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Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go

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Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on

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Speaker 1: the link to our channel in our show notes, This

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Speaker 1: episode of Mission Implausible dealing with the Jeffrey Epstein scandal

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Speaker 1: was recorded several weeks ago, so like a lot has

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Speaker 1: happened since then.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea.

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Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers

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Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 2: And part of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive

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Speaker 2: our adversaries.

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Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the

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Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you

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Speaker 3: may not have heard.

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Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated?

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Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. Today's guest is

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Speaker 3: Tara Palmyrie. She's an American journalist. She's worked in a

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Speaker 3: variety of news organizations. She has a great sort of

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Speaker 3: YouTube podcast show that she does now very focused on

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Speaker 3: on Epsteen and the Maxwells. So, Tara, thank you very.

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Speaker 2: Much for joining us.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, my show, The Terra pal Mary Show, is

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Speaker 5: a political podcast because I've long covered power and politics,

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Speaker 5: but I've also covered the Jeffrey Epstein story for a

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Speaker 5: long time as well since his death, and I did

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Speaker 5: some investigative podcasts and magazine story and another number of

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Speaker 5: other things, and I stay in touch with the survivors,

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Speaker 5: and I've just kept digging when a lot of people

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Speaker 5: kind of gave up on the story.

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Speaker 4: So that's where we are right now.

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Speaker 5: But I do think it's the perfect story that intertwines

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Speaker 5: power and politics, which has always been my focal point,

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Speaker 5: my north star in my career, even when I was

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Speaker 5: based in Brussels covering the EU and brexitst and the

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Speaker 5: populist movements over there, and then when I was a

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Speaker 5: White House correspondent covering Trump for ABC News.

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Speaker 4: No, I like to tangle with power.

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Speaker 5: I try to figure out what's going on there, and

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Speaker 5: I'm always fascinated by the personalities behind it and how

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Speaker 5: it really works well.

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Speaker 3: And since this podcast, we try to talk about conspiracies

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Speaker 3: and conspiracy series thing plays on a variety of levels

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Speaker 3: with that thing. But one of the things I've become

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Speaker 3: interested in lately is if you look at the Epstein

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Speaker 3: history and what in the investigations and then he talks

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Speaker 3: about quote unquote files and that type of thing. This

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Speaker 3: isn't just a US story, really, this is an international story.

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Speaker 3: It involves Maxwell's, it involves a lot of other governments

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Speaker 3: and probably to include Russia and Israel and a number

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Speaker 3: of other places. But it's become like a really core

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Speaker 3: US political story, and that we almost think that the

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Speaker 3: Justice Department has all the answers on this, and that

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Speaker 3: it's up to Trump to let it go or not

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Speaker 3: let it come out. But don't a lot of foreign

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Speaker 3: governments have pieces of this and understand what's going on.

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Speaker 3: So if there's bad things in there about powerful people,

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Speaker 3: it's not just in the Justice Department. It's held by

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Speaker 3: others as well.

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Speaker 5: It's probably very much held by mi I six, who

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Speaker 5: is tracking and xandrew around and his cavorting with various dignitaries.

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Speaker 5: I mean, if you have a royal who's out there

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Speaker 5: trying to do business deals with foreign dignitary, I would

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Speaker 5: think you'd want to keep track on that. He obviously

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Speaker 5: has access to information his mother, who saw who who

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Speaker 5: loved him the most really of all of them. You

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Speaker 5: know the fact that she's getting a briefing from the

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Speaker 5: Prime minister every week. He has a certain status, and

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Speaker 5: I can't imagine that they weren't keeping track of him.

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Speaker 5: And we know that Jeffrey Epstein liked to brag about

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Speaker 5: spending time with African dictators Vladimir Putin. He liked to

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Speaker 5: show off the fact that he was friends with random

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Speaker 5: princes from countries that don't even have monarchies anymore, but

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Speaker 5: still have a certain status that gives them access to

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Speaker 5: the upper echelon of wealth and finance in society. And

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Speaker 5: so those were the circles that he swam in, and

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Speaker 5: I think that gave him access to more valuable secrets.

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Speaker 5: I mean, who holds who hold you know this being spies,

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Speaker 5: former spies, there you go, who holds all the information

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Speaker 5: that you need most the time?

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Speaker 2: So Epstein, for some people means, oh, you know the

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Speaker 2: list that was the client list, supposedly that was on

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Speaker 2: Pambondi's desk. That's what it is, or it's something else.

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Speaker 2: And looking into this, the roots of this go back.

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Speaker 4: To the Lenmarxwell, yeah, but it goes back to her father.

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Speaker 2: People don't maybe not realize Americans may not realize who

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Speaker 2: he is. He was sort of the rupert Murdoch this day,

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Speaker 2: but it actually goes back to like the nineteen fifties

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Speaker 2: even late forties, when he was in Berlin where apparently

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Speaker 2: he signed an agreement to work with the Russians, with

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Speaker 2: the Soviets, and this thing balloons out. There's elements that

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Speaker 2: are in France. There's elements of espionage, there's elements of money.

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Speaker 2: There are mysteries involved, like where did Epstein get his money?

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Speaker 2: How did he I mean, he wasn't qualified for any

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Speaker 2: of these positions that he got into, including his first

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Speaker 2: teaching positions. So there's all these mysteries. How would you

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Speaker 2: describe the entire Epstein drama.

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Speaker 5: I think he's an international con man that various agencies

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Speaker 5: across the country found across the world, excuse me, found

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Speaker 5: to be useful because he offered them information on people

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Speaker 5: that he blackmailed or spent time with, and he used

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Speaker 5: sexual embarrassment at a way to get information or became

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Speaker 5: involved with them in ways that were criminal. But he

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Speaker 5: was the one who was willing to go to the

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Speaker 5: authorities first, like for example, in the Financial Towers Ponzi scheme,

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Speaker 5: it was a three hundred million dollar scheme. This was

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Speaker 5: early on in his the largest Ponzi scheme in the

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Speaker 5: world at the time with Stephen Hoffenberg. It's been reported

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Speaker 5: that he spoke to prosecutors at least three times. Now

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Speaker 5: his partner in that scheme, Stephen Hoffenberg, spent the rest

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Speaker 5: of his life in prison, but Jeffrey Epstein did not.

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Speaker 5: You know, he was involved as an informant on a

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Speaker 5: Bear I believe it was Bear Stearn's case, but there

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Speaker 5: was another financial case that he was involved in. But

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Speaker 5: this was his network, and he's useful to all of

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Speaker 5: these people. Also, I thought something that was interesting that

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Speaker 5: came up in the Glenn Maxwell tapes when she was

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Speaker 5: interviewed by Todd Blanche Not that I take everything she

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Speaker 5: says at face value, but for a very long time

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Speaker 5: she denied the connection between her father. Excuse me, sorry,

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Speaker 5: Robert Baxel, who I did an entire podcat away called

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Speaker 5: Power the Maxwells. You will enjoy it because it is

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Speaker 5: very succession S. It's very Rupert Murdoch. That's going to

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Speaker 5: help you understand how influential of a figure he was

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Speaker 5: at the time, like she was the equivalent of Elizabeth Murdoch,

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Speaker 5: or or even more so, because she was a socialite,

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Speaker 5: hanging out with the royals, and she was written about

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Speaker 5: in the newspapers as being this beautiful young socialite. So

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Speaker 5: and he was going to buy the New York Daily News.

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Speaker 5: He owned the Mirror in the UK. He would fight

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Speaker 5: for newspapers against Rupert Murdoch. He had MTV Europe, he

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Speaker 5: had Peregrine, so he'd even the McMillan and some of

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Speaker 5: the other top scientific publishing houses. So he had a

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Speaker 5: lot of influence through publishing. But it was interesting because

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Speaker 5: she admitted in this tape that actually her father vouched

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Speaker 5: for Jeffstein for a job in finance, when clearly he

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Speaker 5: was a college dropout known for being a sex pest

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Speaker 5: out of high school that he taught at a Dalton

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Speaker 5: And here's Robert Maxwell vouching for him. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 5: how do they know each other? And that's always been

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Speaker 5: the question. There's always been a theory that he introduced

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Speaker 5: Glenn to Jeffrey and then funneled money to him offshore,

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Speaker 5: laundered money, knowing that either Masad was going to get

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Speaker 5: him because he was too compromised, or he was going

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Speaker 5: to have to kill himself because he squandered all the pensioners' money.

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Speaker 5: He dies off the side of his Yeah, Robert Maxwell,

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Speaker 5: the Lady Glen by the way, everyone around these people

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Speaker 5: die mysteriously, So he dies off the side of his yacht.

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Speaker 5: I suddenly think, and you guys can correct me if

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Speaker 5: I'm wrong, but I think he was probably too compromised

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Speaker 5: because he had stolen all this money from the pensioners,

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Speaker 5: and Masad wanted to get rid of him, and that's

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Speaker 5: why he was he died. These people, these men, they

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Speaker 5: are not the suicidal type. I was actually talking to

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Speaker 5: Mark Epstein last week, and Mark Epstein is Jeffrey Epstein's brother,

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Speaker 5: and we were saying, I said, do you think that

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Speaker 5: Jeffrey Epstein would kill himself? Like you know him, he's

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Speaker 5: your brother, And obviously he wants he doesn't want it

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Speaker 5: to be marked as a suicide because he won't get

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Speaker 5: the insurance money, right, and he can prove foul play,

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Speaker 5: can sue the government. Yeah, yeah, there's more money in

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Speaker 5: it for him if his son, if his brother was killed.

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Speaker 5: But I do think there is something the level of

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Speaker 5: ego to like ego maniacs, narcissism, that do not make

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Speaker 5: them the type that killed themselves. They think they can

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Speaker 5: get out of everything. They treat people terribly. You don't

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Speaker 5: steal from pensioners and not think you can't.

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Speaker 4: Get out of it. So I think he was killed.

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Speaker 5: He funneled the money to Epstein, who got it to

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Speaker 5: Glenn Maxwell. Now we don't have any bank transfers, we

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Speaker 5: don't have anything to prove that. But how did Glenn

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Speaker 5: Maxwell live in New York City and when she got

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Speaker 5: there only have a hundred thousand dollars to her name.

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Speaker 5: He's bankrupt and suddenly she's living, you know, in a

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Speaker 5: She's living in a multimillion dollar apartment next to Jeffrey Epstein's,

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Speaker 5: which is the biggest townhouse on Upper Eastside. It just

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Speaker 5: seems like, why would he just take care of this

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Speaker 5: woman who didn't even want to have sex with according

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Speaker 5: to his tapes.

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Speaker 3: I would tell us a little bit more about Robert Maxwell,

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Speaker 3: because I remember Maxwell his paper in Britain was people

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Speaker 3: believed it was actually funded by in Russian interests.

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Speaker 5: Is that I think that there was certainly a feeling

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Speaker 5: that Robert Maxwell was not what he seemed. You know,

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Speaker 5: I didn't know that at the time that people thought

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Speaker 5: it was funded by Russia, and I didn't. We didn't

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Speaker 5: hear that, but there was certainly a feeling that he

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Speaker 5: was not working for the UK government. Although he ends

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Speaker 5: up being an MP at one point a member of Parliament.

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Speaker 5: It's not amazing.

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Speaker 4: And Robert Maxwell, that's not his real name. He was Coslamakia, right.

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Speaker 2: He was a check to who just was able to

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Speaker 2: get out in nineteen thirty nine before the Nazis marched in.

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Speaker 2: He did end up in British intelligence in the OSS

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Speaker 2: during the war, and then after the war was posted

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Speaker 2: in Berlin, where he maintained a close relationship supposedly, it said,

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Speaker 2: with the Soviets. But then later he rose up and

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how, but he became a great power

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Speaker 2: inside of the UK, a publisher and a newspaper baron.

