any one thing. It's 271 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: like it's a nationalist vanguardist movements, which is you know 272 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: that they're the people who like fight the French colonizers 273 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: and beat them. And their ideology like asofar As, you 274 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: can describe one idea allogion. Like the thing that they 275 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: want is like the state having this decisive role in 276 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: national development. But you know, immediately it's taking power off. 277 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: And Bambella, who's Algeria's first president, like discovers that, you know, 278 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: he he's not actually going to be the one like 279 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: making the decision about what the country's economic cruature is 280 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: going to be because he takes power and a whole 281 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: bunch of like French people who live in Algeria of flee, 282 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: and basically what happens immediately after is that all of 283 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: like all of these this property that had been originally 284 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: like held by by by French sort of colonists, like 285 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: it gets immediately seized by the Algerian working class and 286 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, they build their own workers councils, and you know, 287 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: BenBella is like, Okay, I guess I guess we have 288 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: like workers councils now, like I guess I guess we 289 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: have sort of like autonomous democratic production and BenBella is 290 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: like kind of trying to undermine them. But he doesn't 291 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: really get a chance too, because once again there's a 292 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: military coup and BenBella, like he I think he escapes, 293 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't die. But like the fact that the councils 294 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: all sort of get dismantled again. But like the number 295 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: of times this has happened is getting just like completely 296 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: out of hand, and it's like yeah, okay, the it's 297 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, so every time this happens, they murder everyone. 298 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: But like, you know, the revolutions keep happening, and they 299 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: keep happening, and they keep happening, and you know, even 300 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: even as late as like the late seventies, like it's 301 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: not clear that that that like it's it's not clear 302 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: that the people who want one man role the factory 303 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: are gonna win. Like there's this moment in Italy nineteen 304 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: seventy seven where it's like this this like giant student 305 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: Student and Worker Coalition almost takes power. Um, Like in 306 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: Spain even after like fifty years of of like Franco 307 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: and like the fascist octatorship, like the c n T, 308 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: which is the anarchist union that had done the revolution 309 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: like reappears in the seventies again even though everyone thought 310 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: it was gone, and like, you know, this is a 311 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: real this is a real source of strife for especially 312 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: the sort of capitalist managerial elite. Who are you know 313 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: they this stuff keeps happening. It's like okay, like it 314 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: is an unacceptable risk that one of the one day, 315 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: one of these groups is going to win. And so 316 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: they start looking for a way to like dismantle this 317 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: sort of like systemic things that like create that that 318 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: caused people to do this. But you know, but they're 319 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: but they're trying to do it in a way that 320 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: doesn't involve them giving up their power. Um. So yeah, 321 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: it's Vicky Austen. While it's out this sort of like 322 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: this like instinctive embrace of like democracy and the factory, 323 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: like as a political program, it's only possible as long 324 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: as factories, as long as like the factory functions is 325 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 1: the point of encounter. Her. I think It was her 326 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: term for which she calls it a darker Gora, which 327 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: is like, so Gore is like like the sort of 328 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: like the Greek marketplace in the center of a town. 329 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: Everyone goes there and you like talk about things, right, 330 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: and the factory serves as this kind of like it's 331 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: this sort of like dark version of it where like, 332 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you know, it facilitates these interactions 333 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: that allow people to sort of like identify with each 334 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: other and like you know, create collective meaning by like 335 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: interacting with each other. But on the other hand, it 336 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: exists to exploit you, and it's like terrible and you're 337 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: just getting you know, you're getting physically and socially destroyed 338 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: like every moment you're in it. But you know it's 339 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: it's still is a place where you can like assemble 340 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: an identity as like like you and a bunch of 341 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: people around you can go like, hey, like we are workers, right, 342 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: like we are the working class, and this this is 343 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: like a shared political identity that you have that allows 344 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: you to do things. And so the thrust of sort 345 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: of the attack against this takes the form of this 346 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: attack on like the shop floor as like a site 347 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: of like formation of identities that that can allow you 348 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: to mobilize stuff. And so this takes like a number 349 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: of forms. Um most famously, there's there's it's the industrialization 350 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: and this sort of like spatial relocation of factories. So 351 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: like like part of what's going on, right is that 352 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: you have a you have a bunch of people who 353 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: work in a factory, and then they live like around 354 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: like right around the factories. Right, they work in a 355 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: coal mine, and the eyyone lives in a town around 356 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: the coal mine. And this means that everyone sees each 357 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: other constantly, and they're like constantly like running into each 358 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: other and like physically talking to each other. And you know, 359 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: this is a really good way to create radical politics. 