WEBVTT - Moral Bioenhancements Part Two 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.280 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:14.680 Forward Thinking. Hey there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.000 podcast that looks at the future and says, am I 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:21.000 right or am I wrong? I'm Jonathan Strickland and I'm 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.080 Joe McCormick, and today we're going to be continuing our 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:27.280 conversation on moral bio enhancements. This is going to be 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:29.840 part two of a two part series. So if you 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.680 haven't heard the first episode, you should go back listen 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:34.560 to that one first, so you know what we're talking 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:38.760 about in this one. And without further ado, here begins 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:43.280 episode the second. So the whole concept of moral bio 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:47.760 enhancement has lots and lots and lots of problems, some 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.199 of which we kind of touched on either through our 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.640 tone or content so far. Yeah, and well, and I 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.360 want to give a shout out real quick to a 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.640 really great review of the literature on moral bio enhancements 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:04.240 that I was reading by Jonas Specker and colleagues called 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.959 The Ethical Desirability of Moral bio Enhancement a review of 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.680 reason and and a lot of a lot of the 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.280 things that I'm saying are are things that that that 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:17.200 that Specker in our colleagues, um pulled, pulled together from 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:21.480 just tons and tons and tons of of amazing thinkers 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.600 on the subject. So just wanted to put that out there. 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.760 Go read that paper if you'd like, a very very 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:32.759 theramic breakdown, but big problems. Yeah, who who decides what's moral? 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.160 That's a big one. Yeah, who who's the moral authority? 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:39.640 I don't feel like I'm qualified. Well, I mean, I'll 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.000 stop up. So I understand that as a concern, But 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.920 I also think that this is the same problem we 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:51.360 already face in our moral decision today. So you've got 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:54.040 to make moral decisions in your life, and you're either 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:59.000 trying to think through ethical reasoning yourself and consider consequences 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.960 and trying to make moral decisions on your own, or 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:04.600 maybe in a lot of cases, you're sort of offloading 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:06.920 some of that thinking. Two people you would consider a 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.280 moral authority share like like a like a religion that 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:13.360 you abscribe to, a subscribe a word, let's say it 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.560 is um or or or or or like like like 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.240 the theory of objectivism, like like some kind of theory 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.800 like that sure, or even just to a person. I mean, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.639 there are people who live among us that we often 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.640 think of as kind of moral genius. Mr Rogers would 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.079 have been a moral authority. Yeah. You look at somebody 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.799 and say, I think that person knows what's up when 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.760 when it comes to how we should act, and I'll 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:39.120 follow their lead because it sounds like they know they 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.320 know what they're talking about. So we already do this. 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:44.840 We either make moral decisions on our own or we 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.040 defer to a moral authority. So so we're already faced 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.040 with the problem of who decides what is and isn't moral. 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.000 This would just be adding on another step to that. 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.760 Do you also have a device or therapy further guiding 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.720 you toward that conclusion? Yeah? And and right now, even 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.440 if you have an authority who is proclaiming what is 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.680 and isn't moral, every individual has the freedom to agree 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.080 or disagree with that and to act upon that in 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.960 whatever way he or she sees fit. So in some 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:21.360 cases there might be like consequences. Absolutely, there could be. 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.280 There could be very severe consequences, and that would probably 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.600 prevent the vast majority of people from acting out on 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.320 those thoughts, even if they held them right. Uh, some 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.680 people might still act out on them and then suffer 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:38.360 those consequences. That history is filled with those stories. Every 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:42.000 story that involves the word martyr probably has some element 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:45.400 of that in it, right. Uh. In some cases you 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.120 might agree with the person who is labeled as martyr. 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.600 In some cases you might not. But in either case 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:55.240 it's someone who's who whose stance is very different from 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.400 that of the authority figure. The case with moral bio 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.800 enhancements is you would have no choice but to agree 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.120 with whatever the authority figure had determined as moral, because 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:10.280 the bio enhancement is mandating, is making that decision for you? Right? Well, 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.320 so that's a different question entirely than I would say, 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.640 because there we're talking about whether we could or should 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:21.120 force other people to undergo moral enhancement. Is that not 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.599 inherently immoral? I don't know that's a good question. I mean, 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.880 so I was considering people who would willingly choose to 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.120 undergo a moral enhancement. So imagine you could you could 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.520 elect for a free surgery that would make you a 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.200 better person. Would you do it? I think the problem 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.600 is that the people who would elect for that are 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:43.240 the ones that we least need to undergo the procedure. Well, 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:45.200 we could all be better. I mean, I I think 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.279 a lot of us, we're familiar with this, we wish 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.080 we were better people in a way. I know I 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.200 wish I was a person. There are times when I 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.640 think about how I could be a better guy than 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:56.560 I am, and I'm like, oh, man, like I let 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:58.719 my friends down, and I wish that I hadn't done that. 