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Speaker 2: And then in the end it turns out he stole

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Speaker 2: basically all his pincherders' money, had gone bankrupt, and died

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Speaker 2: mysteriously on his falling off his yacht. Now you mentioned Mosad,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not really not clear on if there's what

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Speaker 2: or if the relationship is between Maxwell and Mosad was

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Speaker 2: during the fifties, sixties, seventies.

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Speaker 5: He was buried in the Mount of Olives in Israel,

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Speaker 5: which is reserved.

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Speaker 2: You're rich, she could do that, but it you know,

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Speaker 2: but do you think so, oh yeah, if you're rich enough.

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Speaker 4: Here's the thing I don't understand.

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Speaker 5: It seems to me like all of these men are

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Speaker 5: sort of playing off a bunch of different intelligence agencies.

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Speaker 5: Did you ever see that often when you were working

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Speaker 5: in the region. I mean, it just seems like these

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Speaker 5: these men kind of are They're not your everyday asset.

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Speaker 5: They're powerful men, and they seem to be being able

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Speaker 5: to sort of work for all different agencies, and they

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Speaker 5: probably give them preferable like business terms, because you know,

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Speaker 5: it's almost like it's valuable.

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Speaker 4: It's valuable for your business.

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Speaker 3: It's valuable to the Russians that have people in other

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Speaker 3: countries that are sort of compromised with the Russians because

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Speaker 3: they can do even lots of stuff to benefit benefit

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Speaker 3: the Russians. And I remember I think there was a

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Speaker 3: art clause reading recently where it said that one of

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Speaker 3: the British Foreign Office reports, like in the late fifties

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Speaker 3: said that his program on press could be a front

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Speaker 3: for Soviet scientific espionage. But when you say intelligence agency

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Speaker 3: and stuff, it's hard for us because CIA was a

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Speaker 3: foreign intelligence organization, So like going after just rich people

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Speaker 3: who were sort of I don't know, had newspapers and stuff,

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Speaker 3: wasn't part of the game, right, I mean, maybe the

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Speaker 3: Israelis for some purpose, certainly the Russians.

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Speaker 2: Right. I think if if Robert Maxwell, who he was

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Speaker 2: an incredibly powerful individual in the sixties and seventies in

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Speaker 2: the UK, if he wants to talk to Mosat to

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Speaker 2: pass on some information, I'm sure they'll listen. But there's

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Speaker 2: a difference between that and him being controlled by that

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Speaker 2: sort of gets into conspiracy theory. I think oftentimes rich

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Speaker 2: people will try to manipulate intelligence agencies with information, right,

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Speaker 2: and then try to get governments to do what they want.

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Speaker 2: We've certainly seen that, you know, in the run up

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Speaker 2: to the In the run up to the Iraq War,

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Speaker 2: there were a number of dissident Iraqis who work into

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Speaker 2: members of the Republican Party and to you know, elements

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Speaker 2: of the US intelligence community, mostly the military, who were

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Speaker 2: you trying to get them to invade? But so Maxwell dies,

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Speaker 2: his daughter gets together with Jeffrey, and money starts to flow.

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Speaker 2: Now back to Jeffrey Epstein, He's a college dropout and

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Speaker 2: yet he still gets a job teaching at this high school, right,

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Speaker 2: this elite high school Dalton. He doesn't have any teaching certificates,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't have college education. So how does he get

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Speaker 2: this job.

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Speaker 5: Well, he's working for Bill Barr's father, as in the

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Speaker 5: former attorney general. The web of powerful people around him

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Speaker 5: is so it's so amazing. He owned a modeling agency

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Speaker 5: called mc squared and his partner, Jean lup Brenell, mysteriously

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Speaker 5: dies in a French prison hanging himself.

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Speaker 2: This is this is epstinc not Bar's father.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly, And so it's just like everything around him

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Speaker 5: is just so mysterious. How are these people so interconnected?

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Speaker 5: He's got meetings with Bill Burns, who you guys know,

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Speaker 5: he was a former deputy Secretary of State. He met

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Speaker 5: with Jeffrey Epstein, he goes on to be CIA direct.

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Speaker 5: I mean, he had really high level contacts and they

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Speaker 5: were willing to meet with him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean yeah, rich people are all around each other.

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Speaker 3: And when you go back to like he had these

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Speaker 3: connections with agencies. You know, frankly, if you have that

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Speaker 3: kind of money and that kind of clout, it's relationships

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Speaker 3: with politicians that are much more valuable for you. So

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Speaker 3: if you go over the heads of agencies, if you're

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Speaker 3: friends with the with the Prime Minister and your friends

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Speaker 3: with the president, and you're friends with people around, then

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Speaker 3: you can get things done because they tell agencies what

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Speaker 3: to do, and they actually the ones can move money

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Speaker 3: and move things around. So you know, if you're in

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Speaker 3: with the royal family in England and you're in with

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Speaker 3: the Prime Minister, and you're in with the you know,

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Speaker 3: Prime Minister of Israel and stuff, you can you can

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Speaker 3: move around as you wish.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree, But also sometimes it's like you need

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Speaker 5: the bureaucrats from time to time, and Secretary of State

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Speaker 5: is a pretty powerful politician. I would say, but.

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Speaker 3: What's he going to do for I mean, he met

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Speaker 3: him once. My guests would be Bill Burns has met

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Speaker 3: like one hundred and fifty thousand senior people.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know what.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what, what does he want?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so this guy's a registered sex offender who procured

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Speaker 5: a mind of a prostitution. He's getting a seat with

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Speaker 5: the Deputary Secretary of State, who goes on to BCIA director.

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Speaker 5: And here's the one thing I noticed from the emails

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Speaker 5: and all the reporting on his relationship with Jess Staley.

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Speaker 5: So when he was at JP Morgan, he was Epstein's

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Speaker 5: banker even after this defender sex offense. And the thing

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Speaker 5: that was so interesting to me is that when things

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Speaker 5: weren't going well with Jess Staley and and he had,

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Speaker 5: you know, set Jess Saley up with women snow white

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Speaker 5: and beauty and the beasts, and just Daley admitted to

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Speaker 5: having an affair with a woman who we met through

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Speaker 5: Jeffrey Epstein, and they had maintained this relationship with Jeffrey Epstein,

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Speaker 5: and that relationship with JP Morgan really sort of allowed

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Speaker 5: him to get back into re ingratiate himself into these

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Speaker 5: upper classes. So this was very valuable for him, and

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Speaker 5: Jes vouched for him, and so did a number of

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Speaker 5: others at the highest levels. But the point is that

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Speaker 5: when Jess Staley started to be started to see that

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Speaker 5: he was getting pushed out of the bank, Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 5: helped him land a job as CEO of Barclays Bank.

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Speaker 5: Certainly connecting and doing things for all these wealthy and

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Speaker 5: powerful men. They weren't just around him for just like,

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Speaker 5: oh yeah, Jeffrey Epstein's a laugh. What a great time

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Speaker 5: that creepo is. There was something in it for them.

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Speaker 3: And it's and it's partly him providing women at parties

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Speaker 3: and things, or what's the.

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Speaker 5: What's the I think it was partially providing women. Money laundering.

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Speaker 5: I think it was trafficking. I think putting money offshore.

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Speaker 5: I do think a big part of it, though, is

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Speaker 5: like once he knew that you did something that would

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Speaker 5: cause social embarrassment, he didn't have to say it to you,

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Speaker 5: but there was a known Yeah, It's like just like

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Speaker 5: an implied knowing, and when he asked you to invest,

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Speaker 5: you did it. I mean we saw Mark Rowan, who

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Speaker 5: led it Apollo Hedge Fund, give Epstein hundreds of million dollars.

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Speaker 5: It's crazy for state planning and tax purposes, Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 5: wasn't some like master estate planner. The reason I keep

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Speaker 5: going back to the banking industry is because at least

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Speaker 5: you can follow the money there, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: Where it's a little bit more difficult when it comes

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Speaker 5: to influence, because I think that's what we're talking about

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Speaker 5: right now, is influence and information.

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Speaker 2: Right so is former agency officers, you know, we would

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Speaker 2: meet hundreds of people. If you're on a diplomatic tour,

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Speaker 2: you've meet hundreds of people and playoff at oh I

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Speaker 2: know so, and so when you call somebody new, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we have someone in common and name them like okay,

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Speaker 2: have lunch. But then there's a weaning process. So the

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Speaker 2: fact that some Jeffrey Epstein or a CIA officer meets

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Speaker 2: somebody doesn't mean much if it's one or two meetings.

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Speaker 2: But we're also trying to figure out is how their

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Speaker 2: vulnerabilities here are there is this person useful to me?

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Speaker 2: And there's a sort of a weaning, weeding out process.

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Speaker 2: And so for for Jeffrey Epstein, I my sense is

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Speaker 2: there was a large funnel on one end where he's

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Speaker 2: trying to meet everybody, and he's also trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out who is of use to him, who's black mail bull,

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Speaker 2: who was looking for women, who's looking for you know,

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Speaker 2: things that only he can provide. And I don't think

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Speaker 2: every person who met him is, but I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: those are the people he focused on. So just for

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Speaker 2: starters though, so he's fired from this job, you know

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Speaker 2: at the high school.

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Speaker 5: I think he did the Ponzi scheme first and then

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Speaker 5: he worked bear Searns, then Less, but it's unclear how

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Speaker 5: far back the relationship was all and what he did

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Speaker 5: for Les Wesner, who was the founder of Victoria's Secret,

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Speaker 5: he wasn't actually working for the company.

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Speaker 4: He was managing as personal wealth.

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Speaker 2: That's right, managing as wealth. And the same for ever

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Speaker 2: acrabt infants.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they own yeah, it's called l brands, and they

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Speaker 5: own bath and body works.

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Speaker 4: Basically they own malls, everything you see in the mall.

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Speaker 2: Okay. One of the most tries I'd like to die

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Speaker 2: into though, is how is his human trafficking? And one

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Speaker 2: of the mysteries for me is in the US, if

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Speaker 2: there were hundreds of women who were abused this way

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Speaker 2: taken to the island, it seemed to me at least

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Speaker 2: now a lot of them would be willing to come forward.

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Speaker 2: But my understanding is a lot of these women were

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Speaker 2: pulled out of like Eastern Europe and the Soviet you know,

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Speaker 2: former Soviet Union in Russia, which means that there would

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Speaker 2: be money involved, which means that there would be room

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Speaker 2: for Russian you know, Russian intelligence services in mafioso to

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Speaker 2: get involved in this. It would also be one reason

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Speaker 2: why one none of these women would come forward because

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Speaker 2: they're like, hey, we you know, we've got Natasha in

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Speaker 2: Moscow and if you like fuck with us, you know

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Speaker 2: we'll have her talk. Right. That gives them Russians control

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Speaker 2: as well. So what is your sense of now of like,

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Speaker 2: what do we understand about the human trafficking network that

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein was I think clearly involved in, because that

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Speaker 2: would also involve money, transfers, travel, there would be digital dust, right,

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Speaker 2: You've got to write back, it'd be somehow emails back

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Speaker 2: and forth, communication involved all these things. Sometimes can't you

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Speaker 2: do this without without all these trails?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So there were a number of girls that he

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Speaker 5: found from Eastern Europe, Asia, et cetera. We don't know

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Speaker 5: these girls like, they haven't come forward. In fact, it's

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Speaker 5: mostly the American girls. And if you notice it, and

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Speaker 5: by girls, I mean they're women. Now they're my age,

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Speaker 5: I'm older. There's probably only about two dozen of them

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Speaker 5: that have come forward, I think, and the FBI estimated

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Speaker 5: a thousand, which probably means there's even more, rightoms. So

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Speaker 5: a big part of that is fear. Fear because of

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Speaker 5: the men involved in these circles fear. Some of them

399
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Speaker 5: just received NDA payouts. Some of them are just afraid

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Speaker 5: because they know what could happen to them, or they

401
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Speaker 5: don't want to deal with the stress, or they don't

402
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Speaker 5: want people to know, or they have that shame. There's

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Speaker 5: so many different reasons why. But in particular when it

404
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Speaker 5: comes to the girls that were foreign, I think they

405
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Speaker 5: used that modeling agency to traffic girls. That was certainly

406
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Speaker 5: a way to do that. They would find them and

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Speaker 5: recruit them to be models, and they and some of

408
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Speaker 5: these girls thought, oh wow, well you mean your friends.