360 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: So what happens is you these factories get sent out 361 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: to the suburbs, and this allows you to create places 362 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: where you know, workers are isolated from each other, and 363 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: you know, and the other thing you can do is 364 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: you turn workers into homeowners and you sort of like 365 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: buy them all off for this combination of like cheap 366 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: credit and this promise that like their houses will not 367 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: be a financial asset. And so as the sort of 368 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: eighties rolls on, the sort of the the like the 369 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: herald of democratization of finance replaces democrazation. The factory is 370 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: sort of the capitalist class. Like the other thing they 371 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: do that's like really insidious is they they tied like 372 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: the remaining union pensions into the stock market. And this 373 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: is stuff like you see today with like four O 374 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: one case, and it means that like if you want 375 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 1: to like have a retirement, you are like physically literally 376 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: invested in the stock market, which ties you know, which 377 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: ties everyone sort of like into the system. And corporations 378 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: start to turn workplaces into these like enormous propaganda apparatus. 379 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: Is you get like like Walmart in particular, has these 380 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: like like these vast ideological like programming things that they 381 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: run that are designed to sort of like get you 382 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: to identify with like the corporation itself and not with 383 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: like the other people you're you know, like the other 384 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: people you're within the class as a whole, and you know, 385 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: and like the other thing that they're able to do 386 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: is the fact that capital is mobile and workers like 387 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: aren't allows you know, combines with like logistics advances, and 388 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: it means that like if workers ever start getting an 389 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: upper hands somewhere, capitalists can just leave. And the process 390 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: that you see is that as this sort of the 391 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: total number of people working in in the like in 392 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: industrial work keeps decreasing, right as a cential of the population, 393 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: it keeps decreasing. And as this happens, capitalists are just like, okay, scirt, 394 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: we're gon, we're gonna, We're gonna pick up our tools 395 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 1: and leave. And this spits out like enormous populations who 396 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: are just like kicked out of pratitional workforce entirely. And 397 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: these developments, this is what actually like eventually destroys the 398 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: classical workers t mouvement is the abilability to leave in 399 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: the sort of destruction of the factory is like a 400 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: site of stuff. But in order for this to work, 401 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 1: the one thing they need is a place to move 402 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: to write. They need somewhere with this large exploitable labor 403 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: supply that has been like crushed enough that it won't 404 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: revolt against them. And the capitalist class finds that in 405 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: our products and services, and we're we're we're back. We're 406 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: we're back, and we're we're back to China. And Okay, 407 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: so I've been talking about the way this sort of 408 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: like this this whole system like this whole factory system 409 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: mass production stuff like develops. But China is weird because 410 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: this is the one place where the factory system works 411 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: like really differently than everywhere else. Um. There's a lot 412 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: of reasons for this, one of which is it like 413 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: so Chinese like stayed on firms. It's like almost impossible 414 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: for them to fire someone because I mean there's a 415 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: lot of reasons for this, and one of them is 416 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: that like people's entire sort of social sphere is built 417 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: around their work unit. And like their work unit is 418 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: like it's it's the company you work for, and there's 419 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: this whole sort of like legal apparatus built around it, 420 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: and it's like you know, and like this like unit 421 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: gives you everything from like your retirement, like it like 422 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: feeds you. Like there's often like entertainment stuff like tied 423 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: into it, like you healthcare, you get like childcare from it. 424 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: And the CP also gets rid of the peace rate system, 425 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: which is just like this is this thing that like 426 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so there's a lot of capitalist places 427 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: to work with this word's like okay, so the peace 428 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: rate system is you pay people for like every unit 429 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: of something they produce, So like you get paid by 430 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like how many like how many 431 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: pounds of like cherities you can pick. And so the 432 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: USSR brings this back because the USSR and the US 433 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: are really not that different. But China is like, nah, 434 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: this like sucks. This is capitalism, and you know, okay, 435 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: like I'm gonna say, the fact Chinese factory system is great, 436 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: but like because they don't have the peace rate system 437 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: is because they can't fire people. You get this very 438 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: you get this weird thing where it's like the people 439 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: who run the factories like don't have very good ways 440 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 1: to force people to work, and because of this, they 441 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: like they sort of like have to allow this degree 442 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 1: of participation in the worker process, like in the labor 443 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: process that like you don't really see most of the 444 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: places and the everything they have that I luckily Garrison 445 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 1: and I also have this is we have the ability 446 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: to criticize our bosses. Although we we have more of 447 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: this these guys. But one day, go ahead, one one okay, 448 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: we we we've got it. We we don't we don't 449 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: have our big character poster yet, but like one day 450 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: Garrison and I are going to show up to the 451 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: office with like giant big character posters with your faces 452 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: on it. They like have specifically Roberts are gonna have 453 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: a list of crimes on it. My favorite part of 454 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: like big labor protests when they make those giant like puppets. 