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:00.800 And I agree with that. And I think the people 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:04.080 that when when you start talking about moral bio enhancements 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.680 and you start envisioning the sort of problems that it's 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:12.159 meant to correct, the people who are perhaps the most 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:16.800 accountable foresaid problems seem to be the least likely to 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.479 elect to undergo a procedure. They might say, I don't 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.080 have a problem. I'm find how I am exactly you're 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.080 everyone else has the problem. I'm sitting pretty, and like, well, 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.600 the reason you're sitting pretty is because of the oppression 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:33.520 you're you're dealing out to everyone else. Well, I mean, see, 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.960 that's the I would argue. I don't think, first of all, 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.400 I don't think moral bio enhancements being mandated being a 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.719 a compelled thing everyone has to have it. I don't 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:45.880 think that's a great idea. However, I think that's the 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.680 only way it would work. Like I don't. I don't 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:54.320 think moral bio enhancements are a good idea generally speaking, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.279 in that I think there are too many problems that 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.479 over out that out way the benefits, uh And the 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.920 benefits only exist if it works the way we want 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:10.279 it to work, as opposed to some perversion of that vision. Well, 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:11.960 I feel like we're getting there a little ahead of 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:14.279 ourselves here then, because we we should talk more about 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.839 what these problems are sure. Uh well, I mean, one, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.120 we've kind of identified the idea that you have to 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.440 have to follow a moral authorities vision of what is 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.640 no isn'm moral And it may be that your own 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.919 view of morality doesn't match up to that person's morality. 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.680 It maybe the morality our sense of morality changes over time. 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:40.840 Uh yeah. Well, the theories like like relativism say that 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:45.440 that morality is is an inherently personal thing, that that 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.080 that that you know, my morality cannot be your morality Joe, 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.440 and that that neither of our morality is going to 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.160 be nulls or Jonathan's um, I mean, and on on 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.800 a society wide thing. That's that's definitely a question you've 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.080 also got um, you've all so got uh moral pluralism, 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:06.120 which which says that that some aspects of morality are 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.760 are going to counter themselves. That if you're acting completely 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.120 morally in one way, it's a trolley problem essentially, Um 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.720 that that you're you're never because of the way that 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.520 the world works, You're you're never going to make a 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.320 perfect decision. Right. There's not there's not a black and 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.600 white binary world out there where everything is either moral 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:30.280 or not moral. There are issues where you are you 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:34.160 might be faced with a complicated problem that has no 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.320 good solution, but you still have to make a decision. 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.320 And and that becomes problematic in a world where you say, well, 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:45.120 we've got a procedure that's going to force people to 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.360 act in a quote unquote moral way, because that means 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:49.880 someone has to make that either someone has to make 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.360 that uh decision ahead of time about what is the 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:59.280 moral outcome of those decisions or whatever guiding factors push 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.840 you to one choice over another. And then, like you said, 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.440 you've you've got the problem of of what if our 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:11.000 ideas about morality change over time, because they do continually. Uh, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.200 it's it's I'm sure, I'm positive that what was considered 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.760 good and moral six years ago is not the exact 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.720 same thing that we consider today, and that's that's that's 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.640 a long term kind of concept of like if these 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.400 if these changes, if if these treatments are irreversible, then 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.079 who makes who makes the decision to start changing them 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.880 down the line as as needed? Well, I mean, yes, 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.080 I think that's an interesting thing to consider, But I 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.600 also think that sort of falls into the same thing 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.160 I was talking about earlier, where this is already a 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:48.240 problem we're faced with just having moral brains. So we 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.240 have moral faculties that are informed by our sort of 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.640 natural predispositions with whatever genetic element there is, and then 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.880 also by our education and socialization which happened at certain 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.720 periods in time, and we get sort of moral rules 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.680 implanted in us. You can see this in changes between 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.640 generations where the older generation has been taught a certain 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.319 thing about what's moral, and then you know their kids 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.160 might not agree with them about that. Uh So, in 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.480 a way, I'd say this is also already a thing 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:22.240 that we face. We're talking again just about adding coercion. Well, 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.200 except that I would argue a person can also come 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:30.720 to the conclusion like they can change their right, they 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.840 can change their view, and so could a bio enhancement. 