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Speaker 4: With the owner of Victoria's Secret. It's my big break.

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Speaker 5: And then here they are, and they are they have

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Speaker 5: their passports taken from them. They are his sex slaves.

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Speaker 5: They live in his house, and some of them stayed

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Speaker 5: with him for a long time, maybe Stockholm syndromes trauma.

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Speaker 5: I can only imagine what that's like now. I also

415
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Speaker 5: know from Virginia Jupre that that she would be sent

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Speaker 5: out to other countries like Thailand, and she would said,

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Speaker 5: and he said, go find me twin in Thailand, so

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Speaker 5: she would go to Thailand. She went to Thailand, and

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Speaker 5: that's actually when she escaped him. And she met her husband,

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Speaker 5: married him instantly just to get away from him. Then

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Speaker 5: moved to Australia to be as far away from Epstein

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Speaker 5: as she could possibly be after years and years of

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Speaker 5: sexual abuse from very high ranking people in government. You know,

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Speaker 5: she accused Ehud Barak of raping her. She accused George Mitchell,

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Speaker 5: a senator from Maine. She accused Bill Richardson, she accused

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Speaker 5: a number of others, and.

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Speaker 4: You know, this is.

428
00:21:43,584 --> 00:21:45,904
Speaker 5: This This was the kind of set that she was around,

429
00:21:45,984 --> 00:21:49,064
Speaker 5: and so she felt that the safest place for her

430
00:21:49,104 --> 00:21:53,104
Speaker 5: to be would be in Australia. She finally comes forward

431
00:21:53,264 --> 00:21:56,064
Speaker 5: about her story about Prince Andrew in twenty ten, and

432
00:21:56,104 --> 00:22:00,944
Speaker 5: then about a decade later, the Crown actually two decades later,

433
00:22:00,984 --> 00:22:03,104
Speaker 5: to to be frank, they come forward and they pay

434
00:22:03,104 --> 00:22:07,504
Speaker 5: her a historic settlement. But that's all to say. It

435
00:22:07,544 --> 00:22:09,504
Speaker 5: was an international scheme. You can see from the flo

436
00:22:09,984 --> 00:22:13,184
Speaker 5: they're constantly moving around. But then they also had their

437
00:22:13,344 --> 00:22:17,624
Speaker 5: their micro i'd call it micro, but pyramid scheme that

438
00:22:17,664 --> 00:22:20,504
Speaker 5: they ran through this Palm Beach High School where they

439
00:22:20,544 --> 00:22:22,664
Speaker 5: told the girls, if you bring another girl, you get

440
00:22:22,704 --> 00:22:26,024
Speaker 5: three hundred dollars. And I don't think that they I

441
00:22:26,104 --> 00:22:28,384
Speaker 5: think they were actually pretty smart about it, and they

442
00:22:28,504 --> 00:22:31,824
Speaker 5: very rarely brought to many of the high school girls

443
00:22:31,824 --> 00:22:35,464
Speaker 5: over to And by smart, I mean they tried to

444
00:22:35,464 --> 00:22:38,064
Speaker 5: minimize some risk and they used more of the foreign

445
00:22:38,064 --> 00:22:40,464
Speaker 5: girls when they were moving them abroad. Although Virginia, you

446
00:22:40,504 --> 00:22:43,544
Speaker 5: can see the flight logs, was traveling all over the

447
00:22:43,584 --> 00:22:46,304
Speaker 5: world with them. You were saying about foreigners, I think

448
00:22:46,464 --> 00:22:49,224
Speaker 5: born women, and I think that was through the modeling promises,

449
00:22:49,624 --> 00:22:51,824
Speaker 5: because that's the kind of for that was a common

450
00:22:51,864 --> 00:22:56,144
Speaker 5: thing and seemed plausible, and especially for some of these

451
00:22:56,144 --> 00:23:00,664
Speaker 5: women that are coming from Eastern Europe and Russia or some.

452
00:23:00,624 --> 00:23:01,984
Speaker 2: Of theseuser circumstances.

453
00:23:02,064 --> 00:23:29,744
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, why does Glaine, Why does Glene Maxwell.

454
00:23:29,344 --> 00:23:30,144
Speaker 2: Get so involved?

455
00:23:30,224 --> 00:23:31,904
Speaker 3: But little I've looked at it looks like she actually

456
00:23:31,904 --> 00:23:34,384
Speaker 3: did some of this stuff before she even met Epstein,

457
00:23:34,624 --> 00:23:38,264
Speaker 3: like for related to her father and some of his activities,

458
00:23:38,464 --> 00:23:38,984
Speaker 3: and maybe.

459
00:23:38,824 --> 00:23:41,144
Speaker 4: Really I never heard that. Tell me about that.

460
00:23:41,264 --> 00:23:43,424
Speaker 3: Actually, I will send you an article that I've just

461
00:23:43,464 --> 00:23:45,384
Speaker 3: read about that. It doesn't mean it's true, but like.

462
00:23:45,424 --> 00:23:48,264
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were reports of her bringing posh but not

463
00:23:48,304 --> 00:23:51,944
Speaker 2: particularly smart women over to the house, and people were

464
00:23:51,944 --> 00:23:54,424
Speaker 2: commenting on this, and of course her father is old

465
00:23:54,504 --> 00:23:57,464
Speaker 2: really fabulously wealthy and he can make your career or not.

466
00:23:58,184 --> 00:24:00,784
Speaker 4: I did not know this that she was trafficking for

467
00:24:00,864 --> 00:24:01,304
Speaker 4: her father.

468
00:24:01,744 --> 00:24:02,944
Speaker 2: There's an allegations of it.

469
00:24:03,024 --> 00:24:04,504
Speaker 4: Yes, you know, that might make sense.

470
00:24:04,544 --> 00:24:07,864
Speaker 5: I always thought they had a twisted relationship based on

471
00:24:07,904 --> 00:24:11,184
Speaker 5: my reporting and how he would. He was actually pretty

472
00:24:11,184 --> 00:24:13,184
Speaker 5: abusive to her, the way that he speak to her,

473
00:24:13,224 --> 00:24:15,384
Speaker 5: But he also had this weird relationship with her where

474
00:24:15,384 --> 00:24:19,664
Speaker 5: they were meow at each other and I know it's

475
00:24:19,744 --> 00:24:22,584
Speaker 5: very weird, and he praised her for her beauty, but

476
00:24:22,864 --> 00:24:24,544
Speaker 5: he said, you know, she's my favorite.

477
00:24:24,584 --> 00:24:25,664
Speaker 4: She looks the most like me.

478
00:24:26,024 --> 00:24:28,184
Speaker 2: And we've been doing this for twenty minutes and we

479
00:24:28,184 --> 00:24:30,464
Speaker 2: still haven't mentioned Trump yet, right, we're still story.

480
00:24:30,744 --> 00:24:32,304
Speaker 5: Yeah, well I'm about to mention him and you go,

481
00:24:32,384 --> 00:24:34,984
Speaker 5: and then Adam m yeah, you guys know that and

482
00:24:35,024 --> 00:24:37,504
Speaker 5: I are dear friends and worked very closely together.

483
00:24:37,584 --> 00:24:38,944
Speaker 2: She's been talking shit about you.

484
00:24:39,024 --> 00:24:42,504
Speaker 7: Oh really, Yeah.

485
00:24:41,344 --> 00:24:41,824
Speaker 4: I said that.

486
00:24:41,904 --> 00:24:44,384
Speaker 5: I was like, I was brought into this story, this

487
00:24:44,464 --> 00:24:48,664
Speaker 5: wild story through Adam Davidson, and we will live.

488
00:24:49,184 --> 00:24:50,544
Speaker 4: I hope to get down to the bottom of it,

489
00:24:50,584 --> 00:24:51,544
Speaker 4: but I don't know if we ever will.

490
00:24:51,584 --> 00:24:56,024
Speaker 5: But yeah, Robert Maxwell did Glenn much like Trump treats

491
00:24:56,024 --> 00:24:59,464
Speaker 5: Avanka where he sees her as an accessory. You like

492
00:24:59,504 --> 00:25:01,824
Speaker 5: to bring her to parties. He felt like she would

493
00:25:01,824 --> 00:25:04,624
Speaker 5: take the place of the wife. And actually, you know,

494
00:25:04,944 --> 00:25:08,023
Speaker 5: Glenn met Trump through her father. He tried to She

495
00:25:08,064 --> 00:25:12,384
Speaker 5: tried to sell Donald Trump gifts, these gifts and they

496
00:25:12,424 --> 00:25:15,784
Speaker 5: would go to parties on the Hudson and their relationship

497
00:25:15,784 --> 00:25:18,024
Speaker 5: goes back because he was the owner of the Daily

498
00:25:18,104 --> 00:25:21,504
Speaker 5: News and they all go way way back.

499
00:25:21,784 --> 00:25:24,264
Speaker 3: We have our colleague Adam Davidson here with us, so

500
00:25:24,344 --> 00:25:27,424
Speaker 3: as we talk about Epstein stuff, this is really hard

501
00:25:27,424 --> 00:25:30,344
Speaker 3: for us because we talk about conspiracy theories. This thing

502
00:25:30,464 --> 00:25:33,024
Speaker 3: is so crazy and there's so many people. You could

503
00:25:33,064 --> 00:25:35,144
Speaker 3: just list all of the people and the places and

504
00:25:35,184 --> 00:25:37,624
Speaker 3: the names, and it sounds like you're trying to create

505
00:25:37,664 --> 00:25:39,544
Speaker 3: a conspiracy because it's like this person knows that person,

506
00:25:39,544 --> 00:25:40,864
Speaker 3: this person worked here, and this has money and the

507
00:25:40,904 --> 00:25:43,144
Speaker 3: money came here and the girl. But like a lot

508
00:25:43,144 --> 00:25:46,023
Speaker 3: of that's true, so like and a lot of it

509
00:25:46,064 --> 00:25:48,584
Speaker 3: is out there. No, So why is this not actually

510
00:25:48,584 --> 00:25:51,064
Speaker 3: all pulled together so that for people who want to know?

511
00:25:51,264 --> 00:25:54,224
Speaker 7: So, Hi, Tara, Tara and I work together on this

512
00:25:54,304 --> 00:26:00,824
Speaker 7: story for a very intense year or more and I

513
00:26:00,824 --> 00:26:02,424
Speaker 7: think we both went through a lot.

514
00:26:03,144 --> 00:26:04,024
Speaker 2: It's a dark one.