455 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: If we just make a giant's tick puppet version of 456 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: Robert and Sophie that we just prayed around the office, 457 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: that's long as mind's bigger than Robert's, that's fine, we 458 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: can do that, great right, full support. So we were 459 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: got to do this in China. It's it's weird, like 460 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: you have the ability to do this, but like it's 461 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: like run to the party, and so if someone gets 462 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: unpopular enough, like the party will like start a campaign 463 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: about how bad like that one boss is, and then 464 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: you can show up to like the meeting and go like, hey, 465 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: I hate my boss. This guy sucks. But then it's 466 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: replacing with like another boss. Right, So it's not like 467 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 1: it's not actually a democratic system really, but the way 468 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: that it works ensures that like the people who are 469 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: managers are like pretty popular at least to some extents, 470 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,239 Speaker 1: like are popular and people don't like really hate them. 471 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: And this means that you know, because there's all of 472 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: this stuff that makes the Chinese factor is different from 473 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: like the other systems, and also because of like structural 474 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: stuff in Maoism that I mean, I could talk about that, 475 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: but I don't like talking about Maoism. But basically the 476 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: product of this is that, like you have in China 477 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: during this period a lot of demands for democracy, but 478 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: they're really they're not they're not tied to the workplace 479 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: at all. They're they're they're mostly like political demands for 480 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: like democracy in the party or stuff like that. And 481 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: that means, like you know, at least in the cities, 482 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: this system like kind of works okayish until the Cultural Revolution, 483 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: where everything falls apart. And this means that it is 484 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: at long last time for me to do the Cultural 485 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: revolution rant, which is something I have been planning for. 486 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I'm very I'm very excited about this. I've 487 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: been waiting for an excuse and I finally have one. Okay, 488 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: So the cultural revolution rant is that everyone gets the 489 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: Cultural revolution completely wrong, Like everyone every like it's like 490 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: it's it's one of the rare events where like it's 491 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: misinterpreted in like exactly the same way by both people 492 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 1: who support it and the people who oppose it um 493 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: and Okay. The first thing to understand about this, right is, like, okay, 494 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: so the the initial the very very beginning of the 495 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: culture revolution, like it's basically a in sort of like 496 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: teenagers kind of like it's like middle schoolers essentially, and 497 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: they're attacking these they're attacking like other kids at their school. 498 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: And these kids are kids who have what's called a 499 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: black blood background, like black blood, which means that like 500 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: they're they're the children of people who were from like 501 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: quote unquote bad class backgrounds. And this is really weird 502 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. One because you have you 503 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: have a sort of like a pseudo class system based 504 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: on like who your parents were, right, you have people 505 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 1: who have red blood who had like good class backgrounds, 506 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: like your parents are workers, or your parents worked with 507 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: the party or something. And then you have people who 508 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: are from like bad class backgrounds quote unquote, who like 509 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: are persecuted and like, okay, like I don't really care 510 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: that much if you're like persecuting like a Shanghai oligarch 511 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: who like collaborated with the French and Japanese imperialists or whatever. 512 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: But like a this extends to like the children of 513 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: these people and a lot of the children these people 514 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: weren't even alive when their parents were like you know, 515 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: like doing stuff that was bad. And the other thing 516 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: is that like the term bad class background this is 517 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: really loose. Like I I know people whose families were 518 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: declared like declared like black class backgrounds, who have black 519 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: blood and like you know, they're they weren't allowed to 520 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: hold in the government position. And the reason that this 521 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: happened to them was that her dad had made bird 522 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: feeders before the revolution and they considered that like petite bourgeois. 523 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: And it's like this is like this is like like 524 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: what like what what are you doing? Like you you 525 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: you reproduced like you've turned class into like a pseudo 526 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: race thing that's like her like you like inherit from 527 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: your parents, even though like their parents don't own property anymore. 528 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: Because it's it's really bizarre and and and what's what's 529 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: happening here is the kids from the red class backgrounds 530 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: are are are you know, they're they're the kids of 531 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: the new of the new Chinese elite, and they're just 532 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: like picking on attacking the kids who are like now 533 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: this this sort of like like my minority class and 534 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: so what it amounts to at the beginning of this 535 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: is a bunch of privileged, rich kids who are like 536 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: attacking a bunch of kids are being persecuted for stuff. 