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.920 I mean it depending upon the implementation. Yeah, and and 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:42.680 depending upon the the desires of whomever whatever entity is 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:48.600 actually administering them. Right, So it gets more complicated. It's 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:50.600 not like it's something that would be decided on an 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.680 individual basis, or at least not the individual who's actually 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.440 having the experience. It would be decided upon from an 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.880 authoritative perspective. Right, So could you have the country of 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:06.839 vote on everybody's brain should be forced to think for 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.079 the bio enhancements are. Because once the bio enhancements are 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.079 and then you have the question. It's almost like our 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.120 our discussion on e voting. How do you know that 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:19.160 the the true desires of the person are being reflected 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.600 in the outcome? Yeah? Well, well here's another problem. This 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:27.800 is hypothetical. What would it actually be possible? We sort 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.320 of talked about this earlier, But I think is it 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.080 possible from a technological point of view to have something 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.520 like this? And I think the answer could be both 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.240 yes and no, as in, we know there's a brain 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.440 basis for morality that you can tamper with it with 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:46.079 electrodes or drugs, things like that. But morality also appears 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.760 to be this complex cross brain region phenomenon, meaning we 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.240 can't yet foresee a way to control outcomes with precision, 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.480 and the question is could we ever do that? Uh? 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.800 For for example, with with saratonin, seratonin is just let's 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:04.120 all chill out brain chemical. It also has a hand 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.400 in how we sleep, our memory and coding and recall, 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.760 our sexual behavior and performance, how we process pain, our appetite, 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.640 how we process visual information. It has a hand in 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:18.439 all of these. And so, uh, just like tossing SSR 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:22.319 eyes at the entire population wouldn't really be moral. It's 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:23.920 a it's a new kid for more of it kind 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.840 of option, right, Yeah, and it's really too bad that 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.880 we aren't like the crusty doll in that Treehouse of Horrors. 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:37.360 Oh here's the problem. Yeah. Um, but see that that 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.600 brings up another thing that we'll talk about in a minute. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.840 What is the crusty dolls life like after he gets 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.160 switched to nice? It's not good, isn't. No. He lives 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.439 a life of humble subservience. But anyway, so we'll get 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:52.920 to that in a minute. But another practical problem I 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:54.559 want to point out is Okay, so we've got this 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.880 problem with precision in the brain. We don't know exactly 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.160 where to put the micro electrodes to make you stop 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:06.160 kicking small children. Um Man, I don't hope they never do. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.719 So we could study this to try to figure it out. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.960 But scientific ethics make it difficult to conduct experiments like 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:17.720 this because, okay, so imagine you're trying to get institutional 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:23.520 approval to perform brain surgery or introduce psychoactive drug regimens 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:26.280 on people in order to see what makes them spend 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.200 less time leaving jerky YouTube comments. That just seems like 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.840 you're going to run into experimental ethics problems. That's what 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.920 college students are for. Just elect to go and be 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.520 a subject in one of those testing procedures and they 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.320 get like twenty bucks at the end of it and 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.920 everything's fine. Or even even if you took a population 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:52.240 of of of criminals, of people who had murdered people, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:56.080 you would still have really have a really hard time, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.600 rightfully so getting getting permission from from any kind of 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.560 uh good board of humans too to carry out these 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.960 kinds of experiments, because any time that you that you 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.640 do something to someone against their will when they are 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.520 when they technically do not have a disease like a 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.000 like a lack of moral virtue is not a disease. Yeah, 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.280 this is another problem because then you're going to have 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.199 a conflict between the ethics of the experiment and scientific rigor. 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.040 Because ideally what you'd want is a randomized sample to 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.520 do your experiments on. You'd have a big problem if okay, 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.520 you say so too. In order to do this most ethically, 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.720 we'd have to have people who volunteered to want to 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:38.079 be a part of this experiment. But that would introduce 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.960 a self selection bias into the sample of people you're 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.360 performing it on, which is going to change the outcome. 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.040 Uh So, Yeah, there's all kinds of trouble in trying 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.760 to do experiments on this and and bringing up the 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:52.360 issue of you know, who do you who do you 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:57.280 perform these experiments on? Uh, it's not just an academic question. 