515
00:26:04,704 --> 00:26:07,104
Speaker 7: I first heard about Jeffrey Epstein on the set of

516
00:26:07,144 --> 00:26:09,984
Speaker 7: The Big Short, just to name drop, like I was

517
00:26:10,024 --> 00:26:13,024
Speaker 7: advising Adam McKay, the writer director, and like, in between

518
00:26:13,824 --> 00:26:16,384
Speaker 7: takes he had just somehow learned. I was on set

519
00:26:16,424 --> 00:26:19,824
Speaker 7: as like the journalist expert to talk about finance, and

520
00:26:19,904 --> 00:26:23,704
Speaker 7: I like condescendingly said, no, none of what you're saying

521
00:26:23,824 --> 00:26:27,184
Speaker 7: is possible, because if that were true, everyone would know

522
00:26:27,224 --> 00:26:29,624
Speaker 7: about it, and it would be like all those people

523
00:26:29,624 --> 00:26:34,744
Speaker 7: would be in jail. It can't be sure enough. It

524
00:26:35,904 --> 00:26:40,224
Speaker 7: was the rare case where it completely batshit conspiracy theory

525
00:26:40,224 --> 00:26:44,344
Speaker 7: turned out to be completely true. I mean, this is Tara,

526
00:26:44,584 --> 00:26:47,144
Speaker 7: you and I. This is what is so difficult for

527
00:26:47,304 --> 00:26:50,424
Speaker 7: us emotionally, is like there are things we feel like

528
00:26:50,504 --> 00:26:53,184
Speaker 7: we know that we can't even say because of legal

529
00:26:53,224 --> 00:26:55,624
Speaker 7: reasons or because we were told it by people who

530
00:26:56,064 --> 00:26:58,224
Speaker 7: you know, victims who asked us to keep it secret.

531
00:26:58,784 --> 00:27:03,064
Speaker 7: It is even worse, worse, it is even more people.

532
00:27:03,624 --> 00:27:07,064
Speaker 7: And what's amazing is it really implicates It's not just

533
00:27:07,224 --> 00:27:09,424
Speaker 7: in place, many of the most respected people or most

534
00:27:09,424 --> 00:27:14,744
Speaker 7: powerful people in the world, institutions Harvard. It made me think, like,

535
00:27:14,784 --> 00:27:18,224
Speaker 7: if you're gonna do a conspiracy, you should make it

536
00:27:18,264 --> 00:27:21,304
Speaker 7: as big as possible and touch as many people as possible,

537
00:27:21,344 --> 00:27:25,304
Speaker 7: because it's harder. You know, if it was like fifteen

538
00:27:25,384 --> 00:27:29,624
Speaker 7: bank managers in Joplin, Missouri, like maybe you could bring

539
00:27:29,664 --> 00:27:30,024
Speaker 7: it down.

540
00:27:30,144 --> 00:27:32,224
Speaker 2: Could you take us through a bite sized piece of

541
00:27:32,224 --> 00:27:36,384
Speaker 2: this alex Acosta, right, he gives a sweetheart deal to Epstein,

542
00:27:36,704 --> 00:27:39,584
Speaker 2: you know, maybe getting Trump off the hook and other people,

543
00:27:40,224 --> 00:27:43,464
Speaker 2: and then later maybe he's named Secretary of late You know,

544
00:27:43,504 --> 00:27:45,784
Speaker 2: how does this he ends up on the cannet.

545
00:27:45,904 --> 00:27:47,864
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I have to agree with Adam on

546
00:27:47,904 --> 00:27:50,944
Speaker 5: that it does feel like everybody it's like this secret

547
00:27:50,984 --> 00:27:53,904
Speaker 5: that's just tying them all together. It's the kind of

548
00:27:53,904 --> 00:27:58,704
Speaker 5: consensual secret. And if they let the House of Domino's

549
00:27:58,784 --> 00:28:00,984
Speaker 5: fall or the House of Cards fall, then they all

550
00:28:01,024 --> 00:28:03,144
Speaker 5: go down together, so they have to stick keep it up.

551
00:28:03,584 --> 00:28:06,064
Speaker 5: I don't know if there is a direct line between

552
00:28:06,104 --> 00:28:10,304
Speaker 5: alex Acosta and this deal and becoming this Secretary of Labor,

553
00:28:10,304 --> 00:28:12,344
Speaker 5: but I have to say that, you know, he dealt

554
00:28:12,344 --> 00:28:14,584
Speaker 5: with a lot of very prominent Republicans at the time

555
00:28:14,624 --> 00:28:17,664
Speaker 5: to deal with it. Ken Starr, who has a lot

556
00:28:17,704 --> 00:28:21,464
Speaker 5: of influence in the party. J Lefkowitz now Alan Derschwitz,

557
00:28:21,624 --> 00:28:24,264
Speaker 5: who has a lot of prominence in the Republican Party.

558
00:28:24,824 --> 00:28:27,504
Speaker 5: Bill Barr at the time was I think a deputy

559
00:28:27,544 --> 00:28:31,224
Speaker 5: Attorney General under Bush. This case went all the way

560
00:28:31,304 --> 00:28:34,264
Speaker 5: up to Gonzalez, who was AG at the time Bush.

561
00:28:34,424 --> 00:28:36,384
Speaker 5: So I, you know, to deal with that kind of

562
00:28:36,424 --> 00:28:38,984
Speaker 5: sensitive type of case. He's getting. This type of exposure

563
00:28:39,104 --> 00:28:41,464
Speaker 5: probably puts him on like federalist lists that maybe he

564
00:28:41,624 --> 00:28:43,824
Speaker 5: wasn't at at the time. Maybe it helps him with

565
00:28:43,824 --> 00:28:45,704
Speaker 5: his buddies in Washington and Tyre.

566
00:28:45,864 --> 00:28:49,264
Speaker 7: One thing that I find like, so head Messing is

567
00:28:50,424 --> 00:28:53,304
Speaker 7: like on this show most conspiracies, it's like you just dismissed,

568
00:28:53,304 --> 00:28:56,784
Speaker 7: Like come on, Like it's not like alex Acosta signed

569
00:28:56,824 --> 00:28:57,504
Speaker 7: a secret deal.

570
00:28:57,784 --> 00:28:59,304
Speaker 4: But with this, the things we.

571
00:28:59,304 --> 00:29:04,024
Speaker 7: Know happened are the same kinds of things as alex

572
00:29:04,064 --> 00:29:07,384
Speaker 7: Acosta became labor secretary because he protected bad people. We

573
00:29:07,424 --> 00:29:09,504
Speaker 7: don't know if that's true, right, we don't have evidence

574
00:29:09,624 --> 00:29:11,344
Speaker 7: that that's true, and that might.

575
00:29:11,464 --> 00:29:13,824
Speaker 2: Be know what was in the files, he would know

576
00:29:14,024 --> 00:29:17,584
Speaker 2: like who was imdicated And it's like oh yeah, and

577
00:29:17,664 --> 00:29:20,144
Speaker 2: so later it's like I want to keep him. You know,

578
00:29:20,264 --> 00:29:22,584
Speaker 2: keep him sweet. So I'm not claiming that there was

579
00:29:22,584 --> 00:29:25,184
Speaker 2: a like a written conspiracy. You're being a little bit

580
00:29:25,224 --> 00:29:27,104
Speaker 2: of a conspiracy animate but that's.

581
00:29:26,904 --> 00:29:28,824
Speaker 4: A mill bargain back in a big way.

582
00:29:28,944 --> 00:29:31,144
Speaker 5: Maybe he was like, hey, I know it's going in

583
00:29:31,144 --> 00:29:32,104
Speaker 5: the Epstein files.

584
00:29:32,144 --> 00:29:32,824
Speaker 4: Make me your age.

585
00:29:33,184 --> 00:29:36,184
Speaker 3: So if you have a big conspiracy, it's very easy

586
00:29:36,184 --> 00:29:39,104
Speaker 3: to know hang conspiracies off of it. And so the

587
00:29:39,104 --> 00:29:42,464
Speaker 3: one that seems to be the one that's we're focused

588
00:29:42,504 --> 00:29:45,784
Speaker 3: on now is Trump. Trump tied to it. They were

589
00:29:45,784 --> 00:29:50,264
Speaker 3: best friends. He introduced his wife. From your experience, Adam

590
00:29:50,304 --> 00:29:53,224
Speaker 3: and Tara, do you think Trump is a central player

591
00:29:53,224 --> 00:29:55,424
Speaker 3: in the ugliness of this or he's just another one

592
00:29:55,504 --> 00:29:58,144
Speaker 3: of these big shots that made his way through the process.

593
00:29:58,424 --> 00:29:59,984
Speaker 4: I think it's central to all of it.

594
00:30:00,104 --> 00:30:02,424
Speaker 5: I think it's partially why this story has come back

595
00:30:02,504 --> 00:30:04,864
Speaker 5: in such a way because in someone's like make it

596
00:30:04,904 --> 00:30:09,224
Speaker 5: go away, you're wondering why why, why, why why? And

597
00:30:09,304 --> 00:30:12,784
Speaker 5: the more evidence comes out, it's like, WHOA, these guys

598
00:30:12,784 --> 00:30:16,024
Speaker 5: were as close as we believed they were. They were

599
00:30:16,184 --> 00:30:19,384
Speaker 5: very good friends, they liked The thing that bonded them

600
00:30:19,544 --> 00:30:22,824
Speaker 5: was their love of women. Hmmm, he's on the jet

601
00:30:22,864 --> 00:30:25,304
Speaker 5: A bunch of times. He's in the book of bazillion times,

602
00:30:25,344 --> 00:30:28,104
Speaker 5: he's writing cards about their secret trysts.

603
00:30:28,144 --> 00:30:29,224
Speaker 4: What more is there?

604
00:30:30,344 --> 00:30:32,824
Speaker 5: They have a common front in Pallo's on Poli, who

605
00:30:33,144 --> 00:30:35,904
Speaker 5: allegedly introduced Trump to Milania.

606
00:30:36,104 --> 00:30:38,304
Speaker 7: It's just like there, you and I had a very

607
00:30:38,344 --> 00:30:44,424
Speaker 7: weird and fun afternoon with if you remember Tara, Yeah,

608
00:30:45,544 --> 00:30:47,984
Speaker 7: just an interview. So on the list of things that

609
00:30:48,024 --> 00:30:51,424
Speaker 7: are upsetting about this story, so what one thing is.

610
00:30:53,424 --> 00:30:53,504
Speaker 3: Like?

611
00:30:53,864 --> 00:30:58,904
Speaker 7: I think Epstein stood out as unusually voracious, unusually calculating,

612
00:30:59,024 --> 00:31:01,584
Speaker 7: but I think a lot. I mean, we talked to

613
00:31:01,744 --> 00:31:06,504
Speaker 7: models who said, like that was that whole scene of

614
00:31:06,584 --> 00:31:10,664
Speaker 7: like sixteen year old girls, rich guy. There was a

615
00:31:10,664 --> 00:31:13,984
Speaker 7: bunch of locations in Europe, in the Caribbean, in New

616
00:31:14,064 --> 00:31:18,104
Speaker 7: York and Palm Beach and older rich men having sex

617
00:31:18,144 --> 00:31:21,504
Speaker 7: with teenage girls. Was I don't know how to say

618
00:31:21,544 --> 00:31:23,864
Speaker 7: it other than it was widely accepted as not a

619
00:31:23,864 --> 00:31:27,704
Speaker 7: weird thing. I mean, we heard so many stories. I

620
00:31:27,704 --> 00:31:33,824
Speaker 7: think you see it getting more unusual, and certainly by

621
00:31:33,824 --> 00:31:36,464
Speaker 7: the early two thousands, there's no question. I mean, he

622
00:31:36,584 --> 00:31:40,064
Speaker 7: himself says it. Trump was central to that party scene,

623
00:31:40,264 --> 00:31:42,224
Speaker 7: certainly in the New York part of it and in

624
00:31:42,344 --> 00:31:44,864
Speaker 7: the Florida part of it. I think that if you

625
00:31:44,944 --> 00:31:47,824
Speaker 7: were around those parties in the early nineties the mid

626
00:31:47,984 --> 00:31:50,504
Speaker 7: nineties and someone said, hey, who's like central to this,

627
00:31:50,664 --> 00:31:52,864
Speaker 7: I do think you would have said Donald Trump, like

628
00:31:53,904 --> 00:31:56,664
Speaker 7: he was a key figure. It's not just he's the

629
00:31:56,704 --> 00:32:00,024
Speaker 7: president now, so we're picking him out. Although the way

630
00:32:00,064 --> 00:32:02,424
Speaker 7: I look at it for all the people who spent

631
00:32:02,504 --> 00:32:05,624
Speaker 7: time with Epstein more than just a really casual moment

632
00:32:05,784 --> 00:32:08,144
Speaker 7: is if they didn't have sex with young girls, it

633
00:32:08,184 --> 00:32:10,464
Speaker 7: wasn't because they it was available to them and they

634
00:32:10,544 --> 00:32:12,824
Speaker 7: knew it was available to them. So the best you

635
00:32:12,864 --> 00:32:15,984
Speaker 7: can say for anybody who spent serious time with him

636
00:32:16,744 --> 00:32:20,104
Speaker 7: is they were in a setting where other men were

637
00:32:20,104 --> 00:32:22,624
Speaker 7: clearly having sex with young girls and they didn't do

638
00:32:22,624 --> 00:32:23,304
Speaker 7: anything about it.