537 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: It's like not their fault at all. And you know, 538 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: part and the other, the other part of this, like 539 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: this is the part of the people. I think. Yeah, 540 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: it's like Mao is trying to like play power games 541 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: inside the party blah blah blah blah blah. But you know, 542 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: things get more and more chaotic, and you get you 543 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: get circutting his attacks on like CCP bureaucrats and cadres 544 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: and stuff, because Mao is trying to like Mao was 545 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: trying to solidify his place in the party and he's 546 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 1: like blah blah blah. There's other stuff that's happening. Um 547 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: but then it gets really interesting. Um. So, so the 548 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: starts in at six, right, and at the very beginning 549 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: of sixty seven, there's something there's something called the January Storm, 550 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: which is where a bunch of rebel workers just seize 551 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: control of Shanghai and like they run the party out, 552 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: they run the other they run I think they run 553 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: the army out too, And you know, and now like 554 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: they they control the city of Shanghai. And this is 555 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: like an oh funk moment from Mao because you know, 556 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: now he has to deal with this city that has 557 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: been taking over by its own working class. And I 558 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: found this this incredible line from Joe and Lai who's 559 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: having meeting with Mao and they're trying to figure out 560 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: what to do about the fact that like this, this, this, 561 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: like that Shanghai has been seized by by these workers 562 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna read this. When asked whether the 563 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: new leadership should be elected from the bottom up, Joe 564 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: and ly replied bluntly that quote anarchism is bound to 565 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: develop if we immediately implement direct elections of the Paris 566 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: Commune type. And I think this is like this is 567 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: this really incredible, like like the thing you can find right, 568 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: because it's like, okay, well, there's two things that can 569 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: happen here. One is either like, okay, you you you 570 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: you give these people democracy and the ability to vote, right, 571 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: and Joe and Lyon Matt look at this and you're like, 572 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: that would be anarchist if we can't do that. And 573 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: the second thing is you don't do that, and you 574 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: oppressed them and they take the second line, and you know, okay, 575 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: like it takes them a bit to get this ramped up, right, 576 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: It takes them a bit to get the sort of 577 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: kind of revolution thing they're doing to like stop all 578 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: of this rebel stuff that they've started to to get 579 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: it takes some about a year. But but by ninety eight, 580 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: the students and the workers who had like you know, 581 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: done done this sort of uprising stuff so are getting slaughtered. 582 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: Like's just master killed on an unimaginable scale. Uh. And 583 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: this is this is where everyone gets the Culture Revolution 584 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: completely wrong, because everyone the entire memory of the Culture 585 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: Revolution is from basically the first two years of it, right, 586 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: which is like all the stuff about like like you know, 587 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: like professors being marched out onto the street and dunce 588 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: caps and like students like humiliating the professors and like 589 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: like party officials being like marched around with like placards 590 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: on them, and like people like that's something like the 591 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: chaos of the revolution. Like that's that's stuff everyone remembers. 592 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: That's the first two years of this. There's still like 593 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you can are like there's there's there's the 594 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: short the short the quote unquote short culture revolution, which 595 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: is like the high point of the activity goes from 596 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen nineteen sixty nine, and then there's like a 597 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: longer one that goes to like the death of maud 598 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: If and how you want to count it. But almost 599 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: all of the actual violence in this period happens in 600 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: this in in in the third phase, which is the 601 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,239 Speaker 1: so the first phase of the Didicial uprising, and then 602 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: the rebel groups start fighting each other. But then phase 603 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: three is when the state like cracks down on like 604 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: start starts like starts trying to crush this like rebel 605 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: student factions. And I'm going to read from Walder who 606 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: did ah, so is this guy n in Walder who 607 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: who went to he did a bunch of work in 608 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: the Chinese archives, which he like went and like found 609 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: the death tolls. And I'm gonna read like he like 610 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 1: he goes he'll s a bunch of archives. He goes 611 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: to a bunch of state archives, and he like like 612 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: tracks down the death certificates and tracks down like who 613 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: died where? And this this is what he wrote about it. 614 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: More than three four of all documented deaths and local 615 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: animals are due to the actions of authorities in the 616 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: in this third phase and then more than of those 617 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: persecuted for alleged political crimes. So what are he's saying 618 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: here is that seventy five percent of all of the 619 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: deaths the entire Culture Revolution weren't done by like the 620 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: revolution parts. They were done by the state murdering the 621 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: workers faction, the rebel factions. And not only that, nine 622 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: of of the actual political persecution was done by the 623 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: states and not by the rebels. And when when when 624 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: when you actually look at what this means, Like this 625 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: means everything everything anyone ever talks about the Culture Revolution 626 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: is completely wrong. It wasn't like the thing had happened 627 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: to the Culture Revolution. Wasn't that sort of student radicalism 628 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: got out of control and they started killing everyone that 629 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: preaces all this violence. The thing that actually happens is 630 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: that there's a student like uprising, right, But what happens 631 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: is that the sort of conservative and state factions just 632 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: slaughter them. And I Walt Walter estimates that the total 633 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,959 Speaker 1: number of people dead, it's somewhere between one point one 634 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: and one point six million people, and again, like seventy 635 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: five percent, and I think it's actually slightly higher than that, 636 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: like percent of the people who were killed in this 637 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: are killed by the state, and you know this, this 638 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: has an enormous effect on I mean just everything that 639 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,480 Speaker 1: happens in Chinese and Chinese society from then on, because, 640 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: on the one hand, the popular memory of the Cultural 641 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 1: Revolution persists as this thing that was like, this is 642 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: what happens if you like if people outside the party 643 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: and like students in radicals like start like making trouble. 644 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: Is that you get all these people dead. But then 645 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: you know, you have the people inside the state who 646 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: like know how many people they had to kill in 647 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: order to hold onto power, right, they kill they kill 648 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 1: probably more people than like the you know, there's there's 649 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: there's there's a very famous massacre of like communists or 650 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: like suspected communist Indonesia that doesn't get called a genocide 651 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: because it was technically on political lines, but like it 652 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: was one of the worst Eni coommunist massacres in history, 653 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: and they killed more people from that during this period, 654 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: and that like that level of violence and the fact 655 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: that the people running the state understand what they had 656 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: to do, it means you get you get an elite 657 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: that's incredibly paranoid about like anything that like smells like 658 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: organizing happen outside the party. And the other thing happens 659 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: is that like the most radical students and workers of 660 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: this period just get that they're all dead right. They 661 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: killed they killed like they they killed like a million 662 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: people the you know, for for for for for every 663 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: one person who got killed, there's about nineteen people who 664 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: were like persecuted in a lot of way. And that's 665 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: like a lot of people are tortured. A lot of 666 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: these people are like sent to prisons. They're like like 667 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: really horrible stuff happens to people. And this process keeps 668 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: going like through through the seven Like there there's a 669 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: huge spike in like state killings nineteen seventy, and by 670 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: by the end of the seventies, like anything that's sort 671 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: of like could have cohered into into like a movement 672 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: that like wants democraty in the workplace, for example, it's 673 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: just gone. Because all of all of the radicals, like 674 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: and anyone, anyone who wanted anyone who wanted democraty in factory, 675 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: any the people who were like even sort of like 676 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: just like sort of rebellious, like these people have all 677 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: been killed. And the consequence of this is that throughout 678 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: the through the eighties, you get the politics that's driven 679 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 1: by this like sort of like intellectual liberal like liberal 680 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: democratic politics that ignores completely ignores work class entirely. And 681 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: you know, and these these people start to take power, 682 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: and you get danjel Paying. Well, I think I think 683 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: it's it's like right before it takes power. But danjel 684 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: Ping wise up implementing the one child policy, which is 685 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: this like incredibly draconian and really successful attempts just like 686 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: re established the states like patriarchal control over the household 687 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: and strips like hundreds of millions of women from like 688 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: like of of of autonomy over their own bodies, and 689 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, and and and and and it really looks 690 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: like through through the through through through like the late 691 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: seventies and the eighties, it looks like like the Chinese 692 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: ruling classes succeeded, right like they finally destroyed that they 693 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 1: finally destroyed like any opposition to them. But then you know, 694 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: things get very weird, which is that itemen happens and 695 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: you know by by by night nine, like the whole 696 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: like like as as a rule, like in general everywhere 697 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: the sort of classical workers neve meant that was like 698 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: at demanding democracy the factory. Like they're basically done, and 699 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: so they're they're unable to sort of do their own 700 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: revolutions now. The only thing they can do is sort 701 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: of like latch onto other stuff. But the problem that 702 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: the party has is that so they've had a lot 703 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: of measures in place to try to make sure that 704 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,360 Speaker 1: you never got these kind of movements in China, and 705 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: they kind of worked. But when it went through the nighties, 706 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: like China starts implementing a market economy, right, they start, 707 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: they started they started like cutting this the welfare state. 