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.040 I mean history is filled with examples of some very 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:08.719 ethically questionable, if not downright unethical, experimental projects that subjected 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:16.600 people without their knowledge. Two pretty intense and extreme experiments 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.600 you know, in the name of science, and justified in 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.800 some way or another at the time. But from today's perspective, 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.960 from our moral perspective today, we would say, yeah, that 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.600 is all kinds of wrong. So it is a very 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.400 tricky subject. Another complication I went to want to introduce, 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:42.000 what if moral cognition isn't as local as it once looked, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.640 or what if there is no such thing as moral cognition. 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.720 I'm not going to go into the whole argument, but there. 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:52.520 There's another paper in social neuroscience from called where in 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.920 the Brain is Morality Everywhere and Maybe Nowhere? By Leanne 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.960 Young and James Dungan. They answer the question in the title. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.520 You don't even have to read the rest of the paper. 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.600 Uh No, it's so uh. Essentially, they asked the questions 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.680 of is there really a uniquely moral part of the 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.840 brain or is this just a label we're applying to 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:17.040 aspects of the emotional brain and the social brain and uh, 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:18.720 And so they look for it and they say, yeah, 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.400 there are some regions that have been implicated, like some 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.160 of the stuff we talked about earlier, think of intermedial 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:28.080 prefrontal cortex and stuff like that. But it's also just 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:32.760 a very complicated picture, and nobody's identified this moral brain 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:39.920 substrate there's nothing there. Um, so we may be there 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:41.960 may be some folly in our approach here. If we're 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.240 looking for where is the moral brain? There might not 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.200 be a moral brain. Morality might be more like an 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:53.000 emergent behavioral phenomenon that we're describing that comes from some 0:15:53.160 --> 0:16:00.400 emotions and some social tendencies. And we don't know if 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.640 in fact that turns out to be the case. That 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.880 makes it even more complicated to come up with a 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:10.040 moral bio enhancement that would actually be effective, right, because 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.880 then what you'd actually have to be modifying is you 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.080 can't pinpoint morality in the brain. You'd have to be 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:19.600 modifying emotions brain. And now you're really like, if you 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.640 weren't already getting people a little squeaky about the idea 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.600 of of tweaking morality tweaking emotions, then you're thinking, wow, 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:32.240 it sounds like, uh, you know, you're you're creating just 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.920 a little dial on me that has a very narrow 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.880 spectrum of the human experience experience and everything else is 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.760 off limits. Yeah, And this this actually I would say 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.680 that this conundrum is something we might expect from what 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.760 we've already seen with the overlap between moral behavior and 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.440 like SSR eyes which do mess with emotions. Uh. So 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:54.320 here's one more complication. I want to introduce technologically, the 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.960 plastic and adaptive adult brain. This is the thing we've 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:00.680 discovered is that the adult brain is more were adaptable 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.159 than we thought, and which is wonderful. Yeah. So there 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:08.399 are examples of the adult brain adapting to problems. Forms 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.119 of neural injury can, for example, be offset by ad 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.720 hoc adaptations using the rest of the brain. One example 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.359 is people with memory loss coming up with cognitive strategies 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.200 to offset memory deficit. Yeah. It's kind of like if 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.359 you work in a really small office and everyone has 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.480 a very specific job, and someone has to call out 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:29.439 sick at the last minute, and then everyone else has 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.560 to figure out, how can we continue to do our 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.480 work plus carry the load of this person who is 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.880 not there, even though they specialize in something that we 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.760 do not ourselves typically handle. Right, And you might not 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.119 be able to exactly cover that person's duties, but you 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.520 can sort of do it. Uh. And another one would 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.399 be since lost, people who have lost one sense like 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:59.360 site can sometimes compensate with adapted cognition based on different senses. Uh. Daredevil, Right, 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:00.720 I was just going to say the same thing that 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.480 I decided I've been too geeky for this episode soiled back. 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.639 But here's the question I thought about. What if we 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.440 apply this to moral bio enhancement. So you go in 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.880 and you do the equivalent, the positive equivalent of applying 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.639 a brain lesion that introduces modified sociopathy. You put in 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.919 some kind of modification that makes people very nice to 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.040 each other. Other parts of your brain are still going 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.040 to want to be selfish. So what if your brain 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.960 adapts to the change and finds a way to circumvent 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:35.480 it and revert to baseline jerky nous. Yeah, life finds 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.640 a way and this yeah, jerk faces find a way. Yes, 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.000 in this case were it's not that even the person 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.640 in question is making a conscious effort to be selfish. 