639
00:32:23,744 --> 00:32:26,184
Speaker 5: But also Jeffrey kind of pushed them on. Did he

640
00:32:26,224 --> 00:32:28,344
Speaker 5: pushed the girls on the Yeah, he wanted you to

641
00:32:28,424 --> 00:32:31,984
Speaker 5: do it because he knew that they may be underage

642
00:32:32,064 --> 00:32:34,424
Speaker 5: or it might be illegal. And that was the bachanall

643
00:32:34,824 --> 00:32:37,424
Speaker 5: kind of environment that you got. And I think that

644
00:32:37,504 --> 00:32:39,704
Speaker 5: in some ways he groomed the elites around him, and

645
00:32:39,744 --> 00:32:42,064
Speaker 5: so did Glenn Maxwell why she was so central to

646
00:32:42,064 --> 00:32:44,544
Speaker 5: all of this into thinking like this is totally normal

647
00:32:44,584 --> 00:32:46,584
Speaker 5: and nothing's going to happen. It's a great time. Just

648
00:32:46,624 --> 00:32:48,784
Speaker 5: come by Jeffrey Epstein's We're a good time. It's like

649
00:32:48,824 --> 00:32:50,264
Speaker 5: the frat house. It's fun, you know.

650
00:32:50,704 --> 00:32:52,864
Speaker 3: Then there's a twist that he would try to use this,

651
00:32:53,744 --> 00:32:55,544
Speaker 3: and that's you know, because obviously, if you're doing this,

652
00:32:55,624 --> 00:32:58,824
Speaker 3: you know you're either just a sexual psychopath or you're

653
00:32:58,824 --> 00:33:01,264
Speaker 3: trying to do it for a reason. And if I recalled,

654
00:33:01,264 --> 00:33:03,424
Speaker 3: this wasn't Bill Gates along one time? And then he

655
00:33:03,504 --> 00:33:05,944
Speaker 3: tried and Bill Gates was cheating on his wife, and

656
00:33:06,024 --> 00:33:08,944
Speaker 3: Epstein then tried to use that is extortion against Ogates.

657
00:33:08,944 --> 00:33:11,064
Speaker 3: Then Bill Gates came out publicly and then got divorced.

658
00:33:11,144 --> 00:33:14,064
Speaker 7: All well, his wife says that it was a relationship

659
00:33:14,144 --> 00:33:16,264
Speaker 7: and it was what he was doing with Epstein that

660
00:33:16,344 --> 00:33:19,384
Speaker 7: led to the divorce. I had two things I wanted

661
00:33:19,424 --> 00:33:22,064
Speaker 7: to ask, So one is just have you talked about intelligence?

662
00:33:22,104 --> 00:33:24,824
Speaker 7: Because I feel like when I was working with Tara,

663
00:33:25,184 --> 00:33:28,144
Speaker 7: I didn't know any spooks and now I know to

664
00:33:28,704 --> 00:33:33,104
Speaker 7: CIA former case officers, and I feel like one thing

665
00:33:33,184 --> 00:33:36,464
Speaker 7: you have convinced me of is the idea that Jeffrey

666
00:33:36,504 --> 00:33:41,464
Speaker 7: Epstein is an intelligence, that he is himself an officer

667
00:33:41,584 --> 00:33:44,784
Speaker 7: of either the Massade or the CIA is very unlikely.

668
00:33:44,904 --> 00:33:47,344
Speaker 7: It's unlikely he's a run asset where everything he did

669
00:33:47,464 --> 00:33:50,144
Speaker 7: was driven, right, Can you talk about that, because that

670
00:33:50,504 --> 00:33:52,664
Speaker 7: is a very persistent rumor. I mean, he might be

671
00:33:52,704 --> 00:33:54,904
Speaker 7: a guy who talks to intelligence people, right, I mean

672
00:33:54,904 --> 00:33:57,024
Speaker 7: there's lots of those people. I mean I might be

673
00:33:57,064 --> 00:33:57,784
Speaker 7: one of those people.

674
00:33:57,944 --> 00:34:00,664
Speaker 2: Right. If he's running in these circles, it wouldn't be

675
00:34:01,504 --> 00:34:06,424
Speaker 2: unusual for him to, like, you know, be someone who

676
00:34:06,664 --> 00:34:10,024
Speaker 2: talks to intelligence from Kiya, passes on tips or things

677
00:34:10,024 --> 00:34:13,464
Speaker 2: like that. But when people think of like an asset,

678
00:34:13,504 --> 00:34:17,104
Speaker 2: they think of like control, Like we control him, he

679
00:34:17,184 --> 00:34:20,823
Speaker 2: does what we say. And someone who's you know, if

680
00:34:20,824 --> 00:34:24,663
Speaker 2: you're a billionaire and you're running in those circles, you

681
00:34:24,703 --> 00:34:28,143
Speaker 2: know there's there's not going to be control over you.

682
00:34:28,183 --> 00:34:30,384
Speaker 2: I don't see what the motivation would be, what the

683
00:34:30,504 --> 00:34:33,064
Speaker 2: what the hold would be. This is a sociopath who

684
00:34:33,143 --> 00:34:33,824
Speaker 2: was out for himself.

685
00:34:33,944 --> 00:34:36,943
Speaker 3: So Jerry's right, in our parlance, there's different levels of

686
00:34:37,223 --> 00:34:39,303
Speaker 3: people who are and you could say, are in touch

687
00:34:39,344 --> 00:34:41,944
Speaker 3: with an intelligent sagancy. So if someone's important and his

688
00:34:41,984 --> 00:34:44,944
Speaker 3: friends with Clinton and Bush and Trump and talks to

689
00:34:44,984 --> 00:34:47,823
Speaker 3: prime ministers and goes to Israel and Russia and he

690
00:34:47,864 --> 00:34:49,944
Speaker 3: talks to a senior politician and one of the senior

691
00:34:49,944 --> 00:34:52,823
Speaker 3: politicians says, you know, you should talk to CIA, or

692
00:34:52,824 --> 00:34:54,663
Speaker 3: the CIA tells the CIA, guys, you talked to him,

693
00:34:54,663 --> 00:34:57,464
Speaker 3: He's got all this stuff. Yeah, there will be someone

694
00:34:57,504 --> 00:35:01,863
Speaker 3: will meet him, probably more likely an analyst than you know,

695
00:35:01,944 --> 00:35:04,544
Speaker 3: someone in clandestine service. Listen to what he has, just

696
00:35:04,944 --> 00:35:09,104
Speaker 3: you know, a contact. It's completely there's no control. There's

697
00:35:09,104 --> 00:35:12,183
Speaker 3: no effort to try to suborn that person or ask

698
00:35:12,223 --> 00:35:14,703
Speaker 3: them to sign secrecy agreements or anything like that. That's

699
00:35:14,783 --> 00:35:16,504
Speaker 3: very separate from the kind of people Jerry and I

700
00:35:16,544 --> 00:35:19,183
Speaker 3: try to meet as we're looking for access to secrets.

701
00:35:19,663 --> 00:35:22,584
Speaker 3: We're trying to find people who have access to government

702
00:35:22,623 --> 00:35:26,184
Speaker 3: can't get any other way. And then, like Jerry says, control,

703
00:35:26,263 --> 00:35:29,584
Speaker 3: that's our term for they understand that they're actually operating

704
00:35:29,623 --> 00:35:32,584
Speaker 3: secretly working for US in the CIA, and they're keeping

705
00:35:32,584 --> 00:35:34,623
Speaker 3: that secret from their government or other and they have

706
00:35:34,703 --> 00:35:36,944
Speaker 3: to to do that. They have to keep themselves safe,

707
00:35:36,944 --> 00:35:39,223
Speaker 3: and they have to follow our rules. And so that's

708
00:35:39,223 --> 00:35:42,944
Speaker 3: a controlled asset. This person doesn't fit that in the slightest.

709
00:35:43,623 --> 00:35:46,783
Speaker 3: It's certainly possible that Epstein, who's in all these circles,

710
00:35:47,064 --> 00:35:50,703
Speaker 3: talk to somebody in the CIA, But that doesn't mean

711
00:35:50,743 --> 00:35:52,223
Speaker 3: that the CIA would then do to go over there

712
00:35:52,263 --> 00:35:53,783
Speaker 3: and talk to that person and tell me what he said.

713
00:35:53,824 --> 00:35:56,944
Speaker 3: We're not doing all. So Russia has a wider spectrum

714
00:35:57,263 --> 00:36:00,343
Speaker 3: of what they consider use of people. So if there's

715
00:36:00,384 --> 00:36:04,064
Speaker 3: people who are useful to them just because they say

716
00:36:04,104 --> 00:36:06,824
Speaker 3: things that are in benefit to Russia, they will maintain

717
00:36:07,263 --> 00:36:10,383
Speaker 3: contact with them and try to subtly give information into

718
00:36:10,424 --> 00:36:12,863
Speaker 3: them so that they'll use it. You've heard people talk

719
00:36:12,864 --> 00:36:15,823
Speaker 3: about that term useful idiots and all, and so their

720
00:36:15,904 --> 00:36:16,863
Speaker 3: view is different from ours.

721
00:36:17,223 --> 00:36:17,944
Speaker 2: So the way Jerry and.

722
00:36:17,984 --> 00:36:20,623
Speaker 3: I move up through the system and get promoted is

723
00:36:20,944 --> 00:36:26,343
Speaker 3: by recruiting controlled sources who provide us unique information. If

724
00:36:26,623 --> 00:36:28,663
Speaker 3: I meet someone and think interesting, but it's just a

725
00:36:29,104 --> 00:36:31,304
Speaker 3: you know, the person walked in it, came into the CIA,

726
00:36:32,464 --> 00:36:34,743
Speaker 3: got a badge to come in as a visitor, tell

727
00:36:34,824 --> 00:36:37,383
Speaker 3: us something, and left as an American, Like that doesn't

728
00:36:37,384 --> 00:36:41,143
Speaker 3: of no value to me professionally. Like there's a piece

729
00:36:41,183 --> 00:36:43,863
Speaker 3: of information that gets into our system, great, but that

730
00:36:43,864 --> 00:36:45,864
Speaker 3: doesn't mean we say that we give that any extra

731
00:36:45,944 --> 00:36:46,943
Speaker 3: weight over anything else.