708 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: They start like destroying the sort of like limited control 709 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: that works has had in the factories, and they kind 710 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: of like unknowingly reproduced the conditions that have been producing 711 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: these revolutions in every other country. And you know, as 712 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: this massive inflation wave hits, they turned China into this 713 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: powdern keg and this you know, and this combined with 714 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: so like the liberal democratic students moving gets you this 715 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: really interesting and weird ideology that these workers happen. I'm 716 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: going to read it from from an interview with with 717 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: with one of the workers who was a gentleman. Why 718 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: do a lot of workers agree with democracy and freedom 719 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: in the workshops, does what the workers say count or 720 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 1: what leader says? We later talked about it. In the 721 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: factory the dictatorship. Sorry, in the factory, the director is 722 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: a dictator. What one man says goes. If you view 723 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: the state through the factory, it's about the same one 724 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: man rule. Our objective is not very high. We just 725 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: want workers to have their own independent organizations in work units. 726 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 1: It's personal rule. For example, if I want to change jobs, 727 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: the bus company foreman won't let me go. I ought 728 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: to go home at five at five pm, but he 729 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: tells me to work overtime for two hours. And if 730 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: I don't cut my bonus, this is a personal rule. 731 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,399 Speaker 1: A factory should have a system. If a worker wants 732 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: to change jobs, they ought to have a system of 733 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: rules to decide how to do it. Also, these rules 734 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,959 Speaker 1: should be decided upon by everyone and then afterwards anyone 735 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: who violates it will be punished according to the rules. 736 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: This is rule by law. Now, we don't have this 737 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: kind of legal system. And okay, that's a really like 738 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, I think it's a really interesting sort 739 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: of like fusion of a whole bunch of stuff. Right, 740 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 1: because on the one hand, like the sort of like 741 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: ruling discourse that's happening that the things that students are 742 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:29,919 Speaker 1: talking about is like that we need the democracy, read 743 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: the rule of law. And but you know, the workers 744 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: in these factories are looking at are looking at like 745 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: the situation they're facing, and they're like, ha, we don't 746 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: have a democracy like here either, right, And so you 747 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: get this, you get what's a really conservative framing of 748 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: the sort of a very sort of very classical like 749 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 1: critique of woman ruling the factory that has been happening 750 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: for like, you know, like a hundred years. But what's 751 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: just thinking about this is that like any actual attempt 752 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 1: to like do this right get gets you to workers control, 753 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:07,280 Speaker 1: like democratic workers control in the factory. And as Walder 754 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: who wald Walder also wrote another like he's a guy 755 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: who went and interviewed a bunch of the people who 756 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: have been of workers who have been involved with this, 757 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: and as as they point out like this unlike really 758 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 1: like any other time in Chinese history, like the the 759 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: people who are part of like the Beijing Autonomous Workers 760 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: Autonomous Federation are you know, they don't they don't have 761 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: an intellectual class like this. These are these are just 762 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of workers and they have very little connection 763 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: like they don't they they have very little like political 764 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: connections right like beforehand, like to to the laberal circles 765 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: are just sort of hearing what they're reading and this 766 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: is this means like what you have here is like 767 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: it's not like an intellectra like this is. This is 768 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: just a bunch of workers and for you know, for 769 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: for for like one final time, their instinct when when 770 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: the revolution sort of like starts, is the demand democracy 771 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: in the factory. And this demand, like above all others, 772 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: is completely politically unacceptable. And you know, and when when 773 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: the army markers on Beijing, it's it's these workers that 774 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: they wipe out, and they wipe them out so thoroughly 775 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: that the fact that this is what these people were 776 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: fighting for is it's it's scrubbed. For the record of 777 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: the DCP, it's scrubbed like the protomocracy move it doesn't 778 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: remember it, even though their entire thing is memory. And yeah, 779 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: and this this ensures that the meeting of these actual events, 780 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: what the people were fighting for, what they were trying 781 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: to do, has been almost completely lost. And I think 782 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: at this point we can finally ask what what what 783 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: actually was tianeman Um And in some sense in the 784 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: in the Chinese context itself, it's a transition between two 785 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: different Chinese working classes. These protests are sort of like 786 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: this is the last like political sort of like mobilization 787 00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 1: of like the of the old Chinese working class, which 788 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: is in these people who had been in the cities, 789 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: who had been like they had been the beneficiaries of 790 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: this old sort of like socialist period welfare state, and 791 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: these people in in the streech around Chaneam and they 792 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: mount the last attack of the of the classical workers stutments. 