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.919 It's the brain itself is adapting to these changes and 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.800 saying this is not the way things are supposed to work. 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.840 So other parts of the brains start behaving in a 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.560 slightly different way in order to kind of get us 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:05.000 close to that previous condition before moral bio enhancement as 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.720 you possibly can get. One of the other arguments that 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.399 I saw was, um, should we should we really be 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:17.280 just concentrating on treating actual mental disorders before we go 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:20.600 like whole hog on something that isn't a disorder, like 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:24.640 like moral disorders. Right. And then my response to this 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.280 is that the problem with that line of questioning is 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:30.760 it starts to argue for a zero some kind of 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.960 perspective on the subject, saying that if you focus on one, 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.840 you cannot by necessity focus on another. And my argument 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.000 would be that you could certainly have these areas of 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:48.240 research all working, perhaps even in parallel, cooperatively with one another. Uh. 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.399 And but it is it is a good question if 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:53.800 you could say, like, well, we have some very real 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:56.720 problems that we do not understand how to tackle in 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.760 a way that is beyond just treating some symptoms. Why 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.320 are we worried about something for people who have quote 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:09.200 unquote healthy brains. Uh? Shouldn't we focus on the people 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.960 who are really struggling with these diseases injuries, disorders and 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.000 worry about that. First, Jonathan, I think I agree with 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:21.920 your first criticism. I mean, I am wary of this 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:25.240 type of question in general. That's just like, well what 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.680 about uh, you know, what about is m of like 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:34.880 there's another problem though, Uh so to remove the first problem, 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.160 problems can exist at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.440 So I think that this is a good question if 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:46.120 you can point to factors that make it clear that 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.120 we really are going to need to choose between one 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:51.919 or the other. But if you can't point to factors 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:53.960 that make it clear that it's one or the other, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:59.760 then I don't think this question, uh necessarily matters. Well, 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:04.000 how on another one then sure? Okay, in a world 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:10.000 where some people are artificially moral, would would the regular 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.240 people take advantage of them? Yes? I think so absolutely. 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.000 If you know that every time you come by your 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.560 neighbor's house and say, hey, can I borrow twenty bucks, 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.240 they're going to say yes. There are gonna be a 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:24.399 lot of people banging on that neighbor's door until that 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.040 neighbor doesn't have any twenty dollar bills left, which which 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.320 brings us back to uh, something that we that we 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:33.520 covered earlier in the show. Where where could regular people 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.000 be allowed to exist in a world where anyone has 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.720 this this altruistic treatment. So we wouldn't just be getting 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.600 rid of murderers, we'd be getting rid of people who 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:47.080 just you know, want to have basic uh, non harmful, 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:50.199 pleasure driven lives. Right. Yeah, let's let's say we've got 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:55.400 let's say we've got someone middle class hedonism. Yeah, hedonism. 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:58.800 We don't even need the hedonism part. But sure, let's 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:01.240 say let's just say, let's take it. Uh, let's make 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:07.119 a hypothetical person. And this person leads uh, you know, 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:10.680 typical life. They've got work, they've got some outside interests. 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.440 More or less, they keep to themselves. They don't really 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:17.360 socialize with their neighbors. They don't know their neighbors names 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.960 or anything. They're not mean to their neighbors, they aren't 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.240 thoughtless towards them, but they don't go out their way 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:28.440 to know them either. Sure, but they really love uh 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:33.520 spawn camping in in an online shooter game. Sure, it's 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.640 just it's just how it's how they release their tension. Right, 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:41.200 it's a legitimate strategy, I'll remind you. But it's yes, 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:46.280 so they will take advantage of something that is not 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.640 explicitly against the rules. So therefore they're not really doing 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:52.760 anything wrong, although their pleasure is coming at the expense 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.880 of other people's enjoyment. Or even even if you want 0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:58.760 to take that away, let's just say that they happen 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:01.240 to notice that a name or is having a hard 0:23:01.280 --> 0:23:04.760 time for whatever reason, but they don't feel any need 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.880 to help. They're not making it worse, they're not judging 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.440 the neighbor. They're just not helping. You could argue, well, 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:17.600 this approach would mean that people would feel better about 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:19.760 going out and helping others. It's not even that they 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:24.320 are taking advantage of other people. It's that they are 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:28.160 not ignoring them. They're not They're not discounting someone else's 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.480 misfortune or doing something like in like in this spawn 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:35.760 camping example, that that's that's earnestly harmless, like the grand 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.880 scheme of the right. It is irritating as all get out. 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:41.920