732
00:36:46,944 --> 00:36:50,824
Speaker 2: That's in there, the dog whistle. There is that CIA

733
00:36:51,143 --> 00:36:54,064
Speaker 2: or mostly most side of the conspiracy theories. I heard

734
00:36:54,104 --> 00:36:58,064
Speaker 2: it's the you know, it's the great Jewish conspiracy. That exactly, Yeah,

735
00:36:58,143 --> 00:37:02,024
Speaker 2: it's the Mosad and the Jews are running this international

736
00:37:02,024 --> 00:37:04,584
Speaker 2: sex ring. I mean, that's what they're implying, as opposed

737
00:37:04,623 --> 00:37:08,224
Speaker 2: to he talked to a Mosaide officer and gave tips

738
00:37:08,304 --> 00:37:10,744
Speaker 2: or did them a favor. I think there's a huge

739
00:37:10,783 --> 00:37:14,743
Speaker 2: difference between that and what's being implied when they say

740
00:37:14,783 --> 00:37:17,143
Speaker 2: he's you know, he works for most as if that

741
00:37:17,304 --> 00:37:19,863
Speaker 2: like explains it. So I just want to go back

742
00:37:19,864 --> 00:37:23,143
Speaker 2: to Alex to cost again because I wasn't quite satisfied

743
00:37:23,143 --> 00:37:26,783
Speaker 2: with yeah, with you, Adam, So maybe I got the

744
00:37:26,783 --> 00:37:29,863
Speaker 2: facts wrong. But when I look at this, Epstein was

745
00:37:30,584 --> 00:37:34,263
Speaker 2: up on dozens of charges with with like dozens of

746
00:37:34,344 --> 00:37:38,263
Speaker 2: high level people, likely including Donald Trump as they're looking

747
00:37:38,304 --> 00:37:40,224
Speaker 2: into this, right who they were good friends at the time,

748
00:37:40,544 --> 00:37:43,544
Speaker 2: and what the charges they were looking at was basically

749
00:37:43,663 --> 00:37:46,623
Speaker 2: raping a fourteen year old girl, right, This is the

750
00:37:46,703 --> 00:37:49,584
Speaker 2: charges he was looking at. And for reasons that have

751
00:37:49,824 --> 00:37:53,623
Speaker 2: never been explained that I don't understand, alex Acosta cut

752
00:37:53,703 --> 00:37:58,144
Speaker 2: him a deal where it was basically soliciting a prostitute.

753
00:37:58,623 --> 00:38:00,544
Speaker 2: And then he got to like still able to fly

754
00:38:00,623 --> 00:38:02,944
Speaker 2: around on his jet, He could live at home, he

755
00:38:02,984 --> 00:38:04,783
Speaker 2: only had to show up to jail on weekends. He

756
00:38:04,824 --> 00:38:08,104
Speaker 2: didn't even do that. But what he did have is

757
00:38:08,183 --> 00:38:13,024
Speaker 2: he had reams of people who were involved in his network. Right,

758
00:38:13,024 --> 00:38:16,984
Speaker 2: It wasn't just Jeffrey Epstein, It was Epstein and lots

759
00:38:16,984 --> 00:38:20,824
Speaker 2: of other people who were around him, influential people. Yeah,

760
00:38:20,904 --> 00:38:26,183
Speaker 2: three administrations later, alex Acosta still knows what the charges are.

761
00:38:26,304 --> 00:38:28,343
Speaker 2: He knows what's in the files. He's read them, he

762
00:38:28,384 --> 00:38:32,183
Speaker 2: collected them, right, And so it seems to me not

763
00:38:32,263 --> 00:38:35,064
Speaker 2: that he would like write Donald Trump and say I'm

764
00:38:35,064 --> 00:38:37,544
Speaker 2: going to talk unless you give you a cabinet. But

765
00:38:37,584 --> 00:38:39,544
Speaker 2: he doesn't even need to say that, right, and not

766
00:38:39,663 --> 00:38:42,464
Speaker 2: just Donald Trump, because right now he's a big wigan

767
00:38:42,663 --> 00:38:45,584
Speaker 2: like Newsmax. Right, he's been given the sinecure where he

768
00:38:45,663 --> 00:38:48,623
Speaker 2: basically does nothing and they pay him a lot of money.

769
00:38:48,864 --> 00:38:51,704
Speaker 7: You know, there's there's normal like just how America works

770
00:38:51,824 --> 00:38:54,584
Speaker 7: kind of scuzziness. And I do think the two thousand

771
00:38:54,584 --> 00:38:56,663
Speaker 7: and six to two thousand and eight like miscarriage of

772
00:38:56,824 --> 00:39:00,183
Speaker 7: justice where this guy the cops felt like they knew

773
00:39:00,223 --> 00:39:04,783
Speaker 7: that he had dozens hundreds of you know what I

774
00:39:04,824 --> 00:39:05,664
Speaker 7: would call rapes.

775
00:39:05,824 --> 00:39:07,823
Speaker 2: I mean I think they are rapes. Ye, yeah, yeah.

776
00:39:07,984 --> 00:39:12,464
Speaker 7: And this was ongoing. There was crossing state lines, there

777
00:39:12,464 --> 00:39:14,584
Speaker 7: was airplanes, like, there was all the things that either

778
00:39:14,584 --> 00:39:17,223
Speaker 7: a local or federal prosecution should work. What he ended

779
00:39:17,304 --> 00:39:20,584
Speaker 7: up getting convicted of is one count of prostitution, which

780
00:39:20,663 --> 00:39:23,584
Speaker 7: several people have told me, can you even call like

781
00:39:23,623 --> 00:39:25,464
Speaker 7: a fourteen year old prostitute?

782
00:39:25,464 --> 00:39:26,024
Speaker 2: Like is that?

783
00:39:26,544 --> 00:39:27,303
Speaker 7: What does that mean?

784
00:39:27,504 --> 00:39:28,944
Speaker 2: Like that is child rape? Whatever?

785
00:39:29,104 --> 00:39:30,303
Speaker 7: Like whether you pay for it or not?

786
00:39:30,464 --> 00:39:31,064
Speaker 2: And he didn't.

787
00:39:31,623 --> 00:39:34,183
Speaker 7: But not only did he get this really short sentence,

788
00:39:34,703 --> 00:39:37,143
Speaker 7: he was allowed to leave during the day on a

789
00:39:37,183 --> 00:39:40,504
Speaker 7: work study thing, and he created this office for himself.

790
00:39:40,904 --> 00:39:43,143
Speaker 7: And we have pretty good reason to think he was

791
00:39:43,183 --> 00:39:47,384
Speaker 7: having sex with underage girls while he was serving his sentence.

792
00:39:48,223 --> 00:39:50,944
Speaker 2: But he kept his mouth shut. He didn't talk, He

793
00:39:51,024 --> 00:39:54,024
Speaker 2: didn't roll on any of the people in his network,

794
00:39:54,263 --> 00:39:57,784
Speaker 2: who were all big donors, who were senior people, arguably

795
00:39:57,864 --> 00:40:02,544
Speaker 2: Donald Trump right, arguably other people, because it wasn't we're

796
00:40:02,584 --> 00:40:04,903
Speaker 2: describing this as though that back then, as though it

797
00:40:05,024 --> 00:40:06,384
Speaker 2: was just Jeffrey Epstein.

798
00:40:06,663 --> 00:40:11,383
Speaker 7: No, No, it was it was Yes.

799
00:40:40,464 --> 00:40:42,663
Speaker 2: It seems to me Jeffreys at that time he had

800
00:40:42,663 --> 00:40:45,184
Speaker 2: two choices. He could roll on all the other guys

801
00:40:45,223 --> 00:40:47,183
Speaker 2: and try to get a lighter sentence, or he could

802
00:40:47,183 --> 00:40:49,544
Speaker 2: go to the other guys and say put pressure on

803
00:40:49,584 --> 00:40:50,464
Speaker 2: the prosecutor.

804
00:40:50,904 --> 00:40:53,984
Speaker 7: What I'm trying to get at is was this normal

805
00:40:54,424 --> 00:40:57,783
Speaker 7: crappy behavior? Like was this just the normal, like you know,

806
00:40:57,864 --> 00:41:01,143
Speaker 7: sadly just unsurprising fact that really rich people live in

807
00:41:01,183 --> 00:41:04,584
Speaker 7: a different legal system than poor people, and or was

808
00:41:04,623 --> 00:41:07,823
Speaker 7: this something it is explained by just a rich guy

809
00:41:07,904 --> 00:41:09,904
Speaker 7: hiring big lawyers and throwing their way to around. I

810
00:41:09,904 --> 00:41:12,663
Speaker 7: do think that explains a lot of it.

811
00:41:12,424 --> 00:41:15,344
Speaker 3: But the situation is different now about legal stuff. But

812
00:41:15,464 --> 00:41:18,903
Speaker 3: is this something that could be reopened? Because is this

813
00:41:18,944 --> 00:41:20,183
Speaker 3: something that could be dug into?

814
00:41:20,223 --> 00:41:21,984
Speaker 7: I think people, but I don't know if the legal

815
00:41:22,024 --> 00:41:24,584
Speaker 7: system has a method of I mean, I guess I'm

816
00:41:24,584 --> 00:41:28,503
Speaker 7: genuinely asking, does it of like if someone's dead there's

817
00:41:28,544 --> 00:41:32,223
Speaker 7: no active case like what I mean, Congress could theoretically

818
00:41:32,623 --> 00:41:34,744
Speaker 7: and you know, like on the list of like maddening

819
00:41:34,743 --> 00:41:39,104
Speaker 7: things about the alex Acosta deal is Glaine Maxwell and

820
00:41:39,104 --> 00:41:42,783
Speaker 7: then two other major co conspirators were given this Like

821
00:41:42,904 --> 00:41:46,384
Speaker 7: we promised never to prosecute you agreement, and that's actually

822
00:41:46,384 --> 00:41:48,263
Speaker 7: what one of the ways Gleine's trying to get the

823
00:41:48,263 --> 00:41:51,303
Speaker 7: Supreme Court to throw out her conviction. That really, I

824
00:41:51,344 --> 00:41:54,263
Speaker 7: mean legal scholars tole is that's weird, Like nobody like

825
00:41:54,304 --> 00:41:58,584
Speaker 7: they didn't give any information. This wasn't immunity in exchange

826
00:41:58,623 --> 00:42:02,384
Speaker 7: for you know, normally you go to the bottom people

827
00:42:02,424 --> 00:42:04,624
Speaker 7: to get the top people. You don't give you don't

828
00:42:05,143 --> 00:42:09,504
Speaker 7: just give the top people and their cronies blanket immunity.

829
00:42:10,384 --> 00:42:11,544
Speaker 2: So that that is.

830
00:42:11,663 --> 00:42:12,544
Speaker 4: Very, very weird.

831
00:42:12,824 --> 00:42:15,703
Speaker 7: I would say, looking into alex Icosa, this wasn't a

832
00:42:15,743 --> 00:42:17,863
Speaker 7: man with a lot of backbone. He wasn't like a

833
00:42:17,944 --> 00:42:21,504
Speaker 7: highly experienced at turn. You know, if you remember this

834
00:42:21,584 --> 00:42:24,544
Speaker 7: is after all those it almost seems sweet at this point.

835
00:42:24,584 --> 00:42:28,663
Speaker 7: But when Bush fired or Albert Gonzalez fired all those

836
00:42:28,783 --> 00:42:32,704
Speaker 7: prosecutors for not being sufficiently loyal to George W. Bush

837
00:42:32,743 --> 00:42:35,544
Speaker 7: and brought in a bunch of more mediocre, you know,

838
00:42:35,663 --> 00:42:38,743
Speaker 7: sycophantic lawyers, and alex Acosta was one of them.

839
00:42:39,344 --> 00:42:40,744
Speaker 2: So we never do that again.

840
00:42:40,904 --> 00:42:43,303
Speaker 7: We'll never do that. Obviously, we learned our lessons. But

841
00:42:43,344 --> 00:42:46,104
Speaker 7: part of what's maddening is what we do know, like

842
00:42:46,464 --> 00:42:49,024
Speaker 7: I'm still nervous to say all the names that I

843
00:42:49,104 --> 00:42:52,624
Speaker 7: feel fairly confident we're complicit, but you know the names,

844
00:42:52,663 --> 00:42:54,343
Speaker 7: like you know what the names are. A lot of

845
00:42:54,344 --> 00:42:59,064
Speaker 7: them start with B and the name Bill and and

846
00:42:59,464 --> 00:43:01,863
Speaker 7: like we can go to the edge cases or the like.