793 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: And when they lose, this entire class like this, this 794 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: this entire urban working class that had been around since 795 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: like the twenties, that have been sort of the driver 796 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: of Chinese radical politics, that had been like that have 797 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: been have been fighting and striking for like seventy eighty years. 798 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: They they're they're gone. They're completely destroyed. And over the 799 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: course of the economical structure in the nineties there they 800 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: ceased to exist as a class, and they're replaced by 801 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: a new Chinese working class, which is drawn from sort 802 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: of these rural and sort of semi urban under classes 803 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: of the old social system who are like draggings, who 804 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: are dragging the cities from from their villages, from their towns, 805 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: and who now fill actually, well, I don't I don't 806 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: know what the numbers are today because it's weird because 807 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: of COVID, But like there were two and seventy seven 808 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: billion of these people of this enormous market worker like 809 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: force who formed the backbone of like the entire Chinese 810 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: working class. And these people who they have rural house 811 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 1: and registrations, and this means that they don't get any 812 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: of the benefits, like the sort of like welfare benefits 813 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,279 Speaker 1: that you would get from living in a city. And 814 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 1: this means that they're you know, the they they constitute 815 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 1: like an entirely new class of of workers. And instead 816 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: of you know, like whatever sort of privileges had had 817 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: been like carved out by the old working class, this 818 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 1: one gets nothing. And the other thing that they get 819 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: is this entire raft to sort of capitalist ideology that's 820 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: based into like every aspect of their workplace culture. This 821 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: this is massive attempt in China to get people to 822 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 1: buy homes and you know, the like when where the 823 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: old working class could at least like positive the factory 824 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,839 Speaker 1: is like a place where you could have democracy, where 825 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: like life could be improved by like different controlled factories. 826 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: Like this new working class like the thing that they 827 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: want the most is to leave the factory and become 828 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: a business owner. And you know, like this this probably 829 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: sounds familiar to like us, right, Like this is this 830 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: is the old joke about like about the about the 831 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: American working class, which is that everyone sees themselves as 832 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: temporarily temporarily embarrassed millionaires and like yeah, you know, in 833 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,720 Speaker 1: modern China, it's like, yeah, okay, it's like people consider 834 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 1: themselves to be like temporarily embarrassed small business owners. And 835 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: this stuff. This, this this ideological self conception of like 836 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to work in the factory, that I'm gonna 837 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,759 Speaker 1: become a small business owner is completely inimical to the 838 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: formation of like the classical or reservement. And there hasn't 839 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: been that kind of formation in China sense. And this 840 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: this is not really unique thing, right that the death 841 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: of that workers movement has seen a sort of like 842 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: complete and total collapse of the demand for like democrat 843 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:05,080 Speaker 1: self management like everywhere across the entire world. And you know, 844 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: incredibly stubborn lee, like the working class like refuses to 845 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: sort of cohare itself in the factory. And so in 846 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,839 Speaker 1: this sense, China is really just relate to the game. 847 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: They they they got slightly earlier, they got, they got 848 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: slightly later to the point that we're at now. You 849 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: said there was gonna be a happier ending. They had. 850 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: The happy ending was last episode. This episode is this 851 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,359 Speaker 1: episode ending is really depressing. Well, I mean, okay, they're they're, they're, they're, 852 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: they're Okay, there's a slightly less depressing note kind of Okay. 853 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: The thing that's less depressing here is that for my 854 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: entire literally my entire lifetime has been the US lurching 855 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,839 Speaker 1: from one economic leaps so another, and the world, the world, 856 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: like the international economic system. Like I think I was 857 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 1: born in like the middle of like the dot com collapse, 858 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: and then I got eight and then like there's been 859 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of economic collapses in the last like three years, 860 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: and you know, the whole system has like learned from 861 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: crisis to crisis to crisis. And that means that there's 862 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: been an incredible, just like a rapidly increasing number of 863 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: revolutions everywhere. Even though the sort of like darker gore 864 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,839 Speaker 1: of the factory, like as ceased to be this thing 865 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: that like creates the working like the identity of the 866 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: working class. And this means that you know, okay, so 867 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: in order to have some kind of mass movement, you 868 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: need some kind of collective identity to to mobilize around. 869 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,279 Speaker 1: And you know, if if you can't make this in 870 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:44,839 Speaker 1: the factory, the place where it's going to be made 871 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: instead is the street. And this means in the last 872 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, like twenty yes years, like with with without 873 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,800 Speaker 1: the sort of positive identity in the workplace to to 874 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: to to hear itself around, workers are really only a 875 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: sort of mobilize on a mass basis, like indirect opposition 876 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: to a threat that can that can that can confront 877 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: like everyone at the same time. And this is the 878 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 1: only thing that can do this is really the state. 