847
00:43:02,504 --> 00:43:05,744
Speaker 7: Cases we don't know for sure, and that's worth doing,

848
00:43:06,464 --> 00:43:09,663
Speaker 7: but there's lots of cases we basically know and and

849
00:43:09,783 --> 00:43:12,223
Speaker 7: those people are not facing anything.

850
00:43:12,703 --> 00:43:14,944
Speaker 3: But it's right because we worked in a secret verization

851
00:43:15,024 --> 00:43:18,784
Speaker 3: and our job was to protect sources and secrets forever.

852
00:43:18,904 --> 00:43:20,584
Speaker 3: Like so to Jerry and I, we could still be

853
00:43:20,743 --> 00:43:24,183
Speaker 3: prosecuted if on this podcast we say something that's class.

854
00:43:24,183 --> 00:43:24,744
Speaker 7: Give me something.

855
00:43:24,824 --> 00:43:27,064
Speaker 2: If we were to out you as our asset, Adam,

856
00:43:27,183 --> 00:43:29,463
Speaker 2: you know you could see no, no, yeah, we don't.

857
00:43:29,544 --> 00:43:32,863
Speaker 3: But the President, it says, can say those things now

858
00:43:32,864 --> 00:43:35,863
Speaker 3: are are unclassified and did that with all the Kennedys, right,

859
00:43:35,944 --> 00:43:38,584
Speaker 3: So there's there was real secrets that are still being held.

860
00:43:38,703 --> 00:43:39,143
Speaker 2: But the J F.

861
00:43:39,223 --> 00:43:42,104
Speaker 3: Kennedy assassination not tied to who killed them and stuff.

862
00:43:42,143 --> 00:43:44,984
Speaker 3: But President said, nope, that's all free game. Anybody can

863
00:43:45,024 --> 00:43:47,264
Speaker 3: have it now, can it? Can a president or anybody

864
00:43:47,304 --> 00:43:50,104
Speaker 3: in the legal system say now, that's all free to

865
00:43:50,143 --> 00:43:51,303
Speaker 3: be seen, because.

866
00:43:50,984 --> 00:43:55,064
Speaker 7: Well, I think a president can declassify anything, right, but.

867
00:43:55,064 --> 00:43:57,663
Speaker 2: This isn't classified information for those parts getting held by

868
00:43:57,663 --> 00:44:00,944
Speaker 2: the justice the Justice Department. I mean, you could redact

869
00:44:00,944 --> 00:44:03,663
Speaker 2: the victims' names and release it all, right, I think. So, Well,

870
00:44:03,663 --> 00:44:06,064
Speaker 2: there would be a lot of suing. So let's say,

871
00:44:06,263 --> 00:44:10,264
Speaker 2: you know, mister X meets Epstein once, or somebody says

872
00:44:10,263 --> 00:44:13,223
Speaker 2: to a prosecutor early in the case, oh so and

873
00:44:13,263 --> 00:44:15,343
Speaker 2: so was it Epstein's you know, John Sifer was at

874
00:44:15,344 --> 00:44:18,703
Speaker 2: Epstein's party. Well, you know, twenty years later that comes out,

875
00:44:18,743 --> 00:44:21,104
Speaker 2: that's in the Epstein file, So that somebody said you

876
00:44:21,143 --> 00:44:23,863
Speaker 2: were at a party, you know, as part of the investigation.

877
00:44:24,104 --> 00:44:25,703
Speaker 2: You know, you don't want your name even if you

878
00:44:25,743 --> 00:44:27,863
Speaker 2: didn't do anything wrong. And then and then there's what's

879
00:44:28,183 --> 00:44:31,104
Speaker 2: right and wrong is right and wrong in legal and illegal.

880
00:44:31,143 --> 00:44:34,143
Speaker 2: So if someone, let's just pretend a good what of

881
00:44:34,183 --> 00:44:38,183
Speaker 2: Epstein's best friends, What if there's photographs of him in

882
00:44:38,223 --> 00:44:41,343
Speaker 2: a three way with Jeffrey Epstein with a nineteen year

883
00:44:41,344 --> 00:44:45,544
Speaker 2: old girl. That's not illegal, but that's like pretty fucking disgusting.

884
00:44:45,663 --> 00:44:48,504
Speaker 2: So so you know, the Justice Department can't prosecute you

885
00:44:48,584 --> 00:44:52,184
Speaker 2: for that. It's just that gets into politics and araunity. Right,

886
00:44:52,223 --> 00:44:53,743
Speaker 2: do you release it or don't you? Yeah?

887
00:44:53,743 --> 00:44:56,223
Speaker 7: I mean I would like you know, I'm a journalist.

888
00:44:56,223 --> 00:44:58,943
Speaker 7: I would like it all released. I think we as

889
00:44:58,944 --> 00:45:03,343
Speaker 7: a nation need This case really broke me in a

890
00:45:03,344 --> 00:45:07,863
Speaker 7: lot of ways as as a journalist like it. I

891
00:45:07,864 --> 00:45:10,184
Speaker 7: think I had a really naive belief that the truth

892
00:45:10,223 --> 00:45:15,144
Speaker 7: gets out eventually, that powerful people can try and prevent

893
00:45:15,223 --> 00:45:16,944
Speaker 7: the truth from coming out, but once it comes.

894
00:45:16,824 --> 00:45:18,384
Speaker 2: Out, they're screwed.

895
00:45:19,584 --> 00:45:21,744
Speaker 7: And I think we now live in a world where,

896
00:45:21,743 --> 00:45:24,743
Speaker 7: like God, it's just kind of known, right, like we

897
00:45:25,064 --> 00:45:27,303
Speaker 7: basically if you want to pay attention, I mean, it's

898
00:45:27,703 --> 00:45:31,783
Speaker 7: enough is out there and it doesn't have much of

899
00:45:31,824 --> 00:45:35,623
Speaker 7: an impact, and everyone seems like, you know, I see

900
00:45:35,663 --> 00:45:39,384
Speaker 7: people on like Fari Zakaria or whatever, who, in my

901
00:45:39,544 --> 00:45:41,783
Speaker 7: view shouldn't be part of at a minimum, shouldn't be

902
00:45:41,783 --> 00:45:45,584
Speaker 7: part of polite society, Like we shouldn't be engaging them.

903
00:45:45,424 --> 00:45:46,183
Speaker 2: Or you know.

904
00:45:46,464 --> 00:45:49,024
Speaker 7: I sort of thought like courts should have a presumption

905
00:45:49,064 --> 00:45:51,223
Speaker 7: of innocence, but I don't know that society needs a

906
00:45:51,223 --> 00:45:53,744
Speaker 7: presumption of innocence, Like in my view, if you spent

907
00:45:54,263 --> 00:45:57,263
Speaker 7: like there are people big names who we have on

908
00:45:57,304 --> 00:45:59,384
Speaker 7: the flight records they were on a plane with jevery

909
00:45:59,384 --> 00:46:03,223
Speaker 7: Epstein and underage women. So if you went to a

910
00:46:03,223 --> 00:46:06,743
Speaker 7: friend's house or rode on a friend's plane and they

911
00:46:06,743 --> 00:46:08,944
Speaker 7: were hanging out with a fifteen year old and it

912
00:46:08,944 --> 00:46:12,024
Speaker 7: wasn't their daughter, and there wasn't their niece, and let's

913
00:46:12,064 --> 00:46:15,904
Speaker 7: say that's all that happened, nothing else happened, that's still

914
00:46:16,104 --> 00:46:18,024
Speaker 7: really gross.

915
00:46:18,223 --> 00:46:19,303
Speaker 2: Like if you've.

916
00:46:19,384 --> 00:46:22,544
Speaker 7: Been say a president or a head of a university

917
00:46:22,743 --> 00:46:26,464
Speaker 7: or a Nobel Prize winning scientist, Like that's not cool

918
00:46:26,743 --> 00:46:28,984
Speaker 7: and that's not like some theory that we know that.

919
00:46:29,263 --> 00:46:32,223
Speaker 7: So I don't know it's I find the death of Shane.

920
00:46:32,703 --> 00:46:36,023
Speaker 2: But let me ask you another mystery that I flee

921
00:46:36,064 --> 00:46:38,783
Speaker 2: will solve and will it make a difference. So Todd

922
00:46:38,824 --> 00:46:44,104
Speaker 2: Blanche was Trump's personal lawyer poof you know, a little dustonomy,

923
00:46:44,104 --> 00:46:47,464
Speaker 2: and he's now number two with DOJ, number two with DOJ,

924
00:46:47,783 --> 00:46:50,463
Speaker 2: Like I really, I imagine a really friggin busy guy

925
00:46:50,944 --> 00:46:53,183
Speaker 2: has nothing better to do but get at an airplane

926
00:46:53,223 --> 00:46:56,223
Speaker 2: and see Glene Maxwell for two days, right, and to

927
00:46:56,263 --> 00:46:59,903
Speaker 2: sit with her and her lawyer who he's personal friends with,

928
00:47:00,544 --> 00:47:03,424
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden she goes to Club Fed.

929
00:47:04,104 --> 00:47:07,024
Speaker 2: She goes on to which is which is my understanding

930
00:47:07,064 --> 00:47:10,744
Speaker 2: from reading the media, is not legal. Somebody had to

931
00:47:10,824 --> 00:47:15,064
Speaker 2: sign a waiver or exemption, somebody signed something. There had

932
00:47:15,104 --> 00:47:17,744
Speaker 2: to be paperwork to get her to put her into

933
00:47:17,783 --> 00:47:21,863
Speaker 2: this into this camp. I'd like to know who that was, Yeah,

934
00:47:21,904 --> 00:47:24,504
Speaker 2: and why they Why is it you know that she

935
00:47:24,504 --> 00:47:27,544
Speaker 2: she gets it. You know, somebody's protecting a child sex trafficker.

936
00:47:28,024 --> 00:47:30,824
Speaker 2: Gallanne Maxwell. She's been put into a nice the nicest

937
00:47:30,824 --> 00:47:31,784
Speaker 2: prison possible.

938
00:47:31,864 --> 00:47:34,744
Speaker 4: But you know what it's like that we've who.

939
00:47:34,663 --> 00:47:37,224
Speaker 2: Signed that thing? The prisons is keep put them out.

940
00:47:37,104 --> 00:47:40,104
Speaker 7: Shut And that's what's fascinating that we like there. I

941
00:47:40,183 --> 00:47:42,864
Speaker 7: used to I remember an economist talking about, like in

942
00:47:43,223 --> 00:47:48,464
Speaker 7: the West generally corruption as an aberration and people hide it.

943
00:47:49,024 --> 00:47:51,743
Speaker 7: In most former Soviet Union nations in the Middle East,

944
00:47:51,824 --> 00:47:56,384
Speaker 7: et cetera, corruption is it's not even hidden like you

945
00:47:56,384 --> 00:47:58,863
Speaker 7: you know, like an Azerbaiseean. You can you know, you

946
00:47:58,904 --> 00:48:01,304
Speaker 7: can go to the houses of the ministers who've only

947
00:48:01,344 --> 00:48:03,743
Speaker 7: ever worked in government office and they have these massive

948
00:48:03,824 --> 00:48:06,783
Speaker 7: mansions and and it's it almost like can it be

949
00:48:06,824 --> 00:48:09,303
Speaker 7: called corruption? Because corruption seems to imply there's a non

950
00:48:09,864 --> 00:48:13,024
Speaker 7: system that is then you know, corrupted. But if that

951
00:48:13,223 --> 00:48:17,263
Speaker 7: is the system and this one and we've had, you know, like,

952
00:48:17,384 --> 00:48:19,184
Speaker 7: let's not pretend America has never had corruption.

953
00:48:19,263 --> 00:48:20,663
Speaker 2: I just read the Ulysses S.

954
00:48:20,703 --> 00:48:24,303
Speaker 7: Grant biography, and even though it makes a strong case

955
00:48:24,344 --> 00:48:28,304
Speaker 7: that Grant himself was not corrupt, his administration was wildly corrupt.

956
00:48:28,384 --> 00:48:31,984
Speaker 7: But this is just such a crystal clear case of Okay,

957
00:48:32,263 --> 00:48:34,944
Speaker 7: we're not like nobody's it's just out in the open,

958
00:48:35,024 --> 00:48:36,303
Speaker 7: like we know what's going on.

959
00:48:36,504 --> 00:48:40,064
Speaker 2: We know in the fact that Trump won't say definitively,

960
00:48:40,623 --> 00:48:43,663
Speaker 2: I will not pardon her, right, He's like, yeah, let

961
00:48:43,703 --> 00:48:45,423
Speaker 2: me think about it, which is but.

962
00:48:45,743 --> 00:48:47,823
Speaker 7: A yeah, no, John, My understanding is the way you

963
00:48:47,944 --> 00:48:51,384
Speaker 7: use compromont is you don't call up and say, hey, John,

964
00:48:51,904 --> 00:48:52,903
Speaker 7: you did these things.

965
00:48:52,904 --> 00:48:53,624
Speaker 2: Here's a video.

966
00:48:53,984 --> 00:48:57,064
Speaker 7: You say, hey, you had a really fun time in

967
00:48:57,104 --> 00:49:00,464
Speaker 7: that weekend in Miami that was really wild. Hey, by

968
00:49:00,504 --> 00:49:01,944
Speaker 7: the way, I got this friend of mine who was

969
00:49:01,984 --> 00:49:03,704
Speaker 7: trying to do some business.

970
00:49:03,743 --> 00:49:05,104
Speaker 2: I'd love it if you would talk to him.

971
00:49:05,623 --> 00:49:07,623
Speaker 3: What you're doing is you're fishing for a compliment on

972
00:49:07,703 --> 00:49:11,423
Speaker 3: your article in The New York Yes, which I've said

973
00:49:11,504 --> 00:49:14,944
Speaker 3: is an excellent, I think description of how the Russians

974
00:49:15,024 --> 00:49:18,024
Speaker 3: use compromise that if Trump is part of that process,

975
00:49:18,183 --> 00:49:19,663
Speaker 3: this would be the way that it's done.

976
00:49:19,824 --> 00:49:23,024
Speaker 7: And that means like Epstein or whomever is not calling

977
00:49:23,424 --> 00:49:25,544
Speaker 7: someone and saying, hey, if you don't do this, it'll

978
00:49:25,584 --> 00:49:26,864
Speaker 7: be this right, it's.

979
00:49:27,104 --> 00:49:31,544
Speaker 3: Right, and it's more like, yeah, organized criminals befriend and talking.

980
00:49:31,663 --> 00:49:34,504
Speaker 3: So like, once you know that you bring someone into

981
00:49:34,504 --> 00:49:37,143
Speaker 3: complicity in some way or another, then you know there's

982
00:49:37,263 --> 00:49:41,263
Speaker 3: everybody sort of dirty, and everybody then doesn't know what

983
00:49:41,304 --> 00:49:42,823
Speaker 3: they have on you. You don't know what he has

984
00:49:42,824 --> 00:49:46,024
Speaker 3: on me, but you know there's dirt out there, and

985
00:49:46,064 --> 00:49:48,823
Speaker 3: so it's better to let the system play out than

986
00:49:48,864 --> 00:49:51,343
Speaker 3: to ever attack anyone because you don't know what they

987
00:49:51,344 --> 00:49:53,383
Speaker 3: have on you that could be used against you and

988
00:49:53,743 --> 00:49:56,544
Speaker 3: can be incredibly subtle. So like, once you've done things

989
00:49:56,544 --> 00:49:59,143
Speaker 3: that essentially you know are wrong, you don't want to

990
00:49:59,143 --> 00:50:03,143
Speaker 3: come out. You're now part of that system, and you

991
00:50:03,183 --> 00:50:04,984
Speaker 3: want to maintain the system's stability.

992
00:50:04,984 --> 00:50:06,663
Speaker 7: You don't want to almost suggest, you know, how bad

993
00:50:07,344 --> 00:50:08,984
Speaker 7: lead a decent life, and.

994
00:50:10,743 --> 00:50:12,823
Speaker 3: It would be an easier way to do things. But

995
00:50:12,944 --> 00:50:15,903
Speaker 3: the desire for money and fame and girls and those

996
00:50:15,984 --> 00:50:18,743
Speaker 3: kind of things. It's easy, but you can see Donald

997
00:50:18,783 --> 00:50:22,104
Speaker 3: Trump does it almost instinctly. I remember his head of

998
00:50:22,183 --> 00:50:25,943
Speaker 3: DHS in his first term. He contacted her and said

999
00:50:25,944 --> 00:50:28,544
Speaker 3: that she had to go publicly in front of to public,

1000
00:50:28,703 --> 00:50:31,783
Speaker 3: give a speech and say something that he knew was

1001
00:50:31,824 --> 00:50:34,184
Speaker 3: a lie, she knew was a lie and was wrong,

1002
00:50:34,464 --> 00:50:37,104
Speaker 3: or she was going to be fired, and she did so.

1003
00:50:37,183 --> 00:50:40,904
Speaker 3: Now that you've got a powerful person doing something illegal

1004
00:50:40,984 --> 00:50:46,024
Speaker 3: or at least unethical for you, they're yeah, they're corrupt,

1005
00:50:46,064 --> 00:50:48,423
Speaker 3: they're part of the complicit, and you know, you sort

1006
00:50:48,424 --> 00:50:50,224
Speaker 3: of have them somewhat, so you don't need to really

1007
00:50:50,703 --> 00:50:51,263
Speaker 3: threaten them.

1008
00:50:51,504 --> 00:50:56,064
Speaker 2: And it's straight on that hece the US population become

1009
00:50:56,104 --> 00:50:58,544
Speaker 2: part of this. So I wasn't paying attention to the

1010
00:50:58,584 --> 00:51:03,263
Speaker 2: Epstein files, right, the eterstinct scandal, conspiracy theories. I didn't

1011
00:51:03,263 --> 00:51:06,504
Speaker 2: really pay attention. We were overseas, right well, but the

1012
00:51:06,663 --> 00:51:08,984
Speaker 2: right was where this was. This was the Republicans. We're

1013
00:51:09,024 --> 00:51:11,383
Speaker 2: going to get Bill Clinton, you know, let it all out,

1014
00:51:12,104 --> 00:51:15,064
Speaker 2: and then you know, people like I supposed to, you know, Charlie,

1015
00:51:15,424 --> 00:51:17,424
Speaker 2: some guy named Charlie right is like, no, no, the

1016
00:51:17,464 --> 00:51:20,143
Speaker 2: Epstein File's got to come out. And then suddenly, like

1017
00:51:20,183 --> 00:51:22,143
Speaker 2: a few telephone calls are made it's like, yeah, no,

1018
00:51:22,183 --> 00:51:25,143
Speaker 2: the Epstein stuff's over, it's gone, it's over with. And

1019
00:51:25,223 --> 00:51:27,944
Speaker 2: yet this is where I wonder about the cult status

1020
00:51:27,984 --> 00:51:33,183
Speaker 2: of American political parties. It's like, yes, Epstein is incredibly important,

1021
00:51:33,304 --> 00:51:34,783
Speaker 2: we need to get to the bottom of it. And

1022
00:51:34,824 --> 00:51:38,743
Speaker 2: then within days Epstein's over. We were never interested, right,

1023
00:51:38,824 --> 00:51:41,984
Speaker 2: Not everybody's gone with that, but but millions of people

1024
00:51:42,104 --> 00:51:45,384
Speaker 2: have been, and whole media outlets have just basically overnight

1025
00:51:45,504 --> 00:51:48,623
Speaker 2: switched gears and people have buy and large gone with it.

1026
00:51:48,663 --> 00:51:49,944
Speaker 3: But I think this is one of those ones that

1027
00:51:49,984 --> 00:51:51,143
Speaker 3: still has public traction.

1028
00:51:51,424 --> 00:51:54,383
Speaker 7: Well, I really want it out because I think that

1029
00:51:54,703 --> 00:51:59,024
Speaker 7: you should suffer for being part of a terrible sex

1030
00:51:59,384 --> 00:52:02,224
Speaker 7: trafficking ring of underage carls. That's a view I have.

1031
00:52:02,783 --> 00:52:05,423
Speaker 3: And shame should be enough in our society. You don't

1032
00:52:05,424 --> 00:52:08,343
Speaker 3: need to be legally charged and thrown in jail if

1033
00:52:08,384 --> 00:52:11,863
Speaker 3: you do something that's wrong, unethical, and illegal, even if

1034
00:52:11,864 --> 00:52:12,944
Speaker 3: you haven't been charged.

1035
00:52:13,703 --> 00:52:15,223
Speaker 2: And I want to say a good word for Tom

1036
00:52:15,223 --> 00:52:19,024
Speaker 2: Holman here I do. I mean the fact that he

1037
00:52:19,104 --> 00:52:22,663
Speaker 2: accepted fifty thousand dollars according to the press, a US

1038
00:52:22,783 --> 00:52:25,584
Speaker 2: takes pair of money in a peg. That doesn't mean

1039
00:52:25,623 --> 00:52:29,024
Speaker 2: he's corrupt because he wasn't convinced, he wasn't coffected exactly.

1040
00:52:29,183 --> 00:52:32,704
Speaker 3: Yeah, it means he's totally clean. You're either clean or dirty.

1041
00:52:32,743 --> 00:52:36,424
Speaker 3: There's no I want to say your Adam. Your article

1042
00:52:36,464 --> 00:52:38,703
Speaker 3: is called a Theory of Trump compromont and it was

1043
00:52:38,783 --> 00:52:41,703
Speaker 3: July twenty eighteen in New Yorker. So it's worth reading

1044
00:52:41,743 --> 00:52:43,104
Speaker 3: to give a sense for this idea.

1045
00:52:43,464 --> 00:52:46,104
Speaker 7: And if I remember correctly, that was the article that

1046
00:52:46,143 --> 00:52:48,263
Speaker 7: got everybody to be like, oh my goodness, we've been

1047
00:52:48,304 --> 00:52:50,783
Speaker 7: heading down a bad path. And ever since then, America's

1048
00:52:50,824 --> 00:52:54,584
Speaker 7: been it's been totally fine. Like that, you know, I

1049
00:52:54,623 --> 00:52:57,383
Speaker 7: will say a lot of that reporting I did, and

1050
00:52:57,424 --> 00:53:02,584
Speaker 7: then the Jeffrey Epstein thing. I'm still wrestling with how

1051
00:53:02,623 --> 00:53:07,783
Speaker 7: I feel about the limits of journalism. Like it's it

1052
00:53:08,424 --> 00:53:13,183
Speaker 7: really is a life altering experience, all right.

1053
00:53:13,504 --> 00:53:18,544
Speaker 2: Fun talk.

1054
00:53:27,663 --> 00:53:32,703
Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'sha, John Cipher,

1055
00:53:33,024 --> 00:53:34,344
Speaker 8: and Jonathan Stern.

1056
00:53:34,504 --> 00:53:36,864
Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

1057
00:53:37,104 --> 00:53:40,903
Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and Abominable

1058
00:53:40,944 --> 00:53:42,903
Speaker 8: Pictures for iHeart Podcasts.