879 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: And you know, the state has the ability to to 880 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,800 Speaker 1: increase the price that basic commodities and slash wellfare benefits, 881 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: and that becomes the only available enemy. And so yeah, 882 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 1: if if you look at what revolutions have been in 883 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,280 Speaker 1: the last twenty years, it's a constant fight against the police, 884 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 1: because fighting in the police is the only thing that 885 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: can that can allow you to create a new social identity, 886 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 1: like a sort of sort of collective identification, and you know, 887 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 1: and so this means it collected like modern revolts, like 888 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: everything we've seen over the last like four years. The 889 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,880 Speaker 1: form that it takes is mass street movements and you know, 890 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,280 Speaker 1: continuous confrontation with the police. And you get to literally 891 00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: see this with with occupy, right. Occupied was originally like 892 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,160 Speaker 1: the like the slogan occupy was about the Argentina in 893 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: factory occupations in two one. But then you know that stops, 894 00:47:57,480 --> 00:47:58,800 Speaker 1: like that's the end, like just one like that that 895 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,399 Speaker 1: that's that's the end of the whole cycle. There's there's 896 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: no more factory occupations actually stitude. You get one in 897 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: Bosnia has A Govia, which is funny because it's like 898 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: they occupy a bunch of factories, but like they don't 899 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: know what to do with them, and so you get 900 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,359 Speaker 1: just like a regular like occupy like in like into 901 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 1: the sort of like square occupation you'd get in like 902 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: New York or whatever, where everyone's sort of like sitting 903 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,759 Speaker 1: in a circle talking about stuff, but it's happening in 904 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,800 Speaker 1: a factory. But but they're not like trying to run production. 905 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 1: They're not trying to do any of that stuff. They're 906 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: just sort of like they're in the factory. Isn't is 907 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: no longer this sort of like space of like creation 908 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 1: and possibility that could be turned into something new. It's 909 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: just like a place where you go that's like indistinguishable 910 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,480 Speaker 1: from like a square. And you know, the last ten 911 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: years it's like people people. Originally it was like it 912 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,239 Speaker 1: doesn't let right, so everyone's everyone's occupying squares. But you know, 913 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,719 Speaker 1: by by Bouz fourteen, people have figured out that you can't, 914 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: like it's it's almost impossible to hold a square if 915 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: the police attempt to run you out. And so this 916 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: gets your place with running street flights with the police. 917 00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,800 Speaker 1: But this, you know, this places everyone who's trying to 918 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: do this in this incredibly dangerous bind because you know, 919 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 1: the like the old workers councils were able to bring 920 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 1: down states, like largely they got crushed by outside militaries, 921 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,200 Speaker 1: but they are able to bring down states because you know, 922 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: there is an enormous amount of power in being able 923 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: to control production. But the problem is that like you know, 924 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,800 Speaker 1: if you're in a square, right, like you don't have 925 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,520 Speaker 1: the ability to do that and with without the sort 926 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,799 Speaker 1: of without the factory occupations alongside them. There have been 927 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:30,560 Speaker 1: a lot of general strikes in the last four years. 928 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,600 Speaker 1: There's want of peruse one in France, there's someone in 929 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 1: Hong Kong and Soudan, and every single one of them 930 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,840 Speaker 1: has been crushed. But you know, but but this is 931 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,200 Speaker 1: a real problem, right because the current labor conditions aren't 932 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,719 Speaker 1: going to produce another way of factory occupations, and so 933 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: the way forward for anyone who, like you know, wants 934 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,320 Speaker 1: to have a democracy in the workplace is completely unclear. 935 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 1: And I think, I think that's the actual legacy of 936 00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,880 Speaker 1: Tiana Man. The workers who are assembled outside Tianamen Square 937 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: had already left their factories, and you know, for for 938 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: for all that they spoke the language of the old 939 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,520 Speaker 1: workers movements, right, they spoke a democracy in the factory 940 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,520 Speaker 1: and one man rule. They stood and fought and died 941 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,560 Speaker 1: like we do in the streets. There's this bridge between 942 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: sort of the classical workers movements and us, and you know, 943 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,800 Speaker 1: they face the same revolutionary crisis that we face. The 944 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: crisis of Popular and Palestine, Columbia, on Iran and Myanmar, 945 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,440 Speaker 1: or Hong Kong, of this, this crisis of victory that's 946 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: just beyond the horizon, can't be grasped. You know, I 947 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,239 Speaker 1: don't think the people at Cenomen have any answers to 948 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,919 Speaker 1: give us, Like, I don't think they do. I think 949 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,320 Speaker 1: they ran, They ran headlong into the crisis that we 950 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 1: ran into, and they all died. Yeah. I think expecting 951 00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,959 Speaker 1: answers from the dead is demanding too much of those 952 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,279 Speaker 1: who before and after us died fighting for liberation. And 953 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,040 Speaker 1: all we can really do now is find our own 954 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,560 Speaker 1: way when, with the names of the dead in our lips, 955 00:50:53,640 --> 00:51:03,319 Speaker 1: build the world they died fighting for. It could Happen 956 00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 1: Here as a production of cool Zone Media and more 957 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,480 Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone 958 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,360 Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I 959 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,719 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 960 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,400 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 961 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,959 Speaker 1: monthly at cool Zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks 962 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: for listening.